#jedi discourse

[the-bulletproof-heart]

I'm Jedi Critical until the day I die, but the one thing I can fully agree with the Jedi defenders on is that Mace Windu really got screwed over by both the movies and the fandom. He wasn't even that mean to Anakin compared to someone like Yoda, who was a lot harsher to Anakin imo. All of Windu's concerns about Anakin are justified. He's skeptical about Anakin being the Chosen One because there is absolutely no evidence for that other than Anakin being more powerful than the average Jedi. I honestly think Windu was looking out for Anakin in his own way. He's basically saying it's not smart to put all the Jedi's eggs in one "chosen one" basket, which is true. If more people had treated Anakin like a normal Jedi the way Mace does, he wouldn't have been under so much pressure. And I don't think it's "mean" at all to say that a 23 year old is not emotionally mature enough to be a master. It's kind of true, especially based on Anakin's actions.

Like, I think the Jedi screwed Anakin over in a number of ways, but I don't get why the fandom targets Mace specifically? I honestly think he was trying to do the best thing for Anakin. And I like to think that they were genuinely friendly with each other. They almost died together in CW. That's gotta be a pretty big bonding experience.

[astheforcewillsit]

i do think many of the people who have literally critiques against the Jedi Order are typically drowned out by tumblr just being a very "pro-Jedi" site in general, and misconstruing their arguments to make them look dumb.

But for in-depth, neutral conversations about the Jedi, i've found YouTube, twitter, and Redditt are really good. And shockingly have a larger reach than tumblr.

But i'd also really encourage Jedi Critical folks to put on an event or something to share their thoughts and ideas, because the analysis given are really good, but not often shared because of how bias this website is.

like "jedi critical week" where you all share really interesting analysis of the Jedi Order. It could be a really good academic space.

let me know if anyone bites at this idea, i'd love to see where it goes or help out.

[the-far-bright-center]

Re: Obitine and Anidala

I originally wrote this in response to @marvelstars' excellent post on the subject, but I wanted to share it again because it's one of many topics in which I have a differing view from the prevailing fandom perspective.

Above all, it truly drives me nuts how the fandom pits these two relationships against each other. I'm a die-hard Anidala shipper and when I first watched TCW, I was DELIGHTED by the Obitine ship. I saw nothing about it that made me think it was supposed to be viewed as somehow 'better' or more 'ideal' than Anidala. I only ever saw it as a relationship that was more suited to Obi-Wan's character and personality. Not to mention that Padme and Satine are presented as friends who get along well and go on adventures together to right political wrongs, much in the same vein that Anakin and Obi-Wan go on their many military exploits together. The story sets them up as two couples who, in an a more ideal timeline, would be besties who go on double dates together. In my opinion, fandom's insistence on viewing them through the lens of 'which one is a 'morally better couple' is completely missing the point. Personally, I see them as two sides of the same coin.

Since @marvelstars' post was specifically about these two couples as they relate to the idea of commitment to the Jedi Order, I also focused on that angle. Imo, the way Obitine's relationship panned out made sense for their characters and context. Just like Anidala's makes sense for theirs. Obi-Wan and Satine met each other as young adults and had a whole year 'on the run' together before having to say their farewells, whereas Anakin and Padme first meet as children, then re-meet and fall in love over a short span of time, and then suddenly their world is at war and they are facing imminent, possibly indefinite, separation. That's why they marry while still remaining in their respective Jedi and Senator roles, because they feel it might be their only chance to have anything resembling the family they both long for. They understand that they might not survive the war. Whereas Obi-Wan and Satine had first met when Satine's world was already enmeshed in civil war, and then they parted once peace was reestablished and their lives were no longer in immediate danger. And when they meet again during the Clone Wars, it's a wholly different scenario and things have drastically changed (she is the head of a neutral system, he is already established as a general in a war she is opposed to). They are also older, in their 30s, while Anakin and Padme embody the headstrong impetuosity and passion of young love. So it's not as though Obi-Wan and Satine are going to drop everything and enter a committed relationship/marriage in that context in the same way Anakin and Padme do in theirs (when, notably, Anakin is still a padawan and about to be sent to the frontlines to fight in a war for the first time).

As mentioned above, when I was watching TCW I never thought that the purpose of showing both of these relationships in contrasting-parallel to one another was somehow to demonstrate that one was more 'sacrificial' for remaining in the Order and giving up the relationship while the other was more 'selfish' for trying to have both at the same time. Rather, what I feel the story is actually saying is something completely different. It's important to remember that both of these relationships involve a Jedi and the political leader to whom he had originally been assigned as a bodyguard. What is the significance of that? Well, I would argue it's more than just a romantic trope. When I watch Lucas-era Star Wars, I'm always aware that the characters have both an immediate role in-story as well as a symbolic function. Satine, a pacifist, can be seen to represent Peace. Padme, as a Senator, stands for Justice and the rights of the people. And what is it that Obi-Wan says to Luke all those years later? That the Jedi were 'the guardians of Peace and Justice in the old Republic'. This strikes me as hugely significant. Especially if we understand that the Jedi Order had lost its way as of the Prequels-era. While the fandom focuses on which couple is 'better' because of how their relationship affects each Jedi's respective commitment to the Order, I see it from a completely different angle. My understanding is that the Jedi's TRUE purpose (in relation to their role within the Republic) was actually to dedicate their lives to protecting Peace and Justice and those who truly upheld these ideals in the galaxy. Obi-Wan and Anakin's actual callings in life should have been to protect Satine and Padme, whom they loved. Whether this manifested in a more chivalric, courtly love scenario or an outright marriage is immaterial. Rather, what matters is that being a Jedi and dedicating their lives to these women due to their love for them was not incompatible with their role as protectors and defenders of the galaxy, but was in fact the truest expression of it. The so-called 'commitment' to the Order itself was never truly the point, and that's the tragedy of the Prequels-era. Because it was the Order that had by this point forbidden love and family, and which had embroiled Obi-Wan and Anakin and the rest of the Jedi in a war that went against their own principles. A war that, it could be argued, ultimately lead to the deaths of both Satine and Padme, and with them Peace and Justice—the very values that the Jedi were supposed to protect and serve.

[highfantasy-soul]

Ooohh I'm so interested in where The Acolyte is going with the story and characters.

It's really solidifying my horror at the Jedi's conduct when it comes to children, trying to claim 'We're actually giving you the choice - YOU get to decide!' when the 'you' is....an 8 year old. In Sol's case, a 4 year old.

An 8 year old cannot consent.

An 8 year old should not be allowed to join the army.

An 8 year old should not be taken from their family, never to see them again, because they heard some stories about a cool warrior group with magic powers who fly through the galaxy and wanted to join them.

The witches using some sort of mind-altering power on Torbin was viewed has horrific to the Jedi invaders, but where was that horror when Jedi do their mind tricks, controlling other's actions and reading their minds - all with the might of a military behind them?

Both options: staying with the coven for life and joining the Jedi to be cut off from her family forever, are bad for Osha.

Osha's mom shouldn't have tried to force the ritual on her, but nor should the only other option be to go join the Jedi cult.

The show is doing a great job at introducing all these different factions and desires and just putting them on the table in front of us and saying 'yeah, this is messy and no one is the perfect good guy in this galaxy'.

I've always hated the notion that the Jedi are perfect good guys and I'm glad that's being explored with nuance here. The Jedi are a high-control organization that preys on toddlers and trains child soldiers. Do they do some good things? Yeah. But the nature of their organization and colonial tendencies (going into foreign cultures to steal their resources (force sensitive individuals) to use for their own gain) cause them to do some pretty bad things, too.

Blah blah blah, hero worship bad, all powerful organizations will have bad aspects to them.

This is the type of Star Wars I love - these are the types of issues I love delving into and I'm super excited to see the whole story of what happened on Osha's home planet. There's not a doubt in my mind that Sol lied when he said Mae killed everyone - Torbin wouldn't have been so guilt-ridden if that had been the case and Kelnacca wouldn't have chosen isolation. I'm really enjoying the layers that are peeled back each episode and can't wait for more!

[kateeorg]

Between the gods discourse from Critical Role and the Force/Jedi/Sith discourse from The Acolyte, I'm just like... even fictional religion is stressful to talk about, man. Really interesting, sure, but the implications and different factions and multitude of things to consider just make my head hurt and I need to stop looking at it and take a break.

[r0gerr0ger]

Master-padawan relationships are so fascinating in their uniqueness.

Specifically in how unique each relationship is based on age difference between master and padawan.

Obi-Wan is 13 when he becomes Qui-Gon’s padawan, compared to Anakin’s 9. But Qui-Gon is in his late 30s compared to Obi-Wan’s mid-20s as a master. This means Obi-Wan’s relationship is closer to a father-son with his master, versus brotherly with Anakin.

Anakin and Ahsoka are even more like siblings, being so close in age (seriously, how was Anakin allowed a padawan at 19)

So some padawans are growing up with a parental figure. Others with more of a sibling.

The way this would change each Jedi is fundamental. We see this clearly with Obi-Wan compared to Anakin.

Undoubtedly, I also believe it would have impacted Anakin’s fall to the dark side.

It wouldn’t have prevented it (very little if anything could have; it’s what makes the prequels a tragedy) but with a father-figure- someone to reprimand him, to be more authoritative, etc.- perhaps he would have lent less heavily on Palpatine.

Perhaps he would have been guided more openly through his relationship with Padme (here I feel Qui-Gon would have been happy to actually talk about it)

Perhaps Anakin would have felt he could get away with less leading up to his fall. He would have tried harder to stick to the Jedi way- to emulate a father, rather than out-compete a brother.

And yet, equally, I think it could have made his fall all the more terrible.

Often, bitterness for a parent is so much heavier than for a sibling. Anakin would have killed Qui-Gon. He would have levelled so much blame on him. From a slightly different perspective, may even have fallen to the dark side sooner- driven there by resentment, by a need to prove himself.

Obviously, there are so many other factors at play that shaped the way Anakin turned out versus Obi-Wan, but I think their differing master-padawan relationships from an age perspective are hugely important.

What do you think?

(also, how would Ashoka’s life have been different if, say Obi-Wan, was her master?)

[shadowmaat]

The Jedi were evil all along!

I debated replying to the thread I saw condemning the Jedi as "rigid" and implying they weren't that different from the Sith, but I would have been the only voice of dissent and given that one of the replies was from a Red Hat Cultist veering off on a frothy anti-Obama rant, I figured it was safer to just make my own post.

Look, no one is saying the Jedi are perfect, but they sure as fuck aren't evil, either. If you're basing your entire opinion on the thoughts and experiences of one individual then your view is incredibly flawed and you should maybe think outside the narrow hole you've dug for yourself.

From what I can tell, some of the worst critics of the Jedi seem to be fans of Anakin Skywalker. Or at least a carefully curated version of Anakin who was a perpetual victim and never did anything wrong. It seems to boil down to "if the Jedi had just let Anakin be openly married to Padmè, nothing bad would have happened!" Which is... certainly a take.

The one argument I see trumpeted over and over (and over) again is that the Jedi prohibition against "attachment" is terrible and wrong and makes them no better than the Sith. This hinges almost entirely on the idea that "attachment" is the same thing as "love."

It isn't. Fans have spent decades explaining why it isn't only to have their reasoning mostly ignored in favor of the more angsty/tragic idea that the Jedi were forbidden to love. 🙄

"Attachment," IMO, can best be summed up as a literal interpretation of this ever-popular gif:

[img: Rosa from Brooklyn 99. She's holding a small yellow lab puppy as she says, "I've only had Arlo for a day and a half, but if anything happened to him I would kill everyone in this room and then myself."]

Anakin has, admittedly, "had" Padmè for three years instead of a day and a half, but when he thought she was going to die, he killed everyone in the Temple, then killed her, and then continued on a murderous rampage for the next 19 years or so.

"Attachment" is dangerous for anyone, but especially for someone like Anakin, who has additional powers at his command, rigorous training in how to use them, and three years experience as a war leader.

Personally, I also have questions about whether or not marriage is actually forbidden among the Jedi or if Anakin just assumed it was because "attachment." I can see it not being a common thing, and I can also understand a relationship coming under scrutiny to insure that it's a healthy form of love that won't interfere with a Jedi's ability to do their job, but it wouldn't surprise me if Anakin never looked into it because it would mean "sharing" Padmè with others.

Even if marriage wasn't allowed as a whole formal, legalized thing it doesn't mean Jedi can't form relationships. It would, as usual with the Jedi, be about balance. Can someone balance their personal relationship with their commitments to the Order? Can they set their loved one aside to do what must be done? Or will they drop everything to immediately rush to their loved one's side regardless of the risk to others?

We all know what Anakin would do; we've seen it with our own eyes.

The point is, condemning the entire Jedi Order because they didn't give Anakin everything he wanted, when he wanted it, and without question is a little bit of a stretch. Plus, all jokes about his inability to keep a secret aside, it isn't as if he ever went to them to discuss things.

"Well, he didn't think he could trust them because they hated him!" Uh, no, they decidedly didn't hate him, he just believed they did. It all hinges on his beliefs, not reality. And while you could certainly blame Palpatine for reinforcing his beliefs that the Jedi can't be trusted and that everyone hates/is jealous of him, it isn't as if Palps made that up out of thin air: he built on the seeds already within Anakin.

"That's because the Jedi-" No. Insecurities are rarely rational, and while you can argue that the Jedi "didn't do enough" to help Anakin, there are a few salient points to remember:

Anakin isn't the only Jedi in the Order; they have thousands of people to consider.

You have to know there's a problem in order to help.

The person has to be willing to accept that help in order for things to change.

The last two points also apply to those who would condemn Obi-Wan in particular. He has to KNOW a problem exists and then he has to talk his way around to try and get Anakin to accept his help. I know from personal experience just how heartbreakingly difficult it is to help a loved one when they won't admit there's a problem or they won't listen to your advice.

I can think of a lot of ideas that would be fun to experiment with in terms of making changes to the Jedi Order, but most of them involve adding more distance from the Senate and none of them are about catering to the specific (perceived) needs of one Jedi.

[obiwanwhat]

I’m really really hoping that Dave Filoni does not blink in this game of “Jedi Sabine” chicken. Like if he pulls a “oh ho she was force sensitive this entire time!” I will be so disappointed I desperately want “yes she’s a jedi. No she’s not force sensitive. No we will not be elaborating”

[mr-bottle-28-3-96]

Good lord, why is it so hard for Star Wars fans to make nuanced takes re: the Jedi and attachment.

No, attachment =/= love.

The Jedi methodology of handling attachment, especially regarding Anakin, a 9 year old recently freed slave who misses his mother, was fucking abysmal, and George can go fuck himself.

No, Anakin as an adult was not a good person with healthy relationships.

Yes, Anakin was explicitly groomed by Palpatine.

The Jedi failed to earn Anakin's trust time and time again despite having raised him for a decade, during which time they allowed Anakin to be groomed by Palpatine. There is no evidence of any meaningful intervention on their part regarding said grooming.

I swear. You people are so attached to the ideal of the Jedi that you will ignore and excuse every flaw that is actually identifiable on screen.

And no, identifying a causal/contibutary relationship between the structure/actions of the Jedi Order and its fall does not imply that they deserved a fucking massacre.

And before I leave, Obi-Wan Kenobi holds a lot of culturally chauvinistic viewpoints, literally depicted since his introduction in ANH, and you hold him up as an ideal Jedi, so... says a lot about you Jedi apologists.

[snipsnipsnippy]

Watching Jedi discourse is both entertaining and mind numbing. So naturally, I’m going to hop in.

The amount of times I see “how can you criticize the Jedi, they’re all about peace and harmony” melts my brain every time because? If you go in with an elementary level of comprehension? Sure? I guess? But that’s not what defines them. It’s like sneezing and calling it a flu. They’re incredibly non-specific symptoms not features. At some point, you need to grow up and explore the grey area.

And since these people are such purists, this comes from Lucas’s fucking mouth in a TPM era storyboard session where he says the distinction between light and dark is not love vs hate. It is selflessness vs selfishness.

The Jedi are not intrinsically peaceful. They are intrinsically selfless. And it’s so fucking wild to characterize them as pacifists when they are essentially the galactic special police? Fortunately, they are probably the best for the job, since they put killing as a last resort, but it is still their entire job description to make that decision. Even in a time of ‘peace’ like the High Republic era, they’re still out headhunting. And, I don’t know, it just rubs me the wrong way to imagine what is ostensibly a religious philosophy meant to be an immovable system of beliefs be put in service of a political institution victim to the fallacy and trends of people en masse.

And sure, selflessness can manifest in peacekeeping if that’s the objective of who they are in service to, but the entire point of the prequel trilogy was to show how easily that can be corrupted. Your ‘pacifists’ quickly become generals of war because their service to the Republic demands it. It wasn’t their duty to peace that dragged them to war, it was the word of the Chancellor. The Jedi are not immune to criticism simply because they are have a moral philosophy you agree with. And you know what? We probably should criticize the people holding the quite literally unstoppable weapons.

Your heroes aren’t perfect, and sometimes, they are, in fact, wrong.

[maaruin]

Ask game #3- star wars

"screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr"

Joke answer: It is likely that I have seen GIFs of the scene in which Luke tried to kill Ben Solo/Kylo Ren in his sleep on tumblr, which makes it a take on Luke's character that I have seen on tumblr in is probably worse than anything else I have seen on here. (I have seen even worse takes in other parts of the internet though...) Serious answer: I will note that often even the very extreme Star Wars takes have a logic to them I can respect. I can largely understand the Jedi haters and the Jedi apologists. I can sympathize with Reylos and anti-Reylos. Even though they all often make points I disagree with and sometimes get frustrated or angry with.

If would suspect I saw the worst take in discourse about the Sequels, and my memories about that are rather hazy. So I might be conflating different takes when I state what I consider the worst take to be: That killing Han specifically was Kylo Ren's unforgivable deed. Declaring anything in Star Wars as unforgivable/unredeemable is already something I think goes against the spirit of Star Wars, but I can see arguments in favor of that. But killing Han was far from the worst thing Kylo Ren did and the reason I suspect why someone would say that is that they have more attachment to Han than to the civilians Kylo Ren had executed at the beginning of the movie. (However, even with this take I am open to hearing the argument that patricide is always worse than killing strangers - or, hell, if you go full ethical subjectivism on me I might even see the point that the bad things characters do in stories are always crimes against the reader... wait, looks like I just came up with a take more weird than I thought possible. Maybe I should elaborate that take in a post so I can say that the worst Star Wars take I have seen on tumblr is on my own blog.)

[the-far-bright-center]

That’s the whole point. Coruscant represents the extravagance and decay, the disparities of greed and poverty. It represents the rot at the center of the Republic. The Jedi Temple may have been constructed prior to the point at which Coruscant ended up in such a state, but by the time of the Twilight of the Republic, it is essentially an ivory tower that is far removed from both the natural world and from the people of the galaxy.

Why tf is the Jedi Temple on Coruscant? That’s like the fucking Vatican being in Vegas?

[the-far-bright-center]

'I had a mother who loved me'

(aka, the Jedi Order is NOT Anakin's family)

This is a topic that I've seen discussed elsewhere and I felt compelled to add my own thoughts. I've seen some takes I vehemently disagree with, especially regarding Shmi and Little Ani in TPM, and Anakin's 'decision' to leave with Qui-Gon. It's crazy how some people will blame little Ani for 'wanting' to be a Jedi, yet apparently Luke in ANH is allowed to want this, even though Luke likewise barely knows anything about what being a Jedi entails, and even though it's much more risky (and, frankly, far more unrealistic) to dream of becoming a Jedi in the Dark Times era?? As if a nine-year-old slave-boy wanting to take part in his new-found freedom by learning to be something he associates with heroism means he somehow 'should have known' he wasn’t going to be a ‘good fit’ for the Order. My argument is that there was nothing wrong with Anakin, and there was in fact no legitimate reason for him or ANYONE ELSE to believe he'd not be good at using the Force to help others (which is what the Jedi are supposed to do), especially when he had literally just done so in the pod-race. The whole reason Qui-Gon noticed Anakin was because of how strong in the Force he already was, even untrained. Qui-Gon has faith in him, it's just the Jedi Council that doubts him. Because, unlike Qui-Gon who perceives Anakin's positive qualities and potential, Yoda and the Jedi Council are afraid of him. Because Anakin is basically an 'unknown' (read: uncontrollable) entity suddenly in their midst.

While the Prequels film-canon stands on its own in this regard, we can also look to the novelizations for even more emphasis on this topic. In the TPM novelization, several things are noteable: first of all, even before Qui-Gon arrives, Anakin has had prophetic dreams about becoming a Jedi. And since Shmi is aware that Ani's dreams and visions do often come to pass, when Qui-Gon appears and offers to take him away to be trained, why wouldn't she think that maybe this was somehow Force (or Fate) ordained? And that therefore it was the right thing to do to let him go? And the second thing, is while it's also clear that Little Ani (like Luke!) has a romanticised view of what being a Jedi might be like, his actual motivation for becoming a Jedi is not simply because he 'selfishly' wants to embark on some fun adventure without his mom. On the contrary, every. single. time. little Ani thinks about the possibility of becoming a Jedi or leaving Tatooine, it's directly in relation to eventually returning to FREE his mother and the rest of the slaves:

He was several things in the course of his dreams. Once he was a Jedi Knight, fighting against things so dark and insubstantial he could not identify them. Once he was a pilot of a star cruiser, taking the ship into hyperspace, spanning whole star systems on his voyage. Once he was a great and feared commander of an army, and he came back to Tatooine with ships and troops at his command to free the planet’s slaves. His mother was waiting for him, smiling, arms outstretched.

and

He gazed skyward, his mother's hand resting lightly on his arm, and thought about what it would be like to be out there, flying battle cruisers and fighters, traveling to far worlds and strange places. He didn't care what Wald said, he wouldn't be a slave all his life. Just as he wouldn't always be a boy. He would find a way to leave Tatooine. He would find a way to take his mother with him. His dreams whirled through his head as he watched the stars, a kaleidoscope of bright images. He imagined how it would be. He saw it clearly in his mind, and it made him smile.

Anakin wants to escape slavery and train as a Jedi so he can come back and continue helping his friends and family on Tatooine. So he can return to free the slaves. Little does he know that he won't be allowed to do that... :'(

It's important to note as well that at this point, Anakin *also* has no idea that, as a Jedi, he won't be allowed to get married and have a family. Even though he is already naively imagining himself someday marrying Padme. So he doesn't know that not only will he not be permitted to return for his mother as he'd always hoped, but he will also technically not be allowed to even have a family of his own even when he's old enough to do so.

And what of Shmi's thoughts on Anakin becoming a Jedi? At the start of the AotC novelization, she is trying to be happy with the thought of it, but ONLY because she believes he must be living his best life as a Jedi. She has no idea that he had to go through rejection first before being accepted into the Order. The AotC novelization shows that as Shmi is being held captive and tortured by the Tusken Raiders, she tries to comfort herself by holding onto her imagination of what Anakin's time as Jedi is like:

All those times staring up at the night sky, she had thought of him, had imagined him soaring across the galaxy, rescuing the downtrodden, saving planets from ravaging monsters and evil tyrants. But she had always expected to see [Ani] again, had always expected him to walk onto the moisture farm one day, that impish smile of his, the one that could light up a room, greeting her as if they had never been apart.

Heartbreakingly, as Shmi is being brutalised to death, she clings to the hope that her beloved Ani's life is now better than it was before, and that it was worth saying farewell to him all those years ago, even while simultaneously desperately longing to see him again.

As an aside, it aggravates me to no end that *cough* certain parts of this fandom perpetuate the idea that Shmi is just some blank, wholly selfless entity with no wants or desires of her own. That she's the ‘perfect’ example of a Jedi with no 'attachments' (aka an Old Order Jedi), and that somehow Anakin is a just a 'failure' compared to her. Yes, it could be argued that Shmi is shown to be a better or truer 'Jedi' than most of the other Jedi in the story (aside from Luke in RotJ), but guess what that would mean in that case? (Hint: it has to do with love and family.) Because first and foremost, Shmi is a MOTHER who is trying to do the best for her son, even though a piece of her heart is always missing while he is gone. The AotC novelization shows repeatedly that she tries to assure herself that she did the right thing by letting Ani go, but the human mother side of herself also cries out for him and misses him desperately. She might have let him go in TPM, but in AoTC she wants to see him again. In fact, she believes strongly that she will see him again (because she loves him and he’s her hero because she’s his mom and she trusts he will eventually come back to find her), which is the only thing keeping her holding on until he arrives. How can Shmi be a perfect example of an Old Order Jedi when the motivating factor for even her most selfless actions is her personal FAMILIAL attachment to and unconditional LOVE for Anakin?? Also, how insulting is it to claim that Anakin is a 'failure' in comparison to his 'wonderful, perfect mother', and then proceed to place all the blame on him for being said 'failure'....when he was shown on-screen to be doing just fine in taking after his mother prior to his time in the Jedi Order????

As another poster noted elsewhere, Shmi Skywalker is the only person responsible for the truly good person Anakin Skywalker was.

This is the heart of the entire saga. Anakin's True Self is good because of his mother. Because of how she raised him (to be selfless and to want to help others) and because of the unconditional LOVE she had for him. It was the Jedi Order that failed to provide that for Anakin, and Sidious who manipulated the situation to his advantage.

(And if Shmi was the only person who truly solidified Anakin's inner goodness, then Qui-Gon was the only Jedi who was presented as being equipped to bring out the best in Anakin when Shmi wasn't around. The only one who was prepared to act as an openly warm and compassionate parental figure to Anakin, the only one who could have properly mentored Anakin and helped him navigate both his Force powers as well as the Jedi Code, and the only one who was shown to be willing to stand up to the Council on Anakin's behalf. The tragedy is not that Qui-Gon found Anakin or even that he offered to take him to train in the Force. Rather, the tragedy is that Qui-Gon is slain in the Duel of the Fates, which leaves Anakin without a true protector and advocate in the Order, and allows Sidious an 'in'.)

So the idea that the Jedi Order is Anakin's ‘replacement family' is simply not true—certainly not in the way the story actually pans out. It's telling that, in the original Prequels-era EU, Anakin ran away from the Jedi Temple multiple times. That is NOT the behaviour of a happy child. (It is, however, typical behaviour for children who are struggling in institutionalised care.)

And indeed, the very first paragraph of the AotC novelization opens with Anakin dreaming that he is part of a warm, loving family:

His mind absorbed the scene before him, so quiet and calm and...normal. It was the life he had always wanted, a gathering of family and friends—he knew that they were just that, though the only one he recognized was his dear mother. This was the way it was supposed to be. The warmth and the love, the laughter and the quiet times. This was how he had always dreamed it would be, how he had always prayed it would be. The warm, inviting smiles. The pleasant conversation. The gentle pats on the shoulders. But most of all there was the smile of his beloved mother, so happy now, no more a slave. When she looked at him, he saw all of that and more, saw how proud she was him, how joyful her life had become.

Why would Anakin be dreaming longingly of being part of an openly loving, happy family if he already had that at the Jedi Temple? (Tellingly, he notes that this seems like something normal, as if he's aware that it ought to be commonplace despite the fact that it's currently missing from his own life.)

And later on, when he's visiting Padme's parents' house for dinner, he sees this exact type of scene he's been longing for play out right in front of him, and he wishes that his mother could be there to enjoy it, too:

Anakin took a good helping of several different dishes. The food was all unfamiliar, but the smells told him that he wouldn’t be disappointed. He sat quietly as he ate, listening with half an ear to the chatter all about him. He was thinking of his mom again, of how he wished he could bring her here, a free woman, to live the life she so deserved.

Note that Anakin is thinking about his mother, and putting her first in his mind. He can barely enjoy the meal while he believes his mother could be out there, suffering.

Later on as he and Padme are heading to Tatooine to search for Shmi, they bond over the fact that both their mothers told them the same nursery rhyme ('home again to rest'). It means a lot to Anakin that he can bond with Padme over this similar childhood memory. (No doubt something he would not have had in common with his peers in the Temple, since their only childhood memories would have been within the Jedi Order, rather than in a true home. And certainly not with a mother.)

Finally, we get to the RotS novelization. Yes, THAT one. The one in which we see that Anakin was perfectly willing to walk away from the Order the minute he returned from the war and discovered Padme was pregnant. Willing to walk away to start their FAMILY together. But then his nightmares began, and he reluctantly stayed just a little longer, thinking the Jedi (whom he originally joined with the express intent of wanting to help his loved ones) could offer him some solution to the horror his nightmares were showing him:

If not for his dreams, he’d withdraw from the Order today. Now. ...Let the scandal come; it wouldn’t destroy their lives. Not their real lives. It would destroy only the lives they’d had before each other: those separate years that now meant nothing at all.

To drive the point home, we also have the pivotal scene where Obi-Wan—speaking on the Council's behalf—tries to convince Anakin to spy on the Chancellor. Their exchange says it all:

"He's my friend, Obi-Wan." "I know." "If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it? You know how kind he's been to me. You now how he's looked after me, how he's done everything he could to help me. He's like family." "The Jedi are your family." "No. No, the Jedi are your family. The only one you've ever known. I had a mother who loved me."

Anakin's story breaks my heart because all he wants—all he has ever wanted—is a family. Not to just to 'have' one in a vague sense, but to be PART OF ONE. He wants this, because even when he was slave living an unfree life, at least he had his mother. At least he could feel his mother's love, and could openly demonstrate his love to her in return. For Anakin Skywalker, being a Jedi was never the goal in and of itself. In his mind, it was always primarily a means to save those he loved. To save his family. This is simultaneously the most tragic and the most beautiful thing about his character. It is both his fall AND his redemption.

And those who insist on ignoring Anakin’s deep-seated longing for a family and want to act as though he should just be content with the Jedi Order instead are willfully missing the entire point of his story.

[the-far-bright-center]

In my view, ‘Star Wars’ is the Prequels and Original Trilogy—aka, the story of Anakin’s rise, fall, and redemption. In other words, the Skywalker saga. I simply cannot relate to the (imo, fanon) idea that the Jedi are the MAIN protagonists of the story. This was never the case, not in the Lucas saga, at least. It’s not that the Jedi are the ‘bad guys’, either—it’s just that the Skywalker family is what the saga is actually about. The Sith vs. Jedi struggle is simply the *backdrop* against which the story is set. The fact that so many fans seem to insist otherwise is one of the many reasons I struggle to engage with current SW fandom.

[the-far-bright-center]

The Jedi *Order* in the Prequels came across negatively to me in comparison to my previous impressions of 'the Jedi' in the Original Trilogy

I’ve said it before, but I really struggle to relate to the side of the SW fandom that is obsessed with stanning the Prequels-era Jedi *Order* for its own sake. Debates about the specifics of the Jedi belief system aside, it's just that, from my personal perspective, based solely on the Prequels films, the Prequels-era Jedi Order as an *institution* is so.... uninspiring??? And, even, I daresay, rather unsympathetic. There are of course individual Jedi I adore, but the Order as a whole??? Ehhh. I can only speak for myself, but growing up as a massive Star Wars fan who had only ever watched the Original Trilogy films (I didn't have much exposure or access to the Expanded Universe material until I was older), I remember thinking the way the Jedi were portrayed in the Prequels was unexpected for a lot of reasons, and that it was largely a NEGATIVE 'reveal'. NOT that the story was bad, but just that the Jedi as an institution was not what I'd expected when Jedi were mentioned in the OT.

It was also clear to me that this was not an accident, this was a purposeful 'twist' on the OT audiences' expectations. And that it was therefore meant to tell us something about the state of the Jedi at this point in time.

The major thing that stood out was the fact that THE main Jedi Temple was located on Coruscant. I'd always pictured Jedi Temples to be in more remote and situated in nature, in keeping with their mystical, spiritual vibe established in the OT. Our only previous exposure to 'Jedi' from the pre-Dark Times at that stage had been two hermits who'd been living in remote areas, Obi-Wan and Yoda. So I'd certainly never imagined the main Temple would be a big ivory tower on a teeming city-planet and situated just around the corner from the Galactic Senate. Yoda being the 'Grand Master' and being so prominent in this setting was also a mindfuck. People may not even register it as such these days, but at the time it was unsettling to see him in that ‘grandiose’ role when all you'd ever known of the character previously was a quirky (but seemingly humble) swamp muppet. It immediately made me question what the heck was going on with the power dynamics of the Jedi Council in that era.....it actually seemed distressingly 'out of character' for the Yoda we'd always known from the OT, and this sense of incongruity informed my impression of the Jedi Order in the Prequel-era.

Going back to the OT, perhaps some fans who were familiar with the post-RotJ EU already had a certain view of Jedi Order prior to the Prequels' release that they were attached to....I don't know. In my case, I was a child when I watched the OT, and back then I never really thought about the Jedi one way or another as an organisation. And since I wasn't into the post-RotJ EU novels, I had no preconceived ideas based on that supplementary material, either. But once the Jedi Order was presented on-screen in the Prequels, I never looked upon it fondly or as something aspirational. It seemed pretty clear that this was an organisation that had changed from what it should have been and was no longer the most ideal version of itself. There was a coldness there, as well as a sense of being far removed from both humanity and nature that hadn't been present in my impression of 'a Jedi' in the OT (which was of course based almost entirely on Luke and his hero's journey). So I'm always pretty baffled when people want to view the Jedi at the Grand Temple during the Twilight of the Republic and Clone Wars era as some kind of carefree 'wizarding school set in space' rather than 'the Knights Templar just before their downfall'. I don’t share the rosey interpretation that some have, largely because the Prequels-era Jedi did not value love and family, and were essentially 'slaves of the Republic' themselves, in servitude to a corrupt and failing government. In the end, becoming militarised and participating in a Sith-run war, utilising enslaved soldiers as their cannon fodder. This is not a warm happy little enclave of space wizards that I've ever had any wish to fantasise about in a 'self-insert' kind of way.

While our first introduction to individual Jedi (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) in TPM is largely positive, there are already hints that something is off — the fact that they are so strongly bound to their 'mission' and answerable to and expected to obey the Council, for one. (Recall that Luke's trajectory in the OT is one of largely disobeying the Jedi authorities mentoring him.) And when we finally meet said Council— in a scene that is, chronologically, our very first introduction to the Jedi as an institution in the entire saga — we a shown a group of cold, unsympathetic monks sitting high atop their tower looking down upon a slave boy dressed in rags. And this slave boy, who had just been shown on-screen to be a selfless and heroic character, is nonetheless viewed disdainfully by this group as being unworthy of their time or attention, simply for the circumstances of his existence. His status as Chosen One, believed in so strongly by the warm and amiable Qui-Gon, is met with fear and skepticism by the other Jedi simply due to the fact that he's not what they expected. They expected to be handed a baby or a small child whom they could mold into their figurehead and ideal saviour from a young age. If the Chosen One was indeed real, then they'd hoped the one sent to them would be too young to remember his origins, rather than a boy raised in slavery who still feared for his enslaved mother's life.

Now, who am I going to empathise with, based on that scene alone? It's certainly not the Jedi Order, that's for sure.

To be clear, when I first watched TPM all those years ago, Qui-Gon Jinn was my favourite character, so it's not that I came away disliking 'the Jedi' as a concept. It's just that I could see that the Jedi character I'd found the most sympathetic and compelling was in fact viewed as a 'maverick' at odds with the majority rule, rather than as someone representative of the typical Jedi approach and mindset of that era.

In this matter, my view of the Jedi Order is still to this day founded on how it was first presented to the audience onscreen in the Lucas-era films (NOT how the EU or Disney canon or any other supplementary material portrays them). And in TPM, my very first impression was that some of the individual Jedi members are highly sympathetic and trying their best, but that 'the Order' itself comes across as cold and unsympathetic towards the characters who had already been established at that point as the protagonists of the story.

[kcrabb88]

It's truly wild to me how many people out there don't understand that the Star Wars prequels are a tragedy or how tragedies work.

Posts like "these are the Jedi failed movies" truly just make me shake my head. They're actually the "fascism wears a smile until it strikes you down and then it's too late" movies. They're the "the senate became corrupt and clapped in the face of genocide" movies. They're the "make people scared enough of war until they accept authoritarianism" movies. They're the "fear and possessiveness will tear you up on the inside" movies. The Jedi were the heroes of lore, people loved and looked up to them, looked to them for safety, and then too much got put on their shoulders on purpose by Palpatine, and also by a senate that didn't want to act (not you Padme and Bail and Mon, you're perfect). They were drafted and used and scapegoated, which is, you know, a tenet of the vast majority of authoritarian governments (Hitler and Stalin, for instance, might be on different ends of the political spectrum, but they sure both did scapegoat specific groups and commit mass murder, just differently).

When some people say "these movies are about the fall of the Jedi" what they mean is "the Jedi failed" but that's not what "the fall of the Jedi means." It means they were wiped the fuck OUT. Like, Jesus, in Rogue One Tarkin is talking about burning out the final MEMORY of the Jedi by blowing up the holy city in Jedha. Palpatine had to get rid of the Jedi because to get rid of the Jedi was to get rid of the final people standing in his way after he had already worn them out. His intention was not only to kill them, but to alter the galaxy's entire perception of them. To rip away hope. People are always looking for the Jedi to be Bad or nitpick their mistakes (because while other people are allowed to make mistakes, the Jedi never are). Palpatine made himself look like a benevolent grandpa who would keep everyone safe. And that, more than anything, is what gave him SO much power. He stole the narrative.

It's just like. Of course WE know what was going to happen! We know from watching the OT that the PT can only end in tragedy. But the characters don't know that! They don't have all the info! That's how a tragic story structure works. We see it coming and they can't.

Anyway. The Jedi are laser-sword wielding monks with psychic powers who just wanted to do what they could to help. The world would be better if more folks remembered that.