#i'm very protective of mary because fandom goes

[edwinas]

You're right about the part where Anthony still got the end focus of the dinner instead of Mary or her family, that part shifted the scene away from them so outside of the writing of it, it could come off as him 'saving' their family when really he just caused further problems for them.

I honestly wish we got even just one scene with Kate and Mary after that dinner though because I do feel like Kate really didn't know the full truth about why Mary and her parents were estranged until now. So much of the nuance behind her decision and Mary and Edwina's reactions gets lost within the writing because now, people keep saying that both were "ungrateful" to Kate when really they were shocked and hurt. Mary's line about Kate "keeping so much from her" was definitely tied back to her making that deal with the Sheffields, and it sucks that only Kate and Edwina's conversation afterward was put in because it had to do with the engagement but not Mary and Kate, who have their own dynamic. Mary in general suffers from a lack of proper development and focus because I guess the writers couldn't work around the fact that Kate had to be a parental figure to Edwina? Which makes no sense because Anthony is sort of one to his own siblings, but you still see Violet take care of the younger siblings at least. They could've easily included her more in Edwina's scenes and have her just BE more with Kate.

Yep, the way that dinner was framed with Anthony playing the white knight and playing such a BIG part was a racist trope. And it encroached on some much needed Mary characterisation. What better time for us to get to know her than through her relationship (or lack of) with her parents??? And her life was so interesting and unusual? How many young women from the ton have moved countries??

So I totally agree with Mary not being developed! As you said, Mary being involved in her daughters' lives now doesn't change the fact that Kate raised Edwina. We can still get Edwina looking to Kate and Kate continuing to be involved in Edwina's matchmaking. I still have no idea what the show was going for with Mary. She either had great scenes or was a background character with no lines. No in-between.

YES WE NEEDED MARY AND KATE TALKING AFTER THE DINNER. The Sheffield dinner was important for Mary too: she reconnected with her parents after 20+ years. We should have seen more about Mary and what led her to leave the ton. I don't think it was simply her "running away." The situation must have been so untenable that Mary thought the only choice she had was to leave for India with her young children. A Mary-Kate chat would have been a chance to shed light on Mary's past, that Kate didn't know/remember. For Kate and the audience to understand Mary better.

[samwhump]

a (very inexhaustive, wincest-heavy) sam whump reclist

@transfemmesam asked me for Sam whump recs a few days ago, and I've had other requests in the same vein before (I can't imagine why.../s) so I thought I would throw this together, since these authors deserve all of the love and support for their contributions to our li'l fandom corner.

like I mentioned in the title, this is not at all a comprehensive list; I have at least ~200 more fics in my to-read queue that could thematically fit here, but alas, I have stupid shit like a job and a body and a dog to take care of, so. I'm always happy to get recs along these lines, so if you notice anything important missing, hit me UP. (and don't take any omissions as any specific commentary by me -- it's likely I just haven't had the chance to read it yet, haha.)

disclaimers:

some (most, honestly) of these contain potentially triggering and dark content, including but not limited to rape/noncon, torture, and suicidal attempts & ideation. I have tried to note content warnings where applicable, and most of the works are hosted on ao3, so the tags should have most of the information you need to make an informed decision. that being said, tread with caution. all of the summaries provided are from the original author, with warnings added after by me.

the list is in alphabetical order and separated into wincest and gen categories. a lot of the gen is also focused on the sam & dean relationship, because...I am what I am. and what I am a sucker for these two dipshits. there is also a brief section at the end with a few fics that don't fit into either category.

gen

All That Goes Unspoken by amnesiawife:

A case forces Sam to confront something long kept buried. (Set nebulously in season 12.)

CW: discussions of past rape/noncon, victim blaming

Beneath the Trees 'verse by Lise (5 works total, starting with Beneath the Trees, Where Nobody Sees):

Sam doesn't go to Stanford. Everything goes downhill from there.

CW: suicidal ideation

a boy is a cage by ad_castra:

After expelling Gadreel from Sam's body, Dean thinks they're in the clear. If only they were that lucky. // S9 fic wherein Gadreel's grace causes some adverse side-effects in Sam's mind.

CW: past referenced rape/noncon, body horror

body of proof by Askance (doomcountry):

There are things Sam hasn't told his brother. They're all in the envelope laid on Dean's pillow.

CW: heavy discussion of past rape/noncon

break these bones 'til they're better by redskyatmorning:

After Sam’s torture at the hands of the British Men of Letters, the latest in a long string of violations, he is rescued by Dean and Mary – and forced to ponder his broken relationship with his own body. Months later, when Sam is resurrected and tormented by Lucifer yet again, Dean confronts Mary and Sam gets his revenge against the devil.

catching my death (staring out an open window) by ad_castra:

Sam gazes at the window, catches the faint pink hue tinting the sky. It’s so realistic - he could breathe in the fresh air if he were really here. ----- They got Sam out. Sometimes, just knowing that isn't enough.

CW: implied past rape/noncon

Death of Convenience by WilsonTheMoose:

It should have been easy. Wendigos are no joke but daylight slows them. The weather's been unpredictable though and perfect, idyllic hunts don't exactly stay that way where they're concerned. Or Sam has one card to play and never stops to think that Dean would care if he killed himself.

CW: suicidal ideation, references to suicide

Echoes of Hell by The_Nightbreaker:

It wasn't real. He wasn't in Hell anymore. That's what he tried to tell himself over and over. But two centuries of torture don't disappear in a day. Sam struggles with visions of Hell, fighting to maintain his grip on reality. Dean hates that he can't protect his brother from what isn't real—but curse him if he doesn't try. When the boys stumble on a case with ties to the Devil himself, will they be able to pull themselves together in time to stop the sacrifices? Or will the echoes of Hell finally overtake them? Aka, season 7, but the plot is Hell trauma, not leviathans.

CW: suicidal ideation

Evening Shadows by withthekeyisking:

Sam is hallucinating the monster who tortured him for nearly two centuries, Dean feels like he's failing his brother, and a diner waitress bears witness.

CW: past rape/noncon

Everything Dies Given Time by Lise:

AU from 5.03. Sam discovers something wrong with himself, and learns to live with it. Only a lot less functional.

CW: suicide/temporary character death

The Freedom to Be Loud by jribbing:

It hadn’t occurred to Dean that maybe Sam remembered so much about that little nowhere town because something memorable had happened there.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

golgotha by redskyatmorning:

There’s a vacancy on the throne of hell, and Sam is desperate enough to save Dean from Michael’s possession to give into the abyssal depths of his own darkness.

Head Space by ameliacareful:

A witch curses Sam leaving him blind, deaf, and bedridden. Left with only the inside of his own head and the occasional touch, Sam begins to unravel.

CW: suicidal ideation

Hiraeth by inkandpaperqwerty:

(n.) a homesickness for a home to which you cannot return, a home which maybe never was; the nostalgia, the yearning, the grief for the lost places of your past "Dean... I made a really big mistake." For a second, Dean actually thought things were going okay. He was out of Hell, Sam agreed to stop drinking demon blood, they had just wrapped up a successful hunt... for once, everything was okay. And then it wasn't. "I overdosed." Not at all.

CW: suicide attempts, suicidal ideation

if i could leave (i would've already left) by serendipity0930:

“I have a mission from God for you,” the Angel whispers to the man. “It is time for you to do what you were born to.” The man’s face twists into a smile, delighted over being chosen by Him, a purpose from God digging into his heart, carving out a place to fester. “Hunt.” ... 05x03 AU where Zachariah is even more determined to keep the brothers apart and hunters are all too willing to take Lucifer's True Vessel off the board for good

CW: referenced suicide

It's A River (But Not In Egypt) by Lise:

He's still a liar. Maybe always has been.

CW: toxic Sam/Lucifer dynamics

Kindred Instruments by PinBitch:

They’re in a tug of war and Sam is the rope. He doesn’t need to be alive for that. OR Sam dies in detox, being flung against the walls of a metal box will do that to you. Dean and Ruby pick up the pieces.

CW: temporary main character death, permanent supporting character death

lazarus trick by katsidhe:

Sam's alive, so everything is gonna be okay. 13.22 coda.

Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence by Lise:

Sam's back. He's in one piece. That's the problem.

CW: self-harm

love is like ghosts by redskyatmorning:

I’m poison, Dean had said instead of I’m sorry. Well, Sam wants to say, what does that make me? What the hell does that make me? (A look into Sam's mind in the aftermath of the Gadreel possession.)

The Other Brother by RadioFriday:

Sam and Adam are pulled from the cage at the same time. Sam is not right, and Adam, stuck as his caretaker, is not pleased.

Oxygen by inkandpaperqwerty:

“Cas! Cas, please! Please, answer me! Cas!” Castiel ignores Dean for several minutes, but then Dean gives him an opening that might help him complete his mission. So, he goes to investigate, and what he finds is a very bloody, nearly dead Sam. Dean tells him where the injuries came from, and Castiel quickly becomes confused. It doesn't make sense, but Dean tries to explain it to him, and slowly... Castiel begins to understand.

CW: suicide attempt

Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc by AmberSock:

Sam waits, kneeling, for his execution. What if Dean hadn't missed?

CW: temporary character death

Safety In Distance by GalaxyThreads and SpiritClusters:

The Mark of Cain is a brand of violence. Sam was an idiot to think that he'd be exempt from it, just because he and Dean are siblings.

sometimes a kind of singing by adi_rotynd:

Sam gets cursed. They're dealing with it. Jack can see souls. That one they're not dealing with quite as well.

CW: past referenced rape/noncon

Soul Windows by GalaxyThreads and Spirit Clusters:

A few months after his birth, Jack learns how to see souls. Then he comes to a realization about the Winchester brothers, Sam in particular, and it's not a pleasant one. (gen)

Starry Night by keepcalmsmile:

Sam attempts suicide-by-monster. Dean tries to help. It sort of works...until it doesn't.

CW: suicide attempts, suicidal ideation

such fragile, broken things by The_Bookkeeper:

Sam wishes that Dean would just get it over with already.

The Tale of Sir Galahad by keepcalmsmile:

Sam once said he could never be clean like Sir Galahad. Dean assumed he was just talking about the demon blood. Turns out, Sam was talking about something else too. WARNING: Extended discussions of the aftermath of rape and childhood sexual abuse (but NO description of the actual events). Happy(ish) ending, but potentially very triggering.

CW: past rape/noncon, mentioned CSA

They Hammered in His Teeth by jribbing:

Sam has a secret.

CW: suicidal ideation

today's troubles (are history tomorrow) by a_good_soldier:

"It's not really something I know how to share," Sam had said. In which Dean figures he ought to help Sam out a bit.

Touch and Go by themegalosaurus:

Tag to 9.19 (Alex Annie Alexis Ann) in which Dean realises why, exactly, Sam is so angry about what happened with Gadreel.

trust fall by ad_castra:

“I’m nothing like you,” Sam hisses. Nevermind relating to the anguish of going it alone. Nevermind that he knows what it is to be strapped down and forcibly cleansed against his will. Sam wonders if these trials are purifying Crowley as well. 

Words Like Glass by broken_cinders:

Dean never figured the cage wouldn't leave a mark. He was prepared for memories, flashbacks, and nightmares. He wasn't expecting the words Sam brought back with him or the way they made him seem just a breath beyond Dean's reach.

Wound and Unwound by fascra:

Sam stops eating spring of his freshman year.

CW: eating disorder

wincest (dean/sam)

Brittle by thecapn:

Sam Winchester has an eating disorder.

CW: eating disorder

Don't You Cry No More by sixtysevenlmpala (schittyfic):

The first time Sam gets badly hurt on a hunt, he doesn’t cry. Dean does.

Fall On Your Knees by dollylux:

Sam doesn't quite make it home on the last day of school before winter break.

The Fall Will Probably Kill You by killabeez:

Set between 7.04 and the aftermath of 7.07. Dean is not as okay as he'd like you to think. Neither is Sam.

CW: self-harm

Feels so good to feel again by Trojie:

The pain keeps Lucifer at bay, at least to start with.

Follow In Your Form by withthekeyisking:

Sam is hallucinating Lucifer in the wake of Cas bringing his Hell Wall crashing down. To make matters worse, it seems like this has his dormant powers flaring back to life.

Last Temptation by merle_p:

Sam is running a fever again, the kind of fever no Ibuprofen or cold compress will bring down, the kind of fever that is eating him up alive, eviscerating him from the inside. He is too hot and too cold and too pale, delirious and shaking, resonating with whatever divine energy the trials are subjecting him to, and Dean is not sure how much longer he can stand to see him be in this state. Because Sam is quite possibly dying, and there is nothing Dean can do to stop it. Because Sam is dying, and he just. Won’t. Shut. Up.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

leeches by Anonymous:

Sam discovers a spell to make everybody forget him. He’s convinced it’s for the best. Pre-Stanford.

CW: attempted kidnapping/torture

Make Thick My Blood by themegalosaurus:

“You’re going to kill me, Dean,” Sam says, eventually. And all Dean can say is, “I think I am.” A season 10 AU, set after 10x14 ('The Executioner's Song'). Cas finds a solution that might cure the Mark of Cain; but if they're going to go through with it, Sam has a terrible price to pay.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

Prophecy of an Abomination by ashitanoyuki:

Sam is kidnapped by fanatically religious hunters and crucified. Coming back from this won't be easy. Canon-divergent from midway through season 2.

Recall by De_Nugis:

Sam's having a hard time telling what's real and what isn't, especially when it comes to some voicemails from Dean.

The Room Upstairs by brokenlittleboy:

Sam comes back from hell, but he’s inside-out and all wrong, and Dean can’t fix him.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

Ruin You (and its companion fic Worth) by Mumble_Bee:

Cole fucks Sam with Demon!Dean watching from a devil's trap, snarling that anyone would dare touch what was his. “I told you I don’t care what you do to his face or his blood or his fucking nose,” Dean growled, “but you put your dick anywhere near him and I will end you.” “Better hurry up then, Dean, because I don’t think I can wait much longer.”

CW: explicit rape/noncon

Snowed In by HelloStarlingFics:

When working a case, Sam and Dean get stuck out in a shack in the woods when the snow comes in hard and fast. Trouble is, Sam’s hated the cold ever since the Cage. Time for Dean to step up and look after him.

Wake by minchout:

Gadreel has had Sam for four years, and Dean, lost in guilt and obsessed with finding a way to get his brother back, has isolated himself in a cabin in the Missouri Ozarks with nothing but the woods, a stray dog, some chickens, and all the books the Men of Letters had to offer to keep him company. Then Sam shows up one day without his passenger, and Dean learns quickly that it doesn't matter that Sam is with him again - there is still a lot of work to be done before they can find their way back to each other.

Wanting to Forget by morganaDW (morgana07):

1-shot. S1 fic. After getting Sam freed from the Benders Dean thinks all he has to cope with is some bruises and cuts. He learns quickly just how wrong he is when Sam wakes up with a nightmare, reliving his brief but bad captivity in every detail. Sam just wants to forget & Dean has to try to get him to let him help. Will one night of cruelty and pain ruin what’s been formed between them?

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

when I wake up I'm afraid, somebody else might take my place by quake_quiver:

Sam doesn’t remember the last time he cried for Dean like he did that night. And now it’s been…two weeks. Maybe more. Sam is tired, and in pain, and starting to doubt that Dean’s going to show up. He’s weak and shaking from a combination of constant pain and hunger. Sam longs for Dean. Dean would make it better. Dean would fix it.

CW: rape/noncon, body horror

Wire Inside Me by merle_p:

There are a lot of things Sam hates about his current condition, to the point where he sometimes feels for the gun under his pillow at night, blindly toys with the safety, imagines pressing the muzzle into the underside of his chin and pulling the trigger just to make it stop. But there’s nothing he hates as much as the shadows he sees in Dean’s eyes whenever his brother is looking at him these days. It’s not an expression he remembers ever seeing before, but Sam thinks it’s probably something like revulsion. Horror. Disgust. What else could it be.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon, body horror, forced pregnancy

Worth (and its companion fic Ruin You) by Mumble_Bee:

Episode 10x01 "Black" where Dean is a human, and very, very, pissed off to hear someone has hands on his brother. “It’s nothing personal,” Cole whispered into Sam's ear, too quietly for Dean to hear, “but I need to kill your brother, and I need him off his game when he gets here. I don’t wanna hurt you, kid, but I’m going to, anyway. I’m going to hurt you a lot."

CW: explicit rape/noncon

you'll never see us again by according2thelore:

Then finally, his eyes trail over to Dean. His pupils are pin-point thin, and his hair is straggling in his face so Dean can’t see most of what expression lies there. Sam usually wakes up from nightmares in one of three attitudes: confusion, fear, or calm. A scary, sense-prickling calm that Dean hates more than anything else. Resignation, almost. Or: Sam suffers from nightmares and touch starvation post-Cage. They do their best to deal.

other Sam/Lucifer noncon

Cage Fight (No Way To Do This Right) by Dyed_Red:

Sam’s visit to the cage is already going awry, but Dean’s one-man rescue ends up skidding it sideways into territory neither him or Sam are ready for. (Gratuitous episode scene re-write. If Cas hadn’t come till after, if he hadn’t been there yet when Dean ran down to the 'parole' cage after hearing Sam scream - how bad could it have got for the brothers before he made it?)

CW: graphic rape/noncon

Into Being by withthekeyisking:

When Sam wakes up in the cave on Apocalypse World after having been killed by vamps, it's not just to find Lucifer there with him. It's to find him in him.

CW: graphic rape/noncon, necrophilia, forced pregnancy

Reggie/Tim/Sam noncon

a pointless resistance for you by withthekeyisking:

Sam doesn't know how long he's been with Tim and Reggie by the time Dean shows up and tries to take him out of there. Long enough that's he's already lost one baby and is pregnant with the next. Long enough that this life is starting to feel like all he knows.

CW: graphic rape/noncon, forced pregnancy & miscarriage, victim blaming

screaming birds sound an awful lot like singing by withthekeyisking:

Sam has done his best to move past what Tim and Reggie did to him, pretending it never happened at all. But running into them again makes that very difficult—especially when Dean gets involved.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

Waste 'Em All by withthekeyisking:

When Tim and Reggie try to force the demon blood down Sam's throat, he spits it back out. He has no interest in being turned into their own personal attack dog. They don't...take it well.

CW: explicit rape/noncon

[myyoungroyalsblog]

Red, White and Royal Blue fic rec part 2 (part 1)

*Note: I have a lot of unfinished fics in my subscriptions but since there are over 120+ fics there from other fandoms too I won’t be able to add those, when they are finished I’ll do another post in the future!

*Also couldn't find some of these writers here on tumblr, if you know tell me and I’ll add their @ beside it!

MULTI-CHAPTER

Things I Cannot Accept

18 chapters, 69.703 words

By @sprigsofviolets AU where Ellen lost the election in 2016 and Henry and Alex reconnect in 2019. Super cute and interesting story, with a lot of fluff and angst, amazingly written!

Captious (calculated to confuse, entrap or entangle in argument)

3 chapters, 14.256 words

Blind date AU... Well... Sort of... You'll know when you read it hehe but honestly so so sweet with a bit of angst but so much fluff!

My Only Wish (This Year)

7 chapters, 26.374 words

By @dracowillhearaboutthis AU where Henry marries a woman and has two daughters, set 10 years later and Alex and Henry reconnect, and maybe a romance blooms... Of course it does lol very cute kid fic (with a bit of angst too) but still lots of fluff!

Comfort Crowd

8 chapters, 12.098 words

To all the boys I've loved before AU, I don't like the film but since I'm such a sucker for these two of course I read it and got obsessed with it afajsgshsvsg

And they call it—

2 chapters, 10.148 words

By @clottedcreamfudge AU where Alex can talk to animals, so when Henry needs a dog sitter he goes to Alex, and he and David obviously talk about Henry. So funny and fluffy, guaranteed to make you smile!

(do i really have to tell you) how he brought me back to life?

7 chapters, 38.498 words

By @coffeecatsme High school AU where Henry gets kicked out by Mary and lives with Alex's family. A whole lot of angst and a whole lot of fluff, just a superb story!

I'm Taking A Ride With My Best Friend

23 chapters, 79.302 words

By @cultofsappho The Last of Us AU where Henry is immune and Alex helps him get to the fireflies in hopes to create a vaccine. If you've watched the tv show or played the game, you know how this goes lol could not recommend it enough, so much angsty but has fluffy moments too! And the writing is impeccable

i'd lie

6 chapters, 18.058 words

AU where Alex and June move to England with thier mum and have the Fox family as their neighbours, we see the super six throughout the years and how Henry lies might not work anymore... If you want angst, this is the fic for you

ONE SHOT

talk too much

3.307 words

By @lazybug16 Alex has his wisdom teeth removed and Henry takes care of him, just fluff fluff fluff, super adorable (yes self promo because I'm very proud of this fic, I love it)

I trace your constellations

13.498 words

Soulmates, coffee shops and demi Henry AU, just pure flirting and fluff, suuuuuuper cute read!

Never Truly Leave

2.443 words

By @clottedcreamfudge Catherine finds a letter that Arthur wrote... To Alex. We cry alongside Alex as he reads it; very emotional, it will make you cry, and fall in love with these characters all over again, could not recommend enough

you knew the entire time (you knew that i'm a mastermind)

8.239 words

By @coffeecatsme Uni and autistic Henry AU, we see Alex and Henry fall in love. Fluffy but also a bit of angst, you just want to protect Henry and tell him everything is going to be okay

starry eyes sparking up my darkest nights

16.367 words

By @coffeecatsme Hugh school AU where Arthur is also alive and becomes like a second father to Alex. Very very sweet with a bit if angst as well, you'll love it and might have a few happy tears towards the end

learning to love (without it having to hurt)

4.861 words

AU where they aren't famous and they are roommates. We see Henry figure out his asexuality and Alex be there for him, and them getting together of course :) very very sweet read!

The last letter

2.173 words

By @floatingaway4 They are in the afterlife, at peace. This weiter managed to combine angst and fluff at the exact same time and I don't know how they did it, it will make you ugly happy cry!

Fourty-Four Days

8.675 words

They are living in the Brownstone when Henry needs to go to europe for the shelters and Alex to California for a campaign, and they end up not seeing each other for 44 days, and it's too much. Angsty but then fluffy, it just hurts seeing them miss each other so so much

take me out, and take me home

11.837 words

Roommates AU and we see Alex get some feelings, only friendly feelings of course... Really cute story and ending!

i’d take the bomb in your head and disarm it

22.392 words

By @evanbuvkley roommates AU and friends to angsty friends to lovers afahsgsjshdj so much angst that you might cry but a bit of fluff too (happy ending don't worry) such an engaging story, very well executed

and I wrote down our song

6.072 words

AU where Alex is a musician and Henry isn't a prince and they meet at a bar where Alex is performing. Super cute and we see how they fall in love and grow and it's just full of joy!

Group therapy

3.243 words

By @stutteringpeach AU where Ellen is Henrys therapist and he is dating Alex and talks to Ellen about their relationship, without knowing that it's actually his boyfriends mum... They "meet" at a family cook out and its honestly hilarious lmao you will not stop laughing

[alittlefrenchtree]

I just want to clarify something for the anon, I see it's a common misunderstanding and I might not explained myself in a good way. When I talk about Nick's haters I'm not talking about people saying they are not gonna watch the movie, they are free to do that and say it. The haters for me are all those people that said they're not gonna read the book but then they read it just to make post about it making fun of it, the people that say "sorry nick i'm not gonna follow you on this one" and then go on to stay updated on every movement about the movie, commenting on every new clip or picture just to say something mean. How many post attract hate for Nick and some of them are from his own fans? If you say you are not gonna talk about the movie and then you're more updated on it than the fans and you have always a mean thing to say then you're a hater. And this doesn't only happen with TIOY... I've seen people distance themselves from the actors, they said they only gonna talk about the characthers and yet you can always find a comment from them when Nick goes somewhere and they have to make fun of his outfit. Same happens with Tzp on other occasions. I know that I should find only people that i like but for how the socials works and how much hate there is, it's almost impossible to remove it completely from my view and I don't see why everyone encourage the drama and the hate instead of working togheter to make people realize what they're doing.

I do agree with you with most extend. I guess it's also depends on what you see as hate. In what you're describing, I see people getting bored and looking for attention and being "mean" often get you more attention than being "nice". I see people trying to stay "relevant" in a fandom which very often lead to controversial behaviors. I see people trying to put themselves above others, pretending they're smarter or have better tastes when some of them will probably be watching the movie all the same. It's saddening that it brings only negativity around Nick's (and Taylor's) name but like I said, most of this are really fandom drama for me and not something that really concern them as people. I also know there are other stuff (maybe rooted in this, idk?) that goes too far when it gets to their personal lives, but it's another subject entirely for me.

I certainly don't see making fun of his red carpets looks as hate, as commenting on people clothes is the very purpose of red carpets and photo calls and I do it myself occasionally. Someone publicly saying he's ugly would be problematic. Someone saying (in a funny) they think his outfits for event are rarely a hit is quite different.

What is delicate is when people who want to express genuine opinions about a movie/project they aren't excited about, or they don't like the idea for this or that reasons or they didn't like get jumped at as if they were posting messages to trash it every two hours. Because people have been on protective mode and are tired of seeing negative stuff and don't want to bother when they just want to be happy -- which is understandable -- but it's also annoying for people who just want to share opinions about movies.

Obviously I'm not encouraging obsessively talking about something you claim to don't like or not to be interested it. I don't post much about tioy for this very reason even if i will watch it (with wine). But it's important that we still allow ourself to express opinions towards art and performances, even if they're on the negative side. And honestly, I'm not complaining because I never have any problem, because it's quite easy for me to do it here, on my own space when there's no character limitations for me to explain myself. I've said that it took me a while to appreciate Nick's performance as Henry ; I've said that Mary & George could have been better and people have never call me a hater (maybe trolls did but they don't count so I don't remember). They were curious to know why and willing to engage in a conversation to understand. I guess it's not only about finding your people but also finding the right space to say things, knowing that it isn't always the right time to stay stuff, and also remembering who you're talking to when you do.

As about why people aren't working together to make people realize what they're doing... I'm pretty sure it's because it never works? I've been in many fandoms on many different platforms (some of them don't exist anymore) and it really never works. It's already a huge task to have a clean space without (too much) negativity when the said space has moderators and admins and written rules. I think it's pretty much impossible on public social like twitter or tumblr. Only following neutral source accounts on public social (and not looking at for you pages and tags) and joining a discord server with only your close fandom friends would the closest thing to a clean experience.

All of that being said, I do appreciate all of you staying as polite as polite and trying to explain yourself again to avoid misunderstanding. I think it's really precious on the Internet these days. It must have been a tiring day scrolling through your dash today if you're following me but luckily I don't do that very often.

💜

[crayolacolor]

Mary and Garry from ib! (For the ask game!)

send me characters and i'll give you my opinions on them!

I LOVE BOTH OF THEM. This used to be an unpopular opinion in the fandom but I actually think the majority of them have outgrown the Mary hate phase just like I did, so that's nice to see.

Garry was my immediate favorite, unsurprisingly. I love him. I love how he goes out of his way to protect Ib, and how he's obviously terrified throughout the entire thing and yet doesn't let it get in the way of that.

He's an interesting character too, because there's more going on with him than you would think from first impressions. I agree that a lot of people overlook that he has kind of an impulsive streak and gets angry a little easier than he should.

Even I overlooked that when I first got into the fandom, but I was very vulnerable to fanon perception back then, clearly.

Which brings me to Mary! Yeah, I had a Mary hate phase. I used to despise the Together, Forever ending with a passion, Lol. But I don't anymore. I think as we get older we start to see the nuance in stories more clearly, and I definitely did with Mary.

She's not some evil supervillain, and honestly I'm not 100% sure she fully understands the concept of death. Ib obviously doesn't (unless we go with the 'she was in denial' headcanon which admittedly I leaned into in one of my fanfics, but as for canon, I tend to lean more in the other direction.)

Mary is mentally around the same age. So it really isn't a stretch to assume the same might be true of her, especially since she's been sheltered from the outside world, and doesn't even know that Guertena is dead.

So, yeah. I fully think her intent was not specifically murderous, but rather she just wanted to get out. That doesn't excuse her, obviously- even if she didn't understand the murder thing, she's still trapping someone in the Fabricated World against their will, assuming we're taking the "swapping places" thing to mean that Garry becomes a painting after the events of the game. (Which is very heavily implied).

She's putting someone else in the same position she hated so much.

But she's not really evil, like a lot of the fandom used to think.

[zannolin]

☔☔☔ hit me with em chief

☔Is there a fic concept you have that you'd like to just explain and share because you're not sure you'll ever write it? If so, what is it?

god. GOD. there's so many. case in point:

i'll just infodump about whichever ones come to mind because i just woke up and i'm waiting for my coffee to kick in so i can read paradise lost book four.

first, i think i've mentioned the final girl au on my blog before but just to remind everyone it exists: the final girl au. this is for resident evil village where the premise is what if mother miranda yoinked ethan instead of mia and mia was the one who had to go after rose. did i create this solely so i could have ethan live and also write the house beneviento scenes as even more fucked up? yes. yes i did. i love mothers in horror. i haven't written it because it requires replotting of literally the Entire game and i'm so tired okay just SO tired but i have a lot of plot done (in my head) and i think there's so much symbolism and character development i could explore given the chance. mia winters my queen. get behind me i'll protect you from the fandom.

the shazam apple au: okay so there's this deleted/alternate scene from fury of the gods where instead of just throwing the apple to mary to get it away from kalypso, billy just takes? a fuckin bite out of it? actually several bites. he goes to TOWN on that thing it is the most unsettling thing i've ever witnessed. i thought it would be fun if wonder woman didn't deus ex machina things and billy stays dead longer than he does in the movie. he comes back, but it involves the apple (tree of life, and all that) um. growing. twirls hair. mild horror and such.

event horizon: um okay so you know the cave of memory in five kingdoms? (no you don't. i'm sure.) well tl;dr there's this place in necronum where if you go in, you leave behind an imprint of yourself that's basically you frozen in the moment you visited, with all your memories and personality, but unable to grow or retain new memories. stuck there forever. lol. and i in my jace/coleness was like hey, jace goes to visit the imprint because he can't deal with going to see real cole who is steadily forgetting the outskirts and all of them exist, and at least this version knows who he is, even if he can't remember anything new. so it's this fic that's almost like a timeloop: snapshots of every time jace visits him and imprint!cole obviously not remembering each one for the next round, and you see jace slowly get older and deal with the fact that he has to move on someday. except he's never been very good at letting go.

um i also had this idea that was like okay, what if ramarro sort of wins in the initial showdown in time jumpers and he puts cole in the void like he threatened, and then there's an underground rebellion trying to get him out so they can face ramarro and try to take him down again. this ends up involving jace taking the last artifact/potion, the one they didn't use, which sends someone forward a hundred years or whatever. i kind of didn't plot it much past that because 1) it was a frivolous jace/cole concept and 2) well

yeah.

finally i just think that someone should write a fic about warren and dale from fablehaven but i'm not unhinged enough. yet.

i have many many many such concepts i may never write. but i sure love talking about them.

send me wip asks!!

[blueteller]

Why is Cale so lovable, actually? What's his secret??

Here's the thing: despite his flaws, KRS-Cale's charisma is insane, even for protagonist standards. Why is that?

Sure, it's a standard protagonist quality to use the ✨Power of Friendship✨ to save the day, but Cale has the unique ability to – completely unintentionally – turn EVERYONE around him into simps, sometimes even his enemies. And that, bizarrely, includes the audience. No don't lie to me, I've been in this fandom for a month already, I have eyes!

So, how does that keep happening, exactly??

To answer that question, allow me to first introduce you to a very important concept for healthy relationships: the 5 languages of love.

Words of affirmation

Quality time

Physical touch

Acts of service

Receiving gifts

A no, this does not apply only to romantic relationships - it's ALL relationships. Every person has their own preferences, both in showing and receiving them, usually 2 or 3 of them being the most important ones for a person. For example, I'm a "words" and "touch" person myself: I like hugs and people telling me they care about me. Pretty simple concept.

So, here's the thing. I've been re-reading TCF, and I came to a very important conclusion: Cale, completely by accident, absolutely excels at all five love languages.

It's so subtle you might not realize it at first. It does't sound like someone with such a closed personality, does it? It's especially confusing when you consider his background: an abused orphan who was pretty much always alone. But perhaps because he never recieved much affection growing up, he currently compensates by subconsciously sharing what he always wanted to receive, yet never got as a child. And because he ends up in a world where he's surrounded by abused children who didn't get enough affection, it's so darn effective, winning people's undying love and loyalty instantly.

Let's look at these one by one, shall we?

1. Words of affirmation

Cale has a tendency to accidentally say exactly what the listener needs to hear. But it's not all bluff, and not all luck. Cale is actually quite wise. He gives proper words of encouragement, based entirely on his knowledge and judgemment. For example: he tells Choi Han that he can protect people. He tells Raon that he should live freely and that he's great and mighty. He tells Alberu he deserves to rule the kingdom. He tells Mary not to "listen to nonsense". He tells Rosalyn she's reliable and capable. The list goes on and on.

Cale might not be saying "I love you" directly, but he is saying "Good job, take good care of yourself"... which pretty much amounts to the same thing.

2. Quality time

It might sound ridiculous, but... taking down Arm and saving the world is actually their perfect family quality time. Laugh if you want, but I'm serious! They're not a regular family, after all. They were all hurt, scarred and/or betrayed by the secret organization at some point. By destroying them and saving the world together, Cale not only gives his friends a purpose - he is also giving them closure. Revenge, retribution, healing, moving forward... it's all there. THAT'S some quality time!

3. Physical touch

While he's certainly not hugger or anything (not counting the Choi Han battle hug or Alberu's showman embraces, those were always an act), Cale is not averse to touching people either. Head pats for the children are quite common. Cale also touches people on the shoulder a lot, have you noticed? Like when Jack cried over Hannah, or when Cale congratulated Choi Han on a job well done after rescuing Raon. It's subtle, but it's there: his touch means support, affection and respect. It definitely counts.

4. Acts of service

Pretty much everything Cale does ends up helping other people, one way or another. Considering the sheer scale of Cale's actions, it's only natural that combined with the other love languages, it makes others feel great admiration towards Cale. He might not like it, because he sees those acts of service as "self-serving". But I think Cale was the most honest about it at the beginning of the story: when he gave On and Hong bread for the first time. "You don't need a reason for things your heart draws you to."

Cale actually, genuinely wants to help others. It's just he's so overworked already, he doesn't want the expectations and responsibility that comes with other people relying on him. As an orphan, he was made to believe that taking care of his own interests is inherently selfish, but somehow, he only applies that when thinking about himself. Despite everything, he actively encourages others to take care of themselves while neglecting himself. No wonder people love him.

5. Receiving gifts

Despite liking money so much, he's extremely generous. He lets go of five billions when selling Toonka – whom he "doesn't even like" – some documents back from the magic tower pretty much "just because". Sure, Alberu told him to do it, but Cale wouldn't listen to him if he didn't want to. You'd think his previous life of poverty would make him greedier than that. But while he steals from bad guys with no remorse, he gives to his allies freely with even less remorse. Sure, he expect them to "repay" him with their services, but you'd have to be blind not to notice how beneficial those deals are for everyone involved. And his kids? Cale downright spoils them. Sure he "scams" Raon by letting him pick one magic gemstone out of hundreds, or a single coin out of Alberu's pockets... but that's just responsible parenting more than anything.

And remember how he asked Basen and Lily what they wanted as a gift at the beginning? There was absolutely no ulterior motive to that: zero. He did it literally just because. Remeber when he gave Raon an additional pouch with healing potions when he just met him? Or when he gave Choi Han the same pouch when he sent him off to find Lock and Rosalyn? Yeah. Cale does that pretty much all the time in the novel.

Conclusion: the reason why Cale is so lovable is because he's already so loving 😊

[stellocchia]

hi it’s th very long anon from last night back with another very long post. and yeah I 100% agree with what everyone’s saying. I just wanted to clear up two small things when I said “I’m sorry if you think he’s a good character” I meant that like towards any hypothetical people who think that, I knew you didn’t judging by all your recent posts lol. just wanted to say that caus I worded it confusingly

Also the main reason for this post is that when talking about people lore I still had hope for i completly forgot about quackity <\3 my beloved

but anyway the fact that I have dropped investment in so many characters I loved kind of goes to show the problem with recent lore (and for quite a few of them,,,, technos involvement) so here’s a few characters I used to absolutely love to make a point I guess

starting off strong with c!sam who used to be portrayed as a highly twisted but sympathetic man driven to cruel extremes to protect those he loves, while hurting them in the process. Who’s now been turned into evil bad guy for techno to lock up in prison for some reason. It’s tommy who should be directly tied up in this arc, not techno.

Next is c!techno who I used to think was really cool, funny, and extremely flawed. A hardened warrior with no morals who still manages to be easygoing and even friendly out side of battle. Someone who puts concepts over people, who has a very black and white extreme way of looking at things. Now he’s an annoying Mary Sue.

I’ve always found c!Ranboo a bit annoying but the way that we still haven’t gotten answers to mysteries that presented them selves a year ago kind of sucks and ruined all investment I had in his character. Especially because for a while there he just kept adding new ones with no real resolutions.

with c!Tubbo I’m sorry but I think his character started going down hill the moment he married c!Ranboo but you didn’t hear that from me- there was like a brief amount of time around c!tommys revival and the cookie outpost where he was cool again but that was so long ago it’s all blurry now.

And I just miss c!jack </3 please my boy come home from war

for c!niki I literally don’t know what the heck is going on with her character anymore but her joining up with techno was at least one of the very strange choices made for her.

There’s literally so many more which is sad but this is all I feel like talking about right now. I’m glad I’ve kinda started to semi move on to other things but for some reason it’s been so hard to completely break the ties. I guess cause things are always being updated and it’s still all over my socials. I’ve literally been here since 2020. I just want a good coherent conclusion but I guess that’s too much to ask

Yeah, there are a lot of characters I used to at least enjoy before and now are kinda meh.

Honestly, I still like c!Sam, because the way cc!Sam portrays him is still as a cool morally grey character. He's very based on certain things and I do love how extreme he can get in pursuit of what he believes to be the greater good. I'm sad they literally tried to do prison lore without two of the four main characters involved in it being mentioned (because bringing up c!Dream and c!Tommy would have made c!Techno look bad) which just made c!Sam's actions sound like they came out of nowhere, but he definitely recovered later with his lore with c!Dream.

I used to be a c!Techno apologist once, we all know how that ended, so moving on.

Honestly, I just wish cc!Ranboo was a bit more decisive with his lore. Because right now he dropped every single plotline he was involved in and that after a while just gets frustrating.

C!Tubbo used to be one of my favorites. He used to be cool and interesting and consistent, but, I'm gonna be honest, the drop in quality came with c!Tommy's death. The fandom tried its best to fit his lack of reaction in with his character, but there's only so much the fandom can patch up before the character start feeling like he truly just doesn't care.

I never was particularly into c!Niki, but she used to be really badass in season 1. Wish she kept some of that.

Either way, sadly dsmp still has me fully in its grip, I don't think I'm gonna leave this fandom any time soon, but, for the sake of my own enjoyment, I'm definitely gonna stop watching certain character's lore. It doesn't make sense to watch something if all I get from it is frustration anyway.

[lukealvezhimboextraordinaire]

I feel like half of the fandom is melting down and the other part rationalizing this new development and idk how to feel. I’m sure the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Regardless of the extent of Edwina’s crush and her connection with Anthony (bleh), they still changed the book dynamic where they are completely apathetic about one another, which is a bummer.

I'm still not very worried about the "love triangle" because I think Edwina's feelings for Anthony will be one of those platonic crushes we all get as teens on the mysterious and popular person everyone talks about but once we actually meet them and get to know them we realize they do nothing to us. Here we have a saying that goes "never meet the people you worship" because, 9/10 times, you are gonna be dissapointed. We know Eddie is young and innocent and i feel this whole thing is to remark the difference between the sister's personalities. In the book Kate is judgmental of Anthony before even meeting him, basing her opinion in gossip and rumors, meanwhile Edwina is more letinent and willing to give him a chance. They just have zero chemistry as a romantic couple because neither of them is what the other wants. I actually wouldn't mind seeing them coming to this realization on screen. Edwina been all giddy and smitten with Anthony and Kate becoming extra protective because of it. Anthony would enjoy the attention for two reasons 1) it would make Kate mad and 2) he chose Edwina to be his wife so having her interested in him would be like a win. But then they get to spend time together and the conversation doesn't flow. It's tense and awkward and it isn't until they both voice this that they can relax and start joking.

Anyway! I got carried away. Sorry. But I do understand how you are feeling and think it's very valid. Edwina and Kate's sister bond (along with Mary) is very important to me too. They made us think we were not only getting a similar dynamic to the book but something even better! And now we are faced with the possibility that they will fight, or have drama, about a boy out of all things. It's just ehh.

[nocturnal-birb]

a question hour, yaay! so listen, i'm like lowkey curious about these cowboy dudes u keep posting ,,,so ,,,may i pls be introducedghjggjf

Oh my sweet anon… I have no idea how to start this- oh god safjhsjkdf

I feel like I’m gonna scare you with the amount of shit I’ll pull just to introduce them all but fear not!

I shall try my best to introduce these hot cowboys and cowgirls. Sit back and relax and watch me make a mess of introduction of them because I’ll probably just scare you with this and I am so sorry //cries

Arthur Morgan: the fandom’s number 1 cowboy in town. He’s the kindest and toughest rootin’ tootin’ cowboy who is very sad and lonely- but we love him! (He’s usually the one I always post about)

Dutch van der Linde: he’s the man with a plan; a dangerous man if you ask me (he brings out the kinkiest mofo in you so beware of him), supposedly a camp dad

Hosea Matthews: the gang’s real fashion camp dad! Like no joke, he may be old but he still rockin’ on that coat/vest fashion like he hasn’t aged at all. Best dad of all. 11/10 would want him as gang leader instead.

John Marston: aka the golden boy or as the fandom likes to call him “local feral raccoon” why? ‘Cause he ain’t fond of bathing (doesn’t even know how to swim), always greasy and usually scavenges for food instead of asking for one.

Sadie Adler: that one raging bisexual that you’re not sure whether you want to fuck or have her fuck you (seriously, she makes everyone gay), a badass queen that needs no man because she’s an independent woman. Arthur’s best friends

Charles Smith: a big soft boi; he may look scary but trust me, anon! He’s sweet just like Arthur. He’s also one of Arthur’s best friends; he’s silent but he will always ride with you.

Javier Escuella: he’s that one guy that could make you swoon for his music and voice. Dude has a talent for music plus the fandom loves his songs but be warned, he does not take kindly of racists and will fite right away if you call him greaser.

Bill Williamson: a simple lad who does simple stuff. Loves his horse a lot more than anything.

Sean MacGuire: he may be annoying to the gang but trust me, they love him for his positive attitude and personality. A kid in heart who tries his best.

Lenny Summers: another fandom fav because he keeps our sad cowboy Arthur happy and lets Arthur relax for once (cause the gang’s always up in his ass); great drinking buddy; also he has many names but the fandom calls him ‘YNNEL” at times.

Uncle: everyone’s favorite uncle! He has a condition though- he has Lumbago, a serious condition indeed. That’s why no one lets him work at camp.

Josiah Trelawny: he makes everyone gay; has that great mustache that could make you swoon by just staring at it. Great dad for his children and wife tbh!

Micah Bell: aside from John being a raccoon, we got Micah being a rat of the camp. Why? He just is. He causes havoc everywhere he goes and our poor ol’ Arthur is the one that always has to clean his mess up.

Leopold Strauss: uhh.. he’s a loan shark; keeps making Arthur do his debt collecting instead of him (only a few likes him as majority doesn’t due to an incident)

Simon Pearson: Good lad with lots of navy stories to tell but not much good with making stews apparently… (according to the gang)

Abigail Roberts: She’s quite a mean gal but I can assure you that she’s only like that because she wants to protect Jack and also make a man out of John.

Susan Grimshaw: she’s like that strict grandma/aunt that you should be scared of. But she’s actually a sweetheart despite her tough love on ya. Always nags but let me assure you that she only wants what’s best for ya.

Molly O’Shea: quite a stuck up woman but only because of Dutch not paying attention to her. (Like dude barely even touched her and it had her goin’ grouchy); the queen that was robbed from us despite how the girls treat her- the fandom does love her though!

Mary-Beth Gaskill: the most sweetest thief in the gang you’ll ever meet! She loves writing romance and pretty much sees everything as a romance reference for her book whether be it about vampires, forbidden love- all those kinds of stuff.

Tilly Jackson: she’s as sweet as Mary-Beth and she loves to help Arthur as much as she can. She one that’s not afraid to speak her mind about things.

Karen Jones: a thicc lady with a thicc heart; always down to rob a bank with Arthur and others- just like the girls, she’s also sweet although a bit of a drunk but still sweet

Kieran Duffy: a sweat stuttering bean; the fandom loves him very much that they would protect him from mean people. He’s the softest boi in the gang.

[freedom-of-fanfic]

I'm kind of torn on the Mary Sue issue. On one hand, I don't care what anyone writes for their own amusement, but writing is still an art that does and should have standards for professionals. As someone who has degrees in writing and does it as a profession, it's a little insulting to be told that the work your poured tons of research and time into is on the same level as amateur self-insert fic. That's why I advocate for different standards for fandom vs pro work.

I feel you, anon. and I have a lot of respect for people like you who got degrees and write professionally, because words are held rather cheap with the internet being around and anyone who can get paid to write words impresses me to some degree. but:

 I’ve always felt like comparing fanfic and original fiction to be not exactly congruous? and 

I think Mary Sue suffers from maligning because she’s disproportionately evoked by the youngest/least experienced of writers.

this got … pretty long … so i’m dividing it up a little for ease.

the concept of ‘standards’

first of all, I also advocate for different standards between published/professional/marketed works and fan works, but I do so because of 1)potential spread and 2)they aren’t accomplishing the same thing.

In general, a fanwork will have limited appeal outside of the fans of the canon the work is based in; they cannot stand on their own without some additional effort. Further, fandom has its own language to some degree or another, and fanworks are frequently best understood in the context of other fanworks, like scientific papers citing other scientific papers in passing because the audience is expected to be other scientists in the field who have read it. In other words: the audience is probably fairly niche and in on the ‘lingo’. its potential damage circle is therefore relatively small. if somebody fucks up their research for a fic, it’s nbd, for instance.

On the other hand, an original work with a professional marketing team will certainly reach a much more diverse audience and probably a much larger one. It’s therefore responsible, imo, to be proportionately aware of the potential impact of the subject material and approach it accordingly (though true fiction will always have an unpredictable effect on any given individual, so there’s only so much the creator can do). I’d expect accuracy where research was done, if for no other reason than to avoid spreading false information to such a big potential audience.

and of course I’d hope that if somebody is being paid to write, their grammar/prose/proofreading will meet a certain standard of readability. (the same cannot be expected of free works done for fun that take a few minutes to post on the internet.)

having said that: standards for quality fiction writing will always be subjective. I’m always going to have questions about why The Sound and the Fury is an American classic (I couldn’t make sense of it no matter how hard I tried).  What gets published can be as simple as having good luck with the slush pile reader that day. I’ve seen fanfiction complimented with incredible research: there’s a Tokyo Babylon work-in-progress with an author who has traveled to fic-relevant locales to nail story and character details. I feel the line is blurring these days, especially because there are people who make a living off writing commissioned fanfiction now (too small-scale to be an IP concern, of course).

I think the fundamental difference between fanworks and original works is not quality of the work itself or effort expended.  It’s related to structure and aim. 

Fanworks, even AU fanworks, are like interior decoration. A 'good fanwork’, even an AU fanwork, works within a pre-built framework to elaborate on or add to or evoke what drew its audience to the framework in the first place. 

Original works build a whole new house, creating a new framework from bare construction materials to draw in and house the emotions of its readers. (and then maybe its readers decorate the house with their own fanfic.)

tl;dr: if an AU fanfic was so different from canon and the characters were so OOC that the author can shave the serial numbers off and repurpose it as an original story, it might be a great original work. But it wasn’t a very good fanfic, was it?

why is mary sue so offensive to us?

I don’t know if you’ve ever read the post Mary Sue, What Are You?, but what I keep coming back to is its iconic opening. the author describes an OC at length: orphaned as a child when her parents were killed in front of her, she decided she would dedicate her life to fighting for justice. She grew up to be rich, athletic, beautiful, sexy, angsty, a genius, undefeatable in a battle of wits and agility, and everyone who meets her is instantly lovestruck. In other words, a classic Mary Sue …

but also Batman with female pronouns.

I think one could argue that Batman is not always well-written, but the relevant point here is that Batman - and Mary Sue - might be 99.9% perfection in the shape of a human around whom the universe revolves, but if its their own canon and the universe doesn’t recognize their perfection the way the reader/writer does, it’s not really 'bad’. (And there’s something to be said about why giving this power fantasy male pronouns seems to render it so much more palatable than female pronouns, but for more on that I point you to the referenced essay.)

Your ask is worded to suggest that Mary Sue is synonymous with unprofessional writing. I … kind of agree? Mary Sue is frequently the main character of Baby’s First Fanfic, and let’s be real: Baby’s First Fanfic is often being written by somebody who might be as young (or younger than) 12-13 years old, with all the inexperience, grammar mistakes, and lack of training that suggests. and as far as characterization goes, I think that anyone who takes decent writing classes will be discouraged from writing a Mary Sue. But like Batman, Mary Sue can be a perfect princess and get away with it under certain circumstances.

I posit that Mary Sue characters (or Gary Stus) - whom I will call Flawless OCs from here - are not really a problem on their own. Further, Flawless OC is more agregious in fanfic than original works. Because what makes the Flawless OC so irritating isn’t their perfection, really: it’s what the character’s presence must do to the universe (which is, in the case of fanfic, the universe the reader came to experience in the first place) that’s the real problem.

To show what a good fighter Flawless OC is, they defeat the best canon fighter.

Flawless OC has a backstory more tragic and painful than the most tragic canon backstory, and they cope with the trauma of it better.

There’s no room for Flawless OC because canon wasn’t holding a spot open for a self-insert, so now there’s a 6th Lion or a 10th Fellowship member or a Second Child Who Survived Voldemort.

The entire universe bends to ensure Flawless OC has perfect luck; their enemies are helpless before them. Everything seems to go their way except in the chapter where the their love interest is supposed to rescue them from danger. (the rescue goes flawlessly, of course.)

Depending on the author wish that Flawless OC is meant to fulfill, Flawless OC will defeat any undefeatable enemy, solve the unsolveable problem, be the envy or lust object of any character, etc etc, often without regard for the original context of the enemy/problem or the canon personality of the character.

In short, Flawless OC usually have two major issues: 

they render canon irrelevant to glorify Flawless OC, and 

the universe constantly validates their choices to a degree that wrecks narrative suspense. 

what makes each of these things 'bad writing’ is different.

The first problem I mentioned - warping of mythos, plot, and characters to accomodate the Flawless OC - is a fanfic problem.  Canon-warping absolutely allowed, but what makes it fanfic - the canon source that acts as our shared experience and usually our main reason for being a potential audience to the fic - is almost always nigh-unrecognizable. That makes for bad fanfiction, but it doesn’t always make for bad fiction. Change all the parts of canon enough and you’ve arguably got an original work. It might even be a good original work if the author has writing skill.

The second problem - the validation of the universe - is what makes Flawless OC a dull read in any context. If Flawless OC wants something, you know they’ll get it. If Flawless OC hates someone, you know they’re going to catch hell. If Flawless OC needs to be vulnerable for their love interest, something just bad enough to make them vulnerable will befall them. The perfection of the OC is less of an issue than the lack of meaningful conflict. (A character can have no faults and still be interesting to follow if they must struggle against a universe that doesn’t care.)

to wit:

there’s a fantasy book by David and Leigh Eddings - The Redemption of Althalus - that I read long ago. it stuck with me to a peculiar degree because for a book with such a unique conceit, it was incredibly boring. This is published fiction: it had editors, a marketing team, and was written by professionals with lots of experience! But looking back, none of this saved the story from featuring Gary Stu in a universe that catered to his every need.

The main character, Althalus, is ostensibly a person in need of redemption for being such a bad person all his life and never punished for it, but he’s a loveable, quick-witted rogue almost from the start. To 'redeem’ himself, he’s tasked with saving the world from Enemies (we’re told they’re evil, but I don’t think we see them more than once or twice).  Protected by the Goddess of Luck - literally - for the entire novel, there’s never a single moment where Althalus’ victory over the Enemy is in question. He never does anything really awful that would explain his need to be redeemed (in fact, it turns out the Luck Goddess is the one who protected him from punishment all his life). The enemy is weak, forgettable, and constantly outwitted, and the protagonists, supposedly people of gray morality, never did anything worse than be snarky.

The unique conceit that kept me reading was the House at the End of the World. Being the home of the Goddess, it had doors that opened to anywhere on the planet. but for an idea with such double-edged possibilities, it turned out to be an impregnable fortress of Good. The House and its owner were the forces that bent the whole book’s universe to the inevitable triumph of the main character and his companions.

A counter-example might be Miraculous Ladybug. I’ve often wondered if Mary Sue could be written well and be likeable, and Marinette - the titular Ladybug - is probably close. She’s good at almost everything and always outwits her enemies; even when she seems confident to the point of arrogance, it’s justified by her endless successes. (Her only real flaw is being clumsy when she’s distracted, and it only happens when it’s conveniently cute. this is a walking Mary Sue cliche.) Her power is to be lucky, after all.  

However: even though everything ends up right for Marinette at the end of every episode, she’s not rewarded when she acts poorly towards others. She causes herself problems when she does. Her luck powers give her the ability to bend the universe a little, but the universe is otherwise unforgiving; she’s subjected to the same banalities as everyone else and learns to be a better person along the way.

OTOH if you put Ladybug in another canon with a makeover to recast her as Flawless OC, changing everything so she could occupy a central role like the one she has in her own series, she’d be insufferable: hence Ladybug is a solid example of how a Mary Sue can prosper provided she’s in a universe designed to both feature her and contain her powers for the sake of Good.

I apologize for how long a reply this is. Still: I hope it successfully illustrates for you that:

though original writing and fanfic writing use the same tool (words), and both can use them masterfully, what original writers like you do and what fic writers do are, in general, very different things.

And Mary Sue is what you make of her. In the right universe, she’s just a very lucky person. :)

[ingu]

Hello again! No one has to headcanon Joseph to be a bad person because he manipulates people! He told the MC that he was leaving Mary to get him to have sex with him, and then took it back after the fact. And I'm pretty sure it's safe to say the toddler would be just fine in a backyard full of familiar people. Irt Mary, I'd go out drinking too if I was stuck with a man who cheated on me once, if not twice. I understand you love Joseph but the condescension towards people who dislike him is silly

Look, anon, you are very much entitled to have your own reading and opinion of who Joseph is and what drives his decisions. But the thing is, what you provided is just one of countless possible interpretations. What goes on among these characters is clearly complicated and messy, but allow me to offer some alternative interpretations for Joseph and his motivations which, in my opinion, are all just as valid as your reading.

Joseph is openly bi/pan and loves his wife dearly

Joseph is a closted gay man struggling with his sexuality and his faith

Joseph is a closeted bi/pan man who doesn’t know how to reconcile his attraction to men with his love for his wife

Mary just loves having fun and Joseph is perfectly aware and supportive of her going out at night as long as she’s careful

Mary actually has a terrible drinking habit and is neglectful of the children, and this is the main reason their marriage is falling apart

Joseph is unable to satisfy Mary sexually and thus Mary feels neglected and seeks (non-sexual) intimacy from strangers

Joseph is unable to satisfy Mary sexually and thus Mary feels neglected and seeks sexual intimacy from strangers but everyone in the community knows her and refuses her

Mary actually is cheating on Joseph with strangers, she’s just careful enough about it that the bartender doesen’t know

Mary is cheating on Joseph with Robert

Joseph knows that Mary is cheating on him and is upset about it

Joseph doesn’t actually know Mary hasn’t been cheating on him. All he knows is that she goes out late at night and comes home smelling like booze and strange men

Joseph doesn’t really care about Robert but sleeping with Mary’s best friend was his way of getting back at her 

Joseph has reconciled the fact that he will have moments of weakness and treats the cheating as necessary reprieves 

He accidentally fell in love with Robert and still has feelings for him

He feels deeply guilty about sleeping with Robert/the MC

He thinks Mary is cheating on him with Robert and that’s why he never chose to be with Robert despite feeling attracted to him

When he sleeps with the MC, he was telling the truth and genuinely thought that Mary was about to divorce him

When he sleeps with the MC, he had no idea which way his relationship with Mary would go but desperately needed to feel like he mattered

He is genuinely in love with the MC but can’t just shake his duty as a husband and father

Joseph loves Mary more than the MC, and Mary loves Joseph too, which is why they reconcile and try to make it work (again)

Mary and/or Joseph have fallen out of love but care too much about their children to break it up for good in the fear that the kids will be hurt

Joseph married Mary due to obligatory heterosexuality and doesn’t believe he can be happy even if he lived differently

Joseph is a demonic being from- you know what never mind this one

I honestly haven’t made up my mind about who I think he is, but any combination of these and the ones you’ve offered could form a person’s headcanon about what is and has been going on with these chararcters. It’s why we have so many people disappointed that they never explored Joseph’s potential as a closeted gay man like he was so perfectly set up to be. That’s part of the fun of fandom, exploring and navigating these different character interpretations and dynamics.

On the issue of childcare… I can only say that I don’t think it’s ever a good idea for a parent to not know or care where their child is. From what I remember of the coversation Joseph thought Mary had put Chrish to sleep in their cot (presumably indoors) but Mary… was drinking her wine and was neither interested nor aware about her child’s welfare. I think it’s okay to say she’s not the world’s most responsible mother while still loving her wit, spirit, and protectiveness of her friends.

And honestly… I don’t love Joseph? In terms of favourite characters Robert is by far my most beloved, and Craig a close second. But Joseph is quite interesting to me because his character arc and motivations are left incredibly unclear. And the fact that we’re even having this exchange right now is fact that he is able to elicit some discussion and emotion from all of us. I have never condesended to anyone for disliking him. But I am judging people who seem to have shaped their fandom identity around their resentment and do little but celebrate and mock what a bad person they think he has to be. It’s safe to bully fictional characters since they’re not real, but it doesn’t mean it doen’t leave a bad taste in others’ mouths.

[alittlefrenchtree]

Hi, I'm happy to know your opinion on a certain "social" issue because I like your objectivity and your arguments on each topic but if you think this message could create "drama" of any kind or be misunderstood, please feel free not to publish it even if it's absolutely not my intention to do so, I just like exchanging opinions and talking about everything in a polite and calm manner.

So first of all I want to clarify that I don't think celebrities' social networks are everything and represent their relationships and their lives 100%. I am aware that what we see is a small part and as far as I understand on a "fan" level, it's good seeing interactions of any kind, I am also part of that group of people who, if they don't see anything on social media, aren't interested in it.

So talking to you about this absolutely doesn't come from that but more from a need, after dealing with various things in the fandom, to face and understand if there is a double standard for the boys

I couldn't help but notice the different reactions when Taylor supports and publicly likes Nicholas' projects (as he's doing now for Mary & George) the reactions are normally: oh bless him he's obsessed, oh he'll definitely have his notifications turned on , oh we feel you Taylor, oh we know you and happiness and euphoria in seeing that he did something publicly for him. But I've also noticed that when someone, even in a polite manner, shows "sadness" or expresses a thought of wanting to see something from Nicholas's side too then everyone goes for the jugular and loses their mind and starts making accusations like "are you interested in Nick just for the interactions with Taylor, he's not here to do fanservice, he doesn't owe you anything" etc and I find it strange? because yes it's more than correct, but why don't they apply it to the other boy too? Is it really so strange and absurd that someone wanted to see a gesture of public support for a major event for Taylor, as others in the cast did? Why one is "oh yes he's obsessed he's a big fan of m&g obviously, well done Taylor" but the other is "he doesn't owe you anything, he doesn't do fanservice leave him alone" is there actually a double standard in the perception of both guys EVEN in the fandom? where one is hyper protected while the other is a little more... the toy that just offers interactions and entertainment?

Hi! 

Like you said, it can be an open door to drama so I’m going to try to be very quick with my answer.

If more people want to react by sending asks, know that I’m not sure I will share or answer to any of them regarding this question. This usually create endless discussions that end up going nowhere and it’s not really the content I want to spend my time on.

A few things to consider regarding of your message :

a) it’s important to not consider "the fandom" as a group of people with one unique opinion. In reality, there is way more than one fandom (there are the RWRB fandom (with a subdivision of book people and movie people), the Nick fandom who was there before RWRB and the one that came after and same goes for Taylor). Inside the said fandoms, there are numerous groups of people, each of them agreeing and disagreeing on some levels with every single other group. People inside the same group doesn’t even agree with each other most of the time. So really, it’s hard to analyze anything regarding of "the fandom" as the whole. In my experience, trying leads to non-sense and putting people against each other, forcing them to choose, to make statement of whatever they agree or not with their mutual who said this or that and creates a very shitty environment for everybody.

b) The Internet is a drama queen. Overreacting everything, being dramatic and write hyperboles in every post, tweet and message is very often the way it’s done. You find people saying stuff like their life depends on it and says the opposite thing with the same conviction within an hour and without sweating a bit. Take everything with a pinch of salt and don’t think too much of anything in a place that should be all about fun.

c) Ultimately yes, they will always be double standards everywhere, inside a fandom included. Because people have different stories within a fandom, have different expectations as a whole or regarding this or that person, different level of love, fun and seriousness. I understand the meaning of "double standards" is kind of negative and unfair, it also seems logical to me that two different people would be considered differently as they are, indeed, two different people. It doesn’t justify being mean or disrespectful obviously but, I can try to understand where some may come from. If a fan of Nick as been a fan of Nick long before RWRB and suddenly see a bunch of newcomers coming and feel (rightful or not) that some of them are linking every bit of Nick to RWRB somehow, I can understand a sense of protectiveness coming from them. What they should do tho, is ignore what they don’t like and move on with their lives. Because people who are here only for or because of RWRB and just want to bask in that are also entitle to have their fun that way. Of course, the same thing would go for Taylor fans and whatever non-related RWRB project he’ll do next (after that damn sequel).

There would be more to be said but that sums up most of what I think. More important for me being the point a). A fandom is like political party: on the front, it looks like one big family but in reality, you should stick to hang out and trust like 3 people and consider everyone else as some distant neighbors. Some of them are friendly from afar but not so much from up close, some of them are nice acquaintances who could be your friends if you had more time but most of them are people you would and should never invite to diner.

Hope this answer your question! 😊