#not gay or queerbait but a secret third thing

[ethogirlsgogames]

"I just really like miniaturizing things in Minecraft. No other reason" -etho on why he made statues of his boysituationship

[piupiumonstro]

soooooo i started watching sherlock lmao. anyway so i understand the girlies who were obsessed over those two men being in a relationship? because it was clearly done on purpose? people were meant to take it that way? i'm so sorry superwholock girlies i'm sorry i doubted you

[dtkqer]

wait why ranboo (idk much abt him)

ESSAY WARNING AHEAD do not fucking repost this shit anywhere holy fuck i will kill you!!!!!!! respect my boundaries :((

ok my thought process was somewhere along the lines of

rboo (kid wanting to blow up as a mcyter during summer 2020) getting attention through making fan content of dream smp (also trying to write themself into the lore) -> dream (kid who blew up as an mcyter before the pandemic hit, getting even more insane numbers) sees himself in rboo, adds him to the dream smp

-> path 1: parasocial stan delusion - ran is both viewer and cc, relatable to viewers in a down to earth way while gaining an insane amount of success very very fast -> heightened scrutiny to not fuck things up because his audience is full of normal people who care about social justice on paper (part of dreams influence in having a gender and race diverse (somewhat) audience) -> growing importance of boundaries (tm) -> fandom becomes insanely blue haired liberal and jumps on every mistake, demanding quick and GOOD apologies for both inane and serious shit -> fandom becomes volatile and creates disproportionate responses to everything -> they (rboo) become spineless -> this attitude and spinelessness leaks over to the whole of mcyt since most of dsmp shared an audience at that point -> feedback loop we see today (sidebar: growing media illiteracy combined with volatile reactions extend to lore shit on all ends and was absolutely compounded by their joining -> "sanctity" of the lore -> michael -> dsmp audiences split over the parasocial belief that character = content creator's thoughts beliefs and actions in real life instead of. acting)

-> path 2: control and queerness - branch off from blue haired liberal -> viewers have good intentions in wanting more rep in the cc space (queer and women, not so much race) -> marginalized communities cant afford to make mistakes as much as white men in the space -> disproportionate amount of criticism for both white men and marginalized ccs -> viewers attempting to take control of ccs due to ran blurring the line between viewer and cc during lockdown/most viewers' formative social years being taken from them -> not much education about queerness in the first place -> queerbaiting discourse and queer being a symbol of goodness -> people seemed to want dream to be straight and evil and ran to be gay/queer and good -> double standards when dream and ran come out because of dream's perceived power, status, and past growing up in conservative florida he had already been addressing, but ran gets a warm welcome because of bending to the audience more than dream has and past not holding as many mistakes meaning they could claim queer as an identity -> selective biphobia because if dream is queer hes a bad queer so everything he does is evil

-> return to main thread - brighton bastards formed, beeduo date and break up, everyone becomes bitter boots after lockdown ends and dream abandons his adopted bastard child he came to love that george originally gave birth to -> october and drexodus -> quackity resentment somewhere in there behind the scenes, dtkq breakup -> former audience split over lore comes back into -> qsmp shit -> dream and by extension dteam/munchy is evil except badboyhalo who supports dream but is still on qsmp because hes a lore andy -> schisms from the past continue to grow, new schism of q's side vs dream's side appears (secret third challenger of brighton floptopia) -> people air out their dirty laundry and snide comments -> november and december -> relative peace -> march-> karl gets hit by a car -> present day -> dnf sextape

i may be wrong for quite a bit of this but this is how i saw it . again this is a tumblr exclusive if you repost this anywhere even iwth my url cropped i will fucking kill you.

[halloweentual]

not gay media but also not not gay media but a secret third thing (characters pretty much confirmed to have feelings for each other but they never got together so people still call it queerbait)

[lesbospirk]

I think its funny how people call spirk queerbaiting. Like Amok Time came out in 1967, we were just getting out of the hays code era. You could be arrested for being gay, homosexuality would remain in the dsm as a mental illness for six more years when this episode released. There was no one to queerbait lmao. It was genuine, full bodied, accidental homoeroticism. Idk I just think Spirk should not be known as a queerbait couple, it was truly just guys being dudes staring lovingly at eachother while also being t'hy'la. Which sounds like queerbait but I promise it is actually A secret third thing that is neither and both at the same time.

[15ktherapy]

“not gay or queerbaiter but a secret third thing” im going to kill uou.

[unliikelylovers]

saw the barbie movie today (good movie) opened twitter (huge mistake) was confronted with a thinkpiece about how the barbie movie queerbaited and then a tweet about queerbaiting celebrities with pedro pascal as the first example and i just want to know what the fuck people mean when they say queerbaiting. like. ok first of all if you thought the barbie movie produced by mattel was going to be a radical piece of queer art that’s on you. that wasn’t, like, any part of the marketing! that was just you! 

second of all the whole idea that individual people can “queerbait” is so fucking stupid. to the extent that “queerbaiting” is a useful term (which i am less and less convinced of) it’s useful to describe a marketing technique. the classic queerbait of the 00s-10s tv shows, you know, starring two white guys the fans push together like they’re making their dolls kiss (did i mention i saw the barbie movie today). and like, the problem with queerbaiting is that it’s done out of cynicism. that it’s done by production companies who want gay fans tuning in, who want gay dollars, but who have no interest in telling real gay stories, which would mean risking their straight audiences. that’s the problem with queerbaiting. so what is the logic behind saying that, like, kit connor is “queerbaiting” by being an eighteen-year-old actor playing a bisexual teenager on a tv show that is like crafted in a lab to be Good Wholesome Queer Representation? it just doesn’t compute! even if you buy into the narrative that gay roles must or should be played by gay actors (i don’t) the idea that you are owed a queer celebrity’s public, explicit coming out or else they’re “queerbaiting” is completely fucking ass-backwards. being closeted as a public figure is not in itself a betrayal of queer causes. it’s actually not advancing the cause of queer liberation to push an eighteen-year-old actor at the very beginning of his career out of the closet, but thanks for playing

third of all in re pedro pascal i’m going to go under a readmore because i’m a fan of him but this post is too long and no one cares 

people are really fucking obtuse about pedro pascal specifically and it drives me nuts. like okay let’s break this down, because there’s layers to this

let me just make it absolutely clear that i don’t think it’s good or productive to expect queer actors (or any public figures) to have public, explicit coming-out moments. i think it’s a lot more complicated than that, but the bottom line is, public figures are entitled to their private lives, and if they’re not hurting the lgbtq community, i think it’s crass and counterproductive to hound them about their sexuality. i also think that the expectation of, like, an interview where someone says the words “i’m gay” dovetails with the idea that assuming someone’s sexuality is unilaterally bad and homophobic, and i disagree. i don’t think it’s helpful to the lgbtq community to assume that all public figures are straight until they explicitly tell us they’re not. 

so pedro pascal is famous for shows like the mandalorian, the last of us, and narcos. among the people who would call him a queerbaiter, the thing we love about him is when he plays a Manly Man with a secret soft side. he gets typecast as a reluctant father figure who would die for his misfit adopted child and i eat it up every time. my point being: he isn’t playing specifically gay roles! again, even if you accept the premise that gay roles should go to out gay actors, that’s not what pedro pascal’s career looks like. (and i would argue that roles like joel and mando are specifically relying on a kind of straight(-passing) masculinity but we don’t need to get into that)

so, in what sense is he queerbaiting? what’s the logic here? because he’s not building a career on gay roles. he’s not cultivating or marketing a public persona that relies on assumed queerness. he posts about pride, he talks about his support for lgbtq political causes, and he loves his trans sister. that’s it. that’s all. if he were, for instance, married to a woman, all this would amount to is him being a very sweet and welcome lgbtq ally. 

but, of course, he’s not. he’s a famous actor without any real rumors of relationships with women (except sarah paulson, lmao). he doesn’t talk a lot about his private life. and -- what i think is the reason for him being included in this “queerbaiting celebrities” tweet -- is that recently there’s been a couple semi-viral tweets of people screenshotting that he was following male models and onlyfans creators on instagram, and commenting on their posts. 

this idea that he’s “queerbaiting” is just plain old gossip magazine outing, repackaged in terms that make people think this is a righteous queer-liberatory crusade. no, it’s not. it’s crass, it’s gross, and it’s homophobic.

you can do the math on pedro pascal. you can come to the conclusion that he’s pretty much definitely gay, i certainly have. but he’s entitled to a private life. he’s hurting no one by being closeted. and the point is that accusations that individual people are “queerbaiting” are more often than not carrying water for homophobes, and we don’t have to live like this

[fallynleaf]

The Acclaimed is gay representation (Anthony Bowens) and queerbaiting (Billy Gunn) solidarity, plus a secret third thing (whatever Max Caster is doing)

[pidgeoneon]

not queerbaiting not representation but a secret third thing

(when a character's queerness is woven into the narrative itself, past labels, simply a raw and emotional journey into the Feelings of it all where it can be used easily as a metaphor for queerness but that almost oversimplifies its audience. makes the gays cry and speaks to the straights in a language they don't understand but recognize as beautiful)

[mythmotel]

queliot isnt queerbaiting or bury your gays but some secret third thing

[trutrustories]

Okay, this will be probably long and with many errors (my english isn´t very good) But I saw several posts here on Lokius tag, talking about this ship as result of gay fetish, and about non existing chemistry and  how this ship doesn´t make sense etc… And from what I understood there is tagged Lokius because of genuine interest to understand others point of view, so here is mine: I wil try to explain where my frustration comes from, and how I feel about Lokius, Sylkie, AND representation + some other things which I saw here somewhere. But first of all: I like Sylvie, I don´t hate sylkie shipers, and after so many years reading fan fictions, I don´t mind selfcest – I read weirder things. I have some issues with this ship (the mainlythe fact that it isn´t Lokius), but  this is not one of them. Also, I am not about to tell anyone, they shouldn´t ship sylkie.Ship whatever. And I LOVED the show as a whole. 

I just want to defend my standpoint, that Lokius does make sense, people shipping it does make sense and whether it will happen or not, (I don´t have my hopes very high, and I learned to be very skeptical in this regard ) it is more than just about crack ship, or fetish. I´m honestly blown away that people are still surprised that this ship became a thing :D First of all, let´s look at some romantic story telling and tropes: I mean the way they introduced them in the first two episodes set the tone for all series and how the heck this isn´t romantic? Somehow there are all these romantic tropes existing in a show. They´re just there. Just chilling between Loki and Mobius and large portion of audience can´t even see them. (and some of those tropes were used for Sylki as well, so you could actually see them side by side)

For example: 1) traveling to the apocalypsis 2) breaking law/rules for the other 3) literally changing for the better thanks to the other 4) arguing like old married couple 5) saying secrets, personal things to the other 6) sharing glances, touches, visibly being happy around each other - in case of Loki happier then we´ve ever seen him before 7) being completely themselfs around each other 8) One knowing everything (even the worst) about other and still accepting him completely 9) teasing, being comfortable and domestic around each other 10) one being literally enthusiastic FAN of the other 11) Mobius defending Loki whenever he has a chance 12) Freaking amnesia trope that they pulled of in the end??? (It could be different Mobius, but point is he suddenly doesn´t know him - and Loki knows more, in contrast with the beggining) 13) the jealousy in ep4 14) Misunderstanding - when Mobius thought Loki betrayed him and Loki (thanks to Ravonna) thought Mobius betrayed him... 15) witnessing death of the other and being absolutely broken afterwards 16) The goodbye hug with romantic music in the backround 17) Saving life of the one (even when it means problems for the other ) - like Mobius saved Loki´s ass at least three times when he was trying to stop others from pruning him. 18) sharing deep conversations about meanings of life, freedom and how it would be fun to make some chaos and ride that fucking jet ski!!! 19) Inspiring the other 20) looking for each other (Mobius didn´t believe for a second, that Loki would die in the Void and the way how in the last minutes of the series Loki run through all places they were together when he was looking for Mobius... and I could go on. Point is, even if they are not planning to make Lokius canon, all these things are used on a daily basis to describe romance in media and they are used here. On top of that it´s just very poetic and cute, that this drama queen and powerful god of Asgard who looked down on people would find his match in someone, who is so quiet, ordinary on the first sight, and basically is just human from 90s, who loves jet skis. Mobius can´t even fight. But is highly inteligent and he also happen to be as good manipulator, such as Loki himself. - That´s why they work together so well. Mobius sees right through him and once Loki understands that, he drops his evil persona. Almost nobody expected to ship it for real. But story itself and chemistry between them just made it probably the most exciting duo in the whole MCU. And I mean it genuinely. Third episode, even though it was beautiful and Sophie was great in it (and is literally dipped in bisexual colors), is the least favorite for a reason. And that reason being, there is no interaction between Loki and Mobius whatsoever. Lot´s of people though that series slowed down a bit. Even when in fact there was more action, then when we watched Loki and Mobius working at the TVA.

(and let´s just talk about evil!Mobius narative for a bit and how some people say he is manipulative and toxic for Loki: show itself explore heavy themes and one of them is in Loki´s line: no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good. And as a theme in a fictional world, it is working as it should, for the  story. When Loki and Mobius meet, one of them just killed lots of innocent people and destroyed almost whole city. The other one is a part of fascist organization – and in the beginning of the series they both believe what they´re doing is right. They´re both bad, they´re both good, they´re both broken. And they are changing with the help of the other.) From all reactions I watched - and there was many of them, lots of people actually didn´t see dynamic between Loki and Sylvie as romantic in the third episode. So it´s not like Sylvie and Loki had unequivocally love story right from the start.

The only difference is that lots of people won´t see romantic tropes, when it comes to two men in a mainstream show – show that isn´t primarily about relationships and problems that queer people has to face. Because in super hero story and science fiction we have to warn audience, that they´re about to watch two man in love, right? At this point It´s just frustrating really. There were many M/M dynamics that used similar story line, as for example Lucifer, or X-files, or Bone collectors. -  But unlike those M/M pairings, no one was making fun of people for shipping main characters in these shows. But when it comes to two men suddenly you´ll see from all corners of the internet: “why can´t it be just platonic?” “There is not enough platonic relationships” “why can´t two man just be friends?” (They can and they almost ALWAYS are) and “if you think there something romantic between them, you´re delusional” “fetishist“ “And for god´s sake just let them be friends, Loki needs a friend more then....” oh wait, but Sylvie is allowed to kiss him. Sylvie doesn´t have to be just friend. (And I must say, that I love Sylvie, I liked most of the interactions between her and Loki and I think she is a great character ((I hope we learn more about her in the future)) it just doesn´t work for me as well as Loki´s dynamic with Mobius. Maybe partly because of chemistry between actors, partly because combination of characters and they´re personality and also because I had two whole episodes to fall in love with the pair before Sylvie was even introduced.)

First of all: people can be friends and then evolve into lovers. Not only it is common romantic trope, but it is also the most realistic one. And those relationships are usually strongest. second: If people want to see Loki in a platonic friendship so desperately, why can´t it be a woman for a change? They were acting like chaotic siblings for most of the episode three anyway. The age gap aspect is also very funny. Owen is only about 12 years older (That is not that much. But I imagine, some people would get uncomfortable. But If it was man and woman, most of them wouldn´t even blinked. But two men, that has to be somehow automatically son and father figure dynamic) And If you want to dive into age of an actual characters, then good luck with that in a series about gods, variants and time travel. Almost nobody cares about age gap between Lucifer and detective Decker, or Bella and Edward. On top of that, it was heavily implied, that Loki slept with older, silver haired guy in Ragnarok, so it´s not like he would have problem with that.

Different standards are projected in a way how we see romantic dynamics between fictional characters depends on what we are used to, how are we perceiving world around us, what we are expecting to see and ALSO, what we would like to see, that much is true.  When people are used to make no differences between heterosexual and homosexual pairing, then everything what happens to the characters is measured with the same meter. (Even though I experienced queerbaiting many times (( Once upon a time, Sherlock, Supernatural, Good Omens – the last one hopefully is not the case, but I guess we´ll see)) I also saw lots of lgbt shows like Queer as folks and Sense8.) And when we are not used to see it the same way, well… then it looks basically like that one comment under Castiel´s “I love you” scene on youtube, that said  “what a beautiful friendship”.

If we forget about all that chaotic mess behind the scenes (all those articles and contrary messages)  What is happening in a show between Loki and Mobius can be objectively considered romantic and what is happening between Loki and Sylvie in a series can be objectively considered platonic (until the kiss) and vice versa.  And then to see comments about how absurd it is to even think they have chemistry, and about gay fetish - it´s hard to swallow. I read posts about absurdity of a ship and how there is absolutely nothing that would suggests romance.  Well there is, actually. But whether creators are going to work with it or not, that´s something we can only speculate. They already made Loki officially bisexual. So why should it be so absurd to assume, that there is an actual possibility of romantic subplot between Loki and Mobius? Oh right… it´s Disney and Marvel we are talking about.

So on a subject of bisexuality: Bi people can date whoever they want.  But It is a little frustrating, when there is so many heterosexual pairings in the mcu and disney but when there is a promise of lgbt character (speaking of endgame) we get one line about date from a man we´ll never see again. And when there is a promise of lgbt representation you can´t even blink during movie, or you´ll miss it (Star wars, Beauty and the beast). And then Loki said “A bit of both, I suspect the same as you”. And I won´t lie, I was happy. And I think creators made biggest step yet with this one line (which is honestly terrible, that “a bit of both” coming from Loki of all people, is the biggest step forward.) But they played it VERY safe. Obviously, both Loki, and Sylvie are bisexuals, and in three episodes, we had Loki flirting with female flight attendant, Sylvie talking about her relationship with POSTMAN and then they fall for each other. So the only thing that suggests they are really as bi as Lamentis 1 is that little sentence, that can be edited out, or easily overheard. It´s the bare minimum. And I think that frustration with how freaking slowly we´re moving into some progress is understandable. From all those great M/M dynamics I talked about, those, that could make great love story, nothing happened, because too many people “don´t mind gays but don´t need to look at them” or are scared for their children. In 2021.

It is not a fetish to wish for a gay love story in superhero movies/series. (But anyway, I don´t think there is anything bad about it. Some men like to watch lesbian porn, some woman like to read gay porn. AO3 wouldn´t be were it is today, without people reading and writing slash :D – but that has little to do with what we actually see on tv)

I´m not delusional. As much, as I love these two characters together, I know how little chance it has.  I´m not delusional. I´m just in the future, old and tired, waiting hundreds of years for at least one of my OTP to finaly become a fucking canon.

[afishlearningpoetry]

Why were so many former TJLC fans so quick to turn on the show? Like I was PISSED at s4 but I didn't denounce it because even s4 is still gay af??? Like it ends with Sherlock and John together in 221b raising a kid and Mary dead?? Like this is fanfiction tier romance plot shit even if it took a rollercoaster to get there. Like even before s4 I was reading "Mary is dead, let's raise the baby Sherlock." fics?!?!???

Idk I mean I never even believed any of that… within 12 hours of the six thatchers airing it was incredibly obvious it was a cover story for Mary’s murder, like the base theories had already formed and everyone was already talking about the visual cues in the episode and the more obvious pieces of dialog, the entire Norbury character. The next episode wasn’t as immediately obvious to decipher because it’s so buried in John’s perspective but it’s very foreboding and ends with him being shot, so the expectation was that the next episode would be this really dramatic reveal of the truth and Sherlock saving him. The russian leak also really heightened the feeling we had going into the last episode. Everyone who was looking at it was making cracks about it being dark and bad and low budget.

It’s almost indescribable the feeling we had on that Saturday to anyone who wasn’t there - it was like a completely manic, natural high where everything about the leak was super hilarious, and there was one point where I remember personally like laughing so hard until my stomach hurt, I knew it wasn’t real — just not in the way we were expecting. So when the episode aired the next day it was the worst gut sinking feeling seeing the episode open on Eurus on the plane. We experienced every possible emotion on the spectrum of the human experience. If we didn’t have that expectation going into series 4 and the last episode to be the revelation of John’s cover story, rather than the logical death and conclusion of a larger narrative game we hadn’t grasped the full scope of yet (this was before the discovered the five act structure), the reaction wouldn’t have been so bad, but we had no way of knowing it would go that far and play the long game instead of revealing the twist at the time. And I mean long game, clearly. Now and even then it hasn’t been done before.

Another big part of tjlc is that it started in 2014 and evolved during a point in fandom on here where we were done accepting queerbaiting scraps without a fight. For years we watched shows that were afraid to introduce lgbtq people as nothing more than gags or supporting props, and fans were made fun of for the longest time and openly mocked. It was considered a grave taboo to even “break the fourth wall” by talking about it to anyone else. Tjlc wasn’t a “demand” as a whole for more than that like so many suggest, or “ascribing a secret intention” to the writers, I think other people here can relate to it being a larger evolution of internally accepting the idea that not only was the gay romance was the story they were telling us this whole time, it was something that was deserved simply for just being, it wasn’t something we had to ask for, this was their vision and we were interacting with them through it, and we could watch it without having to worry about it being anything else. So when the third episode aired against our initial expectations, that’s why so many people were affected by it. No one wanted to settle for scraps anymore, or be happy with the two of them raising John and Mary’s child together (lol) although some people have made fan content about that. It was very much a reaction to the media landscape that it happened in.

And things have changed in the last five years, in obvious ways. That’s one of the reasons why I expect that when the show returns so many people, ex-fans and many more who weren’t at all will resort to their mental image frozen in time of what the show was like. The reaction to the third episode was much more about how people were engaging with the show and their own experiences at the time than what it was actually, accurately like, which is true of what everyone does with art.

[ellelans]

same anon here!! as a follow up, you said “Tim said he was accused of queerbaiting with both buddie and tarlos and had to quit Twitter,” and that you’re not interested in what he has to say and tired of rolling your eyes at him. it’s pretty batshit insane that he had to quit Twitter due to constant accusations of queerbaiting, no? sounds to me like these showrunners have been pretty explicit that canonizing a gay relationship between those guys was never the intention and isn’t currently on the table, that they’re interested in exploring the deep platonic relationship between them, so where’s the queerbaiting? sounds like the fans are queerbaiting themselves and then getting pissed that the show isn’t giving them what they want... As an aside, I also saw you say a week or so ago that the writers are supposedly “taking their clues from [the fans]” and it boggled my mind. Is that… something you actually want and think is GOOD and is a reasonable and appropriate expectation to have?? that’s the exact sort of entitled perspective that LEADS to social media harassment - it’s a terrible self-perpetuating cycle. perhaps, as a fandom elder, consider encouraging your followers to leave the creators and actors alone to tell the stories THEY want to tell, even if it means not getting the canonization you want?

First of all-I didn't signed up to be anyone's role model and as a fandom elder don't owe anyone anything either.My followers and fellow fans have their own good heads on their shoulders and they don't need me to do anything.I am here to do my own thing,thats about it.

Second-we are talking about Twitter fandom and not Tumblr one,which are two absolutely different fandoms.I call Twitter a cesspool and its a horrible place.Not just for showrunners,but for actors as well.Twitter fandom basically chased away every actor and showrunner we had because they are that disgusting and trust me queerbaiting is not the worst any of them have been accused of.And tbh I am glad they all quit Twitter because it really is a horrible environment and not good for anyone's sanity or peace of mind.Nothing new here,we have been there before with other ppl from the show,I am rolling my eyes.I am actually surprised Tim lasted that long.Is it horrible?Yes it is.What I can I do about it?Never go anywhere near Twitter fandom lol.I can only be responsible for myself and def not for showrunners or Twitter.

Third-these writers are always talking about how they are getting accused of queerbaiting (both with buddie as a non canon ship and tarlos-a canon gay ship) and if we are talking about the very definition of the world it has no place here because queerbaiting is something else.That said I do realize that recently that word sort of changed its meaning and ok we get what you mean Tim.And no they were never explicit about not canonizing buddie and you know why?Because every time they are talking about Buck and Eddie ad what fans want they are always talking about what they see/write them as,telling us that yes they are aware of what fandom wants and they accept our interpretation - and then they add its not their original intention but they are not going to tell us what to ship and who knows everything is on a table.Thats literally not a no and she could say no.Its much easier to say ''no they are just best friends,we have no plans to get them together'' and shut that discussion down instead of avoiding actual questions.She sees them as platonic - good for her and then she adds that she knows that everything gets interpreted differently by fans.She is aware of how fandom sees the characters and relationship between them and she has no problem with that,her vision was just different.But once again - everything is on the table.So she is not saying no.

Fourth-they are taking their clues from the fans yes.Its not a secret that there are entire media teams dedicated to collecting data from fandoms.Have you ever heard of a show with official Tumblr account?Because we have that.Why are they here?Noone knows yet and they have been around for a year.My guess is to monitor fandom and rely info to other important ppl.They know exactly what we want without any of us going to Twitter or IG to write out our frustrations.Lets just say fans disliked a few certain characters in past-they were written out,so as you can see writers do care what their fanbase thinks.We are about the experience another one disappear soon,don't miss out.I see nothing wrong with writers who interact with fandom that way,its quiet exciting even to be heard by them.

And coming back to the very beginning-from what I am aware of none of my followers are harassing actors or writers and they really don't need me to tell them how best to behave.I am not on Twitter tho,but Twitter can rot.

[masterthespianduchovny]

Steve, Bucky, and Peggy: The Love Triangle that Isn’t

There is a popular narrative among a certain crowd that Steggy only happened so Steve isn’t perceived as gay or having feelings for Bucky. And maaaaaybe this is true, but honestly, I don’t agree.

Peggy was supposed to be the great love of Steve’s life that never got to happen due to circumstance. And then comes along Sharon who is supposed to be his great next love. But, what happened is that not that many people were interested and, funny enough, more were drawn to Steve’s reaction about Peggy—him visiting her and her later dying than they actually have a fuck about Staron or whatever the ships name is.

Coincidentally, this is the SAME movie that Bucky as winter soldier is reintroduced in. The movie where they try to establish a new romantic relationship for Cap and have us met the new Bucky, which the former isn’t Bucky.

What happened is this: fans essentially completely rejected Sharon and salivated for Bucky and this devotion Steve had towards him. It was a shipper’s dream the way Steve behaved. BUT, Steve and Bucky was never on the menu and it was never teased canonically.

I cannot say if the actors or those connected to the MCU queerbaited fans, but actors and connected employees have the habit of trying to be supportive of fans and ships by entertaining things they aren’t necessarily invested in or care about all that much. Some of that is because they appreciate the fans enthusiasm and the other part is it being apart of the job to have enthusiastic fans.

It reminds me how how John Boyega supported two/three ships on Star Wars, but it wasn’t necessarily because he was a shipper himself. The only actor in the current series who seems like an actual shopper is the one who plays Poe.

So, after they got rid of Sharon in the third cap “movie”, they had to figure out what to do about his love interest. Again, the only significant and canonical one people gravitated to was Peggy, but she was dead. BUT, there was also a consistent thread about Cap’s feelings for her. Almost every movie that desires cap prominently has some small scene or moment that references her.

So, for people to act like Peggy was Sharon is dishonest. Or how they want to act like Peggy was some random girl. Peggy met Steve before he was cap—I know, I know, Bucky did too—but, this is important because it sets up their relationship about how she cared for him and took him seriously as a person even then. Her feelings grew romantic as did his, but their feelings was based on friendship and their mutual respect for one another. Peggy also helped Steve to defy orders to do what he felt was right, so they share values as well. I believe all this happened over a span of two years.

When she is in the hospital Steve regularly visits her and is distraught when she dies. His behavior is a call back to that old fashioned romanticized love in which one half of a spouse is loyal, dedicated, and (always) by their beside. Despite Steve still having g his youth and presumably young, interested women clamoring for him, he is devoted to Peggy and takes time out of his week to visit her. When she dies, he’s even her pallbearer.

This behavior is more than “a connection to the past.” I guess since it’s muted and not fighting to save someone you care about at all cost, it doesn’t read a love or romantic.

But, it’s clearly established that Steve’s love has never faded and even though he has young women interested in him, he’d rather sit by the side of his 90 year old (former) love.

We even see him carrying a locket with her picture in it as well. The MCU has gone out of its way to show how very real Steve’s feelings are.

Enter in Bucky.

When we first meet Bucky, we see he’s the best friend of Steve. The charming ladies man who exudes confidence. He looks out for Steve, esp because Steve likes to get up for trouble when standing up for his values. Yet, neither Steve nor Bucky are particularly attached to one another—meaning to subtext of homoeroticism that speaks to deeper feelings known or unknown.

We could argue that Steve’s feelings became prominences, but not known to him, when he saw Bucky again, but I’ll continue to lay out for my reasoning for not believing that.

Winter soldier sets for the foundation of how captain American went from a loyal patriot to questioning and distrusting his government. Despite his camaraderie with the avengers, he still feels alone and like a man out of time. He leans on his patriotism to get him through this totally unique and indescribable experience. But, I’m the second movie, he’s on the run from that very same government and is finding out about their secrets and lies.

During this time he runs into Bucky, his best friend who he thought died.

We must keep in mind that Cap’s two direct connections to the past in this moment are both Peggy and Bucky. We see his loyalty to Peggy due to reasons I mentioned, but there is another factor going on with Bucky: it’s him, but it’s NOT him.

It was completely disorienting for Cap to see a man who was supposed to be dead and in his 90s looking youthful and a unrelenting killer. There was no way they was the Bucky Cap knew. Cap has to get to the bottom of what happened to Bucky and, later, avenge his friend. His autonomy and agency was violated, he was experimented on, and brought back to life to be a trained killer.

Of course Steve feels that deeply, especially because he underwent a similar experiment, but willingly and retained his agency and independence. But, it’s also about corrupting the past for Steve. The way the government manipulates and pushes things forth for the agenda. There’s levels to this.

Then, when Bucky saved Steve, and then disappeared, Steve was largely fine, but concerned about Bucky. And why wouldn’t he be? Bucky almost killed him, saved him, and then left—he doesn’t know how Bucky is dealing and coping with what happened to him. How could he know?

Steve fighting and protecting Bucky in his third movie and, eventually, fighting against Tony is about how we shouldn’t punish an exploited person for something that were manipulated into doing. And how they’re being used as patsy’s to shift blame. Bucky was a victim in the second and third movie. Bucky needed someone to stand up for and advocate for him, which only Steve did.

I mean, did Bucky deserve to die for something he had no choice over? Or imprisoned?

That doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have been two men in love, but once Cap knows he’s safe and protected—meaning, he’s allowed to make a “full” mental and emotional recovery without further exploitation—Cap doesn’t worry or obsess over Bucky. Bucky was on the way to regaining agency and independence and that’s all that cap wanted.

Once Bucky looks happy and healthy when they see each other again, cap goes to treated him like he did in first avenger.

And I fill that this must be pointed out: some friends do go above and beyond for people who 1. Have mental illnesses, no systems in place to assist them, and no advocates other than them 2. Someone who has been harmed/manipulated/exploited, is triggered, and potentially down spiraling. 3. PTSD.

Steve is being a damn good friend and advocate to/for Bucky.

With that being said, some don’t feel that stucky was going to be canon, but that the MCU went out of its way to prove Steve was straight. As a reminder, the Steve and Peggy thread has been CONSISTENT since day one. Since Sharon failed, they wanted to find a love interest for Steve’s endgame, no pun intended. Personally, I think that they went Natasha/Steve because Natasha/Bruce doesn’t work. I understand Natasha and Steve has a great friendship for the “why can’t men and women be friends” crowd, but Natasha also has other male friends, sooo....

To use Star Wars as an example again, this isn’t Poe and Keri Russell’s character who exists solely to prove Poe is STRAIGHT.

Peggy was never created to be someone who existed to prove Steve’s sexuality, but she was someone he was in love with and never stopped loving. She was someone that we knew Steve loved deeply and could never get over.

I know people feel that Steve going back undermines his values both in the comics and the series, which I fee is valid. But, honestly, Steve has spent a good chunk of protecting others and putting his life on the line. We see many of the other avengers be in relationships, have families, and overall fulling lives and Steve just has the avengers.

Which isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, but he’s allowed to want more than that. His life shouldn’t be dictated by if he can be of service to others.

Steve didn’t “abandon” anyone. Most of the avengers are adults who don’t need Steve. He may have been the leader, but anyone in the group can be the leader. There are other heroes.

And Bucky doesn’t need him.

Bucky understand all that cap went through and sacrificed. He doesn’t need cap to always near and hold his hand. That’s not how friendships work. That’s not how families work or, at least, healthy ones.

I’m fine with people who ship stucky, but this animosity against Steggy and Peggy is ridiculous. No movie or show owes you an open ending so you can ship who you want. From what I can recall, there was no canonical queerbaiting (I believe Chris Evans supported both ships, but I think Steggy more). And Peggy isn’t some random woman or a woman he knew for three seconds, she was important to him and their relationship meaningful to him for the rest of his life.

[immaculate-benediction-batch]

Sorry this is so long......How TV Creators Are Handling Subtext And Shipping

TV series creators have a hard time not tailoring content towards a strictly heteronormative audience, refusing to lean in to queer context, no matter howlarge an LGBTQ following a show may have.

Once a fictional character is put out for public consumption, it ceases to be the one thing it’s described as on paper. This is especially the case with TV and film, where said character goes through so many hands before hitting the screen and becoming public property.

There are three kinds of creators when it comes to queer content on TV. The first (and sadly, most typical) is the creator who will deny any intention of creating queer content, and who will also refuse to acknowledge a queer audience’s interpretation., This often results in an instant backlash, as the Supergirlcast and creators experienced after an embarrassing interview with MTV last summer. When prompted to recap the latest season, the cast broke into a cringeworthy song that mocked fans’ interest in the Supergirl/Lena Luthor pairing, with Jeremy Jordan repeatedly exclaiming that the two will never get together. It continued despite Katie McGrath’s attempt to save the interview saying, “The great thing about what we do is, like any art, anyone can read into it what they want.” Chris Wood then chimed in with “Sexuality is all about others’ perception of yours, right?”

Supergirl is a show with a large female following that from the beginning has gravitated toward the female relationships it portrays, with emphasis on those relationships with strong queer energy. At first, there was a group of internet fans that were drawn to the chemistry between Melissa Benoist and Calista Flockhart, which was maximized due to the characters’ intense mentor/mentee relationship, and that was fine, and for the most part went unacknowledged by the show.

However, upon Flockhart’s exit, Lena Luthor was introduced, played by Katie McGrath. Kara Danvers and Lena Luthor became fast friends, and fans’ fascination with Supergirl’s queer vibes grew strong enough for the the cast to take notice. One would think that by having Alex Danvers and Maggie Sawyer, two queer characters already in their orbit, fan speculation about others wouldn’t be such an inconvenience that it would have to be addressed by aggressively singing “They’re only friends!” over and over, as if the pairing were unfathomable.

But Supergirl hasn’t been the only show to outright reject queer interpretations. In fact, a few years back, the long-running series Supernatural was called out by its fans for purposefully inserting homoerotic subtext within storylines pertaining to male characters Dean and Castiel, and for rather indirectly addressing said subtext in interviews. In one of them, Misha Collins (Castiel) stated that in certain scenes with Jensen Ackles (Dean) he was directed to portray his character as a “jilted lover.”

During a Toronto Con panel in 2013, it was revealed that a line was changed by Ackles — who last year specifically requested no questions about the popular pairing be allowed during the Q portion of a panel for the show at New Jersey Con–from “I love you” to “We’re family. I need you” because the Actor didn’t think it suited his character. Despite fandom’s interest in the pairing, it hasn’t been enough for Supernaturalto follow through with an actual queer storyline, aside from the one recurring lesbian character, Charlie, who was ultimately killed off. It turns out our tolerance for queerbaiting does have its limits.

Another show that failed to address the sapphic energy between its leads, in effect rejecting a great opportunity to add a bonus layer to an already complex relationship between two women, was Damages. The thriller starred Glenn Close as powerhouse prosecutor Patty Hewes, and Rose Byrne as her protégée, Ellen Parsons. The series went on for five seasons and throughout, though it benefitted from incredible writing, its highlight was clearly the tension and undecipherable relationship between Patty and Ellen.

While there was never any doubt that their connection was what kept the the show’s palpable tension dial at a 10, anytime the subject was brought up to either cast or creators it was denied or waved off as “wishful thinking,” as Glenn Close put it. When pressed further, she added, “I think there’s something seductive about Patty and she just seduces people and she’ll lead people on. I think that can come across as pure seduction.”

With Person of Interest, Sameen Shaw (Sarah Shahi) and Root (Amy Acker) first connected under very unique, very dark circumstances in which one was holding the other against their will in a life threatening situation. But there was a sizzle there that the audience immediately responded to, and while both cast and writers admitted that was not their intention, something amazing happenedthey took that audience reaction and ran with it. In the end, Shaw and Root’s romance became one of the show’s more compelling storylines.

Jane the Virgin did the same. When a character, Petra, who wasn’t intentionally written as queer read queer to LGBTQ viewers, the writers saw no problem taking the interpretation and adopting it as canon. After years of keeping Petra as a sort of peripheral player within Jane/Rafael storylines, the character of Jane Ramos was introduced as Petra’s defense attorney and eventual love interest.

The third type of creator is everyone’s favorite. This is the one that takes whatever gay subtext or context there is, embraces it, and expands upon it, recognizing that it’s there from the beginning. In the Flesh and Killing Eve are true representatives of queer entertainment that isn’t trying to steer its characters toward a path they weren’t organically wanting to go.

In the Flesh, a BAFTA-award winning series from BBC 3, was easily one of the best shows that no one watched; a zombie show with depth, which isn’t easy to accomplish. The story takes place years after a virus epidemic that turned the infected into flesh-eating monsters is cured, and the rehabilitated are returning home. Its main character is Luke, one of the former infected, suffering from memories of the terrible things he did while sick, and tortured by his own suicide, which was prompted by the loss of love interest, Rick.

The series ran for only two seasons, with a total of nine episodes. It was inventive and creative and stands as one of the greats right next to shows like Hannibal and The Exorcist, which was unfortunately canceled by Fox this year after only two seasons of sacrilege, beautiful cinematography, Alfonso Herrera (Sense8) and a bisexual Father Marcus, played by Ben Daniels.

Killing Eve is a female-led thriller that proves that the secret to making great TV is treating characters like human beings with the capacity to change. Eve, who, when we meet her, is living a life that doesn’t seem particularly terrible, whose marriage appears to be solid, her job secure, is lured into potentially life threatening situations for the sake of following her inexplicable attraction to a female assassin. As if beneath the surface there is a dormant unrest that is awakened with the arrival of Villanelle in her life, and though she does not stop to examine exactly what she expects to get from it, she craves and wants more of these moments that have stirred her awake. She’s both excited and frightened by Villanelle’s audaciousness, by the intrusion into her life,

both figuratively and literally.

The season’s got a few episodes left, yet the most compelling, and most attentively queer moment is part of the fifth episode, in which the two women finally come face to face in Eve’s home. Eve is sopping wet in a gorgeous dress Villanelle’s purchased for her, she’s cold and visibly uncomfortable, therefore Villanelle suggests Eve should change, before proceeding to peel the dress off her herself. It is a scene that doesn’t downplay the very real danger Eve is in by having Villanelle in her home. However there is also an erotic aspect to it that is very purposeful, and as series creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge points out, the attraction is definitely mutual, “I knew that the first moment they see each other. I labeled that moment as ‘love at first sight.’ But I didn’t want it to be constrained to romance, or to lust, or anything like that. There’s something waking in Eve every day that she spends imagining what this woman is doing.”

This type of storytelling allows characters to evolve the way that they want to evolve as opposed to forcing them into a first page description. There is loyalty to the authenticity of the story, which comes from meticulous attention paid to the writing, which Waller-Green explains is all about going against cliché: “The moment something feels predictable, there’s a roar in me to just go to the most surprising place. I don’t want to bore myself.”

Often times, when female queer characters are introduced, it is done in order to titillate, and their storylines are the product of a male gaze fantasy. Killing Eve manages to avoid all of that with Villanelle, a character who seems to have no specific preference when it comes to sexual partners, and yet doesn’t feel the need to use her sexuality to get what she wants. In addition to that and the meaty tension between the two leads (Villanelle and the titular Eve, played by Sandra Oh), the attention paid to the very queer theme of the show is evident in backstories of characters that would normally go without one, like that of Eve’s former boss and best friend Bill, an older man in a heterosexual relationship who casually reveals he’s loved “hundreds” of men, much to Eve’s surprise, and further reveals he is in an open relationship, and happily so.

The series proves not only that queer characters are marketablethe BBC series was renewed for a second season before the first even airedbut that straight creators are capable of writing queer content that isn’t offensive or over-sexualized. Phoebe Waller-Bridge credits the authenticity of the series to a collaborative effort, stating, “Because it’s all about the characters, the little details that link the two worlds, everyone’s really made it a psychological piece rather than just an artistic painting of two different people’s worlds,” but it really just goes to show that that negative aspects of queer representation that include the dreaded male gaze perspective can be avoided as long as the bar is set high enough by the showrunner.

It only takes a little bit of creativity and imagination, and a willingness to challenge the idea that heterosexual-based television makes for the best and most successful stories.

Alex Velazquez is a writer, photographer, and queer Mexican living in Los Angeles, CA.

[cardiganloser]

Fictional Characters Who Are, In Fact, Bisexual

1. Peter Parker

He's a bisexual trans man in my eyes. I know that Stan Lee (RIP) didn't personally agree with this, but agree to disagree. He had a gay awakening to one of the Avnegers before he met them and it's his darkest secret.

2. Dean Winchester

Look, I haven't watched a lot of Supernatural, but from the footage I've even I've managed to figure out that this man is a bisexual idiot in love with the gay angel, and his brother is sick of third wheeling.

3. Stiles Stilinski

Again, haven't seen a lot of Teen Wolf, but I have watched some Stiles clips and this man is undoubtedly not straight. I couldn't give less of a shit what canon says. Look at this boy's layering and cheesy jokes. Look at him consistently asking if gay guys think he's hot, and how comfy he was with the offer of sex from another guy. He ain't straight.

4. Arthur Pendragon

I know, you know, we all know. This, man is a bisexual idiot in love with his best friend and I don't accept criticism. I'm proud to claim him as one of us, even if he's an idiot.

5. Quinn Fabray

Maybe I'm just really in love with Diana Agron but I'll die on this hill. She said sex with our lesbian queen Santana was a one-time thing and then did it again. Ryan Murphy does have a track record of biphobia and ignoring bisexuals, so I'm not surprised he pussied out of this one.

6. Ginny Weasley

She's too pretty to be a straight. I will die on the bisexual Ginny hill. She had a md crush on Luna at one point and I don't accept any other answer. Joanne is a coward though so don't expect anything canon.

7. Scorpius Malfoy

While I agree with a small crush on Rose in first year, anything more than that after how she treated him is bullshit. This is a boy with a lot of internalised homophobia, who is, in fact, in love with Albus Severus Potter, I don't care what Joanne says.

8. Jake Peralta

This might as well be made canon tbh. Some of the stuff he does that's perceived as flirty and romantic with women is so done to guys, and the amount of boy crushes isn't straight. I appreciate b99 for having queer rep (Holt, Rosa, Kevin, etc) but please, just one more thing.

9. Finn (FN2187)

There is nothing straight about that stare. I'm so pissed Disney didn't make Finnpoe canon out of their homophobia and cowardice, and I will never forgive them for it. We could have had an amazing romance, but we got one of many queerbaits.

10. Gina Linetti

Her and Jake are bisexual best friends, try and prove me wrong. I will die on this hill and the others I've mentioned in this post. When she told Rosa they would make a hot couple in another universe, I always saw it as her meaning "I think of you as just a friend" not "I am straight". Like, come on, her energy is too chaotic for a het.