#jonnel x sansa

[blissfulphilospher]

“I am not giving up on you Sansa. I will never do.”

She jerked her head towards him, her lips were quivering “Liar. You! You… stood like an unhatched dragon egg! You said nothing to grandfather and now are stealing my inheritance. Go back Jonnel, be the Lord, rule the North. You will be happy that way.”

Jon scowled and jumped from his horse “A dragon egg? And what should I have said?!” he shouted.

“That Winterfell belongs to Sansa! And why would you? You probably tried to kill me!” She accused once again.

Jon clenched his fist and walked into the river as far as he can “It wasn’t me, I didn’t tried to kill you, whatever pretty stories you have in your head Sansa, I love you! I do and I will. Even when I am rotting in the crypts, it will be you, forever in my heart.” He declared half way into the cold water.

[babybells123]

There is something so beautifully anvilicious about these quotes;

" I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise." (AFFC, Alayne II)

"The dream was sweet . . . but Winterfell would never be his to show. It belonged to his brother, the King in the North. He was a Snow, not a Stark. Bastard, oathbreaker, and turncloak . . ." (ASOS, Jon V)

Both Jon and Sansa are yearning for Winterfell and the feelings/memories/family associated -but both are intrinsically restricting themselves based off of their bastard status. The notion of Sansa being the only Stark (and character) to transition from a high-born noble lady to a baseborn bastard cannot be overlooked. (And then of course, the notion of Jon being the only Stark (and character) to transition from baseborn bastard to lord commander, cannot be overlooked.) Jon has risen to the top whilst Sansa has lowered to the bottom.

She (GRRM) makes the comparison to Jon herself, meaning that GRRM makes the comparison himself. this isn't something interpreted by fans - it is right there, explicitly within the text.

Sansa's desire to reunite with Jon is "sweet," it'd be almost like a dream come true. Jon's "dream was sweet" as well. But "Winterfell could never be his" and seeing her brother once again "of course, could never be" (possible).

And then later on in the text, Jon is offered the chance to become Jon Stark, and have Winterfell in name. Thus his decidedly unsubtle desire (that he dismisses as an entirely impossible dream) is fulfilled by Stannis' offer, even though he eventually rejects it in truth "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

There is also the quote that precedes Jon's "sweet dream," where he fantasises about a beautiful little romance with Ygritte; showing her a flower from the glass gardens, feasting her in the great hall, bathing in the hot pools, and loving beneath the heart tree. This dream is directly connected to Winterfell and is obviously sexually + romantically charged.

So whilst Jon's desire is partially fulfilled (even if he doesn't accept it) can we possibly assume that Sansa's simultaneously unsubtle "that could never be" may also be fulfilled? Since GRRM seems to really be beating us over the head with how 'that could never happen' from Sansa's internal monologue "no one will ever marry me for love" is reiterated multiple times (just you wait sweet one!) and Sansa desiring to reunite with her brother who she has modelled her bastardry after, who is supposedly the only brother left to her, is immediately dismissed by Sansa because she's accepted the fact that she'll never be with her family again, (and that she shall never encounter true love).

The connections only keep connecting!

So to summarise:

Jon & Sansa both have "sweet" dreams/desires that connect to Winterfell/family.

Jon's dream is sexually/romantically charged, involves a red-headed girl, and establishes Jon's suppressed desires as actually romantic.

Both Jon and Sansa are bastards in these contexts.

Both Jon and Sansa woefully dismiss these dreams/desires as impossible as "that could never be" and "it could never be his to show."

Jon's desire however is later offered on a silver platter by Stannis Baratheon, to which he mulls over and states that he "has always wanted it" (to be his). Though he later refuses Stannis' offer on the basis that "Winterfell belongs to Sansa" - twice over he says this.

Jon 'giving' Winterfell to Sansa is in direct contrast to Robb (Sansa's image of an honourably idealistic older brother) flat out rejecting Sansa's claim on the basis of her marriage to Tyrion.

Jon thus establishes himself as the only character who respects and protects Sansa's claim. Who does not abuse or exploit it. (Even though he was given the opportunity for it and it's been his innermost desire since childhood.)

In a way, this further conveys Jon as Sansa's unspoken, subconscious hero who is protecting her interests and instilling all those heroic ideals (such as the Janos Slynt situation) - though she does not realise it and has accepted that "there are no heroes" at all. But Jon is the true hero, hiding in plain sight.

So, whilst Sansa believes there are no heroes, Jon fulfils those ideals. Whilst Sansa believes no one will marry her for love, Jon exists as the embodiment of all the chivalric, romantic ideals that she's so desperately wanted.

Can we now assume that Sansa believing that she will essentially never see Jon again as entirely anvilicious as she will in fact see Jon again?

GEORGE I'M IN YOUR WALLS.

[horizon-verizon]

List of Non-Targ Westerosi In*cest Marriages

Tywin Lannister x Joanna Lannister (1st cousins)

-- Issue: Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion

Rickard Stark x Lyarra Stark (1st cousins)

-- Issue: Brandon, Eddard "Ned", Lyanna, Benjen

Cregan Stark x Lynara Stark (just says "distant cousins")

-- Issue: Jonnel, Edric, Lyanna, Barthogan, Brandon

Serena Stark x Edric Stark (uncle-niece)

-- Issue: Cregard, Torrhen, Arrana, Aregelle

Sansa Stark x Jonnel Stark (uncle-niece)

-- Issue: NONE

Paxter Redwyne x Mina Tyrell (1st cousins)

-- Issue: Horas, Hobber, Desmera

Samantha Tarly x Lyonel Hightower (previously step mother-stepson)

-- Issue: 6 unknown children, all illegitimately born before their marriage

POSSIBLE CLOSE RELATIONS (exact degrees unknown)

Jon Arryn x Rowena Arryn

-- Issue: NONE

Shella Whent x Walter Whent

-- Issue: 4 unknown sons & 1 unknown daughter

Benfrey Frey x Jyanna Frey

-- Issue: Della & Osmund

Alys Frey x Jared Frey

-- Issue: Tytos & Kyra

[esther-dot]

Do you have any suggestions/meta recommendations for introducing someone to jonsa? My sister was the one one who got me into asoiaf a decade+ ago & while my journey has led me to jonsa, the idea of a jon + sansa romance was completely foreign to her when I finally brought it up after the end of season 8. She’s an absolute blank slate & I want to give her everything but I have no idea where to start!! I bow to your wisdom 🙏🏼

Our minds work in such unique ways, it’s hard to say what would be the most compelling bit of evidence for a specific person? We recently had a fandom poll and everyone is pretty enamored with Jon beheading Slynt, which happens to be my favorite bit of evidence because it involves minimal interpretation, no reading of the author’s mind, a simple wish for a hero and Jon fulfilling the wish. It’s a unique connection between Jon and Sansa.

What makes it feel romantic is that we then have Sansa say “no one will ever marry me for love” and if the pattern holds of her despairing only for Martin to be showing the audience that she needn’t despair (no heroes -> Jon decapitates Slynt, no true knights -> Brienne exists, no one will marry her for love -> ???), she will marry someone who isn’t after her claim, but how will the reader know that person wants her, not her claim? Conveniently, Jon has been offered and already rejected Winterfell. Not just rejected it, said, Winterfell belongs to Sansa. Again, a unique connection.

I find that indicative of intent, one method Martin uses to make Jonsa feel embedded in their personal journeys while they’re so far apart. This will make the romance feel like it’s always been written into their story, not a last-minute development. But, I know that isn’t the line of thought that convinced others, so I will share a few favorite metas.

Find Sansa’s Husband

This one by Istumpy is a great angle to approach bringing someone into the fold. (That sounds a little culty…😅) Some may say Sansa is too young for a husband (we all think that tbh), but if you take seriously the issue of carrying on the Stark line, it is a great breakdown of contenders for her husband, and very accessible to someone who isn’t already invested in the idea.

I’ll include Jon and Waymar parallels because they too seem deliberate. Not sure why Sansa had a crush on this guy who happens to foreshadow Jon’s death unless there’s a connection being made there?

Jonnel x Sansa (1, 2) For some, this is the clincher. If your sister buys into the idea of precanon/history foreshadowing events in the series, this might do it.

Compatible dreams. Short, to the point, matchy matchy. Love. starkmaiden is also responsible for the work of art that is The Jonsa Compendium (not the first thing for a new fan to read, but a wonderful resource once you’re initiated).

Now the next one is one of the first metas I ever read (I was never involved in fandom before Jonsa), and I still adore it years and thousands and thousands of words of absorbed meta later. We didn’t get the predicted endpoint; however, this is where Jonsa began for many people because the OP predicted the Jon and Sansa reunion way before it happened on the show. The ability to predict something accurately makes me take that person seriously, and the OP called stuff very, very early. They even mentioned the NedCat of it all and then the show had Jon/Sansa cosplay them and recreate one of their scenes! Even though the conclusion isn’t what will happen, the argument for Jonsa as a romantic pairing is wonderful. It makes a great, overall case for them, and for many, A Time for Wolves is The Jonsa Meta.

Drifting-snowflakes made a series of posts that are very convincing. They kinda, look at what the show did and point out how that did and did not align with what we might reasonably expect in the books. If your sister accepts some of the broad ideas of the GoT ending, these are compelling arguments for what to expect in Martin’s. A Dream for Spring and Why Jon and Sansa will get married (1, 2)

If your sister is a lit nerd, cappymightwrite is the blogger she’d be drawn to. Here’s a post talking about the incest motif in the romantic movement and several posts about the Jon/Byron connection (1, 2, 3). That being pertinent to Jonsa for…reasons. 😬

A lot of us are fans of The Lord of the Rings and we all know Martin is a huge fan, so maybe your sister would enjoy the parallels between Aragorn/Arwen and Jonsa? I think the idea that Martin is writing his own, darker, more complicated version of that romance compelling.

Or, maybe a specific angle is too limited? Some people work best with a more comprehensive presentation. Here are posts that talk about several things all at once:

Jon Snow: The Silent Unknown and Unthought Answer to Sansa's Hopes

Book foreshadowing

Jonsa Endgame foreshadowing

Book hints in chronological order

Also, over the years I’ve noticed many, many Jonsas come to it via fic, so if she’s into GoT-verse fic, I’d rec thimbleful’s alternate s8 (that was written well before s8) because it’s been called out by non shippers as a great way to wrap up everything we’d been given in the previous seasons. Once Jonsa is something you enjoy, it’s a lot more likely you’ll read theories with an open mind.

Your closer made me laugh, and I’m sorry I don’t have one “this is the answer!!!” recommendation, but I hope one of those seems like something your sister would enjoy!

[butterflies-dragons]

what r the “canon” couples that are like jonsa or foreshadow jonsa ex: like jace and sara

Bael x Rose of Winterfell

Florian x Jonquil

Jaehaerys x Alysanne

Jacaerys x Sara

Aemon x Naerys

Dunk x Tanselle

Duncan x Jenny

Jonnel x Sansa

Ricard x Lyarra

Tywin x Joanna

Rhaegar x Lyanna

Ned x Cat

Mance x Dalla

Daemon Sand x Arianne Martell

Young Griff/Aegon son of Elia x Arianne Martell

And we can even count Jaime and Cersei as foils

Honorable mention:

Jaime x Brienne

[jonsameta]

GRRM has left Jonsa hints throughout his histories and family trees. Couples with male Jon like names and female Sansa/Alayne like names. Jace/Sara, Jaehaerys/Alysanne, Jonnel/Sansa all of which also share different story mirror elements to Jon & Sansa. Out of everything, this is some of the most convincing Jonsa evidence for me as it's outside GRMM's main narrative. It's purposeful. Like a reincarnation love story. What are your thoughts on these clues? Is there 1 good meta out there on these?

Hi there!

I don’t know about any metas that combine all these parallels... But I try to tell you about what I know about the parallels each.

Even before Fire and Blood came out there was a long post by @jonsansasource about the Sansa/Alysanne parallels (x) and one by @mediiciis with additions by @lostlittlesatellites (x) and I posted about what we can take from the Fire and Blood book (x) and (x)

As for Jonnel/Sansa the most comprehensive post is by @occupyvenus and all the additions (x).This is particularly interesting because GRRM went to quite some lengths to include Jonnel and Sansa into the family tree!

For Jace/Jacaerys/ and Sara there is this post by @rose-of-red-lake

Apart from the couples in the histories there are also the legendary couples like Aemon and Naerys, Florian and Jonquil, Pate the pig boy and his love, the bear and the maiden fair.....

So many things that point towards Jonsa and yet we are the delusional part of the fandom... (as I was just informed yet again this week by some Anti) Sigh!

Thanks for the ask!

~Fedon

[sunbeamsandmoonrays]

@jonsa-week​ Day 1: Past, Present, Future

“We’re dreaming of being married to each other, Sansa.”

“We can’t control what we did in a past life, Jon.”

***

Jon and Sansa confide in each other when they begin to have dreams of their past lives. As their shared experience brings them closer, their burgeoning feelings for each other threatens to tear them apart. 

Read chapter 1 on ao3 here.

[istumpysk]

I noticed that the Family Tree foreshadowing is never discussed in the ASOIAF fandom to debunk our deluded speculations.

Because it’s impregnable. There is no debunking. Their only course of action is to ignore it, and pretend it doesn’t exist. What is the counter argument to Jonnel and Sansa Stark? How do you explain it away? Impossible.

Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, married his blood relative, Sansa Stark.

Like, my god.

For the people that ship Sansa or Jon with another character, that piece of information has got to be shattering. It’s brutal. No mental gymnastics can overcome it. If I was dropped on my head as a child, eventually grew up to become a Sansan, and I saw that sitting in the Stark lineage, I’d have to move on with my life.

I would say I’ve read a good amount of the strongest theories, foreshadowing, parallels and clues that other fandoms like to champion their ships with, and I can say without bias (I mean not really, but I know I’m right), they don’t have anything even remotely as significant or glaring as Jonnel and Sansa Stark.

I started my fandom days on Reddit, knew a lot of the more well known Jonsa arguments (Ashford, the outline, drifting snowflakes), thought it was an intriguing idea, but mostly stayed impartial. It wasn’t until I made my way to tumblr long after the show ended, and I read everything in its totality, that I realized the inevitability of Jon and Sansa.  

But what I’ll never forget is when I finally got to @occupyvenus‘s Jonnel and Sansa Stark post. I was DUMBFOUNDED. I could not for the life of me understand why this wasn’t the primary evidence used to support the theory. Why had I never heard of this? Why was this not in the Alt Shift X Jonsa video? Why do BNFs and the fandom not talk about this? Why is this not treated with the same legitimacy as the Ashford theory?

This is the Ashford theory on steroids.

Once upon a time, in the universe of A Song of Ice and Fire, there was a girl named Sansa Stark. She had a suitor. His name was Jonnel Stark. They were related. They married.

WHAT.

And don’t get me wrong, I bloody love the Ashford theory. It’s a brilliant piece of foreshadowing, and the parallels between Jon Snow and Valarr Targaryen are incredible (omg please read The Black Prince With The White Guardian by @butterflies-dragons).

But the thing with Jonnel and Sansa is that nobody can trot out their bullshit to dismiss it. There’s no alternative way to interpret it. Nobody can claim it’s an oopsie coincidence. There’s no playing ignorant and pretending Jonnel Stark is meant to represent Aegon VI Targaryen. Nobody is bending themselves into a pretzel trying to parallel the Hound with Duncan the Tall. Jonnel and Sansa are invincible.

There’s no way around the fact that a Jon and Sansa got married in canon. That exists. In the Stark lineage. George did that.

And that’s when I realized why I had never really heard about it before. It’s a nightmare for them, so best to not acknowledge it.

Everything about it is bad...

The lengths George went to in making sure it was abundantly clear that Jonnel Stark is a direct representation of Jon Snow. Lynara Stark? One-Eye? Made heir to Winterfell after the death of his older brother? JONnel? Hilarious. It’s so over the top, they don’t even try to posture like this could somehow not be a reference to Jon.

The timing of its release? 2014. This didn’t come out in the 90s. We’re dealing with newer material here, succeeding even the last book in the series, making this all quite relevant. Equally as bad, it predates Jon and Sansa reuniting on the show. They don’t get to claim it’s silly George giving a wink and smile to a major shipping faction, because that fandom largely didn’t exist.

The circumstances of how it came to be? A last minute add to the lineage! Are you friggin kidding me? Why so compelled to add that in, Georgie?

But worst of all? Jonos Frey. Oh my god. Jonos fucking Frey. Third child of Rhaegar Frey. That right there is the killing blow. That’s how they know this is big trouble. For GRRM to spoil the most substantial secret in the entire series (other than maybe King Bran), in the exact same way, using another little cutesy variation of Jon’s name, is devastating. There goes any hope of ever convincing yourself GRRM would never reveal something so important in such a flippant way. There goes any hope of ever convincing yourself it has to be meaningless.

So, what do they do? They ignore it. They have to. It simply doesn’t exist. They’ll dedicate themselves to countering all major Jonsa evidence with their flimsy nonsense, but they never touch this. What is there to say?

But never forget, if a Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, had married an Arya or Daenerys in the Stark or Targaryan lineage, you’d never hear the end of it. Never. They’d smother you to death with it. It would be confirmation that their ship is endgame, and everyone else can pack it up.

Jonsas, don’t let them gaslight you. Don’t question your own judgement of how big it is. It’s not a clue or an Easter egg, it’s a bomb sitting on a page, begging to be noticed.

Anyway, wow, this really got away from me, lol. Thanks for the message.

If anyone wants to read more about Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, husband and blood relative to Sansa Stark (And why wouldn’t you!?), I implore you to read the following:

 The Original @occupyvenus

Just Some Thoughts on Jonnel One-Eye Stark and Sansa Stark @estherruth-jonsatrash

 Jon ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark @ladyofasoiaf

And I suppose you could read my original commentary on it, but there’s no real literary analysis, it’s just me screaming “Are you kidding me!?” for several paragraphs. :)  Here.

<3 <3 <3

[ladyofasoiaf]

Jon ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark

In this meta I will try to point out the clues of Jon’s death- warging into his direwolf- coming back to life process. 

Our main hint is going to be : ONE EYE motifs... 

And interestingly this hint is always close to Sansa... 

[Most of these clues etc have been already examined by many people but I will try to put them all in order to show the pattern..]

A GAME OF THRONES:

Waymar Royce

Waymar Royce appearence and story are very similar with Jon’s. 

They look similar:

Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.

[AGOT; Prologue]

Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.  

[AGOT; Bran I]

They are both young men of Night’s Watch but they were not very welcomed by their other black brothers:

His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. “Bet he killed them all himself, he did,” Gared told the barracks over wine, “twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior.” They had all shared the laugh. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups, Will reflected as he sat shivering atop his garron. Gared must have felt the same.

[AGOT; Prologue]

“Yes, life,” Noye said. “A long life or a short one, it’s up to you, Snow. The road you’re walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night.” “They’re not my brothers,” Jon snapped. “They hate me because I’m better than they are.” “No. They hate you because you act like you’re better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he’s a lordling.” The armorer leaned close. “You’re no lordling. Remember that. You’re a Snow, not a Stark. You’re a bastard and a bully.”

[AGOT; Jon III]

Others are a very important part of Jon’s arc and story and Waymar meets with them in Prologue:

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.

[AGOT; Prologue]

This phrase also reminds us Jon:

It is more than impatience, Jon realized. They are afraid. Warriors, spearwives, raiders, they are frightened of those woods, of shadows moving through the trees. They want to put the Wall between them before the night descends. 

A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You’ll dance with me anon.

[ADWD; Jon XII]

In Prologue, Waymar gets killed by Others:

Royce’s body lay facedown in the snow, one arm out-flung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy.

[AGOT; Prologue]

And Jon dies in ADWD:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[ADWD; Jon XIII]

But Waymar comes back to life as a wight with ‘ONE EYE’:

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

[AGOT; Prologue]

So: A young man of Night’s Watch who looks like Jon dies and comes back to life with ONE EYE. 

Let’s continue with the second book...

A CLASH OF KINGS:

Orell

Orell is Wildling who is also a skinchanger. His animal is an EAGLE. 

Jon kills Orell in ACOK; Jon VI:

Jon nodded toward the one by the fire. It felt queer, picking a man to kill. 

[...]

Jon’s man leapt to his feet, thrusting at his face with a burning brand. He could feel the heat of the flames as he flinched back. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw the sleeper stirring, and knew he must finish his man quick. When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp. 

[...]

“You ought to burn them you killed,” said Ygritte.

[ACOK; Jon VI]

But due to the magic of skinchanging, a portion of Orell’s consciousness remained in the eagle, which developed a fierce hatred for Jon.

And in ACOK; Jon VII he dreams of an eagle attacking him and people talk about vargs and skinchangers:

Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun… “Ghost!” Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. “Ghost, to me!” Ebben appeared, grabbed him, shook him. “Quiet! You mean to bring the wildlings down on us? What’s wrong with you, boy?” “A dream,” said Jon feebly. “I was Ghost, I was on the edge of the mountain looking down on a frozen river, and something attacked me. A bird… an eagle, I think…”

[...]

“Skinchanger?” said Ebben grimly, looking at the Halfhand. Does he mean the eagle? Jon wondered. Or me? Skinchangers and wargs belonged in Old Nan’s stories, not in the world he had lived in all his life. Yet here, in this strange bleak wilderness of rock and ice, it was not hard to believe.

[ACOK; Jon VII]

So: There is a skinchanger who dies because of Jon but a part of him keeps living in his animal: eagle. 

The interesting thing is that between these two Jon chapters (Orell and eagle dream) comes a very important Sansa chapter which has many parallels with Jon VI chapter...

An example of parallels:

[…] ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.”

“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious…  

[ACOK; Jon VI]

Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.”

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.”

Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I… I thought it would be different.”  

[ACOK; Sansa IV]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: B5 

In this chapter Sansa says she wants to be loved and Cersei warns her that “love kills too...” Next chapter is Jon with his eagle dreams and warging abilities:

A half smile flickered across the queen’s face. “[…]Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?”

“Everyone wants to be loved.”

“I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”  

[ACOK; Sansa IV]

Let’s move on to third book...

A STORM OF SWORDS:

Orell and Wargs

In ASOS; Jon I, we learn the name of the Wildling that Jon has killed in ACOK; Jon VI:

“He slew Qhorin Halfhand,” said Longspear Ryk. “Him and that wolf o’ his.”

“And did for Orell too,” said Rattleshirt.

“The lad’s a warg, or close enough,” put in Ragwyle, the big spearwife. “His wolf took a piece o’ Halfhand’s leg.”

[...]

“What’s this?” he said. “A crow?”

“The black bastard what gutted Orell,” said Rattleshirt, “and a bloody warg as well.”

“You were to kill them all.”

“This one come over,” explained Ygritte. “He slew Qhorin Halfhand with his own hand.”

[ASOS; Jon I]

This Jon chapter comes after ASOS; Sansa I. 

And these chapters have many parallels such as:

Sansa knelt at the feet of her future queen. “You do me great honor, Your Grace.” “Won’t you call me Margaery? Please, rise. Loras, help the Lady Sansa to her feet. Might I call you Sansa?”  

[ASOS; Sansa I]  

“I would be pleased to eat, Your Grace. And thank you.”

“Your Grace?” The king smiled. “That’s not a style one often hears from the lips of the free folk. I’m Mance to most, The Mance to some. Will you take a horn of mead?”  

[ASOS; Jon I]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: C1

We also learn about Sansa’s new betrothed: Willas Tyrell.. 

Willas has a bad leg and so does Jon, in ASOS:

“Willas has a bad leg but a good heart,” said Margaery. “He used to read to me when I was a little girl, and draw me pictures of the stars. You will love him as much as we do, Sansa.”

[ASOS; Sansa I]

If the mare had gone down, he would have been doomed. “A lucky thing my leg got in the way,” he muttered.

He rested for a while to let the horse graze. She did not wander far. That was good. Hobbled with a bad leg, he could never have caught her.

[ASOS; Jon V]

Let’s keep reading...

In ASOS; Jon II chapter Jon’s eagle dream from ACOK comes true and Orell’s eagle attacks Jon’s eye:

He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. “My eye,” he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.

“It’s only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some.”

[…]

Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence.

[…]

I will need to get this tended, he thought, but not just now. Let the King-beyond-the-Wall see what his eagle did to me.

[…]

The look Mance gave Jon was grim and cold. “What happened to your face?”

Ygritte said, “Orell tried to take his eye out.”

“It was him I asked. Has he lost his tongue? Perhaps he should, to spare us further lies.”

Styr the Magnar drew a long knife. “The boy might see more clear with one eye, instead of two.”

“Would you like to keep your eye, Jon?” asked the King-beyond-the-Wall. “If so, tell me how many they were. And try and speak the truth this time, Bastard of Winterfell.”

Jon’s throat was dry. “My lord… what…”

[ASOS; Jon II]

Jon almosts loses his ‘one eye’ and becomes Jon ‘One Eye’ Snow because of this attack..

After this eagle attack Jon chapter comes ASOS; Sansa II 

And these chapters have many parallels such as:

Jon wheeled and followed Tormund back toward the head of the column, his new cloak hanging heavy from his shoulders. It was made of unwashed sheepskins, worn fleece side in, as the wildlings suggested.

[…]  

“I wear the cloak you gave me, Your Grace.”  

[ASOS; Jon II]

A new gown?” she said, as wary as she was astonished.

“More lovely than any you have worn, my lady,” the old woman promised. She measured Sansa’s hips with a length of knotted string. “All silk and Myrish lace, with satin linings. You will be very beautiful. The queen herself has commanded it.”

“Which queen?” Margaery was not yet Joff’s queen, but she had been Renly’s. Or did she mean the Queen of Thorns? Or…“The Queen Regent, to be sure.”  

[ASOS; Sansa II]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: C2

And after the chapter of an eagle attacks Jon’s eye we learn in next chapter that Sansa’s betrothed Willas Tyrell flies EAGLES:

“Willas has the best birds in the Seven Kingdoms,” Margaery said when the two of them were briefly alone. “He flies an eagle sometimes. You will see, Sansa.” 

[ASOS; Sansa II]

Why is Almost One Eye Jon and Sansa Stark being near to each other important?

Because the first Sansa Stark in Stark family tree was married with her half-uncle Jonnel ‘One Eye’ Stark:

So another Sansa being close to another Stark family member who almost had lost his one eye sounds interesting. 

Well, Jon didn’t lose his eye but his face got scarred:

He had almost forgotten about his face. “A skinchanger tried to rip out my eye.”

Noye frowned. “Scarred or smooth, it’s a face I thought I’d seen the last of. We heard you’d gone over to Mance Rayder.”

[ASOS; Jon VI]

Who else has a scarred face? Sansa’s husband- Tyrion Lannister:

“I like your scar.” She traced it with her finger. “It makes you look very fierce and strong.”

He laughed. “Very ugly, you mean.”

“M’lord will never be ugly in my eyes.” She kissed the scab that covered the ragged stub of his nose.

[ASOS; Tyrion II]

Varamyr 

What happens to this eagle later?

Skinchanger, Varamyr Sixskins, takes control of Orell’s eagle. Varamyr uses the eagle to scout Castle Black and spots Stannis Baratheon’s arrival at the Wall.

The eagle bursts into flames during the attack on Castle Black with Melisandre claiming she was responsible. 

The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling’s eyes. “Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him,” he said in a soft voice. “Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”

[...]

“Banners,” he heard Varamyr murmur, “I see golden banners, oh . . .” A mammoth lumbered by, trumpeting, a half-dozen bowmen in the wooden tower on its back. “The king . . . no . . .”

Then the skinchanger threw back his head and screamed.The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the ’cat was screaming too.... and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.

[ASOS; Jon X]

Melisandre burns the eagle. Who else got burned in the books? 

Jon Snow in AGOT:

He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he’d felt nothing; the agony had come after.

[AGOT; Jon VIII]

And Jon burns himself in AGOT; Jon VII:

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear’s fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. “Burn!” the raven cawed. “Burn, burn, burn!”

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he’d ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. “Ghost!” he shouted.

The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

This Jon chapter comes after AGOT; Sansa IV:

And these two chapters have many parallels such as:

So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

[AGOT; Sansa IV]

They took his knife and his sword and told him he was not to leave his cell until the high officers met to decide what was to be done with him. And then they placed a guard outside his door to make certain he obeyed. His friends were not allowed to see him, but the Old Bear did relent and permit him Ghost, so he was not utterly alone.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

*

Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she’d built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen.

[AGOT; Sansa IV]

Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?

[…]


Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. “Ghost!” he shouted.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: A10

What happens to skinchanger Orell and warg Varamyr after the eagle burst into flames?

The incident greatly affects Varamyr and supposedly kills the remnants of Orell inside the eagle. 

After the defeat of the wildlings at the battle beneath the Wall, Varamyr has lost all his possessions in his madness from experiencing the eagle’s death; he has also lost control of his snow bear and shadowcat, but his wolves remain.

[Orell dying completely and Varamyr gets mad also reminds me another resurrected character Beric Dondarrion who also has ONE EYE and him dying for good to bring Catelyn Stark back to life... And like Varamyr, Lady Stoneheart loses her mind too... ]

Let’s move on to fourth book...

A FEAST FOR CROWS:

Jon is not even in this book? 

But Sansa is and we learn few things about her crushes:

Waymar Royce:

She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl.

[AFFC; Alayne I]

Grrm reminds us Waymar Royce aka the biggest foreshadowing for Jon in AFFC book via Sansa’s chapter... 

Loras Tyrell:

Loras was another crush of Sansa and we learn that he got burned really bad in AFFC. 

Like the eagle and Jon. 

“Tell me,” said Margaery. “I command it.” Command it? Cersei paused a moment, then decided she would let that pass. “The defenders fell back to an inner keep once the curtain wall was taken. Loras led the attack there as well. He was doused with boiling oil.” Lady Alla turned white as chalk, and ran from the room. “The maesters are doing all they can, Lord Waters assures me, but I fear your brother is too badly burned.”

[AFFC; Cersei VIII]

More about Loras // Jon, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: A8

Let’s keep reading the fifth book...

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS:

In ADWD; Prologue Varamyr encounters with Others (just like AGOT; Prologue) and Varamyr’s body dies, but his mind lives on in his wolf One Eye. 

And Varamyr also thinks about Jon and his direwolf.. 

So we have dead warg who kept living in his animal: A WOLF whose name is ONE EYE. 

Varamyr could feel the snowflakes melting on his brow. This is not so bad as burning. Let me sleep and never wake, let me begin my second life. His wolves were close now. He could feel them. He would leave this feeble flesh behind, become one with them, hunting the night and howling at the moon. The warg would become a true wolf. Which, though?

[...]

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

[...]

A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. That was his last thought as a man. True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo. When they reached the crest the wolves paused. 

[...]

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life. She sees me.

[ADWD; Prologue]

Jon dies in his last ADWD chapter and his last word was his direwolf’s name: GHOST... 

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[ADWD; Jon XIII]

So we have a full circle: 

It started with Agot; Prologue 

and ended with ADWD; Jon XIII

Let’s not forget that Jon’s death was foreshadowed in ASOS; Sansa VI chapter. 

Lord Petyr dismissed him with a wave, and returned to the pomegranate again as Oswell shuffled down the steps. “Tell me, Alayne—which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?”  

“The hidden dagger.”  

“There’s a clever girl.” He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds.  

[ASOS; Sansa VI]

Next chapter was Jon:

Fore more about Jon’s death and Sansa; please check: 

Jonsa Book Hints: C12 & E7 

“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

“It is always cold on the Wall.”

“You think so?”

“I know so, my lady.”

“Then you know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered.  

[ADWD; Jon I]

In conclusion:

Jon’s death, him warging into his direwolf during his death and him coming back to life arc has been foreshadowed since AGOT; Prologue and its most obvious hints were given in ADWD; Prologue by echoing AGOT; Prologue. 

The ‘ONE EYE’ motif seems like a key hint for his resurrection. 

And Sansa is always close to this motif or she has some connections with this motif via other characters or her chapters. 

A Sansa Stark being close to another ‘ONE EYE’ Stark is interesting because of the historical couple: Jonnel ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark in Stark family tree.. 

Even the hints of Jon’s death can be found in Sansa chapters. 

All of these tell us that Sansa will be important in Jon’s past resurrection story. 

Thanks for reading. 

Some sources:

Waymar // Jon 

Disfigurements 

Jonnel / Sansa

Jon’s fate and losing an eye

[fedonciadale]

I think the marriage between Jonnel and Sansa Stark is the better proof that GRRM has been thinking about jonsa as a real possibility and he's not disgusted by the idea as some like to say. You have to be really obtuse to think that an author like him doesn't know the implications of putting those names into a relationship when he has two central characters with the same or very similar names. It doesn't mean that jonsa will happen 100%, but it means that, at least, grrm is not that against it.

Hi there!

Yes, I think it's one of the strongest foreshadowings. If you use the Roman method of sorting consanguinity into degrees cousins are fourth degree and half-uncle and niece are also fourth degree - in many societies the degree from that onwards marriages are allowed.

GRRM never said anything about Jonsa, the only thing he ever said was that he answered to a comment where the OP said that they were looking forward to Jon and Sansa taking back Winterfell, that he would not say more than he had told in the books. 🤔

There is a RLJ hint in the Frey family in the appendices so it certainly means that there are hints hidden in the pseudo-histories, the family trees and the appendices. There are so many hints in Fire and Blood!

@occupyvenus made a long post about the fact that GRRM changed the Stark family tree from an early draft to insert Jonnel and Sansa. Which means that it is something he did deliberately. And then there is also all the foreshadowings that Jon might lose an eye (Orell the Eagle almost scratching his eye out and others) and this Jonnel is called one-eye. I saw a post about that recently and will add it in the notes once I find it.

The one thing that worries me is that Jonnel and Sansa had no children. I think that means that our Jon and Sansa will be complimentary in that regard: they might get children but not a marriage, but that's just my take.

Thanks for the ask!

Edit: https://istumpysk.tumblr.com/post/614612985055477760/a-few-words-on-jonnel-and-sansa-stark

With a link to occupyvenus' post.

[blissfulphilospher]

I posted the AI pictures of Jonnel and Sansa on Ao3 fic but it has seemed to be vanished in air. So here they are. 

Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell 

The one who was her father's heir and should have been the first reigning Lady Stark of Winterfell, Warden of North but instead has to become the consort of her half uncle. 

I am damn sure other Sansa, our Sansa would become the first reigning Lady Stark of Winterfell. 

Lord Jonnel 'One Eye' Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of North

He became his brothers heir. Just like Robb made Jon his heir passing over Sansa and Arya. And he married his half neice... Weren't First Men against incest? His actions gives Daemon Targaryen vibes... 

[babybells123]

A compilation of my favourite Jonsa metas <3

Pre/post-series source material:

Jonnel 'One Eye' Stark x Sansa Stark (original post).

Some more words on Jonnel and Sansa:

The Black Prince With The White Guardian (aka as the best Ashford Tourney analysis ever.)

More Ashford Tourney (dispelling anti-arguments):

Ashford champions:

The original outline & GRRM's red-haired love interests:

The Pact of Ice and Fire:

Sansa Stark/Queen Alysanne parallels:

A mini-compilation of historical pairings/couples from the songs & Jon and Sansa:

Literary/artistic influences:

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn & Jon and Sansa:

The human heart in conflict with itself:

Lord Byron & Jon and Sansa:

Jon Snow is a Byronic hero:

Sansa Stark & the Pre-Raphaelites:

The incest motif in conjunction with thematic influence:

Romanticism:

Book foreshadowing & clues:

A Time for Wolves (the case for Jon and Sansa). (2013)

The parallel journey of Jon Snow and Sansa Stark:

A compilation of every book hint, from the start of the series:

Chapter transitioning:

Jon 'One Eye' Snow & Sansa Stark.

Restoring Winterfell:

Jon is never far from Sansa's suitors.

If I give him sons he may come to love me/If I wanted her love she might give me children: (or the domestic desire):

Lyanna/Sansa parallels:

Jon Snow/Prince Aemon the Dragonknight parallels:

Sansa Stark/Queen Naerys parallels:

Roses & Jonsa (and hope):

Jon/Waymar Royce:

Sansa.looked.radiant.

The Girl in Grey theory:

Additional Girl in Grey references:

More Girl in Grey:

The 'willowy creature' and repressive desires: (aka Jon Snow is a romantic.)

Sansa Stark & Targaryen imagery:

Sansa Stark & the white cloak:

Jon Snow, Sansa Stark & Winterfell:

Jon Snow is the silent, unconscious answer to Sansa's prayers:

Jon’s foils:

Anvilicious desires:

AFFC Alayne II (Arriving at Snow and leaving behind Stone) - chapter analysis.

TWOW Alayne I: Who she was, Who matters, and Who it will be: - chapter analysis.

Allusions to Jon through Sansa's dance partners in TWOW:

Dance with me anon (Jon ADWD):

A hero from the songs:

There are no heroes/Edd, fetch me a block:

Sansa, Jon & sweetness:

A sight so lovely & dark honey hair:

A ghost wolf, big as mountains:

An enchantment:

Blood superiority & how Jon and Sansa differ from the rest:

Of Ghostly Silences, Bats, Brimstone and a Ghost Wolf, Big as Mountains.

Some thoughts on Jon and Sansa:

Extra tidbits:

The Jonsa compendium (aka the holy website that compiles all the major evidence)

Kissing cousins (google doc):

Why Jon and Sansa are so uniquely compelling.

Game of Thrones hints written by the man himself - (The Bear and the Maiden fair):

Wish fulfilment (gif):

Visuals: The wolves will come again.

The original outline & how Jon and Sansa encapsulate hope and literary subversion: (my meta).

GRRM's use of foreshadowing:

Fandom stupidity regarding foreshadowing:

Textual analysis:

Why Jon and Sansa are so intriguing: (my meta).

GRRM about Jonsa:

[janiedean]

Do you think Jonsa is going to happen? I did read some meta about foreshadowing and it's a "squint if you miss it" but there is stuff. For example. Jonnel/Sansa stark in the family tree. People say the fact that Jon didn't care about Sansa being wed to Tyrion, compared to Arya being wed to Ramsay means he his repressing his painful memories and how he has a secret crush on her.

... tldr and sorry for the harshness: no, but if you want to go into the details, with no offense to anyone shipping it of course:

as I already recently ranted, jon and sansa are in two totally different brackets - jon is a main five, sansa is in the following bracket, jon has the entire chosen one storyline plus being the center of the entire story going on, sansa has the I want the love story and I'll get it plotline which does not mesh with jon's so there's that;

sansa's story arc is admittedly painfully clear in the beginning as in: if she thinks she's going to marry a beautiful gallant pretty prince and she thinks it's joffrey who is like attractive and LOOKS gallant but we all know how it went, then she's going to end up with someone who is the total opposite, also if she wanted to be queen in the beginning then it means she's absolutely not going to be in the end bc her entire arc is about realizing that everything she wanted in the beginning is not what she truly wants, and since jon is absolutely poised to get kingship, divide the kingdoms and fuck off to the wildlings after there is no way that her storyline meshes with his like that;

sansa's only viable love interests at this point on page are sandor and tyrion, the end, which by the way are, guess what, not standard attractive and are two people who need to overcome their trauma but never treated her unfairly, and like... denying that in the text sansa is attracted to sandor (she MAKES UP that he kissed her, she dreams he comes to her on her wedding night, she's all like AH BUT JUST *I* KISSED THE HOUND etc like sorry but that's a thing never mind all the knightly investment subtext) and that sandor is her love interest on text is imvho absolutely senseless - you can ship whatever you want and realize that canon isn't going there and write fanfic, no one is gonna stop you, and I can accept the endgame theory from sansa/tyrion shippers even if I think sansa/sandor is it, but sansa/anyone else is absolutely out of the question;

also sandor is the only one sansa thinks about using all the criteria ned used to describe the knight he would find her which was better than joffrey bless whoever went and did the search (brave gentle and strong) and she doesn't use neither of those terms to think about jon, like there's more evidence for littlefinger based on that and idt lf is gonna be her intended;

they think they're siblings and like I know that saying 'BUT THE INCEST' in these books is not like an automatic NO because there's canon incest and the rival ship ie j*nerys also would be incest but like one thing is jc which is not endgame and plainly described as abusive/unhealthy, one thing is targ incests which like the narrative generally is like HEY THIS WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA ABOUT and one thing is falling in love with someone you thought was your sibling and you grew up with like that the moment you find out you're cousins - that... doesn't work like that. and like while I don't have a horse in this race and j*nerys is hardly my ideal endgame sorry but it's a lot more likely that jon would end up getting with someone who he never met before, was the sister of a father he never knew and doesn't even consider his father and he had no relation with before than with... someone he actually thought was his sister, even if he finds out she's his cousin that doesn't change it;

'repressing painful memories' jon has zero issue thinking about catelyn or sansa not treating him great so idk what he should be repressing;

arya vs sansa question: .... well that's like getting close to the entire point but not getting it, in the sense that while jon didn't take wf because it belonged to sansa - but he said he would have if ygritte had been alive and stannis said he could marry her and not val which I mean... says all honestly - technically he made vows saying he renounced his family which is the entire fucking point re arya - the point is that he didn't give those vows up for robb but he would for arya which was the one he was closest to which is what makes everyone else kill him and no he wouldn't have done that for sansa because she was the only one who kept him at a distance, but...

the entire damned point is that they have to reconnect as siblings. sansa going back north (which is gonna happen) and jon being there and most likely getting legitimized/getting robb's will etc means that they have, as adults (or at least... well not kids) realize that how she treated him was wrong and that they can build a relationship which means that each single text reference to each other which is really nothing romantic™ is posed to tell you THESE TWO WILL BE THE STARK SIBLINGS MEETING FIRST and since they didn't have a close rship before they will forge one now, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be romantic endgame, because jon's point isn't having the uber romantic storyline and sweeping a maiden off her feet and sansa already has at least one love interest posed to do exactly that and while their sl are absolutely meant to intersecate on a sibling finding each other again level they are off when it comes to romance;

also a j*nsa endgame would... imply that she becomes queen of the seven kingdoms and they stay reigning there when sansa is absolutely posed to stay in the north and do her own thing and jon is posed to destroy the united-westeros-because-a-targ-did-it legacy (which like... great bookend bc first legit targ king unites it, bastard stark-targaryen king who most likely is keeping the bastard name undoes it) and he is going to hate each second of it, so it doesn't add up with sansa getting her happy love song fairytale romance... which again she can get from other people that the text strongly pointed at already.

so: no because it makes no sense thematically for either of them and for that matter I don't even think jon*erys is eventual endgame tho I guess it has to happen at this point given the show mess idk but if either of them had to be j*nerys would make a load more sense and I still think that a targ restoration with two monarchs keeping on being monarchs is not what a dude who is obviously anti-monarchy has in mind for the endgame. like no offense to anyone into it ofc but again it has zero textual basis for being romantic endgame and it wouldn't even make either of them happy bc jon is not sansa's gentle brave strong knight and sansa isn't the kind of woman jon is actually into (ygritte reminded him of arya I mean) and idt he'd get romantic feelings for his sister who he's going to think of in that terms anyway so there's my two cents. and I understand that it's not smth that a lot of people would agree with but take it up with grrm because he's the one putting that in the text and not me X°D

[sherlokiness]

As a Jonsa , we have Jonnel and Sansa Stark but it's avuncular marriage.

As a Jonerice, they have Aemon X Naerys romance but it's brother/sister.

I'm on the camp that Jon's name will be Aemon in the books. GRRM, whatcha doing?If we swap the names of the girls then it would make much more sense but the problem is there is only one Jon/Aemon.🤡🤡🤡

[butterflies-dragons]

Themes like incest, kinslaying, oathbreaking are considered as sins and amoral in asioaf. But I think grrm is exploring many layers in it. If Gilly would have killed Craster to escape from rape would it be called sin? Jaime killed his king Aerys to stop his madness from killing everyone , was that immoral? Jon broke his oath to save his sister, was it wrong? I think grrm is asking to not see those things black and white.

Baby in our wildest moments We could be the greatest, we could be the greatest Maybe in our wildest moments We could be the worst of all [x]

***

Not all incest tho. Remember that Westeros was OK with cousins marriages (Tywin/Joanna, Rickard/Lyarra) and with aunt/uncle and nephew/niece marriages as well (Jonnel/Sansa). And the Targaryen brought their Valyrian tradition to marry brother and sister to Westeros via dragon threat and doctrines of exceptionalism as justification (meaning only them can do it, because dragons).

What is considered a sin in Westeros is the brother and sister, and parent with children incest, like Jaime/Cersei, and Craster and his daughters/wives.

But with kingslaying and oathbreaking, it seems that these general rules/commandments accept no exception, like self defense, life preservation, victim's fault, the greatest good, etc. Those rules are so sacred that they carry a punishment no matter what.

So you are right about GRRM asking his readers to not see those things black and white, with examples of Gilly, Jaime and Jon.

All those "problematic," "controversial," "radical," "immoral," "grey" decisions and actions are the result of what Martin's considers the only thing that is worth to write about: the human heart in conflict with itself.

He is also trying to tell us that we are capable of greatness but also capable to commit the most horrible crimes and abominations. That's how he writes his characters:

[...] They come in all varieties and even the individuals have good and evil within them. I’ve always tried to do that because I think that’s realistic, and I think we’re all grey. We all have good and bad in us, we’ve all done good things and we’ve all done bad things. And we can do, I mean, real history is full of stories about people who did something wonderful on Tuesday and something horrible on Thursday, same person.

There is a wonderful writer who passed away a few years ago, not a science fiction writer but, Pat Conroy. Have any of you ever read Pat Conroy? Terrific writer, one of the great writers I think of the 20th century. And he wrote… A lot of his books were made into movies, “The Great Santini”, “The Water is Wide”, which as made into the movie “Conrack,” based on his own experiences teaching, “The Lords of Discipline”. But probably the best known books of his is  “The Prince of Tides”, and I remember that book, that book has a character in it who is an absolutely abusive father, he terrorizes his children he abuses them both verbally and physically. He’s horrible to his wife, he’s really a despicable, horrible person. But there are flashbacks within that to World War II, about an American aviator flying a mission over Nazi Germany who was shot down, and that, he parachutes out to safety but now he’s in the middle of Nazi Germany and he has to get back to the lines. He makes his way though the German lines, you know, hiding in haystacks, and occasionally meeting Germans who try to turn him in, and the other Germans who are kind to him and hide him. And that, you know, it’s an interesting secondary storyline. It’s the same character, and you realize as you read this, you’re reading the story about this brave American aviator trying to make his way through the Nazi’s and to get back to the lines, and you’re really rooting for him, and you’re identifying with him, and you think he’s great, and then you get to the present day and he’s this horrible wretched person, based on Conrad’s own father, who was mistreating his family. And I loved that, I mean, the depth of character there. It was amazing, and the fact that Conrad did it so greatly. So that’s… that’s some of my views on characters.

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