#simon snowlock

[codenameantarctica]

Donato Giancola’s artwork for the Grim Oak Press Limited Edition of Tad Williams’ “The Dragonbone Chair”

Beware of spoilers!!!

From top (left) to bottom (right):

Simon vs. Igjaruk the Ice Dragon

Simon Snowlock with Thorn

Scullion Simon sneaking into the Hayholt’s throne room with the Dragonbone Chair and the Malachite Statues of the former kings

Simon (from behind), Dr. Morgenes and Prince Josua in Morgenes’ study

Qantaqa, Binabik and Simon at Saint Hoderunds’

Da’ai Chikiza

An’ai with the white arrow, with Simon and Binabik in the background

The Harrowing of Naglimund

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Sources:

Donato Giancola’s Homepage

Donato Giancola on Twitter

Grim Oak Press

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[tometraveling]

[desdasiwrites]

– Tad Williams, The Dragonbone Chair

[kainekron]

God Simon is such a little sad sack I love him and will miss him after this book

[asoiafcanonjonsnow]

Snow Bros: The Parallel Journeys of Simon and Jon Snow

Simon Snowlock Art: Credit || Jon Snow Art: Credit

It’s not a secret that George R.R. Martin was inspired by the fantasy series “Memory, Sorrow & Thorn” when he was writing ASOIAF. Here is what he has said himself on the subject:

"Tad’s fantasy series, The Dragonbone Chair and the rest of his famous four-book trilogy was one of the things that inspired me to write my own seven-book trilogy."

Source

The premise of “Memory, Sorrow & Thorn” is the political turmoil in a country after the King dies while in the far North, supernatural creatures are about to destroy mankind. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

We won’t list here all the similarities between those two series (which are a lot, mind you!) because the focus of this meta are the parallels between Simon Snowlock (MS&T's Main Character) and our Jon Snow.

Both start their series as fourteen year old boys who are unaware of their true royal lineage. Simon’s father was a descendant of Eahlstan Fiskerne King of the Hayholt. Rhaegar Targaryen was the son and heir to King Aerys II Targaryen and through his father, he is the descendant of all the Targaryens that ruled Westeros.

Simon’s father was already dead by the time he was born while his mother lived long enough to name him (his real name is Seoman, by the way!) before she died in her childbirth bed. Similarly, Rhaegar died at the Trident before Lyanna gave birth to Jon. Lyanna lived long enough to ask her brother to protect her son “Promise me, Ned” and perhaps to also to name him? There is a lot speculation within the fandom that Jon was given a different name by his mother. "He was no Aemon Targaryen." (wink, wink) Perhaps a Targaryen one, befitting a son of a Targaryen Prince?

Simon lived his whole life as a kitchen boy in the Hayholt’s castle, like Jon lived his as a bastard of Winterfell. People in Hayholt’s castle called him “Ghost Boy” and interestingly enough, that’s the name Jon choses to give to his beloved Direwolf, 'Ghost'.

At the beginning of the first book, both characters are forced to leave their childhood home and their story is heavily intertwined with the supernatural creatures of the North.

Both boys have powerful, magical dreams. Simon has his prophetic visions and Jon has his wolf dreams, and some prophetic visions (him seeing Benjen dying), the crypt dreams that haunt him.

During Simon’s fight with an ice dragon, he gets a scar to his left eye and also a lock of white hair and he is said to be “marked by the dragon”. Jon already has a similar scar but he doesn’t have a lock of white hair. Could he possibly acquire that post his resurrection as a hint for his true lineage? Simon also gains the nickname “Snowlock” because of his hair and well that sounds too similar to Jon’s surname.

At some point in the series, Simon falls into a coma state being between life and death. A little girl, Leleth, is showing him visions of the past, while princess Maegwin sacrifices herself transferring her energy to him so he can return to his body. For all we know, Jon is dead by end of ADWD but it’s obvious that Martin is far from over with his story. Could he possibly enter a state between life and death where someone (Bloodraven perhaps?) will reveal to him the truth of Robert’s Rebellion aka the secret of his birth? Also, Melisandre believes that she needs to sacrifice “two kings to wake the dragon” what if she does that believing that she will gain a stone dragon hidden within the Wall but instead she wakes the son of the dragon, aka Jon Snow?

It is interesting to mention here that Simon ends up the series as King of the Realm despite the fact that he was never among the candidates who fought for the Dragonbone Chair. He is the unlikely King. Likewise, gaining a throne couldn’t be further from Jon’s current mindset. However Jon, thanks to his Targaryen lineage and King Robb’s will, could end up becoming King of Westeros or King in the North. We are not saying that alternative endgames don’t exist for him, but him ending up as a King isn’t a far fetched theory, either. In case he does end up King, he could either rule alone or be a co-ruler together with his wife. After all, Simon - the character Jon’s was inspired from- was aided in his ruling duties by his wife Queen Miriamele.

[jackoshadows]

GRRM has mentioned both The Black Rose by Thomas Costain and the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn books by Tad Williams as books he took inspiration from.

And it's therefore striking that the Black Rose has a female character called Maryam who escapes a harem and travels disguised as a serving boy while falling in love with the male protagonist who is an illegitmate son of a saxon lord.

While Memory, Sorrow and Thorn's lead female protagonist is called Marya who disguises herself as a boy, fights with a bow and travels with a wolf. She too falls in love with a low born orphan, Simon Snowlock, who has a secret claim to the Dragonbone chair.

[spectrum-color]

New theory: Ice will be reforged and given to Jon when he becomes the King in the North. Renewed will be the blade that was broken and the crownless will again be king. I apologize in advance for the length.

Reasoning: Jon as KitN is almost certainly happening. The show made a mess of that plotline by making everyone collectively decide he should be because he’s awesome and technically Ned Starks offspring (so they think at least,) but in actuality, Robb named him as heir in his will. By legitimizing him, he also put him on top of the line of succession as the oldest male. There is tons and tons of foreshadowing from the very beginning of the series that Jon will be a king (Lord Commander Mormonts raven even calls him king.) I don’t really see him as King of the Seven Kingdoms because I’m not confident that position will even exist at the end of the series, and even if it does his character is strongly tied to the North.

I think he will die, spend some time living in Ghost (GRRM is a big fan of Realm of the Elderlings and Fitz manages to escape death by swapping his consciousness into a wolf,) and be resurrected, likely by Melisandre. “Kill the boy and let the man be born” were Jon’s arc words for aDwD, and I do think that was foreshadowing and he will come back much fiercer, fitting his legacy as the blood of the dragon and the wolf. His first action will probably be to march to Winterfell to retake it from the Boltons. At this point, the Chekhovs gun of Robb’s will is going to come into play. By law, he is king. Of course what will happen when he discovers Ramsays bride “Arya” is a fake and the real one still missing will be very interesting, but that is another topic entirely. At this point Ice comes in.

It’s a common misunderstanding that GRRM is dismissive of Lord of the Rings because of the famous “what was Aragorns tax policy” quote. He actually reveres Tolkien and I think he’s going to borrow the Anduril storyline from him. Aragorn is the descendant of a lost royal family who had been living as a ranger (hmmm.) When the great evil from the distant past returns (hmmmm,) he embarks on a journey to destroy this evil once and for all and uses the shards of his families ancestral sword to recreate it and reclaim his throne (HMMMM.) This sounds a LOT like someone we know. Jon more than any other character borrows a lot from other fantasy protagonists, like Aragorn, the aforementioned Fitzchivalry Farseer, or Simon Snowlock from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (this is a great series that you should read and was also a huge inspiration for aSoIaF.)

As for what happens beyond this, I honestly don’t know for sure. I do think Jon will play a key role in defeating the Others and survive the series but I am not sure what his ultimate fate will be. The big question mark is what happens when his parentage is discovered. How many people will find out? Identity is a major theme in the series; will he become known as Aemon Targaryen (I can’t get over a young Jon playing with Robb saying “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight” because GRRM loves burying meaningful hints like that, not to mention some of the parallels with the historical Aemon, Naerys, and Aegon and Jon, fArya, and Ramsay) or Jon Stark? How will the War for the Dawn be won? How much will Westeros change in its aftermath? The theory I think is most likely is that he and his cousin Arya become the King and Queen of the North (“you will marry a king and rule his castle”) but I am not going to pretend I know for sure because it depends on a lot of factors.

[sansaissteel]

Odd how SANSA looks are just like rand from wheel of time and Simon from dragon bone chair. Grrm said he was influenced by both these book series. And it's very obvious he took allot from both when writing ASOIAF

[bababogwitch]

[codenameantarctica]

Oh the Funko Army.

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Custom Funko Pops.

I am working on Isgrimnur and Camaris and have more plans :D

[esther-dot]

Ugh D stans and Jonerices accusing GRRM of plagiarism to the point of Williams feeling the need to speak up was such a cringe moment for the whole fandom :/ But it was hilarious bc just when they thought they had a "gotcha" w Simon being nicknamed Snowlock, they showed again how they don't know how to read. He gains that name bc parts of his hair turns white after he kills a dragon LMAO All their supposed foreshadowing are already negative, and then they go find sth like that as proof too lol

I’ve seen articles praising Martin for his willingness to name the novels/authors who influenced him because not every author is as vocal about it, so for fans to turn around and act like this is some big scandal is so embarrassing. And, if they googled, people have been pointing out similarities for years. Here’s a list from 2014 (link) and Time published a little article about some of Martin’s acknowledged influences in 2017 (link).

Also, Williams and Martin are fans of each other, Williams even wrote an article about GoT’s place in fantasy (before the finale link), and was just as disgusted as the rest of us were with s8

Then the guy has to turn around to defend his friend, an author he admires, who just watched that happen to his story from angry stans 🤦🏻‍♀️

But Simon Snowlock, dragonslayer…that’s hilarious. 😂

[jonsameta]

I have a Question about Jon's resurrection. Someone in my personal Space, things that Jon will die after the War of the Dawn, he thinks he was brought back by the Lord of Light because he has a Role/a purpose to fulfill. After Beric's and Jon's dialog in Season 7 he is even more sure about that. He thinks Jon's only Purpose is to defeat the second long Night and the Nightsking. After he succeeded he will die. I think he has some good points, what do you guys think?

Hi there!

I can’t speak for everyone because we all have different opinions on a number of things, including this matter. Some may agree with your friend because that’s a pretty popular theory. Others may disagree on some technicalities but still agree that Jon will die because this is a story where “anyone can die” and having died once he’s living on borrowed time. Then there are those, who believe Jon will survive (albeit very damaged, probably uglier), not merely because they want him to but because he has a lot of post-war purpose and his resurrection may have a purpose different from being a prophecised hero. I’m the third kind of person.

My reasons for believing he will survive probably make more sense when thinking of GRRM’s writing style in the books and what he’s attempting to do with this story in terms of genre conventions, rulership and Jon as a character. Despite the show diverging from the books in ways they have to meet at some point, as GRRM has stated and it’s quite likely we might never get the last book. It’s not about what I want, but what the story needs.

@thewesterwoman has written on this matter by drawing comparisons with Aragorn from LOTR and the history of the War of Roses and Henry Tudor as hidden heirs. She and @kitten1618x have elaborated on the War of Roses connection here. A very crucial point Martin keeps bringing up in the series and in interviews is that ruling is hard and has very little to do with whether a person is good or not. He raises the question of “What was Aragorn’s tax policy?” as a way of conveying his series wants to explore that. 

“As I’ve said before, my basic reading of Martin’s work is that ASOIAF is a deconstruction of fantasy tropes that will be ultimately followed by a reconstruction. Martin isn’t writing in order to utterly disprove the foundations of all fantasy stories - he’s a realist, not a nihilist. What he’s doing, instead, is showing his readers ‘how the sausage gets made.’ He has taken the most classic tropes of high fantasy and demonstrated how they would really play out in a world where logic and consequences apply.” - @thewesterwoman

While not obvious on the show recently, bookwise Jon is the best suited character for this beyond just his secret parentage. He gets training of how to deal with daily governance during his time at the Night’s Watch under Joer Mormont and Maester Aemon and Maester Luwin as his mentors, aside from observing Ned’s hearings before he joined the Watch. Jon learns to follow from more constructive people before he can lead. This is something that Dany doesn’t learn because the very mentors she had were pretty toxic.

People might say “Well, there’s Tyrion”, but bookwise, Tyrion is just too Tywin-like in being Lannister name oriented and being vengeful to an unfair scale. While Tyrion is misjudged for his appearance, it’s not to say he’s really a nice person. He has a singer killed and his tongue cut out and served in broth served in Flea Bottom for trying to use the fact that he is with Shae to take part in a singers’ completion. He is wrongfully accused of trying to attack Bran and humiliated in Lysa’s court, but he doesn’t just want revenge from her court, he wants to burn down the whole Vale. He gets especially dark in ADWD. Bookwise, Tywin’s legacy starts falling apart after he dies not because he was the cleverest of them all, but because he ruled through fear and corruption. Meanwhile Ned is dead but because of his legacy of ruling through love people are still willing to risk their lives for Ned’s children. Ruling through Tywin’s methods has short term gain, but Ned’s has longterm gain. Tyrion himself has a pretty bad reputation of being a kinslayer of both Joffrey and Tywin, which is amplified by the fact that he is a dwarf and the smallfolk have no love for him especially after he tried to burn their settlements at the shore to prepare for the Battle of Blackwater. A ruler who is hated will have a very disrupted rule. That’s not the note the story should end on.

Then others could suggest “Well, there’s Sansa and Arya” and yes, they do have something more positive to contribute to the reconstruction of Westeros. But again, they don’t have the training to answer “What was Aragorn’s tax policy?” Sansa has been observing and learning how to play the courtly game, especially under Littlefinger’s tutelage, and she knows how to handle a household now, but again she’s still very sheltered and kept away from truly learning local governance because Littlefinger wants it to be that way so she is dependent on him. The only way she will learn any of this is if/when she escapes and gets to Jon. The fact that Jon is a radical thinker matters too. He might need people to cover for him, try to talk him out of a moment of hotheadedness, and try to sell his ideas to lords who will not buy it easily but this is important. Sansa’s understanding of the conservative approach would be able to shield him, but she needs him just as much.

Arya does have a journey that broadly has similarities with Aegon V, who travelled around Westeros as Dunk’s squire under disguise and learns more about the smallfolk, she doesn’t get the training to rule or even how to deal with courtly politics, where it isn’t about taking people down but coexisting with them and trying to win them over. Aegon V had a lot of problems during his rule despite his exposure to smallfolk because he didn’t know how to convince the lords or reach a good compromise. I’m afraid Arya is in a similar position right now and the only person she can get this kind of training would be through Jon, who received it under the Watch. So while Arya is a radical thinker and someone who could potentially be a force for change, right now she doesn’t have the means and honestly, she isn’t even in the correct emotional state because of the PTSD of war, loss and living on the streets. She needs to recuperate.

So when you step back and think about it, Jon is needed for more than being some prophecised hero during the War for Dawn. Jon’s king foreshadowing in the books is undeniable and while some may think it’s too predictable, I think thinking about GRRM’s style here becomes more important. GRRM constantly nitpicks on the historical realism that fantasy brushes over. How a princess wouldn’t have run away with a stable boy in medieval times, even if she ran away with someone else. How class difference mattered and had a heavy hand on how people behaved and violating it had violent repercussions, whether someone was right or not. So in making Jon king and showing him to be effective ultimately despite his failures would be showing “how the sausage is made”. His secret parentage doesn’t make him worthy of being a king. It’s the training he’s got. It’s what Varys wishes f!Aegon could be like, but neither is he an independent thinker nor does he try to check his privilege like Jon learns soon enough in the Night’s Watch that he did have a privileged (if not perfect) life of a bastard. All the details that casual readers find extraneous and what the show brushes over are important to the author.

Now apart from that a phrase often repeated in the books by Mormont’s raven is “Corn King” and this has a lot of mythological allusions as well as a sign of how Jon is associated with providing food to his subjects in dire circumstances. The Corn King sacrifices himself during winter for a better harvest the next year, and incidentally Jon dies around the beginning of winter and will be resurrected soon. This has been discussed on westeros.org and other places. So in terms of mystical mythology there is that connection with seasons, just as Sansa has her subtle nods to Persephone in her arc.

Then, of course, one would wonder how his death cannot have consequences. I do believe they will, just not in the way people think. Perhaps the most fundamental theories for me is that Jon is not a prophecy child as @trinuviel has written a number of metas on how AA reborn could be a destroyer rather than a saviour, and how Dany still fits the criteria most (1, 2, 3). Tolkien also pulled this kind of prophecy twist in the Hobbit. Also the whole promised hero with a magical sword who is coming back to reclaim the kingdom is so Arthurian legend. I think Martin would think more than this mystical aura of some messiah, that ruler needs to know how to rule. Who would be the hero then? I don’t know Bran, the overlooked crippled boy who has magical powers from trees and the COTF. The Long Night was fought before without dragons or Targaryens and the same is possible again. Bran seems to have a lot in common with Bran the Builder, who built the wall with the COTF’s help and the Lost Hero, who went seeking out the COTF. 

Aragorn did not have the most important role in the fantasy battle even with the secret parentage reveal. That was Frodo’s role. Even Simon Snowlock, the secret prince who doesn’t know his parentage, from Tad William’s Memory, Sorrow, Thorn that Martin was inspired by, didn’t write Simon having a large role in the fantasy battle compared to his parentage giving him legitimacy to become king. I don’t know why GRRM would suddenly decide Jon, who burnt his sword hand, which failed him from saving himself in ADWD will become this all powerful prophecy hero who will sacrifice himself and die. 

Bookwise Beric died when he tried to resurrect Catelyn and she became Lady Stoneheart and when they do come back, they come back different, more damaged and the same would be for Jon, except he might not be a firewight because he warged into Ghost before dying. He will probably come back more wolfish, drained and probably it will mess with his memories a bit. shinynewrevulsions and lady-in-a-song have talked about how towards the end of the story Jon might lose an eye, which might be part of the cost of living among other things, like burning a portion of his face and his hair greying faster, like Jaime and Theon. I’ve discussed before how the show might’ve watered down what Martin wanted to explore with this resurrection, kind of like Buffy’s resurrection that left her apathetic, disconnected and resentful of her friends for bringing her back. The opposite of Gandalf coming back the same or having improved. The fact that GRRM takes issue with Gandalf coming back improved makes me more inclined to think bringing him back so he can be a prophecy hero kind of fits that. It’s trite. 

Showwise, I think a key point is that Jon wants to and expects to die in this war. He doesn’t expect to come out of this alive and every choice he makes is factoring that in. So Jon’s expectations and the audience’s expectations aren’t different. It’s not shocking to expect him to die. Not that it would be shocking for him to live, but again, a lot of it comes down to thinking about if GRRM hated Gandalf and Wonderman’s resurrections so much, why did he do it? The point that everyone focuses on is GRRM saying “Gandalf should’ve stayed dead”, but not the other points. 

And then in the next book, he shows up again, and it was six months between the American publications of those books, which seemed like a million years to me. So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” - GRRM

First of all, the way Gandalf came back, it was as a deus ex machina to make the heroes lives easier, and if Jon came back to be a prophecy hero to make the heroes lives easier he would be functioning as a deus ex machina so blatantly because he died and this is meant to be his sole purpose. His death is anti climactic for this very reason. This is exactly what people think Bran’s purpose is as well as the basis of the Jon/Dany/Tyrion “three dragon heads” sacrificing themselves to save the world theory, which again is overlooking how the author approaches genre conventions and converses with them. There’s not much “conflict in the human heart” here because everyone is just willing to die to fulfil some predestined purpose. If Jon hadn’t already died, this would feel much more poignant.

After the resurrection, show wise Jon keeps wondering why he was brought back? He wants an answer as to what the purpose was because he’d rather just be dead. Throughout the story Jon is ready to die since he joined the Watch; I’d rather try to see him trying to live, even when it’s too hard. Perhaps, this great predetermined purpose does not exist. If he ends up surviving the war, Jon would be lost as to what his purpose is meant to be. He’ll have to find one. It could be that his secret parentage reveal might just be about politics and trying to reconstruct the kingdom after it has fallen to war, famine and nuclear disaster.

Overall, Jon has far more purpose in the story than being an action hero with a sword. People think he’s doomed to die fulfilling this and thus will never become king, but his story just as far more meaning the other way around. His resurrection could serve as another red herring to confuse the audience about who AA is when they should be asking “what” AA reborn is. 

But again, this is my take on things. Others have different takes. 

~ Anya

[sowingtheseeds]

I was tagged by @galadrieljones for this ask meme

Relationship Status: Married

Favorite Color: I really like blues and purples

Top Three Ships:  Phèdre nó Delaunay de Montrève +  Joscelin Verreuil,  Miriamele Erkynalder + Simon Snowlock, FemShep + Thane Krios

Lipstick or ChapStick: Smith's Rosebud Salve

Last Song: Kaleidoscope · Fenech-Soler

Last Movie: The Shape of Water

Top 3 Shows: Ancient Magus Bride, Stargate SG-1, any kind of nature or science show

Top 3 Bands/Artists: Sting, Satin Jackets, Secret Garden (why do they all start with S, that’s kind of odd?)

Current Read: Miranda and Caliban - Jacqueline Carey

I’ll tag @dalishcookie @hotlineaisui @kaleido-vision

[cjjasp]

#BookReview: The Witchwood Crown by @TadWilliams

I am a great fan of Tad William’s work, in all its many incarnations. The Witchwood Crown is his most recent release, a follow up to his masterpiece series, Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. It is a fitting continuation of the original story featuring four great characters, Simon Snowlock, Miriamele, Binabik, and Jiriki.

I became a confirmed fan of epic fantasy in 1988 when I first entered the world of…

[codenameantarctica]

Needed to do something senseless with my brain so I decided to artbreeder the hell out of “Memory, Sorrow and Thorn”. No idea how to create Binabik :D

[diana-thorsday]

Simon and Miriamele -- by Michael Whelan

“Memory, Sorrow and Thorn” Books -- by Tad Williams