#he’s just so present in s3 with his powers and his plot and his relationships with his siblings

[buildoblivionthenwewilltalk]

in other news I’ve been spending my commutes day dreaming up a fic where we just drop s3 Klaus in the middle of s1 and let him run riot please add your own suggestions to this scenario below <3

[fuckyeahisawthat]

If you see Good Omens s2 as a bridge between the end of s1 and a s3 plot that, it seems, will revolve around [spoilers below]

Aziraphale and the second coming (in a parallel to s1 being about Crowley and the Antichrist) then a lot of things make sense, and actually I think this is one of the only routes they could have taken that would seem remotely plausible.

Because how the fuck do you get Aziraphale back in Heaven after the events of s1? Both you (a writer who wrote s1 as a self-contained adaptation of an existing work, having no idea if there would be future seasons) and you (Heaven within the world of the story).

In the book verse, I could see this playing out as a sort of “you thought you were happily retired and then they pulled you back in for one last job” situation, and I think that could have worked. Because book Heaven and Hell seem to end the story basically agreeing to forget Aziraphale and Crowley’s numbers out of sheer embarrassment, and that works in the world of the book because Heaven, in particular, seems to forget Aziraphale exists at least 80% of the time anyway. Book Heaven is mostly notable for its absence. We recognize their hypocrisy in claiming to be the good guys while mostly doing the exact same shit as Hell with better PR, but in the book Hell seems like the side that’s more dangerous and actively intrusive in Crowley’s life.

But TV Heaven and Hell are terrifyingly, oppressively present in Aziraphale and Crowley’s lives, and both of them very recently (in immortal being terms) tried to execute their respective agents for treason, and still don’t understand why they failed. This raises the stakes and the threat to their relationship enormously, which works great in a television drama where their relationship is much more of a focus than it is in the book. But it also makes it much more difficult to imagine either of them going back to their respective sides after the events of s1. They made that choice already.

So what do you (writer now trying to solve this problem for s2 and potentially s3) and you (Heaven, trying to come up with a way that Aziraphale would walk back into his former prison willingly) do?

You offer Aziraphale the one thing he can’t refuse, the thing he still doesn’t have, even now after Armageddidn’t and surviving the trials and 4 (?) years of living more or less openly with Crowley around. You offer him safety. Safety for himself and Crowley, together.

We know it’s a trap. We know what Heaven is offering is not safety, but control. But Aziraphale hasn’t gotten there yet. We understand why Crowley sees it as a rejection and an insult. But to Aziraphale it’s an offer better than he ever thought was possible to receive.

He thought, all of s1, that he would have to choose between following Heaven’s orders and saving the world and his relationship with Crowley. And he made his choice. Now someone is telling him he can have both? Love and acceptance from Heaven for him and Crowley, and the power to make things better? And when he realizes Crowley won’t come with him…well, maybe at least from Heaven he will still be able to protect him, even if he’s not by his side.

And you know what? I bet, in the short term, this is going to only make him double down on his “it was just a few bad angels” justification for the way Heaven behaved. Because this offer is coming from the literal voice of God. Maybe it even reinforces the idea that God didn’t want Armageddon to happen at all, that Aziraphale and Crowley and Adam and the Them actually were doing her will by stopping it. Because now Aziraphale is being invited back in, with more authority than he ever had before. And they invited Crowley (who he always believed was Good) back in too.

He doesn’t get it yet, that Crowley is right. That you can’t reform Heaven from the inside, because it is not and never was the good side. Because there is no good side.

Aziraphale hasn’t figured that out yet. But he will.

[demontobee]

Parallels between Lord Jim and Good Omens (2)

I have rewatched GO2 at least 10 times now (still counting, obvsly), and every time I notice new easter eggs that emerge from the massive web of intertextuality that Neil Gaiman created for us here.

So today, I wanted to focus on the way Aziraphale came up with the “undercover” name “Jim” for Gabriel. He read it on the spine of a book: Lord Jim.

That book was written by Joseph Conrad (a Polish-British writer with dubious ideas about colonialism) and published in 1900. The plot basically follows the life of a young idealistic seaman called Jim who has to defend himself in a trial that concerns a sinking ship which he and other members of the crew abandoned in a storm, leaving it and the helpless passengers to their fate. The ship did not sink in the end, and he was the only member of the crew who was held accountable for his deeds by stripping him off his naval certificate. The trial is where he meets the narrator of the story, Marlow, who is strangely intrigued by the young man, who seems to be engulfed by guilt and shame over his morally wrong decision to leave the boat. The narrator tries to help Jim to his feet and lands him a job as a post manager at some remote colonial outpost. There he becomes a hero by capturing a local bandit. Later he falls victim to a scheme against him, and a pirate raids a neighbouring community and kills the son of their chief, Jim’s close friend. Jim then goes there, and the chief shoots him as a revenge for his son.

I mean, the most obvious parallel is that Gabriel gets named after Jim. He, too, abandoned his ship (Heaven; and the question here is, did he know it might be a sinking ship as well?) and was put on trial and lost his position as archangel before he came to Aziraphale for help. But that’s not all there is to it.

Let us start with the formal (concerning style and structure) aspects:

narrative structure:

“Marlow has complete control over the story … and he exercises his power in increasingly complicated ways. Time is broken up: in a single paragraph of narration, Marlow will reference the past, the present, and the future. By manipulating the flow of the narrative, Marlow is able to create juxtapositions and contrasts that highlight particular aspects of the story. He is a master at withholding information …” (Source: Sparknotes)

As I have already discussed in another post, this is more or less how narrative structure works in GO, too (S2 maybe more than S1, but this still applies to both). We get minisodes from the past that directly reference and juxtapose situations in the story that takes place in the present. Take, for example, the Job minisode, which gives us information about the development of Crowley and Aziraphale’s relationship, but we also see how devastating and hard it was for Aziraphale to realise that sometimes he had to lie (or do something considered wrong in heaven) to do the morally right thing. This sequence is juxtaposed with the relative ease he exhibits in the present day when he has to lie to heaven on a regular basis (in this case, about the miracle and hiding Gabriel, which is kind of a big lie, too). The show also plays with our understanding and expectations of how time works, as S2 starts with a scene that takes place “before the beginning,” which undermines dramatic structure as it has been known and accepted since Aristotle. It is also interesting to note that in S1, we have a strong sense of an almighty narrator, since god herself is narrating the whole time and she sure lets us know that she is playing her own ineffable game here. In S2, however, we don’t have a clear narrative voice. This might make it seem like the narration is more neutral or less meddled with, but in reality, it just makes things even less reliable and situations more ambiguous, as we have no single voice to interpret them for us. Someone is definitely “withholding information” here, and I guess we’ll have to wait for S3 to get the full picture.

language/style:

“Marlow constantly ponders the "message"--the meaning of Jim's story. His language is dense with terms like "inscrutable" and "inexplicable," words that denote imprecision and indecipherability, but which also possess a certain quality of uncertainty in themselves, as words. He struggles to name things, and is often reduced to wondering if there even is a meaning to Jim's story and his fascination with it. Sometimes he concludes that the meaning is an "enigma"; sometimes he decides there is no meaning to be found at all. Words are constantly being contested in this novel; at least three major episodes center around the misinterpretation of a single spoken word.” (Source: Sparknotes)

I mean, “inscrutable” and “inexplicable”? Why not just call it “ineffable”? I also love how Crowley seems to wonder about the meaning of things (especially the distinction between “good” and “bad”), as one of the first things we here him say in S2 is something like: “Do you ever ask yourself what’s the point. I mean angels, demons, heaven, hell … it all seems a bit … point … less.” And obviously, the whole show is full of misinterpretations of words (e.g., “what does your exactly mean, exactly? I feel like my exactly and your exactly are different exactlies”), or, as we are all painfully aware, a whole way of communicating with one another (“aim for my mouth, but shoot past my ear”).

Now for some similarities concerning informal (aka content) aspects:

moral balance and “naïve heroism”:

“Even more tortured is the analysis of idealism and heroism that lies at the center of Lord Jim. Jim is a young man who enters the world motivated primarily by fantasies of daring and noble deeds lifted from cheap novels. His ideals break down, however, in the face of real danger; they are, in fact, untenable when applied to any form of reality.” (Source: Sparnotes)

That sounds like both Crowley and Aziraphale in a way. They both set out as naïve idealists, and both of them learn (Crowley earlier and faster that Aziraphale) that their (heavenly) ideals do not hold in the complex reality of life. A lot of what we see in S2 is Aziraphale coming to terms with accepting that doing the “right thing” on earth often involves breaking his heavenly rules and allowing for “shades of grey.”

struggling to comprehend own identity and moral consequences of own actions:

Both the narrator, Marlow, and the protagonist of his tale, Jim, are trying to figure out their identity. Marlow seems to tell the story mainly to kind of make sense of identity itself but also of him personally, while Jim tries to make amends for his morally wrong behaviour and tries to manifest his identity (as a hero) through action.

In GO2, we have a lot of identity struggles and questions of “who am I?”: Jim the amnesiac angel is the most blatantly obvious case, but we also have Aziraphale negotiating his identity constantly, e.g., in the Job episode when he asks “Then what am I?” after having lied to heaven for the first time . And I mean Crowley is just on another level of liminal identity entirely, isn’t he?

As a bonus (and I am probably going overboard here, but well), this is the description of Jim’s death:

“Then with his hand over his lips he fell forward, dead.”

  The imagery reminds me of something…ahhh yes:

Feel free to add your thoughts in the tags or comments!

[sugarcubetikki]

I can’t stop thinking about the way elmax is built up. I’m always debating whether it’s romantically coded or not because it’s so similar to the way Byler is written.

They built Elmax up way more than Mickey Mouse - these past two seasons they focused on breaking that ship down and showing us why they’re incompatible together whilst focusing a lot more on romantic Byler buildup and Elmax’s bond these two pairings clearly being prioritised over their main couple. For Elmax, it shows even more than Byler that their relationship/friendship is clearly being prioritised over Milkvan’s own.

I also need to point out that both Byler and Elmax’s relationship/friendship always seems to be intertwined with the state of Milkvan’s relationship. For both El and Mike, it seems that whenever their romantic relationship was on “good terms” they were respectively distanced from Max and Will.

As this is about Elmax, I won’t go in depth on Byler here and also because we’ve discussed it so many times before of how Mike can’t seem to balance his relationships with both El and Will and how narratively in the first two seasons Mike was physically distanced from one whilst supporting the other. This obviously plays into the huge love triangle aspect of these pairings as well as Mike’s conflicting feelings here.

For Elmax, it’s a similar love triangle writing style used here. It’s important to note that El and Max’s relationship starts off with hostility and jealousy from El’s behalf in S2 due to the fact that El sees Max as a romantic rival in terms with her relationship with Mike (due to that single misunderstanding). Her jealousy over Mike is what prevents her from befriending and getting to know Max so Milkvan was a barrier to Elmax’s buildup here. And this is not me just saying this future seasons (especially s3 support this notion too based on how the show depicts it).

(Not to mention, this was also the time a lot of people expected a typical love triangle with Mike in the centre and El and Max with mutual rivalry between the two but thank god the show did not do that instead they used love triangle style writing in a different way).

Moving onto S3 with a whole lot of Elmax development, Max really helps El grow as a person and embrace some of her own individuality and freedom they’re relationship is at its peak and presented in a positive light when Milkvan is at a very low point. In fact it’s them being at a low point that makes El approach Max in the first place and it’s Max who encourages El to initiate the breakup because Mike wasn’t treating her right. Max and Mike are also constantly butting heads because of this and he’s accusing her all over the place for “corrupting El” and “conspiring against him” whereas Max here believes that Mike doesn’t see El as her own person but treats her like “his pet” rather than an equal. Essentially it was Milkvan vs Elmax season and Elmax was being depicted as the narratively better dynamic as it fit with El’s character needs whilst Milkvan’s arc that season didn’t.

S4 Vol 2 is very Elmax-focused with El’s goal being to save Max from Vecna. I think the clash with Milkvan here mainly comes at the monologue part and how little impact it has at the end of the day. Mike’s dramatic monologue that’s supposed to be impactful and powerful falls flat for a number of reasons (not just byler-coded ones also the fact that it wasn’t genuine) it’s also that it was depicted as a plot device but did little to actually help save the day. I mean they would argue that it helped El free herself from those vines but did it really? Also if the monologue’s only impact is freeing El from the vines but after that sells short and isn’t actually the reason that El revives Max then it’s a pretty weak plot device and presented to be insignificant. Usually, love monologues are impactful when they contribute to an impactful moment of victory. Mike’s monologue did not do that at all. After El frees herself from those vines, the thing that keeps her fighting on isn’t even presented to be her love for Mike, it’s her love for Max. What was the point of that monologue again I’m sorry? Yeah that’s right it’s a lie and everyone knows it so it’s insignificant to the point that El doesn’t even acknowledge it after. In fact, after the show points out El isn’t speaking to Mike, we see that El is thinking about Max and mainly Max (which is reasonably so too but the way the scene is presented once again supports the narrative idea of Milkvan vs Elmax).

I think I’ve established that Elmax’s relationship is vital to the overall storyline of the show and prioritised over Milkvan’s and is constantly clashing with the pairing to emphasise where El’s true character wants and needs rest.

I’m not sure if it’s romantic or not like I said but they’re very queercoded (owens mistaking max for a guy only so el can correct him that she’s not which is a very odd thing to write in because hello it’s gay) also along with the love triangle-esque writing they have so much chemistry and buildup on their own and they’re clearly vital to the series too honestly they have as much buildup as lumax.

Both elmax and lumax are built up so well and beautifully written honestly. They both have chemistry and work so well together. Both are romantically coded too. I think no one considers Elmax because of how well-built Lumax is already and heteronormativity. I personally think either would work as an endgame ship or even better elumax lol sometimes my brain believes they’re building up to that because it would make sense (I can see El and Lucas bonding too next season with Max in coma). I mean both El and Lucas’s love seems to be what supported her in Vol 2 and their love seems to be what’ll save her in S5 too at least I hope. Romantic or not from all ends, elumax is definitely going to be key in S5. (However, if S5 ends with byler and elumax endgame shut up I’ll be talking about it for months on end).

Once again, as long as some Elmax and Milkvan analysis, a lot of these are my thoughts and my opinions based on how I view and interpret the show, if you don’t share the same view and opinion on Elmax/Elumax, that’s completely fine but please don’t harass me on that matter as I mentioned this is my perspective and reading on the show thank you.

[chemical-irwin]

oohhhhh i need to spill some thoughts about hsmtmts because the brainrot is real. as a lover of Gina Porter and a day 1 Rina warrior, i LOVED watching Gina getting everything she every wanted, and watching Rina be so amazingly disgustingly in love all season was more amazing than i could’ve imagined

but i also feel like most of the conflict i actually wanted to see maybe be addressed was just… sidestepped?

Rini had a lot of faults as a couple, but i think the bottom line for why they wouldn’t work was because their life goals and levels of ambition made them not compatible.

their communication with each other got bad because they were afraid to tell each other the truth. Ricky tried the long distance relationship and came to the conclusion that he found it difficult. and i think Nini came to the conclusion that she wouldn’t be able to fly and fully be herself while being by his side. (also ricky had feelings for another girl, sooo)

okay but Rina are literally soulmates. the difference is that they love and understand each other so much they are willing to fight through all the hardships and insecurities. they were going to find a way to have it all (and i believe they can)

that’s why i wish that they went through with Gina not being able to be Gabriella. it actually does seem like an alright sacrifice to make when she got the role in the film. just like it wasn’t important for her to be Gabriella in s1, Ricky and Gina making time for each other even though she was on set all day would’ve been a nice thing to see. (but also what is more meta than Gina coming in halfway through the show to sing a Gabriella hsm3 song?)

it would’ve been good to show that Ricky wasn’t worried about their limited time together like he was Nini. and he didn’t need to feel intimidated by Mack, whose ‘at the same level’ as Gina and wouldn’t hold her back. it’s one of Ricky’s biggest insecurities, and he still feels like that in the final.

i also think it would’ve been awesome to see Ricky help Dani. having Ricky’s plot be so Gina focused the last two seasons is fine for showing his character growth with relationships- but i also feel sad a a Ricky fan that he still feels somewhat lost by the end.

i wish somebody would turn and say to him that he’s a leader, and he has this super power to see through peoples hard exteriors and gets them to come out of their shells and connect with others (i loved his and Jets friendship in s3). Dani is supposed to be ambitious and business savvy, she couldve been a good foil for Ricky, instead we got a half baked story with Kourtney that was dropped. Ricky is talented! he should monetise it! (also it would’ve been good to see gina work through jealousy)

the fact Ricky’s conclusion was ‘as long as Gina can help me study, i’ll be able to get A’s go to college’ is definitely a conclusion. Gina getting to film the film in SLC is cool but what about the next film where she won’t have a clever plan for her conflicts? i feel like the show presents these situations to say ‘would this be tough for them? well Gina Porter can move mountains so you won’t have to know!’

sometimes love isn’t always enough for a couple. they actually might be Romeo and Juliet, where they are star-crossed, or they might not be, i feel like we never really got to put them to the test. (the fact that their rain kiss is about a miscommunication about her moms house rules, rather than the actual angst in their relationship was interesting!)

but also this is an 8 episode Disney Plus show soooo y’know

[terrainofheartfelt]

why is s3 dair so good??? honestly, what is it about them (both as individual characters and relationship-wise) that makes it so... good, for lack of a better word?

it's the Narrative Foils, babe!

no, but really, this plot had EVERYTHING: there's first the setup that they're both at nyu even though they didn't want to be - it's where the ended up after their respective Yale dreams fell through.

then, there's the role reversal of Blair, who's always used to being on top, sure she was caught up in power struggles at Constance but there people still cared who she was, and now, nobody does. she's just another freshman. and Dan, who was used to a certain invisible kind of existence, is noticed on his very first day for being a Writer - and a good one! and he makes friends who actually like him as a person! it's him with the social capital now, and the first thing he spends it on is to help out Blair. (insane. they are insane. they should kiss.)

🪑 aside, this is also the first time in the show ever that Dan is unattached narratively to Serena. I mean, they're friends and on the verge of being family, but they'd been given real romantic closure in s2, so they start off the college arc truly as just friends, which means for the first time in the show, Dan's romantic arc prospects are openended, which in my unexpert opinion, pours a little extra sauce on his loaded interactions with Blair.

also he and Blair's roommate fuck and Blair sees him shirtless in his post woodchuck todd glow up and idk how a girl doesn't have strong feelings about that ya feel me?

AND (I think Nads has touched on this before?) Constance/St. Jude's was pretty...partitioned, I guess you could say, so with the exception of The Essay Contest, I don't think Blair and Dan were put in the position for any competition, but at a fully coed school? And with their similar interests they were bound to end up in classes together, and I swear it is such a CRIME that we didn't get any classroom hijinks with these ding-dongs. competing for top grades and rankings, fighting over a TA position, checking out all the material in the library on a topic to sabotage the other's research, it could have fed us Damien Darko vibes a season and a half earlier and I am BITTER.

I think ultimately it's how the beginning of college presented a twist on their previously perceived social standings (and understandings of each other), and that the sheer potential of starting over in a new place opened up windows of story that didn't/couldn't exist in the high school ecosystem. was it ultimately underexplored and underutilized? absolutely, but at least we have that s3 dair FWB fic on ao3...

[buck-yyyy]

okay okay i know i talk a lot about byler but here's how i wanted the supernatural ending of stranger things v2 to go

i'm actually really proud of this ngl- (and yes i know this wouldn't leave much room for season five. shut up i still like it)

the main party confronts vecna while everyone else is.. idk they're somewhere, i haven't thought THAT much about this.

vecna is up on a hill in the upside down (running up that hill yk) while the party is at the bottom, in a V shape that is headed by el

vecna has his monologue moment, he extends his final offer for her to join him, el shuts him down

vecna says smth like "then you asked for this", el turns around

all five kids are staring blankly ahead, in a trance.

vecna has now become so powerful that he can have five people in a trance and STILL be present in the moment to battle it out. oh fuck moment.

cue dramatic music (i've now decided that it's the running up that hill epic version after seeing that scene in v2)

camera focuses on el. she is lined up with vecna. insert cinematographic parallel for how they could have been the same, but their distance shows that she chose to be different.

el now has only a few minutes to defeat vecna before her five closest friends die. EXTREME STAKES.

she sticks her hand out and does the thing. as her and vecna battle it out, which is somehow made visually interesting, it cuts in and out of the battle scene to show what each party member is seeing.

we get more info on will's relationship with lonnie. we see how lonnie's abuse shaped will's interpretation of his sexuality.

we get even more insight into max's trauma from billy's abuse, maybe see some stuff about her dad.

(eddie stans im sorry but he still died in this version) we see how eddie's death affected dustin, how important eddie was to him. maybe vecna warps old memories of eddie in order to further mess with his head.

we see the stuff from lucas on the line- how he's dealt with casual racism his entire life, and all the shit from the basketball team. we see his guilt for bringing max into all of this back in s2, now that max is in danger and he likely blames himself.

and last but not least, we see mike's internalized homophobia. we see troy and james, we see ted, we see everything. the general audience is allowed an understanding of comphet and why mike is in a relationship with el even though he's now realized that he might be gay. we see his fear and hatred towards that part of himself.

back to the main battle. a shot from behind. the party has now risen into the air. we see el through the gaps as she struggles to fight.

el defeats vecna, but in the process, she loses her powers. maybe she had to overload him somehow and transfered all her power/the energy that sources it into him to destroy him. idk, i just want her to lose her powers.

everyone drops to the ground, including el. group hug, lots of sobbing.

now for the other stuff outside of the main battle.

we see the ENTIRE party mourning eddie- especially mike.

mutual m!leven breakup. it's beautiful in a way, and they're both better off for it.

mike starts to be slightly more open about his feelings for will, hinting a byler set up for season five.

el is much more accepting of her lack of powers than at the end of s3. throughout the course of s4, she's learned that she doesn't need her powers to be loved and appreciated. SELF ACCEPTANCE ARC- COMPLETE!!!

so yeah- that's what i was hoping to come out of season four with. it obviously didn't happen, but i really was dreaming of a ton of people getting vecna'd at once- i thought (and still think) it would be super cool, both visually and as it related to the plot. big fan <33

but i'd love to hear your thoughts, both about what i wrote here and what you guys thought would happen in volume two!

[thatforgottenbasilisk]

5 headcanons abt ur main TMA/BNHA au pls basil :)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM HELL YEAH OKAY SO

(spoilers for "These Statements Certainly Have Their Quirks (Main Series)" up through chapter 2 of the epilogue, i know a lot of my tumblr followers prolly havent read it so im putting it under a readmore just in case :D)

1- The news crew (yamada kaori, the news anchor; enatsu azami, the meteorologist; and goshima taro, the miscellaneous other things guy) are all in a polyamorous relationship and have been for a while now :)

2- detective tsukauchi would have been in deku's domain if i couldve gotten away with not addressing it at all; however, that isn't possible, and thus he's in that hunt domain that's 100% a criticism of cancel culture

3- a lot of the class who have alignments have different appearances from canon that weren't mentioned anywhere and i have no way to bring that up- for instance, mido has a little scar on his head from the debris that avatared him, shouto is physically more faded and washed out looking than canon (his hair/scar are more of a pink than red), bakus eyes look brown from a distance bc he has some green in em but theyre mainly red hence. brown.

4- beholding wants aizawa sooooo bad but aizawa just straight up said "no <3" like. he has specifically avoided beholding bc in the section presentation he made the connection between the eye fear entity and his own quirk and was like "oh. i should avoid that" and he did. successfully. for fifteen years. king shit

5- this whole series is about adding fears to mha but adding quirks to tma was a thing that did happen and im legitimately upset that i didnt get to explore that further.

5a- jon had a whole ass character arc in this version of seasons 1-3 regarding his quirklessness. he used to have such a complex about it and now he doesn't. growth! i would write it but it would be a canon rewrite but with quirks this time, and none of those quirks are big enough to affect the plot in any meaningful way so it would just kind of suck tbh

5b- martin has lighter fingers. like flint-and-steel kind of lighter fingers, his finger pads are made of a stiff material such that when they encounter friction from snapping or something, they make sparks. martin wears gloves whenever he's in the institute for fear of lighting a book or document on fire, which is a valid concern. s3 finale was done by him using his quirk instead of a lighter

5c- tim had a light-making quirk where he could make little multicolored lanterns of light, pretty much their only purpose was to be decorative. he could move them around, but nobody else could touch them or else they would dissipate. danny had a similar one that could have been used offensively, because he could form the light into shapes and it was completely tangible to everyone/everything- it was very powerful and everyone told him he would be a good hero, but he decided against it

5d- sasha had a technology-related quirk, possibly the ability to guess passwords or something like that. not-sasha's quirk was to make any software malfunction at will- and sometimes against her will (so she said).

[marypsue]

REVERSE CURSE DAY!! Very underformed theory on what may happen: we’re gonna see more of what’s happening with billy leaving max alone and it’ll be ominous and concerning. Two, the eleven is heading off and I’m curious if she’ll still go alone this time. Jonathan is gonna be Not Handling the loss of powers, and also (this one more is out there) maybe he’s also possessed and to maintain spy qualities it was impossible for him to keep his powers and not immediately freak over will. Theory two, ?????idk maybe the mind slayer was so unknowable or unpleasant his mind shut itself down in defense????? Buuuuut it’s a good chance to Jonathan to learn to communicate/be with people sans comfort blanket (turns out I’m actually very bad at coming up with theories but I swear I also just woke up). Also I wonder what we’ll see now that Robin is no powers team confirmed(NANCY ILY BUT NOT EVERYONE THAT IS HIDING IS HIDING POWERS) . Even if she doesn’t show up it’s also very funny to me if Steve walks into scoops and she’s immediately like so you have powers huh. Buuuuut obviously Robin is iconic and I’m rooting for her joining the plot sooner ( Steve and Robin are shamelessly my favorite duo) (( but I do love curse reverse Jonathan and Steve energy! Also max and El friendship being well done and not the duffer’s favorite/only way to write female relationship which is stupid conflict and then miraculous bonding ) Also I love your season four observations, and the way the show would’ve been better in your hands!! No more Russia plot lines!! Also I think it would’ve been objectively very funny if Nancy and Jonathan both decided to do a last minute hurrah and fly out to Hawkins/Calif and they ended up both switching teams. Also imagine the insane opportunities of a will Joyce Mike Nancy and Argyle set up. Maybe Joyce isn’t there bc the show tries to respect it’s audience and has her present during El’s “““ arrest””” and she ends up accompanying her to the Nina Project. Then we still get to see Nancy the big sister which is a role that we don’t see often. Also I cannot believe they did an entire season badly trying to show our Hunt The Freaks and made up a new one instead dod using Jonathan. Who isn’t well liked, under mysterious circumstances got to bring his brother back to life, is always there when shit goes wrong, and also experiences class based ostracism. Because imagine the cool potential for a Steve and Jonathan dynamic and actual growth bc then they can finally go back to foils but with growth. Steve is kinda wierd now, Jonathan in some ways has things that Steve doesn’t, also they’re both the protectors of their respective band of kids and are both shown to have been distancing themselves from that role kinda. ANYWAY that’s not relevant but can’t wait fir the chapter tonight!!

Fic day!! And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Now I am ridiculously excited to share the next couple of chapters! (Steve and Robin are also my favourite duo. Shh, don't tell the others.)

I'm still only at the end of episode three, so I can't say much, but oh my god the hilarity of Nancy and Jonathan just missing each other? That would have been pure gold. And I never even thought of it, but you're right, it would have made so much sense to have Jonathan be the target of a witchhunt, and given so many good character opportunities for him and Steve. I just feel so bad for him, like, very clearly the Duffers are wishing they could just write him out and he deserves so much better. I did not expect to get this attached to him after my first watchthrough, but here we are.

(Tangentially related: the beautiful and talented @daddygrandpaandthebeaver is, as we speak, working on a season 4 AU rewrite where the timeskip between s3 and s4 is three years instead of nine months, and Dustin is the one who's running a drama I mean, D&D club and gets a murder unfairly pinned on him and the Party and assorted friends and relatives have to assemble to save him from the torches and pitchforks, and I am so hype for that fic that it's unbelievable.)

[ineffably-human]

that’s something i think about a LOT. alright, when harvey auditioned guillermo was still an old man. so the script hasn’t changed there. but harvey said that as soon as he auditioned, a week or so later, he received a call and that he was already filming in the next week. so did they draft a quick new storyline, or did they have plans already to change the characters? did they change while filming it and hoped that FX would approve? sometimes, watching the series, i feel like harvey being younger made the writers a bit lost with the relationship of nandor and guillermo, only putting it back together in s3. the only thing they were certain is that guillermo was supposed to be a vampire hunter.

"because like, hiring harvey has made them rewrite a whole season. or seasons, depending on how much they have done when they presented this idea to FX. and in such a short time. i think they probably had at least the plots for every episode from season one to season two, and they quickly rewrote it to fit Guillermo de la Cruz and then in season three they were like. we got this now. this is the relationship between nandor and guillermo." YEAH I wonder about this a lot, since they were kind of messing with the Nandor/Guillermo dynamic right from the get go and playing with the idea of a father-son dynamic in both seasons 1 and 2 before they clearly started moving to something more romantic in s3. with Harvey clearly seeing it as at least somewhat homoerotic right away. I don't know if most shows have stories plotted from the get-go or they just have the seeds of ideas, but clearly it would have been a very different pair if they kept some of the dynamic from that version of the pilot script.

that article I was referencing also said that there was a producer note that 'Guillermo should find some power' and that's why the curtain thing in episode 1 was written into the script (I know Harvey says he improvised it and idk if this is conflicting memories, or he meant the 'why Guillermo why?' thing, or what). but I think that decision was fairly last-minute too, which is why we only get the slayer reveal in the last episode of s1. and this is why I have the theory about Jenna and Shanice, because there's no way he wouldn't have interacted with the both of them on a deeper level if they kept those plots going, even by virtue of them just being similar ages and interwoven into the world in a way that would keep them in Guillermo's orbit.

but his chemistry with Kayvan is what kept winning out, and I think by s3 seeing the fan response to them as well (and how Harvey keeps highlighting it lol, even some s2 articles were bringing it up) they were like 'ok, clearly this is what works.' and yeah it's 100% speculation on my part, I have no idea how TV production typically goes, but that does make sense to me.

[strangerthings4theories]

The Demogorgon Is Billy’s Dark Reflection

At first glance, the Demogorgon seems irrelevant to the question of whether or not Billy’s coming back. But as I aim to prove, it has everything to do with it. 

Stranger Things deals heavily in the theme of reflections and opposites. Characters are designed to mirror each other, embody the opposite of each other, and sometimes both at once. Hell, the Upside Down is presented as a reflection of the real world. Literally.

(Damn. They ain’t subtle.)

By the term “dark reflection,” I mean a relationship like that between the Upside Down and the real world. The two are almost exact copies; the Upside Down has all the same landmarks, down to Will’s fort in the woods. But the Upside Down has been corrupted by the Mind Flayer, its inhabitants turned into unthinking monsters.

It’s like us. But it’s everything we hate about ourselves, everything we’re afraid of becoming.

When we probe relationships between characters, we find that pattern replicated across the board. I don’t have room to explore it in full here. However, Billy and the Demogorgon are one of the most obvious examples.

With the exception of El, the main character of the show, no one else has been compared to the Demogorgon like Billy has.

>>Billy fills the “monster” role in S3 that the Demogorgon filled in S1.

In S1, the Demogorgon stalks the inhabitants of Hawkins, kidnapping and killing them. In S2, we find out Demogorgons do not act alone, but are the puppets of a greater monster: the Mind Flayer. 

In S3, the Mind Flayer possesses Billy, turning him into His puppet. Billy then stalks the inhabitants of Hawkins, kidnapping and taking them to his master, which ultimately results in their deaths.

In S3, the Demogorgon wears a human face.

>>Like the Demogorgon, Billy is the puppet of a greater monster... even before he’s possessed.

Max tells us as much in Runaway Max when she’s watching Billy beat the life out of Steve:

I remembered how it had felt the first time I’d watched the Hargroves in action. Neil standing over Billy with the belt in his hand. Neil calling me a stupid little girl for having the guts to try to stop him. Making it so clear that he thought I was small and weak and pointless. And knowing Neil believed that still wasn’t as bad as the way Billy had hated me for trying to help him. He was damaged. Broken, maybe. And even if he’d been coherent enough to argue with, it wouldn’t make a difference. I understood now that Neil was in his head, and that meant he was just as dangerous as his father. (p 218)

This implies not only that Billy is the Demogorgon, but also that Neil is the Mind Flayer. The ramifications of that idea are... oof. Just oof.

Remember the definition of “dark reflection” that I gave you. A dark reflection is something that’s like us, but represents what we hate or fear most about ourselves.

The Demogorgon is Billy’s dark reflection because it represents his fear of losing his humanity to an abuser. 

>>Runaway Max draws on the grossest scene in S2 to give us a Billy/Demogorgon parallel.

In S2, Dustin finds a baby Demogorgon and names it D’Artagnan. At first Dart seems harmless. Then he molts and, in a scene I hate to watch, eats Dustin’s cat.

Keep in mind that Dustin’s cat is orange.

In Runaway Max, Billy seems harmless at first. Then, in a flashback to California, we’re told of the day Billy “molts.” 

One afternoon, he’s hanging out with Max and his buddies Wayne and Sid on the scrubby hill behind the Hargrove house. He’s bored and pissed at Sid for besting him on a history paper. Pulling out his lighter, he starts playing with it.

We learn there’s a corpse of a cat nearby:

There was a dead cat that had been lying under one of the sweet pea bushes for a while. A mangy orange tom with one white foot. (p 63)

Billy stalks over to it with his lighter. In a “hard, bright” voice, he talks about giving the cat a “Viking funeral.” Then, over Max and Sid’s protests, he drenches the corpse in butane and lights it on fire. The flames race down the hill, and the others have to stomp them out before they spiral out of control.

Max notes Billy’s reaction:

Billy just watched, standing over the burning cat, smiling that small, tight smile he got when something seemed funny to him....

After that, I knew.

Not that Billy was crazy or out of control, exactly - it wasn’t like the cat had been alive. But the fact that he’d done it meant something. (p 67)

Yeah, this scene means something, alright. Symbolically, Billy - a baby Demogorgon - has just eaten a cat. And, like Dustin with Dart, Max realizes he’s a monster in the making.

>>The show’s plot and cinematography choices emphasize the Billy/Demogorgon connection.

1) El first meets them in the Void. They’re both crouching, and literally or symbolically feasting, as she approaches from the right.

2) They stalk after the kids, shoulders hunched. In the Demogorgon’s case, the kids are trapped. In Billy’s case, he thinks he’s trapping the kids, but they turn the tables on him.

3) When the Demogorgon is activated, a crack rips through the tile wall of the lab. When Billy is activated, we see cracked tiles on the wall behind him.

4) El pins them against the wall with her powers. Then she screams in their faces before she deals the “death blow.” In the climactic shot, she’s on the left, they’re on the right. Mike and/or her friends are behind her.

All of that ^ is the equivalent of the Duffers banging pots and pans. “Hey guys! Billy is like the Demogorgon! The Demogorgon is like Billy!” When I first noticed it, it told me to look for other examples of “mirroring.” Do we get any other shots that juxtapose the two?

Turns out we do. Oh my god, we do.

Study this pair of shots very, very carefully.

In the first, the Demogorgon is approaching the Byers' house. It's in the center of the frame, moving straight toward us. We see woods in the background; a lamp post is on the left side.

In the second, Billy is running away from the sauna. He's in the center of the frame, moving directly away from us. We see woods in the background; a lamp post is on the right side.

I’ve already talked about how the Upside Down is the deep sea. However, it is ALSO the woods. In fairytales, the woods are a place of mystery and monsters. Some of the most famous tales happen there, such as Little Red Riding Hood and Hansel and Gretel. (If you want to read more about this topic, here’s a Wikipedia article to get you started. Also a cool article on Medium)

With that in mind, we can describe this pair of shots as follows:

In the first, the Demogorgon is emerging from the Upside Down.

In the second, Billy is going to the Upside Down.

Interesting, right? Ah, but that’s only half of the story.

Study this pair now and tell me what you see.

Yep... they’re related.

In the second shot, Billy is swimming into the ocean. It’s the last glimpse we have of his young, happy self before the Mind Flayer kills him. He’s in the center of the frame, moving directly away from us, just like the first shot.

With that in mind, we could say...

In the first, he’s going to the Upside Down in its ‘woods’ manifestation.

In the second - OUR LAST GLIMPSE OF YOUNG BILLY BEFORE HE DIES - he’s going to the Upside Down in its ‘ocean’ manifestation.

Interesting how we've only seen him leave. Yet we have this iconic image of the Demogorgon, his “dark reflection,” emerging from the Upside Down and coming to us.

I have a spooky vibe, y'all, that we're missing a final shot.

And we're going to see Billy... 

coming to us... 

from the water.

I have so much more to unpack here, but this post has gone on long enough! In future posts, I’ll lay out more evidence suggesting Billy will return from the water. I’ll also explore the mythological implications. They’re mind-blowing :3

»»————-　✼　————-««

P.S. I mentioned El has a unique relationship to the Demogorgon too. I’ll try to explain that eventually~~

»»————-　✼　————-««

The “Billy Is Alive” Meta Series (So Far)

Billy Is Not a ‘B’ Character In Stranger Things

The First Rule of Analyzing Stranger Things: The Upside Down Is Symbolized By Water

The Lifeguard And The Rip Current: Our First Big Hint That Billy Is Alive

Why Haven’t We Seen Dacre On Set?

Frequently Asked Questions

For updates, follow the hashtag #billy is alive meta

[salmonthestoryteller]

How to Side Character - RNM version

I know not everyone in the RNM fandom is a fan of Jenna Cameron.  I personally adore her and was saddened by her absence in s3. (I’ll keep my fingers crossed for her reappearance in s4.). But regardless of whether you like her as a character, she’s still pretty much a very good writing guide on “How to side character, even use them as a temporary love interest, without demoting them from side character to just Love Interest or Romantic Foil.”

Here’s the thing, Cam is both a temporary love interest, and a romantic foil.  But at no point is she just either of those things.  I’ve written a lot of complaints about how RNM keeps using side characters (or demoting characters) to “love interest” and/or “romantic foil.”  And I stand by those complaints. But I haven’t talked much about what the other side looks like. And, honestly?  The other side looks like Jenna Cameron.

She’s introduced first as Max’s work partner. Note that their first interaction doesn’t actually have to do with their relationship.  It actually has to do with revealing that Wyatt is the one who attacked the Crashdown Cafe. The fact that they’re hooking up doesn’t actually come out until the next episode.

As the story progresses, Cam starts to notice things like the damage to the electrical box Max powers up in the hospital and the symbol Wyatt draws. On top of that, she isn’t involved with these scenes because she’s Max’s love interest. She’s involved in these scenes because she’s his partner on the police force.  It’s logical for her to be where she is at these times, and her noticing them is used to further the plot.  She isn’t present in these scenes just to interact with Max and address their relationship - her being there and discovering these things is leading somewhere.

Because Jesse Manes, in a pair of scenes just between the two of them - no Max in sight - attempts to recruit her for Project Shepherd.  And, here’s a big one, in a complete solo scene with no other character - Cam texts Jesse to accept his offer. That’s huge.  Because look at a bunch of the characters who were “love interests” and list how many got scenes with no other character.  A scene just for them to advance the plot.

Now ask yourself how often side characters who are love interests/romantic foils have scenes with other characters. Ask if any of them were without the person they’re romantically linked to present. Then ask if the purpose of the scene is to further a plot, or if it mainly involves discussing or showcasing the romantic relationship.  Because Cam gets all of the above. She gets scenes in season 1 with Alex, Kyle, Maria, Liz, and Isobel. Most without Max present.  And most of those scenes are used to further the plot.  (In season 2 Michael gets added to the list of Jenna’s other character interactions.  As does Charlie, of course.)

I mean, technically, none of these requirements are that hard to fulfill. The non-love interest characters meet these requirements easily. Arturo, Michelle Valenti, Mimi, Ann Evans, Flint, Charlie, Eduardo; Dallas - all of them interact with multiple characters.  All of them have given information and/or advanced the plot in some way.  Heck, in season 3, Sheriff Taylor got more than one scene without main characters present that advanced the plot. How can they manage it so easily with all of these characters yet fumble it with love interests? I really am confused by this!

But take a look at the side characters who have had the misfortune of being love interests.  Steph existed in a complete bubble.  Both Forrest and Anatsa start out by giving out plot relevant information or being involved in an ongoing plot, but once they become love interests all connection to the actual plot stops altogether. Heath existed in a Steph-like bubble until after his connection with Dallas is revealed and only then is he allowed to start having scenes with other characters and be truly allowed to do anything plot relevant.  Why?  This is absolutely the wrong approach to take with these characters!

I came into RNM season 1 as a fan of the OG Roswell. I had never read Roswell High. I took time to read the series during the hiatus between seasons 1 & 2. So I was surprised to discover that Cam existed in the book series. In fact, her whole season 1 plot is a variation of her character’s plot from the books: Blackmailed by the book version of Project Shepherd to spy on the aliens.  Ends up on the aliens’ side instead.  Though book Cameron was romantically linked to Michael, not Max.  And she did betray them in a bigger way - which I’ve heard was the original plan for RNM Cam.  Pretty glad they chose a different path for her character.  But it does make me curious that the only “love interest” character to completely avoid falling into the pitfalls of just being a love interest is a character from the source material. While most of the rest were created specifically for RNM.

I’m just really hoping that they will take a look at how they wrote Cam’s story in season 1 and use it to correct their treatment for the love interest characters in season 4 - specifically Anatsa and Gregory. Both have the ability to be really great characters and I’d hate to see them go the way of Steph and Forrest.

[nikkiwriteswords]

Hi! I would love to hear your thoughts/predictions/hopes for s3, now that we got the episode titles :D

Hey Nora!! Let me go grab my tua theory hat real quick. Spoiler alert, it looks exactly like the umbrella hat on the 3 right here:

Full disclosure, I've only got like a pinky toe in the tua fandom right now, but I'm still going to see what BS I can spin from these titles.

1. MEET THE FAMILY. The description on imdb is "The siblings get to know some more of the 43 children in an alternate timeline." So, I think this is pretty self-explanatory. Netflix likes to start things off with a bang, so s3 of TUA will probably be no different: we'll probably get a vague flashforward/flash-sideways to a "what if" scenario that will make sense by the last few episodes, and the rest of the episode will be sowing seeds for the s3 plot. The big question is, what family are we meeting? I think this episode will revolve around themes of family (no-brainer) and redefining the relationships between our Umbrella siblings in light of the season 2 finale, as well as their new Sparrow 'replacements'. To that end, initial Sparrow sibling parallels will be presented and subsequently complicated in this first episode. I also predict we'll see varying reactions to this alternate Reginald, as the Umbrella siblings are thrust into an outsider perspective that follows on from season 2.

2. WORLD'S BIGGEST BALL OF TWINE. This is going to be a multi-layered metaphor. I can feel it. It will no doubt refer to the plot that's about to unfold (is it an outside threat to both parties - the Umbrellas and Sparrows - from, say, the Commission, or is it more to do with the two rival Academies?), but I wonder if it also refers to the Wizard of Oz type scenario the Umbrella siblings find themselves in: they aren’t in Kansas anymore. (But you know what is in Kansas? The world's current biggest ball of twine.) Also kind of want to see Klaus knitting again in this ep - perhaps as a way to subtly re-address his ongoing addiction issues, especially now Ben is gone.

3. POCKET FULL OF LIGHTNING. This probably has to do with powers. Sparrow powers, Umbrella powers. There'll be a lot of new flexes in this season, so who this refers to is anyone's guess.

4. KUGELBLITZ. Here's where it starts to get interesting, because this title carries forward the subject of lightning from the last one. According to a very quick internet search, kugelblitz literally means "ball lightning" in German, and refers to both a) a glorified WW2 tank designed to take out aircraft (a certified Big Boi), and b) a theoretical black hole made from light/radiation rather than matter. So this is absolutely going to be a new, unseen power - probably from the Sparrows. Hopefully from Christopher because a cube executing a move named after a sphere just makes me chuckle. Ah, fun with shapes... But in addition, this power is probably going to pack a huge, debilitating punch to whatever narrative is underway at this point in the plot. I'll bet money that whoever wields this power is the tank character in their party or they are after this at least.

5. KINDEST CUT. This throws me back to the barber shop meta, I'm not gunna lie. Someone's going to get hurt, either physically or emotionally, and it's going to be the lesser of two evils. If it's a follow through on the barber metaphor, then Reggie will be the one to orchestrate it. Or, in a surprise twist, will he be the one gTetting hurt or being silenced? (Remember that cutthroat allegory that chases the siblings through the first season, particularly Allison and Klaus. It was about becoming voiceless.) 6.MARIGOLD. Big shout out to this post for spreading the word on the marigold symbolism. I'm pretty sure this will be Reginald backstory, which ties in with the creation of the Umbrella Academy. Also, because I'm a sucker for flower symbolism and reading into things, consider that marigolds:

a) fall into two families, the calendula which means "little clock" and the tagetes, which is named after the Etruscan prophet Tages. The Etruscans believed heavily in predestination - some events are set in stone, and cannot be changed. (Consider the way the apocalypse seems to always come for one set of siblings...) b) are named as such colloquially because they were offered in place of money to the Virgin Mary. (More divine imagery, and reference to a pure mother figure...) They are Mary’s gold. So maybe it’s a reference to Reginald’s wife, which would fit with the flashback scene we see in 1x10.  c) are a flower of duality. They have strong connections with the sun and resurrection, yet the marigold is thought to be a flower of grief because it blooms in autumn. Again, think about that flashback in the first season. At the end of the world and a wife dying, there was the promise of rebirth. d) It's also a very common flower. Remember, there's actually 43 siblings out there. We've only met 14.

Also Netflix loves to do this thing around the halfway point (usually episode 5/6) in a season they're producing. They'll switch up the narrative with a twist or turn that provides a new perspective. 7.AUF WEIDERSEHEN. Once again, a German connection. And, obviously, a goodbye. Considering the last season focused on Kennedy, are we going to get some earlier Cold War time-travel shenanigans? Or maybe WW2? I think Blackman has said something about the Berlin Wall, which is interesting. A country divided... Umbrellas and Sparrows allegory? But as an aside, I'm also kinda lowkey hoping it's a nod to Auf Weidersehen, Pet. If you don't know the show, here's the wiki summary for the first season:

Auf Wiedersehen, Pet is a British comedy-drama television programme about seven British construction workers who leave the United Kingdom to search for employment overseas. They find work on a German building site in Düsseldorf but despite promises of hostel accommodation, are forced to live in a small hut that reminds them of a World War II POW camp. The rest of the series is driven by the interactions and growing friendships between the various characters.

In episode seven, three of the “Magnificent Seven” visit an intercontinental hotel. Just saying. If s3 was to go this route, my money would be on Luther, Diego and Five getting up to shenanigans in this one. I miss 125 shenanigans.😢

8.WEDDING AT THE END OF THE WORLD. Honestly, I’m holding out hope that one of our fave siblings gets married. I feel like that’s a trap though... Actually I feel like it might actually be a trap. As in, this is when the rising action really kicks it up a notch. But also remember the title of 1x01: We Only See Each Other At Weddings and Funerals. Maybe the siblings get split up, possibly in episode 3/4, and they’re trying to reunite through episodes 5-7. Also thinking about hotels and apocalypses...  There’s something very fatalistic about these titles so far. I have a feeling that the B-plot or the subtext is going to reveal a lot more about Reginald’s history and the destruction of his world.

9. SIX BELLS. This makes me think of church bells, which is some nice continuity with the wedding of the last title. But church bells are rung for all sorts of reasons - as a call to worship, or in celebration or mourning, or to tell the time. (Thinking back to those marigolds suddenly.) But why six? Now I’m thinking of bell ringing (change ringing), and the way different bells have different cord lengths to control the time of their chimes. It’s a highly mathematical process. Will this episode be Five’s time to shine? Will he coordinate his siblings through a large attack? 10. OBLIVION. Does anything even need to be said about this one? Hotel Oblivion baby ✌✌ Any further theorising would require more knowledge of the coming plot tbh.

Edit: I wrote most of this at 2am, so I’ve just tidied it up a little. Thank you for the ask, Nora! This was fun to think about. 

[whiskeyjack]

I absolutely hear you on a lot of what you said about Rio’s development this season, but I don’t think the show is saying that Nick’s comment about Lucy’s murder is what we’re supposed to think about it. That’s just what Nick thinks, and considering the way they’ve portrayed him, I really don’t think we’re meant to agree with him. In fact I thought we were supposed to do the opposite. Why do you think the show itself is reframing what happened through him? I’m curious in your reading of that

(x)

you know? you make an excellent point. this one also got unintentionally REALLY long, so it is too, under the cut haha

-shout out to @jade-marie and @00gangfriend00, without them I don’t know how coherent this entire response would be haha

Alright, well firstly, I think it’s unfortunately clear that even some of the show’s writers don’t actually have a good grasp on the events leading up to Lucy’s death, both during s3 and now. It seems like depending on who is talking, and the timing of the discussion, the answer will shift. It is… really hard to speculate sometimes when the writers don’t even know the reason behind a scene. However, since it’s canon - whatever the reason or goal of the scene - I’m just going to go on my merry way and create/keep my own interpretation.

The more I thought about your ask, the more I realized, yeah, through Nick’s scripted words alone, they aren’t necessarily reframing what happened, since Nick does seem to be unaware of much of the entire sequence of events regarding Lucy: “So… you were just gunna, what, keep it to yourself?”. Assuming the diner scene with the cop was the first time he heard about it, his impression most likely wouldn’t be a fair representation of what actually happened. So, this is me eating my own words from before, so I apologize for using his quotes to reinforce my idea. This is simply my opinion, and it does regularly change quite a bit… I am wrong a lot haha

To some degree, I think reframing or shifting of some sort is kind of unavoidable when a show continues a plotline from a previous season, especially in addition to incorporating new characters into the past events. Nonetheless, I do think that the show is deliberately in fact reframing Lucy’s death and why it happened - through Rio’s backstory & POVs, Nick’s character development, and the show’s choice to show Rio having a lack of scars.

1. The backstory and Rio POVs

According to the backstory we’ve been given so far, Nick is this person who apparently is so deeply entrenched in Rio’s life and decision-making but he doesn’t know 1) that Rio killed someone, 2) the fact that Rio killed Lucy for Beth (as opposed to killing Annie, Ruby or Beth), and 3) why, which makes me wonder how exactly they are using Lucy’s death as a plotline in combination with Nick and Rio’s relationship. As I said in my previous post, I believe that the events leading up to and including Lucy’s death were heavily tied into if not directly a reaction to the shooting in 2.13.

According to this season, it seems Nick is Rio’s backstory, and Rio is Nick’s. So far, we’ve gotten approximately eight Rio POV scenes, separate from the girls, including flashbacks (excluding the Fitz kill):

4.02:

-the police station

4.08:

-baby Rio (rotten eggs with Nick)

-teenage Rio (the boxing scene(s)/contrasted with Nick’s POV on the golf course)

-teenage Rio (locker room theft)

-teenage Rio (grandma/stove and locker room arrest)

-adult Rio (outside the police station)

-teenage Rio (with Nick, kitchen flashback - I think this is more just an omniscient POV, however)

4.09:

-the boxing scene (with Nick)

With the exception of the police station in 4.02, Nick has been present in some capacity in each one of these Rio POV scenes. Since it’s only been through the flashbacks that we’re getting the main context of their relationship, it’s clear that the storyline the show is perpetuating this season is that Nick and Rio’s characters are very tightly weaved together in some capacity. And have been historically.

Rio, as a teenager, was a victim of Nick’s early manipulative actions, but in the end, it made him money, so (we are able to gather) he was able to justify falling into a criminal relationship with him. After Rio’s six-month stint in prison, he spent (probably) the entire time resenting Nick (and also, this is where he most importantly - in my opinion - developed adult Rio’s mannerisms haha jk).

So, moving forward with this knowledge, let’s take a look at their adult relationship.

2. Nick’s character development (in relation to Rio)

First and foremost, with Rio, in s1-3, he was an enigmatic, charismatic, clever, powerful, king who loved money, was in charge of every decision, well-connected, and a man of few words etc etc. Now, while Rio is being given more facets as more and more of his relationship with Nick is revealed and explored: he is being illustrated as someone who is dependant on his likely long-time abuser. This may be the case, absolutely, but, in my opinion, takes away from the last three years of work the show put into the character Rio mentioned above, including Manny’s nuanced acting. The reveal of Nick’s current power dynamic over Rio (at least the abusive part) in this past episode was quite jarring and seemed incredibly OOC of the Rio I personally know and love from past seasons, and, it kind of came out of nowhere, in my opinion. To be clear, I have nothing against the storyline of Rio being a victim (have you read my fic? haha), but I think that the way they are progressing this storyline is too abrupt and lacks the subtleties that I would have preferred to see with something like this. Especially considering this is canon.

Returning to the original point though, by assuming this abuser/abused dynamic is where the show is taking Nick and Rio’s relationship, that means that Nick likely seeks to control Rio’s life and decisions as much as he can (props to @00gangfriend00 for this articulation). Related and important side note: @jade-marie pointed out to me that by setting a preceding occurrence of physical mistreatment, the show is (unintentionally) establishing Rio as someone who is stuck in a cycle of abuse, and who seems to seek out abusive relationships and probably misunderstands abuse as intimacy. Rio’s relationships with both Beth and Nick demonstrate this. How much shit they’re both clearly able to get away with, and still have power over him. Which I think is an incredibly problematic message to be sending. This is a critical point, especially regarding the scars/acknowledgement of the shooting, because it offers the writer’s an excuse to write off the entire shooting, and by doing so, they are validating this cycle of abuse. (I won’t apologize for this particular tangent, because I really hope the writers acknowledge the damage this storyline could do if they don’t properly see it through this season)

Since it was confirmed that Nick didn’t know about Lucy (even though Rio supposedly got the alibi of the boxing tickets from him) Rio was, presumably, hiding the true extent (or the entirety) of his relationship with Beth from him. Which - I think from a writer’s perspective - does benefit the show, if they choose not to circle back to the shooting. This also allows them the freedom to ‘pretend’ that Rio got over it by himself. Obviously, there are a lot of issues and plot holes with that in itself, but to me, because Lucy’s death wasn’t something that Nick already knew about, combined with the lack of clarity of who Beth is to Rio in Nick’s mind - he doesn’t know about either the shooting or the consequences of it.

3. The lack of scars

Alright, so lastly - the show’s decision to not put scars on Rio. I think this was absolutely a conscious decision, there must have been at least one person in the building that thought of the fact that a shirtless Manny without scars couldn’t just be brushed aside. As a result, I, personally, think this demonstrates that the show is done with shooting. Pretending it never happened, erasing the trauma, moving on, yeah. Obviously, as I said, I vehemently don’t agree with this direction but I think it’s clear it’s a storyline the show doesn’t want to circle back to. Otherwise, Nick would know about Beth and Rio’s history. Otherwise, Nick would know about Lucy. Otherwise, there would be scars. This is my own opinion of course, but I’m making it based off of a couple of Nick’s lines: “Did you [kill Lucy] for [Beth]?” and in 4.08 when he talks to Beth, “So what’s the deal with you and [Rio]? […] Anyone who wears a cardigan, shouldn’t be doing what he does.” He generally seems unaware of the true state of Beth and Rio’s history and is probably genuinely curious about it considering the amount of control he has (or wants to have) over Rio.

I think that because all of the Rio POVs we’ve had are linked to Nick, I made the jump that we are supposed to believe Nick’s influence is/was at the heart of many of Rio’s decisions in the past. Obviously, during s2 and s3 writing and production, they didn’t actually know they were going to get a s4 or do a Rio backstory, so the fact is, that the character they wrote called Rio then, was someone entirely different from today’s Rio. However, we’re watching different seasons of Good Girls, not a different show from one year to the next. I think because this is the backstory we’re getting, the show is implying that this was the case all along. That s2 and s3 Rio made all of those decisions with Nick, someone he was scared of, hanging over his head in some capacity. Or somewhere in his vicinity. That’s why I have a problem with the implication that Lucy’s death was phrased the way it was, without the scars present. They coated that dialogue with innuendos about Beth and Rio’s sexual history, which is also quite layered, but at least that connection I get. It reminds us that Rio was betrayed in more ways than one. However, without the scars present, and Nick seemingly unaware of the shooting, how does the show intend to justify Lucy’s death with the audience? None of it makes sense. Jade was so incredibly helpful; she cohesively summarized the events - by erasing 2.13, they are erasing Rio’s motivations for 3.05. I just want it to make sense 😩

[bakerolivias-archived]

i’m loving the new direction the plot is taking because there is no right or wrong side in this conflict (even tho i’m firmly on team kol and marcel), only ppl who epically fucked up because they wanted to survive. elijah and freya didn’t want to send a teenage girl to witch hell so her eyes could bleed out and her soul could shred into pieces, or whatever freaky torture voodoo the ancestors did to her, but the reason is valid in the world they live in: they needed to put down lucien and save their family, and by that other conflict that still needs to be resolved davina’s collateral damage. marcel’s obvs pissed because the mikaelsons always told him he was part of the family and they still betrayed him and sacrificed the child he loved as a daughter for their own interests, and while the mikaelsons obvs genuinely love marcel and see him as a son they never considered his own parental attachments because davina was not their family by either blood or via emotional bonding, and only kol and marcel loved her that way.

and it’s especially interesting given klaus is finally considering that maybe ppl outside the fam aren’t immediately expendable and perhaps their lives matter, which juxtaposes nicely compared to his actions from TO s1 and tvd, and to elijah and freya’s now fractured moral compass. they justify their actions to say “they didn’t have a choice,” but klaus knows that’s not true because he spent the last two years growing and evolving and reevaluating his decisions and relationships and he’s learned there is never just one choice, even if none of the choices presented fall into the black and white simplistic categories of morality.

klaus understands what they did was wrong, and he loves his family, but he loves marcel too, and isn’t ready to believe that marcel’s valid emotional state doesn’t matter in regards to the bigger picture. he understands marcel’s righteous anger and makes a genuine attempt to reach out and connect, not out of manipulation or to force marcel to cater to the Mikaelson’s interests but out of real love. he views marcel as a son, and he genuinely meant it, but marcel’s not in a position to accept klaus’s definition of their relationship because he’s in a volatile state of grief and there’s so much baggage between him and klaus and his own adoptive daughter just died. he considers it proof that the mikaelsons will disregard emotional attachments and adoptive relationships if the person lacks mikaelson dna at the drop of a hat if it means preserving their own interests.

also, the way marcel called out the mikaelsons’ thirst for power and superiority was v interesting because there’s obvs subtle layers to that dynamic. he accuses klaus of “creating” lucien, not by turning him into a vampire but by constantly disrespecting him and treating him like he was worthless and a “stableboy,” and that rampant classicism had a role in making lucien the crazed power obsessed lunatic he became. klaus won’t take responsibility for lucien’s actions, and lucien may have deserved to die, but nonetheless klaus definitely played his own part in lucien’s demise. to marcel, the mikaelsons are the family who adopted and loved him, yes, but they also represented power and white saviorism and general classism, disrespecting whomever they saw fit of a “lower station” and not letting ppl become more powerful, especially those lower on the totem pole, out of a preservation of their ego.

i hope this storyline becomes more fully fleshed out and explored because it’s probs the most interesting of all of s3

[roccinan]

Hello, I’m quite new to this fandom and I was curious as to if anyone else feels the same: I started reading fanfics and was so surprised at the way Martin is portrayed in many fanfics… And then I saw your post on tropes you didn’t like and it listed “dom/sub outside the bedroom”. Do you feel like Martin is too often portrayed as the sub in AND outside the bedroom? Because when I started reading I expected to mostly find fics where they either switch or where Andres is a power bottom but no??? And I mean they’re literally almost each others mirror image so I expected people to definitely write them like equals outside what happens in the bedroom. And obviously everyone is allowed to like and write what they like, but I personally don’t understand why Martin is portrayed so often as “lesser”/“weaker” than Andres (e.g. he’s always the one who cries/has to be comforted, never Andres, Martin sometimes has all the traits of a straight romance novel woman)I feel like Andres often is portrayed as if he is more… powerful, more intelligent, almost superior(?) to Martín which I did not understand. Honestly if either of the two is more intelligent, it should be Martín right? Because he’s actually the one with the degree in engineering (okay sure that doesn’t mean *everything*, but still….). I feel like they’re equals and they treat the other that way, as if both of them are gods, not as if only one of them is. Like I said, everyone is allowed to write and like whatever they want, I was just curious if I’m the only one who feels this way?!Then again, I might just have a very different opinion/interpretation of Berlermo than most people because I’d also expect Andres to be a malewife (I mean look at how he brags about Martin (“greatest minds in engineering”, *looks at Martin*)to Sergio, that feels 1000% trophy husband being proud of his succesful husband’s achievements……) if he had an actual relationship with Martin and I don’t feel like that opinion is shared a lot too lol

I hope this was understandable instead of one long chaotic drabble but either way, #MalewifeAndrésrights2k21

Hi anon! Don't worry- I understood this ask, and I've been thinking about how to answer. Hopefully I'm not leaving out any of your points in my answer, and of course, you don't have to agree with me (or anyone else in this fandom)- we're all equals here! Like you said, everyone has their own preferences and can write what they want- so this answer is just my (and maybe yours!) personal opinion.

LOL I assure you, anon, you are not the only one who feels this way. I actually had similar thoughts when I first started reading berlermo fics- tbh, I read a few before watching s3/4, and the Martin in those fics was a completely different person from the man I saw on screen (in both present and past timelines). I was expecting a likable uwu character, and Palermo was honestly a True Asshole lmao- so obviously, I was much more interested in the latter ;) But it was very hard getting behind um, particular portrayals after watching the show. In fact, I was so disturbed by this 1 fic (don't remember the plot or the author- just how Wrong it made me feel) that I decided to write my own. All I remember was Martin gaslighting Andres repeatedly, and the author acting like Andres was the bad guy?? it just felt very wrong to me.

To answer, yes, I do think Martin is portrayed as a sub in and out of the bedroom too often. Personally, I don't care who submits to who in bed, and there are plenty of bottom!Martin stories I've enjoyed. But it rubs me the wrong way when Martin's also like that in all aspects of his life and what he does in bed shouldn't have anything to do with that. In canon, I also thought that Andres and Martin saw each other as equals, with Palermo literally and metaphorically replacing Berlin. He's not a "lesser" Berlin- he was his equal, his partner. And I think there's nothing wrong with a story where say, Martin lets Andres pick what they're having for dinner or the color of their outfits- but the key words is lets. It's a choice.

There's no solid evidence that Martin just submits to all of Andres' commands because he's too spineless to say no. I've seen some common arguments for their dom/sub dynamic outside the bedroom based on the fact that Martin didn't stop Andres from leaving the monastery in 4x08. But I just don't see it. 1) They were both crying in that scene, not just Martin 2) literally anyone in Martin's position would have been too disoriented to perform some grand romcom gesture 3) Andres made it clear he didn't want anything more with Martin (whether or not this is the truth is up for debate, but vocally he basically said "no"), so unless Martin decided to do something non-consensual to the man he loves/respects more than anything in the world, he literally had no choice but to let Andres walk away. Because the other things he could have done to "disagree" with Andres' choice are NOT PRETTY.

The same applies for Martin supposedly standing by and doing nothing while Andres marries 5 times. I don't know what else Martin could have done. He was under the assumption that Andres is straight, and even if he sensed that Andres wasn't, Andres believed himself straight. Martin respected that. He loves Andres, he'd indulge him in anything, but he wouldn't force Andres into anything he doesn't believe Andres wants. It's one of the few selfless and decent traits Martin has, and I'm not fond of it being reduced to just him being a "sub."

That said, I also much prefer it when they switch and I think power bottom Andres is just as valid as top/bottom Andres or bottom/top Martin (and I think of them both as power bottoms when they're in that position lol). Not that fic needs to be realistic, but switching is more common irl than people think. In fact, top Martin is pretty much confirmed by canon, given how he treats Helsinki both when he's being "mean" to him AND when he's being "nice" to him- Martin 100% led their relationship in and out of bed. And he does it so naturally that I think it's safe to say that's how he typically acts with the men in his life.

Hopefully, I'm not getting too far off track from your ask! But I wanted to add on that given how misogynistic both Andres/Martin are and how hard it was for Andres to "accept" his bisexuality in the first place, I think it's more likely that during their first time in bed, Andres would top. imo, He'd prefer to top for a good while until he both realizes that bottoming won't affect his masculinity and his horniness for having Martin inside him gets the better of him. But that's just my personal take. I only bring it up because in that situation, it's not that Martin CAN'T top Andres because of some inherent inferiority complex or weakness, but because he wants Andres to be comfortable. For me, it's less "Martin is too much of a sub to do anything but bottoming" and more "Martin prefers to top but he is willing to bottom for Andres."

Moving on to your other points, I really don't know why Martin is portrayed as weaker than Andres to such a noticeable extent? I assume it's because he's like a few cm shorter? Because people related to the unrequited love subplot and over-projected onto the character? Or over-sympathized with him? I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, since I really don't sympathize very much with either Martin or Andres. The only time I projected on Martin was that time I wrote him dealing with bad customer service lol. I think Martin has an ego in canon that he totally earned because in his words, he's a genius, and that's not something we should ignore when it comes to his character.

As for Andres being powerful and superior and even more emotionally mature sometimes(??!), it just goes hand-in-hand with Martin being written as the weaker one first. It's not always badly done, but it can be offputting (for me) when done too extremely. Like, there's nothing wrong with a good angst or hurt/comfort story, Andres caring for/comforting Martin, etc. I've enjoyed reading and writing those once in a while too. And again, people can read/write what they prefer and how they see things, just like we can do the same! Everyone's entitled to their own interpretation and opinion.

I just don't like it when it's too extreme, when Martin is offensively pitiful and Andres only exists to fix Martin's life and/or somehow being his "tormentor" at the same time. I don't really like this trope most of the time, because it's less a berlermo story and more a story about an overly self-pitying Martin and a cardboard lover with no life or feelings of his own.

And it might just be my personal tastes, but when the power dynamic is so skewed between them (Ex. Andres believes himself a god but Martin believes himself an ant instead of a man) , I find that version of Martin extremely unattractive and don't know what Andres sees in him. In the berlermo dynamic, I believe Andres loves Martin because he sees Martin as his other half and his worthy equal. Without that, I just can't buy into their relationship, and um, a partner who's constantly doubting your love for them or clinging to you every hour of the day is Not fun- if I was Sergio and saw someone acting like that with my brother, I too would encourage Andres to leave him.

Circling back to your point, LOL YES Martin is objectively the more booksmart and intelligent one (maybe Andres is more talented/knowledgeable in the fine arts but definitely not in the engineering aspects). And Martin pretty much built 80% of the Bank Heist, with Andres just being there for moral support or something lol (it's like a project where Martin did all the work and then added Andres' name to it). There's nothing I see to indicate Andres' "superiority" to Martin, nor do I think Andres thinks of himself as superior to Martin (and even if he did, certainly not by That much asdfadf).

"I feel like they’re equals and they treat the other that way, as if both of them are gods, not as if only one of them is." THIS. I completely agree with this! It's how I see it too- they see each other as Superior to everyone but each other, and in Andres' case, he definitely thinks that everyone should worship both his and Martin's feet.

It's like you said- everyone has a different opinion/interpretation of berlermo but that doesn't mean there's a right answer or that just because something is the majority opinion, it's the right one. It happens all the time in fandoms- there's some fanon or headcanon that gets popular, and it becomes the dominant one. It's popular, maybe there's reason behind it maybe there isn't, but most of the time, it's just because 1 person did it- people liked it- so another person copies it, etc. etc. Nothing wrong with that, but if you don't see it, you're not wrong either.

For example, I was really into Kirk/Spock once. When I was looking at fics for the reboot films, bottom Kirk was more popular. But when I looked at fics for the original series, bottom Spock was more popular. I didn't mind either, but those were written for pretty arbitrary reasons, like reboot!Kirk was younger and more immature, TV!Kirk was older and nicer, reboot!Spock was angstier, etc. None of it was actual evidence for anything.

I can at least assure you that everyone, regardless of what berlermo dynamic they prefer, sees Andres as Martin's malewife haha! He's totally Martin's trophy husband more than happy to be malewife eye candy while he brags to everyone nearby about how amazing Martin is. That opinion is very much shared by almost everyone ;)

So yes, #MalewifeAndrésrights2k21, always and forever!

And I hope that my long, chaotic answer makes sense to you too, anon! Have a nice day/night!