#more problems I have with chot

[streettealee]

Do I write fanfiction because I genuinely still enjoy the fandom... or am I holding on to something I am long overdue letting go of in favour of finally pursuing my original works full-time? 

Because I adore the TLH cast, truly. But I think I’m exhausted now. All the rants about character endings, themes that did not carry over and arcs that did not resolve, frustration over seeing all the more optimistic views when I’m still raging over the disservice to certain characters -- I think I may be done now. Or maybe just FOR now. Characters can belong to a fandom and interpretations to fan authors, but... they don’t feel like mine anymore. 

Am I here for the community? Is that it? 

It feels wrong to abandon my fics while they remain incomplete. I literally have a full outline for WBITHOM and could tell you what happens in each chapter and what the ending is right now. I’ve just lost the will to write it out in proper form. What does my work mean to anyone anyway? It’s only a wish fulfilment self-insert at the end of the day.

How many times CAN I read about these characters without thinking about what everyone else’s thoughts are, the news of what CC has planned, the fact that TLH has ended and it was kind of a flop no matter how satisfied a large number of people may be and that TWP is next and much more hyped? 

The TSC universe has endless possibilities (I still think about sea faring Shadowhunters thanks to discussions with @thevagabondexpress) and yet it feels kind of like it’s running dry. For me, at least. There are still fanfics I like to read; I just don’t think I can write my own. And I’m not that excited about the future installments to canon. 

CC follows a formula and the only time she truly feels unpredictable is when she pulls the kind of stunts we saw in TLH where characters were killed for shock value, another character acts as a convenient fix-up for the infamous family tree, characters who were supposed to be best friends but didn’t spend enough time together to feel that close at all, red herrings for character deaths everywhere, just... for crying out loud, everything ended a little Too Well, barring Kit’s death and the anticlimactic deaths of our antagonists (Tatiana’s defeat could have been MUCH cooler). What happened to the promise that it’d be more emotional than TID? Sure, I sobbed when Kit died but that was because it was unexpected, unfair, and he reminded me of someone who I cared about. But that was it. I felt so empty after that when I was reading. I got to the end of the novel and while, yes, it was bittersweet -- it just wasn’t satisfying. I was not satisfied.

ChOT felt cheap. I’ll say it. So many plot beats and decisions felt cheap. 

None of my fanfics work to repair any of that. They feel pointless. Why do I bother writing then? My fics change some things -- for instance: Cordelia’s lack of knowledge, letting Matthew actually have something significant and life-changing happen to him in a way that is meant to better his life in the long-term, James actually having more of an identity crisis, him and Matthew having more connection moments -- but does anyone really care about that? I have no idea. 

So, I feel like I’m not contributing anything. Therefore, this is either a “I’m done writing fanfic for now” or “I’m hungry and on my period and something will inspire me when I least expect it and you’ll probably see an update sooner than later”. I don’t know. My fic feels like a lot of effort for very little self-satisfaction. I don’t feel that proud of it or many others I’ve done, if that makes sense.

[helenofblackthorns]

mutual on twitter just finished reading chot and it's bringing everything back 😭 mostly the rage like fuck that book for real

[imminentinertia]

On Step by Step and cups of tea

I'm going to have to tack on to @lurkingshan's post about Pat, because of her

I am really struggling with Pat’s character

I'm struggling too, and how. I have moments where I like him quite a lot, but I have far more moments where I want to smack him upside the head, and suddenly it hit me what my problem with him is.

You know the Camp and Chaotic side character archetype in BL, yes? He's messy, he's often loud, when he gets drunk he dances like a maniac and then dissolves into sobbing, his motivation is often unclear and he may seem undecided and wibbly, he's often looking for love in the wrong places (but he may find true love!).

His role is to prod the main characters' action in the direction of getting together - sometimes as a common frenemy or even enemy, sometimes as a member of one character's Overly Invested Friends Group. He acts as a foil now and then, but more often he's given the less odious comic relief function. He's not always actually important to the main characters themselves, but acts as a general mood lightener in between heavier scenes. Often he casts in relief the main characters' struggles with being in love and with dealing with their own emotions, as he's also unapologetically gay.

Green in 2gether is a good example of this archetype.

... this archetype is not my cup of tea.

And Pat is one.

No, hear me out, please - Pat is the Camp and Chaotic archetype but he's placed centre stage. We get all of his story, not just the mess and the wisdom nuggets the archetype often gets to deliver to nudge the main along. We get his quiet moments and his worries, too.

In principle, I'm all for this. I like that the camp archetype gets to be rounded, gets to be in the limelight, because he deserves it just as much as the rest of the character types.

But among other people, and in his general patterns of behaviour? I definitely see Pat as a C&C. He has limited self control (how many times has he embarrassed himself while drunk now?) and does he ever make messes. Pat is out, and he finds a great friend in Chot (who's not this archetype, he's far too calm and collected, he's the Femme Gay Friend). Pat's role isn't to nudge others along, but to learn and grow and eventually find love, helped by side characters, sure, but he's an ungodly mess a lot of the time.

And here he is, moderately camp but chaotic and emotional, all eyes are on him and he's not faffing about in the wings jolting the story when needed.

However, the C&C isn't for me. I like soft, deep voices and calm behaviour, or flat out anger and violence. I cover my ears when this archetype gets loud and I wince when they get particularly messy. I'm not clamouring for their extinction, but they're not my cup of tea and it's dawning on me that this is why I'm not really interested in Pat's journey or his love life.

It's really great that I adore Jeng and am invested in his part of the story, then...

[ofstarsandmoonlightt]

people are comparing conor and kel to will and jem when there’re matthew and james right there to do so. like conor and kel’s relationship is what happens when matthew and james don’t resolve their problems. i haven’t read chot properly but until choi their relationship was already on its way to a toxic one. them being unflinchingly loyal and loving each other so much yes but also then starting to keep secrets from each other and all. tho in comparison conor and kel also have a power imbalance (of conor being the superior one) that math and jamie don’t have thankfully; what i’m tryna say is that we can find more parallels in these two pairs rather than in jem and will who are the epitome of a perfect (brotherly/parabatai) relationship.

[neuroticbookworm]

Step by Step Episode 10, A Retrospective Analysis

I have been a staunch supporter of the writing in this show (here and here), even when the pacing and editing have felt a little stilted in places. I have always maintained that the show understands its characters and does an excellent job of connecting them to the audience via some brilliant writing. But episode 10 felt like it was from a completely different writing crew, and I was left feeling bereft and confused. I took some time to understand why, and I'm gonna share my observations in this post.

Disclaimer: I am actually okay with the place the plot is currently at. I think that it is logical that Jeng and Pat are having these problems from the outside world that are affecting their relationship. My friend and BL Ajahn @bengiyo pointed out in his rapid fire takes that Jeng is exhausted and just wants to ignore the shit that's happening around him and enjoy his time with Pat. @shortpplfedup echoes the same sentiment that JengPat are lost in each other and desperately ignoring the rest of the world. And I agree.

What I want to explore here is that while the episode did leave me at an agreeable point in the narrative, it left me there feeling incredibly unsatisfied (my bestie @lurkingshan talks about the lack of emotional catharsis here) and how very easy it would've been to course correct and preserve that audience-character connection.

The episode opens strong, with Chot telling Pat exactly why the way he is responding is hurtful to Jeng's feelings. "Saying that you don't believe him, it's like you were looking down on his feelings." Hits the nail right on the head. Pat then runs to Pearl & Oliver to meet Jeng on his birthday with *shudder* a carrot cake.

At the restaurant, Pat meets Jeng, and we hit the first snag. Pat asks Jeng if he still likes him, and when Jeng responds with a head nod, Pat breaks down. So Jeng makes his feelings clear one last time, and this makes Pat fire off question after question: "Why are you avoiding me?", "Why are you leaving the company?" and "Why can't I be the one who resigns?". Jeng takes a second to collect himself and answers "I'm not avoiding you" (a bald-faced lie, he is avoiding Pat because Pat told him to stay away), "I'm not leaving, I'm only changing positions" and "I started it, I should have to fix it myself".

I'm typing out this exchange word for word because it shows where Jeng and Pat are emotionally at the moment. Jeng has already made moves to make himself scarce around Pat, and seems to be on the path to moving on after Pat's rejection. He also feels responsible for this mess, he is aware of the pain and confusion Pat was processing before his confession, and he has now added to it. Pat is visibly distressed that he has made matters worse by not articulating his thoughts better.

And now Pat says "But I also like you" and leans into Jeng's shoulder, crying, and Jeng takes a moment, smiles, and says "Now we're together". And this is where the show starts to lose me. Jeng desperately wants to be with Pat and is still pining over him, yes, but he has also made concrete decisions to step away from this situation, which takes deliberating on the effect the events of episode 8 have had on both him and Pat, and concluding that the right and healthy thing to do for the both of them is for him to step away.

This is why I think Jeng would have uttered more than a "Now we're together" at that moment. He would've shown concern, or at the very least, he would've wanted to ask again, if Pat was sure. I hate an unnecessary "Are you sure?" moment that holds no weight as much as the next person, but here it would've made all the difference. Pat is sobbing, tears and snot running down his face, when he confesses to Jeng. Didn't the show go to painstaking lengths to show us the differences between Put and Jeng? I want to believe that the Jeng who was established for the last 9 episodes, even while nursing a broken heart, would've stopped and taken a moment to make sure that Pat is alright, he has thought this through, and this is not an impulse decision made on Jeng's birthday due to guilt.

An "Are you sure?" and a full body hug with both of them deep exhaling all their worries away for a moment, in each other's arms would've transformed the tone of this scene completely, and would've brought the characters in line with their established personalities, without compromising the direction the plot wants to take in the rest of this episode.

According to popular consensus here on Tumblr, Jeng's arc in this episode seemed to be one where he is overwhelmed by the complications his relationship with Pat will bring, and that makes him want to disassociate and only focus on Pat and his desire for him. I would've happily taken this read, if they had shown Jeng TRYING in the beginning and THEN rapidly failing. We know (by implication) that his previous relationship played a role in his leaving the company before. So we saw him make very careful strides in the past episodes, and crossing boundaries when his brain is overwhelmed by desire (re: sharing a bed, filming Pat when he's drunk, the speakeasy).

When Pat rejects him, his mind gets clouded. He had been so focused on doing it right this time, and it has still gone wrong, somehow. And when Pat tells him to stop pursuing him, he now has to focus his energy on making it right and keeping the workplace comfortable for Pat. And finally, when Pat comes to confess his feelings, Jeng is mentally exhausted from the back and forth, yes, but he has no reason to feel it yet. There are no eyes on them yet, no judgements that need to be navigated. He must be elated, to have Pat reciprocate his feelings. So when Pat asks him "So from now on. what are we?" and Jeng doesn't loudly proclaim FAEN, it fells ..off. He just had sex with the person who was living in his mind, rent-free for a whole year, on a kitchen counter surrounded by glass walls; he has no reason to feel melancholia yet.

If we had been gradually let into Jeng's mental state, shown how the fear of judgement from the others AND his logical but tired brain overworking to figure out how to make this work, how to circumvent his past mistakes and failings, were getting to him, the episode would've hit a completely devastating emotional beat. And we could've watched Pat's regression in parallel, struggling with his newfound emotional stability in the workplace, because he couldn't help but notice how Jeng was choosing to ignore problems rather than deal with them.

This gradual descent would've also explained Jeng's communication blackout with Pat. Had we gotten two scenes with them at the dinner table at home or a restaurant, one at the beginning of the relationship, with Jeng and Pat enjoying each other's company, and one near the end of the episode, with Jeng hazy and quiet? It would've sunk me to the floor, sobbing uncontrollably.

And I don't want the explanation that the new relationship haze is clouding their minds. I'm always on Team "Fuck Through Your Problems". Them going at it like rabbits was not the issue in this episode. The issue is that we did not get to see ANYTHING ELSE. We did not see the domesticity shine through when the relationship was new, and slowly tarnish as time passed. The message that queer relationships face undue pressure from society that may affect every couple, regardless of how well matched they are, could've been conveyed with such an amazing contrast, between PutPat and JengPat.

We could've screamed and squealed at the fluff and smut, at P'Jeng and Nong Pat, and weeped as the episode slowly tore our hearts open from our chests. We could've had it all, Tee Bundit. Instead, this is what you chose to give us.

tagging my besties @waitmyturtles, and @lurkingshan who are in the trenches with me and @wen-kexing-apologist who wrote the post that gave me a lone ray of sunshine in all the madness

[bengiyo]

Step By Step: I Get It, But I'm Fine

There's a lot of frustration coming out of episode 11 for a lot of folks, and I genuinely respect how everyone is feeling about it.

I get that we probably should have spent more time inside of Pat and Jeng's dynamic so we could understand what was and wasn't working so we'd be more connected to the breakup.

I get that we probably should have spent more time with Chot and Krit to get a sense of what a long-term, partially-closted relationship looked like in this setting.

I get that we probably spent too much time away from the office tower, and so lost the thread of the workplace politics while in the LGBT-BL-production bubble.

And yet, for me the absence of so many of the romantic beats folks are writing about feels oddly correct for me. Pat has only had one bad relationship, and Jeng feels like he's underdeveloped romantically as well. So much of their relationship feels like a series of false starts and missteps, and Jeng (and Put) are unable to talk about those problems and work with Pat.

It sucks, because I feel like so much of this story is about Pat growing because of the insights he has from his parents, Chot, and his own history, and it's being a bit lost in the shuffle.

Like @ginnymoonbeam wrote and @respectthepetty detailed, I think much of the throughline has been foreshadowed well enough. As a gay person who dated from the closet, I genuinely get a lot of what's happening at an intrinsic level. I'm dissatisfied that their romance is failing, but I'm not surprised or offended, per se. It again makes sense to me.

I mostly just wish everything didn't feel so muddled, because the ideas about how queer people are not allowed romance or joy in the workplace that is going to profit from their existence is a strong theme I wish hadn't gotten lost in the shuffle.

[graceblackthron]

If you could change anything about the last hours, what would it be

ugh there’s so many things that i can’t honestly list them so i will try to go for the main stuff.

the plot! chog starts great the whole deal with james and belial and lucie’s powers and tatiana and grace is all so compelling in the first installment i was pulled instantly at the story. however by the time choi rolls in this starts to crack. many people say chot is the worst and i agree to certain extent but i feel like people still don’t acknowledge that many problems that are obvious in chot had already began in choi (lucie’s arc being pushed to the sidelines. the whole dumb love triangle. romance taking so much focus it slows everything and by the time the plot kicks it feels rushed all the time. and on). so i feel like the saga could’ve do better if the plot was given more thought instead and we slowed with the romance.

and while i’m mentioning romance, i think cc could’ve been more creative. especially because we had a whole family tree but instead of thinking of fun ways in How it ended like that, she decided to later said it wasn’t trustworthy. and by the way what i mean by fun is that cc restricts too much in nuclear family bs like. oh these guys are married so i have to write about their love story. when helloo? the concept of marriage for convenience exists! LAVENDER (for a group so lgbt like tlh) marriages exists!!! just because you wrote these guys married and had families doesn’t mean you can’t mix up and make it “not all what appears is what it is!” case.

but anyways for more specific, smaller changes:

i have already said i would’ve erased the whole alastair bully trope in another post because yuck.

spice up the whole matthew cordelia james to make matthew actually in love with james, because seriously if she’s so obsessed with love triangles she at least should be a little more original.

for lucie to face more trouble for the necromancy with jesse like that was such a let down.

lesbian grace!!!

jesse actually taking into consideration grace’s trauma when judging her actions (i have a rant about this but it’ll have to wait)

for james to have the same characterization he had in the midnight heir

more exploration about lucie’s powers and how they parallel grace’s in some ways to the point their characters are foils

give kit an arc!!!!!! i know many would change his death and obviously i would too but if cc wanted to kill him so bad she should’ve gave him an arc and a proper meaningful death because it was so cheap and for shock value the excuse that Well sometimes people die and it’s just like that feels so empty here.

have grace or james kill tatiana. i love cordelia but i will never understand why it was her that did it, when narratively speaking grace or james would’ve had more impact when we take into account what she did to them. it was such a wasted opportunity imo.

anyways there’s definitely tons more but those are the ones that i can think of right now

[heretherebedork]

The hardest part, for me, of the Step By Step finale was the emptiness. None of it felt like they had earned back their ending or their happiness or solved their interpersonal issues or the problems that lead to their break up in the first place.

Pat meets Jeng two years later after his own success and still instantly assumes he's a master manipulator despite two years of silence and nothing, apparently. It makes him feel less mature than he has in every other episode, honestly.

And Jeng is just... Jeng. He doesn't change and then he just quits and nothing happens? Nothing? Then why make it seem like a big deal? Why make it this huge thing if it's just going to be so little but even more... why is he approaching Pat at all after two years of nothing? Now, I am down for him still being in love but this feels like a 'stay away from him' kind of situation just all over and in general.

And then having Put, apparently, be Pat's best friend again after the fight they had and Ae and Chot encouraging him to be the one to to give Pat romantic advice?! Again. The two year time skip did them such a disservice. Because I would have liked to see that friendship rebuilt, to see Put finally mature enough to actually talk to Pat about his issues. But nope!

Two years is a long time but it feels like no one grew or changed or even started to move on in that period. Where is Pat's confidence? He's been leading a company with Chot and won multiple awards! Where is Jeng's change? We barely see him at all and there's nothing there that indicates any change in understanding since the last moment we saw him supposedly two years ago.

We got nothing with Jaab and Jane so I can't even begin to talk about them except to ask when did they get back in contact, why and what does it mean? Like... what happened?

I frankly think Chot had the most fulfilling storyline in the entire show, in which he was about to come out with his husband and then run a successful business and that's more than I can say for just about any one else because the whole thing felt very much complete.

I still enjoyed the show... or at least most of it... but I'm one of the people where the honeymoon stuff was cute but empty and I did not care half as much as I should have if I'd felt like they could actually make this work and weren't just gonna fall apart again.

[nakasomethingkun]

i need to gush about step by step episode 7 because it’s another episode that makes me love this show more and more!!

i know that some people are very unhappy that pat got back together with put, but honestly, i’m glad he did, and i understood why he did it. from the very first episode, it’s established that pat is young and single and very ready to mingle. plus, he and put used to be very in love, and it seems like they didn’t have proper closure. spending more time with put probably rekindled some of those fond feelings they used to share, and who here isn’t a sucker for nostalgia? and, on a less serious note, like hello have you see put?? why WOULDN’T pat want to take him back?? if my ex looked like up poompat and he begged me to give him another chance while flaunting the shark he crocheted to take advantage of my fixation on sharks and all things cute, i’d give him another chance too.

anyway. this episode showed us why pat and put used to work and why they didn’t, and it showed us why they’re not going to work in the present. for example, food is very important to pat, and yet during the dinner scene, put didn’t seem to be interested in the food (or in pat, tbh) or in the effort pat put into preparing it, which serves as a stark contrast to how jeng is wrt food. with that said, i appreciate how put is not a bad person (or a dramatized villain). he seemed genuinely remorseful of his past actions that led to their break up, yes, but he knows to apologize when he realizes he’s hurt pat about the meal and he respects pat’s boundaries during their night at the hotel. the thing is, he and pat have changed. they used to be in love, and put might still love pat, but time has passed, and things can’t be the same between them between they are different people now.

plot wise, obviously getting back together with put is important for pat’s character to realize his feelings and work through them, but it’s also important for put’s character, i think, because the man needs to let pat go and accept that they won’t work out (and i think he knows this too, deep down).

i also love that this episode is starting to get at the main “problem” at hand: jeng and pat being boss and subordinate. jeng’s feelings are very obvious - jaab seems to have gotten an inkling, and so does chot. but as jaab said at the start of the episode, it’s all very unprofessional if he really does go out with pat. given the power imbalance, it would also be very inappropriate and easily become unhealthy. i look forward to how this show will handle this aspect, since - in terms of the romance plot - the boss-subordinate dynamic would be one of their biggest hurdles.

jaab of course assumed wrong (i.e., jeng did not have dinner with pat), but his point still stands. even his little brother knows it’s not professional! of course jeng is taking things fucking slow and being really careful about what to do about his feelings!! plus, he and pat are in different phases of their lives. pat is young and emotional and has a lot to prove to the world - and do you know how hard it can be, to be in your 20s? well, it’s fucking hard. pat dating his boss is just gonna create a whole new fucking mess in his already stressful life.

so to the folks complaining why pat is looking at other men when jeng is right there: first, jeng is his boss. second, jeng is his fucking boss. third, dating your boss would be the last thing on your mind when you just started your career, work in what used to be a toxic and highly stressful environment, and your boss used to be really rude to you and made you cry. shifting from seeing jeng as his boss to a potential romantic interest is going to take time, and i like that the show is giving pat that space. also, i think that we would like jeng a lot less if he isn’t so professional lmao. jeng told put to separate his personal life from his work, and i think he’s telling this to himself too.

which brings me to another thing i love from this episode: more put and jeng interactions. ever since episode 5, i have always enjoyed seeing the tension between them. they always say one thing that means a different thing, and episode 7 gave us more of this. side note: i thought the seafood dinner scene in ep 5 was BRILLIANT, because at first glance it’s just the characters saying not much of anything, but it’s more than that. it was trying to further establish how jeng is the born winner that put just accused him of being earlier (e.g., he co-own a successful restaurant, he’s a good cook, he doesn’t mind hosting a wedding for free and giving his brother money because he’s filthy rich).

this is just word vomit, but god, i love this show. waiting 2 weeks for episode 7 was so worth it. other than all of the above, we also got to see chot singing up’s song and the ost for lovely writer lmaooo and if the translation is correct wrt his period, he might be trans?? diversity win!!!!

[edwinspaynes]

Your post about how Lucie and Jesse aren't mature enough for their relationship reminded me of another weird thing with them, which is that Lucie met Jesse for the first time as a small child and has been holding onto this idealized vision of him as a faerie prince for years.

Now I can appreciate a ship where one person thinks the other is perfect but has to learn that they're human and ends up loving them all the more, but I don't think that Lucie ever really has that. I got the feeling that she loves Jesse because she loves the inherent romance and adventure of falling for a ghost and bringing him back to life through determination and love, that he's more of a character than a person to her. This might be because he isn't the best written character and the narrative never really acknowledges his flaws (like how he treated Grace), but it seems to me that Lucie was basically thrust into the middle of an epic romantic adventure that fit perfectly into her comfortable world of fantasy novels, and it just stayed that way. She is able to bring Jesse back with no real consequences (yeah Belial uses his body to kill Elias, but it all gets resolved without permanently hurting anyone the audience really cares about), and it's safer and better than when Jace is resurrected by the literal angel Raziel.

If ChoT leaned more into Lucie and Grace's friendship, I think we could have got a really interesting dynamic with Lucie building more empathy for Grace's trauma and learning about the problems with how Jesse treated her. Maybe Grace would inspire Lucie to confront Jesse, and it could help them both grow as people. I also like your idea about focusing on how the Lucie and Jesse situation impacted Malcolm and his quest to bring back Annabel. Actively addressing how much easier it was for her would do a lot to make me happier about the inconsistency, showing that the characters see how unfair it is and get angry about it. I'm fine with the fact that things aren't equally difficult for every character, I just wish there was more insight into how they react to the imbalance.

This ended up being more of a rant than a question, but Lucie frustrates me as a character because she could have been so interesting and she's just not.

So, preface. I'm very overall satisfied with ChoT and I give no fucks at all about Lucie, Jesse, or their relationship. I would not change anything if it would alter the endings of other characters (besides Grace in the ways I'll get to). But I don't think that my hopes would have impacted anyone outside of that trio, so, we good.

I think you hit the nail on the head with

I got the feeling that she loves Jesse because she loves the inherent romance and adventure of falling for a ghost and bringing him back to life through determination and love, that he's more of a character than a person to her.

and

Lucie was basically thrust into the middle of an epic romantic adventure that fit perfectly into her comfortable world of fantasy novels, and it just stayed that way.

I like Lucie fine, but I feel like she ended the narrative exactly as she began it. All of the other characters grew a lot, and Lucie's immaturity is so stark by the end. The only exception to this rule besides Lucie is Jesse, who like you acknowledged has no canon personality besides in the moment where he's utterly awful to Grace.

I periodically think about this, and I have wondered before if Cassie purposely made Jesse a cardboard cutout. Lucie/Jesse is clearly a fairy-tale-esque story, and perhaps she wanted people to be able to project whatever they wanted onto the "Jesse" void so they would feel as though he could be their dream fairytale prince. I don't think so, though, I think this is giving way too much credit to the narrative.

I think it's really interesting how (in my experience) being super underwhelmed with Lucie/Jesse is the TLH fan standard. I know two people who like them, which is great! I'm really close with one! I adore her! But like, "Lucie/Jesse is underwhelming" seems to be a take that 99.9% of TLH fans share, and it's so odd that they overwhelmingly missed the mark.

Re: Lucie and Grace, yeah. Agree.

Here's what I would have done with Ghostwriter (if I couldn't just background them and make them Malcolm's backstory):

Lucie and Grace work hard to ressurect Jesse. Ultimately, though, they fail and Jesse fades. This is the end of ChoI - he is just dead now instead of having come back to life. Lucie can no longer see him, and ChoT is not just her grief cycle but also her "holy shit I have to stop living in fantasy lala land" growth moment. It would have been such a moment of growth for Lucie and could have been poignant as fuck - and, since Jesse is just a cutout, would have only really been sad on a "poor Lucie" level. Grace and Lucie bond in their grief and become really close friends, which is their ending. Much more satisfying for Grace since she would have a friend after Kit died; much more satisfying for Lucie as an arc of growth.

I'm also saying this as a noted hater of tragedy, so I'm very secure in my knowledge that it's a hell of a good plotline. Also, Malcolm watching this failure could have been SO cool. Especially if Lucie, not doing well, had a confrontation with him for failing to resurrect Jesse. And then she refuses to call Annabel - not because she can't. Like, Malcolm's story would have developed even more layers.

If Cassie had been willing to call Jesse the plot device that he was instead of hurriedly trying and failing to give him a semblance of personality in ChoT, we could have had so much more with them.

[whineandcheese24]

so I was thinking about tlh and why it was so unsatisfying and I wanted to share my thoughts (major spoilers for the whole series so if you haven’t finished beware)

one of the biggest things in tlh that isn’t as big in the other series is the idea that the characters are their own worst enemies. most of the conflicts in tlh - especially the relationship problems -  are either created or significantly worsened by the protagonists' actions however justified they might have been. matthew might have never had a drinking problem if he had told James and his parents about what happened, or if he had never trusted the faerie in the first place. alastair wouldn’t have been friendless at first if he hadn’t been a bully. the entirety of lady midnight might not have happened if lucie had told literally anybody about her powers and Jesse instead of keeping it to herself. lillith wouldn’t have been a problem if cordelia hadn’t wanted so badly to prove herself. and there are a dozen more examples. that’s not to say that they didn’t make the right choices (or at least what they thought were the right choices) but they didn’t make good choices. 

and I think part of the reason that tlh (specifically chot) was so unsatisfying is that we never really see the characters change until the very end. we have the symbolism of james having to stab himself and the funeral scene at the end, but still. james doesn’t tell cordelia about the gracelet until 450 pages in. and even when cordelia admits that her pride was a problem to lucie in edom, she never really overcomes it and humbles herself (and that whole self-deprecation thing over lillith is not humility). 

i think the problem was that when you have something like this where the theme is (or is supposed to be, at least) overcoming your own self-destructive behavior, you have to show the outward consequences. CC tried to make it like tatiana and belial were a threat to everybody, and had them kill shadowhunters that weren’t directly related to or friends of tmt and co. but then we never really got to see the consequences of their own actions in the eyes of the other shadowhunters. what CC should have done is shown us the clave’s reactions to everything. show lucie standing trial for necromancy. show the clave’s reactions (not just bridgestock’s) to tessa’s dad. show christopher’s funeral. show the other shadowhunters’ reactions to tmt and co. not coming through the portal to idris. 

and more to the point, she should have made them cause more problems. at first I was happy that they all more or less came out unscathed, but it was unsatisfying. have them make more destructive decisions. have them make decisions that directly and hugely impact the other shadowhunters that aren’t important and then show us their reactions. all of their bad decisions are, more or less, contained within their own group which isn’t good because then they can just say i forgive you, end of story. we should have seen them start to think about the way they make choices and consciously overcome that self-destructive behavior way earier than the last 300 pages of the last book. really, they should have started making bad decisons back in chog (worse than they were making at the time) and then making better choices by the middle of choi, so that they could regress and go back to making bad choices in the beginning of chot and then start making good choices again by the middle/end of chot. this way we have an actual redemption arc that looks and feels more natural than the abrupt stop to bad decisions that happend at the end of chot. we sort of get that with matthew’s drinking problem, but it would have been more meaningful if he had stopped in choi and then him relapsing in chot would have been more emotional.

the tl;dr of this is that, tlh was unsatisfying because CC had a premise of overcoming your own self-destructive behavior to defeat the enemy and win, but it didn’t work out because a. she didn’t lean into it enough and b. it wasn’t something that any of the other tsc books really had in this quantitiy

(there’s also something to be said for the fact that they’re all upper class aristocratic teenagers who barely have to do the one job they’re raised to do but I’m not going to get into that now)

[plantsarepeopletoo]

Step by Step means step by step

So episode 10 concreted the idea that I had kicking around in my head that this show punishes anyone who is moving too fast or doing things out of order.

Episode 1: We see the start of three problems, Pat learning how to set boundaries, Jeng needs to learn how to be more sensitive, and their power dynamic.

Episode 2: Shows what happens when Pat doesn't put up professional boundaries and isn't clam. We also get foreshadowing of consequences of workplace relationships. The company WILL blame the person with no power, "Pat you need to distance yourself" but this is going off topic.

Jeng is still not quite aware of how insensitive he is.

Episode 3: After Pat isn't calm and now his consequence is feeling horribly uncomfortable, getting drunk and meeting Jeng's parents in a very awkward way.

Jeng is feeling the consequences of not being sensitive and seems to at least be realizing that it is a problem.

We get the start of Jaab & Jane. Jaab decides to ignore the fact Jane is taken. Jaab's consequence for now is feeling lonely and upset.

Everyone's clothes are very different, kinda as a sign of how far apart they are emotionally. - something to look for in later episodes.

Episode 4: Jeng listens to Pat! Gets rewarded with starting to have a better relationship with his employees.

Jeng fails to trust Pat after Pat makes a mistake. The game mirrors the boardroom, and Jeng messes up the progress he's made.

Pat isn't chill, jumps to conclusions, and this leads to the group chat incident and the most awkward conversation that could have been an email before he messed up.

Jaab isn't chill, leading to being discovered and pushing Jane away.

Put isn't chill, freaks us and Pat out.

Episode 5: Jeng isn't chill, he's firmly in Pat's boss zone, and his punishment is getting jealous by himself.

THE FIRST BIG ONE! Jaab and Jane flirt and kiss before Jane breaks up. And now everything is in flames, and still is in flames at episode 10 since no one has talked. This one is the real first time I realized the show hates when people do things out of order.

Episode 6-10:

Put pushes his relationship with Pat too quickly and without actually dealing with the core problems and finally pushes Pat away for good.

All of Jeng's heartbreak stems directly from not taking care of the power dynamic he has with Pat first. Or being sensitive, putting all of that weight on Pat when it comes out Jeng's gay and into him. They rush into a physical relationship and that gets them caught (this wouldn't be a problem if they'd do things right). Again, Pat feels all the pressure and Jeng isn't sensitive, so their relationship (from the preview of 11) seems to continue to self destruct. Jeng, sort your shit out.

ALL of the progress any character has made towards each other continues to blow up in their faces cause they're missing steps. Nan, Put, Jaab, and Jane show foreshadowing. Chot shows how you can be rewarded for moving forward by doing the right thing.

@lurkingshan @shortpplfedup @asdfghjklmpff

I'm hungry, hopefully this makes sense. I didn't learn how to gif yet, might edit just to add them if I figure them out.

[rinadragomir]

I fully understand your feelings about not being able to say that you liked Chain of Thorns, even if it’s only a little bit because I feel the same way. People are allowed to have hated the book, dislike the book, feel meh about it, like the book, love the book, or have whatever feelings towards the book that they want, but when it’s gotten to the point where the people who enjoyed the book feel like they can’t say anything, that’s a problem. The people of this fandom are the reason that I stay out of it and don’t come near it. I create my own person bubble, and I am perfectly content there.

Me, I’m personally someone who loved the book, but that’s because I threw out any theories or expectations that I had prior to reading it. Like sure, I had them, but I knew I had to go in with an open mind, just like I do every book I read, whether it’s part of a series or not. Was the book perfect? No, what book is? (The day a book is considered perfect is the day that I win the lottery). For me, however, I was satisfied with it. I couldn’t put it down, and when I can’t put a book down, that tells me that it’s something that I will love the rest of my life. The only expectation that I had of Cassie was for her to give me a book that I enjoyed, and she gave me that. Point blank.

Nonono I'm not afraid to say I loved Chain of Thorns. Like GUYS🤌🏻 if I'll make a post where I'm complimenting this book AND ANY OF YOU DECIDE TO FUCKING SEND HATE?! - YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD🔪 I'm gonna bully you for the rest of my days, you'll regret even thinking about sending hate

The thing is: I don't feel like posting about chot AT ALL🤷🏼‍♀️ I'm trying to make edits, reblog sth interesting I find on my dash sometimes, but I refuse to go through any TSC tags, especially Chain of Thorns (cause someone can make a hate post about for example Lucie and then casually use #tmi #tid #tda. The dander is everywhere)

I thought I was strong enough to make positive content by myself, I know there are people who wanna enjoy a fun Tumblr experience just like me and I really want to give them such an opportunity. But I literally can't find any motivation or strength to start it. The hate wave was just TOO OVERWHELMING.

I was online 24/7 the first week after chot was released and it was the worst post-book online experience in my life😮‍💨 You read sth -> you open Twitter/Tumblr to see people's reaction on this scene -> you see hate. You wanna chat with your moots about certain scene you liked -> you text them -> you see "yes but you know what I hated about it-". And i was going through this for more than a week. I was hoping sth might change. But nothing changed.

It doesn't matter how much you like something, if it's surrounded by SO MUCH HATE DAILY - you simply can't be as excited as you were in the beginning ;-;

People are allowed to express their opinions, react to sth, even if their reaction is posting hate daily for the entire month☝🏻 (but if you think sending hate to the author is okay - there's sth wrong with you, you need professional help). And no one is allowed to stop them, they're not doing anything illegal! But my mistake was that I ALLOWED them to ruin MY exciting experience. So I'm not making the same mistake twice. My choice - to avoid anything that can make me feel bad.

[helenofblackthorns]

Honest question but why do you think CC should've stuck to the pre-TLH stories rather than treat them as broad strokes? I feel like that'd be incredibly limiting. I get that COT was disappointing but that's because it was messy in general. I don't think sticking to the short stories would fix its issues at all.

I mean, I don't see it as limiting?? because generally speaking if an author wrote something & then published it, you would expect anything written & published in that series/universe afterwards would follow that established canon. like you would expect a sequel to follow the canon of the original, and in my opinion its the same principle here.

I do understand that a lot of time has passed since the Midnight Heir, and some things change. but my issue is more that so much changed, characters started to become unrecognisable (James and Grace mostly). For example, Jesse's death is described differently in The Midnight Heir, and it's said he died at 16, not 17 like it is in TLH. I don't really have any strong opinions about that changing; it's relatively minor & doesn't really change much. Similarly, it's hinted James might be an alcoholic, and somewhere along the line that's obviously been changed to Matthew having problems with alcohol. Again, its minor & does still appear in some capacity in the main series. I'm okay with that.

My issue more arises from things like Grace explicitly being a warrior in TMH, a very good one at that and loyal to Tatiana. Or James' self destructive behaviours and general personality in TMH (very snarky and cruel for funnies). Both are very major things that TMH establishes, and probably two of the biggest takeaways from the short story. Yet, neither of these characterisations are followed through with in the main series. It feels more like James and Grace are two completely new characters then their TMH counterparts. (I am my mother's blade & my father was cursed whereas I? I'm damned are probably the two most well-known TMH quotes and they sum up Grace & James pretty well)

The Midnight Heir was also published as it's own book outside of the Bane Chronicles. It was written and presented as being important to The Last Hours... and then it wasn't.

Also there's definitely a difference between stuff CC published on tumblr/twitter/etc and actually published content. Stuff that she said would happen on tumblr in 2018 that didn't end up happening is disappointing, but I get that. Things change, and I can see trying to follow all of that as incredibly limiting for an author. But a fully published short story is a totally different matter. because they're canon! Tales from the Shadowhunter Academy is pretty much required reading after finishing TMI & before starting TDA, so many important things happen in it (like Simon becoming a shadowhunter & parabatai with Clary for example).

obviously a lot of freedom comes from writing a book/series from scratch with no expectations, but TLH was never going to have that freedom; it's the sequel series to a prequel series 😭. That presents certain challenges, sure, but sometimes the best art comes from limitations & working with them. at least in my experience lmao.

It might be hard to believe, but I actually enjoyed ChoT for what it was (I know I complain about it a lot 😭😭). Like I couldn't put it down, and ended up rating it 4.5 stars on storygraph. My issues are more about TLH as a whole, and missed opportunities/potential that could have made to series better. wistful thinking mostly.

[formayhem]

so.... we're just never going to hear from Jaab and Jen/Jane again or see Chot and Krit go public or know what dastardly plot the CEO had for his own son's resignation or address the point of Jeng's mom showing up to take one sip of her tea and then fuck off and also WHY IS THE COMPANY CALLED BROCCOLI HOUSE? and why wasn't there more kissing in this finale!

yeah, so, obviously everyone was right and the series just nosedives after ep 10. it had such good points and moments with the whole BL industry and "being gay is the problem" while exploiting the BL industry and the lead CHEMISTRY potential. but then they had to fit in Pat crying every 10 minutes, I guess, and didn't have room to wrap it up. (yes, Jeng cries, too, but DAMN, PAT, my boy, really tapping into that emotional release)

SIGH!!!!!!

[ladyhindsight]

Maybe it's just me, but I never found TSC villains compelling.

Most of them were either Cartoonish or uninteresting. Some of them were interesting at the beginning and lost the spark because of the pathetic job CC did in providing them proper page time.

My problem with her characters is not about them being the typical comic villains. Instead, they are soo poorly written and are only considered cunning because CC is dumb....ahem... What I mean is that they do not have enough brain cells to be considered cunning, definitely not as crafty as the writing suggests (they are vicious, yes. But that's a fundamental quality of a villain).

Valentine - the most intelligent, charming, manipulative, always 10 steps ahead - could not think that summoning an Angel (a heavenly being more powerful than he could ever be) and asking it a favour without offering any deal/ sacrifice or having a plan B was dumb? Why didn't he even think for a sec that even if Raziel doesn't know about Ithuriel's imprisonment and all, summoning an entity that can kill you easily could be risky? It's not even a last-minute plan, it's what he had been working for throughout the 1st, 2nd and 3rd books.

Also, if he has the power to capture Ithuriel, a powerful angel (as far as I know), then why not use that power to capture Raziel or why not use Ithuriel's blood to create a new race of half angels that he could control and use to wage war against other shadow hunters?

Sebastian: I never took him seriously. He was just...there obsessing over the main characters because that's what villains do. I did not feel sad (not even a little bit sad) when he died. I don't think he's as complex or as sympathetic as the fandom makes him to be.

Axel Mortmain: Seriously, do people even know TID has a Villain? I do. I'm not happy about it! Frankly speaking, Mortmain did spark my interest when he was revealed to be the bad guy at the end of the first book.

The reason for that: He's just a rich, immortal Mundane against Shadowhunters. He managed to manipulate powerful Downworlders like de Quincy. After reading all about how Mundanes are weak and inferior to the SH in TMI, I thought it would be nice to see a Mundane being a threat to the Shadowhunters. He was the only one with some level of intellect among all the villains in the TSC world. At least, that's what I thought when I finished CoA.

Of course, that interest died quickly when he was only used for causing more drama in a love triangle. CC didn't even pretend she cared about the plot or other characters.

Malcolm& Anabel are Ok-ish...I guess. Once again, neither left a strong impression on me, but I could see why someone else might like them. Or show sympathy for their backstory.

psttttt.........There's a villain called Shinyun...do you know that? Easily the most forgettable character I've ever read.

Tatiana: She had a sympathetic backstory but was a hilariously dumb villain. Once again, a character was established as cunning but only "cunning" because the other characters are stupid. The narration considers her cunning in the way Clave is considered Stupid.

Tatiana and Zara have something in common: both function as the "straw characters". Zara exists as a representation of people who criticize CC's romantic arcs. Tatiana had a motivation behind her hatred. However, from time to time, she was still used as a straw character. I never understood why she specifically said, "Herondales have dominated Shadowhunters history, there should've been more lightwoods". When she clearly hated Lightwoods too. That was oddly specific.

Belial: ugh.....where should I even begin...? Now, I didn't expect him to be a complex villain. But as THE PRINCE OF HELL, I expected a few brain cells from him. Turns out he's the dumbest Villain to ever exist. Now. I'm not going into details as you didn't finish ChoT.

It makes me wonder how TWP Villains are going to be? I'm assuming there would be a lot of Villains...I hope at least some of them are crafty, vicious and would feel like an actual threat to the characters.

Lmao, It's quite lengthy.

Anyway, Thanks for reading.

You’re definitely not alone in that. I agree 100 %. One of my favorite topics are the terrible cartoon villains that appear on the pages of these books. I once wrote in a post about Benedict Lightwood and Tatiana that the villains are characters who are reduced to few oversimplified evil traits and their villainy is over-exaggerated.

As characters they’ve essentially become a combination of both oversimplification and exaggeration, which makes them more caricatures of villains rather than believably motivated, individual characters. […] These character exhibit the degree of nastiness that primarily serves to enhance the goodness, moral superiority, and righteousness of the protagonists. Their lacking complexity is partly a result of this objective. Another part to this is the unwillingness in the narrative to accept the villain as wholly human person. They lack proper motivation or basis outside of being evil for the sake of being evil.  They have no inner life and all their time is dedicated to their evil deeds and self-serving purposes. Writing villains like these is also a result of overly simplistic understanding of certain characters for which the narrative then ignores the complexities inherent in each individual person—even the bad ones. The level of awfulness of these villains is something no sensible member of the Clave would deem as alright. They aren’t slick, charismatic, or suave enough for the readers or the Good Guys to be blinded by their malicious intentions, so why are the rest of the members of the Clave blind to it? These villains aren’t that intelligent and cunning. Their intelligence and cunning should be achieved through skillful use of literary devices, not dumbing down other characters. Having everyone go with their charisma that fools them only because the writing says so gives the other Nephilim bad contrast and is frustrating for readers to wait for them to catch up. They are villains, they are supposed to be awful doesn’t change the fact that what the writing has produced are walking talking mission statements only meant for spouting out obviously controversial and unacceptable ideologies. This comes from the habit of picking out only easy and surface level aspects to enhance their badness, like sexism, racial supremacy, and homophobia, which any sensible and empathetic reader would obviously strongly disagree with.

Valentine is only intelligent and a smooth talker because Clare just doesn’t write Clary being able to refute any of his arguments while I am doing it for her when reading. It’s all telling and showing, much like the rest of the books but it does a greater disservice to the villains. Here are some links to my other older answers about this topic if you wish to read more of the thoughts:

Sebastian’s potential at compelling villainy and him being EVIL

Thoughts on Sebastian being a villain

Thoughts on Zara being a villain

On Tatiana

A thought about Tatiana