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swordsandarms · 6 months

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"Why did Rhaegar leave a whole THREE Kingsguards with Lyanna? Why did he leave Jaime, A CHILD, to PROTECT his family? Why wasn't Arthur, a DORNISH man, with Elia?"

These or other individual questions about the Kingsguards during the Rebellion era keep coming up every now and then. Usually, it concerns questioning Rhaegar's motivations, sometimes even Jaime's morality or culpability, as well as the morality of said Kingsguards.

But I was having a conversation with some fans and it comes down to the same issue: no one considers the Targaryen politics at the time, and fragment these circumstances in shallow bits and pieces, naturally, coming down to "there's no good explanation for this!"

Everyone hates that these two Targaryen men have genuine character complexity, especially in rapport with eachother: Rhaegar and Aerys.

Let's go over the Kingsguard at the end of Aerys' reign, and actually consider allegiance and what the mean, and how those would actually easily explain a lot-

Jon Darry, Darry cousin: unclear loyalty, when it comes down to the Aerys-Rhaegar conflict. Darrys are without a doubt Targaryen men, but we don't know if and who they would choose. Darrys are most of all connected with Viserys and Rhaella, who are very sheltered from the rest of the world all the same. Darrys might have been sideline in the Aerys-Rhaegar conflict by such default then, and eventually Jon would be sent to the Trident anyway. But then again, unquestionable loyalty to House Targaryen sounds like a traditionalist approach.

Arthur Dayne: Rhaegar's man without a doubt. His oldest and closest friend.

Oswell Whent: Rhaegar's man. He's with him at the Tower and rumours are his family conspired alongside him to get the Lords at Harrenhal to stage Aerys' usurpation.

Gerold Hightower, Comander: King's (Aerys') man. The scene at the King's doors is often brought up in discussions about the ethics of the KG. But it actually also unveils a key political information within the Aerys-Rhaegar factions. Whether it's a matter of adhering to the status quo only, or personal allegiance to Aerys as well, the message is clear: even when it's between two royals, it's the King he will stand by, no matter what, even when he's not in the right (and if his son tries to usurp him, then technically he is).

Barristan Selmy: Barristan undergoes a character development during the main series in which he finally questions unquestionable allegiance to a King no matter their morality. A past Barristan, however, would then resemble a Ser Gerold, and be in the King's (Aerys) service before anything by virtue of duty. Notably, he would later reflect that Rhaegar did not find him fit to be in his confidence, and these expectations are probably why.

Lewyn Martell: Easily Elia's and Rhaegar's man, and Dornish. Noted as being in his confidence.

Jaime Lannister: One that causes a lot of controversy. A lot of back and forth discussion as to what expectations Rhaegar had of Jaime (and whether Jaime himself fulfilled them). The answer can actually be seen easily by:

1. Looking at it with the awareness that there was a faction divide existed in the KG in between Aerys and Rhaegar, as it was building up to a conflict and hence-

2. Reading their last conversation with that in mind

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

For one, Jaime is the last KG left in King's Landing, and one to be kept close to Aerys himself. And Rhaegar is taking him into his confidence before he leaves - he is pretty much talking treason, hinting at usurpation upon his return.

Why did he leave Jaime, A CHILD, to PROTECT his family?

First of all, he doesn't leave Jaime himself in that post. As seen above, Aerys calls the shots. We know from the Ice and Fire "history book" that he sent Lewyn away from Elia as well for being Dornish (while before he was stationed with her and the kids on Dragonstone in Rhaegar's absence) and he commands Jaime to stay. As it appears, he also sends Darry and Selmy with him (with Selmy being a traditionalist at the time, it may even be to keep an eye on Rhaegar).

Rhaegar doesn't have a choice of whom to ask to look out for Elia and the children, no matter which KG would've been in town. He makes that clear. And as to expectations he has of the only one left and whom he can have a word with, while Jaime is, yes, by all means considered a grown man in their society AND a capable soldier who's well trained and already been in combat, he's not asking for Jaime to stand between his family and an army or anything.

There's not meant to be an army. That's meant to be Rhaegar's job to prevent. He's going out to battle. He's meant to give Robert a honorable single combat, prove himself as strong and fair - unlike the mockery of a "trial by combat" Aerys gave Rickard. Hence prove himself unlike his father first of all, probably give his explanations about Lyanna, and also make it clear he's against Aerys' actions and wanting to give the justice by deposing him.

No, Rhaegar isn't irresponsible, dumping that burden on younger Jaime. He does the responsible thing of taking all that upon himself. What does he expect of Jaime? As read above, he does not put Jaime in the mindset of a fighting machine that's supposed to save his family from anything unrealistic. He puts him in the mindset of someone who would be his man and oppose Aerys when the time comes - he's meant to be the one threat to his family when the chips fall down and he is taking the throne.

Whatever reading Rhaegar did of Jaime, he thought he could say those words to him (that would've been dangerous if he were wrong), that Jaime would have it in him to turn against Aerys (again not some ridiculous expectation - a frail man). And Rhaegar is clearly not dumb. He was right in his perception, wasn't he? (Is this where Jon Snow gets his amazing perceptive skills - "little his eyes do not see").

Why wasn't Arthur, a DORNISH man, with Elia?

Why would he be allowed to? We've already established Aerys calls the shots. And among them there's one KG specifically being sent away because he's Dornish and hence loyal to Elia (and Rhaegar). If Lewyn couldn't be there, why would Arthur?

Why did Rhaegar leave a whole THREE Kingsguards with Lyanna?

That is something I couldn't understand for a long time, too. Not only the specific number, but the fact that clearly Rhaegar can't just do whatever he wants with the Kingsguard. Why was this allowed?

It doesn't make sense until you go back to the Aerys-Rhaegar allegiance divide above. The three are Gerold (most loyal Aerys appears to have) and Arthur and Oswell (most loyal Rhaegar appears to have).

Gerold came from King's Landing to take Rhaegar. Oswell and Arthur would have already been with him. Either-

1. Gerold was sent with the order to stay behind with Lyanna. Aerys already took hold of Elia and the kids to control Dorne (and Rhaegar) and would have her in the hands of his most obedient man, too. Rhaegar cannot let that happen, as he plans to turn against Aerys while he's away. If he can't send Gerold away, he makes the compromise of leaving two of his own. One only would have been uncertain odds, but if Gerold eventually acts up when things unravel, he's outnumbered. Arthur and Oswell can do what they have to do and they are in an isolated location and can lie about it later to protect their honor.

2. Gerold wasn't meant to stay behind. But since Rhaegar is decided to depose Aerys, removing him from Aerys is an opportunity. Aerys/Gerold can be lured with the illusion of having a hold on Lyanna. Rhaegar had to leave someone (trustworthy) with her regardless but compromises his own numbers for the same reasoning above, if it means removing a barrier from between him and Aerys. Aerys would be blindsided in allowing in from that same perspective: Rhaegar is made to leave crucial allies behind.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #rhaegar targaryen #aerys targaryen #elia martell #lyanna stark #jon snow

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ladystoneboobs · 5 months

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westerosi ruling ladies/acknowledged heiresses outside of dorne, listed by region:

the north

lady jonelle cerwyn, lady of castle cerwyn after the murder of her younger brother, lord cley cerwyn, by ramsay snow. (cley did not long outlive their father, lord medger cerwyn, who died of his wounds as a pow at harrenhal, after fighting in roose bolton's host when tywin lannister defeated them on the green fork.) we first hear of lady jonelle when robb stark calls his banners and lord cerwyn means to bring his old maid daughter with him, and the next we hear of her is when asha greyjoy gets her letter from ramsay, co-signed by a lady cerwyn and lady dustin, among the other northern lords in the bolton camp. cerwyn men-at-arms and the cerwyn maester are noted with roose at wf, and presumably if their lady did go south with her father, she must have returned north in roose bolton's party.

lady barbrey ryswell dustin, widow of the late lord willam dustin, apparently the last of his line since no surviving male dustins are ever mentioned. the widow of barrowton rules in his place for the remainder of her lifetime, and (unlike poor lady hornwood) rules with power uncontested, as barrowton's closest neighbors are the ryswells, also her closest kin, father and brothers. however, without any children from the late lord dustin, unclear what would happen after lady barbrey dies.

lady lyessa flint, head of the branch of house flint of widow's watch. lady flint's son, robin flint, led their forces in robb stark's army and died with the king at the red wedding, but was not the head of house. lady flint is listed such in the appendices, and was said to be pregnant in acok, meaning she likely had a living husband at the time, but he goes unnamed as only her consort.

lady alys karstark, heir to her eldest brother harrion karstark of karhold (whose location and current status is unclear after being captured by the lannisters a 2nd time), following the deaths of their brothers in the battle of the whispering wood, and the execution of their father by king robb as a murderer and traitor. at jon snow's instigation she has taken sigorn, magnar of thenn, as her consort.

lady wynafryd manderly, elder granddaughter of lord wyman manderly, by his son and heir ser wylis. should be the next heir to white harbor after her father, unless her parents should produce a son.

lady maege mormont of bear island, the only ruling lady listed here to also have a daughter as her heir. first this was dacey mormont, but after her murder at the red wedding, the new heir is second daughter alysanne aka aly the she-bear. but since aly told asha greyjoy she had a son as well as a daughter back home, that means there likely won't be a 3rd ruling lady in a row, as the mormonts may have a history of women warriors, but there's no sign they don't still practice male-preference primogeniture when there is a son to inherit. where the mormonts do step out of northern convention, however, is the ruling ladies fucking whoever they want without feeling the need for a husband and still naming their fatherless children mormonts, not snows, a practice rhaenyra targaryen would surely envy.

lady eddara tallhart, an heiress and then nominal ruler of torrhen's square, before the age of 10, after her elder brother benfred was killed by theon greyjoy's ironmen and then their father ser helman was killed when roose bolton sent him into an ambush at duskendale. listed as still a captive inside her family's seat, besieged by dagmer cleftjaw again, in the adwd appendix.

the riverlands

lady barbara bracken, eldest daughter of lord jonos bracken of stone hedge, who has multiple daughters by two of his three different wives, but no surviving sons.

lady amarei frey lannister, married to lancel lannister at castle darry as a granddaughter of a previous lord darry, then left to rule on her own after lancel abandoned her and repudiated their unconsummated marriage

lady eleanor mooton, eldest daughter of lord william mooton of maidenpool, listed as his heir in adwd appendix, at the time of her marriage to dickon tarly. (meaning presumably his sons mentioned in acok died during the war.)

lady carellen smallwood, (likely?) heir to acorn hall as the only known surviving child of lord and lady smallwood, whose only known son died years before.

lady liane vance, eldest daughter of lord karyl vance of house vance of wayfarer's rest, listed as his heir in the affc appendix

lady shella whent, last of the line of the whents of harrenhal, disposessed by tywin lannister, and allegedly dead by the time of affc, according to littlefinger. text is somewhat inconsistent on whether she or her husband inherited harrenhal, just as it's unknown what happened to all their children if they were the same whents hosting the tourney at harrenhal years before, nor even how they were related to minisa whent tully, the late lady of riverrun.

the vale

chella, daughter of cheyk, clan chief of the black ears

lady anya waynwood, lady of ironoaks, an older lady with multiple sons and grandsons still ruling in her own name, a formidable power in the vale, perhaps second only to the main branch of house royce as chief bannermen of house arryn

the westerlands

cersei lannister, lady of casterly rock as well as queen regent, following her father, lord tywin lannister, being murdered by her younger brother tyrion, an attainted traitor and fugitive, with her twin brother, jaime, unable to inherit as a knight of the kingsguard

lady alysanne lefford, lady of the golden tooth after lord leo lefford drowned in the battle of the fords against edmure tully's army. (whether the previous lord was her father, brother, or even uncle or cousin is unknown, all we know of her is her entry in the affc/adwd appendices after lord lefford's death in asos)

the reach

lady alysanne bulwer, the lady of blackcrown as the only known child of the late lord jon bulwer, frequently referred to as lady bulwer. (lady fatherslastname not being a style otherwise used with a lord's unmarried daughters, lady housesurname usually referring to a lord's wife using her husband's name). there is an inconsistency with taena merryweather telling cersei that there was talk of megga tyrell being betrothed to lady bulwer's brother (which a nondornish heiress cannot have and is not listed in any appendix), but this is either a mistake by grrm or misunderstanding by taena unless she's referring to an unknown brother of alysanne bulwer's mother, the last lady bulwer. (i'm taking multiple mentions of her as lady bulwer in sansa's pov over any gossip from taena.)

lady arwyn oakheart, lady of old oak, a widow with multiple grown sons who commanded her own forces in renly baratheon's army, even if she did not mean to fight on the field.

the crownlands

lady ermesand hayford, the last of the hayford line, a babe ruling in name only, married to the squire tyrek lannister before she was weaned, a husband now missing since his disappearence during the riot in kl on the day of princess myrcella's departure

the ladies tanda, falyse and lollys stokeworth, three would-be rulers of castle stokeworth dispossessed by the schemes of queen cersei and ser bronn of the blackwater. lady tanda ruled for years with falyse as her heir and younger daughter lollys as the only heir to the barren falyse, until such time as lollys was wed to bronn and lady tanda took a griveous fall from a horse. bronn started calling himself lord stokeworth when tanda and falyse were still alive, chasing off falyse after her husband attempted to kill him at cersei's behest. falyse died painfully in qyburn's dungeons, while tanda was left to die at castle stokeworth, making lollys even more a ruler in name only than baby lady hayford, as her husband is inside the castle with men loyal only to him, not to any stokeworth lady.

the stormlands

lady brienne of tarth, heir to lord selwyn tarth the evenstar as his only surviving child

lady mary mertyns, listed as lady of the mistwood in the adwd appendix

you'll notice the iron islands is the only (nondornish) region missing here. ofc they did have a possible heiress to pyke and all the isles but then asha greyjoy was soundly rejected as such at the kingsmoot after balon's death. the lack of other present-tl ruling ladies/acknowledged heirs afab may be down to this being the smallest region, aside from the crownlands. however, there are no historical ruling ladies in their section of the world book either, iirc.

AND there is another case of a possible heiress, again meaning asha, wrt harlaw. her uncle lord rodrik harlaw tried to dissaude her from the kingsmoot by offering to name her heir to his castle, while allowing a cousin to inherit all his other titles and power over the whole island of harlaw. but shouldn't asha have already been in line for all the harlaw lands and titles, above all the harlaw cousins? her aunt gwynesse's complaint of being the true heir as rodrik's elder sister may not work outside of dorne, but even on the nondornish mainland, a lord's sister (and therefore their children, ie asha) still come before a lord's uncles and cousins. isn't that the whole point of alys karstark's plight, that her older cousin had to marry her to try to claim her birthright? so the harlaw line of succession should go rodrik>gwynesse>alannys>asha before any cousins come into it.

that this would not be the case and that asha is only presented with the option of being lady of ten towers by doing homage to a cousin as her overlord for the whole island of harlaw suggests imo that the islands are particularly resistant to a woman as head of house, with all male kin following her in place of a patriarch. women may serve as castle stewards and the right sort may prove themselves as captains (not common, but not too rare either) but ruling on land, ruling over male kin, and fellow captains is a different matter. perhaps not too surprising from a people whose religon sees rape of foreign women as a key and holy part of their way of life. an ironwoman may not disapprove of her men doing so, but cannot fully participate without the cock to forcibly spread seed across the world. how can a captain who cannot fully perform manhood as the drowned god proscribes for his captains be rock king over any island, let alone all of them? in this light, balon's choice of asha as heir is even more radical, though likely it came not from a view of equality between the sexes but from a feeling that his own daughter was the very much singular special exception, more a son than greendlandized theon.

#vayrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #i just like listing things #i could have listed the dornish ladies and heiresses but the point is how many there even w/o equal primogeniture #the north and riverlands prob have the postdance phenom of more female rulers from all the men killed in war but theyre also #the most developed regions by far. so the other lists being shorter is partly down to not having as many family trees there #i think some people do give the ironborn more credit than they should for their uncommon but not unheard of warrior women captains #but i think aeron and vic are meant to represent the general view wrt how far a woman can rise.#and we see their views vindicated w how quickly balon's wishes for asha as heir as disregarded after his death #what is dead may never die #asha greyjoy #rodrik harlaw #balon greyjoy #(c)lsb #cleaning out my drafts. cleaning out my drafts. hi-ho the derry-o. cleaning out my drafts.

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zephyrrr101 · 6 months

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Take me away

Pairing: Robert Baratheon x Named Targ OC

TW: Abusive words, Harrasment, Talk of murder, Robert Baratheon being an angry chihuahua, all the ASOIAF world warning.

Part Two

Cries echoed in the silent halls of Red Keep. Ned Stark frowned at the new sound that had tore through the almost deafening quietness. He turned to look at his companions in the throne room.

His friend, now King Robert Baratheon sat at the Iron Throne.

The same throne that sat many Targaryen kings on it. The same Targaryens that the now King had swore upon killing. Each and everyone.

He did not agree with his friend on this.

Rhaegar Targaryen had taken his sister.

Aeyrs Targaryen had killed his father and brother.

He had felt the fire of vengeance run through him until they were alive but it was quelled the moment he met his dying sister.

And then he had felt disappointed and regretful.

Thousand people lost. Innocents put to sword.

The only good thing he thought came out of it was the end of the Mad King, albeit he didn't like the way he was killed by the Lannister White Knight, but still was a relief.

Another cry shook him out of his thoughts, now much louder, and he then turned to Jon Arryn, his mentor and now the Hand of the King. "What is this? Who is it?"

Jon Arryn did not answer. Even he wasn't sure what was happening. It was clear from the confused look on his face.

His eyes then found that of the new Commander of Kingsguard, Ser Barristan. He looked terrified at the best. He could not think of what could leave the man such as him so struck with fear.

The door of the Throne Room opened.

Now he understood Ser Barristan's horror.

Stannis Baratheon, King Robert's younger brother, marched in. His arms wrapped around silver tresses, he much more of dragged the woman he had come to know as Princess Alyssanne, cries leaving her mouth along with words of pleads to let her go.

What in the name of Gods' was happening?

Stannis came closer to the steps of the throne and pushed the silver haired princess to the floor, left of mercy of all the men in the room.

"What is the meaning of this?" Ned asked and he quickly moved over to the princess.

Her hair dishevelled, her dress dirty and almost seemed to falling off her shoulders. He did the quick work of pulling his cloak off him and covered the princess. Her eyes raised from the ground to meet his. Purple eyes filled with tears and her cheek wet and red.

"The boy escaped with the new born girl," Stannis started, "the Queen was dead. We only got in time to capture her. Dragonstone is ours."

"And you this needed you to drag a woman in such state?" Ned glared Stannis. He had known him almost as long as he knew Robert. He was like his own brother too. But this man he did not recognise.

Stannis opened his mouth, anger surging in his blood. But before any words could leave him, Robert yelled at the top of lungs. "What do you mean they escaped?! What else did I sent you there for!"

Stannis looked at his brother in shock. How could he even say such thing. "It was not in my hand! Willem Darry looked as if he had it already planned. He quicked the younger ones out. It was fortunate we could capture her!"

"You could have gotten there faster! I sent you there to killed them all! Not to bring the bitch back!" He glared at his brother for a moment before his anger took it's turn to Alyssanne. "Where did they go? Where did those runts run off to!"

Alyssanne flinched seeing him stand. Robert was always a tall man with broad shoulders. It intimidated anyone who didn't know him dearly. And not know him, the princess did. She whispered out some words in terror, her hold on the grey cloak of Stark was deathly. And Robert roared his question again, making her crawl a little back.

"I don't know! Please! Robert, we are kin!" She cried out, her voice broken from screaming some moments before.

"Kin? Kin! You are no kin of mine!" Robert sneered, "I'll find each and every one of your filthy white haired bastard and kill them just like I killed that son of whore of your brother! Just like I'll kill you!"

"No! Please! Robert!" Ned had never quite seen any woman in such a distress. He didn't even know what he was to do. "They are but children! Please just... Let them be. Let me go. I will find them and make sure we never return to Westros. I swear it! Please!"

"Let you go!" Robert looked disgusted at the thought, he started treading down the stairs, "You want me to—"

Ned stepped in Robert's way just when he was about a few steps away from Alyssanne and he caught Ser Barristan beside him. The princess had started fo move behind, draging herself back, trying to make distance between the enraged man.

"You grace, despite your anger she is your kin. An honourable man and king does not harm their kin or a woman," Ser Barristan said, trying to stop the enraged man to get his hands on the princess.

"Robert, she is a woman, a lady," Ned glared at his friend and Robert for a moment calmed.

For a moment they were not in the Throne Room of Red Keep but in Vale, fighting boys who tried to pick a fight with them.

Jon Arryn mean while had too moved. He approached the princess as one would a frighted and injured predator, who was actually contemplating the last moments of their life. He helped the princess get up, he eyes moving warily around, it didn't take anyone to be too wise to see the distance she tried to keep from Stannis and his men.

"Let us talk about this after tempers have cooled." Jon said. And he could say everyone agreed, even the Baratheon's, reluctantly, but they did.

Alyssanne had not slept for even a second in the following night. And it was not an understatement.

She had been far too worried about what was happening. From what she could tell, there was a storm forming across the Blackwater Bay which was streched all over the Narrow sea she could see from her room.

Yes, her room.

Jon Arryn had done her the courtesy of letting her be in her room. Something about finding calmness in familiarity.

She could bet whatever she had that she would never find calmness ever again.

She could not get her mind off anything. Her worry for her little brother and sister who had sailed just a day before. A storm on their flight would not do them good, specially the baby Daenerys, what her mother had named the babe with her dying breath.

Alyssanne had promised her mother to protect Viserys and Daenerys. How was she supposed to keep them safe, protect them when she was locked in the highest floor of the Maegor's Holdfast. Curse her father for giving her this room. What the hell was that mad man thinking! What was Rhaegar thinking? What was anyone thinking?

Another reason for sleep fleeing her was fear for her own life. She trusted Ser Barristan posted outside her room. The man had been their when she was born and had seen her grow up. Seven Hells, he was the one who had sent for her mother when she had her first moon blood. But even after all that, she could not sleep. Ser Barristan may have been another father figure in her life after Rhaegar, he was still a man who followed his King's command. And unfortunately, her cousin who was hell bent on having all of her family annihilated, including herself. Her father's Kingsguard had drawn the sword through his chest. Her father may be been the most horrible man to breath but she would not trust anyone now. Specially now.

"Princess," She flinched at the slight graze at her hand shuffling away on the opposite side on her bed. Alyssanne blinked, her wide eyes found a terrified woman standing across her.

"Princess... I—we are here to bathe you," The maid said. Yes, a maid, it was only a maid, Alyssanne sighed and looked around the room, there were three more women, all of them older than her, two bringing hot water in one putting a dress on the dressing screen and the last one was the one who had scared her.

"Yes, yes," she nodded and got off the bed hesitantly. None of the women seemed familiar. She was sure they didn't work here.

The maid who had scared her made a quick work of taking off her dress, if there was much left of it. There had not much left of her clothes in her room when she had tried to look in her dressers.

She wasn't even sure what happened in King's Landing. All her mother had told her was that her father, good sister, niece and nephew were dead and had then crowned Viserys King in Dragonstone. Now she was starting to wonder if asking for details may have been a good idea.

Why do good ideas never come at the right time?

Alyssanne couldn't help but let out a sigh of relief as she put her leg in the hot water. She could thank whoever had to the maids to have the water almost boiling hot. Her skin tingled as warmth started to seep in her body. It almost felt like she was back in time when nothing was wrong. That her mother would be bringing Viserys in her room to spend time with, Elia following her with little Rhaenys and Aegon.

Alyssanne sighed, biting her lip as she let the maids wash her. She had to control herself. Her eyes cautiously moved around her. Even when the maids were just doing their jobs. She couldn't let her guard down.

She sent a prayer to whatever Gods would listen her. Please keep my little brother and sister safe. She whispered. Keep them out of Robert's reach, please.

#asoiaf #game of thrones #robert baratheon #house targaryen #Targaryen #targ reader #got fanfiction #got x reader #got x oc #ned stark #jon arryn #house baratheon #stannis baratheon

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nightswatchdisbandmentera · 1 year

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Ned's Tower of Joy dream is an interesting case study on how GRRM employs the three part revelation strategy. Because Ned's questioning of the kings guard and their subsequent answers basically falls into:

Q: Why are the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? They could be anywhere else but they're here? Why??

A: They are there to fulfill their duty to the king.

See, Ned asks them three questions that get to the heart of revealing why the kingsguard are present where Lyanna (and Jon, per RLJ) are. Because if the kingsguard's primary duty is to protect the king, and if each set of question and answer reaffirms that the KG at the tower were doing their duty, then we can discern that Rhaegar's son is the king at that moment in time. Each question and answer reveals more information than the last, which falls into the three part strategy as observed by GRRM's editor, Anne Groell.

[...] I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.

How this strategy plays into the ToJ dream is that GRRM starts with

planting a little seed of doubt by questioning the kingsguard's whereabouts

then he follows up with bringing to attention the fact that they have not yet sworn fealty to the new king

then finally spelling it out that their presence here rather than elsewhere signifies that the king is close at hand - in the very tower where this confrontation is taking place

For the astute observer who has figured out that R+L=J, this is a very important piece of information regarding Jon's status at the time. Because he has so far been introduced to us as Ned Stark's bastard. But now, this sequence of information plays into the larger theme of Jon being presented as a hidden king.

So let's take a more detailed look at how this plays out in the dream once Ned confronts the ghosts of the kingsguard.

P.S: Ok, I lied. Ned actually asks them four questions. But four is not so nice a number as three so whatever. The point remains.

Q1: Three other kingsguard were fighting with the crown prince at the Trident. Yet these three remained. Why?

A1: Their duty was not to go to the Trident but to remain at the ToJ

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This first set means to establish a timeline. We know that Rhaegar was last at the tower (well, that is before he went to Kings Landing and then to the Trident). Rhaegar even took three other kingsguard to battle with him: Jonothor Darry, Barristan Selmy, and Lewyn Martell.

These three kings guard at the ToJ should have gone with Rhaegar because after all, it's their duty to fight for the king and his cause. But they were left at the TOJ. And we can assume that this was per Rhaegar's orders as GRRM himself confirms that if Rhaegar told them to stay at the tower, then they would've had little power to disobey him.

But Rhaegar died at the Trident. So why did they choose to remain? And even though this conversation is happening within a feverish dream (thus opening up the possibility that these words were not the actual ones that were exchanged in real history), it still seems that by the time Ned got to the tower the kingsguard already knew of Rhaegar's demise.

So why did they remain?

Q2: Jaime Lannister, a member of the kingsguard, was in King's Landing slaying their king. Why were these three not there to avenge Aerys? Isn't their primary duty to protect the king?

A2: Aerys is dead, but the kingsguard still has to do their duty which is to remain at the tower.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Once again, the language used here suggests that they knew of their king's demise. They did not go with Rhaegar to the Trident, and then Rhaegar died. Who knows how fast information travels, but these three still chose to remain at the tower despite his death. Afterwards, they did not make an effort to find Aerys, nor did they make an effort to go and avenge him once he was dead. They swore an oath to remain at the tower, and that is exactly what they did.

But with Rhaegar dead and with Aerys dead, they're now running out of excuses to remain at the tower. Though they may be fiercely loyal to the vows they swore to their prince, they also have a primary duty to obey their king and they could've performed that elsewhere. Especially now that there's a new king in town...

Q3: Ok, their king is dead and the entire realm now swears fealty to a new king. All the knights, honorable and dishonorable, have bent the knee. But what about them? Why are they here?

A3: They have a duty to remain at the tower. A duty they fulfill as members of the kingsguard, and one that cannot be transferred easily.

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

What's interesting about this is that they seemingly reject Robert as their king. It's a reaffirmation of their first answer to Ned's first question. "Woe to the Usurper if we had been [at the Trident]”. So Robert is not their king. But the primary duty of the kingsguard is to serve the king. Their behavior so far gives the impression that they are fulfilling it. But it's rather strange, isn't it. Who are they fulfilling their duty to if not Robert?

And Ned knows this. If they reject Robert as their king, who else is there to support? Rhaegar is long dead. Aerys was slain by their own sworn brother. And Rhaegar's son and heir met his end at the hand of Gregor Clegane. Their duty is sworn to the Targaryen line, but it has been snuffed out. So why are they here?

But Ned asks a final question that is, in a way, a nail in the coffin. It answers the question: they serve the king but which one?

Q4: Fine! Robert is not their king. And Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon are dead. Well...there is Viserys, who would have been Aerys' heir after Rhaegar. He's not dead. So why are they not with him?

A4: They do not go to Viserys because their duty as kingsguard(!) is not with him.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

This is the final revelation and it answers the key question in all of this. The kingsguard performed their duty by guarding their king at the Tower of Joy. They are not serving Aerys by remaining there. And they are also not doing Viserys, who is currently at Dragonstone, any favors. Whatever vow they swore as kingsguard relates to the ToJ. And we know (per RLJ) that the two people at the tower are Lyanna Stark and Jon Snow, Rhaegar's last surviving son and heir.

We're given two key pieces of information with the last two sets of question and answer in regards to the kingsguards performing their duty by guarding Jon at the tower. First when Arthur Dayne says that, "our knees do not bend easily". Of course, they do not bend for Robert the usurper as we already know...

...But, the start of the dream features a very important detail.

Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.

Ser Oswell has already bent the knee. And he means to fight for the king he has sworn a vow to since he is preparing his sword.

Then we have Ser Gerold 'pointing out' (thus bringing attention to) the fact that though Prince Viserys and Queen Rhaella are still alive and under the protection of a good knight, they are not under the protection of kingsguard. The kings guard does not flee - they stand their ground and fight for their king. And this is again asserted by Ser Gerold who reminds Ned that “we swore a vow.”

So we have a three four part revelation that the last stand at the ToJ involved protecting little Jon who, at that time, was recognized as king by the three knights.

This doesn't end here. Jaime's ASOS dream also has him confront ghosts of the pasts and the question of oaths comes up, as it did in Ned's dream. The two dreams intersect when the topic of the kingsguard's duty comes up. And we see that as it was in Ned's dream, the three knights at the ToJ were fulfilling their primary oaths to protect (and die) for their king.

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” [Brienne] said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.” “We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly. [...] “He was your king,” said Darry. “You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent. “And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn. [...] “I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king …” “Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur. “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn. “The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

Once again, we have the affirmation that the kingsguard swear vows to protect their king even if it leads to their deaths. And as we know, all these kingsguard died during Robert's Rebellion. Three died at the Trident with Rhaegar, fighting for their king's cause. So why are the other three who were at the ToJ lumped with them?

Of course, this is Jaime's conscious. And his relationship with Dayne, Hightower, and Whent is very different from Ned's. But the point remains that as the narrative suggests, they too died for their king. They fulfilled their oaths to completion. But the king they died for was not Aerys or Aegon or Viserys. Their king was a tiny babe - Jon Snow.

Though this feverish dream is part of a much larger reveal (that is R+L=J), Ned’s conversation with the three kingsguard plays into one of the key motifs in Jon Snow’s arc - that is his identity as the king. Not a king. But THE king.

What makes the three part revelation so interesting in this passage is that not everyone has figured R+L=J out. But to the astute observer, this key passage is just another piece of important evidence that plays into the hidden prince trope that RLJ falls under. And not only that, it yet another instance of Jon being recognized as the true king by the narrative.

#jon snow #eddard stark #tower of joy #r plus l equals j #gerold hightower #arthur dayne #oswell whent #the kingsguard #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls

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inlovewithquotes · 1 year

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The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some other queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

-A Feast For Crows

#quotes #book quotes #literature #books & libraries #life quotes #george rr martin #asoiaf quotes #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #a feast for crows #jaime lannister #aerys targaryen #rhaella targaryen #jon darry

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throwawayasoiafaccount · 12 days

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i am reminded once again that people are so weird about rhaegar.

it’s interesting but nauseating to see the shift about him on the anti-rhaegar side of the fandom as it’s clear that people are still wildly and crazily deep in their fanon versions of him, but have decided he’s somewhat useful to them as the fandom becomes less accepting of the ‘targaryens are bad and all mad’ narrative that was floating around for years, so some of the antis have slightly changed their tunes.

i should clarify that the shift does seem subtle right now, so maybe it’s not going to affect the way the antis discuss rhaegar that much, but i find it interesting and a bit annoying so im gonna discuss it.

the shift is basically starting from ‘rhaegar was a moron and killed his family by fucking his whore so he deserved death’ and seems to be heading to ‘rhaegar was secretly really cunning and cruel and actually loved elia but she was iffy/neutral of him and he only got with lyanna to have a baby and left her to die cause he was always gonna go back to elia.’

both of these are crazy interpretations imo, but the second one is even worse than the first. the first interpretation is at least a tad bit understandable, but the second is completely based on fanon land nonsense.

because… how is rhaegar seen as cunningly cruel when he’s only been paralleled with dany and jon, two incredibly kind characters? one of the first times dany is directly paralleled to rhaegar is when dany was protecting others! while we do learn a lot about rhaegar through these parallels, there’s also an on page interaction that completely contradicts the ‘rhaegar is cruel and callous’ interpretation. it starts when jamie is recalling rhaegar’s departure to the trident, he remembers when jon darry snapped at him, telling him to obey and stay with aerys; then rhaegar takes the time to console a teenage jamie and ease his worries before he leaves. we have all this and yet people interpret this character as cunningly cruel and willing to use others for his own ends?

like bsffr… this is a character who prefers writing songs and singing them instead of violence and the song of swords. that says a lot about rhaegar, and it’s all good things.

speaking of good things said about rhaegar: barristan as whitebeard, when he was still sussing out dany, calls rhaegar able, determined, deliberate, dutiful, and single-minded. these are all positive descriptions. barristan also later says that there’s a lot of good to be said about rhaegar, more than any of dany’s other relatives. this is not the description of someone hiding a nasty personality behind a perfect facade, it’s a deliberate set up preparing us readers for the big rhaelya reveal and to contradict roberts anti rhaegar propaganda.

i also want to mention the other side of rhaegar. he was described as melancholy and was said to have sad eyes, and according to cersei he looked wounded. it seems like he suffered from depression. and based on the parallels between aerys and viserys, i think it’s safe to assume that aerys was likely abusive to rhaegar like viserys was to dany. what’s written in a world of ice and fire supports my case and shows that things were always very very tense between rhaegar and aerys. things were so tense in fact that aerys even brought varys in as spymaster partly because he mistrusted rhaegar. that is a very terrible environment for someone to grow up in, and yet rhaegar still pulled through so much so that characters still sing his praises years after his death. that’s impressive and shows how good of an impression he left on so many characters.

now, i also want to discuss the rhaegar x elia ship as it’s getting more popular as the tides keep shifting. one quote that these shippers use to support their ship is the “rhaegar was fond of elia” remark made by barristan, but the context of that conversation is specifically left out by these shippers. basically the conversation began when dany is telling barristan that she’ll do her duty and marry hizdahr, so she asks barristan if rhaegar wed for duty or love. barristan hesitates and tells her that rhaegar was fond of elia but says nothing about love. context is key here. and while it’s not surprising that these shippers need to strip away the context as they have to go up against rhaelya, which has a lot of textual support, it is deceitful and proves that their case is weak in compassion to the build up of rhaelya.

anyways… yeah… this shifting tide is weird af and seems like a huge backwards dive into fanon land, and while i can’t control anyone i think i’ve done my best to stay true to canon by mentioning what we know about rhaegar and trying to keep my interpretations grounded.

tbh… i don’t even like this character that much, but i think his impact on the fandom is so cool. cause it’s like… here is rhaegar, a sad boy, and yet so many people treat him like he’s satan incarnate responsible for everything bad. it’s like so wild and so far from what little we know of him. so, basically, because of this fandom discourse, i became interested in this character and am now one of his defenders. yeahhhhh….

also, because so many people liked to basically shit on rhaegar for ‘doing nothing’ and ‘just letting war break out’ i found it kinda fun to theorize about what he may have actually been doing at the time of the rebellion. as of now, i’m pretty set in my belief that he specifically went to dorne to conspire with house martell and potential allies in order to overthrow aerys. my theory is based on what we know of his personality, and i think his last words to jamie clearly hint that he had some sort of plan in place; and since he was last in dorne, it’s only logical to conclude that there was something going on.

that’s all

#rhaegar targaryen #anti elia stans #anti rhaegar x elia #rhaelya #pro rhaelya #daenerys targaryen #asoiaf fandom critical #rhaelya deniers are gonna be the ppl super disappointed by the next books #how can you think that the tower of joy… named by a depressed man… means something nasty instead of something beautiful?#y’all just hate depressed ppl admit itttt #i’m kidding #tbh i don’t care if rhaegar antis post in his main tags but stay off my blog i don’t want to deal with any of u #barristan selmy #he’s such a silly guy so down in his what if thoughts #pull yourself together whitebeard you’ve gotta hold down the fort until dany gets back #it’s late so i’m sry for any grammar errorsssssss #do i dare tag the main tag?#noooot today #i hate fanon land #what if y’all just base ur interpretations off of the text instead of off of what you want rhaegar to have been?#like what if we all just do that………#ok i’m done ☑️#that emoji is so funny

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