#genuinely asking because again. i have not seen dabb era.

[monstermoviedean]

question. if we dropped sera gamble into dabb era and had her run the dean + jack relationship arc. would it be better?

[incarnateirony]

Hey min, I just read your last post and I was wondering you could do one on the meta-narrative hostility (that most of fandom calls queer coding) of pre-dabb era? I’m a young queer who’s new to all this and doesn’t have the same experience or knowledge as older queer people (obviously) when it comes to these things. Only if you want to/and are able to though, it’s something I’d really like to read and educate myself on, thanks :)

Sure! I’ll get on that, I think @curioussubjects and I held a brief discourse over that recently, but I’m sure we could get into it deeper. I may even try to peel @thecoffeebrain-blog out of her fandom ban to talk about it too. Unfortunately it’s like 2something AM right now and I do not have the brain function to write up a whole-assed thesis on it.

But in short (which will probably still be about a page long)? I kind of want to flip a table any time I read “Dean Winchester has always been written as bisexual.” – and like. I even have friends that say that. Friends I adore. And I still want to flip tables. Because. Like. No.

Yes, Dean Winchester was based on a repressed bisexual, Dean Moriarty. The thing is knowing that about Dean Moriarty requires reading the late release manuscript, not the original. In, perhaps, an ironic statement on our current show, the widely spread original version was sanitized of queer content. But if anyone thinks Kripke was, back in S1-5, trying to make some sort of statement about repressed and sanitized queer culture, I really don’t know what to tell them beyond like. No? 

I’d need to go digging – hence not having the time right now – for a full list of early season “bi Dean” moments. A great deal of them are actively homophobic as fuck things, like in Playthings taking a shot at Dean being butch over overcompensating, or whatever else. They used the statements as an insult, something to target, and aggress, and make a joke at a character’s expense – because being gay was immasculating and funny, haha, right?

Others included things like clothing choices, food choices, or other things that like… fandom swore up and down was queer coding and like– again– generally, no? Hopefully I don’t have to explain why in most scenarios those things are problematic.

Like you’ve seen me bang on about the menthols thing for example as queer coding – and yes! It is! Because that’s actually a queer culture thing. And like, ask any gay dude, literally, if he sees another, WHITE dude pull out a pack of menthols he knows who he’s going to try to flirt up tonight. There’s all kinds of reasons that was genuine coding written from a gay man that’s even a recovered smoker to the point his colleagues made light of it. Hell of an introduction, hell of a point, and something actually relevant to the represented demographic’s culture. (this actually does not apply the same to other ethnicities, it literally only applies to white dudes, and I could stat out the very real reasons about it some time, but not in this post)

We gays DO have our own language. As my friend Kris put it, “Whenever I see a woman has a purse I give up, cuz she’s either straight or at least in that ballpark where I’m gonna have to be the husband and hahahaha no.” – unshockingly, I don’t have a purse either. My wife does. I on the other hand am fine with being metaphorical husband role. She’s a femme, I’m not, it tracks.

But someone wearing a certain color, or eating a burrito is not a judge. Someone choking on a sausage for a punch line alongside a taco is– questionable on if even intended but again, guess what, a punch line at the receiving character’s expense.

A great WEALTH of early “bi Dean” moments are like this, even if we remove Destiel. And it’s a MESS. I give some leans of “not offensive but surrounded by enough offensive content in its immediate era that I don’t give it good faith” to moments like Dr Sexy. Sure. Those lay good potential groundwork.

Are there moments where Dean turned and looked at someone in a WAY? Yeah, sure. Was that scripted? Uh, generally no. Let’s face it. Jensen could have chemistry with a decommissioned droid if they were put on screen together.

Now, do those moments, that last section there – give early room for bi Dean being evolved into? Yes. Those moments do. Because evolving with chemistry and story is part of how it works. It’s the other shit we need to flush to the pits of hell, bathe in some glitter and chant some YMCAs to cleanse ourselves from or some shit.

Hell, let’s even look at season 7 with Dean flirting with the guard. Despite bobbing and weaving around most old bi Dean content for being flagrantly offensive when I made my Coming Out video, I kept that one. But even THAT runs a line. Why? Because Sam, later painted as an educated ally, starts laughing at Dean at the sheer idea of Dean doing it. Dean tells him to shut up which blows Charlie’s cover. Is that something actual bi people might have to deal with? Sure. Hence my choice to be willing to include the clip. But it was still. A punchline. At the queer content’s expense.

If you go and re-watch, I’d say, S1-7 and stop trying the “DIG FOR PROOF IN RETROSPECT TO PROVE DEAN HAS ALWAYS BEEN BI” dance, and watch – really, REALLY watch – the way any kind of queer mention was handled. Is. Gross.

By season 8 Carver seemed to be dabbling in it – enough that Phil Sgriccia and Ben Edlund, exec producers, started leaving commentary on the season 8 DVD, such as how Jensen played it, and the potential it created for love in all places, that he and Aaron could have had a life together. Still, Carver had a LOT of shit he was fixing from holding Gamble’s burning bag. And yeah, Gamble queerbaited. She fucked over a demographic, realized the demographic she picked was wrong, tried to bait back that demographic without intent to follow through on it, then was gone. (And hell, go look at The Magicians now and her Dances With Avoiding Calling Her Characters LGBT).

Season 8 was a tipping point. Did Aaron slap down the idea of having a moment with Dean? Sure. But… guess what? It was Dean being offended by not having a moment. Not Dean being offended being accused of having a moment. This is a very subtle tone change.

Watch forward after that. There might have been a few moments. But it wasn’t until S9 they onboarded a new LGBT author. An open one. An activist. And yeah, menthols and “play it like a jilted lover” showrunner directions began. It’s like looking back, they had the idea and realized what was taking shape, but didn’t know what to do with it. And Bobo was still the new kid on block that year. That was the same year they almost made Metatron’s heaven for Castiel be covered in naked Dean pictures. Some people lament the loss of that. I do not. Because guess what. That made it a joke again. A shot at Castiel’s expense, if one more personal than the old shots. It was painted for absurdity, not authenticity. But, unlike prior eras… they had the sense to change that and paint the absurdity in other ways with dangly cheap hearts and other silliness.

Good.

As you look forward, from there, the question is after season 9– when was the last “LOL GAAAAAAAAAAAAY” joke you heard? When was the last time you heard it be framed in such a way that the audience was designated to laugh at the arrangement? Was Colette… framed as funny when Bobo wrote it? Was the heart connection… written as funny? Were the hunter husbands… written as a punch line or joke?

Sure, Lily Sunder had some funny bits, bit it’s not Funny Cuz It’s Gay, it’s funny and gay, and this is an important distinction. If that were a het couple bickering in the car that episode, we’d laugh all the same. This, also, written by a queer activist. Was the mixtape funny? No. In fact, if we’re to take, say, modern Dean and Cas as the central manifestation of the bi Dean narrative all these years later, their funny moments aren’t funny because of their gender. Their funny moments are funny because of who they are, like any given couple on TV, not in expense to their sexuality.

Even “attached at the everything” is more a fandom problem. There was no cue for that to be a laugh track. There was no recoil, no denial, no flinch, no nothing. It was just a barb of a demon in the know of the nature and depth of their bond needling where it hurt like any other relationship. It’s the fandom that chose to put a laugh track on it.

Beyond this though, I’d need to take the time to go and pick through the different individual moments and break them down and really pick apart WHY they were problematic in the old days. Hopefully this summary is a nice start.

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

Where it’s darkest

As largely expected and basically announced, we’ve entered the “darkest” hour before the dawn, which from a viewing experience means that it’s Super Suffering Time. Which we love, as Supernatural fans. Watch Supernatural they said, it’s gonna be fun they said. You’re gonna suffer, but you’re gonna be happy about it...

Anyway. I guess it says a lot about my investment in Nick’s character that when Dabb tweeted "where it’s darkest...” I’d completely forgotten that it was literally a quote by Nick from the scene where he picked Lucifer over his wife... and many of you did too, don’t lie, because everyone rightfully went back to 11x20/11x21 (which was all over the current narrative, obviously, down to the copy of the amulet...) but I haven’t seen anyone being like, ah yes that’s what Nick said :p

I have been saying that Dabb is writing his turn at the themes that the previous showrunners explored through the Leviathan and Amara, and now not only we have the Shadow narrative and Cas’ deal, but even Lucifer in his Empty form is visually reminiscent of the Leviathan (and the red eyes over black remind me of the monsters in Purgatory). (Remember, the Gamble era tackled the same themes of depression and identity issues as the following ones, but slightly more confusedly or maybe without the “what’s subtlety” of her successors... it’s not a coincidence we’re still answering the question the Gamble era asked in s6 - what’s a soul - and playing with metaphors around the color black, shapelessness and emptiness.)

So, this is another turn of the spiral that corresponds to the Leviathan arc: which means stripping the characters of everything, stripping the characters of what makes them the most genuine, healthy and strong versions of themselves, to rebuild them again. While I don’t think we’re going to see Dean, Sam and Cas truly stripped of everything (but they’re going to lose a lot - they already have started losing things - and their bonds are going to be tested...), because that’s not the turn of the spiral we’re at at this point, but the “extreme” version of that narrative is obviously on Jack, their ultimate mirror, who has been struggling with what makes him... him, and has maybe lost that very thing.

And of course this episode had heavy callbacks to the Amara storyline, and in fact we’ve been multiple callbacks to the last few episodes of season 11. The very character Donatello has been recently reminding us of the reason of his soullessness (he was “activated” in 11x21 and Amara consumed his soul in 11x22). God is back at full-force into the narrative, although not in person yet... and the last moment of the episode is reminiscent of the last moment of season 11 (and there’s also a cliffhanger similar to Sam being shot, if you want). In fact, it’s the antithesis of it: at the end of Alpha And Omega (beginning and end... ouroboros... and the spiral goes and goes) Dean asks “Mom?” as she is brought back to life. Now Jack asks “Mary?” as...

We’re in the turn of the spiral that corresponds to the last portion of season 11. Not surprisingly, because season 11 could have been the end, was the end of the narrative crafted by Carver and that simply was added new elements to make the spiral go again instead of letting it arrive at a conclusion.

But it’s also an antithesis of the Amara narrative, because that was about the anger of the suppressed feminine principle, and it concluded with the revival of the original woman who was sacrificed to make the story (the show and the story the characters have been living) happen. Now we have the most annoying character in the history of ever, Nick, who is (irritatingly but aptly) such a strong example of the worst masculinity, who chose Lucifer over a dead wife so reminiscent of Mary when she died. We have Lucifer, who represents exactly the same brand of toxic masculinity and toxic fatherhood, in the imagery of the shapeless black, instead of Amara.

We will see how Chuck fits in this narrative. But remember - I mean, me versus your mom? That’s... that’s not even a choice. The masculine, paternal principle gets put in the past. The father goes and the mother stays. I don’t know what Mary’s fate will be specifically, but what she represents is going to stay. What John represents - from paternal neglect to a normative model of family - goes.

[go-diane-winchester]

Why destiel shippers should not speak about destiel endgame?

@the-winchesters-ruined-my-life asked the following question.

Thank you for the ask.  A short while back, my prim and proper side, would have responded diplomatically that its a merely ship, an artistic platform, and therefore does not warrant any hate from most level headed people.  However, I have to realize that even art activates the tolerance threshold.  I used to read destiel slash out of curiosity.  There are many more like me who dipped their toes in the destiel cesspool, only to recoil in disgust when they realized that it was probably going to give them gangrene.  Destiel was a sweet little ship, once upon a time, until things dramatically changed for the worst.  Most people who ship destiel are extreme by design because that is how the meta writers designed their thinking.  Non heller fans contradict each other.  I don't see that with hellers.  Some upper echelon hellers says something and these fans just accept it without question.  Take for example, the following post, recently penned by @anti-anti-destiel, lamenting the impending end of SPN.

The first flaw, is the OP's name.  They are glitching the tags with a name like this.  Everything and everyone has an anti tag.  What makes destiel so special that it must never have an anti tag?  That is manipulative and delusional because nothing will disappear just because you wished it away.  People that are going to despise destiel are growing, whether OP sticks her head in the stand or not.   

Anyway, here is the post, which I edited where necessary and italicized.  My responses are in bold. 

....Season 15 will be the last, with another 20 episodes.

There has been talk about queerbaiting in the past, and whether or not SPN will go down in history as a show with a slow-burn queer romance, or whether it will be forever known as the most queerbaiting show in existence.

This is why non-destiel fans get infuriated.  If there are any ''good'' destiel fans out there, why don't they tell this entitled princess to stop ruining the reputation of a show that has genuinely made people happy?  SPNFamily is very ironic when you want to tear apart a show that gave made you smile for 14 seasons.  This alone makes me wonder if there are any ''good'' destiel shippers out there.  The other hot topic is that of queer baiting.  Notice how queer baiting is NOT up for debate.  I have seen the master list of ''proof'' that SPN is queer baiting.  The parallels, metaphors and prop analysis are extremely insulting to adult human intellect.  Performing Dean is perhaps the most biphobic concept I have ever come across.  There is a reason these meta writers don't want their head canon's discussed because they know that people with logic with wipe the floor with them.  I can almost picture Jensen bursting into laughter if he ever read that master list.  It is that nonsensical.  The meta writers claim they are being queer baited, and everyone believes it.  Nobody questions the writers.  Why? 

All the cards will be on the table in the writers’ room.

Dabb is destiel friendly.

Bobo is destiel friendly.

Davy is destiel friendly.

Steve is destiel friendly.

Meredith is destiel friendly. 

Buckner and Ross-leming are ???

Singer is ???

When a meta writer writes something like this, how come low level destielers don't ever question her?  Why not ask her:  if Dabb and gang are destiel friendly, then why is it that Cas didn't even get invited to 300th episode family dinner party?  They practically forgot about him.  BuckLeming are NOT destiel friendly, because Leming [along with Misha] claimed that an episode with a turning point was coming up.  Turns out there was no turning point.  Leming and Misha were just making a mockery out of the destiel fans.  Why is it that Leming was called out for that lie and NOT Misha? 

And why is it that the most important people in this equation are always left out?  Both Jensen and Jared have said time and again, that destiel is not part of SPN canon.  How come they get left out?  Do you think their opinion doesn't matter?  And if it doesn't, then why is that?  I would really like to know. 

Other numerous cast and crew are destiel friendly. And before someone starts, regardless of previous statements, Jensen is more friendly to the idea than you may think.

Why don't any of the destielers ask this meta writer HOW she knows that Jensen is friendly to destiel?  One fool told me that Jensen told her during a photo op that he was OK with destiel.  But yet he says on stage that destiel doesn't exist.  Now, why would he do that?  What makes these idiots think that Jensen is two-faced or spineless.  This meta writer said it, and everyone believed it.  Not a single person decided to cross-examine her regarding her claims.  Jensen doesn't like destiel.  He destroyed the only panel he shares with Misha.  I think getting death threats from hellers did it.  I don't blame him. 

Our main barrier is convincing Pedowitz and the Network Powers that be that it should happen.  Fandom has campaigned, tulpa’d, prayed, begged, etc. We will know by May, 2020, what the decision will be.

So she wants to rally a bunch of delinquents to annoy and aggravate TPTB.  And what fandom is she talking about.  There are many fans who HATE destiel, because of Jensen's death threats, as well as arson, kidnapping and vandalism threats.  Ordinary fans of SPN are fed up of destiel meta writers speaking up for every one of us.  The destiel fans are only a subsection of the overall fan base.  We would prefer if they didn't speak for us all.  Pedowitz has already acknowledged only J2 as the leads and TPTB has told them that the show will go for as long as they want.  So TPTB are acknowledging the leads opinions.  Neither of the actors are going to say yes to destiel. 

We have seen the hints in Dabb’s era, where it could go. He is ON BOARD, people. Whether you want to believe it or not. It’s so close to being fully textual canon. 

What did she see in the Dabb era?  Cas admiring Dean's looks?  No, he admired Sam's looks.  Dean telling Cas he loved him?  No, he said that to Sam.  Dabb is giving every other pairing its day in the sun, but not destiel.  Why is that?  I think it has something to do with the reputation destroying queer baiting accusation.  This person is fooling you in order to stay relevant.  I can tell you now, there are personal stakes involved in shipping.  In order to stay popular and relevant, meta writers will spin mile long yarns.  Meta writers are like a step up from a slash fic writer.  In a weird way, they are revered without any merit or qualification.  That is how gullible the destiel fan base is.  They never probe a claim.  And they never just enjoy their ship.  Everything has to be about canon destiel, ship wars [their latest victim is sastiel] and they never acknowledge criminal threats.  Being loyal to them means that you are popular with the bad crowd.  Let that sink in. 

So while some may be preparing for the eventual let-down, it is completely acceptable to keep the faith. If it doesn’t happen, it won’t be the fault of writers, cast, or crew.

Oh, no it will be the fault of the meta writers, like this joker, and Misha Collins.  Misha has actively queer baited his fans for ten years.  Its funny how Jensen is the bad guy for saying that destiel doesn't exist, but Misha is such a kidder if he says anything destiel and even cockles friendly.  Misha Collins is the only person on the cast, crew and writers who actively and vocally pushed destiel consistently for ten years.  So much so that he ignored sastiel.  He changed that at Nashcon for reasons unknown.  If you want to lash out at anyone for destiel not being canon, please go ahead and lash out at Misha.  The only one who gave you any hope was Misha. 

In conclusion:  I have only met one destiel shipper [receipt on my blog], who acknowledged that destiel shippers were becoming ghastly and that Misha was egging on the troublemakers.  She admitted that she didn't approve of his behavior.  Other than her, I have not come across another.  Other than this one person, nobody else deserves my empathy.  When SPN ends without destiel being canon, prepare for the hellers being mocked by all and sundry, due to all the many enemies they earned for the threats, attacks on J2 and the vandalism.  No one will feel sorry for them, because they ruined this fandom.  Remember, Destiel is not a religion.  Loving and believing it is not a prerequisite for being an SPN fan. 

Excuse the typos. 

[jacobglaser]

It's it such a weird feeling coming back to a fandom that you were so entrenched in years ago after being completely out of it for 5+ years.

(Ok this post got long and rambly so I'm gonna pop it under a cut)

Like, on one hand it's like nothing has changed, its 2013, I'm destiel trash again, the memories, the shitposts, it's so great!! But there are so many things I missed, like I used to LIVE this show, i knew who all the writers were, everything. Now I dont know barely anything about the current state of the writers room (I've gathered that Robert Berens is a literal angel and I've seen some bashing of Buckleming and obviously Dabb but other than that ???) Like what happened to Ben Edlund & Robbie Thompson? And Jeremy Carver?

Also side tangent I've been rethinking so many of my previous opinions on certain things, specifically the ~*~internalised misogyny~*~ that I'm pretty sure clouded my thoughts of certain people. I'm still not sure about the Sera Gamble era, I need to go back and watch it with a new eye, but the pure vitriol that was directed at her, by me included, was so gross. And even the last series I watched before I stopped, with Amara, I fucking hated her, and I recently saw some of my old posts and I dont even know that person. But when she came back I loved her! Other than her fucking ending, another female character shafted by this show! So I'm hoping when (if) I do a rewatch I might appreciate S11 more. I dont even wanna look at my posts from S6, I don't remember been a real anti-Lisa person, I dont think I was a complete clown at that point, but I was like 19/20 then and not in a good place so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some real grossness in there.

Anyway, yeah, I had not even heard the word br*nlies until this past 2 weeks, at first I thought it was a brony thing and I was massively confused, it's a little embarrassing how long it took me to click that it meant brothers only.

It's also so bizarre coming back to Tumblr after the porn ban, I still think that was an incredibly dumb move, but honestly jumping into the spn tag and not running the risk of seeing some graphic w*ncest fanart is a relief.

And there are so many other things I've missed, I mean, I dont know what to make of Jared, I was never as much of a stan as I was for Jensen & Misha but I still really did love them all, but like his comments on the finale???? I dont know whether he's just trying not to piss off the cw because of Walker, but it just feels so incongruous with Jensen and Mishas reactions (or lack thereof). I still love the entire cast though, I hope he's ok, I know I missed some shit when I was away, something about him drunkenly assaulting someone at a bar maybe? but as someone whose mental health is fragile at best and probably drinks more than is healthy, my heart genuinely goes out to him. (My knowledge of the situation is literally that basic though, so if there’s more to the situation, and he’s actually just a prick, I will revise my opinion) (also re loving the entire cast, fuck mark pelligrino, it sucks that he was the perfect lucifer casting in the show, but he can absolutely get bent)

Anyway, sorry for vomiting my feelings everywhere, it's just so nice to be posting on here again, it's the only social media that I dont have family/rl people on so I can be a bit more real, also theres no-one irl that I'm close with anymore that watches spn so I dont have anyone to vent to. My mother, bless her, has been asking about it cos she knows I'm back on my bullshit, but how the hell do you explain that fucking finale to someone that knows nothing about the show, it's not just bad like GOT or PLL, there are so many layers to the betrayals.

Anyway, love you all, I haven't cried today so that's a plus! But I've had a couple glasses of wine and for the first time in 5 years I have the urge to read some fanfic so things might change!!!

[incarnateirony]

If we're looking to puzzles in past seasons, how about Zach's installation of false memories / fake selves in S+D in It's a Terrible Life? How much of it is Zach (or the show) just fucking around for fun? And how can anyone after watching it think Dean is heterosexual, or that the show thinks he is? I'd love to see analysis of all the parallel universes, false futures etc together that looks at what those eps are doing, from What Is and Should Never Be to French Mistake to The Trap

I imagine this is a followup to the time travel ask (x) which I will link here too, because it’s still important, even if this example itself is not time travel. I actually went into the OP and edited in a segment saying honestly, Time Travel takes more Universal Power than Created Spaces, from what I’ve witnessed in Supernatural.

I’m actually going to avoid the “Dean het/bi” argument here for once because, while I do espouse that Dean is now canonically bi via a series of low visibility text, the most textual nail being driven in during Last Call, I generally give that old era I just don’t see the same kind of genuine queer coding. The few episodes they crop up in tend to be Edlund’s and they were an entire universe away from modern Bobo+ episodes in delivery, and I’m just... going to go “nahhh, if you use that as part of what you see by all means, but I’m not about to dive into that with any kind of intent here.”

I did also during my edit point out some stuff in the Trap:  That is to say though, that according to this model, there IS still a future out there written somewhere that Dean had to bury Cas in a Malak Box, got overwhelmed by depression, literally gave up, turned into a monster and killed everyone he loved with Sam until he too died. But Not This Sam, Not This Dean.

But to go into the one of false memories and fake selves, we actually go closer to my Thought Boxes experiment. (x) 

Unlike The End and Edlund, we lack any kind of creative commentary or even text in the script itself to vaguely IMPLY this was an actual alternate timeline. But all timelines happen within Thought Boxes (see link) that have time installed (as opposed to many heavens being delineated/not having the Swiss Watch installed like Chuck’s worlds, but Chuck isn’t the only one that can perceive of an order.)

This is where things get a little warpy for people: stop thinking of angels as their vessels for a minute. Does Cas properly own his now, is it his own body, yes. But beyond Cas, or even before Cas had his living period(s) (which is actually a great deal of why he’s so thoroughly invested in the human perspective compared to his peers), I need people to realize that “wavelengths of intent” thing is important as fuck.

The faces we see are vessels to interact in a timeline with. They are functionaries, even if some proverbially hit a button like Anael. They are designed to pull out tasks within a universal structure, and also have lesser powers (by scale of their general grade/type) reflective of the divine that created that one. But just like Michael couldn’t actually snap his fingers and nuke them all in Dean’s Thought Box, I gesture at for example Dark Side Of The Moon where while Zachariah mocked them, he actually couldn’t pull out ubermoves on them, and couldn’t find them when they disappeared into Ash’s Thought Box. Because in here, we’re all just mental projections. And in here, we’re all the same. So you can’t. Don’t play God’s game, make him play yours. 

We also find out that God had wiped Sam and Dean’s death memories in heaven before, not too unlike Castiel did Lisa and the kid later. Memory manipulation is nothing new.

This seems like a bizarre aside to approach little things like It’s A Terrible Life in, but it’s actually key to nail in. Also, I don’t know how many of you have watched Agents of Shield, but this may help people: When uploaded to the Framework from Aiva’s system rather than an independent one, people completely had their memories messed up. This all actually applies a similar idea. And yet really, think of this as uploading to different worlds. When the Immortal Human Soul, which is timeless, is Uploaded to Earth, they also don’t know anything about their Immortal Past. Now, put a Thought Box inside a Thought Box. Be that Dean thinking he really did own a bar, or Sam thinking he’s a phone center operator, the uploaded individual to the Thought Box does not necessarily retain all they should know, even if things eat at them as right or wrong in the scale of it all until they unlock their true nature.

It’s A Terrible Life is not too different: from MichaelDean’s headbar, from Castiel’s zoned out reality with Lucifer, or whatever else. It is an alternate created space the souls have been packed into, resetting what they know despite what they Know. It too is a venture--if less immediately visibly philosophical--about the (re)discovery of the self. 

Now, in It’s A Terrible Life, respectively Zachariah was God (despite actually working on behalf of god Outside of the Terrible Life Thought Box). He designed the entire system and story and rules and regulations for them to play in, a thought box, and one he could directly intervene in, unlike in The End. Power flowed back to Zachariah in this box.

ADLER stands up and presses two fingers to DEAN's forehead. Everything goes from saturated color to dim. DEAN looks around at the office and himself.

DEAN What the hell? Why am I wearing a tie? My God, am I hungry.

And he directly influenced how their bodies reacted, such as the fact that Dean somehow felt fine eating rabbit food rofl.

DEAN Gross. No thank you. So, what? I'm just hallucinating all this? Is that it?

ZACHARIAH Not at all. Real place, real haunting. Just plunked you in the middle without the benefit of your memories.

One might argue this infers that it is a real place *on this earth*, on which neither side actually has receipts as much as “conclusion majority jumps to.” -- In the very least, Zachariah directly impacted the body-cage and its memories and function. But also for Sam and Dean to have been enrolled there, he would have had to do it to an infinite chain of people in their path that wouldn’t notice the new chief of marketing and everybody on the floor knowing Sam and all the weird influences in those people’s lives too. Which again is why I point up to how CENTRAL this Thought Box idea actually is to Supernatural, and how very much Zachariah’s “real place” is just as likely, with all other functions we’ve seen, just like any other Real Place that the characters call Not Real. It isn’t real to Them. Because it’s not their lives and their stories. It doesn’t have their people.  

It’s somewhere in an infinite ocean of thought boxes, possibly one created by Zachariah himself since he is literally positioned as a CEO there. Which is... honestly, if you get past the mental hiccup of thinking outside the (thought) box, a far easier resolution to this entire scenario than Zachariah butterfly effecting half the planet just to troll Sam and Dean. And even if he DID do that, there Is the reminder of wavelengths of celestial intent, and how easily Chuck reset the planet’s state of knowing, but Zachariah as a general angel (kerubim by his description of himself) and not God Himself would have limits in that authority, so making a divergent box makes far more sense.

This was when use of Matrix and Baudrillard and whatever else was fairly young in the show, though, so while I can’t swear that was 100% the intent when it was *made* (and again, unlike The End, we have no creative commentary on this that I’ve found), as Dark Side of the Moon came a season later and evoked it, Carver deployed it a few times, and now Dabb Era quite centrally hovers around it, in the very least modern canon and all its evolutions would easily lead to this result.