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david-talks-sw · 2 years

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why do so many people hate on Mace Windu?

'Cause he's too much of a badass for them to handle! Jokes aside, this is a subject I came across a few times. If I had to guess why?

1. "Mace was a jerk to Anakin!"

A lot of people see Mace as "always being antagonistic towards Anakin". When - if you look at the facts - that's not really true.

In Episode I, sure, Mace initially votes to not let Anakin into the Jedi Order. But shortly after, when it's put to a vote a second time, Yoda is the only one still not wanting Anakin to join.

Implying... that Mace was cool with it!

Hell, there's even a non-canon comic that covered this, with Windu actually arguing letting Anakin into the Jedi Order against Yoda because he thinks Anakin will bring Balance to the Force.

In the comic, he also suggests giving Qui-Gon’s lightsaber to Anakin.

In Episode II, he's actually defending Anakin. He and the Council are confident in Anakin's ability to have his first solo mission, praising Anakin's skills and - in a deleted scene - even reminding Obi-Wan to have more faith in his Padawan.

Finally, in Episode III, at a first glance, it looks like Mace is indeed written in a way that makes him antagonistic to Anakin (the same Anakin who turns to the Dark Side in the same film, so maybe his instincts weren't so off after all...)

A lot of people say "he says he doesn't trust Anakin!" and I've already covered what that's really about here:

TLDR: he says he doesn't trust Anakin when he's 1) on a secret mission 2) with Palpatine. Which makes sense, because Anakin isn't exactly subtle and he has an emotional attachment toward Palpatine who everyone can see has Anakin wrapped around his finger.

Also, if you wanna count it... the novelization of Revenge of the Sith justifies this by the unbearable stress he is under.

A stress due to the Clone War and his whole Order being drafted into being warriors when they're supposed to be diplomats, thus causing hundred if not friends of his comrades to die (and don't even get me started on how hard the loss of clone lives must weigh on him).

Jedi of the Republic: Mace Windu writer Matt Owens seems to echo this sentiment:

"The Jedi are like atomic bombs: they have so much power, but they really don’t want to use it. Mace is a masterful warrior who doesn’t relish fighting. Such use of his power goes against his code, but if he doesn’t use it, what will become of the Republic? As a member of the Jedi Council, he is under pressure because he is a leader. He’s forced into an uncomfortable situation where he is doing something he doesn’t entirely agree with for what he believes is ultimately the greater good. But he has to be sure of himself because he has so many others looking to him for direction." - Matt Owens, Star Wars Insider Special Edition, 2021

So it's not personal toward Anakin at all, but Anakin's whining and making it all about himself certainly isn't relieving the stress.

But hey, let's suppose he is a dick to Anakin in Episode III (he's not, but let's go along with it).

That's still one movie out of three. So if there's a change in attitude toward Anakin from Attack of the Clones to Revenge of the Sith...

... what spurred it?

What event would make Mace go from telling Obi-Wan to have faith in Anakin to having him be adversarial toward him?

It would've been nice to see that in an episode from The Clone Wars, which partially exists to fill in the gaps between AOTC and ROTS.

I mean, was there a time where, for example, Anakin prioritized saving Ahsoka over a bunch of people in a building, leaving Mace to do it himself?

Still, we get moments between them, and they're not all negative:

They have fun banter, at times, right? But then we hear Dave Filoni say that Mace had an issue with Anakin from day one.

"You see, Mace Windu’s the guy that tells little Anakin ‘no, he will not be trained’. You cut to Anakin and he’s like, ‘What??’ There’s this look on Anakin’s face like, 'I’m gonna remember that, you’re a negative, why are you doing that?’ So you have to look at it, the Jedi are - though they mean really well for Anakin – they’re always telling him 'no’. They’re always saying 'no, you’ll be expelled, you’ll have to leave the Jedi Order’. [...] So when you get to that point-- all these things I’m talking about get you to that point where Palpatine’s on the ground and Mace Windu has a lightsaber at his throat and he’s saying “he’s the traitor”. So Anakin’s there and he’s choosing between the guy that’s always told him “no” - that, while he respects him and [Mace’s] not a mentor, but he’s a fellow Jedi - and the father figure [of Palpatine] who holds the key possibly to immortality and you saving this person you love in Padmé." - Dave Filoni, Rebel Force Radio, Star Wars Fan Days III, 2009

So... I honestly don't know who to listen to.

If we're meant to see Mace as "negative toward Anakin" then the episodes failed to convey that properly.

If we're not, then why is Dave Filoni saying the above?

Same thing goes for the recently-published novel Brotherhood, written by Mike Chen.

Like, I want to give the novel the benefit of the doubt and say "yeah, but we're only seeing Mace through Anakin's eyes, so of course the opinion is biased and exaggerated." But then I hear Mike Chen say stuff like this...

"And, like, [Anakin’s] constantly pulled in every direction and the finally, when you go from that to Revenge of the Sith where it’s like “hey, my wife is going to die unless I listen to my cool uncle, who has never been mean to me” and then you have Mace Windu who’s like “TAKE A SEAT, SKYWALKER!” y’know, it’s like who’re you gonna listen to? It really makes sense, it feels very organic, from that perspective." - Mike Chen, Beyond the Blast Doors, 2021

... and it's clear my arguing "unreliable narration" would just be me expressing a headcanon.

2. "Mace represents everything wrong with the Jedi"

Then, another argument I heard once is that he embodies everything wrong with the Jedi Order. As said in this comment here:

Wow, that's a whole bunch of hate hurled in Mace's direction.

Also inaccurate.

The fact is, Mace is - like most Jedi - a space shaolin/buddhist monk. He's incredibly wise and spiritual as heck. But when it comes to it, he's a no-bullshit kind of guy, especially when considering the Jedi being forced into a war.

As Samuel L. Jackson put its:

"Mace is a voice of reason. He thinks before he speaks. He's pretty calculating, mostly even-tempered, and he's not to be trifled with. He knows that the war is coming and he has a pretty good idea who is behind it. [...] Mace Windu has known Obi-Wan Kenobi for a very long time. Mace was a contemporary of Qui-Gon Jinn. He understood his faults and admired his qualities and can see that Obi-Wan has taken on some of Qui-Gon's strongheadedness by wanting to train Anakin Skywalker." - Samuel L. Jackson, as reported in Star Wars Insider: The Skywalker Saga Collector’s Edition, 2021

That doesn't mean Mace isn't compassionate or empathetic. On the contrary:

Here’s Mace taking down a criminal who was using child soldiers.

See that teenager who shoots at him in the final panels? At the end of the comic, he tries to have her freed.

Then, here’s Mace going out of his way to save a Twi'lek girl.

And this post, right here, lists a ton of examples of Mace putting others before himself in The Clone Wars.

Oh, you wanna go Legends? Let's go Legends.

Here’s Mace before and after saving an old lady from thugs.

Here’s Mace being kind to a starving Sith worshipper who tried to start a mob to kill them, choosing talk and mercy over violence.

Here's Mace praising Anakin!

One time, Obi-Wan almost died on a mission. Mace stayed by Anakin's side the whole time Obi-Wan was undergoing surgery.

Here’s Mace calmly agreeing to disagree with a Jedi who thinks the Order shouldn’t have joined the Clone War.

Hell, here’s Mace being nice to animals.

Mace Windu embodies everything right about the Jedi Order.

3. Misc "arguments"...

A number of silly, small things I hear sometimes:

"Oh he called her 'citizen' what an asshole!" He refers to her the same way she referred to herself. Ahsoka's been gone for months she doesn't have context and letting her into the fold in that particular instant would spell disaster. It's not personal, Mace even gives her a respectful nod before the call ends.

Then there's:

"Mace never apologized for the way the Council treated Ahsoka!" Because Plo Koon apologized on behalf of the whole Council.

“You have OUR most humble Ahsoka.” Plural. He’s speaking for all of them, nobody contradicts him, thus showing they agree. It’s a 22-minute TCW episode, they’re not gonna have each Council member apologize individually. It’s common sense. I'd also hazard that the "this was your real trial" line lingered from the first draft of the script as originally, Ahsoka didn't leave the Order at the end of "The Wrong Jedi" and prolly got promoted to Jedi Knight.

Also:

"Mace Windu once believed himself to be the Chosen One, he was jealous of Anakin!"

Uh... I'm just gonna post this one again...

Then there's this one I read which just made me cringe:

*sigh*

Yeah that TOTALLY sounds like something Mace “You Can’t Kill The Zillo Beast 'Cause It’s An Innocent Living Creature” Windu would do.

Intentionally leading his Jedi brothers to slaughter is so typical Mace “Get The Men To Safety While I Risk My Life For Them” Windu behavior.

So, why do some fans not like him?

I honestly dunno.

The only other reason I can think of (like the other Jedi, he's not as flawed as Anakin, some see him and the Jedi as holier than thou, he's nothing like Luke Skywalker) is explored more in detail here:

#Mace Windu #Samuel L. Jackson #In Defense of the Jedi #Jedi Order #Jedi Positivity #jedi order #meta #anakin skywalker #star wars #Master Windu #long post #this one was a long time coming!

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