#plot relevant things and how things connect to s5 and such

[hawkinslibrary]

there's a new article out about the play. i think it's paywalled for people outside of the us, so here's a twitter thread with screenshots. i've also typed it all out under the cut here:

LONDON – Next month, the Upside Down extends its tentacles into London’s West End with “Stranger Things: The First Shadow,” a prequel stage production that expands the world of Netflix’s sci-fi/horror blockbuster. 

And the creative team behind it hopes the play will be as groundbreaking as the series itself.  

“We’re about to bring the actors, who’ve just been in this cocoon of a rehearsal room for seven weeks, into [the theater],” producer Sonia Friedman says of “The First Shadow,” which is set to open Noc. 17 at the Phoenix Theatre. “We’ve been making sure it can stand alone without the special effects, because it’s all about story. We are going to blow people’s minds. We are going to terrify with some of the most startling, extraordinary things with the physical production.” 

The project originated with director Stephen Daldry, who approached Netflix’s then-content chief Cindy Holland after the show’s first season aired.  

“One of the conversations Stephen and I had been having was, ‘What theater have we ever seen where you get genuinely scared?’” Daldry’s co-director Justin Martin says. “It was an interesting challenge and provocation. We talked about other [Netflix] titles, but this one felt like the most imaginative and the most challenging to try and find a stage language for.” 

“The goal was to figure out, what does a mega episode of ‘Stranger Things’ look like on stage?” adds Matt Duffer, who created the series with brother Ross. “It was a very long, multi-year process to figure that out. But where they’ve landed is incredibly exciting.” 

For the Duffers, the idea of expanding the “Stranger Things” universe in new forms was an exciting prospect. They're currently working on several spinoff shows, including a children’s animated series and an anime series. The play exists on its own, but it also informs the narrative and characters fans know.  

“The idea was to explore Henry Creel and his backstory and fill in a gap that we don’t explore in Season 4,” Ross Duffer says of the villain also known as Vecna. “The play was being developed simultaneously with us writing Season 4 so we were adjusting as we went. It was an interesting way to develop a story, but to do it concurrently like that made sure everything locks in mythology-wise.” 

Development on “The First Shadow” began during Season 2. Daldry approached Friedman after seeing the magic and spectacle in her company’s production of “Harry Potter and the Cursed Child” at London’s Palace Theatre. The creative team spent time brainstorming the story during the early months of the pandemic with screenwriter Jack Thorne, but eventually decided they needed someone who knew the series intimately. 

Kate Trefry, a writer on “Stranger Things” since Season 2, was an obvious choice for Daldry, despite the fact that she’d never written a play before.  

“Season 2 is really when we started to expand this world and mythology,” Ross Duffer says. “So Kate knows that as well as us. She's been with us in the trenches for so many years that we were so happy that she had this opportunity to do this.” 

From early on, no one wanted to simply remake the first season. Daldry wanted the story to be what Martin calls “in the center of the conversation,” rather than a secondary narrative, so a prequel made the most sense. 

“When we met with Stephen we had just cracked this Henry Creel stuff in the writers room,” Ross Duffer says. “We said, ‘Well there might be an opening here.’ And Stephen really fell in love with it.” 

“There are questions of ‘Why Hawkins?’ and ‘How did all this stuff happen?’” Martin adds, referring to the show’s fictional Indiana town, which becomes a hotbed of supernatural activity. “This felt like a good way to address that.”  

“The First Shadow,” set in Hawkins in 1959, is told over two chapters. Several familiar characters appear, including Bob Newby, Joyce Maldonado and Jim Hopper, who are in their last year of high school when a new student named Henry Creel arrives. Nearby, Dr. Brenner is getting his start in his lab. There are also new characters, like Bob’s sister Patty Newby. Trefry calls it an ensemble play with Henry Creel as the “spine” of the story. Beyond that, everyone involved is as tight-lipped about the plot as they are about the forthcoming grand finale of the Netflix original. 

“It’s about outsider kids who come together to solve a mystery,” Martin says. “And in doing so find themselves and each other. That's really ultimately what ‘Stranger Things’” does so well and why so many people connect with it.” 

Trefry adds that it’s also “about the loss of innocence and coming of age and how you are changed and ruined and saved by these formative events that happened in high school.” 

“So, hopefully, you’ll see that Hopper and Joyce and Bob are all presenting echoes of the trauma that is at the center of this play,” she says. 

In the first season of “Stranger Things,” Joyce, Bob and Hopper seem surprised by what’s going on in Hawkins. But Trefry confirms there’s an explanation for why they don’t immediately connect it to their high school years.  

“The climactic events that happen within these two stage episodes had to be something that could be written off as not magical or science fiction,” she says. “It had to be spectacular and make sense, but we had to go forward in honesty with our characters.” 

As a TV series, “Stranger Things” has a recognizable aesthetic. The Upside Down and its monsters are familiar to viewers, so a stage version needed to incorporates similar visuals.  

Because Trefry had never written a play, she didn’t worry about whether certain effects or scenes would be possible, which upped the ante for everyone included.  

“She cross-cut scenes as she would in the show and wrote crazy visual effects sequences as she would in the show,” Matt Duffer says. “She wasn’t limited by that because it then just presented a challenge for Stephen to solve, which is fun. The opening sequence of the play -- I don’t think anyone even knew if it was possible. I'm still not sure how they’re doing it.” 

Friedman and Daldry put together a notably skilled creative team. Friedman set the bar high from the outset, telling them, “I need to be taken to a new dimension of what is possible with theater.” 

That team includes illusions design and visual effects artists Jamie Harrison and Chris Fisher, who are responsible for the onstage magic in “Harry Potter and the Cursed Child.” Harrison and Fisher spent nearly a year coming up with the effects in “The First Shadow” and have continues perfecting things during rehearsals. 

“It’s very pressurized because there is nothing worse than a bad effect because the audience knows straight away,” Harrison says. “We have to go through quite a lot of watching our work be quite bumpy before it gets smooth. And we have to bring the actors from zero magic skill to being very expert in a condensed period of time.” 

“When you have the world of ‘Stranger Things,’ people know it,” Fisher adds. “They have those big sequences, so we naturally are creating big sequences. We’ve pushed it and I think by us pushing, the directors and Kate have pushed us even more and said, ‘Now we know you can do that, we want this.’” 

As a series “Stranger Things” relies on CGI alongside practical effects, but onstage everything has to be done for real. 59 Productions are creating the video design and visual effects for the play, which will work in tandem with the illusions and Miriam Buether’s set design. Harrison says that “anything that can be achieved in film can be achieved in theater.” 

“In film, people want absolute reality,” Harrison says. “For the effects to be visually real. In the theater, we have a level of imagination that we can use as well. For example, in the piece we’re creating there are a lot more blood and guts.” 

Trefry adds that the stage show is genuinely terrifying. “It’s scary like ‘Stranger Things’ is scary,” she says. “There’s a little bit of like guts and gore, and then there’s also real trauma – people dealing with real stuff.” 

Other elements of the production will hint at the series as well. For instance, Harrison and Fisher met with the creature designer from the series during their design process to ensure “visual continuity,” although they won’t say which creatures appear in the play. And D.J. Walde’s original music recreates the familiar synth theme song with a theremin that matches the late 1950s setting.  

For the Duffers, bringing the “Stranger Things” universe to life on stage satisfies their love of practical effects.  

“The downside of CGI is that the audience is conditioned to the fact that we can basically do anything,” Matt Duffer says. “But there’s something about seeing it actually done. When I saw ‘Cursed Child,’ my jaw was dropping in a way it rarely does now with these big movies. We want to do the same here.” 

Because Trefry wrote the play while Season 4 was in development, the series’ writers were able to retrofit elements of that season to reflect the stage show. The events of the play will also help to “enrich” Season 5, Matt Duffer says.  

“There’s a ton of conversation and dialogue between this play and the events that happen in Season 5,” Trefry says of the final season, which is over halfway written. “It was about trying to create something that is canon, but where you don’t have to see it to see Season 5. But if you do see it, it’ll make Season 5 better.” 

“There are hints of where [the show] is going to go,” Ross Duffer adds. “I think when [Season] 5 comes together, all of those pieces will hopefully click.” 

“The First Shadow” tickets are currently on sale through Aug. 25, 2024, although Friedman confirms the case signed one-year contracts and the production is open-ended. The plan is to bring the play to Broadway and the rest of the U.S. as soon as possible.  

“Hopefully it can get to as many places as it can so as many fans as possible can experience it,” Matt Duffer says. “That’s one thing we’re trying to figure out: How do we make sure people are able to see it before Season 5 releases?” 

“The First Shadow” marks the beginning of a broader universe for “Stranger Things.” The Duffers say they can’t “focus on the spinoffs until we’re landed the plan with Season 5,” but so far they’ve enjoyed letting other artists re-imagine their ideas. 

“This was originally pitched as a standalone story and so to be here now is surreal,” Ross Duffer says. “But this has been the most rewarding experience for us creatively." 

[raayllum]

The Coin / Moon Fam plotline: a Structural Analysis

There's been some stuff in the tags recently about people being bummed over how long the Moon Fam / coin plot line has taken, and while it's an understandable perspective (particularly with how long hiatuses can feel between seasons), when looking at TDP as one complete story... the Coin / Moon Fam plot line hasn't actually taken that long, and is one of the most consistently developed plot threads / relationships in the show - and here's why.

This meta is broken down into three subheadings labelled, "Series Layout," "Plot Relevancy," and "The Trio('s emotional arcs)".

Series Layout

First things first, the fact of the matter is that the only season that didn't continue the coin plotline at all has been S2. Every other season has had something. This is pretty unique as outside character journeys or relationship development, not much besides overarching plot carries between season to season. Callum's arc is a mage and Ezran as king is ongoing, but the coin plotline has developed more consistently per season than emphasis on Ezran and Rayla getting one-on-one scenes together (which they haven't since S2). So the official breakdown is this:

1x01-1x03: Runaan and his relationship with Rayla are developed. He is taken prisoner while she goes on the mission with the boys.

1x05: Rayla shares the backstory of her parents failing to protect the egg. This is the first and last time she talks directly about her family until S3.

1x08: The coins are introduced in relation to Aaravos and the mirror, specifically. Runaan knows something of what the mirror is. He is coined.

3x03: While Runaan is believed to be dead, it is shown to the audience that he is stuck between life and death in the Lotus pond.

3x08: We see Lain and Tiadrin. It is implied they are coined.

3x09: Viren has the coins, taunting Rayla about them. This likewise teases that her parents were coined and reminds us that Runaan is too.

4x07: We learn about the quasar diamonds, which is set up for S5. Rayla also mentions how Runaan used moon opals to create illusion spells.

4x08: Rayla offers to sacrifice her blades and explains their connection to Runaan and Ethari, and how she believes she won't ever see them again. This is pretty blatant setup for the next episode in which

4x09: Rayla tries to save and then receives the coins from Claudia. This is also when it is finally confirmed that Lain and Tiadrin were coined as well. She and Stella escape Umber Tor (this is also how Rayla learns about Stella's portal powers).

5x01: Rayla investigates the dungeons to find out what happened to Runaan / how the coins work. She finds a 'mystery human' in a 4th coin. She determines that while she wants to help her family, she can't bring herself to prioritize it while the world is still in danger and that Callum and Ezran need her.

5x02: We meet the mystery human and find out that he is Kpp'Ar, Viren's old mentor. Rayla uses Runaan's bow and Ethari's arrows (thanking the latter) to defend herself against a corrupted banther.

5x04: Rayla tells Callum the truth about the coins and her pain concerning them. He immediately wants to help her and finds a potential solution concerning the coins: quasar diamonds at the Starscraper. Callum intends to personally free them himself and risks all of their present lives to get the information.

5x05: Karim summons the Bloodmoon Huntress, Kim'Dael, to do his bidding. As we know thanks to the graphic novel of the same name, she has history with Rayla, Runaan, and Ethari.

TDP loves to set things up, add to it a little for a season, and then make it a major focus.

Think of how Claudia and Soren didn't see their dad again after 1x06 until 3x03 - that's about 14 episodes, roughly half of Arc 1! Or how nothing that Viren does in S1 or S2 affects the trio at all until his kids catch up with Callum, Ezran, and Rayla in 2x02, or his own actions until close to 3x04 and 3x08 - once again, seasons apart.

Thus, the breaks in between the Moon Fam development makes sense, even if as laid out before, Rayla's relationship with them and the coins are developed 4/5 seasons. In particular, Rayla's relationship with Runaan and Ethari are more developed and emphasized, additionally, than her relationship with her biological parents. And what's more, thanks to both the Nova Blade and the Quasar Diamonds being rumoured to be at the Starscraper, let's talk about

Plot Relevancy

As soon as we'd learned there was a fourth coin, I assumed that Kpp'Ar was imprisoned inside it, simply because 1) he's close to Viren, 2) he 'mysteriously disappears,' and 3) his name sounds like fucking copper. It is implied in the Book Two: Sky novelization that Kpp'Ar has Plot Relevant Information about Aaravos (and possibly the relic staff) as well as whatever Viren did to save Soren (and his own dark magic misdeeds).

The novelization confirms that Kpp'Ar had a box that perfectly matched the one Aaravos uses inside the mirror for the bug pal spell. Kpp'Ar is also a master of puzzles and could very well be the descendant of the Jailer, who created the now infamous puzzle of the prison, in addition to having a wide berth of magical knowledge.

This implied connection to the prison would make the most sense if Kpp'Ar gets out before Aaravos is freed, and Aaravos will have to be freed in season six. And if Kpp'Ar is getting out of his coin, then the Moon fam are also getting out of theirs before the season finale.

There's also the Kim'Dael plotline to consider. While she is a menace in S5, Janai implies that she is not at her full powers, claiming, "This is a monster you do not want unleashed." Given that Karim has the sun seed and an army, he will likely become King of Lux Aurea and able to free Kim'Dael in S6 as well. This sets up the Moon fam all working together with Rayla to defeat her in S7.

So thanks to Kpp'Ar and Kim'Dael, the Moon fam is tied to two ongoing plotlines that have to get underway sooner rather than later. They are also three of the few characters to have presumably known what the mirror was. Runaan seems to outright know something ("That mirror? You have found something worse than death") and for Lain and Tiadrin, it is implied, as it seems they stayed behind ultimately to guard the mirror > Zym's egg (given that they tried to have Hendryr take the egg with him) because they knew it falling into the wrong hands could be dangerous. This means that when the three of them do come sprawling out of the coins, they will immediately understand the stakes of Aaravos' imminent or potential release.

The "two relevant plotlines" is under the assumption as well that Callum's pursuit of Star magic in order to free them is not what ultimately leads to him 1) him being possessed (with Rayla being called upon to kill him again, generating a potential interesting conflict with Runaan) or 2) snowballs into being what releases Aaravos. In which case they'd be tethered to Three Plotlines. But in some ways, they already are, because of how Runaan in particular is going to impact each of

The Trio

or why the "Ezran short story indicating Ezran is going to have lots of big nasty feelings about Runaan's rescue and survival is the best thing that could've ever happened, thank you" section. You can read the short story here if you haven't already (and I highly recommend it).

Okay, but why is this a good thing? Well...

We know next season that Callum and Rayla are heading to the Starscraper, likely now that things with Aaravos have resolved enough and/or to get the Nova Blade because things have escalated very quickly. However, as previously discussed, while Callum might do some plot relevant snowball shit to get them out of the coins, from an emotional arc standpoint, he's more likely to struggle with Runaan once the assassin is out. As of now, Callum is wholly dedicated to helping Rayla get her parents out of the coins (as he states and reaffirms in 5x04). The fact the Starscraper also has the Nova Blade is a nice preventative bonus. But this current lack of 'big feelings' means that Rayla was our main emotional tether to how people are Feeling about the coin plotline, from a character standpoint.

Enter Ezran and his anger. Not only does it expand his character, it gives the audience another piece of emotional investment and complication in the coin plotline, even if we're still inclined to be more for freeing Runaan than not (which is where Ez may fall). And it also introduces that complication for Callum.

Rayla and Ezran, and Ezran and Callum, rarely argue. Now Ezran is going to be presumably pitted against something Callum wants to do for Rayla, being torn between the two people he loves the most, with Ezran possibly feeling betrayed by the two people he loves the most.

So now there's an emotional investment with all three of the main characters - for Ezran, his anger in contrast with his hopes for peace; for Callum, devotion to Rayla and more importantly in this vein at least, disagreement with his brother; and of course, Rayla being caught up in magic that may have a steep price to pay in order to free her family (and what Runaan may encourage her to do once he is freed, re: killing Callum).

The brothers have to resolve their conflict; Rayla has to get her family back; Runaan's responses to each of these things, and indeed being freed, opens up a lot more avenues. TDP has never taken the easy way out when it comes to character development and complicated emotion. Viren was saved from a similar fate to his former prisoner so that he could develop further - otherwise why keep a character alive? Runaan (and the others) are going to be freed by the end of S6 if not earlier than the finale by a decent margin, and have enough time to change, stumble, and grow alongside their daughter and her friends - while defeating Kim'Dael together as a family, I think. #Justformerassassinthings

Conclusion

S6 is go time and it's gonna be great, Runaan and Ethari are gonna get a good chunk of screentime together, Runaan is one of the most important driving forces within S6's setup, and they all still have places to go as characters. Thank you goodnight

[proud-mama-joyce]

does this S4 song hint at S5 time meddling?

In the scene in 4:01 where Dustin and Mike are looking for a D&D sub, the song “Play With Me” by Extreme plays right after Dustin hangs up the phone: 

I think others have noted how the song itself is anachronistic for 1986, seeing as it was released in 1989. This would suggest it has additional importance as a song selection, since they’re usually careful about these details.

I also find it *very* interesting that the guitar solo section of this song was also featured in a scene of the movie Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure (1989). If you haven’t seen it, Bill and Ted are high school students on the verge of failing out of school when they are contacted by a man from the future, who tells them that the future of world peace depends upon their ability to pass their history project. (This is because passing school allows them to stay together to work on their music, which is destined to solve all the world’s problems.) Using a time-traveling phone booth, they travel across human history to temporarily capture famous historical figures to be involved in their presentation. At one point, several of them end up at the local mall and mayhem ensues ("Play With Me” starts at 0:49):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UGAbAPPkk

Why I think it could be an intentional reference: 

The song wasn’t released yet in 1986, as noted above, yet they chose to use it in ST (and I believe it’s the only S4 song like this, but correct me if I’m wrong). While the lyrics “do you wanna play with me” are obviously relevant for Mike and Dustin’s scenes here, I think there might be more to this, because...

The song being “out of place” in time for 1986 could relate to the time-traveling elements of the plot of BTEE (...and ST?...whatever’s going on, we know that specific times/dates have been emphasized in ST, there’s lots of clock imagery/etc., and we already have direct Back to the Future references in ST)

“Play With Me” is used very memorably in BTEE - not only is it during one of the most chaotic scenes in the movie, but it’s used diagetically (meaning characters in the BTEE universe hear it) as a time-traveling Beethoven experiments with musical equipment in the mall

BTEE is a popular 80s movie, so it wouldn’t be an obscure reference for a lot of the audience of ST (and if there’s more to this connection in S5, it would fit in with the 80s nostalgia of ST)

When “Play With Me” is used in ST, it starts playing during the shot of the phone, and the use of the phone is integral and iconic in the time travel in BTEE

Phones in ST appear linked to several lingering mysteries (how did Will call Joyce from the UD? Why couldn’t Mike get through to the Byers family in California even before Joyce started her new job? Why does Joyce get mysterious phone calls in S2? How and why is electricity connected with UD-related phenomena?)

Other similarities include: 

high-school-aged unlikely heroes in both stories

themes of “saving the world”

this electrical storm imagery:

(above: electrical disturbances in stormy clouds before the arrival of the time-traveling phone booth. Could be coincidence, but I see some similarity with Mind Flayer/UD imagery.)

this line--probably nothing but I couldn’t leave it out: 

Right as Bill and Ted watch their future selves arrive in the time-traveling phone booth for the first time...

...Ted says, “Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.”

What I’m wondering now:

Could this reference support the idea that ST characters will be interacting with their own S1-4 timelines in S5? Aside from other ST-related reasons we’ve had to wonder about this possibility, Bill and Ted’s story includes scenes of them interacting with themselves in their current timeline as well as in the past. They’re seen giving their previous selves advice or placing items in convenient locations so that their plan can succeed. 

How does this possibility relate, if at all, to the fact that the UD was “frozen in time” on Nov. 6th, 1983? There are no explicitly stated alternate dimensions in BTEE, but if Bill and Ted had failed, they would have ended up in a different timeline, and this would have created a paradox. Could our characters be in a similar situation? How are time and alternate dimensions related in ST?

Is it significant that Mike is also shown in a phone booth in S4? (In the Nevada desert calling NINA.) If ST5 builds on BTEE references, are these scenes foreshadowing S5 roles for Mike and Dustin in particular, or the Party as a whole? 

Dying to know what anyone else thinks too!

[strxnger-things]

I admit i didnt believe in birthdaygate/memorygate for a long time but after recent events with the st writers twitter i'm starting to believe, and after looking further into how it could be plot relevant i cant believe i never realised how important the shed scene is. like omfg its been right there the whole time???? vecna knows all of wills happiest memories???? ofc he is going to use them to his advantage somehow

(Referring to this post I made and the memorygate theory)

Heeeeey!

Yeah, I guess we'll see in Season 5 whether there's any kind of valid thread here (I'm personally on the fence with the whole thing, and just spitballing and having fun with it)

So far it's been established that Vecna "consumes" the thoughts and memories of the people he kills. They're kept in his mindscape. Everything that made them who they are as a person. And that's going to be an important plot point, especially surrounding Max in S5, imo.

But Vecna didn't kill any of the people present during the shed scene, so how can he do anything with their memories? Well, we know Vecna has the power to view memories without killing someone, but maybe he can actively manipulate/consume them without killing someone too. As in, it's not something he normally does (because why would he need to) but it's something he's capable of doing if he wanted. And Will is different from all of his other victims (save perhaps Billy). For some reason, he doesn't want to kill Will. He wants to play with him, possess his body, or potentially wants to win him over for reasons we don't know yet. We see El explore some of Billy's memories in S3, and Max's in S4. She's not possessing them, she's just able to enter their mindscapes and explore memories whilst she's in there. So we know that both El and Vecna have that power, it's a lab-kid thing that they can do. But Vecna also has this weird connection with time. So could he effectively alter memories and 'change the past', in a sense? Vecna's spent many hours levitating in the Creel House attic room, moving his consciousness from person to person and reading everyone in Hawkins like books. Watching them. Hearing everything. We visually see how it works in S4, just briefly before Vecna chooses Patrick as his next victim. So after Joyce, Jonathan and Mike tell Vecna what Will's happiest memories are (oops), maybe Vecna goes on to locate those exact memories and fuck around with them. And it's not just that those memories are Will's happiest memories - it's that Will's birthday and the rainbow ship drawing were most important to Joyce, it's building Castle Byers that was most important to Jonathan, it was playing D&D and first meeting Will that was most important to Mike.

I don't think it'd be one big event where Joyce, Jonathan and Mike all got simultaneous headaches one day, to be revealed in S5. But it could be a background scheme that Vecna's been slowly working on ever since the end of S2 after El sealed the gate.

Which is why as soon as we start S3, it's like Will has started to... fade? He's slowly being overlooked and forgotten. By S4, Will's birthday doesn't exist, Jonathan is distant and caught up in his own shit, and Mike seems to think his first real important connection with anyone was meeting El in the woods. There are still maaaany plotholes and questions with this theory, so I'm keeping a very open mind with it <3

[willel]

We don’t know the plot of the play or if it’s relevant to S5 but saying that connecting some current events to the past (and more specifically to the adults’) would be a complete retconning is a bit unfair. I remember watching S1 for the first time and wondering what happened between Joyce and Hopper, between Lonnie and Hopper, why has Joyce such a bad reputation in Hawkins but also such strong intuition, what happened to her aunt, why did Hopper feel cursed, and since it looked like Will was targeted, were all these things connected? I’m sure they didn’t have all the details mapped out back then but maybe a general idea (ala Freddy Krueger possibly). Maybe it’s bc I was less focused on the kids than others that I noticed these things.

I didn't say it was all retconning. I said specifically Joyce knowing Bob in high school would be a retcon when it's explicitly stated she did not know him.

With the play being canon and all, going back on that would indeed be a retcon. Not the worst one ever but it does mess with me a little when even smaller details like that get rerewitten later.

Like, Bob had a whole thing about Joyce being the it girl and he was a nobody in high school and was bullied, but now he's a well adjusted dude in the future dating Joyce Byers and he's content. Ya'know? I guess it still works even if they knew each other but....

I also said I'm confused a bit about the timelines. We don't know their exact ages but I thought Henry was a bit younger than Joyce and Hopper so connecting them directly is gonna be odd. I feel like the best route would be indirectly which I described in my other post. Writing in a personal grudge against them is a bit much. But a curse on the whole town because of something loosely related to them? Makes sense.

I think Hopper definitely knew Bob, he even calls him by his bully nickname "Bob the Brain" in season 2. I don't think Hopper himself was a bully but who knows.

Then you got Lonnie. Still don't think there's a direct connection to Henry at this point but I wouldn't be surprised if Lonnie bullied people in school such as Bob or Henry.

Anyway. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in Joyce and Hopper's past. I'm extremely curious since even Winona and David talk about it all the time. I just hope they keep everything in line since this is supposed to be a canon play. There is much to learn here but I will write some of it off if it starts contradicting the show itself like many of the comics.

While I am expecting to find out Henry's reasoning for all this, I don't expect we'll be learning why Will was targeted. They seem to be saving that for season 5. But I think we can get some clues.

I think we'll discover Henry's "trigger", what made him realize he had powers. We'll find out his moment that made him so sad and angry.

If I were to try and relate this to my own theories, such as Will having powers, it'd be pretty important to figure out what kind of person as potential and how to bring that out of someone in ways besides experimentation.

Finding out about Joyce's past in particular is a curious subject. They've hinted at family issues in the past. When Joyce was so persistent that she sensed Will around before but couldn't anymore, Lonnie immediately brings up, "Maybe it's like your aunt", implying her aunt "sensed" stuff or was generally a weirdo or had mental issues, which Joyce immediately denies.

That could be "connecting things to the past" leading to the reason why Will was targeted if Joyce passed along some potential powers to him or something.

I dunno. We shall have to see~

[wewebaggit]

everytime people trying to come up with something to excuse the writers's poor choices and ridiculous writing i yawn. ''oh vickie and argyle don't have surnames because it actually points to some secretive thing going on with them connected to other characters secretly on the show!!!'' and it is literally just that they do not have surnames because the duffers did not bother giving them surnames, because they did not care. literally that's it. ''i am sure X thing is going to be addressed in S5 i have hopes!! (insert an example how the duffers will suddenly now come up with a nice writing to fix their writing mistakes in the last season, when they have not manage to do that for 6 years). sorry not sorry to burst your bubble, but sometimes a writing is just that way because it is that way, not because of a secretive spectacular reason.

What surprises me is that there's no evidence in the past 4 seasons of such secrets unraveling. 4 seasons of pretty uncomplicated storytelling and suddenly they'll switch gears for season 5? Nah. 'Henry' next to Will's neck is the level of easter eggs they play with. Nothing more. It's cheeky not plot relevant. Like the project on Turing that they didn't even have the guts to expand on.

[iamyounicorn]

what is dta and where do i take a look at it?

... being asked to explain dta out loud... my one fear. I expected someone might ask what it is, but. Did you have to ask it on anon. Did you have to make me say it out loud, in front of all my friends and followers.....

Down To Agincourt is a series of fanfictions inspired by and set in the alternate timeline from Supernatural's s5 episode 4 The End. It's a kind of zombie apocalypse setting except the zombies only show up like three books later. The main plot is basically a repeat of what happened in the episode, but set moments after the episode happened and also irreversible and inexplicable (in the episode an angel sends Dean into a far and terrible future (2014) so he can learn a lesson, in dta no one has any idea what or who did it, or how, or why, and this is a plot point).

And there's a lot of things wrong with the world since the story started and we Don't Know how they're connected but they're definitely connected somehow. And the main character gets bitten by a fairy or something and almost dies of a fever and has a huge hallucination dream thing that keeps coming back into plot relevance except he doesn't seem to remember any of it. And there's a "subplot" about a shitty ancient manuscript about an adventure along the Nile like an epic of gilgamesh imitation but written by a guy who was really bad at writing and really horny about the hippos. And another "subplot" about one of their subordinates writing very poetic prose filled with metaphors in his mission reports. And there's so many original characters and concepts and lore.

And it's really really good and well written, it's really funny and also really serious and also really intense, and there's so many amazing moments, and quotes that sound like they could be from famous literature, like

And it makes me insane.

[ghosts-of-the-apocalypse]

As much as I adore the Kas!Eddie headcannon/theory i really can't help but feel that Will fits the Kas mould a lot more than Eddie.

Hold on tight and buckle in because I'm about to go on a tangent that I attempted to wrap up into coherent paragraphs.

[long post ahead] TLDR: Will has lots of things that back him up with previous seasons while with Eddie it's heavily dependent on the possibility of things happening in S5.

Okay first off a bit of background info to consider, we all know Stranger Things has a lot of connections with some elements of Dungeons and Dragons, that being said however, it's not a direct link. It's moreso akin to the characters in Stranger Things doing a UQuiz for each unique monster that comes out of the upside down and getting a DnD equivalent.

Examples: Demogorgon is a singular powerful demon lord with tentacles and a reptile-like appearance. Within ST Demogorgons have a more animalistic mental capacity and work as soldiers for the Mind Flair and/or 001.

It's all very loosey goosey in terms of comparisons. Most similarities between DnD and Stranger Things comes with personality and slight plot points as portrayed best with Vecna.

Okay then so how does that make Will more like Kas than Eddie?

Well the main argument for Eddie being Kas is that he was killed by (demo)bats which have some slight relevancy towards Kas as he is a Vampire, and the hope that should be reincarnated it is due to Vecna making him his "puppet" which Kas Eddie then could backstab. This main theory is heavily reliant on things that may possibly happen in S5 rather than anything else we've seen in previous season(s).

On the other hand (pun intended), we have Will. Will has been a central character since S1 and while he may not always be in the spotlight his place within the main cast is the key driving element of the first few seasons. In interviews, the Duffer Brothers have said that S5 will be focused on the original main cast and be exploring more of the upside down. Additionally, with the recent releases of the S5 posters and the ending scene of S4 we can tell Will will be a pivotal character next season.

Will has had a connection with Vecna ever since he was rescued from the Upsidedown and while S2 had us (and all the other characters) believe this connection severed, the ending of S4 says otherwise with Will ominously reaching for his neck being the tell-tale sign of feeling Vecna's presence.

That already gives us more to work with for the Kas theory, with Will being linked a lot more strongly with Vecna already than Eddie. Not to mention that Will has in fact previously been used as a weapon for the Upsidedown's side in S2. Will being so closely connected with Vecna and having been on the same side temporarily gives him more reason to be able to betray him.

Furthermore, Kas did not turn into a vampire only because he'd been bitten by bats, but by being trapped across the multiverse and being so close to the Negative Energy Plane for so long then being offered vampirism in exchange for being Vecna's chief lieutenant. Will getting stuck in the Upsidedown for a week, a place of desolation and monsters, seems pretty fitting. Like previously mentioned, obviously not all elements of the DnD characters will fit within the ST storyline just because that's how those parallels have always been but it does seem pretty close.

Not to mention with the new posters we have Will with pale eyes under the Mindflare, Will split face with Vecna, Will back to back with Vecna as well as him rising in a ray of light surrounded by demobats. That adds up quite a bit.

This is only a theory, so I'm not tryna imply this is 100% true or that Kas!Eddie is entirely out of the realm of possibility, only my own late night rambling thoughts. Hell, if it's a way to bring back Eddie in S5 then screw everything, I'll take it. It's just a theory like anyone elses. The idea of Eddie being a vampire is also metal as fuck so that's also a bonus.

[sleepy-moron]

Comicgayt

I think I’ve actually made a fairly solid connection between byler and one of the most iconic gay couples in marvel history, and I know I’m not the first person to make connections between Will and Billy Kaplan but this is a bit more in depth + some other interesting parallels and a little bit of memes……potential major plot spoilers for s5 if I’m right ahead tho

So I was checking some fan wikis to refresh my knowledge on Billy Kaplan because I am very confident that Will takes at least some inspiration from him (gay nerd with reality warping powers and a heavy association with magic+ it takes a while for people to realize just how fucking powerful he actually is) and the scarlet witch and I randomly had the idea that I should look into Teddy Altman (aka Hulkling aka Billy’s husband) to see if there were any significant parallels between him and Mike because I thought it would be interesting……and while there are a few other parallels that are pretty likely to just be coincidental…..there is a much bigger one that could be plausible as an intentional reference. I need to establish the direction I think Will’s story could go in season five first and then we can talk about the stuff that involves both pairs.

So Will is going to be targeted by Henry in some way, that much is obvious. It’s also a pretty reasonable assumption that Will can control/warp the upside down to some extent (although Will has no idea he can) and that’s why it is still stuck on the day Will vanished as a result of Will being unable to move past what happened to him. I brought up the scarlet witch earlier because she’s Billy’s mom but also because of the House of M storyline (aka literary what wandavision is based off of) from the comics. This involves someone (Wanda) with the ability to warp reality to create a perfect world for themselves to live in as a result of a breakdown and rewrites reality and the memories of everyone else around them to prevent people from destroying this new world.

While I don’t necessarily think Will is going to create a new reality on his own I do think he will be stuck in some version of a perfect world where he is either not responsible for its creation and thus is the only one who knows this illusion is an illusion, or is the one responsible and doesn’t know it which would mean another main character (Mike or El probably) to realize something is wrong and fix it, or Will consciously chooses to stay in the fake world and needs convincing to leave. This ties in with Billy as when it was discovered that his powers could reshape reality there was a conflict where multiple characters were unsure if Teddy was warped into being the ideal boyfriend or was straight up completely fabricated by Billy’s powers. Will’s idea of a perfect world would need to address him being in love with Mike, likely by him and Mike being together or having mutual feelings in the perfect world.

So that’s where I think the story could be going with Will next season, so now we can circle back around and talk about The big parallel: King Arthur and Merlin references. On the comic book side of things we have two boys (both of whom are gay) who are both massive nerds, one of which is secretly an alien prince that is basically destined to one day be king and pulls a special sword out of a stone on the request of a group of alien knights and is deemed by the knights to not be currently able to lead them because he is too loyal to his friends on earth to leave them behind or he wouldn’t be worthy of the sword. The other boy is a magician that unknowingly had reality warping powers (and is also a twin but that’s not super relevant here) a heavy association with wizards and is literally both married to the other boy and was also given the title of court magician a la Merlin by his husband. (Additionally Billy has been turned evil and in that state is referred to as demiurge which is a form of evil god responsible for the creation of the material world and a specific interpretation of this force is basically just what vecna is in canon)

In stranger things we also have two nerdy boys, one of which is Mike who is heavily compared to a paladin and a leader but is depicted wielding a sword and shield in the painting, and the shield literally has a crown symbol on it and has some other evidence suggesting he gets a sword in s5. He also is way too self sacrificing and protective of his friend to the point he literally would rather throw himself off a cliff then living with the guilt of being the reason his friends got hurt. The other boy is Will who is gay and in love with his best friend, has a load of twin imagery with El, is very likely to have been the reason the upside down is mirroring Hawkins and is frozen in time, and has heavy wizard theming with an emphasis on him and Mike being a team and who has been literally possessed by Vecna.

So given that it’s possible Will and Mike draw inspiration from both Billy and Teddy and also Arthur and Merlin this makes a specific poster very interesting in my opinion:

So we’ve all lost our minds over this image, and if we look at some comic covers of Billy and Teddy…….

This is a really fun coincidence but I just think it’s neat and I wanted to share it with you!

Ps: These two also had romantic subtext that fans picked up on way sooner then it was revealed in story as well…..it’s almost like byler might be romantic y’all/s

[call-jupiter]

committing myself to attempting a chapter in the form of a true-crime doc for The Sycamore Tree lmfao should be fun but we’ll have to see how it goes. I like challenging myself and trying my hand at a variety of writing styles and this fic being my first rookie fic AND being as long and as… involved… as it is makes it a good sandbox for some experimentation. might scrap it if it pisses me off but the attempt will be made. I already know exactly what ground it’s gonna cover and everything so I’m looking forward to putting those chapters in proper writing (not just an outline) so I can really get to work on this one knowing fully how the relevant chapters before it panned out. it’s planned and all but I need to actually finish the chapters first bc I’m not… always great at following my own outlines. lol.

since I’ve been trying to flesh it out with subplots and side action and new characters and bottle chapters and things my outline has come out feeling structured very much like a season of television. so I thought it’d be cool to try and take one of the show’s unique episode formats and incorporate it in. turning Sycamore into something of like a… what-if for s5 on the whole rather than just a canon divergence that happens to start in s5? like I want it to be Large Scale. if my readers and I are committing to 40 chapters that range from 7-10k words each, I might as well use that space to its full potential.

I’m rambling. but what y’all are gonna learn about me the more and more active I get in the fanfic scene for this show is that there’s nothing I love more than using my socmed platforms to pontificate my little fic ideas instead of making private notes. do it on my twt all the time for bbc merlin bc that’s the place I promo those works. tumblr’s become a bit of a home base for my rookie content (which is just Sycamore rn but hopefully more in the future since I’m enjoying creating this one so much). that means these random little musings about potential fics or directions for those wips are mostly gonna land here. feel free to ignore them. or, hell, if I post some off-hand concept that you like go ahead and lift it for your own works. I think that’s why I like making notes this way tbh bc then if an idea is dead-on-arrival for me it could theoretically find life in the hands of another writer who came across it. like paying it forward or whatever but in fic prompts. inspiring myself and hopefully other writers in the process—since I know coming up w an idea is half the battle. might be a bit presumptuous but it’s like if I do it this way maybe I can make that part a bit easier on my future self or on someone else. idk.

anyway. love y’all a lot. like a lot a lot. the support is still mind-blowing to me. I don’t think I’ll ever quite wrap my head around it. very surreal. so hopefully you can bear w me and my aimless posts like this and my writing experiments that may or may not succeed. I’m so proud of this work so far but it’s such new territory for me and it really feels like it’s asking a lot of the audience to stick w it since it’s… so much. like I want the diversions from the main arc to feel natural and engaging. it’s difficult tho bc I’m not a professional or whatever. I’m not even someone w an english/writing/literature background or something. I’m just a pharmacology student writing some silly little fanfiction in my spare time.

what I mean to say is that I’m trying my damnedest to make it worth your time to read it all. even the parts that aren’t chenford or aren’t connected to the main plot. like they’re there bc I feel like it adds to the experience not bc I’m trying to pad the length. and ik that in my mind but sometimes I see the current word count or my projections for the final word count based on the average of the finished chapters and I question how it comes off. like I worry a bit that adding stuff like that could seem superfluous even tho it’s not my intention. I don’t want Sycamore to be long for the sake of being long. I want it to be long so it can feel like a whole universe. like a highly fictionalized thing still grounded somewhat in reality. not just a one-track story to get characters straight from point A to point B. you know?

idk what I’m saying anymore but. it all makes sense in my head. I just have so many thoughts about this work and I’m also just so excited to write it and publish it and let you see it but it’s very slow-going bc I want it to be as good as possible.

anyway. weird little draft note thing over. there was a point to this somewhere but I definitely lost it midway. lmfao. this is what happens when I forget to take my adhd meds and can’t focus enough to actually write but still want to feel like I’m making progress. whoops.

[flodaya]

so many of the conflicts this season revolve around relationship drama, from the isi/lou/consti love triangle, to the zoe/finn open relationship drama, and the drama that's definitely going to unfold between isi and sascha about the consti kiss. each of these storylines we're bad for different reasons, but as a whole it's just annoying because it feels like tv shows refuse to acknowledge that teens lives don't revolve around romance.

i'm not saying that the media shouldn't portray romance at all, because scenes like the eva/jonas and nora/josh break-ups showed the importance of communication and prioritizing yourself. and the zoe/finn open relationship plot could be so cool if it actually shows good communication instead of the direction i fear druck is going to take.

but there were so many other storylines this season could have highlighted, like gender identity or bullying or toxic friendships, that are incredibly relevant to teens who are just beginning to discover themselves, and instead these plots were sidelined for love triangle after love triange after love triangle. idk i guess what i'm trying to say is that romance is way overhyped in teen shows when in reality, when i was in high school, less than half the people in my grade were in relationships and most people didn't even want a relationship

tbh that's why i liked new gen so much because even though romances were major plot lines, there were other important parts of the story that were relatable

oh yes absolutely, actually this was the reason why i loved new gen's girl squad more than old gen's because one of my major complaints was how the girl squad only ever talked about boys, and i'm sorry to have ruined it for you now because once you know you can't unsee it

but the cashqueens are really well-rounded friend group, and i love how in s5 they were the main love story really, i love josh but the season could have totally worked without him, yet the center of the story were the cashqueens and nora finding genuinely supportive and loving friends

fatou's season was romance heavy but we expected it, plus a black lesbian character getting a whole romcom storyline is just honestly what any lesbian and/or black girl out there deserves; but even while the main storyline was her and kieu my's relationship, there was still a heavy focus on friendships and the cashqueens and again that storyline was almost completely unconnected to any romance plotline, like i know people are still fighting about this scene but i love how the two grand gestures fatou planned were for her platonic best friend and her girlfriend, literally demonstrating how platonic and romantic love are equally worth!!

while i think "ismail's season shouldn't have had a love interest" is a whole different discussion, i totally agree the way they are handling all the romance stuff definitely isn't working and yeah it's because they seem to be unable to tell a story without forcing romance or sexual tension into the scene? a reason why the gender identity and umut clips are the best because they seem to be the only ones not connected to any romance plotline, if only they didn't make up only about 1/10 of the season....

again: IF it turns out ismail is asexual it would explain so many things in retrospect, like this heavy focus on sex and love that annoys us also annoys ismail and makes them uncomfortable, would be a nice parallel (its not working rn and won't make the season an all time best but might save if from being worse than a skamfr season)

[amuelia]

How do you think Roose will meet his demise? Or will he survive? What's your best Roose end game predictions?

Thank you for the question! This will be a long post under the readmore, going into my thoughts on the show ending and exploring what the books may have set up in regards to themes and characterization, as well as a bit of general analysis of Roose' story arc in a Dance with Dragons (and some speculation about Ramsay as well).

If you click on the readmore i will have divided the post into sections with bolded Headers, if you want to only read my specific endgame ideas you can skip ahead to the "His Endgame?" section.

In The Show

The show had him get killed by Ramsay in s6, which informs a lot of the fandom speculation about this storyline.

I am not a fan of the show's scenario as it was both similar to tywin and tyrion as well as a mirror of robb's death; it would also be offscreen in the books since neither of the characters are PoVs and Ramsay would need to do the act in secret. This would ultimately undercut Roose' role and impact, being a death scene that is not very unique and also isn't shown to the reader directly. Since no PoV is even in Winterfell currently, we would just hear of it from afar and not witness the consequences.

The show also has a different dynamic in the Bolton storyline, emphasizing Ramsay as the "main character" of this arc, and elevating him to the main villain for s5-6 to fill Joffrey's shoes as an evil character played by a very charismatic actor. Ramsay's show writing is informed by the needs of a TV setting that wants shocking moments and capitalizes on "fan favourite" actors; his rising importance in the show thus is not necessarily an indicator of his book importance. The show was also missing many central characters like the northern lords and the Frey men in Winterfell.

The show had a tendency to kill off characters early when they wanted to cull storylines or had no plans to adapt more of the character's story (like Stannis, Barristan, possibly the Tyrells...); In Mance Rayder we have the most obvious example, where they killed him off for real in a scene that in the book was a misdirection. We also have characters like Jorah where it appears the showrunners had their own choice of how they want his storyline to end, even if Grrm has his own ending in mind.

"For a long time we wanted Ser Jorah to be there at The Wall in the end," writer Dave Hill says. "The three coming out of the tunnel would be Jon and Jorah and Tormund. But [...] Jorah should have the noble death he craves defending the woman he loves." - Dave Hill for Entertainment Weekly

So a death in the show does not need to be an indicator that the books will feature an equivalent scene, even if it gives a hint as to what may happen. By s5 the show has become its own beast, and the butterfly effects from radical changes they made as well as the different characterizations results in the show having to cater to its own needs in many cases when it gets to resolving a plotline.

"We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents." - Benioff and Weiss for the s5 DVD commentary, on Indira Varma's casting as Ellaria

In The Books

(Since this post was getting out of hand in length a lot of these arguments are a little shortened/not as in-depth as i'd like! Feel free to inquire more via ask if something is unclear or you disagree)

In the books i find it hard to make a concrete guess as to how it will end. Occam's razor would be to assume the show sort of got it right and that it will vaguely end the same, which could very well happen and i will not discount the possibility; Ramsay is cruel, desires the Dreadfort rule, and is a suspected kinslayer and has no qualms to commit immoral violence.

"Ramsay killed [his brother]. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Reek III, aDwD

Reek saw the way Ramsay's mouth twisted, the spittle glistening between his lips. He feared he might leap the table with his dagger in his hand [to attack his father]. - Reek III, aDwD

Arguments against this or for a different endgame come down to interpretations of the themes in the story arc and opinions on dramatic structure/grrm's writing, and are thus very subjective.

The way the story currently is going, Ramsay killing Roose treats Roose almost as a plot device; his death brings no change or development to Ramsay's character as we already know his motivations and cruelty align with such an act, and we can assume that he would feel no remorse about it either. The results of such a scene would be firmly on a story level, as it brings political changes and moves the plot along into a specific direction. Roose himself cannot have any relevant character development about it as he does not have a PoV and we would not be able to witness his reaction from the outside.

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” - William Faulkner, often quoted by Grrm

Further, killing his father is very difficult to pull off in secret (Roose is frequently described as very cautious, and employs many guardsmen). And even if Ramsay pulls it off (people often interpret Ramsay as Roose' blind spot, assuming he might be caught by surprise, not expecting Ramsay would bite the hand that feeds him), Roose is the one that holds his entire alliance together; The Freys would be alienated by Ramsay who would antagonize Walda and her son as his rivals, The Ryswell bloc appears to dislike Ramsay (especially Barbrey), and the other northmen are implied to not even like Roose himself. Killing Roose would quickly combust the entire northern faction, and hinder Ramsay's further plans (another reason why I am not convinced of a book version of the "Battle of Bastards"). Though this might of course, if we look at it from the other side, be grrm's plan to quickly dissolve this plot and move the northern story forwards.

"Ramsay will kill [Walda's children], of course. [...] [She] will grieve to see them die, though." - Reek III, aDwD

"How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots." - Reek III, aDwD

"Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' death at Ramsay's hand also removes him thematically from the Red Wedding, as we can assume such a death might have happened regardless of his participation in the event (seeing as Ramsay is getting provoked by Roose constantly in normal dialogue, and has a general violent disposition). Roose already took Ramsay in before aGoT started, and married Walda very early in the war, which is already most of the buildup that the show's scenario had. It also has little to do with the The North Remembers plot except set dressing, since the northmen are presumably neither collaborating with/egging on Ramsay nor would they appreciate the development.

Themes: Ned Stark and the rule over the North

Roose is treated as a foil to Eddard; They are often contrasted in morals and ruling styles, while also having many superficial similarities that further connect them (they are seen as cold by people, grey eyed, patriarchs of rivalling northern houses, etc...).

Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. They reminded him of the day at King's Landing when Ned Stark had found him seated on the Iron Throne. - Jaime IV, aSoS

They both have a "bastard son" that they handle very differently; Roose treating Ramsay in the way that is seen as common in their society. Ramsay and Jon as a comparison are meant to show that Catelyn had a reason to see a bastard as a threat (since Domeric was antagonized by his bastard brother), but also shows that her suggested plan for Jon would not have stopped any danger either (as Ramsay being raised away from the castle didn't help).

And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, aGoT

"Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." - Reek III, aDwD

It appears to me that Roose' story functions in some ways as an inversion to Ned. He makes an attempt to grab a power he was not destined to (becoming warden of the north), where Ned did not want the responsiblity thrust upon him ("It was all meant for Brandon. [...] I never asked for this cup to pass to me." - Cat II, aGoT). Where Ned rules successfully and his northmen honor his legacy ("What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." - The Turncloak, aDwD), the Boltons are largely hated and there are several plots conspiring against them ("Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die." - The King's Prize, aDwD).

It seems possible to me that in terms of their family and legacy, Roose might also live through an inverted version of Ned's story; where Ned died first, leaving his family behind, Roose already lived to see the death of his wives and trueborn heir, and might thus also live to see Ramsay's death. Ned leaves behind well raised children and a North who still respects his name, and even though he dies it will presumably all be "in good hands" in the end (in broad strokes, obviously this is all much more morally complex). Roose however built up a bad and toxic legacy, and also built his way of life around evading consequences; it makes sense to me that he would be forced by the story to finally endure all the consequences of his actions and witness the fall of his house firsthand. After all we already have Tywin who fulfils the purpose of dying before his children while his legacy falls to ruins, and a Feast for Crows explores this aspect thoroughly.

Roose' arc in A Dance With Dragons

The story repeatedly builds up the situation unravelling around Roose, and him slowly losing a grip on it and becoming more stressed and anxious.

Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks? - Reek II, aDwD

Roose Bolton said nothing at all. But Theon Greyjoy saw a look in his pale eyes that he had never seen before—an uneasiness, even a hint of fear. [...] That night the new stable collapsed beneath the weight of the snow that had buried it. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness." His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. - Theon I, aDwD

It also directly presents him as a parallel to Theon's rule in aCoK, who similarly experienced a very unpopular rule and his subjects slowly turning against him. Presumably, the point of this comparison will not just be "Ramsay comes in at the end and unexpectedly whacks them on the head". Both Theon and Roose invited Ramsay into their lives, giving him more power than he deserves, and causing Ramsay to make choices that increasingly alienate others from them (the death of the miller's boys for example has repercussions for both Theon and Roose). Grrm is likely steering this towards a difference in how they will deal with this situation.

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. - a Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again." - The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known?" - Reek III, aDwD

Roose' arc is deeply connected to the relations he shares to the other northern lords, which has been heavily impacted by the Red Wedding. It stands to reason that they are going to be an important part of his downfall, and we see many hints of them plotting to betray him.

The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." - Davos IV, aDwD

Themes: Stannis and kinslaying

The books set up Roose and Stannis as foils as well; Both lack charisma and have trouble winnning the people's support, Stannis and Roose both parallel and contrast Ned, Stannis appears as a "lesser Robert" where Roose is a "lesser Ned", Stannis represents the fire where Roose represents the ice, both struggle over dominion in a land that doesnt particularly want either of them, etc... What i find interesting is how they are contrasted over kinslaying:

"Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." - Davos II, aCoK

"I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III, aCoK

Stannis is set up as someone who is very thorough and strict in following his own code and his "duty", even if he does not like what it forces him to do.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady." - Davos IV, aSoS

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends." - Jon I, aCoK

Roose however is frequently characterized as someone who tries to get as much as he can while avoiding negative consequences, and who does not have a consistent moral code and instead bends rules to his benefit to be the most comfortable to him.

It is often theorized that Stannis will end up burning his daughter Shireen; the Ramsay issue might then serve to contrast the two men. If Grrm intends it to be compared by the reader, I can see it going two ways: Either Roose will be forced to finally act in a drastic way after avoiding his responsibility in regards to Ramsay and he will be forced to get rid of his son, making him break the only moral hurdle he has presented adhering to during the story (though analyzing his character, the kinslaying taboo is probably less a sign of moral fortitude and more him using the guise of morals to explain a selfish motivation). Or he might not act against Ramsay and suffer the consequences, presenting an interesting moral situation where some readers might consider his action "better" or more relatable than Stannis', breaking up the otherwise very black and white moral comparison between the two men. It serves as an interesting conflict of the morality of kinslaying compared to what readers might see as a moral obligation of getting rid of a monster such as Ramsay; contrasting Shireen whose death would not be seen as worth it by most. Ramsay as a bastard (who was almost killed at birth if he hadnt been able to prove his paternity) also makes for an interesting verbal parallel with the bastard Edric Storm, and might be used for a look at the utilitarian principle of killing a child (baby ramsay/edric) to save countless people from suffering that underpinned Edric's story.

"As Faulkner says, all of us have the capacity in us for great good and for great evil, for love but also for hate. I wanted to write those kinds of complex character in a fantasy, and not just have all the good people get together to fight the bad guy." - Grrm

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" - Eddard VIII, aGoT

"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" - "Everything," said Davos, softly. - Davos V, aSoS

However Grrm decides to present these conflicts or which actions the characters will take in the end, it will result in interesting discussion and analysis for the readers.

His Endgame?

Looking at the trends of the past books, it is probably going to be hard to predict any specific outcome; every book introduces new characters and plot elements that were impossible to predict from the last book even if their thematic importance or setup was aptly foreshadowed.

Roose has a lot of plot importance and characterization that has, in my opinion, not yet been properly resolved in a way that would be unique and poignant to the specific purpose his character appears to fulfil. However I also have a bias in that i did not like the show's writing of that scene which makes me averse to see a version of it in the books, and i really like Roose as a character and want to see him have more scenes in the next book(s). This leads me to discount plot speculation that cuts his character arc short offscreen early. Roose is only a side character; however, i have trust in grrm's writing abilities and that he would give him a proper sendoff that feels satisfying to a fan of the character.

"…even the [characters] who are complete bastards, nasty, twisted, deeply flawed human beings with serious psychological problems… When I get inside their skin and look out through their eyes, I have to feel a certain — if not sympathy, certainly empathy for them. I have to try to perceive the world as they do, and that creates a certain amount of affection." — George Martin

Considering my earlier analyis, there is a case to be made for Roose killing Ramsay; however it appears grrm might have a different endgame in mind for Ramsay, foreshadowed in Chett's prologue:

There'd be no lord's life for the leechman's son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling's sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow's taken it all from me . . . the bloody snow . . . - Chett, aSoS

I tend to think something might happen to Roose/the Bolton bloc later in the book that would cause Ramsay to attempt to flee the scene again like he did back in aCoK fleeing Rodrik's justice; perhaps Ramsay is sent out to battle but then flees it like a coward, or he sees his cause as lost. This time, the fleeing and potentially disguised Ramsay would not make it out to safety though, and get killed without being recognized as Ramsay, dying forgotten. This would serve as dramatic irony since Ramsay so strongly desired to be recognized and respected as a Lord of Bolton, without being too on the nose.

As for Roose, i could see him getting captured and somehow brought to justice (either when someone takes Winterfell or in some sort of battle). I see it unlikely that he will be backstabbed like Robb was, because it seems very "eye for an eye" and ultimately doesn't teach much of a lesson except "he had it coming"; But the various people conspiring against him could lead to his capture by betraying him (giving a payoff to the northern conspiracies and the red wedding). I would find a scene of him standing trial interesting since i believe we didn't have one of these for a true non-pov villain yet, and it would be an interesting confrontation that he cannot escape from (he also loves to talk so it would be a good read to see him make a case for himself).

I assume Roose will be out of the picture when the Other plot finally properly kicks into gear (whether dead or "in prison"). With Stannis as a false Azor Ahai and Roose as a false Other (with his pale, cold features), their struggle in the north seems to be a representation of the false "Game of Thrones" that distracts people from the "real threat" of the Others.

As always this is just my opinion, and it could all go very differently in the books! There could always be something that completely uproots my analysis and goes into a direction i did not expect from the material we had; But i have fate that Grrm as a writer will deliver and give me something i can be satisfied with.

[shasta-reese]

Finale Part 1 (6x19)

I can't believe this is the last time I'll be writing an episode critique for Supergirl, it feels surreal. But nonetheless I have thoughts and I will voice them. For once I am writing this while watching the full episode so I can do this chronologically for once, I already know what happens from watching clips on Youtube but there might've been scenes that weren't available so here ya go, one last ride:

- Lex is a great villain but I still hate that he's stuck around for so long, personally I would've liked his arc to have ended in season 4 as more of character to highlight Lena's character development. Instead of this Lex/Nyxly bullcrap they put on. I also hate that we have Nyxly as the main villain for the season and she's great but somehow they force Lex into her plot. Just wished they left Nyxly as the solo villain of the season

- You know ngl kinda wish they went through with letting Alex kill Lex with her bare hands lol.

- I get Alex and Kelly's mindset of doing whatever it takes to get Esme back obviously but in getting Esme back by giving up the Totems would've been pointless cuz the first thing Nyxly probably would've done with the All Stone would have been to kill them

- I do appreciate that Nyxly really doesn't have any intention to hurt Esme in any way. She just wants the totem and its unfortunately connected to Esme. Like the whole episode she's trying to make Esme as comfortable as possible and preventing Lex from hurting her, it was nice (yes I understand she kidnapped Esme but you know what I mean)

- I really don't understand why they introduced the Lex/Nyxly romance arc since according to what we've seen, everything that Lex stands for is opposite to what Nyxly stands for. It also shows that that Lex doesn't really know Nyxly at all considering he keeps proposing things that Nyxly would never do (eg. hurt an innocent child, trust any man who has hurt women). Also how far in the future is this Lex from?

- Like they say this Lex is from the future but did he live in the future? or is he our present day Lex who went to the future and saw his future self with Nyxly? And if he's from the future then where the fuck is present day Lex? Also they said he had 31st century tech which also doesn't make sense cuz that's 10 centuries from now so it's impossible for Lex to still be alive then. Nyxly might be cuz she's an imp but still, idek did I miss something?

- Seeing Lena and Andrea interact is always so interesting because they are essentially childhood friends. It's such a shame that they never fully utilised their relationship in the plots. It would've been so relevant with Lena finding out she has magic and Andrea also having magic, Andrea being isolated, making terrible decisions is like how Lena was in S5. They could've leaned on each other and rebuilt their friendship like we thought since that scene in 5x19. But all we got were like 2 bland phone calls and 2 pep talks from Lena to Andrea. Truly a waste of talent considering they had Julie and Katie playing the characters.

- I fricking love Lillian (as a character, she's a horrible person). Just her laugh at the prospect of Lex being in love is exactly how everyone else reacted when they revealed the plotline. Ah Lillian, how I love how you tower over your ego-maniac son.

- Hey Nyxly, babes how 'bout we not traumatise Esme further by telling her your dad was a mad man who tried to slit your throat as a child, huh? thank yew

- Man, Chyler in that armoury scene was great, just the pure emotion of it all makes me wish we had more scenes at this level of intensity.

- God, Brainy and Nia really have my fucking heart :')

- Lol the Three Fates just reminds of Charlie from LoT. I miss them

- Alex and Kara arguing just makes me mad cuz like yeah Alex, Kara's plan might not work but handing over the Totems will also likely be the cause of your deaths cuz Lex would kill you all without a second thought. No plan is a guarantee but seeing as how Lena could still use magic at the bridge, ya'll could've thought of a plan eventually. Also Alex telling Kara she would never forgive her if something happen to Esme is a little bit of a low blow

- Lillian and Nyxly meeting was sure... something. Also thank you Lillian again for emphasising that Lex is incapable of love which makes the whole plotline make absolute zero sense. I do love Lillian manipulating Nyxly so effortlessly, just one convo and she was able to mess her up lol. Really shows how good Lillian is at manipulation.

- I'm in by no means an expert here but pretty sure basically knocking out the sun for SIX MONTHS is NOT just a small drawback

- Lena once again seems to be the only person who is speaking reason and yet again is ignored. Do you hear her Kara? Do you? Yes you have to do something but this ain't it

- How much is Lex paying that man to still be his butler? Like, I get it you need a job but surely there are other rich, white men who need a butler who don't want to destroy the universe.

- Honestly I thought after the scene where Nyxly puts herself between Esme and Lex that her arc would end differently. I feel like at that point Nyxly could have returned Esme even without getting the Love Totem, because in that moment we saw that Nyxly is capable of caring for someone else. But who knows...

- Seeing Lex get "dumped" and read for filth was so satisfying

- Another thing, didn't they say that at the bridge all powers and tech wouldn't work but they still used tech and Nia had her powers??? Did I misunderstand something?

- It's honestly hilariously bad writing that they were fully ready to air strike Kara with the military but when Kara stopped using the sun and said sorry, they were just like 'oh okay, all good I guess, bye Supergirl'. Also how are they continuously evading any type of repercussions from the government? Like they've been causing so much chaos and property damage to the city the whole season, how are the Superfriends getting off scot free

- I know its supposed to be serious but I can't help but laugh a little at them basically playing hot potato with the All Stone. This fight was still better than the final fight in 6x20 though

- I really wish Lillian died saving Lena instead of Lex but its still in character for her to save any of her children tbh

- Love how they just never explain why Nyxly and Lex become lizard people after using the All Stone 🙃. Way to waste your money to CGI that, it was just unnecessary they served zero purpose

- But thank you SupergirlCW for Lena witness yet another parents death, let's just add that to the long list of trauma Lena already had. For fucks sake, Lena really had to witness both of her mothers' deaths huh. I know she's not dead yet but still

- Orlando's speech was great :)

Well that's the end of this episode. Personally I feel like this was what 6x18 should've been, a build up to the finale and not part of the 2-hour finale. It's not that bad of an episode if you overlook some obvious plotholes like the whole bridge thing. I initially wanted to write this for the entire 2-hour finale but this way too long already so I'm posting 6x20 separately. So that's all for this ep.

Goodbye, for now.

[korra-the-red-lion]

Supergirl 6x9: Dream Weaver.

Hello everyone! This is a little later because I had a random mandatory class to attend this week and then had a whole day of workshops. ANYWAY, so how did I find this episode of Supergirl? Let’s find out. As always, SPOLIERS AHEAD.

A Kelly and Nia focused episode? I’m already giving this episode 5 stars based on that alone lol.

But seriously, the episode starts off with game night. Dansen is crushing whatever game they’re playing and it’s super cute. I think J’onn, who is technically a psychic, accused Alex and Kelly of being ones. It was a very cute moment for the Superfriends.

Kara not participating because Lena isn’t there is sending me through all kinds of loops of hell.

Speaking of, I didn’t mind that Brainy and Lena weren’t in this episode. I think by having the smaller numbers to work with, it allowed the focus to really stay on the two major plots running through this episode. I know some people were disappointed, but I actually like the decision.

Okay, so major plotline one is Kelly’s story. She’s working now as a social worker and the way that she instantly connected to the children was so beautiful. Also, that young girl is definitely Dansen’s future child, and I’m effing here for it. She was really funny and I’m glad that the ‘Alex wants to be a mom’ storyline hasn’t been forgotten this season (looking at you, s5).

Kelly and Kara teaming up to tackle the prison was awesome. But holy smokes, I couldn’t stop laughing when Kara used her eye lasers in front of the cop at the desk and SHE DIDN’T NOTICE? SHE DIDN’T NOTICE THE HOLE IN HER MUG. Not only that, then Kara zips behind the counter to investigate and nobody notices because that woman is apparently the only person who works the counters. I seriously couldn’t stop laughing, but it a good way.

I really liked that Kelly knew right away that there was some shady shit going down at the prison and the foster home. She ain’t a fool. Her riding the motorcycle into the night was awesome and I loved that she swiped that video feed no problem.

Okay, Nia for a bit. Nia is having recurring dreams about her mother because she very very desperately wants to see her again. Nyxly is back and is somehow in Nia’s dreamscape. This was vaguely explained but whatever, I’ll let it slide. Nyxly is trying to team up with Nia to get back into the human world, and Nia is too smart to fall for that.

Also, the dreamscape looked like a Taylor Swift music video.

Kara is working to stop the prisoners because they’re stealing stuff to build a bomb. I actually liked the whole factory part where she appeals to their humane side instead of just busting skulls. Kara’s hope speeches(TM) can be silly at times, but I liked it here. I do wish that they did some callback to s4 in someway, since the whole anti-alien thing was such a strong theme and Kara was a victim there too, but overall I thought it was a touching moment.

I forgot to mention this earlier but part of Kara’s storyline is her doing journalism again and I’m very happy. Andrea is a super crappy boss though, lol. She is the one who ruined CatCo yet she’s being such a crazy person about the ratings. Also, they moved up from 8th to 3rd this episode, so obviously they’re doing something right. But Andrea also gets bonus points for letting Nia take a mental health day. We stan a crappy boss who cares?

William being a work buddy and strictly a work buddy works here. I actually didn’t mind the team up for the most part. The only time I did was when Kara needed William to point out that the obviously shady prison warden was shady. It was one of those moments where they made Kara dumber than she is.

Kara does an interview to expose the corruption. I think overall this was a bit clunky in execution, but it was still a solid effort.

I teared up when Kelly reunited Joey and Orlando. Then I full on cried when Esme called Kelly a Guardian Angel. It was so nice. Then I teared up again when Alex gave Kelly Jimmy’s old Guardian stuff. Yay for Kelly!

Nia ends up ignoring the owl (who is obviously suppose to represent her mom) and agrees to work with Nyxly because she is so desperate to see her mom one more time. It’s really heartbreaking and I knew that it was coming. I think this storyline was the weakest one, but it still hit home. I’m curious to see where this ends up.

WHERE DID M’GANN GO?

OH, I also forgot this earlier. Alex goes out onto the balcony and encourages Kelly. It’s a really touching scene. I loved it. Then I realized it paralleled a scene that Lena and Kara had. I swear to effing God, this show.

So overall, this was a strong episode. CatCo felt relevent again. Kelly Olsen shined. Nia got to have some spotlight. Kara is realizing that both Kara and Supergirl bring something to the table. I’m excited for next week’s episode! 

[joneswuzhere]

hello join me in thinking about some books and authors that are, or might be, part of s5′s intertextuality

5.10 in particular offered specific shout outs, and also u know i’m always wondering what might be ahead so i have some ideas on that:

- first, as mentioned in a previous ask post, i know i wasn’t alone in keeping an eye out for 5.10 parallels to the lost weekend (1945) the film that gave episode 1.10 its name and several themes - or to the 1944 book by charles r jackson which the film is based on

- s5 has not been shy about revisiting earlier seasons, especially s1. altho i feel that 1.10′s parallels to the lost weekend centered characters other than jughead (mostly betty), a 1.10-5.10 connection involving jughead and themes from jackson’s story (addiction, writers block, self reflection) seemed v possible if not inevitable

- but like,, , for a hot minute after the ep, i was really stumped on understanding how anything from the book or film could apply, even tho the pieces were almost all there

- jackson’s protagonist don birnam goes thru and comes out the other side of a harrowing days-long drinking binge that could be compared to jughead’s one-night hallucinogenic writing retreat

- but jughead is struggling primarily with traumatic memories, not addiction and self control like birnam. and tho drinking activates birnam’s creativity, it paralyzes his writing as he gets lost in fantasies; he’s never published anything. jughead’s drug trip recreates circumstances that already helped him write one successful book. even the rat that startles him mid-high doesn’t line up with birnam’s withdrawal vision of a dying mouse, symbolic of his horror at his own self-destruction thru alcohol

- and maybe the most visible discordance: in the film there’s a romantic motif around a typewriter. first it’s an object of shame; birnam’s failure to write, tied up with his drinking, makes him flee his relationship. he tries to pawn the typewriter for booze money and finally a gun when shooting himself feels easier than getting sober. but with the help of relentless encouragement from girlfriend helen, he quits drinking, commits to her, and focuses on typing out the story he’s dreamt of writing. rd goes so far to avoid setting any comparable scenario that jughead has brought a wholeass printer into the bunker so there can still be a physical manuscript to cover in blood by the end, even without his own typewriter. the subtle detail of his laptop bg image is a little less noticeable than his avoidance of betty’s gift

- tabitha might be closer to a parallel than jughead is, but she’s still no helen. both refuse to take advantage of the inebriated men in their care, but birnam takes advantage of helen, financially and emotionally. jughead refused a loan from the tate family and now has resolved to deal with his shit before he considers a relationship with tabitha. instead of helen’s relentless and unwelcomed attempts to get birnam sober, tabitha reluctantly agrees to help jughead trip safely bondage escape notwithstanding. she even helps him get the drugs.

- whatever potentials exist for parallels to jackson’s story, they were not explored for this episode. ok so why tf am i even talking about this? what was there instead?

-  i have arrived at the point

- s5 has been revisiting s1, not directly but with a twist. and jughead’s agent samm pansky is back. u may recall, pansky is named for sam lansky

- jughead’s trip-thru-trauma is a story device tapped straight from lansky’s book ‘broken people’

- lansky is like if a millenial john rechy wrote extremely LA-flavored meta but just about himself no jk very like a modern successor to charles r jackson. both play with the boundary between memoir and fiction. lansky is gay; jackson wrote his lost weekend counterpart as closeted and remained closeted himself until only a few years before his death. both write with emotional clarity and self-scrutiny on the experiences of addiction, sobriety, and the surrounding issues of shame and self worth

- i feel like a fool bc after this ep i had been thinking about de quincey and his early writings on addiction (c.1800s), but i failed to carry the thought in the other direction, to contemporary writers in the genre, to make this connection sooner

- lansky’s second book, broken people, follows narrator ‘sam’, mid-20s, super depressed, hastled by his agent to write a decent follow-up to his first book, but too busy struggling with his self-worth and baggage from several past relationships. desperate, he takes up an offer to visit a new age shaman who promises to fix everything wrong with him in a matter of days. not to over simplify it but he literally spends a weekend doing psychedelics and hallucinating about his exes. jughead took note

- unless u want me to hurl myself into yet another dissertation about queer jughead, i think his parallel to sam - who, unlike jughead, has considerable financial privilege and whose anxieties center on body dysmorphia, hiv scares, and his own self-centeredness - pretty much ends there

- But,, the gist of the book could not be more harmonius with a major theme shared by the 2 films that inform the actual hallucination part of jughead’s bunker scene: mentally reframing past relationships to get closure + confronting trauma head-on in order to move forward

- so that’s neat. what other book and author stuff was in 5.10?

- stephen king and raymond carver get name dropped. i’m passingly familiar with them both but u bet i just skimmed their wiki bios in case anything relevant jumped out

- like jughead, carver was a student (later a lecturer) at the iowa writers workshop. also the son of an alcoholic and one himself

- i recall carver’s ‘what we talk about when we talk about love’ is what jughead was reading in 2.14 ‘the hills have eyes’ after he finds out about the first time betty kissed archie (at that time he does not respond as would any of carver’s characters)

- this collection of carver stories deals especially with infidelity, failings of communication, and the complexities and destructiveness of love. to unashamedly quote the resource that is course hero, ‘carver renders love as an experience that is inherently violent bc it produces psychic and emotional wounds.’ very fun to wonder about the significance of this collection within the s2 episode and in jughead’s thoughts. and maybe now in the context of the s5 state of relationships. or, at least, the state of jughead’s writing as seen by his agent

- anyway pansky doesn’t want carver, he wants stephen king

- i have too much to say about gerald’s game in 5.10, that’s getting its own post someday soon

- lol wait king’s wife is named tabitha uhhh king’s wiki reminded me of his childhood experience that possibly inspired his short story ‘the body’ (+1986 movie ‘stand by me’) when he ‘apparently witnessed one of his friends being struck and killed by a train tho he has no memory of the event’

- no mention of that in this rd episode but memories of a train could be interesting to consider with the imagery that intrudes on jughead’s hallucination. i still feel like it was a truck but the lights and sounds he experiences may be a train

- ok now we’re in the speculation part of today’s segment

- if jughead’s traumatic memory involves trains, then it’s possible this plot will take influence from la bête humaine <- this 1938 movie is based on the 1890 novel by french writer émile zola. this story deals with alcoholism and possessive jealousy in relationships, sometimes leading to murder. huh, kind of like carver. zola def comes down on the nature side of the nature-vs-nuture bad seed question (tho i should say he approaches this with great or maybe just v french compassion). also i can’t tell if this is me reaching but, something about la bête humaine reminds me of king’s ‘secret window’ which we’ve observed to be at least a style influence on jughead post time jump

- but wow a late-19th century french writer would be a random thing to drop into this season, right? then again zola also wrote about miners, which we’ve learned are an important part of this town’s history + whatever hiram is up to this time.  and most notably, zola wrote ‘j’accuse...!’ an open letter in defense of a soldier falsely accused and unlawfully jailed for treason: alfred dreyfus. archie’s recent army trouble comes to mind.

- since the introduction of old man dreyfuss (plausibly Just a nod to close encounters actor richard dreyfuss, but also when is anything in this show Just one thing) i’ve been wondering if these little things could add up to a season-long reference to zola’s writings. but i had doubts and didn’t want to speak on it too soon bc, u know, it’s weird but is it weird enough for riverdale??

- however,,,

- (come on, u knew where i was going with this)

- a24′s film zola just came out. absolutely no relation to the french writer, it’s not based on a book but an insane and explicit twitter thread by aziah ‘zola’ wells about stripping and? human trafficking?? this feels ripe for rd even outside the potentials here for the lonely highway/missing girls plot.

- that would add up to a combination of homage that feels natural to this show

- anyway pls understand i’m just having fun speculating, most of this is based on nothing more concrete than the torturous mental tendril ras has hooked into my skull pls let go ras pls let go

[sotorubio]

A combo of making use of Yara, Ava and Kieu My could have achieved the same results that introducing Lou and Sascha have done so far. It's a pain to enter wk 3 of this stagnant story with nothing concrete for the viewers who dgaf about love triangle to hold on to. Even the ones who are slightly invested have a superficial preference (Sascha) or feeling of representation (Lou) towards one new character or another, rather than a their potential interesting plot integration into ismail's story

yeah i absolutely agree there rly wasn't a need for new characters they could've gotten so much of the same stuff from old characters too or they could've just.. written a story that involves old characters n deals w the themes that were already introduced during the previous seasons...

n this is kinda where i feel like we again need to reiterate that the characters r fictional n only exists/act the way they act to tell us a story so it's like.. do we have an existing childhood best friend for ismail? no but nowhere does it say there needs to be one bc that was just the writers' decision. the story that they're trying to tell w the childhood best friend tho? ismail being friends w someone who's connected to ava so they can talk abt the bullying plotline, showing how even tho he's trying to change ismail still continues the pattern of neglecting friends in favor of the "cooler" ones & mostly hangs out w them only when he needs help/feels like it. hmmm it's almost like last season ismail already got to know someone who wasn't exactly part of the cool kids group but rather the "lame outsiders".. someone who ismail only approached bc he needed help.. someone who's literally best friends w ava helloooo?????? they had all that set up in s6 but just decided to bring in a whole new character to essentially serve the same role. n this line of thinking can be applied to various plotlines n the characters u mentioned too.

it's frustrating bc i do like both sascha & lou. i think sascha is such a sweetheart n i like seeing him in clips. lou is a rly intriguing character w her mysterious aesthetic & the way she fits in well w the instas but is still uniquely her own person. it's just that.. they weren't necessary. they already had all the pieces to tell this same story.

n i feel like i have to emphasize that point bc of courseee it's not a bad thing to introduce new characters to a tv show like. it would be kind of silly to say Okay we got the new gen here already n we like them so it's illegal to bring in new characters bc we only want to see our faves. that's kind of a childish way to view a tv show n reminds me of all the ppl demanding evak scenes in s4 when they literally weren't relevant. but here it just simply is a fact that the old characters Would be more relevant n would drive the plot faster toward the same goal. getting new characters is fine but they have to actually further the plot that has been set up since s5. now i feel like sascha n lou are more like halting it... bc we don't know them we need to get to know them first and Then we can start seeing how they r involved in ismail's, u know the main character's, story. (+ also the fact that the characters who are filling the roles that previously belonged to/could've been filled by characters of color are now white)