#respect haseki ayse post

[ottomanladies]

Also she said in terms of rank, the Dynasty Sultanas are placed above the Valides and the Hasekies (Something I agree with) Because after all the dynasty sultanas were free women who were not part of the institution of the harem and had imperial blood, but the Valides and the hasekies were slaves.

I can't see a dynasty sultana like Mihrimah bowing to Valide Nurbanu or Dynasty Geverhan Sultan Bowing to Handan.

For me the hierarchy is:

-Older Sultanas (ex: Mihrimah, Gerverhan, Atike..) -Valid Sultanas (eg: Nurbanu, Hadan, Turhan) -Younger Sultanas (ex: Ayse Humashah, Sah Huban, Esmehan)

-Haseki Sultan

-Bas Hatun

-Hatun

I placed the young sultanas under of the Valide Sultans because we are in a Muslim society so elders are very respected. In the case of Humaşah Sultan (Daughter of shezade Mehmed) and Valide Nurbanu Sultan, I think that Humaşah out of respect bowed to Nurbanu since she was her senior and the Valide Sultan.

Both age and title played an important factor to who should bow to who.

No, I'm sorry but I disagree with you two.

The Valide Sultan was the custodian of the dynasty, she was the "elder" not because of her age but because she was a) the mother of the sultan and b) a woman in her post-sexual role.

Now, sexuality was very important in the Ottoman Empire: a woman who didn't have sexual intercourse anymore was considered mature (not in terms of age).

It doesn't matter how old the Valide Sultan was, she was the most mature member of the dynasty (by association, because she had given birth to the sultan).

I understand your reasoning about the princesses being born free but they were still subjected to the Valide Sultan's authority. I also understand why you'd think Mihrimah would not bow to Nurbanu but I think Gevherhan and Handan are a different case altogether because Gevherhan had raised Handan in her household, maybe they had a different relationship because of this.

For example, I think Bayezid II's daughters (and therefore Selim I's sisters) bowed to Ayşe Hafsa.

[fauzhee10069]

The four Haseki and their relationship with beloved Mothers-in-Law

We'll come closer to the end of Kösem sultan and her magnificent story :,(. Now let me present these four ambitious hasekis in different time but lived below the same sky (don’t ask me why I included Ayşe, just keep reading it! ;-) and why I don’t include Hürrem vs Valide Ayşe Hafsa because mainly I forgot their story XP). Hürrem started this "opposing your mother-in-law" continued with Nurbanu to Turhan sultan (only in MY and MYK dear, not historically), but how their stories differ? Let's see...:

Afife Nurbanu Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was Hürrem sultan, Hürrem wanted her to be a smart but obedient daughter-in-law, she became a gozde (favorite) to sehzade Selim (later Selim II). Iirc, Nurbanu's conflict with Hürrem started when Hürrem refused to protect & defend her after she had fight with Hurichihan (Hatice sultan's daughter) & caused her death. Afraid to the consequence of her deed, she threatened Hürrem to show her letter about ordering Nurbanu to kill Suleyman I's other gozde, Nazenin hatun, from this onwards their conflict began. Other factor that driven Nurbanu is her ambition to support Selim to be the successor, next sultan after Suleyman I, especially after she found that Hürrem was supporting her other son, sehzade Bayezid. Her conflict with Hürrem mainly to prevent and foiled her to support Beyazid. Even after Hurrem's death, Nurbanu was still occupied with Beyazid's remaining supporters (including Mihrimah & Rustem->though Rustem would betray later via Gracia Mendes' seduction (LOL)).

Mahpeyker Kösem Sultan:

Her actual mother-in-law was Handan sultan, but her nemesis (in the show) was Safiye sultan, Handan's mother-in-law & the grandmother of Kosem's spouse Ahmed I. Similar with Hürrem, Safiye intended to present Kösem to Ahmed and use her to influence & control his power. Their conflict started when Safiye, unable to control Kösem anymore, decided to kill her father. Feeling betrayed, Kösem decided to avenge her father's death (while being a heroine too) by leading Safiye's daughter, Fahriye sultan to her death. Safiye repaid it with Yasemin hatun (Kösem's sister)'s death and Kösem paid it back with Iskender/sehzade Yahya (Safiye's missing son)'s death. Also Kösem being heroine wanted to protect Ahmed and the state from her, especially when Safiye did the coup d'etat, causing chaos in the palace. Not long after, Ahmed died, leaving Kösem with her little children fighting Safiye (and later Halime) alone.

Ayşe Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was Kösem sultan and her spouse was sultan Murad IV. Like Hürrem and Safiye, Kösem too expected that Ayşe would be an obedient, helpful & easily controlled by her. I think during the very first episode of season 2, there would be a rivalry and conflict between Ayşe and Kösem, how Ayşe said that she wished to support Murad and keep him away from the influence of his mother in ruling the state. Ayşe also said that she refused to follow every Kosem's orders and be obedient to her. Too bad this rivalry concept got thrown out and replaced with her fake rivalry with Farya as Mahidevran 2.0. Ayse's story here would be mainly fanon:

After Kösem's ten years regency, Murad became the sultan officially (I mean, the time when Murad was able to govern the state independently), but with Kösem's influence in the government, viziers & jannisaries, they were already familiar and support her and the people greatly trust her. Murad was struggling to gain the trust and recognition from his people. Everyone (including viziers and jannisaries) still doubted this young sultan's capability to rule, they always compared him to Kösem. Murad wanted to step out from his mother's shadow, he tried to limit Kosem's power and influence, he wanted his mother as valide sultan back to her initial duty, managing the harem. As loyal spouse and his most beloved woman, Ayşe supported Murad and helped him to be able to rule independently by trying to dispel and keep him away from his mother's influence, she also managed to seek the support from the people including some viziers. Ayşe chose to be a good wife and queen/haseki who supported her spouse the sultan in government rather than being used and controlled by his mother. Thus her conflict with Kösem sultan began. Besides her conflict with Kösem, Ayşe also had her own problem, she was struggling to provide Murad a healthy sehzade who would have his chance to survive adulthood and become the heir for Murad's throne. Murad's relationship with his mother was gradually strained. Seeing her son's insubordination to her, Kösem decided to get rid of Ayşe as the mastermind of the destruction of their family relationships. Their rivalry was fierce until Murad's death came. Ayşe who had lost her greatest support (and love) Murad and lost her sehzade who could be made an heir, lost her power, influence and purpose completely. She was immediately removed by Kösem and sent away to live in the Old Palace.

Turhan Hatice Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was also Kösem sultan and she was the spouse of Ibrahim I. Turhan had learned all the tales of the powerful sultana in Ottoman and had her own ambition. She saw Kösem as her role model and at the same time she wanted to be like her. Kösem still expected her to be easily controlled and obedient to her but Turhan thought that being obedient and passive won't make her a powerful figure. She found that to fight her mother-in-law, she had to get her sultan's support. Observing her situation and circumstance, getting the support from her spouse seemed difficult since Ibrahim had numerous gozde that he loved, he even appointed his eight gozde (including her) as his haseki. Turhan could become the Baş Haseki had been a lucky one for her since she had Ibrahim's oldest sehzade Mehmed. The odds of getting support from her spouse are getting smaller as he brought new gozde again and this gozde became his legal wife (Telli Humaşah). Thus, rather than wage an open war to Kösem, she decided to gain the trust for her. By being the closest person to Kösem, she could observe everything, from how Kösem gains her supports to find a chance to overthrow her. During this time, Turhan managed to gain the trust of viziers, but Kösem still had the most influence in jannisaries. Turhan also tried her best to secure her son and protect him as the next heir after Ibrahim's death. When Ibrahim died, Mehmed the oldest sehzade succeeded him. But as long as Kösem still alive, her struggle was not over yet. Kösem who had many experience as regent thought that inexperienced Turhan wasn't competent enough to rule the state, Kösem was preventing her to be in charge of state affairs. Turhan disagreed since she felt entitled as the mother of Mehmed IV. Kösem later went to far by attempting to remove Mehmed and replaced him with sehzade Suleyman (the son of supposedly more obedient haseki Saliha Dilasub). Driven by her will to protect her son's life, Turhan decided to get rid Kösem completely and her men successfully murdered her. Eventually, Turhan became regent and rule the state together with her son. My fanon is that the previous haseki sultan Ayşe wanted have her revenge with Kösem, so she temporarily helped Turhan behind the scene.

Summary:

Many young sultana during their time as queen consort (haseki) had strained relationship with her mother-in-law, the queen dowager (valide sultan), they had similar ambitions but they had their different motivation and situation.

In Nurbanu's case, she was a favorite of Selim II during his sehzade years. There was sehzade Beyazid as threat who challenged Selim's way to be the heir. Being supportive to her spouse, Nurbanu made sure that Selim will success it. Nurbanu's main focused was how Selim would take the throne.

In Kösem's case, she initially was driven by revenge. But later when she found that Ahmed I her spouse's life was also in danger, she fought to protect him. Safiye's failed attempt to control Ahmed drove her to led a coup d'etat. Ahmed with the help of Kösem successfully weakened Safiye's power and influence. But not long after that, Ahmed died and Kösem lost her greatest support. Kösem became alone surrounded with many dangerous snakes especially Safiye and Halime, though in the end she was able to get rid of them.

In Ayse's case, Murad became a sultan who just been deemed worthy to rule by his own. Ayşe helped Murad to gain the trust and to be recognized by his people, she wanted him to get out from Kösem's shadow. Ayşe also had another burden since Murad didn't have an apparent heir yet. In the end Murad died without heir and his brother Ibrahim was the one who succeeded him. Ayşe lost her position and had to spend her life in the Old Palace according to the custom.

In Turhan's case and during her time, Ibrahim I had his eight harem girls as the haseki. Turhan happened to bore him the oldest sehzade Mehmed thus she became the Baş haseki. Turhan had to face her many harem rivals including the greatest threat who was Telli Humaşah, the girl Ibrahim brought and became his legal wife. Turhan was not really loved by Ibrahim (as she was not his most favorite). After Ibrahim's death, Turhan had her power struggle with Kösem sultan. She wanted to be regent ruling independently but her reign always overshadowed by Kösem. Their conflict became worse when Kösem wanted to get rid of Turhan's son and replaced him with her other grandson, thus leading to Kosem's death by Turhan's men hands.

 TL;DR

All had their conflict with their MiLs but Nurbanu was haseki of sehzade whereas Kösem, Ayşe and Turhan were haseki of sultans. All supposedly outlived their MiL but canon MYK!Ayşe died before Kösem. Although Kösem had her conflict with her actual MiL Handan, her main nemesis was Safiye sultan, her MiL's MiL (or should I say grandmother-in-law). Nurbanu's spouse Selim I outlived his mother but Ahmed I (Kosem's spouse), Murad IV (Ayse's spouse) and Ibrahim I (Turhan's spouse) died before their mothers (and grandmother in Ahmed's case). Nurbanu, Kösem and Turhan had their surviving sons took his fathers' throne whereas Ayşe didn't. Nurbanu, Kösem and Ayşe were loved and greatly supported by their spouses whereas Turhan was not really (but canon-MYK!Ayşe instead was greatly abused and hated by him), Ibrahim might loved Turhan but she was not his most beloved one. Nurbanu, Kösem and Turhan succeeded in becoming valide sultan and became the most powerful sultana in their respective era whereas only Ayşe who couldn’t make it since she didn’t have a sehzade (the prince), the most important asset for every women as royals.

Conclusion:

Powerful and ambitious women in MY and MYK always expect their daughters-in-law to be the obedient and easily-controlled. Unbeknownst for them, they became the role models of their younger generations. Thus, instead having the obedient DiL, they got their own reflection: the DiL that exactly the same with their younger selves. These DiL won’t easily submit to them just like themselves in their younger days.

Also I wonder when Turhan’s hair color was mentioned as blonde, There is no popular culture that show Turhan with blonde hair. Mahpeyker: Kösem Sultan’s Turhan was brunette and  Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem‘s Turhan is dark haired (likely black). I’m sorry with my shitty bad quality editing but I want my Turhan’s blonde XD, I’m not expert.

[fymagnificentwomcn]

I just wanted to say if you find anything about her: Ayse Haseki can you please post it here ?

As I promised, yes. But these Venetian reports for example are not truly some secret knowledge. Eg. Kumrular accessed the Venetian State Archives, and her most groundbreaking discovery is a letter confirming Kösem was legally married to Ahmed (and mentions how her mentor Halil Inalcik - a highly respected historian, recommended - praised her for it). If she had found anything groundbreaking in these reports, she would have included that in her book.

Short note: please don’t trust any information that isn’t provided with sources. And yeah, you need to check whether the source is a historical fiction novel, old  play (such sensational ones about the “exotic Ottoman court” were once very popular in Europe), book by “bad historian” or one by a historian that can be trusted, who works on actual evidence. A lot of people now want to play a historian, and since again harem was a place with very restricted access, a lot of people just enjoy playing historians, and often they simply produce elaborate fanfictions, usually propping up their show faves. It is everywhere - ask pages, wattpad, instagram, twitter - people just title it “true historical information about e.g. M/K characters” and write their own invented history, sometimes going as far as inventing historians, quoting a historical fiction book without stating so or even attribute to someone something they didn’t write, e.g. Evliya writing about all the princesses Murad allegedly married. I’m like often facepalming each day, but I feel too done to even correct it and simply try to provide info based on good sources here. Even today I opened Kösem‘s wikipedia page and read info that she “killed Mahfiruz”, and clearly the author of her Polish wiki page in general loves all the “evil Kösem", rumours that have nothing in common with reality. Then I opened some wattpad page about “info on Hürrem” and of course there were many things about evil!Mahidevran and the ways she did awful stuff to poor Hürrem. It it even worse when sometimes journalists of web portals or other popular websites use such information to write articles for a wide audience and all the shit gets spread because “it was published on popular magazine’s website”.

And yeah even before Murad and his princesses, there were e.g. theories about Mahidevran being a princess or a noble to prop her up for a change. Eh. And STAY AWAY FROM MELIKE CHIMAY AT ALL COST. This woman is a fraud who claims she’s descendant of Mahidevran and her aunt or whatever told her some secret knowledge on her deathbed. In Chimay’s story, everyone related and has some noble blood.

People have truly wild imagination and cynically use the fact that others are curious about some stuff and don’t have access to sources. Please spend more time googling to find articles with sources. Please ask people spreading theories about sources, don’t be ashamed because if they want to play a historian, behave like a historian. It’s their responsibility to provide sources and it’s totally normal and commendable you ask for them. And yeah double check even that. Plus don’t trust some “it’s only accessible to Turks” either because Western historians etc. do go to Turkey and gather sources there or Turkish historians do work with Western ones, like Baki Tezcan and Leslie Peirce. Generally claims about “secret knowledge” and “available only to…” should be treated as heavy warning signals.  Add current political climate and historical revisionism in Turkey, and the issue gets even more complicated :/

And if anything, you can always ask us :)

- Joanna

[haticesultanas]

cute that you are trying to proof farya's existence but still doesn't explain why the show are giving her all the story that ayse was supposed to have since she was murad's most loved and respected concubine, we see this in every biography and basically everything about him. even mentions his other wives but always giving focus on ayse and how she was his favourite, 2 ambassadors talks about her so yeah farah should have been ayse and not one nameless concubine that no one cared about.

cute that you completely missed the point of my post

i wasn’t trying to prove farya existed. i am trying to understand why we don’t know the second haseki’s name. i am a very curious person, i need to know everything if something interests me, so i want to know what happened to her. murad chose her because he was in need of heirs, what happened to her? did she die of childbirth? why wasn’t she in the old palace with ayse?

but yeah, by all means, let’s just misinterpret everything i say about the ottoman empire or magnificent century          because it’s more fun, that way

[fauzhee10069]

My contribution for Ayşe’s Love Week, but probably it’s already too late :,(

I barely have a time and I just draw it since yesterday and just finished it today :,(

But at least I just want to show my love and respect for Haseki Ayşe too. Her character in Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem barely got any respect at all (so does Sanevber imo).

Friendly reminder for everyone (especially who is not interested in history or seeking the truth):

Haseki Ayşe is supposedly the most beloved woman in Murad IV’s harem.

Probably she bore ten children for him instead of just two. 

The so-called second haseki’s name is unrecorded compared to Haseki Ayşe in which her name is mentioned everywhere.

Whether Murad IV had legal wife or not, the supposed legal wife’s name and origin should be mentioned somewhere (if he ever had any), even Osman II’s short reign got his legal wife name, Akile Hatun is recorded in history.

Whether he legally married Ayşe or not, doesn’t change the fact that  Ayşe is the most well-known consort of Murad IV.

Died in 1680, surely she outlived Murad IV who died in 1640 for 20 years instead of died before him especially by committed suicide >:( 

Haseki Ayşe doesn’t die as traitor, likely she died peacefully in Eski Saray (Old Palace).

I’m sure Haseki Ayşe didn’t kill her children, in fact she felt she had to struggle to bear and raise surviving children/sehzade.

[fymagnificentwomcn]

If you were the writer or season 2 and if "Farya" didn't exist .. How would've you portrayed Ayşe's character and her relationship with murad and with kosem ? (Sorry for my horrible English)

Hello! That’s such a good question, thank you.

I remember how the fandom was divided by “ship wars” when MYK s2 went on air, but personally I wanted to see more of a partnership than an epic love story. That’s way more realistic and interesting to me as a viewer; I think the rivalry and the unnecessary romance was one of the reasons why the plot for season 2 ended up getting wrong in a lot of ways. They had a good show and a rich account of past events, it didn’t make sense to do the ‘history-repeats-itself’ they decided to go for. I mean, when you watch episode 1 you see all the wasted potential in Ayse’s arc, it’s just sad. 

So with this in mind, I still stand by what Margot and I talked about a while ago and she decided to make this amazing post. In details this represents everything that could have been in Ayse’s storyline. Hope it helps. :)

- Mai

 I agree with Mai - Farya brought nothing of importance to the show despite all the screentime she occupied and all efforts of screenwriters to make us love her.

The fact that we know so little about Ayse and Ayse/Murad relations offered writers a lot of creative license and as such opportunity to bring something fresh to the table.

Getting rid of Farya and all her nonsensical plots would be the first step, of course. Show me a Farya-related plot that made sense and had actual meaning for overall storyline - there is none. 

Second, now it is time for small digression - I find the repeated romantisation of slave/master relationships that often includes fairytale elements to be the biggest flaw of both shows. The shows did well in being critical about many aspects of pathologies of that system to the extent that is hard to find in other shows on the Ottoman Empire and which even made Erdogan angry (compare with MBCF with all its super!Mehmed stuff, and I don’t even want to mention TRT propaganda shows), but when it comes to (especially long-term) trauma of women who suddenly lost everything and became slaves used for reproduction and sexually pleasing a man for whom they were captured, they did very badly. They even portrayed the trauma of male slaves better thanks to a complex portrayal of Ibrahim’s character in the original MY, with the lingering trauma contributing heavily to his downfall.

Instead of trauma, we have too many master-slave romances. I can only recall Sadika crying after Suleyman forced her to sleep with him back in MY S1. Usually after a night spent with THE GUY concubines are shown to be on cloud nine. And in some cases it turns into love and if life’s not perfect that’s not because of any long-term trauma, but only because of power struggles. Sometimes they even portray what pretty much has a lot of out-of-textbook elements of Stockholm syndrome to later not acknowledge it properly  because of rushing though the plot and messy execution, see Nasya going quickly from “I’m not anyone’s property” to “I belong to him” because she needed to stay because of pure motives. I get it now more what they wanted to convey, especially in contrast with what we’ve seen later and the darkness of the ending, but still.. you could have done it better. Man, even Christian princesses want nothing more but to become the Sultan’s mistress (lbr Murad wouldn’t have married Farya without the attack). A lot of salt, yes, but this issue bothers me a lot and I had an Anon on fatihdaily expressing such worries too (thank you for an excellent ask, Anon!).

Back on track a bit - even if some of those women eventually developed affection for their masters because it was their only chance for some love or due to Stockholm syndrome (remember Safiye’s “only love may make living in this palace bearable” - if this does not clearly point to Stockholm syndrome than IDK, BUT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS BETTER.

And Murad’s harem is perfect for that because he truly wasn’t the romantic type or one for romantic bonds with women. He was truly the guy who used harem for reproduction and sexual satisfaction, if he managed to even grace it with his presence. Give me Ayse and Murad who aren’t in love with each other, but she’s the one who manages to earn his respect as perhaps the only woman after his mother. Give me Ayse, who in her loneliness tries to get close to Murad because he’s the only person she can truly get close to. He does sleep with her after all, kisses her, perhaps gives her some presents? Who is to quench her loneliness if not this man? Show me Ayse who partners with Murad because she tries to find purpose in this new life, at least for their kids. Show me Ayse who’s aware that she could be much happier elsewhere, but must try to build a good future for herself where she is; who would love to abandon this life if it was possible. But do not show me woman a bitter woman scorned because dude rejects her  first .

Now for character development: give me Ayse who grows bold enough to form her own network of relationships completely independently of Murad. Who, while at first scared of her mother-in-law, actually realises that she has much more in common with this woman than with her “partner”, a “shadow of God on Earth”, who has a lot given to him on a silver platter just because he bears the title of a padisah. And yes, we have practically next to none positive mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationships in MY/K, and since Kosem/Turhan has to be antagonistic eventually, why don’t give Kosem a nice relationship with Ayse that would be more than just “we tolerate each other” and that would never have anything hidden, like Turhan becoming close to Kosem to eventually use it against her mother-in-law? Give us something totally genuine, like Mahidevran/Mihrunnisa in original MY, just this time between two historical characters. 

At the same time, Ayse’s relationship with Murad would deteriorate due to his increasing cruelty and alcohol addiction. This guy is definitely not a romantic hero out of every girl’s dreams. Bah, he’s not even a nice guy. And if you show abuse, again acknowledge it properly, without dumb lines like Madame Marguerite, who usually tried to knock some sense into Farya, telling her that “Forgive him he tried to kill you for what was mainly his fault, poor Murad has so many things to worry about”(WTF???). Make her drift away from him as much as she can OUT OF HER OWN WILL, not because he rejects her. I love Margot’s idea about Ayse realising he is trash before other big rival comes along. Since Murad likely had more than one concubine and one more haseki - bring them, but show Ayse not giving a fuck at all at this point. More - why not make them bond over their own misery? Murad descends into alcohol downward spiral that makes him spend much more time on long drinking parties with buds and killing or hurting people sometimes just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, so USE THIS OPPORTUNITY to show scared and disappointed women teaming up to survive his jackass behaviour. 

We all know Ayse would eventually lose her sons, but I would love for her to also have daughters, so that she wouldn’t be so  alone because historically she lived really long. And yeah I wouldn’t mind to see her being happy to leave Topkapi eventually, I don’t mean here being happy upon a death of man who after all was the father of her kids, but relieved to be free of this palace at last. Challenge the “Palace of Tears” concept.

As for her personality… pretty much what Margot described. I would love her to be more quietly strong, to contrast nicely with the imposing presence of the powerhouse that Kosem is. Clever and perceptive, but not a schemer. I’d love to see her use more emotional intelligence than pure cunningness. And I honestly feel Leyla Feray would be good to reflect such personality.

Oh, all the dreams *sighs*

Thank you once more for a great question :)

- Joanna