#italki jews

[microwave-gremlin]

You know the drill, reblog for a bigger sample size!

(I'm making versions of this poll for different Jewish diasporas, and I might do a denomination version, too!)

#jupi gets jewish#jumblr#jews#jew#jewish#judaism#polls#tumblr polls#poll#jews of tumblr#mixed jews#mixed#mixed race

[spacelazarwolf]

i had my first judeo-italian class today! it was cut short bc the professor had to leave early but i have a good feeling abt this class.

[demonicsoulmates-art]

Shanah Tovah!!!

From my community to yours. I hope you have a good new year and that you can spend today with your family and community.

I myself will have a Seder and dinner with my community (I'm on my way) and tomorrow we'll have the morning function

- Dean Arthur

[saharathorn]

Ashkenazi isn’t synonymous with “European Jew” btw.

[magnetothemagnificent]

Apologies if this questions sounds stupid or ignorant, but I'm genuinely trying to educate myself. Can Jews be Jewish *and* a different race, so does a Jewish identity supersede another racial identity? Just wondering because a lot of Ashkenazi Jews I know (in real life or online) push back against the idea that they are white. I've heard European Jews say that they are not considered white, do not have white privilege, etc. so they are not white. But I've also seen a lot of Jews of color identify with both their Jewish identity and their "racial" identity (ravenreveals on Instagram explains how she identifies as Black *and* Jewish, and one of my friends identifies as an Asian Jew). So is there a reason many European (Ashkenazi?) Jews don't identify as white/identify as only Jewish? I'm sorry if this is offensive in any way, this isn't my intent :)

Sorry it took me so long to answer, I am swamped with asks haha

Yes, it's possible to be Jewish and a different race, as Judaism isn't a race, but an ethnoreligion, or even better described as a tribal nation.

Now, first I'm going to push back on you equating European with Ashkenazi. Ashkenazi is a specific term referring to Jews whose ancestors settled in the Rhine valley after the Roman expulsion from Judea. Many of these Jews eventually migrated eastward to Eastern Europe and Westward to British Isles, while others stayed in the Rhine valley region. But not all Jews whose ancestors settled in Europe are Ashkenazi.

There are Sephardi Jews, obviously, whose ancestors settled in the Iberian peninsula following the Roman expulsion, and then later migrated to North Africa, Northwestern Europe, Eastern Europe, and West Asia following the Spanish and Portugese inquistions.

There are also Italki Jews in Italy and Romaniote Jews in Greece, all of which are unique communities of Jews whose ancestors settled in Europe and who are not Ashkenazi.

Additionally, not all Ashkenazi Jews are racialized as white. Ashkenazi does not refer to your race, but rather who your ancestors are and/or what community traditions you follow. There are Ashkenazi Jews of every race.

The reason why lots of what-you-perceive-as-white Jews don't identify as white is because Judaism precedes the modern constructs of race (yes, race is a construct, not an immutable science) and because whiteness is highly subjective and fluid, just as non-whiteness is. Because race is a construct, which race a person is perceived as varies by where they are and by which people they are around.

Jewish "whiteness" is also conditional- and as Jews we don't like to leave ourselves vulnerable to shifting statuses. Jewish "white-passing-ness" can also be a tool of violence, either by denying the racial reality of antisemitism, or by being 'proof' that Jews are shape-shifting inflitrators of the white race. Hitler's Final Solution was total extermination precisely because he feared many Jews would pass as white and spread their Jewish blood among the Aryans, and so the total extermination of Jews was deemed as necessary, like one would exterminate a parasite.

This of course doesn't mean that no Jew has ever had access to the privilege afforded to whiteness. In the post-Holocaust era, many Jews have tried to successfully assimilate into whiteness to access even a little bit of privilege in order to protect themselves. I'm not going to lie and say that if I was pulled over at a traffic stop, my lighter complexion wouldn't give me more grace at the hands of the police officers than someone with darker skin would. Because yes, sometimes I am racialized as white and therefore access the privilege of whiteness.

But that doesn't mean I don't feel deeply uncomfortable when I'm filling out a form and the only options for race and even ethnicity are "white", "black", "hispanic", and "asian". Because while at the end of the day I'll check "white", it's only because I don't want to be accused of fraud (even though Middle Eastern or just Jewish would fit me better, but that's not an option). But that's just me. Some Jews are fine calling themselves "white Jews". Two Jews three opinions and all.

Someone introduced me to the phrase "racialized white/black/etc" a few years ago, and I think it makes much more sense. Because race is entirely dependent on perception and how others racialize you. I am not White, but sometimes I am racialized as white. Other times, I am racialized as "not-quite-white-but-we-don't-know-how-to-categorize-you-so-we're-just-going-to-try-and-guess-and-ask-wildly-invasive-questions".

At the end of the day, call Jews what they want to be called, and don't try and push labels on us. If a Jew doesn't want to be called white, don't call them white. Because race, ethnicity, religion, and all that is complicated, and Judaism predates all of that, so naturally Jews are going to have mixed feelings about it all.

[hindahoney]

I've had this question for a while, and Google is useless. Can you help (or redirect me to someone who can?)? I am Sicilian and I have spent the last 5 or so years of my life working to reconnect to my culture and heritage (I grew up/live abroad). It is imperative to me that I live my life with a connection to Sicily and Sicilian culture because I didn't grow up with it and I want to stay connected to my ancestors and history. However, I'm considering converting to Judaism. Judaism has deeply affected Sicilian culture and plays a big but unspoken role in Sicilian culture and identity, from customs to food to how we decorate our religious places. If I do convert, would it be possible to be both Jewish and Sicilian? I don't want to sacrifice my culture for my faith, but I will hybridize the two if possible.

This is a complicated question, and I think my answer isn't going to be the most well-rounded because I'm not intimately familiar with Sicilian culture. This might be a better question for @spacelazarwolf, as I know that they are Italki. I'd like to preface this by saying that if you were to ask another Jew you'd probably get a different answer (and if someone disagrees with me, feel free to reply with your own answer, I'm sure more answers would help anon). I'm relatively traditional, so my answers reflect this.

I know that Jews have maintained a presence in Italy for centuries, so I have no doubt that Italian culture has at least been somewhat shaped by Judaism, though I can't imagine by much considering most of the country is Roman Catholic. There are no rules saying that you cannot maintain your own ethnic identity and culture along with your Jewish identity. Jews exist in every multitude you could think of, so it's certainly possible and allowed for you to have two identities at once.

What I question, though, is how you would hybridize a predominantly roman Catholic culture with a Jewish one, and more than that, why you would want to. Converting to Judaism is a complete lifestyle change and is incredibly difficult, it's something that you need to really want and be willing to do almost anything for. If you are already saying that you aren't willing to sacrifice for it, it makes me wonder if it's necessarily for you. Which is fine, you can appreciate and learn about Jewish culture and religion without converting. There is an aspect of Judaism that encourages (some would even say requires) a rejection of assimilation into any outside culture, and is something that is stressed in the Torah numerous times. Now, actually enacting this rejection is complicated, as we don't realize just how much the hegemonic culture affects us, but depending on the movement you're converting to I imagine more right-wing sects of Judaism would have an issue with a convert who wanted to convert to Judaism just to "hybridize" it to a separate culture they're trying to adopt. Traditionalists would say it's inappropriate and potentially disrespectful to go into a religion that has existed for thousands of years just to change it to what you want it to be, but others would argue that Judaism is constantly evolving, so there is space for you to be Jewish and whatever else you want to be, and that everyone's Judaism looks different.

So, TLDR: many Jews would not see a problem with this at all and say if you can find a balance, go for it. While others would say that when you convert to Judaism you, in many ways, reject your own culture in favor for another, and that Judaism should not just be part of your life, it should be your life. So, certainly, this depends on what movement you want to convert to, and while it's possible to convert to Judaism and also acquire a separate culture at the same time, some people would have a problem with this.

[lem0nademouth]

maybe this is an unforgiving take but any time i hear some describe “the [country] diaspora” i want to 1. laugh and then 2. take that word away from goyim bc y’all would not know diaspora if it hit you in the face. it’s not about mass migration or immigration, its about repeated expulsion and genocide and exile and discrimination. the Diaspora with a captial D is about the fact that Sephardi Jews have a history that goes Israel/Judea -> Iberian Peninsula -> Spain & Portugal proper -> Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Romania, Greece, Turkey, etc -> America, the UK, Canada, etc. it’s the same for Ashkenazis, Mizrahis, Italkis, Romaniotes, Yemenites, and every. other. diaspora. group. stop fucking stealing our language that defines our history and oppression and generational trauma and making it a synonym for immigration.

[delgado-master]

I don’t want to get involved in whatever beef is going on but jsyk “Italki Jew” doesn’t mean Jewish person of Italian descent. It’s a separate ethnic group with direct ties to the Middle East /gen /info

Oh, yeah I apologize for that. I tried to look it up and got false information. I have blind spots, and I’ll retract that post.

[thegayestcat]

I was doodling headcanons late at night and Abba and Fugo came out so pretty 🥺

Abba is transfem and an Italki jew and Fugo is northern Italian

[plague-vulture]

Leone Abbachio is an italki jew you can't convince me otherwise. little eggshell hat? that's his yarmulke obvs, he's just edgy so it's pointy

[spacelazarwolf]

point and laugh.

[arco-pluris]

My proposal for italkim or descendants pride flag. Based on many flag variations I saw googling and a bit in jew flags by @itscore

Yes I am genetically an Italian and Jewish descendant (and possibly I could be sephardi(m)/sephardic because Hispanic/Luso ancestry but it could be separated), although not ethnoculturally or juridically an italki. Italkians are also known as Bnei Roma, Ebrei Italiani or Roman Jews.

Antisemitics (nazists/anti palestine zionists) don’t touch

[felgueirosa]

trying to find any info abt the italqian language or italqi jews when the website italki exists

[spacelazarwolf]

lmao k we’re gonna talk abt ashkenormativity and the weird hostility some of y’all have toward non ashki jews.

so yesterday i was trying to have a discussion on this post, and the person responded with this:

and then promptly blocked me.

after which they posted a bunch of bullshit that i am now going to tear to shreds.

regarding the above screenshot:

- if you’re defining yiddish culture as “ashkenazi jews who speak yiddish” you are still erasing multiple communities of ashkenazi jews. italian ashkenazi jews migrated or fled to northern italy during the middle ages, long before the establishment of the pale of settlement, and have a culture that is distinctly influenced by italian culture, not eastern european culture.

- sounds like you’re outright excluding any group of ashkenazi jews who don’t speak yiddish or live in central or eastern europe. which is literally the reason i started the dialogue in the first place.

- talking down to me as if i don’t know what the difference between ashkenazi and sephardi is.

- immediately followed by incorrectly defining ashkenazi. ashkenazim are a group of diaspora jews who originally settled in the ashkenaz. there are many different diaspora languages that ashkenazi jews spoke, including judeo-french, judeo-provençal, judeo-czech, and different dialects of judeo-italian.

- kinda sounds like ur saying eastern european jews who speak yiddish are the only “true” ashkenazi jews????????

- yeah there’s lots of issues surrounding the way eastern european jews were viewed, but that’s not what the conversation was about?????

- it’s not really up to you to have or not have an issue with who identifies as ashkenazi.

- there are many ashkenazi groups that have ties in eastern europe. there are also plenty who don’t. there’s overarching similarities between a lot of different diaspora groups, but that doesn’t make them the same. and that’s ok.

- kinda weird how you say “this is a conversation for the jewish community, infuriating how people disagree with us about our own culture” as if i’m not also jewish?? do you not consider me jewish enough to talk about jewish culture or history?

- it’s clear you’ve researched a lot about eastern european jews. it’s also clear that’s the only group you know anything about.

- this conversation had nothing to do with zionism?????? very fucking weird for u to say this??????? especially when i was literally trying to express that ashkenazi jews are incredibly diverse and can’t just be boiled down to “basically eastern european”??????????

- also again homogenizing all ashkenazi jews under “yiddish culture” when you’ve defined yiddish culture as being distinctly eastern european. which. again. not all ashkenazi jews are.

- didn’t try to correct u on ur own culture bud! tried to get u to see that ur own culture is not actually The Only One.

- “because only a non ashkenazi jew can ever accurately represent ashkenazi culture right?” you’ve got some weird aggression toward non ashki jews you should prob unpack.

- again trying to make this abt zionism when i was literally arguing the opposite.

- also i don’t have a “giant blog” lmfao.

- this is funny to me bc u r literally the one who misdefined ashkenazi?????? and attempted to homogenize all ashkenazim under the label of eastern european????? hello?????????

- “irredeemable zionists” yikes bro.

- literally just me when i can’t read and have no critical thinking skills.

- this to me reads like someone who is trying to invert the concept of ashkenormativity and position themself as a victim of non ashki jews. which is absolutely fucking bizarre.

- you’re claiming i’m “denying yiddish culture” while many of your posts actively erase multiple ashkenazi groups from this culture while simultaneously lumping them all in underneath one umbrella eastern european label. like idk how you managed to be so ashkenormative that you managed to erase other ashkenazi jews but it’s almost impressive.

- gee i wonder what it’s like to have ur culture denied surely as a member of a tiny diaspora group that makes up 0.4% of the global jewish population i have no idea what that’s like!

- you are not advocating for diasporism. you are advocating for your culture and your culture only.

anyway, on to my other rant.

if i want to know how to recite a prayer in the ashkenazi rite, i google it. if i want to learn how to speak yiddish, i download duolingo. it’s easy to find these things because people have worked hard to preserve them. and also because ashkenazi jews make up over 60% of the global jewish population and over 70% of the us jewish population.

italian jews, however, including italian ashkenazim, make up 0.4% of the global jewish population. and i couldn’t even find a number for how many of us there are in the us bc there are that few. if i want to know how a certain prayer is chanted in the italian rite, i have to find 70 year old recordings of italian cantors and rabbis singing them for a musicologist who dedicated his life to keeping the italian rite and italki culture alive after it was devastated by the holocaust, bc the only synagogues that still follow the italian rite are in rome and israel. if i want to know how to speak the language my ancestors would have spoken, i have to take a zoom class at oxford at 6am where we study manuscripts from hundreds of years ago. in 1900, there were 20,000 native speakers of judeo-italian dialects. in 2023 there are almost none.

in order to participate in any sort of jewish life where i live, i have to know ashkenazi culture. i have to know the prayers and the songs and the customs. i have to know the food and the language and history.

but y’all don’t have to know mine.

and every time i try to infuse my own heritage into my practice i’m reminded of that. when i make italian jewish food, people don’t see it as “jewish food.” people hear my last name and assume i’m not jewish because it’s not a “jewish name.” when i use italki hebrew, people try to correct me. i frequently encounter other jews who don’t even know italkim exist. so yeah. it is infuriating when i experience constant pressure to assimilate into the dominant jewish culture of where i live only to be a excluded from discussions about that culture because i’m not part of it. i am part of it. i have to be.

ashkenazi culture is beautiful and diverse and i do genuinely enjoy taking part in it. but it is painful to get constant reminders that i don’t really have a choice. it is painful to have people in your own community see your knowledge of their culture as a given but their knowledge of your culture as optional or doing you a favor.

so basically,

you are not being erased by the reminder that jews who are not like you exist.

[spacelazarwolf]

i’m teaching myself how to tie my own tzitzit and i wanted to show y’all the difference between the sephardic style (left) and ashkenazi style (right):

the one on the right was tied by the person i bought the tallit from and the one on the left i tied myself (it’s still messy, it’s gonna take some practice…)

here’s my second try.

[spacelazarwolf]

y’all are just making up words now to feel special. “itali” is a country not a gender bro and you couldn’t even spell it right :3

my guy.