#sehhinah spoilers

[lepertamar]

the only prophet in sehhinah, i think, is kjorel. but also, even with him it's only until 'is agony, an infinity', at which point the sheer brimming unknownness of the world and future overtakes the prophetness that dogged him for the whole lead-up…………

bc i think w kjorel it's like........throughout most of the book he Knows he is Doomed and that all his roads lead to [IT] in a sense of like, ae is already in him bc he already Knows what ae is and knows what it means, especially so after the pillar, like the whole chapter 'a million times' in a quite time-collapsing way of will happen happening happened//godfuckable godfucking godfucked……BUT, in an extremely characteristic sehhinah way, the IT that happens is not a break or end or freezing or narrowing. or not even actualizing, not even a reveal/uncovering/accepting, but instead an accumulation a reaction an expansion a setting in motion of [infinite possibilities]....it’s just that within finitude on the brim of infinite there is some portion of opportunity cost, as always

[ivanaskye]

“And then there’s Entangled Tongues….” // “A Holy of a Holy—“

And then there’s Entangled Tongues, the so-called ‘Holy bar’, although of course it doesn’t have any actual entrance requirements. Still, everyone knows. And it’s hard for drinks to be to everyone’s taste when they’re intended for a clientele that includes a number of people without taste buds.

i went through a tonnnn of possible names for this bar--even almost went a little out of the abrahamic purview and had a possible buddhism reference in mind (the jewel net), but i couldn't quite get it down to a good sounding bar name.

The wooden door opens with a slight creak to the darkened bar, where at least thirty people are piled on the floor.

“Hey, is anyone injured, does anyone need help?” Elīya asks.

There’s a moment of silence, one person starting to groan out a grumble—

But then Tamar shouts out, “So, guys, what’s up with God? Anyone have ideas?”

And at least twenty voices start talking, all at once.

this seems to be a favorite line for many, lol. one of my betas suddenly exclaimed "WAIT ARE HOLIES JEWS????" at this. i think more accurately i built the holies in general out of reasoning 'ok, what kind of person would make this choice--' but maybe that amounts to a fairly similar thing.

And Yairēn’s never met this many Holies at once before, and yet there’s something familiar about them, collapsed on each other and draping halfway down stairs as they are, lighting the room with fire from eyes and mouth and ears and glowing from the ember-char of burned limbs. They have seen someone—or heard Them, or spoke Them, or danced to Their song or grasped Their flame—enough to burn, and she knows what that’s like.

Knows someone who was so scared of something—not burning but similar—that they kept their very hand sealed away for years. Knows someone else who is nothing so hot but could fill you just as easily.

Yes, she thinks she understands the clientele here, just as she thinks she might suspect why they have all been knocked down in the way they have.

not much to say here

She sets the wheel-angel on a plush chair that seems like acceptable seating for someone of his shape;

tbh it's a little sad that it took me this long to get to a wheel-angel. love a good wheel friend.

Elīya props Tamar against the wall.

Someone nearby, legs like charcoal etched with shifting embers, maybe the most upright person here on account of their wheelchair catching them as they droop, notices the angel and shouts, “Hey, Wormwood, glad you could show up!”

Yairēn tilts her head at him. “You’re named after a… beverage ingredient?”

because, of course, that name wouldn't have any other connotations in this setting. (and in case you need the reminder, it's specifically one of the herbs used in absinthe.)

“Well—” he stumbles on this word and buzzes, then seems to shake himself, readjusting his wheels. “My real name’s Artiya’il, but a man can have”—his wing twitches, just like when it hit her in the face—“nicknames…”

i think andie suggested this name and i uhhhh may have forgotten why.

There’s people talking, raucous, shouting back and forth—Elīya’s in action, mostly fetching water for people, it seems—but Yairēn has nothing she needs to do and so she focuses on listening, though these are far from ideal conditions for one of her secondary languages.

So of course the first of the many overlapping shouting sentences she catches is, “God sounds like… there’s another Them?”

Yairēn straightens, her wings twitching. It is what she suspected, then. But how…? Jibril said They’d never really understood before…

yairēn's cute white birdlike wings, explicitly unlike angel wings,

“Oh, is it an evil twin, like in the books?” the Holy on the wheelchair says. “Because that sounds hot—”

whether they're referring just to evil twin books in general or a specific evil-twin-of-god trope is left to the reader

“Oh my God, Ahru, you are so predictable!” someone else shouts.

speaking of types of people who would choose to become holy,

“Pst, hey, not-Holy who wants to help,” someone says behind her, barely holding themself up by the stair railing. They’re eye-price like Tamar but are looking directly at her. “Can you help Enniš sit up? He’s tongue-price and can’t sign too well on the ground—”

“YOOO,” an ear-price suddenly shouts, “I CAN’T HEAR ANY OF YOU BUT I THINK GOD GOT HOLIFIED BY GOD?”

>_o

Yairēn was going to go help this Enniš, she really was, but now she’s stopped in her tracks.

Holified? By someone else? That’s not—that’s not a simple thing, not a casual thing—that’s something that would influence the world forever—

>>_oo

“Another… version of God?” “See, I’m saying there’s an evil twin—” “ANYONE UPRIGHT ENOUGH TO SIGN???”

extremely fun times in this bar :DD

From halfway across the bar, Elīya’s giving her a look. Shit—she’s pretty sure that’s the look that means she should actually be helping.

classic elīya moment, number who knows

But if the reason God finally knows is that… What kind of person would be that kind of God, would…

but yeah, these are important considerations

She shakes herself out of it and sets herself to propping the one guy upright, flames wisping and flickering out of his mouth, but irregularly. It seems irregular now for all the Holies, and this one angel she’s seen so far, which would make sense if—

God, she hopes whoever it is is someone Jibril can like. Can get along with.

'man i hope my friend who has the creator of the universe in their body is cool with this y2k network merger--'

And what does it mean for all these Holies, if God was made Holy to another, Themself? A Holy of a Holy—

i actually did not intend the 'holy of holies' reference :p

[lepertamar]

from discord:

honestly quite impressed with the way sehhinah is really precisely and fine-tunedly constructed as ‘the Only way you can enjoy and like g-d, as an incredibly charming and delightful person+character, is IF you are 1. also super in favor of how the entire basis of the entire world's in-universe theology for 6 millennia has been explicitly that They have No moral authority AND 2. super into the way They get super dubcon ravished and overcome and demonstrated to not be the only god' (not only because, but also in part because, g-d is also extremely impressed with both 1. and 2. and find them to be like The Two Most Cool and Incredible Things They've Ever Experienced, in a very parashat vayishlach way lol). there are some theological aspects of sehhinah that allow a fairly wide range of interpretations but this particular narrative straitjacket created out of several different elements is pretty uncompromising afaict agnsgngngnfnfbf? and i’m. interested in this on a ~craft level. it’s quite hard to make stuff like this in fiction a....obvious preexisting basis from which to branch out further which is logically + emotionally inherent from first principles, rather than a Hot Take Endpoint. especially given how hard it is to get people to 'actually see what's on the page' (to quote someone). like i want to compare it to other sff books that have made certain conceptions of worldbuilding/worldview/philosophy/cosmology into like, an Obvious Basis despite being extremely not-obvious-bases irl (in fact, are almost impossible to get anyone to consider bases irl)…..however my mind is blanking. i know they exist tho. maaaaaaybe actual IRL ancient (NOT gr**k/r*man!!) literature/unrevised oral tradition that was 'rediscovered' by the global perspective, rather than being known of and therefore subtly incorporated and defanged to fit into it over the centuries, would be closer? thinking about this for example.

[lepertamar]

gonna literally cry maybe about these 3 reviewers's descriptions of šehhinah!G-d in Lives:

both involves God as an absorbing (in two different senses) curious, tricksterly character who delights in inviting the new and the other and the chaotic and can be actually worthy of monotheism; and the secret realization that God is not in fact the only god, and that there are normal humans who, if told this secret, could, by identifying as a god, make it become so, reach apotheosis and in effect topple Them in some way? x

God who, according to the covenant made before even Nam’ir’s time, is still painstakingly listening and sorting through the endless cacophonous arguments of hundreds of generations of the world about what kind of afterlife should exist. God is a character with as distinct a personality as any human character, as any sci-fi alien creature: curious, capricious, laughing, deeply proud and vain, a fierce dominant lover to those They burn, a brilliant incorporeal alien telepath who also struggles with communicating in language and strives to help Teśena’s paradoxical theurgy barriers, scoffing at the idea that any person can be ‘too much’ or ’too much like themselves’ — though They do not yet know what Nam’ir knew. The way God’s own limited point of view and expectations are brought through as something relatably familiar enough to feel ironic is fantastically delivered on. x

By this book there is no doubt in my mind: Šehhinah contains my favorite depiction of God I’ve ever read in fiction. From their first appearance, bending attentively over Teśena with smug gleeful arrogance like a summoned genie with folded arms, to their last appearance, bowing low before aer with wry admiring laughter, Their charisma and vividness never abates. They are complex and paradoxical, being extremely prideful and careless, yet extending that demanding confidence to all other beings. Extremely bad at understanding beings unlike themself, but dedicated to achieving this understanding despite being bad at it. I really get the sense that the basic principles of the world, in its amoral branching chains of diverse recombination, feels exactly like what an entity like this would invite and will into existence to mirror Its impulses and curiosity. I found the character of God delicious in book 1, and interesting in their more limited appearance in book 2, but this book, where they go through a truly transformative arc of frustrated confusion, dazzled shock, horror, panic, desperate despair and bitterness, to wicked delight in being defeated and excitement at being able to give other people some of their responsibilities, and never look away from or try to minimize the truth once they see it, is the best. And what, what a partnership they make with Tamar! And the many other holies who appear! x

[lepertamar]

So seeing as you’re also a fan of Star Trek TOS and vulcans, I thought I’d share an observation........in the stars that rise at dawn, the whole Tamar-Elīya drama/the Tamar Incident when she runs away to become a holy, is kind of a deep subversion of the thing in the first Star Trek movie where Spock runs away from Kirk and the Enterprise and tries to take the Kolinahr ritual....but of course Spock was wrong and Tamar was right :’)

EDIT: i got and wrote out this ask in mid 2022 and then never posted it because ???? forgot it somehow. or maybe i had a reason, bc it was complete. anyway here, this is not quite up to my 2024 standards possibly but w/e:

Okay okay I need to like REALLY luxuriate in this. wow. ehehehe. omg the extent to how exhaustively this follows the star trek incident and also how many subverting switches/equal-and-opposite reversals go into every step. how, blow-by-blow the subversions here are. especially in terms of like....especially the stuff I've kept talking about regarding the way Sehhinah does so much 'subversion' of both like, mythology and common genre tropes: it subversions are best when it really sticks to subverting only by changing a couple things mostly about the connotations/emotional affect/motives involved, or "what actually happened, if you described it while projecting as few connotations and assumptions onto it as possible" and this is like.....wow?? one of the most intensive ones?

but okay okay okay so like..........compare/contrast, Tamar runs away because Eliya doesn't know who she is anymore and their friendship is based on nothing, a holding pattern, vs Spock running away because Kirk knows him TOO well and his love friendship for Kirk is too intense and makes him not-himself. Tamar runs away mainly to run to something (to cleave to a people and to a god and to experience an irrevocable sight that will become an addition to herself) and her getting away from her friends without warning is mostly secondary to that, a sort of perception that what has been awakened in her (her self-understanding, her desire, the things she has come to know and be, even before her actual burning) is an impassable disconnect with her old friends and life that she doesn't know or care about enough to try to salvage without being untruthful to herself. Spock runs away mostly to get away from his life with Kirk, in space, with humans, from the fear and shame that he is becoming polluted and un-Vulcan and too-human from their influence and the feelings and desires this life stirs in him, and he tries to take the Kolinahr not for its own sake but because it's a socially acceptable and very Vulcan/not-human way to prove to himself that he's a Real Vulcan and eradicate the human half in him that makes him ashamed and self-loathing of himself. uh hang on where should i put a cut

And also.....Spock fails the ritual because the elders at Gol sense that he is not genuine in his desire or his reasons, and Tamar succeeds because she is truthful, she begs and states simply "I want to see Your soul, all of it, even though it is brighter than anything at all." But that's not even the crux of things, is it? It doesn't mean the parallels diverge there, because Tamar's changes vis-a-vis Eliya came from her decision and desire and the fact that she perceived that she could not continue to live as she had; and this is in fact also true of Spock! They both return, reluctantly, due to the intervention of an outside factor, to their old place and their old friends, and the barrier continues. They are unfitting and different and the same. For different reasons, Tamar IS different and has grown away and knows things about herself and the world that Eliya hasn't, and the things she has seen and life she has built in the meantime have integrated into her Self sincerely, and she won't pretend otherwise. Spock is not as different, but he wants to be different, he wants to not belong here and wants to belong on Vulcan instead, and he has made a (he thinks) irreversible break anyway, which is helping him lie to himself and everyone else as hard as possible.

The Eliya parallel and divergence from Kirk role too: There's the similarity: Eliya does not understand why Tamar left, like Kirk doesn't understand why Spock left. She is hurt and confused. Kirk is too. She genuinely doesn't care as much about Tamar burning out her eyes as much as she cares (at first) about the fact Tamar broke their childhood promise and did not share this important thing with her and ghosted and left her, and (later) about the evidence that burning out her eyes must have been something so Much and big and truthful about Tamar's Self that Tamar thinks Eliya can't share in her life anymore because Eliya doesn't understand what it's like to feel a trembling Much truthful sureness and self-seeing of desire that extreme and that worth anything. Kirk is hurt and confused that Spock left but also from the start is astonished and alarmed that whatever it was, it was so extreme and intense that Spock tried to purge all his emotions about it, and didn't and still won't even explain properly. Eliya insists and assumes it was her fault, and tries to put words in Tamar's mouth about it, "sorry for whatever I did to drive you away." Kirk fears and suspects the same thing about Spock but tries not to assume so, but the thing is that Kirk is right and Eliya was not, and over the movie it grows. Kirk offered Spock friendship and love and duty and stirred humans desires and emotions in Spock and revealed Spock to himself, revealed truths about himself to himself, in a way that Eliya never once ever could. Eliya could never have been a Kirk to Tamar but she also could never have been a brown-haired-anime-boy-childhood-friend to Tamar's white-haired-anime-boy-childhood-friend who mistakenly throws his lot in with a force too Big for him out of arrogant assumption that his friends aren't enough or that his friends make him soft. because she was not and never had been the site of potent revealing-of-the-self-to-one's-self -- the woman with the burned tongue, Safira, the concept of seeing the face of G-d and living the rest of one's life with such knowledge, batshit interspecies (.....''''species'''') bond winning out over intraspecies ones, was the Kirk thing, and Sarek, not Kirk, is closer to Eliya here.

Other contrasts with mirrors: the Kolinahr is a ritual that purges emotions irrevocably and that is its point, whereas becoming a holy is all about intense emotional passion, but irrevocably causes you to lose something as well, but the loss is the direct opposite of Kolinahr in its effects and motive, given it makes you continually subjected to EXTREME emotions and stimulation and intrusion of g-d etc and the price is of losing a part of yourself (a bodypart/sense organ, your abled-ness, your purity and rest/silence/privacy/(....singlethood)) and the price is just kind of inherent to it, not the purpose of it.

Aesthetics also: desert, judaism vibes, god(star trek humans)-and-its-creation(v'ger)-dynamics. uh. 'star' in title. poor pacing. i'm killing it here etc. oh yeah.

[ivanaskye]

from "What happens when a grain of this gets lost?" to "I wonder if I shouldn't have touched it" (chapter 3 of Lives)

OH GOOD I THINK I ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT ABOUT THIS ONE

“What happens when a grain of this gets lost? Blown by the wind, trapped on the sole of someone’s shoe?”

“You’re assuming it can. There’s ways to keep things together, if that’s how they should be. If that’s what the soul of the one making it is.”

a classic example of kjorel's ProblemsTM, of course.

“And yet I find that I know nothing about their soul. It’s all around me, and yet… it could mean anything. This must be the most meaningful thing in the world to whoever made it, yet even as I sit right next to it—

I definitely made sure to include good/interesting observations alongside shark fins of 'there is something wrong with this man' in the early kjorel chapters. but of course his distance and his reaction to his distance and his not-exhibiting his reaction to his distance...

it could mean obstruction itself. Or stars, the way it glitters. Or a desire for peace—calming this harbor. Or something of the desert. Or perhaps it is the very multitude of the grains that matters most?” “Perhaps its maker just wants you to take it as it is.”

one of lucifer's platitudes that might be useless or might be very useful, depending on who you are. one fun fact about lucifer is that most of the things they do well are specifically the things i most rarely saw done well at the time i was first writing them in the first edition of stars (so, 2016.) but from other angles, they have rare and exciting issues... or all too common issues? they'd probably like that difference-depending-on-angle.

“But how would you define as-is? One could say it’s just a dune, but in order to have been made, it is by definition also a person.” He laughs to himself. “And here I am, thinking how much more I might be able to understand if I touched it—this person I don’t know.” He really does wonder how different each grain would look, up close. “May I?”

obviously, he wants to touch it. obviously, it matters to him that it is a person.

“Why are you asking me? As I said, I didn’t make it. Unless you accuse me of lying, but I can assure you that’s not one of my faults.”

this teasing-poking-at-their-own-flaws (while not doing anything about them) is another lucifer trademark.

No, Kjorel thinks, but many would have given their name by now, and he’s suspicious that asking wouldn’t be welcome either. For all this person’s obvious shapeshifting, some part of them seems oriented strongly to the private. Perhaps merely that they did not give their own name, did not offer any details about themself at all?

kjorel is legitimately observant! he actually is! what he does with his observations, however,

He isn’t sure of their gender, either, but Evian isn’t among the small subset of languages that genders second-person pronouns, so he also needs not know that.

short language asides are fun,

“And what are your faults?” he finds himself asking.

ah, kjorel.

“Here I thought you were about to touch that sand.”

“Evasiveness, I see,” Kjorel notes, but reaches to touch the sand anyway—finding immediately that it feels, indeed, like nothing other than sand. Less smoothy weathered than some, he might say if pressed to find a tactile difference. But looking at it on his finger, sticking to it, the grains are indeed different—and not all shine in the light. This one silvery, this one bronze, but some are darker. Unless that is in fact sand of the more classic type, mixed in with this manifestation…? “And nothing is known about this?”

ah, both of them.

“If you’re asking for a press release, there isn’t one,” the old Theurgist says. “Last I heard, they haven’t even told their lawyers, although that itself…”

yenatru really chose an exciting case to intern on :p but also, of course he would choose this one.

“Might tell me something,” Kjorel finishes. “The kind of purpose that refuses to explain itself.”

“Exactly,” they say almost softly, eyes distant. As if wistful.

And suddenly Kjorel thinks he knows: “You wish you could refuse to explain yourself.”

we see more of this line of analysis of lucifer later, of course.

“So you’re still trying to get at my faults!”

Kjorel would wince, if the tone was just one bit less playful. Well-modulated, that tone: perhaps they’ve had a lot of experience in the matter. While explaining themself, wishing not to.

they sure have had a lot of experience :))) just walking that tightrope forever, or something.

A sharp intake of breath. “Oh, you’re good. Yes, I am… one of them.”

That pause, coming from one who’s offered no name. He knows exactly who he’s talking to, he realizes. But somehow knowing that name, which he will not say without invitation—he is quite sure that’s how the first to fall would prefer it—makes the very fault they’re talking around seem less namable.

there's keeping private, and then there's keeping private while lucifer. and of course the very existence of that difference is their problem. (...or, one of them.)

“Not at all,” Kjorel lies.

I think this might be the only "x lies" tag in the entire series. and it's in kjorel's very first scene.

He rubs the sand between his fingers until it rubs off, falling back into what little ocean remains at this pier. Hopefully it’ll find its way back to where it needs to be, if that matters to the person it is. No, it can’t matter so much—if it did, he wouldn’t be able at all to take a little piece of them. At least he hopes this is true, that the Theurgist is not hurt, that he has not crossed a boundary, sticking his finger inside someone like so—

patented kjorel insanity

he sighs. But he doesn’t want the first Fallen to think it’s anything they did, so he says, “I wonder if I shouldn’t have touched it.”

and patented kjorel downplaying and dodging away and being #smooth instead!

[ivanaskye]

(sorry for being anonymous) but if the dvd meme is still running: the scene in “Were I to do something similar—were I able to—“ up to the line “Um. Who is…this?” (don’t need to do every line in the section of course)

“Were I to do something similar—were I able to—it would be for the purpose of variety itself,” he offers.

“To be more than one thing… or to experience more than one thing?”

“Is there a difference?”

They make another turn, passing a hurried bee. Kjorel’d almost forgotten that bees can handle even a desert. Though it surely helps that people live here, with their habits of planting flowers for their own pleasure.

“Of course there’s a difference,” the first to fall says with a smile that verges on pitying. “But, for now… we’re here.”

another lucifer platitude! 'of course there's a difference' / 'of course there isn't' would be an interesting and revealing conversation, but of course both of these characters are perfectly willing to run away from it when given the opportunity.

They’ve stopped halfway down a street much like any other, buildings closely crowded on both sides of the cobblestone. There is one break, where the exterior side walls of two buildings show, but that break has itself been converted into some sort of shop, tables within visible through the floor-to-ceiling window that makes up the street-facing ‘wall’. Hmm, so it has a ceiling—Kjorel looks, it’s wood in a city of stone, and looks as if covered in boxes. Several more bees fly upward, toward it.

ive designed so many coffee shops for this series... this one is maybe(?) less cool than water's edge and jibrew but I'm still sad it's not real :((

Queen’s Respite, a sign, also wooden, reads. As Kjorel looks at it—are the letters somehow made of plants?—their companion comments, “Don’t get stung. Unless you’re into that sort of thing, of course.”

Ah. It all makes sense now. “I take it this coffee shop uses a lot of honey in its drinks?”

The old Theurgist’s smile changes subtly but surely, until Kjorel can no longer imagine how it was ever pitying at all. “See, this is why I have a good feeling about you.”

not sure this is really one of kjorel's more impressive deductions, but :p

“You just met me.”

Someone leaves the shop Kjorel has not yet entered, hair over face as they pass them, a strange glint behind that hair—Kjorel’s gaze follows them, the hint of that light attracting the shadow-seeking of his center more than most patches of darkness.

COULD SOMEONE HAVE PROBLEMS SOON TO BE REVEALED BY THIS PERSON... COULD IT BE...

“But you do notice things,” the first to fall counters, holding opening the door. “See things.”

they say while actively ignoring noticing/seeing tamar,

Kjorel inclines his head with a smile, passing through the door; wondering about a light that reminds him of the deepest dark, like a sun burnt upon itself.

But only a few steps in, someone waves at his companion.

he wonders--but as soon as there's something else to think about, he stops that train of thought right then and there

A young man, perhaps a bit older than Kjorel, with long, straight hair framing an oval face. Warm brown skin giving way to a pink tone in his lips, perfectly paired with the green of his skirt. Kjorel wonders if it would be overstepping to shift his focus to that green itself; perhaps instead he can rest in colors, especially those with a hint of softness.

overstepping.

But before he quite settles there, the man says, “Good timing, she just left—”

a LOT of people have groaned about this line/decision of yenatru's, but like... as if he wouldn't do that.

and glances toward Kjorel, not quite meeting his eyes but looking at the rest of him. “Um. Who is… this?”

and so begin the totally perfect uwu softbois who can definitely be the softest sweetest most uwuest ever very healthily, definitely.

[ivanaskye]

from "An agreement, if you can call it that" to "This time They're wrong, They have to be." (from chapter 18, 'a million times' if that's not immediately recognizable)

[…]An agreement, if you can call it that.” Yenatru squints, letting himself have the expression knowing that Kjorel can’t see it on his face. “I thought… I thought you liked Tamar.” Is Kjorel secretly disgusted by one of his friends? “Are you bothered by what God did to her?” What she asked God to do to her?

Yenatru is trying very hard. RIP him.

There’s a stretching silence, Kjorel’s hand nearly unresponsive in Yenatru’s. But eventually he says: “Not… really…”

“Do you mean—”

“But anyway that’s different,” Kjorel says quickly. “I mean, there’s already a long tradition of Holies. Everyone knows how it works. It’s… fine.”

Sometimes what a sentence needs is absolutely 0 punctuation.

Yenatru’s pretty sure fine is the last thing Tamar would say about it. Worth it, she’s said more times than he can count, always with variations on that one smile, the one that says that there is something she knows and that thing that she knows is how she has decided to live. Or something like that.

This might be one of the single Tamar lines (or lines-about-Tamar, in this case that required the least editing. It was pretty... obvious? Or something.

“But… I’m not sure it is different,” Yenatru finds himself saying. “What you’ve said, doesn’t that mean that God doesn’t think it’s different? And on this subject, They might be one to know—”

“Well, They’re wrong,” Kjorel says. “This time, They’re wrong. They have to be.”

Truly, Yenatru is trying. He really is.

[ivanaskye]

same anon: if that's too short maybe also from earlier in the chapter, from "A God who is not God who is Teśena" to "a terrible thought comes to him, that he is not the only one" (i'm extremely bad at guessing wordcounts)

A God who is not God who is Teśena who is blazingly bright outside but without casting light which only means there is more light cast in his memory, only proves that even all the materials of the world cannot compete with this thing stronger and brighter than all of it—

He gags into the sink but nothing is coming out of his mouth. The mirror is dirty but not enough to not show how fast his eyes have changed into those of an exhausted and feral thing. He checks the door for a lock but there is none. There’s no way out and he’s snarling into the mirror but he has no voice and there’s no way out.

ugh what do i even SAY about this!! The cadence is very purposeful, I'll tell you that!

But there is a voice laughing in his head and it’s Tamar’s voice and he wants to shove her into the wall and out of his sight—

This was actually put (back) in by one of my betas from an earlier version of the scene.

his muscles are tensed to bursting and his eyes are so wide, a needle, a needle, that pillar is a needle and it’s forcing his eyes somewhere so like that flame—with a loud slap he presses his hand against his eyes, wanting so very much not to see. Not to see.

:)))

He needs a lock, any lock. To be behind a door that can lock. Any way at all to imagine the concept of keeping something out—to center on it—to block, to obstruct. The stalls—the individual stalls—

He rushes into one, though its lock is weak, so weak, he’s sure just a kick on the door would be enough to open it, never mind the gap of space between the bottom of the stall door and the floor—something and anything could get in and certainly there is light behind his eyes and he’s breathing ragged and there’s no voice in him to scream—

There's something very time-honored about extremely intense breakdowns in public bathroom stalls. The instant I considered that as the setpiece for this scene, I knew there was no chance of me changing my mind.

He can’t remain standing, not like this, and he can’t sit on the floor, because then he’d be seen and to be seen is to be imprinted on an eye—so he sits on the toilet, shaking, and if it dirties him at least it is only on the outside. He pulls his knees to his chest, holding now both hands against his eyes, tight, tight. His throat is closing up, he’s sure, yes, he will die like this in suffocation, in allergy to his own thoughts, and that, surely, will be better than the alternative.

But seconds keep passing where he’s not dead.

The slight hint of antiseptic can’t quite cover up other smells and the ceiling lights are bright enough to reach through his hands and his elbows keep hitting the edges of the stalls—and he cannot leave, for he knows what awaits him there. If he had run the other direction—outside of the bar—no, he’d never have made it far enough. The needle would be drawn through his eyelid. He’s trapped, and a terrible thought comes to him, that he is not the only one—

once again all I can really think to say is that the cadence is purposeful. lol. oh actually also: the 'needle drawn through eyelid' thread was actually a fairly late addition! it's really correct for the sceen though.

[ivanaskye]

i have a weird question and i’m not sure how to phrase it in a way that isn’t in itself a spoiler to anyone reading it. so idk. answer this in whatever format you like.

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well anyway. so i recently saw a post on here, about how the earth’s core might secretly have blobs of That planetoid, from the Moon-creating-collision. although even if that’s untrue, there’s the fact(?) that the moon is made mainly out of earth-material, but only Due To Being Impacted By [Planetoid]. evidence of the planetoid’s touch. and there’s a nickname — ‘little moons’.

how do i phrase this. was the ambiguous spoiler at the end of sehhinah intended to mirror the ambiguous spoiler at the end of the size of the world, or is this just some kind of coincidence, or is it not quite either, but an emergent property of your themes and inclinations as an author cropping up twice in different directions.

i think emergent property is closest, yes

[lepertamar]

ok so we all know there's some kinkiness about holy-hood. but what about the non-tamar characters of sehhinah... any kink thoughts about them 👀. or anything you haven't stayed yet about tamar

actually upon pondering, not really, partly because 1) no one else (yet?) is….hot LMAO. 2) because the theurgy of the characters as a personal process is so deeply….the opposite of a dynamic or tension or interaction between two or more forces? there’s SO much kinkiness potential in it: the obvious of someone interfacing with another person’s theurgy, the 2+ people’s theurgies being in metaphorical-but-manifest dynamism or otherwise reacting to one another, or like a single person kind of inflicting their self against their self in a lively tension of solo-manyness. ahhhhh. but yeah the arcs don’t seem to have gone for that bent. the climax of the birds that fly at dusk was…..very hot and romantic (as an interfacing-of-theurgies) but i’m not certain i’d call it kinky? 🤔 a very poor and murky distinction, but eh? gestures….

to give an example of inherent kink potential embedded but not underlying in subtext and certainly not displayed, lucifer’s TYPE of theurgy regarding inherently-reactive-to/revealing-of-others shapeshifting is extremely kinky but i can’t even imagine lucifer the person ever engaging their manifestation in that way with someone, or wanting to, or it being kinky if they were made to, and they also textually don’t. do so. like the offhanded story they mention about both them and another angel meeting and shapeshifting constantly to match/oppose each other’s genders is something that conceptually sounds so kinky but is described as….extremely not that? just not that at all.

i think the sehhinah theurgists who appear on page really exist in sealed streams of a discrete self that interacts with others but doesn’t create a relation that is a presence in its own right different than the sum of its parts if that makes sense. which isn’t actually a criticism lol, it’s just not the focus of these books and that focus appears to be a deliberate choice on the author’s part — one of her other books, the size of the world, is one of the most intensely kinky fictional novellas that i’ve ever read, especially on the meta level (a major spoiler). and some of her short stories are even moreso. she like definitely could have if it was intended?

like ‘the earth is the amalgamation of myriad angel manifestations that have broken containment to wrap around each other and create processes and life and decay and cycling’ is SO HOT, this incredibly kinky polycule of dancing power relations as lightning goes from wind to earth and rock turns to soil and soil to life etc etc is the KINKIEST THING but angels are just…..really not part of the story? they’re not major characters, it’s not the theme.

[lepertamar]

*shaking this book like a dog with a puzzle treat* why do the chapter(s) depicting eliya’s manifestation (wind over the open desert, unstoppably spinning metal wheel) parallel the prologue scene of tamar roaring into the open desert and up erezel plateau on her motorcycle with the wind rushing through her hair in such intensive and attentive detail

[lepertamar]

oh actually that last post makes me think......

the most likely place for the idea of other gods to have be raised, historically, because of a huge amount of policing and moralizing — with the posthoc justifications that just as in the real world always go with such things and always wind up being much more enriching and fertilizing and inspiring to the very thing they’re railing against.......is Nefil.

(—um see the unequalled nature of G-d is such that umm looking at Them is an affront to Their holiness and sacredness, you can tell becuz people with the lust and hubris to touch Them are horribly maimed and branded as punishment,

—um i mean ummm G-d is so powerful and different from humans and beyond us that it is an existential threat to the nature and agency of humanity to look at Them or show people They can be looked at, it’s an act of destructive entitled greed and pride that goes against what humans are meant for,

—ummm i mean it is dangerous and unnatural....to um.....to ummm imply, or to suggest.......that humans can know G-d...can be.....that humans can be like G-d.....’)

[lepertamar]

shriekingf,

there is So Much like............NOT the same, she is not a god i don’t think, no way, becuz she is specifically like g-d the ‘person’?, not g-d the god. i can imagine many holies are nothing like g-d but are besotted with and bound to Them anyway, even specifically AS opposites, but tamar is like G-d, in a particularly resonating way, like if in alterhumanity terms, perhaps g-d as linktype, but not hearttype, not category-kintype, nor category-hearttype, bthis is under a cut becuz this is rushed and undoubtedly at least 80% wrong but but!!!!!!!!!! imitate g-d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! imitate g-d (specific soul). she is, jewish (lolH). she is Of G-D. she is jewish!!!!!! this is (headcanonically) a jewish character!!!!

[lepertamar]

i would guess....the cause of the great distress to celyet.....so i related extremely to this distress because i had/(still somewhat have) a similar distress about misinterpretation, i guess i was thinking about the like process over time of understanding theurgy. like the theurgist usually has to progress from not-understanding-themself to understanding-themself-more to articulating that understanding in the form of a manifestation. and usually these theurgists will know that if someone else encounters the theurgist’s manifestation, the person will have to go through some sort of process to understand it too and sort of accept ‘understanding your manifestation wrongly’ as temporally part of the experience of ‘understanding your manifestation’.

but celyet has a deep distress about the idea of anyone interpreting her manifestation wrongly even as part of the process of understanding it, i think partially because for her, there wasn’t really a process......her self-understanding-as-river is basically just one single combined step. and the book describes it all better yet it all really comes down to........:

..........at the moment of self-understanding (or more like, AS her self-understanding), celyet it seems could have invented the concept of a river if rivers didn’t already exist.

and she thinks she is normal! at least she thinks that her soul is normal. but she is not normal.....she does not think/feel about Self the way most more-normal people think/feel about Self.

the fact she is cut off from even knowing she is different, let alone why she is different, until late in the book is due to a gap in her world’s capacity to hypothesize the idea of her, though the society isn’t suppressing or hiding anything, which ironically (though of course not at all surprising to me!) makes this capacity even more out of reach? taboos (including taboos that claim x does not exist) only spring up if x is a tangible and threatening presence that very much exists! taboos against infidelity would not exist if no one had thought of cheating yet, taboos against disrespecting elders wouldn’t exist it no one ever disrespected elders, etc. (in monotheistic religions, taboos on other gods would not exist if no one had considered that any other gods could exist.) so there’s no taboos here, people haven’t espoused a celyet theory of self to keep secret even if they wanted to. (and would they even want to? honestly maybe not necessarily....except what of the premise of the covenant?)

but that gap probably has also blotted out the framework for articulating many other concepts too.....

[lepertamar]

evidence pile of ‘people in sehhinah have a huge culture of ‘disseminating information freely but phrased in a way so bland, twee, dulled, process-free, or un-weird that it’s functionally misinformation’’:

the juxtaposition where lucifer describes the visceral horror (to them) of of existing as an angel with g-d’s soulfire stabbed through them, and of ripping themself apart to get it out, in one chapter. the next chapter’s header is a cutesy kids’ book quote going ‘did you know? angels who don’t want to be angels can take off their wings!’

eliya describing her layperson understanding of theurgy in the most offensively missing the point manner possible, and holies in a manner equally offensive and even more minimizing

eliya finding the informational books on theurgy she found extremely uninspiring, and another chapter quote from one of these books being very vapid and twee, but in a more adult way than the kids’ book, more like new-age-y self-help schlock

in a slightly more clinical/advanced tone, yenatru’s book by israfil describing the difference between angels and fallen angels in the most process-free way possible, to the extent that it’s misinfo than the kids’ as far as lucifer’s experience / yenatru’s revelation at them explaining their experience to him is concerned

tamar being so jarred by the first holy she actually saw that, despite having a basic knowledge of the mechanics, her memory goes to an old idiom (a children’s-spooky-story-feeling one honestly!) from primary school to describe it

safirah explicitly complaining to tamar about there not being any books about holies that give an accurate impression of what it is

various other chapter header quotes just having a manner of explaining things that’s technically correct but stripped of all wonder (juxtaposed with the characters’ povs in the text of the book, and with a few more esoteric chapter header quotes)

uh i might add to this if more comes to mind...