#my lyanna meta

[bidonicart]

Lyanna Stark and ser Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy.

A scenario conceived by @seaworthit, scripted by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly and adapted into a comic by me.

where else to find me

[amber-laughs]

“ned, jon and lyanna’s body all showed up together, why don’t people know?” because that would never happen. there is no possible way that lyanna’s body wouldn’t have decomposed which means she would have to be given to the silent sisters somewhere in Dorne. It’s possible ned could have been given her bones then and there but we know he sent them directly to winterfell. Ned didn’t go straight to winterfell, he went from the tower of joy to starfall then to King’s Landing to make amends with Robert after the blow up about elia and her children. for most certain he did not bring rhaegar’s newborn son to the place where his siblings were just brutally murdered. so what happened to jon? my best guess is that wylla the wetnurse, or whoever was seeing to him, took a boat from starfall (bc grrm made a point of saying they have them) to the north. so ned, jon, and lyanna all show up at varying times probably months to weeks in between and then ned sends for catelyn and robb. it’s not something that really looks suspicious imo

[aerltarg]

thinking again about my sad boys, aegon and rhaegar, the dragonbane and the last dragon, being depressed since childhood, finding solace in their happy ladies, daenaera and lyanna. but while aegon's older siblings died, rhaegar lost his younger ones. but hey, at least aegon got to be close to his dear younger bro viserys! meanwhile, rhaegar just couldn't have a chance to build any proper relationship with his younger bro viserys, with everything between them. also to think that daeron the young dragon was aegon and daenaera's son and jon, rhaegar and lyanna's son, admired him and considered him one of his heroes... oh bless them, i love them so much

[...] As she stood before the king that Maiden’s Day, clad in pale white silk, Myrish lace, and pearls, her long hair shining in the torchlight and her cheeks flush with excitement, Daenaera was but six years old, yet so beautiful she took the breath away. The blood of Old Valyria was strong in her, as is oft seen in the sons and daughters of the seahorse; her hair was silver laced with gold, her eyes as blue as a summer sea, her skin as smooth and pale as winter snow. “She sparkled,” Mushroom says, “and when she smiled, the singers in the galley rejoiced, for they knew that here at last was a maid worthy of a song.” Daenaera’s smile transformed her face, men agreed; it was sweet and bold and mischievious, all at once. Those who saw it could not fail to think, “Here is a bright, sweet, happy little girl, the perfect antidote to the young king’s gloom.” (Fire & Blood)

When Aegon III returned her smile and said, “Thank you for coming, my lady, you look very pretty,” even Lord Unwin Peake surely must have known that the game was lost. (Fire & Blood)

[...] Hope and good feeling reigned over the Red Keep as the new year dawned. Though younger than her predecessor, Queen Daenaera was a happier child, and her sunny nature did much to lighten the king’s gloom…for a while, at the least. Aegon III was seen about the court more often than had been his wont, and even left the castle on three occasions to show his bride such sights as the city offered (though he refused to take her to the Dragonpit, where Lady Rhaena’s young dragon, Morning, made her lair). His Grace seemed to take a new interest in his studies, and Mushroom was oft summoned to entertain the king and queen at supper (“The sound of the queen’s laughter was like music to this fool, so sweet that even the king was known to smile”). (Fire & Blood)

[...] “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.” “You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested. “Not sour, no, but… there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense…” The old man hesitated again. “Say it,” she urged. “A sense…?” “…of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.” Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?” “Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” (ASOS, Daenerys IV)

“At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp.” (ADWD, The Griffin Reborn)

“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle.” (ASOS, Bran II)

“By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes.” (AFFC, Cersei V)

“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.” (ASOS, Bran II)

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. [...] the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.'” (ASOS, Bran II)

“He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.” (AGOT, Eddard I)

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature. (AGOT, Eddard IX)

“It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy.” (AGOT, Eddard X)

[viscardiac]

The pretty girl genes

My personal headcanon/fav wack theory is that the families with magic in their blood, like the Targaryen or the Stark, often have two phenotypes. The bulky phenotype and the pretty girl phenotype. I don't say this in a gendered sense, just as a general aesthetic. The pretty girl parts of the family are usually softer in aspect, and have those fairytale airs about them. The bulky parts on the other hand are the people that will scare you off based on appearance alone. It's not the sneer in their face or the wildness of their demeanor, it's just that they look like they could really fuck you up.

For the Targaryen, the pretty girl genes are dominant. You rarely ever get some dude like Maegor who was just massive all around. I mean. Aegon The Conqueror was just some anime twink. Look at this guy.

This isn't some dude you'd wanna cross the street to avoid. He's really just some twink. And most of the Targaryens are Like That. Maegor is one of the few exceptions, and I'm going to put in Maelys Blackfyre in that category too, but take at some of the most feared ones for having their heads up their asses like Aerion the Bright, or crazy Aerys.

Aerion is pretty even being punched in the face.

Aerys always looks like he's constipated anyways but he's still built like a pretty girl. You get exceptions that pop up once in a lifetime when the stars and planets align and someone manages to get the bulky genes from both sides.

Now, for the Stark, and i'm probably guessing the north in general, considering they come from a different lineage/ethnicity altogether, have some different shit going on. The Targaryen got, from outsiders to the house, andal blood (Arryn, Martell [rhoynar too, in this case]). In theory, the Dayne were of the first men, but with the andal invasion, there's likely been a lot of mix up, and the same is to be said of the Blackwood and the Hightower. The only arguably more direct line (though i doubt they haven't really married with other andal houses too) are the Baratheon. ...The Velaryon hadn't as much self imposed restrictions for marriage as the Targaryen did, so there's probably one shit ton of outside marriages for them too. I can be very wrong about all this bc it's pretty hard to track when we don't have all that much info on family trees, but honestly i don't care, this is my wack theory and you'll bear with me. The Targaryen are fairly easier to track because of the, yknow, whole incest business.

The north doesn't really get on with outsiders, though. They pretty much stay there, doing their thing, trying very hard not to stick themselves in all this court bullshit. For the Stark line, mostly only the daughters married people from the outside, meaning they don't partake in the main line, and are instead accounted for in other family trees. The women who weren't northeners are Blackwoods, who have, though likely joined with andals on the long run, a first men origin, and one Catelyn Tully, who has this same claim to her bloodline. I don't count the Manderly as outsiders, seeing as they, as the Stark and most if not all of the north, a claim to the first men origin.

Now, the Starks often seem to be the imposing, bulky type that we don't really see all that often with the Targaryen. They all mostly seem tall and imposing from the accounts we have. We'll say for this purpose, the pretty girl genes are actually recessive for them. The only two described Stark women that aren't Catelyn's Arya or Sansa are Alarra Stark, who was described by her father as "as sweet to look upon as any southron lady", and Lyanna, The Lyanna. Lyanna wasn't described to be beautiful in the same way that Elia was, being wild and slim where Elia was delicate. I am a firm believer of pretty girl Lyanna -- though, yes, i don't think she was pretty in the same manner as ladies from other ethnicities were, all pretty girls, but different brand of pretty girl. North pretty girl is wilder and all that.

And then we get to what for me is the funny part. I know, I know, not all of us like or are into the R+L=J theory, but I do, and since this is my post only my opinion matters. Whatever was the nature of the relationship between them, we get lil pretty Jon. Jon always gets described as pretty. He's prettier than daughters, he gets confused for a girl a time or two if i remember it right, and in comparison to what Robb looks like, Tully features aside, he looks way softer. This doesn't seem to have been a problem Ned Stark had, from what was told so far, to have been to pretty it became annoying.

Rhaegar, however, was never really different from what a Targaryen man was expected to look like. People already expected them to look pretty and soft and graceful and stare into the distance after something no one else could understand.

What I'm saying is that Jon managed to snag TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF PRETTY GIRL. That's why he's Like That.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

Speaking of etymological foreshadowing, the name Alayne is a variation of the French name Elaine, which itself derivated from the Greek name Helen and means “sun rays, awakening.” Not only it reinforces the symbolism Sansa has with the sun and the dawn, it also reinforces the parallels she has with her Aunt Lyanna and the Rose of Winterfell. The name Lyanna is a variation of Eliana, which either derivated from the name Helen or from the Late Latin name Aeliāna (of the sun). The author probably picked Lyanna’s name as a reference to Helen of Troy, whose abduction started a war, and to parallel her to Elia, who is also named after Helios the sun god.

[badbedforbedding]

Beauty standards in Westeros: wild beauty is beautiful?

Beauty is a huge topic in this fandom, specially in relation to some female characters. And different from the male characters, their physical traits are often put on higher ground than other aspects.

I know that we live in a society obsessed with ~aesthetics~ and with an ideal of beauty that is Eurocentric, ableist, and youthful; so it makes sense that the people (and their opinions) in this fandom reflects these ideals too.

(sigh) Anyway… Westeros is a fictional fantastical world set in a medieval era and this world too holds its sets of standards and ideals regarding beauty, and we can see how they affect the story/journey of some important characters; here I want to focus on the idea of the wild beauty associated with Arya and Lyanna Stark because it's a subjective enough word to cause a lot of confusion.

Now; suppose we all know how detrimental to women these beauty standards are, we cannot ignore that fact that they matter, they were made for a reason, and they serve a purpose in westerosi society:

First, it separates noble from commoners;

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III, Cersei compares Margaerys features to those of common people.

"Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does."

A Storm of Swords - Jon II, Jon's first impression of Ygritte.

"At a lord's court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he'd seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat."

By these recollections only, it seems like peasants have a certain look that is recognizable and sets them apart from noble people.

Without a deep analyses, we can already conclude that no Stark woman is common looking or plain. Their looks can be set apart from peasants and from among most other houses such as the Tyrell, its pretty signifying of their old noble blood:

Arya Stark - long face, gray eyes, brown hair, skinny and athletic body. Arya has the "wolf blood".

Sansa Stark - high cheekbones, blue eyes and "auburn hair lighter than her mother's".

Catelyn Stark - fair skin, blue eyes and auburn hair.

Lyanna Stark - Long face, gray eyes and brown hair. Slim body and tomboyish. Lyanna had too much of the wolf blood.

Edited: I’m not saying that peasants and common people are ugly, what I’m saying (what I deduced from reading the excerpts) is that compared to noble woman, common women are considered plain by noble people standards.

And the fact that most of these ladies are tied to one of the most traditional and old lineages in Westeros means that they don’t fit the common or plain category by Westeros beauty standards.

Second, it increases women's chance at a good marriage;

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI - Edmure and Catelyn talk about his betrothal to Roslin Frey.

"She's prettier than I dared hope." Edmure raised a hand before she could speak. "I know there are more important things, spare me the sermon, septa. Even so . . . did you see some of those other maids Frey trotted out? The one with the twitch? Was that the shaking sickness? And those twins had more craters and eruptions on their faces than Petyr Pimple. When I saw that lot, I knew Roslin would be bald and one-eyed, with Jinglebell's wits and Black Walder's temper. But she seems gentle as well as fair." He looked perplexed. "Why would the old weasel refuse to let me choose unless he meant to foist off someone hideous?"

"Your fondness for a pretty face is well known," Catelyn reminded him.

During the entire ordeal of a betrothal between a Frey daughter and Lord Edmure Tully, the latter complained about being denied of choice.

This is important because it shows exactly how it works for them: High lords who inherit castles and land can choose whichever lady they want, while ladies need to compete among themselves to try and get a good proposal, from where they can find security.

Robert Baratheon was to be Warden of the Stormlands at the time he was entertaining a marriage to Lyanna. Let's be honest now; do you think this asshole, the guy who fucks any pretty thing with a pair of tits without thinking, would settle for anything but a comely lady for a wife?

Of course there is the matter of her name and noble blood at play but just like Edmure, "his fondness for a pretty face was well known" and his feelings for Lyanna too:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

Edited: I’m not even questioning the physical characteristics that women need to have to be seen as beautiful. I think Edmure Tully’s speech at the quote I picked says a lot already, but in short: the preference that these privileged men show towards certain ladies is enough to know what is the standard held by Westeros society as a whole.

At last and most important, it reinforces the gender roles assigned to woman:

This is not supposed to be a critic to any of the women mentioned or their ways, but a critic of the people who praise certain traits and vilify others less soft ones.

About Elia:

"...the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty."

"Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit."

About Margaery:

"The girl no older than Robb, very pretty, with a doe's soft eyes and a mane of curling brown hair that fell about her shoulders in lazy ringlets. Her smile was shy and sweet."

About Sansa:

"Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces."

Gentle, delicate, sweet, soft-spoken and other variants of these adjectives are used to describe these ladies in particular when mentioning their beauty. All these adjectives are found at the appearance section of their pages on Wiki of westeros.

Westerosy woman have little to no say in the decisions regarding their own lives, noble women are always at the mercy of a father, husband, or another man. They are raised to become two things only: a wife and a mother and again gentle, delicate, sweet, soft-spoken are words often related to motherhood and romance.

Wild, willful, stubborn and outspoken are completely different things from gentle, delicate, sweet and soft-spoken. In fact, they are opposite, and that's where the concept of "Wild beauty" draws so much confusion.

Edited: I’ve seen people interpret wild as unkept, savage, plain and/or ugly. The word in itself is not typically used to refer to one’s appearance, but to landscape or actions. But when the wild beauty idea come in George’s text is always to highlight Lyanna/Arya’s different look as well as character compared to southern ladies.

To use someone else’s perspective that is not their loving brother/father (since this means he is biased and unreliable as a narrator, *sarcasm*):

In The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

“The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.”

The juxtaposition of the descriptors Wild x Delicate makes the case stronger when we remember that the delicate quality that Elia had comes from her frail and fragile health.

In conclusion:

Lyanna Stark was a beautiful woman with beautiful attributes, her beauty was well known and no one could deny. On the other hand, she lacked the womanly shape desired from most men and had too much force of will to be accepted by the southern court.

Arya Stark is a girl still growing into her features, her looks, and personality are similar to her aunt's even as a young girl. It's not hard to see that she will become as beautiful as Lyanna was said to be.

The wild beauty is in their physical traits but something else too, more ethereal and impalpable, the wolf blood.

Their wild beauty it's a set of all that Westeros holds as beautiful, added to what they fear the most: a strong, willed mind.

That's it, if anyone read so far: thank you for your patience. I am incapable of being brief. I wrote this with my own memory and research, so if I missed something, feel free to add to it. Also, if you are one of those stans who complain about others calling Arya beautiful: fuck you.

[beyond-far-horizons]

Ilyena - an analysis of The Wheel of Time’s Lost Lenore

Part One - Who was Ilyena and why does she matter?

I’ve loved Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time series for over twenty-five years for many reasons, and it’s famous for its vast range of characters. But increasingly I keep being drawn back to one minor character who many could dismiss as a cliché, even if she wasn’t the perfect example of a Lost Lenore. So I’ve decided to write a meta on Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar/ Ilyena Therin Moerelle to explore her often overlooked significance and why other major writing decisions in the books likely led to her ambiguous place in the narrative and in fans’ reception of her.

Spoilers for the whole series abound.

Ilyena was the beloved wife of Lews Therin Telamon - the primary hero/destroyer figure of the previous Age. She was murdered by him, along with all their family and friends, as a result of the madness inflicted on him after his infamous Sealing of the Dark One’s Prison. This event occurs in the series’ very first prologue, and not only heralds the terrible transformation the world of the books undergoes for the next three thousand years, but it also haunts Lews Therin’s reincarnation - the Dragon Reborn - for most of the current story in various ways. 

Despite Ilyena being a very minor character, I think I love her partly because Lews Therin - our tragic hero - does, and her harrowing death at the hands of her beloved (along with her children and loved ones) is what starts off this incredible tale. This tragedy permeates through the series - not just in the horror that the Dragon and his reincarnation invoke in people because of this act, but because it sets the tone for the fate of all channelling men - if you channel saidin you will go mad, and likely kill all you love before you die rotting. 

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon. (from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora, The Breaking of the World. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

The Hook

I know it sounds crazy (pardon the pun), but it’s this grim fate that is such a continuing hook for me - a hero is needed to save the world, but is destined to repeat this terrible, unjust price as a consequence. It’s the juxtaposition of power and glory mixed with madness and death that’s always fascinated me with The Wheel of Time over all other series, especially as Jordan is able to convey the horror without gratuitousness and with a sense of potential hope. The fact that, as someone said on a forum years ago, the Dragon Reborn and his Asha’man must face this fate to do their duty, makes their resolve to so truly heroic. As a plot device and a magic system consequence, it gives instant high emotional stakes, especially combined with the seductive, addictive power of saidin thatmakes madness inevitable. What sacrifices did these unfortunate men and their families make over three thousand years because they couldn’t stop channelling? How is our protagonist Rand going to overcome this? What will happen now that channelling men trained as weapons are once again being unleashed on the world? And so on…

But also what’s compelling is the nature of reincarnation in these books - the very nature of reality means you might have a destiny, your fate could be bound together with your loved ones and, critically, that there may be second chances to put things right. Ironically, this last part is central to Ilyena and the theme of the whole series, but how it’s executed is a whole other matter. But more on that later… 

Restorative Justice

And partly I’m fascinated with Ilyena because we know so little about her. I always want to give female characters their due and in a lot of ways The Wheel of Time does this, but not so much with Ilyena. She’s critical to our hero and the story - both as a dire warning and as an agonising guilt - but we never even hear her speak. This is despite the fact her husband (and murderer) becomes a constant voice in Rand’s head, literally driving him insane with memories and whimperings about her. We don’t know what Ilyena did for a living or even in text if she was Aes Sedai. She’s a classic example of both the ‘Stuffed in the Fridge’ trope and the ‘Lost Lenore’ trope, and it infuriates me that she means so much to a saga that has huge numbers of developed female characters with agency, achievements and backstory, yet we never get to hear hers. Everything we know about Ilyena is used to reinforce Lews Therin’s (and therefore Rand’s) pain in the narrative. She is a tragic figure, a mere cipher for suffering, yet she has so much potential.

So far, so very much like many older fantasy series with male authors, yet as previously stated, this isn’t usual for Jordan, which is one of the reasons I fell in love with the books to begin with.

Yet in a series that is founded on reincarnation, destiny and foreshadowing, Ilyena is never explicitly reincarnated and reunited with her love Lews Therin nor is her vaguely alluded to past with major villains Mierin/Lanfear and Barid Bel Medar/Demandred ever elaborated upon. Her children too are never really discussed; the series is instead diluted by an ever-widening array of characters and their petty politics (in my view). It’s widely considered that from Books 7/8 onwards the series’ loses its focus, with fans divided on whether it regains this in Book 11, in the Sanderson co-written final three, or at all. Author Robert Jordan was suffering with illness and pressure and also wanted to explore themes like miscommunication and myriad POVs on the end-times. It’s his series and I have to respect that, but I can’t help feeling that the books I fell in love with - a series with Ilyena and her tragedy at its heart - would have been better served by a tighter focus and a better resolution for her and the event that sparked everything. I also think Jordan’s insistence on Rand’s three lovers derailed Ilyena’s significance in the story in ways I’ll discuss later.

What We Know

So what do we actually know about Ilyena? Below I’ll bullet-point everything I’ve been able to tease about her from the main series, adjacent books like The Wheel of Time Companion, The World of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time and The Origins of the Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan’s notes, and his answers recorded on the Theoryland site.

Name. Her full maiden name was Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar. There isn’t an Old Tongue meaning given, although someone once suggested ‘Dalisar’ could mean ‘woman of clocks’ (aka something to do with time) from ‘dali’ - clock and ‘sar’ - she/woman.

Married Name. Her name was changed upon marriage to Ilyena Therin Moerelle, which seems like a weird anachronism for the egalitarian Age of Legends, especially as her husband’s surname seems to replace her prized Third Name. Some fans have reasoned that ‘Moerelle’ is therefore her Third Name, but that would go against the naming format Jordan used since he confirmed that ‘Telamon’ is Lews Therin’s Third Name. Therefore, it stands to reason ‘Dalisar’ is Ilyena’s. I personally think this is a slip-up from Jordan’s unconscious, old fashioned views, so I always call her by her maiden name.

Career/Social Status. She was brilliant and devoted enough to have gained the vaunted Third Name - the Second Age’s highest honour. Third Names were bestowed as a recognition for an individual’s exemplary service to wider society and, although very difficult to achieve, could be gained in many fields.

Appearance. Her description varies a little as she is often described as ‘golden-haired’ or, more derogatorily, as a ‘pale-haired milksop’ or ‘yellow-haired trollop’ by her rival Lanfear. But Rand via Lews Therin’s memories recalls she had ‘…a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne’s’, meaning she had red-gold hair (whatever that means!).

‘Sunhair’. Ilyena’s hair is considered so beautiful it earns her a common epithet ‘Sunhair’, which even arch-villain Ishamael uses.

Milksop? Lanfear’s insult of ‘milksop’, although it can’t be taken as accurate due to her bias, could also indicate an emotional softness or compassion. ‘Milksop’ is an old fashioned insult that implies weakness or frailness

Beauty. She is often described as pretty or beautiful and occasionally linked to Elayne in those terms.

Romantic Muse. Ilyena’s charms were enough to make two of the most acclaimed men of the Second Age fall for her. Lews Therin is so deeply in love with her that he utters phrases like ‘I will never forget Ilyena, not if all the world burns!’ and ‘Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.’ He also angrily asserts that Demandred (formerly Barid Bel Medar) wanted Ilyena.

Love Triangle. Unfortunately (like everything to do with Ilyena) we learn next to nothing about this love triangle. It could just be a literary device to underline poor Barid Bel losing out to his rival yet again. We don’t know if Ilyena felt anything for the man who was ‘almost’ her husband’s equal in every way, and one of his foremost generals before defecting. Demandred’s only thought on the matter comes from Brandon Sanderson’s interpretation, so we don’t know how accurate that is to Jordan’s original vision. However, Demandred reflects that ‘Lews Therin had taken Ilyena’ as the final point in Lews Therin’s list of accomplishments over him. This implies that both men had been in competition over her affections, and possibly that Barid Bel had known Ilyena before Lews Therin and had even been romantically involved with her. Or possibly that is just how the entitled Forsaken viewed it, thinking of her as a possession worthy of him that his rival ‘stole’, similar to Lanfear with Ilyena’s husband. In Sanderson’s more tragic depiction, this event is partially implied to have damaged Barid Bel’s capacity for romantic love, despite finding himself drawn to the beautiful Shendla. But this new affection doesn’t stop him from threatening to enslave and assault Rand’s lovers for revenge - a promise he tells Leane to deliver to Rand in the final book A Memory of Light. We can imagine he might have longed to subject Ilyena to this fate had he ever captured her in the War of Power, especially given his history of horrifically over-reacting to imagined slights.

Aes Sedai? We don’t know what occupation Ilyena had either during the Age of Legends or the War of Power, or in text that she could channel. But we can infer that she was Aes Sedai because, as per The World of the Wheel of Time book, Lews Therin and she had a relationship for at least sixty years before her death and she isn’t described as showing any signs of age at her death. Even with the longer life spans of ordinary citizens during that time, that would still mean she would have met him when she was very young and he into his third century, which seems creepy and inappropriate. I wasn’t sure if she was Aes Sedai, but it seems very likely and would make her a better match as a life partner for Lews Therin. There is also a possible confirmation from RJ at a North Virginia signing that she was, which is also noted on Theoryland - https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/c/DrJxMGi4LF8/m/Ww1QBLHn8F4J.

Meeting her soulmate. Lews Therin met her long after his break-up with the ambitious Mierin/Lanfear, counter to Lanfear’s claim that Ilyena ‘stole’ him. Lanfear continues to blame Ilyena for her ‘loss’, and transfers her jealousy on to any woman that appears to be a love rival. Her possessiveness reaches murderous levels as she kills innocent bystanders, as well as trying to kill Rand and Aviendha in the current timeline. It’s unclear what Ilyena herself made of all of this in her own time.

Marriage and Rivalry. Lews Therin and Ilyena married about fifty years into the Collapse and approximately fifty years before the true War of Power. Lanfear made several blatant public approaches, and likely a number of secret ones, to regain Lews Therin’s affections during this time. She also tried to disrupt their wedding ceremony. 

Temper. Lews Therin said that ‘Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she…’ implying that, while Ilyena could become angry or feisty, she wasn’t unjust or childish about it like Egwene was being when this memory surfaced. In the first prologue, he also mentioned to Ishamael that she will give him [Lews Therin] ‘the rough side of her tongue’ if she thinks he is keeping a guest from her.

Woman Trouble? The Heroes of the Horn in Book 2 imply that Lews Therin (the Dragon Soul) always chooses women who cause him trouble in some way. Given that they call him Lews Therin and Ilyena was Lews Therin’s true love in that lifetime, we might wonder what trouble she caused him. Was their courtship difficult? Was she captured like Egwene was at one point? Was she actually as feisty as someone like Aviendha or Nynaeve? Perhaps someone as arrogant as Lews Therin was known to be needed a woman that brought him down to earth?

Motherhood. She had at least four children (boys and girls) with her husband before her death and some were young enough to still be playing with toys at the time of their unfortunate demise. It seems a little strange that this couple would have young children given they were fighting an apocalyptic war with ultimate evil, but this could be one of those writing conflicts one has when world-building concepts hit plot logic. Either that or it could indicate Ilyena and Lews Therin wanted to be parents and continued to have hope in their world enough to do so.

Social Savy. Lews Therin remarks even in his madness to Ishamael that Ilyena loves conversation and often asks people many questions about themselves. He also says that she will get angry with him if she thinks he is hiding a guest from her. This indicates a warm, gregarious personality that enjoys company and entertaining, and also someone that is curious about people and the world in general.

The Voice? Lews Therin asks Ishamael if he has the Voice (i.e the Songs of Growing), that it will soon be time for the Singing and that in his and Ilyena’s home everyone is invited to take part. This could just be ‘first book syndrome’, but we get subtle hints through the series (and discussed further on The Thirteen Depository blog) that the Singing might be more more sacred that just Tree Singing ( i.e food production) and it’s tied up with the Dragon’s role as Champion of the Light and being ‘One with the Land’. I surmise that the Singing is about affirming the Pattern and the Light as well as growing food and Ilyena is implied to have the Voice, although that is just conjecture on my part. The mention of it does link with her and Lews Therin running a welcoming, life-affirming home, however.

Palatial Living. She and Lews Therin live in a sumptuous palace filled with masterworks of art and furniture inlaid with ivory and gold. It’s described both in the prologue to The Eye of the World and in a brief comparison to Caemlyn’s palace in Book 5.

True and Enduring Love. She and her husband had a loving marriage shown both by tragic quotes like: ’And time after time he [Rand/Lews Therin] faced a beautiful golden-haired woman, watched love turn to terror on her face. Part of him knew her. Part of him wanted to save her, from the Dark One, from any harm, from what he himself was about to do…’ Their love is also demonstrated by the depths of mourning, suicidal yearnings and apocalyptic tendencies the Lews Therin aspect of Rand expresses in his head at her loss. Even under a life threatening attack from Lanfear in The Fires of Heaven ‘Lews Therin’ affirms to Lanfear ‘“I was never yours, Mierin. I will always belong to Ilyena”’ and moments later on the point of near death ‘Ilyena, ever and always my heart.’

Never Forgotten/Source of Agony. Ilyena’s name appears on Rand’s ‘List of Women’ who have died for him, and her murder is very likely the reason for its existence, along with his Two Rivers upbringing. This list is moral ‘red line’ Rand cleaves to for his humanity, but also serves as a terrible tool he uses to harrow and harden himself emotionally as his burdens increase.

History Repeats Itself. Rand being forced to strangle his lover Min by the Forsaken Semirhage is a direct echo of Ilyena’s murder, worsened this time by their Warder bond and he being (mostly) sane, but enslaved.

Reborn again? The major turning point in Rand’s later character arc, when he is at his lowest point and contemplating destroying the world with the male Choedan Kal, comes when he realises that Ilyena (like himself) might also be reborn. His sin of killing her and all his other mistakes might be made right by the repeated opportunities offered by the turnings of the Wheel. The chapter in The Gathering Storm is called ‘Veins of Gold’ which refers both to the bonds of love he feels for his three lovers and the realisation that love and the opportunity to do better is the reason the world and the Wheel exist. With this, he is able to integrate Lews Therin’s memories/alter personality at last, and come to terms with Ilyena’s death and with his role as saviour/destroyer. 

First Love. According to Sanderson’s version, Lews Therin ‘“…did not know what love was. Centuries of life, and I never discovered it until I met her [Ilyena].”’

Cherished Memory. After his epiphany, Rand/Lews Therin now sees his love for Ilyena ‘like a glowing crystal, set upon a shelf and admired.’ 

Mythical Roots. The excellent fan scholar Linda Taglieri in the Thirteen Depository blog says: ‘Ilyena is similar to the Greek personal name Iliana, a variant of Helen, meaning ‘bright’ or ‘shining light’. Ilyena was known as Sunhair. Golden-haired Elayne’s name is also a variant of Helen, and is a hint that she may be Ilyena reborn. Morelle is a surname and Dalisar is in Afghanistan.’ 

The Face that Launched a Thousand Ships. I’d add that the ‘shining light’ could refer to Ilyena’s famous hair or her sunny personality. The name Helen also links to the Illiad’s famous Helen of Troy - ‘the face that launched a thousand ships, and burnt the topless towers of Ilium’, and who was a part of notable love battles such as between her husband King Menelaus and Prince Paris of Troy. Ilyena, of course, was caught between the bitter rivalry of Lews Therin and Barid Bel Medar whose armies ripped apart vast areas of the world. Jordan also used the city/country of Ilian as a reference to Troy (along with Cairhien’s topless towers) whose name is Greek is Ilion  and in Latin ‘Ilium’), both of which sound like Ilyena.

Manner of Death. Ilyena and her family’s deaths are inspired by the ancient Greek myth of Heracles (Roman name ‘Hercules’) who was driven mad by his jealous step-mother Hera - Queen of the Gods. In his madness, Heracles kills his wife and children and in some versions of the story must accomplish his famous Labours to atone for the crime.

Links with a Goddess. In the new book The Origins of the Wheel of Time, author and academic Michael Livingston says Ilyena’s name comes from the Mesopotamian goddess of fertility and power Inanna, who was also associated with the planet Venus, the morning star (linking to Lews Therin whose mythological references include Lucifer as the Morning star and Lightbringer.) I’m not sure whether Livingston, who has access to Jordan’s notes, gleaned this information from them or from his own surmises about Jordan’s mythological inspirations. Inanna is famous for her descent into the Underworld in a way like Ilyena is (in)famous for her own descent into death.

And this is about all (as far as my obsessed fan gleanings can divine) that we get! If anyone can add more, please let me know in the comments/notes.

So here we have a picture of a what is essentially a traditionally ‘perfect’ woman - she’s beautiful, talented, loving, sociable and a good homemaker. She also seems innocent and pure, especially compared to the dangerously seductive Lanfear (invoking the Betty vs Veronica trope), but Lews Therin mentions ‘the rough side of her tongue’ twice and Jordan rarely wrote heroines that weren’t feisty and independent. Whether we see Ilyena as the ‘perfect’ woman or not doesn’t really matter, especially as that is subjective; what interests me most (aside from her mystery) is the love between her and her husband that is at the core of their bond. That, and the horror and trauma that resounds throughout the story as a result of that love’s betrayal and loss. 

But for me and others, this central theme is not satisfactorily resolved. The main question about Ilyena on fan sites like Reddit and Dragonmount is whether she was reincarnated, and, if so, who is she? There’s a common theory her soul was ‘split’ by the trauma of her demise, essentially so she could be Rand’s three lovers. This has confirmed not to be true, although interestingly in Jordan’s early notes Rand would have to undergo trials in another realm to reconstitute his lover’s mind, body and soul after an assault/torment at the hands of one of the Forsaken. There is also a common consensus that Elayne is Ilyena reborn given their superficial similarities: lovers of the Dragon soul with golden/red-gold hair, pale skin and blue eyes and a similar name. But this is never confirmed either in story or by the writing/editorial team. Aviendha and Elmindreda (Min) also sound similar (ish) to Ilyena, and Rand himself is noted by Lanfear to look nothing like his previous incarnation except his height. This indicates that a similar body gives little true indication to the soul within. 

To me, these repeated fan questions highlight a latent dissatisfaction with what we are given. Fans shouldn’t be asking who Ilyena is reborn as, after fourteen doorstopper books on a series whose main theme is reincarnation and second chances. It also saddens me that this leads to some fans being resigned to Ilyena’s irrelevance in this turning of the Wheel, saying that she was ‘just’ the Dragon’s love in the previous life. The kind of true love someone like Lews Therin/the Dragon has, the kind we and Rand have to hear about across nine books, strikes me as a love of many lifetimes, not just one. Writing about it this way certainly sets up a narrative promise that that is the case. I might be a complete romantic, but the subject of the line ‘I will never forget Ilyena, not if all the world burns!’ deserves a little better resolution than ‘If I live again, then she might as well!’

So instead of true lovers torn apart by fate and reunited once more, who did Jordan replace Ilyena with and how might this have affected how we view her and the story in retrospect? Find out in Part Two!

______________________________________________________________

Image Credits: 1st Image is my art of Ilyena, 2nd, 3rd and final images comes from the Eye of the World graphic novel adapted by Chuck Nixon and illustrated by Chase Conley (and well worth checking out, especially for an adorable Rand and a handsome yet unhinged Ishamael, even if he is lacking in thigh-high boots), the Demandred painting is by Ariel Burgess, the photos of red-gold hair from a Wella blog, the Horn of Valere icon comes from RJ's books and the painting of Helen of Troy is by Pre-Raphaelite artist Everlyn De Morgan.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

literally so done with rhaegar antis at this point. we know practically nothing about this character besides all the good things other characters say about him and the fact that robert baratheon hates him and says things about rhaegar that ned disagrees with. and robert baratheon is a pos so being hated by him only does favors for rhaegar’s character imo.

but somehow all these characters who think well of rhaegar are just lying. even though almost all of the characters who have spoken/thought well of rhaegar come from different families and have different allegiances. make it make sense. explain it to me like i’m five. what do jamie and ned have to gain by thinking positively about rhaegar? what about jorah? and barristan?

seriously. stop with the “prophecy obsessed freak” and the “rhaegar was mad” bs. none of this is supported in the books.

for 1) the prophecy is real! this is a fantasy series! and it’s very likely that jon snow (his likely son) is one of the azor ahai/prince that was promised figures! the other completely certain azor ahai figure is his own sister! so yes this prophecy seems to be centered around rhaegar’s family.

2) rhaegar being “mad” is not supported whatsoever. prophecies and magic are very real in asoiaf. so believing/trying to figure out prophecies is not an act of a madman. if anything, we should praise rhaegar for having the foresight to be actively concerned about this world ending threat! he was right. and one mention, if not the first mention, of the song of ice and fire comes from a vision in the house of the undying… from rhaegar. please remember what the title of this series is…

now, it is fair to criticize rhaegar for how he treated elia at the tourney at harrenhall. he was wrong there and that was a terrible thing to do to elia. however, saying that rhaegar was awful to elia throughout their whole marriage is not supported. and saying that rhaegar was awful to his children is not supported at all.

also, getting angry at a fictional character for needing a son to secure the succession to the throne is hilarious, especially since it was necessary for not just rhaegar, but also for elia to secure their own positions at court. they both needed a male heir, but elia needed to have a son more than rhaegar to secure her position. so why are people so mad that rhaegar and elia had aegon? andal tradition says that a son comes before a daughter and a daughter before an uncle… but aerys had viserys to threaten rhaegar with because aerys was king and had the power to change the succession. having aegon was very important for both rhaegar and elias futures and protected rhaenys position as well. just look at what happened to alys karstark when all of her male brothers were gone. she was almost usurped by her uncle. do you really think aerys would let the throne pass to a girl? aerys??

anyways, we don’t know enough about rhaegar and elias relationship to actually make any concrete statements about them, but, from danys house of the undying vision of rhaegar and (likely) elia, their relationship seemed fine and they seemed open with each other. not every marriage of duty ends in nedcat and five kids, but their marriage was clearly far from the robert and cersei nightmare.

another thing rhaegar antis love to harp about is how he is a pedophile. i’m literally so sick of it. rhaegar, someone who seemingly struggled with some form of depression, finally found some joy outside of a marriage of duty. the author himself called rhaegar a love struck prince. ned never thinks ill of rhaegar, even though if the stories robert baratheon would have us believe were true then ned would be the first character who thinks rhaegar is some sort of monster. but ned doesn’t. back to the pedo argument… anyways i have issues with the age gap as well. but i know where to lay my criticism. with george. he’s weird about ages and it pisses me off. however, i won’t let this change the way i see a character, especially since westeros doesn’t have any age of consent laws.

god just criticize george already.

but to be clear, rhaegar, a tragic character who died trying to protect his family, who’s daughter hid underneath his bed for protection, is not some monster. he was born in grief, lived in grief, found some joy, and died whispering the name of the woman he loved. that’s sad. and it’s horrible that he’s blamed for his family’s deaths even though he fought and died trying to protect them. and then robert baratheon sat on his throne and drunk and whored the realm into debt. thank you mr. boar. and good riddance. cersei slayed with this one.

now if you want to blame someone for the war and what came after, then blame aerys for his cruelty. blame brandon for his foolishness. blame robert for his warmongering. blame tywin for his monstrous actions. blame gregor and amory for their terrible violence.

stop blaming the guy who died trying to protect his loved ones.

and tbh, we literally have so little knowledge of what happened before the rebellion and after harrenhall. we just don’t know what happened between rhaegar and lyanna besides what george has told us and whatever small scraps we get in the book. we don’t know if it was a rash decision or if there was some plan in place when rhaegar and lyanna ran off. we just don’t know.

so please stop treating your headcanons like canon facts. especially when your headcanon isn’t supported anywhere in the books! it’s so tiring to see! i get it! you hate this character! whatever! but stop acting like what you’re saying is canon!

rhaegar is simply a ghost haunting the narrative. but his legacy lives on in dany and (likely) jon. and both of them are saviors fighting the good fight. and based on the descriptions we have of rhaegar, i can say that he’s likely very proud of his sister and son.

[first-of-her-nxme]

Why the dress from the maiden of the tree is made of yellow silk? Shouldn't it be black or red if the lord of the song is a Targaryen prince?

It wouldn't be very subtle, would it?

Also, as far as I remember, a bride doesn't have to wear her husbands colors. During a wedding ceremony, husband puts on his cloak over bride's shoulders to show that he will protect her from now on. Of course, the song doesn't go into all details of wedding customs.

Yellow and golden are used interchangeably to describe something made of gold or resembling gold. It could be fabric, hair, sun and so on and so forth. Gold is a universal symbol of the crown. Take a look at these lines:

"I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

And on your head a crown"

It's about royal wedding and coronation.

I think it's the song Rhaegar wrote after he had met the maiden of the tree/the Knight of the Laughing Tree/Lyanna and fell in love with her. He might have disguised their story as the song of Duncan Targaryen and Jenny of Oldstones and sang it in Harrenhal. Duncan had to give up the crown to marry Jenny and he did so. Rhaegar was the crown prince and already married with children so he would have had to give up everything for Lya.

The song ends with the girl dressing up as a tree and luring the man to join her. Both Stark girls, Lyanna and Arya, were dressed up as trees. Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree in Harrenhal and Arya wore the acorn dress when Tom played the song in Acorn Hall. In Westeros, weirwood trees and oaks are used as the heart trees. The heart trees are vessels for the souls of those marked by the gods. They have the faces carved on their trunks so the gods can look through them. So this part of the song really means that the prince can't crown his beloved lady and live the life he has dreamed for both of them. They can only be together in the afterlife when their souls will enter this magical realm of the Old Gods.

I think it might have been the song that made Lyanna cry.

Thank you for the question.

[thewingedwolf]

“Aegon called his dream ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’ This secret, it’s been passed from king to heir since Aegon’s time. And now you must promise to keep it. And to carry it. Promise me, Rhaenyra. Promise me.”

A lot has been said about this so i won’t reiterate. i will say that what stood out to me was the darkness of the scene, and of course Ramin’s wailing dragon strings in the background playing just as Rickon Stark pledges his loyalty. Knowing Cregan will honor his house’s word and stand with the blacks, knowing Jon will be born (whatever the exact context of how they get there is) of a Targaryen and Stark - a little bit of a musical and visual nod, almost, to what comes next. Ramin, I would die for you lmao. But on rewatch, what immediately came to mind during this scene was Ned and Lyanna.

“He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing.

Ned’s grief being this monster that still consumes his every thought even now 14 ish years after Lyanna has died just gets me. I think why I am so fond of Ned and Lyanna is bc GRRM really understands the sort of heavy beast that losing a sibling is, and he writes it very well.

But - GRRM had a big hand in the pilot right? A man as obsessively detailed as him would surely notice he’s phrased this “Promise me (beloved relative), promise me.” pattern considering how often Ned’s promise to Lyanna is echoed throughout the first book. But maybe not! It’s not like he hasn’t had some continuity errors before right, and the show and the books Will be different, tho we don’t know in what exact ways yet. EXCEPT THEN WHEN ROBERT IS DYING:

“Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.”

“I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed.

“The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.”

the parallel stuck in my head. Viserys, grieving and alone and afraid, making Rhaenyra promise to always understand that the long night is coming and they must be ready. Ned, grieving and alone and afraid, first promising something to Lyanna, then promising to protect a Targaryen child and Robert’s son. Clearly, there is the parallel here that Lyanna likely asked Ned to protect her own targ baby, and that parallel is definitely there for that reason at least. But we all wonder what exactly Rhaegar said to convince Lyanna to leave everything she knew behind to escape a betrothal that makes her feel trapped…only to run off with a married man and become literally trapped in the Tower of Joy. But we know Rhaegar knew at least a bit of the song of ice and fire, in whatever way it exists in the books (seems likely Aegon did have a Dream, considering GRRM’s hand in the pilot, the Targaryen propensity for prophetic dreams, and a bunch of other little clues that seem to point towards Aegon conquering the realm for a reason not solely related to power. but also, it’s not canon until it’s canon so i’m aware there’s a chance this prophecy plays out differently in the books). But i’m reminded of what Aemon knew of the prophecy and his own relationship with Rhaegar:

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

“Barth saw the truth…the language misled us all” clearly Aemon is talking of more than just him and Rhaegar shooting the shit when he includes Septon Barth and a general “us.” He’s discussing knowledge that was known and passed down by someone for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.

And Dany’s dream of her brother Rhaegar sitting with Elia after Aegon has born:

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Obviously that prophetic line (if it exists in the book in the same or a similar way) is broken at some point. Maybe it’s the dance of the dragons, maybe it’s the sudden death of nearly all the Targaryens at the Tragedy of Summerhall, maybe it’s Robert’s Rebellion.

What’s clear is that Aemon knew about the prophecy despite never being an officially named heir, only asked to be one at a few points, while Daemon and Aegon II (in the show) are never told of the prophecy because Viserys never considered either a real heir. What’s clear is whatever it is Aemon and Rhaegar knew, it was not something that was passed onto Dany. And also clear is that Rhaegar had no issues running his mouth about this song of ice and fire, because Aemon knows, and Dany sees him discuss it briefly with Elia, while the show makes a point to have Viserys discuss his Dream of Aegon II being crowned as Rhaenys escapes on Meleys, but not bring up Aegon the Conquerer’s Dream until he’s completely alone with Rhaenyra and naming her as his heir.

But “Promise me, Rhaenyra, promise me” in a dark room filled with candles said after Aemma is murdered in the birthing bed, and “Promise me, Ned, promise me” alone in the Tower of Joy in a room that smells of blood and roses just as Lyanna is dying after something leads her to her too early death in a birthing bed.

…so what if Rhaegar told Lyanna at least a little? Telling the terrified 15/16 year old that she’s been chosen to have a baby that will help to unite the realm and save it from the Long Night, something Lyanna knows is a very dangerous threat because she’s of the North, that he’ll take care of her, of the baby, that her fate is something so much bigger than marrying her brother’s slutty best friend and being his miserable, lonely wife. Does Lyanna attempt to say something to Ned as she’s dying or has she stopped believing after the murders of her father and brother, the deaths of Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon and Rhaenys? Does it slip her mind, in her fear of her own impending death and the threat to her son? Maybe, maybe do Lyanna’s last words give a hint that will lead to Jon or Bran or Sam or Dany or whoever the hell piecing together the entire prophecy? Or am i going absolutely crazy waiting for the winds of winter which will probably never be released anyway lmao

[babybells123]

A compilation of my favourite Jonsa metas <3

Pre/post-series source material:

Jonnel 'One Eye' Stark x Sansa Stark (original post).

Some more words on Jonnel and Sansa:

The Black Prince With The White Guardian (aka as the best Ashford Tourney analysis ever.)

More Ashford Tourney (dispelling anti-arguments):

Ashford champions:

The original outline & GRRM's red-haired love interests:

The Pact of Ice and Fire:

Sansa Stark/Queen Alysanne parallels:

A mini-compilation of historical pairings/couples from the songs & Jon and Sansa:

Literary/artistic influences:

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn & Jon and Sansa:

The human heart in conflict with itself:

Lord Byron & Jon and Sansa:

Jon Snow is a Byronic hero:

Sansa Stark & the Pre-Raphaelites:

The incest motif in conjunction with thematic influence:

Romanticism:

Book foreshadowing & clues:

A Time for Wolves (the case for Jon and Sansa). (2013)

The parallel journey of Jon Snow and Sansa Stark:

A compilation of every book hint, from the start of the series:

Chapter transitioning:

Jon 'One Eye' Snow & Sansa Stark.

Restoring Winterfell:

Jon is never far from Sansa's suitors.

If I give him sons he may come to love me/If I wanted her love she might give me children: (or the domestic desire):

Lyanna/Sansa parallels:

Jon Snow/Prince Aemon the Dragonknight parallels:

Sansa Stark/Queen Naerys parallels:

Roses & Jonsa (and hope):

Jon/Waymar Royce:

Sansa.looked.radiant.

The Girl in Grey theory:

Additional Girl in Grey references:

More Girl in Grey:

The 'willowy creature' and repressive desires: (aka Jon Snow is a romantic.)

Sansa Stark & Targaryen imagery:

Sansa Stark & the white cloak:

Jon Snow, Sansa Stark & Winterfell:

Jon Snow is the silent, unconscious answer to Sansa's prayers:

Jon’s foils:

Anvilicious desires:

AFFC Alayne II (Arriving at Snow and leaving behind Stone) - chapter analysis.

TWOW Alayne I: Who she was, Who matters, and Who it will be: - chapter analysis.

Allusions to Jon through Sansa's dance partners in TWOW:

Dance with me anon (Jon ADWD):

A hero from the songs:

There are no heroes/Edd, fetch me a block:

Sansa, Jon & sweetness:

A sight so lovely & dark honey hair:

A ghost wolf, big as mountains:

An enchantment:

Blood superiority & how Jon and Sansa differ from the rest:

Of Ghostly Silences, Bats, Brimstone and a Ghost Wolf, Big as Mountains.

Some thoughts on Jon and Sansa:

Extra tidbits:

The Jonsa compendium (aka the holy website that compiles all the major evidence)

Kissing cousins (google doc):

Why Jon and Sansa are so uniquely compelling.

Game of Thrones hints written by the man himself - (The Bear and the Maiden fair):

Wish fulfilment (gif):

Visuals: The wolves will come again.

The original outline & how Jon and Sansa encapsulate hope and literary subversion: (my meta).

GRRM's use of foreshadowing:

Fandom stupidity regarding foreshadowing:

Textual analysis:

Why Jon and Sansa are so intriguing: (my meta).

GRRM about Jonsa:

[allyriadayne]

could you talk more about the daynes post robert's rebellion?

SURE

first of, this is mostly my hcs, speculations and a mix of things i must have read back when there was the height of asoiaf meta in 2013 because there is almost nothing about the daynes post robert's rebellion. so bear with me.

just to set the scene, the members of house dayne left after the mess of the rebellion were the unnamed older brother of ashara and arthur, the lord and father of edric; allyria the youngest sister that i headcanon to be much younger than her older siblings seeing as she is betrothed to beric dondarrion who is was in his twenties per agot so i don't think the marriage would've occurred if allyria was in her middle thirties or forties if she was closer to ashara and arthur; edric, twelve years old, beric's loyal squire; and gerold aka darkstar head of high hermitage, also in his twenties? around arianne's age.

(c) Eddie Mendoza for the cover of A Song of Ice and Fire 2025 Calendar

under the cut because i'm crazy

i don't know if the books are ever going to make clear what happened at the toj-starfall zone but we can be sure only that ned went from one to the other with lyanna's bones and supposedly baby jon to return dawn to the daynes. ashara had a baby of father unknown and shortly after ned was there she took her own life, body never found. i go back and forward in thinking if ashara's brother lord dayne was there with her when ned went or if he was one of the dornish commanders defending the targs. in any case, his presence was completely zero during this time so i think he was too injured for a time or too sickly in general to do something to reestablish the dayne name in dorne after arthur being an important part in elia's disgrace and indirectly, her murder.

because yeah after arthur and ashara's death and going by the books there is zero mention of them, even in the chapters set in dorne or others about dornish characters make no mention of them. and it's strange considering that when you read awoiaf and f&b, the daynes are The knights of dorne. queen nymeria marries a dayne, sends a starfall king to the wall, meria martell commands a dayne to burn oldtown, arguably one of the most powerful cities of the time, out of all the sons of daeron ii and myriah martell, maekar marries a dayne, the only dornish lady. it could be nothing OR something but i think it does mean something. we see there's no daynes in oberyn's party in kl or speculation in general about the new sword of the morning beyond remembering dear old arthur. they've fallen completely into obscurity. the house was reduced to a young girl and its child lord.

edric's dad dies before agot (he doesn't seem to afflicted by his death when he meets arya if he were less than a year dead, inheriting the lordship at such a young age would've been dramatic to him), i would say just after becoming a page to beric dondarrion at 7 yo and i headcanon the marriage between beric and allyria was brokered at this time too. this was part of a fic i was writing like 500 years ago but i think lord dayne must have known he would not live too long, not to see edric grow so he must have looked for someone to prepare and take care of allyria and edric after he died. betrothing allyria to a marcher lord is......strange. if a dornish person would have to be married to someone it would go like this 1) not from the reach 2) not from the marches in that order, there is too much bad blood. the daynes have a longstanding tradition of killing oakhearts so marrying allyria to the heir of blackhaven and giving him his only heir, lord dayne entrusted a complete stranger with the future of his house.

beric would've been in charge of teaching young edric just about everything. he would be living in the stormlands for almost half his live, learning from a his maester and how to govern a stormlands' castle. meanwhile, allyria in a few years probably around agot time would be ready to marry beric when she reached her majority. she would've been the defacto ruler of starfall in edric's name when lord dayne dies, i think the idea was to swap when edric gained his spurs: he would return to starfall after a successful run as a tourney knight, probably gaining some recognition from whatever beric was tasked with at the capital (rip king) and then accompany allyria to be married to his knight master. andddd fin.

the thing is. allyria being so young during the rebellion, lord dayne absence for whatever reason and then dying, let the younger members with no connections in the wider dorne political context. it is said young children go to the water gardens and it's fun yeah but it's def a starting point for politics for many lords. it's close to the martells and it's an opportunity to make friends with future rulers, /everyone/ is going. the daynes didn't have this. allyria was probably very young when the rebellion happened (i think no older than 5) and for obvious reasons she was not sent to the water gardens; as for ned, i think lord dayne could not secure an invitation, this or he died too early to even try. if allyria had gone, she would've been for sure one of arianne's companions, she has both the breeding and the standing, but NOT and it's crucial, the reputation. see what arianne has to say in affc about gerold's standing:

"He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords."

it's must be passé to associate with the daynes at this point. think of the conningtons losing all standing when joncon lost the battle and was exiled.

in any case, allyria, more than edric, grew in obscurity. as of the books she's betrothed to a marcher lord nobody knows if he's alive or dead, has a missing nephew and it's in charge of one of the most ancient first men houses of westeros. sad! at least ned is having more fun. which leads me to darkstar. i see his thirst to prove himself, his notoriety as a cruel knight as another way to separate himself from what the main branch has fallen into. he is in his twenties so he was probably affected by the same dark cloud as the others.

"If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great? I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

he wants to have what arthur had, but not be the sword of the morning, he wants something that it's his own, as he says. he may want the sword and the fame like arthur, but not to be associated with another's bad luck so to speak. it's very telling that he's called one of "the most dangerous man in dorne" and what is the sword of the morning if not this? he's a dark mirror of the daynes pre rebellion, just like allyria would've been a renown beauty just like ashara is she wasn't cloistered. something something gerold and allyria as mirrors of what could've happened to ashara and arthur if they hadn't the protection of the monarchy.

i once read gerold is meant to have young ned's plot after germ scrapped the five year time skip and i think this is half true. i do think there is something to be done about dawn the sword and i think gerold is going to steal it and do something with it, something ned can't do because he's /still/ in the riverlands. i don't know what but i think it ties nicely with the theme of deconstructing the noble knight archetype. arthur is only great because he knew how to kill.

writing this i had a breakdown about the parallels between arthur and gerold

to finish this rambling i want to say my hopes for house dayne in what is left of asoiaf is 1) ned alive 2) gerold steals dawn 3) and like. something. honestly i will take anything at this point about allyria. DOES SHE EVEN KNOW? my poor girl and 4) if germ wants to clear the toj situation then it's fine.

thanks for asking and to anyone reaching this point lol. this is mostly general but if you want to talk about anything specific just message me! k thx muah!

[atopvisenyashill]

thoughts on the grand northern conspiracy theory?

it makes some points but i think most of it is deeply silly and relies on far too many leaps in logic and characters acting in a way they would never act all to push a “jon will be king” theory, which as i’m sure everyone knows, i am a big hater of.

The basis of the theory is that the Northern lords are purposefully playing Stannis & the Bolton/Freys against each other so they can take each other out, and free the North up for a Stark King & Northern Independence. That, on its face, I fully believe. It’s the details in the theory that I don’t fully buy into.

It’s basically canon that the Northern lords & ladies are really taking advantage of the chaotic politics & lack of a real centralized leader at the moment to make their own political moves. Some examples here include:

Arnolf & Cregan Karstark are explicitly doing this, something Alys comments on and something several other lords point out: "My uncle declared for Stannis, in hopes it might provoke the Lannisters to take poor Harry's head. Should my brother die, Karhold should pass to me, but my uncles want my birthright for their own." They don't really care about Stannis, they want Harry dead so they can have Karhold.

Alysane Mormont is potentially working off orders from her mother, when she says here, "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered." Even though as far as we know before that, all of Maege's girls were at Bear Island (except Dacey, who was with Maege in Robb's campaign).

There's the Umbers refusing to fight each other while picking two different sides, and this theory here that it was likely a plan between Mors and Hother to keep the Greatjon alive.

The Manderly Of It All re: very obviously using his granddaughter's anger as a cover for his own brutal plans for revenge and a Stark restoration.

The North is all clearly playing the game & attempting to oust the Boltons & Freys from power. I also don’t think the grumbling for Northern Independence would have died down since Robb died - if anything, after their King is brutally, viciously murdered, his mother’s corpse made a mockery of, his little Queen now a prisoner, and his sisters married off to enemies & humiliated, I imagine the calls for Northern Independence have gotten louder. This is a people that has suffered not just death and violence, but a lot of humiliation on top of that, and all of that is the perfect recipe for some sort of nationalist call for independence.

But the theory has. Some points that I just cannot co-sign because they make absolutely zero sense to me.

The idea that the only thing stopping Jon from being king is Jeyne being pregnant or the witnesses of Robb’s will being dead is just silly. He isn’t Ned Stark’s son, he is Lyanna’s! That puts Robb’s entire will in question, and you can bet your ass that there will be some grumbling or discussion about whether Winterfell should bypass Ned‘a line despite him having TWO true born sons and TWO true born daughters still alive, or whether it goes to Lyanna and therefore to Jon. The succession question is just NOT as simple as the meta makes it out to be because it completely ignores that Jon is, I cannot stress this enough, NOT actually Ned Stark’s son.

The meta is right that it’s likely Maege & Gallbart got a message to Howland because Theon notes that there’s been attacks by craggoman. But. Howland is one of - possible thee only - person left alive that knows Jon is Lyanna’s son. There is just no way he doesn’t have a strong opinion on whether Jon should inherit winterfell without knowing the truth.

Irrelevant but it’s really mean to Jeyne Westerling. Whatever role she may have - even if it’s to die in the prologue of TWOW - her life and her death are important regardless of whether she’s pregnant! She is the widow of a King, and if she dies by LSH’s hand, it’s going to be a huge point in showing us the violence in the Riverlands. Maybe the continued breakdown in the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart’s anger, and Jeyne’s defiance of her family is not relevant to the King Jon pushers, but it IS thematically relevant to the plot thank you very fucking much. THE GIRL IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE BOY.

More relevant to this point is there’s just no way in fuck that Lady Stoneheart is trying to crown Jon. “oh she has bigger problems” she is going to crown one of her children if she crowns anyone, likely Arya, not her husband’s bastard who she fucking hated & asked to be banished to a glorified penal colony. Look at Brynden’s comments about Jon:

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both.

Cat hates that kid so much she wrote letters to her uncle talking shit about him but we are supposed to believe this is proof she wants to crown him? When she's so far gone she's willing to kill Podrick and Brienne off a perceived slight against her? When she's heard several rumors that her daughters may still be alive and well? No. Don't buy it even a little.

Also, Brynden is flying Robb’s banner bc Robb was his family, because he loved Catelyn, and because what else is he supposed to do when he’s in the middle of a siege?? This point is silly and nonsensical.

Harwin as the Hooded Man - i mean. there’s nothing for or against this really, but also the Theon Durden theory aka Theon is the hooded man and doesn’t realize bc he’s having a psychotic episode, is much more believable to me & much more in line with everything that’s happening in theon’s chapter.

So like. Yes, the basic premise of “the northern lords are desperately looking for a stark, any stark, to make king/queen in the north, bc they are tired of All This Bullshit” is something i completely agree with. I do think it’s likely Maege has been in contact with her daughters, & that she and Gallbart made contact with Howland, who is about to enter the scene in a big way. But all that ish about LSH, the BWB, and Blackfish? Absolutely not. LSH is about Arya’s story (and Brienne & Jaime’s), not Jon. Stoneheart doesn’t care about the politics in Westeros; she cares that she followed all the rules and it got her family killed, so now she will break every rule there is to get revenge for her slaughtered children. she is Alyssa Arryn except she has the power to cause a lot of suffering before her tears drown her. she is not wasting her second life crowning jon snow!

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

My opinion is that none of the stark children knows what happened to their family before especially LYANNA, like yea they have an idea that both the three died, but do they actually know what caused their death ? No, merely the fact that Bran has no idea about the tourney of harrenhal is really telling and Ned most likely kept a tight-lipped about what happened after the tourney 

Hello! I agree with you that Ned probably didn't tell anyone about what happened before and during Robert's Rebellion, after all, Catelyn didn't know the gruesome details about Rickard and Brandon's murders. But Ned isn't the only one responsible for raising and educating his children, there's also Catelyn, Maester Luwin, Septa Mordane, Ser Rodrik and others.

Lyanna's kidnapping and Rickard and Brandon's murders aren't just personal tragedies for the Starks, they're also some of the most important political events in the last twenty years. Robb was going to become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, and Sansa was supposed to marry Robert's son and become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, so they needed to know about Robert's Rebellion to function in their upcoming political positions.

It makes sense that Bran only knows the barebones of the situation, because he's eight years old, but Theon knows about the Tourney at Harrenhal:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. (ACOK Theon V)

Jon probably also knows about Lyanna being kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, otherwise the revelation of his true parentage will have to include an history lesson 😂

Basically, Robb, Jon and Sansa know the basic historical facts about Robert's Rebellion even if they don't have all the details, Arya and Bran probably know that their family members died during it or maybe that they were killed by the Targaryens.

[vivacissimx]

vivacissimx meta masterpost ✧˖°

We're about at the time where a post like this makes sense. If you see any missing metas it's likely because I no longer (entirely) agree with either a premise or phrasing and I'd like to rework it at some point—or I forgot. Feel free to ask!

I've bolded metas which I believe to be the most sound or that highlight a critical point which is overlooked by most ASOIAF analysis I have read. I also use the tags #text and #gender-in-asoiaf.

The Starks and the North

how jon being a bastard shaped the relationships between ALL members of house stark

on the abuse debate

how jon snow internalized catelyn tully stark's ideals

jon snow's heroes: an evolution from AGOT to ADWD

on jon snow and the R+L=J reveal

on jon snow's attraction to men

on jon snow forgiving theon greyjoy

on jon snow weaponizing his own competence

jon snow & women at the Wall: the question of rape

sansa stark & foreshadowed false testimony

sansa and ned have a foil relationship to lyanna and rickard

arya IS like other girls

arya stark: death and balance

arya & jon underrated parallels

the textual significance of the arya/lyanna parallels

the importance of lyanna stark's crypt statue

how lyanna influenced ned's acts of love for his daughters

how ned stark would perceive daenerys targaryen

what would happen to ned if robert discovered R+L=J?

Daenerys Targaryen

every daenerys ever: how dany's claim of a throne is foreshadowed throughout house targaryen's history

on the healing power of fire

on the myth that daenerys targaryen ruined meereen's economy

on the myth of a diplomatic solution in meereen

daenerys & ser barristan selmy: found family!

daenerys & bran: putting the first/last chapters of AGOT in conversation

daenerys & tyrion: how their TWOW alliance may come about

House Targaryen

on rhaegar targaryen and the prophecy of TPTWP

on alysanne targaryen, and how viserra's betrothal/the aftermath unfolded

viserra, alysanne, & baelon: a web weaving

viserra & saera

Theon Greyjoy

theon's gender: always broken, always under construction

[NOTE: this is the meta on which all my other theon meta relies. If you read nothing else I have ever said about theon, please read this.]

roose bolton as (another) father figure to theon

why theon greyjoy did not go visit his mother

theon greyjoy and the myth of return

theon greyjoy and winterfell's mirroring in ADWD

House Lannister

jaime & tyrion's awareness of cersei being abused

cersei lannister's brothers rationalization of cersei as being complicit in her abusive relationship

on cersei lannister's idealization of rhaegar, & also her dysphoria

ASOIAF Misc

breakdown of the grand maester conspiracy

unreliable narrators (and why we NEED arianne martell POV)

jon connington's memory

Dance of the Dragons Era

rhaenyra targaryen's maladaptive relationships due to abuse

rhaenyra & daemon's gender troubles

on viserys naming (and keeping) rhaenyra as his heir

on the legality of claims of bastardry

alicent, criston, & daemon as rhaenyra's formative (abusive) influences

[esther-dot]

Elizabeth of York and Henry VII have always given me jonsa vibes.

Jon’s got a right to the crown in the North through his mother and Sansa through her father. Her claim is stronger, as was Elizabeth’s over Henry’s, since her brothers were assumed to be dead.

Lyanna was a pregnant teen and so was Henry’s mother. Both parents died before the births of their sons. Henry was an only child and so is Jon.

Although Elizabeth herself was not a red headed she had a famous red headed son.

Henry’s father was Welsh and that made him the son of “a dragon”. Henry created the Welsh flag we know, a red dragon over a white and green background and flew it as his personal standard in battle.

Henry was thought by some to be a prophesied hero from the legends of Merlin and Arthur. In reality, he was rather practical, keen to make alliances through marriage, and very careful with money. Like Jon.

Their marriage brought an end to war but it would be their great grandchild, James I, who would finally unite in himself the North (Scotland) and the South (England).

Interesting, isn’t it?

Yes! I thought of you when I added that post to my Q and wondered if you'd written about that before? I know I've read a meta, and you're so good at the historical parallels!

Several people have wondered if, since we're told Bran can't have kids, we're meant to assume that Sansa's child would be his heir/eventually rule Westeros because of Cat's lines back in AGOT:

Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that? (AGOT, Catelyn II)

which fits really well with this line of spec. I saw another post the other day, a picture of a coin with Elizabeth of York with the inscription that definitely reminded me of Stark maidens/Jonsa:

The latin inscription says: ‘Elizabeth of York wife of Henry VII Queen of England’ (obverse) and ‘Hence have our roses grown’ (reverse). (link)