#rhaena of pentos' characterization

[horizon-verizon]

The only reason Nettles was cut was to give Rhaena some role, because she is useless throughout the entire dance and she appears for one minute at the very end. That's why they created a "conflict" between her and Daemon over a dragon.

You should block me anon, bc I disagree with this notion on mainly 3 accounts:

LINK (Rhaena's characterization and her role vs Nettles' during and after the war) -- no matter what, Nettles & Rhaena's stories are NOT interchangeable without destroying a lot of the lore and the connection to Dany they each have uniquely on their own…which is the point of F&B, to contextualize Dany's importance and character

the Dance is not just about the war but what lead up to it...GRRM himself has said he'd rather they began the show with Aemon & Baelon...that's a story right there even thought these 2 characters are not at all a part of the actual war. You have been fooled into believing the war is the only or primary event that created the characters instead of the characters making/creating the circumstances for the war...or you are one of those people who don't like to go over themes, can't stand non-war/violent/frenzied drama character action & development, and/or exploring-discovering depth & nuance in characters as they directly interact with their world and people (as Rhaena: schmoozing lords, getting to know how to rule or observe social situations from Jeyne, observe human behaviors and relationships through Jeyen-Jessamyne and develop a relationship with Corwyn Corbray so that when the war ends we can feel THAT much more broken over the end of her family and "what could have been"--OR her trying to find a way to hatch her dragon egg by looking for scrolls and such--- would/could have become--ALL of which is Rhaena is another link for Jeyne to Rhaenyra and Targ interests what present another layer of "women need to stick together" that Jeyne was canonically all about...there is an added layer of FAMILY & unity over and over again that the show simply refused or ignorantly didn't take advantage of).....in which case--as Condal might have missed hearing-- Go be with God. Nothing much else to say. You either are open to story, or you're just here "for a good time" and spectacle. In which case, don't claim spectacle = story and just be honest about it. To yourself and others.

With F&B, there are already storylines that anyone could have just "filled in" with plausible and lore/plot/character-faithful "elements" or "what could have happened" to connect the written plot events to each other in different ways and become diff trajectories of the same story; there are many ways that one could write the Dance while keeping the FACTUAL (as in they def happenid in Planetos and back then i the Dance era) events, their sequence, and the lore intact. Therefore, you could create a very round and interesting and full-of-heart story for Rhaena at the Vale, esp if you maybe included her also studying up on Valyrian stuff in her own attempts to hatch what would become Morning.

[princesssszzzz]

Rhaena deserves be the symbol of hope for the Targaryen dynasty. She’s the last dragon rider and has pure Valyrian blood. An arc with her wanting to unify both factions of the family but to no prevail as it’s out of control. After the war, she works to pick up the pieces and bring benevolence to the Hightowers. Daemon wanting to “restore the dynasty” but the daughter he ignores actually takes steps in doing so while he’s killing dragons. It’s *chefs kiss* writing. She’ll finally get a dragon and feel officially Targaryen but only after the family is torn apart so she wants to become peacemaker. This fits her so much more than fans urging the writers to make her claim a dragon and become just another dragonrider with no purpose other than being on a team and fighter. She’s not a fighter, she’s a lover and unifier.

[blackcat419]

There is no story or logistic reason for Nettles to not be in HotD.

No excuse the creators will give will justify not including her.

Too many characters? Cut Ulf or Hugh, they’re the same guy

Her story line is unclear? Literally everyone has an unclear or incomplete story line. Ulf and Hugh don’t have characters beyond drunk brute and you gave them characterization!

Want Rhaena to have more of a plot? Then make up a plot for her! Give her the job of negotiating with Pentos or organizing the vale army.

The Velaryons are already black? Is there a limit on the number of black characters now?

Any excuse the show runners use is just their thinly vailed attempt to disguise their racism, misogyny, misogynoir, and classism.

[ride-thedragon]

Due to the fact that the creators couldn't get the extent of wealth and power of House Velayron and House Targaryen are their peak during the limited episodes I've decided to do concept boards and mood boards for the it girls (upcoming as well, you're warned) of Westeros. They also, to my knowledge, have not given certain characters the characterizations they should have just yet (laena and her babies deserved better!) so that will be shown.

Laena is here twice because I said so.

1. Baela Targaryen.

Baela was wild, willing, and fearless.

2. Rhaena Targaryen

Rhaena was slender and graceful. Rhaena loved to dance.

3. Young Laena Velaryon

By two-and-twenty, Laena had grown into a tall, slender, and beautiful womanl. Laena loved to fly, and according to the maester of Driftmark, showed "far more interest in flying than in boys."

4. Older Laena Targaryen

Aware that the king and court would not be pleased with their marriage, Laena and Daemon flew on their dragons to Pentos, where they were hosted by the Prince of the city. They eventually returned to Pentos, where Laena discovered she was pregnant. Laena and Daemon remained in Pentos for the remainder of her pregnancy. In 116 AC, in Pentos, Laena gave birth to their twin daughters, Rhaena and Baela. When the children were half a year old, Laena sailed with them to Driftmark, while Daemon flew their dragons home.

5. Nettles. (Netty)

Nettles was foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless.

6. Rhaenys Targaryen Velaryon (a mother)

She was a clever, capable, spirited, proud, fierce, and fearless woman. She had a fiery temperament.

It girls I say. (Notice the nettles sneak) one thing about me is imma root for house Velayron through it all. Nettles is my child.

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

Show!Rhaena of Pentos (for the meta asks)

Character: I like her

Ship with : Aemond!!!!!! (Her & Aemond have taken over my a03 account)

General Opinions: She’s honestly a character I wish we would’ve gotten more of, in terms of development and characterization. I feel like the HOTD show runners could’ve delved more into her possible insecurities of being not being a dragonrider, and losing the parent (Laena) that actually validated her despite not being one. Apart from Nettles, she’s one of the few characters in the Dance I would want a POV from.

[navree]

Are you still working on that velaryons team green fic? if yes can you talk more about it please it sounds really intresting

I've got an idea of it in my head, haven't done much to put pen to paper because I've got a bunch of other fic drafts that I want to get out (I'm legit so close to being done with my "Rhaenyra doesn't react to B&C like a dumbass" fic, and I want to get my MAWS Slade/Addie fic and my TMA season 5 au fic out into the world sometime this year too, plus I do have a Dance au that I'm far more actively plotting out, it's just between Daemon and Rhaenyra rather than Aegon and Rhaenyra, where fun fact the Velaryons are on Daemon's side). But I've definitely thought about it, and plotted some stuff out tentatively.

Basically, this is all based on the fact that, as I've mentioned in other posts, the show has given me no reason to believe that the Velaryons should want to side with Rhaenyra, any of them. Corlys should be feel antagonistic to Viserys and whatever his final wishes may be because of the constant disrespect he has been shown by Viserys specifically. Rhaena shouldn't be on board with anything Daemon is on board with because he's been a profoundly shit father to her. Baela, as someone who grew up on Driftmark watching it be ruled by a woman, should not be on board being no more than someone's consort (especially when she doesn't know him because she spent the first ten years of her life in Pentos and then the ten years after that warded at Driftmark, she shouldn't know any of the Strongs or Rhaenyra at all) and losing a throne that should have gone to her own mother to someone she doesn't know either. Rhaenys especially shouldn't be on Team Black in the show, because she spends the entire show hating Rhaenyra's guts, first for just being the heir (OK girl) and then for seemingly cuckolding her son and later, in her view, straight up murdering him, to say nothing of the antipathy she feels for Daemon as a person and specifically in keeping Laena away from her for the last ten years of her life. None of these people should be willing to follow Rhaenyra (and to a lesser extent, Daemon) down the fucking road, much less in a war. This is an inter-familial succession crisis, who the family members choose to side with comes down largely to personal preference, and based on what the show wrote, the preferences of the Velaryons should lean far away from Team Black. Like, I'm supposed to believe that Rhaenys does a complete 180 on how she's been characterized for the last twenty five years of the show's timeline because Rhaenyra managed to avoid singlehandedly starting World War Westeros in the twelve hours since she'd been crowned? Be serious.

So basically, the AU of the Velaryons being Team Green rests on the premise that the show would allow the Velaryons to be, like, upset at the constant disrespect they've been shown by the key players of Team Black. Corlys is upset at how Viserys has treated him, Rhaena is upset at Daemon for how he treated her, Baela has a stronger connection to her maternal side and Driftmark as a result, Rhaenys is consistently characterized and thus consistently upset at how Daemon and Rhaenyra affected her children, both of whom she's outlived. So during the Driftmark inheritance debacle in ep 8, Rhaenys does not magically come to Rhaenyra's aid after hating on her the entire episode, but instead keeps out of it and is neutral, as does Baela herself. And when episode nine rolls around, Rhaenys is much more amenable to Alicent's proposal. One, because Alicent saying "let us direct things behind the scenes since we're smarter even if we can't have institutional power because of the gender roles of our society" is the exact same thing Rhaenys has done her entire marriage (we legit see this in episode 5 and it's the entire basis of her power anyway). Two, because Rhaenys is, again, consistent, so she's against Rhaenyra having power, though largely for personal, petty reasons, though she does have legit concerns over having unrepentant murderers on the throne, since Rhaenyra and Daemon letting people believe they committed Laenor-cide unprompted just to satisfy themselves should have, like, consequences and people should fear what they're capable of as they said, thus not wanting them on the throne. Three, because Rhaenys and Alicent in this AU would have a pre-existing working relationship. Rhaenys has essentially been ruling over Driftmark ever since Corlys left ten years ago, while Alicent has simultaneously been the acting queen of Westeros as Viserys has grown more infirm. They've had to communicate with each other, as rulers, during that time, and be able to do so cordially and effectively in order to do right by the people living on Driftmark, who are under both of their purviews as liege lady and queen. So when Alicent gives this proposal, bolstered with her sincerity about how queens need to count the cost to their people when it comes to conflict, Rhaenys takes her at her word, and does decide to stay in King's Landing and lend legitimacy to Aegon. She stands with him on the dais, and she takes charge in sending negotiations to Rhaenyra to get her to capitulate without causing bloodshed, and she also leverages this for her own power.

One thing Rhaenys is adamant about in this AU is the same thing she's adamant about in episode 7: that the Driftwood Throne should pass to her granddaughters, not Rhaenyra's sons. So she uses the promise of her support to get the Greens to agree to that, that they will proclaim that, given the obvious bastardy of Rhaenyra's boys, the true heir to Driftmark is Baela. And Baela, who has gone back to Driftmark in the meantime, is on board with this. Again, Baela spent the last ten years there, watching Rhaenys rule. She has seen how a woman can be a ruling liege, and she has also seen Rhaenys treat with Alicent on occasion and how those two have operated as rulers themselves. And Driftmark is her connection to her mother, a mother she mourns and spent too little time with, a mother she can't even talk about with to her father because her father immediately remarried and treated his first wife and their children as if they didn't even exist. She doesn't know Rhaenyra, she doesn't know Jace, but she does know Driftmark, and Rhaenys, and even Alicent a bit. So she's fully on board with Rhaenys essentially kinda blackmailing the Greens into supporting her claim to Driftmark. And the Greens are on board with it because it gives them a PR boost. Now, they can say that they're not just disrespecting Viserys's wishes and being "sexist" for the Hell of it; they're trying to prevent a succession crisis by not allowing a woman whose heir is a clear bastard to ascend the throne and cause chaos in the realm. Look, they're fine allowing a woman to rule Driftmark, but she has trueborn Velaryon blood, even if it is descended through the mother (and this in turn vindicates Rhaenys even more, since it's lowkey a repudiation of what Jaehaerys essentially did with the Great Council, saying that not only could women not inherit but that men could not inherit through their female relatives, denying both Rhaenys and Laenor the Iron Throne). Rhaena, meanwhile, is conflicted. She has spent time on Dragonstone, she does know Rhaenyra and she does know Luke, though there's never been any formal betrothal. But she also knows and loves Baela as her sister, and she has legit issues with Daemon that have only grown and kind of left her standoffish towards her half-brothers and Rhaenyra as well. She's not sure what side she falls on, and she doesn't even know what power she really has because she doesn't even have a dragon. Corlys meanwhile I haven't given much thought to, since he's not that interesting to me, but I'm sure if I ever actually tried to write this I'd figure something out for him.

One knock-on effect of this, for the broader teams, is that it obviously gives the Greens a boost, since the Velaryons being on their side means that they get the fleet, something also important considering that Rhaenyra is on an island and desperately needs sea power as well as other kinds of power. And it makes Rhaenyra and Daemon a lot more militant, since they're now firmly disadvantaged. They're gonna be far more reliant on dragons, and far more willing to use them, and there likely would be a dragon battle involving Meleys, though not ending the way Rook's Rest did since Sunfyre and Vhagar would be on her side, not against her. I'm unsure as to whether I would have Rhaenys die in this version too, but I know at least Baela and Rhaena would live, and Baela would end up lady of Driftmark (and likely also the Greens firmly win with fewer casualties since this is my AU and I like the Greens). Luke also probably wouldn't die, since Storm's End might be less necessary now than it was in canon, and also Rhaenys would be the one to go to Storm's End to deal with the Baratheons since she is, in fact, part Baratheon through her mother, rather than sending Aemond, thus there's no chance for him to get mad and for his and Luke's dragons to then act out as a result.

Also, I haven't read it, but I saw it in the bookmarks of someone who'd left a kudos on my fic about Alicent and Viserys's engagement period, but I think this is also a bit along the lines of "Velaryons join the Greens rather than Team Black", if that idea interests you and you don't want to wait ten million years to see if I write something for it or not.

[darklinaforever]

DAEMON AND HIS DAUGHTERS PART 1

Daemon teaching High Valyrian to Baela, thus sharing with her their heritage and culture. Small bonus with the kisses she gives him and he bends down to receive.

Daemon himself announced Laena's death to his daughters. Because yeah, it's very clear he did that in that rooftop scene. Even if he clearly did not handle this announcement in the best way, it nevertheless shows that he cares as much for Rhaena as for Baela. If Daemon didn't care, he could have let anyone else among the servants break the news to them. Or if he only cared about Baela, he could just as easily (because nothing stopped him), take her aside and only care about her, which he didn't either.

As for Daemon finally not hugging his daughters, I can understand that. In view of his depression presented in the episode, plus the death of Laena, he must have felt sad, lost and confused. Such an event is hard to manage, even more so to explain it to your own children, especially for someone who has trouble managing / supporting what he cannot control, and or what gives him too many emotions. Besides, I don't think he seems cold with them during this scene, on the contrary. I will say he looks equally sad for his daughters over Laena's death, wishing he could console them but looking like he didn't know what exactly to say or do to achieve that. Proof of this is with his nervous little hand movement. (even if we now know that this scene was supposed to end with a hug… Stupid writers and directors…)

Viserys offers Daemon to return to King's Landing, but Daemon replies that Pentos is his home and that of his children, pointing out that he is concerned about his daughters' possible feelings about being uprooted from where they have always lived. If Daemon was only driven by a selfish desire to go back to hiding in Pentos (because there's undeniably a bit of that in the case), he wouldn't have included his daughters in his refusal to return to King's Landing. It wasn't necessary. Not to mention that Daemon has never been characterized as a hypocritical character, on the contrary. He is a character who says what he thinks bluntly, and above all who never seeks excuses for his actions. Usually what Daemon says, well he means it. (even if he obviously remains capable, like all human beings, of saying things that he does not mean under the influence of particular emotions)

[horizon-verizon]

I think people don’t realise what a nightmare Fire & Blood is to adapt compared to ASOIAF. Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff. This can’t happen in a TV show, and frankly this is (unfortunately perhaps?) the most logical thing to do with Rhaena.

Fans understandably want everything in the source material to be faithfully adapted but visual mediums are not the same as literary works. Storylines have to be consolidated and streamlined to save costs for ensemble casts and to provide faster-paced storylines that don’t bore audiences, unlike books which can take their time with a story and gradually develop their characters over hundreds of pages.

Characters like Nettles and Rhaena simply don’t work in visual medium, because both characters would just not have enough to do that would warrant investment by the audience. Combining elements of both into one character, if done right, can strengthen the overall character and subsequent story.

Besides, the jealous lover trope for Rhaenyra in the book being the source of her and Daemon’s fallout is uninspiring. Daemon being forced to choose between Rhaena and Rhaenyra is a far more compelling angle, and would provide a stronger perspective on Daemon as a whole, especially with how lacking of a father he was in S1.

Anon responds to several recent posts about the likely merging of Nettles and Rhaena of Pentos's storylines that starts HERE or HERE.

I understand that HotD might be very entertaining to some people...but implying that the writers couldn't have done better bc F&B is supposedly incoherent (when it's far from so) AND thus it is as good as any adaptation could get--thereby seemingly to admit that it's not great and then seemingly simultaneously saying that it is actually pretty good...

is not the vibe.

In all, a lot of the issues you bring up are ordinary issues with adaptations (and seem to make as excuse for these writers who point blank already said/showed they were intent on creating a totally different story with Rhaenicent replacing the original storyline) but the mess of storylines we get in HotD can't be excused by this idea of how "difficult" it is to adapt what does have pretty clear characters, events, etc. Also, good planning and foresight and integrity couldn't hurt.

A)

unlike books which can take their time with a story and gradually develop their characters over hundreds of pages.

vs

I think people don’t realise what a nightmare Fire & Blood is to adapt compared to ASOIAF. Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff.

A contradiction. So F&B is very detailed and a rich text with solid characterizations and definite events now?

B)

Characters like Nettles and Rhaena simply don’t work in visual medium, because both characters would just not have enough to do that would warrant investment by the audience. Combining elements of both into one character, if done right, can strengthen the overall character and subsequent story.

...So Gwayne Hightower, who was given a lot more material than he ever actually had...that made sense to you? Hugh the Hammer becoming a family man when he already had the Caltrops deal with Ulf the White? You can't show an increasing amount of frustration from Ulf and Hugh without trying to make us sympathize with either of them and make either underdogs? We can't follow Nettles as a young street "urchin"? We can't do the same for two separate girls, make up stories and backgrounds?! HUH?! We can't have flashbacks to Marilda of Hull and the Hull boys? No?

We did it for those irrelevant nutjobs, but not for Rhaena or Nettles? Anon, please. Address the misgynoir or at least this major discrepancy.

Besides, the jealous lover trope for Rhaenyra in the book being the source of her and Daemon’s fallout is uninspiring. Daemon being forced to choose between Rhaena and Rhaenyra is a far more compelling angle, and would provide a stronger perspective on Daemon as a whole, especially with how lacking of a father he was in S1.

You assumed two things: that Rhaenyra believed Daemon x Nettles was real AND that I believe they happened romantically. The first one, that's more than understandable since that is the prevailing impression the fandom has had for years and a lot of people don't really like F&B for how differently it's written from ASoIaF (I think it would have been improved just with some female voices put to paper, like Daemon and Otto in Rogue Prince and some of F&B...esp Rhaenyra or her ladies and a few history-loving septas).

I even am rethinking the whole "Rhaenyra thought Nettles seduced Daemon with magic and stole him from her" bc....SEPTON EUSTACE SAYS THIS HAPPENED THIS WAY, after he already describes Mysaria a "witch" who manipulates Rhaenyra as if casting a spell. The guy who speculated that she and Daemon were sleeping together as Rhaenyra gorged herself while a war was going on. Like the true religious sexist that he is.

Aside from that, I still think that Nettles being revealed as being Daemon's bio daughter is FAR more compelling AND sensical than Rhaenyra willing to kill her husband's daughter who she partially raised...or was supposed to and not treat as if she serves her like some servant....which, again, is very misogynoirist. For some reason, people keep ignoring this particular point I'm making...

Anyway, once again, like I said HERE about Rhaena at the Vale, you could have her flourish in diplomacy and meeting certain characters who will be important later in the overall storyline...plus imagine what we could have had as how Rhaena manages to finally hatch Morning?! The process and tension--from the suggestion of those different "experiments" she tries that are all different from what she did when she was just a child--that's built up to that by some specific egg-interaction scenes...some epiphany she could have had...something to tie her into actual magic! And this is just one way you could have written Rhaena at the Vale!

I don't think you guys understand what you've lost.

C)

A lot of the weird shit that happens on the show!blacks' side in terms of why Daemon kills at Harrenhal when he canonically doesn't and why it's made out to be as if he's paid for a bad prize in winning the castle is because they have Rhaenyra acting like there isn't a war already happening whether she likes it or not (their argument back in e2). If they hadn't made the woman who was canonically "tempermental" and just as willing to assert her rights as some people Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon were more a reality-denying doormat as she was who only fights bc he dad said stuff abt the ASoIaF prophecy instead of having any ambition for herself (in the attempt to make her more "moral" or whatever)...we wouldn't have had the mess of a storyline we got now.

Daemon's magic plotline, I'm not that angry about. More how he got there and the taking reframed as him trying to prove a point to his wife after a nonsensical argument and not being very successful in getting allies for her. And him doing so without thinking of how his leaving the way he does could impact Rhaenyra's hold even further, and for real this time (no, B&C would and canonically does nothing to dissuade anyone from supporting Rhaenyra). Rather than him "requesting" or being sent to Harrenhal, an argument there or not but likely after an actually sensical argument.

A point that he instantly invalidates by again going off without first establishing plans they are both aware of. This is war, not sitcom TV suburbia where the father leaves the house for a bit and there's low stakes for that to make sense. A much different sort of war from the Stepstones as well. All their lives are on the line, not just soldiers...which they didn't have (or as much) at the moment. And Dameon (book-wise) was not that petty as to cross into dum-dum territory.

D) Other Stuff

"compared"....not "impossible", and the way they have for several characters were very unnecessary, so...I can't agree with this sentiment that these characters are so, so difficult to have adapted as they are, esp since if you read well, you find a lot of evidence that shows who some important characters are and a few of their critical motivations. Now if you didn't don't want to do that, all the power to you. Doesn't mean that it was impossible or valueless to do so in the first place, since that is what we were supposed to do with this FICTIONAL historical document.

Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff. This can’t happen in a TV show, and frankly this is (unfortunately perhaps?) the most logical thing to do with Rhaena.

...funny you say that, since there was a lot that could have been done for Jacaerys' diplomacy arc to the Vale, then to the Manderlys, then to Cregan Stark where he stays and becomes great friends. I don't think you realize how much we lost here. Jeyne Arryn's words to Jace abt women sticking close and the reveal of her female lover; Wyman Manderly and the court that they didn't show in GoT, here is where they could have showcased the Merman's court; flashbacks to Cregan's times of getting his regent greedy uncle out so he can reclaim his own seat as his father intended as well as showing us their Jacegan(?) bromance's development. Like, this is at least 3 episodes alone!

You act like specific words, events, and actions are not told or narrated and done so with good enough detail (and reliably) in F&B for us to understand the and glean truth from fiction. As if the entire project is a haphazard collection of just names...when those marriage alliances (one of Joffrey to Desmond Manderly's youngest daughter) was made fully within the larger, variously-detailed and overlapping-storied context of the current Dance/war.

Jacaerys was not "waiting around". He went to the North to get alliances for his mother and in one of them, he meets with a Manderly and that is how he gets Manderly's promise--Joffrey's betrothal to his daughter. This is not even the most well known accomplishment Jace had in his particular mission, he'd go on to meet with two other, more famed, leaders with pretty badass moments DETAILED in the book that even could have been depicted/expanded more live.

These writers simply didn't think his diplomacy arc was important enough to expound and show in their time crunch...meanwhile, we got one-liner Gwayne Hightower speaking nonsense to Criston Cole, Alicole sex scenes, Alicent bathing as if she wants to ice her entire head to block out the world up the wazoo. And NONE of the Daemyra-Dragonstone family scenes that the time jump of last season's epi 8 came from. We're told, canonically, more about this unit than we are about Gwayne, yet here we are.

Perhaps I'm just assuming, but like I said in this post, it appears that people think the Dance portion of F&B was just the Dance...no, it started with "Heirs of the Dragon, who were Jaehaerys' children/grandkids towards the GC of 101. Which means that with as much context and history F&B actually gets into a lot of detail for a historical document, these writers had a lot of material for bringing Princess Rhaenys properly to life, for example. Even if you don't include how she wanted to go fight the Myrmen with her father Aemon while pregnant, this fact from the book should be enough to let you know what sort of person she was. Which is supplemented by her plans for how to defeat the greens in the first black council. Also, how we hear her response to Jaehaerys choosing Baelon and the lords choosing Viserys over her and her kids. And we have her protest angrily and freely how Jaehaerys was taking away her and her kid's birthrights...That's at least 3 incidents showing the true, real and solid "Rhaenys" of the orig story. It is consistent.

There was so much from Jace, Daemon, Rhaenyra-Mysaria they could have done (note how I keep talking about the blacks...bc the green characters actually have some notable plot action going on from their characterizations aside from the Alicole nonsense...not Helaena, though, but she was always meant to further Alicent and be an accessory, not her own person to these writers, so....)

Apart from that, F&B has Gyldayn castigate Rhaenyra from going to war herself...while Aegon was burnt into useless pork at Rook's Rest. You can have Rhaneyra do shit without going to war at Dragonstone with Daemon and Mysaria planning shit out as a sort of "good" change from the canon. You could even try to argue that since...

Gyldayn was looking to rebuke Rhaenyra for being a woman and going to war at all for nay inheritance like a man and thus paoint her as incompetent, that she didn't actually fall into a graceless heap and have the men around her do everything in her mental absence...

that she/Emma was simply sequestered to collect herself and work behind smaller spaces while calling this and that person to her to make plans, etc. Instead, we have her impersonate a septa and go on endangering herself thinking Alicent of all people not only would but could do anything with or without her to prevent a war that's already happening...This is called working with the original to make something "new".

...............................................................................

I've seen too many logical inconsistencies or places where they could have improved some's scenes if they had just....though ahead or read F&B more than twice in total good faith.

Deliberate giving black-specific stuff to the greens as well, which they also didn't have to do but did...willingly and BEFORE S2.

The writers, I mean. This book may have been created like a historical book...doesn't mean that we nor actual historians manage to find truths in said documents...otherwise we wouldn't know anything of certain events and wittle some more ambiguous events down to a few LIKELIEST possibilities. And we still have made pretty great movies from ambiguously told historical-legendary events (Vikings, hello?!)

I don't see this as a proper excuse.

[horizon-verizon]

Phoebe Campbell saying about Baela and Rhaena “There’s a little bit of tension because of their separate upbringings, Baela was raised with grandma & grandpa, Rhaena by stepmom and half siblings. Rhaena feels quite a lot of resentment there.”

So... that garbage fanfic wants to put the dragon twins against each other ?? They aren’t Arya and Sansa, Baela and Rhaena actually love each other, and unlike Sansa, Baela never bullied her sister. And why would Rhaena resent the fact that she had to live with her stepmom and half siblings ??

This is if--and only IF--Phoebe is correct in how the show will decide to characterize Rhaena, and since they literally acted the character, shot all the scenes, and haven't gone on record with bad takes, I think we don't have much a reason to suspect otherwise.

Link to the article that came out today and what anon refers to:

BranwynHlfwitch over at Twitter has a whole thread pointing out other stuff how Ryan Condal has never had a great grasp on the plot or really of history & historians.

I think that part of it is they are trying to develop these characters for their larger roles they're planning during the Dance & the way they decided to go about that is to create conflict b/t the fan fav sisters. And I think they might try to to argue or imply that she is resentful bc of not just second-son syndrome, but basically Baela was picked by their grandparents to be closer and let Rhaena be. Why not both of them, if they are already seeming to break tradition? It will likely folow the theme of silent rejection the show allows the audience to quickly assume from episode 6, where Rhaena bemoans Daemon ignoring her bc of her not hatching an egg...which I already talked about.

Baela--for a very dumb reason--becomes the "ward" of the Velaryons & Rhaenys wants Corlys to name Baela as his heir...presumably without consulting Daemon, the girl's father or Viserys, the head of the house Baela is actually a part of and who would determine how his house's possible heirs inherit what over other candidates...bc Baela & Rhaena are both technically still in line for the throne though they aren't titled as princesses. Just way down and the claims would get stronger the more people before them die...which we already see in the bk.

Anyway, Baela is seemingly older than Rhaena instead of being her twin as by canon; she has a dragon where Rhaena does not; she is, bc she is older, taken to Driftmark to learn the ways of a leader as if she might become the head of a house or whatever even though we also know that Corlys has definitely not named her his heir by his & Rhaenys' conversation in the last episode (so for 6 years why is Baela there without being named when they could just visit each other--her and Rhaenys--by ship and dragonback [pic below] idk, the spectacle of it?).

And while Rhaena loved her dad, loved her stepsiblings/1st cousins-once-removed & I believe that Rhaenyra was a great stepmother to her, because the show did not show us their lives, they will take advantage of that and present us with a lot of stuff like this--breaking lore and going along with the breakage to build their own tale but also sometimes not showing a logical progression from that point of breakage [again, lok to the link abt cradle-bonding].

Yes, there's the argument that Daemon is merely worried over Rhaena's being singled put and left out or belittled, sidelined, for not having a dragon as he felt being a second son/child even with his dragon...but again, look to my post about cradle-bonds and the history of dragon bonds he supposedly knows and it becomes still dumb when he still ends up doing the very thing he's supposed to have feared for his daughter, to her.

Would it have helped if the writers actually developed these people's lives before the Dance and actually think through their plot decisions if they planned to make Rhaena-Daemon's deal this, absolutely! But we have what we have.

Show!Rhaena could come to just resent her sister for all this perceived favoritism.

I may be wrong, who knows.

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRhWhuIb0AAFl2t?format=jpg&name=900x900

I never envisaged they could give Rhaena the whole “Nettles story”, not just Sheepstealer.

I was talking to a friend the other day about Daemon’s arc this season, I believe his arc will not help him realize how he has neglected his daughters (despite loving them) and he will try to be a better father and protect Rhaena from Rhaenyra’s wrath/paranoia… which is why I believe the fallout between Daemon and Rhaenyra will happen because she’ll try to harm one of his daughters. His willingness to die will make so much sense if this happens.

This is too incredible to be true. Rhaenyra go after the stepdaughter she took in as her own daughter for 10 plus years? Yeah, no. With Nettles--a literal unknown before the Dance and who was a Dragonseed like the Betraying Ulf/Hugh--it made so much more sense for Rhaenyra and her council to blame or suspect her, even with her loyalty. Because we also know that other possible dragonriding families with their loyalties more likely to turn has been a source of anxiety for Targs since at least Jaehaerys I (Elissa Farman stealing the eggs)!

This storyline is also further proof of HotD unnecessaarily isolating Rhaenyra from every female supporter and family she does stronger bonds with canonically [pessimisticpigeonsworld's post]. And how this show has its misogynoir BAKED-BAKED in since Laena undermined for Daemyra and Rhaenicent.

But IF true. Anyone who supports this storyline is dumb. I'm very not sorry.

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Oh, Nettles really has been cut this season and everything points towards her being cut entirely. Mostly because Condal refuses to discuss her at all in interviews while he doesn’t do that with Daeron, Maelor, or any other yet unseen book character. There’s also very, very strong evidence of Rhaena claiming Sheepstealer this season.

Ryan went out of his way to expand upon other dragonseeds such as Addam, Alyn, Hugh, and Ulf this season while Nettles is a no show.

Why give a character no development, steal her dragon, steal every detail that makes her compelling, and then randomly plop her into season 3 with an immediate romance with Daemon ?

Ryan is also doing something every different with Nettles in interviews than he did with Daeron. When people ask when Daeron will show up, he has always been consistent that Daeron existed and would be apart of the show at some point. He’s even willing to talk about Maelor who hasn’t showed up yet either. When he gets asked about Nettles, he straight up ignores the question and changes topics.

I agree, Nettles doesn't seem to be real in HotD. Which, you know, tells us something abt how some people don't understand Nettles' narrative importance both in the controversy over Rhaenyra--whether or not she sought to arrest her merely to allay her own paranoia over the Dragonseeds after Ulf and Hugh's Betrayals/Tumbleton, or whether she merely sought to question her, or whether she truly thought Nettles was a witch who seduced Daemon as Septon Eustace claims--OR in her paralleling & reaffirming Daenerys Stormborn. Rhaena can't occupy that role, at all.

Rhaena's Daemon's trueborn daughter, has been a part for Rhaenyra's household and family for years already (trust is already there), was waiting on Morning to hatch, and was never with Daemon at Maidenpool but at the Vale. So what will induce Daemon to meet Aemond-Vhagar sooner rather than later?

They already co-opted so much from the supposedly "Mad" Daenerys for Rhaenyra and the greens. Misogynoir is baked into this project, and no, that Rhaena's own unique storyline is tweaked the way it seems it's going, it's still misogynoir for her as well: POST #1 & POST#2.

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*EDIT* (7/5/24)

A Later Anon Had This to Say:

So... none of the eggs Rhaena leaves with are Morning. They actually confirmed they're Dany's three eggs and a blue one for Viserys. So if they truly do combine Rhaena with Nettles, how tf are they going to pull that off without it being crazy stupid or misogynistic? The council's whole justification was "she has no ties to our cause, we don't know her, and we don't know if she's been working with the Betrayers the whole time. If one more rider defects to the Greens it's over." None of those apply to Rhaena. So what, instead of the council pushing for strategic reasons, Rhaenyra's going to turn into a ranting raving evil stepmother that the men try to reason with and everyone can laugh about how she's worse than Alicent? Or will it be another "misunderstanding" in which case, why would Daemon ever believe she would order it? Does this mean that Rhaena will have a MASSIVE dragon? If she flees Rhaenyra specifically, why would Aegon risk killing Rhaenyra and bringing Rhaena out of hiding? Why would the war not immediately be over the moment Rhaenyra and Sunfyre die and Rhaena has the last huge dragon? The whole point of the dance is that targaryens and their women were left vulnerable. How is that still true if instead of a hatchling, she has a dragon big enough that she and Caraxes were seen as enough to take down Vhagar? Big enough for her and Baela to say, "fuck you. We're Aegon's regents."

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Re: Rhaena and Nettles

I keep thinking of the reasoning the GOT producers gave for giving Sansa the Jeyne Poole plot from A Dance with Dragons. They said they wanted to use the Jeyne’s plot but Jeyne wasn’t a character on the show. They also needed to give Sansa something more active to do, since once she’s off in the Vale she’s just sort of there. They felt it was logical to give the plot to an established character whom the audience already has some investment in, rather than introducing someone new. Whether or not we appreciated their choice in the end, I do see the logic behind their decision. Rhaena doesn’t really have much to do otherwise, all of her shining moments come AFTER the war. And if the Rhaena thing proves true, it would seem the HOTD team feel similarly. The more I think about it, the more I believe adapting Nettles for the show might be a more difficult prospect than we the audience may have appreciated, and in the end they may have decided just to sidestep the difficulties altogether.

Perhaps needs to be attached to this post.

Sansa getting raped onscreen and taking away her actual beginnings of learning to do real politics was already just another terrible writing decision itself and yes there were a million other ways to have "given her more to do" that didn't involve rape, anon. So you're off to a very rough start trying to invoke this particular D&D choice and trying to validate the merging of Rhaena-Nettles thing with it and negate the misogynoir of this merge.

I want to repeat myself: this merge is the not the beginning of the misogynoir, it's the continuation of it. I already talked about Laena and the whole deal with Rhaena and her egg.

Now, I don't see how it'd be hard for Nettles to be adapted...why? Perhaps bc of runtime...perhaps they shouldn't have gone on shooting without writers on set during the strike, or you know...write Daemon and the twins' relationships as they were in the first place?

Oh, you definitely could write Rhaena doing "stuff" at the Vale under Jeyne Arryn's tutelage. Schmoozing with ladies and lords, getting to know her future 1st husband, reading up on dragonlore, learning diplomacy matters, building those connections for the set up towards her brother Aegon's protection later on. But perhaps the audience is not trusted to appreciate & engage in such things 🤷🏿‍♂️. No blood and gore and violent spectacle there, after all. And this is the same fandom that don't know what taxes are about (bride-of-fires' post).

So, again, it seems there is a lack of imagination to work with the material given bc they don't have much room else to fit such next to their encompassing egos. IDK.

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This is probably an unpopular opinion on this blog but my annoyance wasn't with the Vale having problems with Rhaenyra and Rhaena/Joffrey having a subplot fixing it because I I even think they had very little room to do it based on the book, even if it hadn't lasted more than two chapters.

The book is a little strange with the dragons and their sizes, Tessarion is one of the largest and it is implied that it is because she is female (although dragons change gender) and Joffrey's Tyraxes (10?) is bigger than Baela's Moondancer (13?) and with Arrax and Luke dead Joffrey and Tyraxes seem to be the best decision because Jace (the heir) couldn't take that place. So in the book the dragon sent is not up for debate, they essentially sent him their largest dragon available which was not essential to the war effort (as would be Caraxes) or important political figures who had to be somewhere else (Rhaenyra and Jace). But Joffrey is about 10 years old, leaving your protection in the hands of a prepubescent boy must have been uncomfortable.

But that is not only solved by what I explained above, but in the books Rhaenyra's children also seem to be super competent as squires, which would probably be a good measure for them to play their skills by.

So unlike other things I do think there could have been a small point of contention and it would have been interesting to see Rhaena's political competence noticing that and smoothing any feathers.

The problem is once again how the BIG changes they have made ruin everything around them.The only one competent in any field is Aemond, a true renaissance man almost at the god level.Aegon and Joffrey's dragons really look like they just hatched. Joffrey is 6 or 7 years old. And, most importantly, Jeyne has no political or personal interest in supporting Rhaenyra.

The Vale plot is so hard to believe that it breaks my entire suspension of disbelief because with what they show us Jeyne should consider handing over these convenient hostages, It would be more politically convenient for her at this point.

Well, Rhaena comes with one baby dragon and an egg (Viserys only had an egg, not a dragon). Also, in the bk, Joffrey was never sent to the Vale, that's a show invention. So Jeyne welcomed Rhaena alone...bc she wanted to help a fellow woman and kin in Rhaenyra so that she can assure a woman's protection as well as her own security as the chosen heir of her father. In the past she had to deal with her cousins try to oust her. So yeah, she has a lot of "political interest" in helping out Rhaenyra, even more so than Cregan stark who similarly had to deal with a relative to get back his seat. The state of womanhood is a political state and element of "interest" that defines politics in Westeros. You can't separate them at all, it will always be a factor as much as it is for people today. Bk!Jeyne's decisions toward supporting Rhaenyra and motivations are and always have been "political" AND "personal".

*Correction* Joffrey was indeed told that he'd be sent to defend the Vale, but i never read it to be him actually defending the Vale so much as a way to placate him. However, after Jace's death and the younger boys' own traumatic evenrt/loss of Viserys, Rhaenrya decided to keep this heir, the last of the Velaryon boys, close *Correction*

When Rhaena arrived, she didn't seem to be aggravated or feel tricked but actually welcomed Rhaena bc she would have understood how Jace (the heir) & Joffrey/Aegon/Viserys (a set of children, no soldiers, with smaller dragons) had to stay behind. As for Baela, the girl herself wanted to protect her family and had the strength of will/a grown enough dragon (for defense) to get her way (thank god!). Rhaena the dragonless was sent bc didn't have that reprieve. This daughter of the man Jeyne despised, she decided to take under her proverbial Arryn wing and seemed to think that it was an honor to receive her. Once again, yes she had troubles with clans, but all the "useable" dragons could not be separated away from those who'd need them against the greens. As long as they won, they would bring about their end of the bargain. And they'd need to win for that to happen.

Despite the greens having dragons, she was willing to take the blacks on bc of the family/woman link that she saw he had to take on. Her reasoning, like most things concerning politics/life, is a multitude of distinct but related motivations.

It doesn't seem you read this properly.

(you just made me realize that if Targs have such strong mental and emotional bonds w/their dragons, it is possible that child Aegon felt Stormcloud's pain--emotional or otherwise--and terror, which would have compounded on the loss and sens eof isolation he'd later go through...damn)

We know that Arrax, Tyraxes, Vermax, Moondancer were all grown enough to relied on for a flight even though we don't have the exact length of distance. And that they were definitely all would have been able to sustain more than Stormcloud. Tessarion is not applicable bc she is obviously a green's dragon but also she was big enough to sustain herself against Vermithor and Seasmoke for a bit before finally succumbing. Which also means she was pretty big, enough that the only way they could tell her sex is that she had to have laid an egg at some point. Either that or Daeron for some reason or other preferred to think of her as female and it stuck for him. The exact reason is lost to time.

Jeyne expected at least one enough/fully-grown dragon, of which the blacks had 3 (Moondancer, Vermax, Syrax), of which two could have sent off to her to guard the Vale for a bit. And in the book, it is the same that Stormcloud was a small young dragon, though he was not big enough to both carry Aegon across the bay and resist multiple arrows.

Finally, I don't think that even in the show Aemond is all that competent. He is arguably more so than his book counterpart, but he's about to make huge mistakes out of pride and already has in Luke's murder. he show just decided that Luke's murder doesn't really matter.

So once again, if we think more about the implications of characters actions even in a fictional historical book, we'll see the likeliest reasons why some characters say/do what they say/do. which the showrunner failed to do but could have easily written but instead chose to go with "doing their own thing". So I don't have that many routes of concession for them here.

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So... none of the eggs Rhaena leaves with are Morning. They actually confirmed they're Dany's three eggs and a blue one for Viserys. So if they truly do combine Rhaena with Nettles, how tf are they going to pull that off without it being crazy stupid or misogynistic? The council's whole justification was "she has no ties to our cause, we don't know her, and we don't know if she's been working with the Betrayers the whole time. If one more rider defects to the Greens it's over."

None of those apply to Rhaena. So what, instead of the council pushing for strategic reasons, Rhaenyra's going to turn into a ranting raving evil stepmother that the men try to reason with and everyone can laugh about how she's worse than Alicent? Or will it be another "misunderstanding" in which case, why would Daemon ever believe she would order it?

Does this mean that Rhaena will have a MASSIVE dragon? If she flees Rhaenyra specifically, why would Aegon risk killing Rhaenyra and bringing Rhaena out of hiding? Why would the war not immediately be over the moment Rhaenyra and Sunfyre die and Rhaena has the last huge dragon? The whole point of the dance is that targaryens and their women were left vulnerable. How is that still true if instead of a hatchling, she has a dragon big enough that she and Caraxes were seen as enough to take down Vhagar? Big enough for her and Baela to say, "fuck you. We're Aegon's regents."

And if they aren't merging her with Nettles... why no Morning egg?

I can't see where they're going with this and I don't mean that in a good way.

Didn't watch the episode. Still haven't watched the 3rd one. I also pointed out similar stuff you did in a previous post. didn't emphasize how Rhaenyra could become a crazy evil stepmom that Alicent was closest to or how the council turns on Nettles and Addam specifically, though, nice catch. I haven't been keeping up with al the leaks, pictures of eggs, etc., I don't even know about there being a 4th egg. Do they mention/show Stormcloud?

Either way, you bring up very valid concerns, and more reason why Rhaena and Nettles can never be merged storyline wise even for production costs bc it all just falls apart. Be creative--which is your job--and MAKE it work. But you know, this is a marketing project, not a story or a faithful adaptation.

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I mean, there was always those who believed that Nettles was Daemon’s bastard daughter anyway so might as well replace her with his actual trueborn daughter ? Daemon and Nettles having a father/daughter or mentor/protégé relationship feels unfair and cruel to his two daughters, Rhaena has always felt ignored by her father, so if he does something to show her how much he loves her before ultimately giving his life while saving hers ? That would be hugely impactful. If Rhaena gets to be the daughter Daemon mentors and grows close to, the way he did with Nettles if you read their relationship as that of a surrogate father and his mentee (which I did, the idea that Nettles was his lover always felt like a manipulation by Mysaria to make Rhaenyra more paranoid), that’s going to be extremely satisfying to me.

People are assuming that the writers won’t do anything to show Daemon finally building more of a relationship with his daughters BEFORE that point, and we already know that they did and it was filmed (him holding both of them and grieving with them after Laena’s death). But they ultimately cut it from the episode because they wanted to hold back on that. To me, that indicates that the writers have ideas for how to show Daemon cares about his daughters, the producers are just holding back in order to give it more impact later.

Maybe you respond to this post.

Daemon and Nettles having a father/daughter or mentor/protégé relationship feels unfair and cruel to his two daughters, Rhaena has always felt ignored by her father, so if he does something to show her how much he loves her before ultimately giving his life while saving hers

A) This is ignoring & trying to make neutral the rewrite of making these girls' relationships w/Daemon...that way. As if the nixing was not that big of a deal. Why does it feel cruel? Because these writers--for no reason but misogynoir AND to make Daemon be comparatively, more unambiguously "bad" seemingly to make Rhaenyra look all the more "good"--decided to make those relationships that way when they had little real evidence for why it'd be that way!!! In fact contradictory evidence!!! Again, I don't take this show "seriously". As in, the writing is too bad and the characters are not themselves, so other than for some specific things, I don't engage with characters emotionally.

Ultimately, I don't think what you're suggesting has enough emotional payoff for what we lost...bc how we got there--S1 wise (real the post linked in "contradictory")--was unearned bc the logic simply wasn't there. (I guess for those who know of the lore, anyway.) How these bonds are not formed--if you wanted to go dysfunctional daddy-daughter-cuz-Daemon bad route--was so swiss-holed I simply can't take it seriously.

B) Perhaps this will be too caustic, but I don't think that your suggestions would be making things "better". Bc whatever happens in the future, it will always be a direct contradiction to the life Daemon & Rhaenyra would have built with these girls on Dragonstone those 10 odd years in the original story. And Baela would still be left out. It's not just Rhaena who Daemon ignores in the show. Removing Nettles from the equation merely flattens the entire story instead of expands it beyond Daemon and Rhaenyra. Flattens it back to a inner familial dispute over the suggested magical paths towards referring to Daenerys (POST [from danylanzhou of Twitter] & Rhaena being the last to hatch an egg by herself as Dany hatches her 3 by herself). And we're constricted to these characters rather than them, plus council members, plus later goldcloaks (when Rhaenyra does what she does at KL). Finally, the controversy over Dameon x Nettles is a necessary ingredient to how Rhaenyra falls...and Rhaenyra ordering for her husband daughter's head Or her arrest is beyond absurd, even for grieving mothers.

Perhaps you want that "bittersweetness". For me, it wouldn;t be sweet in anyway, bc there was all matter of opportunity for Daemon to build relationships with his daughters...it's way too much to expect from people that him suddenly deciding at the last possible moment to be a dad to ONE girl he immediately has access to almost immediately before he dies at the 11th hour to make me feel something positive about it. Especially when he has no compelling reason for it & when there is already so much more misogynoir baked into this show (like Rhaenyra treating her stepdaughters more like employees and that's just ONE thing).

Of course....IF all this abt the leaks will appear in the show.

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I knew this would be unpopular but if the writers go all in on replacing Nettles with Rhaena, Rhaenyra irrationally blaming her for the Gullet is the only opening they have. They cannot do the “Nettles is Daemon’s bastard” angle properly because Hess and Condal literally cut out all of the scenes that shows that Daemon loves Baela and Rhaena and is a good father. People will think “why doesn’t he try to repair the relationship with his trueborn daughters instead of spending time with a girl that he met yesterday ?”

Rhaenyra later turning against her for some other reason would be even more irrational. It’s either that or dropping Rhaenyra going after Rhaena (as stand in for Nettles) all together. Which I guess means radically shifting how they get to Daemon’s ending.

I don't think that I said that this (blaming her for the Gullet) wasn't a good track for the story they wrote. I implied that the whole thing--from the girls first appearances--was headed towards something very unsatisfactory bc they they didn't bother to actually develop these "unorthodox" relationships that flourished at Dragonstone. And this track is still pretty unsatisfactory precisely because of that reduction and misdirection that began back in S1 epi6.

Oh, and none of this really negates the presence of the misogynoir written against Laena from the jump that the extends to how Daemon treats her daughters.