#stillapieceofgarbage2006

[alovelyburn]

Was Guts actually in love with Casca? I can’t recall him having any moment thinking of what he feels towards her in the golden age, just like he did so many times with Griffith. Do you think it could have been better if they never were a thing and just being friends by seeing how similar they are?

I watched the 1997 anime and read until the Lost Children arc, and hated everything surrounding Casca’s sa during the eclipse. Because she isn’t actually a character during a long time, her rape isn’t brought up in a way that isn’t because she was Guts’ “woman”. Guts doesn’t make any conciousness about how horrible it was for her, and even though he chose to stay with Gambino and Griffith when they were disabled, he didn’t wanted to when it was her and that’s sad

Oho!

Guts' feelings for Casca are an interesting topic to me - I feel like the mainstream english speaking fandom really heavily romanticizes the relationship whereas the GxG corner doesn't usually put much weight in it at all. As in most things I tend to fall in the middle somewhere.

Anyway I can only really give my opinion/perception of things, so here it is:

My read on Gutsca is and has always been.... that they were both fixated on Griffith but felt they couldn't really get as close to him as they wanted to and their pain and frustration over that led to them finally finding a way to relate to each other, which turned into friendship, which turned into attraction.

The thing is, though, even while that was going on they were still both primarily focused on their feelings for Griffith. In Casca's case this entailed just kind of aggressively ignoring it because she was deeply uncomfortable with the idea that she could have feelings for anyone but Griffith. In Guts' case, you may remember at the time he was actively trying to matchmaker Casca and Griffith into becoming a couple so I imagine he was trying to stay out of their way regardless of his feelings about either of them.

That said....

...I do think the feelings are definitely there. It's evident because when Judeau starts asking about them, Guts gets super awkward and sweat droppy...

And in the defensive way he reacts/the way he tries to deflect when asked why he doesn't try to get with her.

If you watch his reactions as Judeau is going over things, his demeanor on the subject of her changes completely as he starts tor realize that the future he was envisioning for her and Griffith - the one where they get together and live happily ever after - isn't ever going to happen.He kind of goes from being aggressively defensive to quietly reflective.

Plus the way he tries to dodge when asked if he's ever thought about being with her IMO indicates that he has, but probably only in a sort of half-formed way that he never thought that deeply into due to his assumptions about her and Griffith.

And of course in the end, even though he tried to deny it, he did ultimately admit it, and arrived at something more like "I'm not ready for that kind of thing" than "I don't want that kind of thing."

Casca's got her own issues which you didn't ask about so I'm not getting that far into it, rofl, but I will say I think this:

is the precise moment when she realized she can't do anything for Griffith. Because she tries to reach out to him and he doesn't even respond to her, like he doesn't even acknowledge that she’s there. And she pulls back like something burned her fingers before she starts wildly vacillating and then ultimately calls Guts' name.

And of course...

Whatever Guts was feeling about her, it was enough to make him hesitate when she called his name. It wasn’t enough to override his desire to chase Griffith’s friendship and respect, but it was enough to make him pause.

Now all that said, do I think Guts was actually full-chested in love with Casca?

No. I mean for one thing, Miura said they were forever stuck at the stage before falling in love, which implies they aren't actually actively in love - more that they perhaps could have been if the relationship had continued.

But even if you ignore the authorial intent aspect, their one "good" moment as a couple - the meadow scene - doesn't really showcase what I would call full-on in-loveness. Casca has to decide that her feelings are real and only decides to commit to it once Guts turns out to be needier than Griffith where she's concerned. and Guts' decision to ask her to go with him is kind of...

...random and spontaneous? What I mean is, he wasn't proposing to her - there was no “let’s start a new life together because I love you and we’re going to be together 5ever,” not even in his head. In fact, he said he wasn't sure if it would work out or if she'd end up getting in the way. But he was feeling it in the moment and he was willing to give it a shot. It reminds me a bit of Casca's line - I'll believe it, that my feelings for this man are real. It's an active decision on their parts to believe in that connection and its potential to grow and take root even though it's still just beginning at that moment.

And of course, if they were truly madly deeply in love then they wouldn't have started fracturing the second Griffith's shadow returned to their lives. In the end, I do think they were only able to develop the feelings they had for each other because they felt like Griffith was untouchable, and when he wasn't anymore, Casca started backpedaling and complaining to Guts about how jealous she was of Charlotte, and Guts was like, WELL I GUESS I'LL JUST LET HER GO BACK TO GRIFFITH IDEK WHO AM I TO JUDGE IM JUST AS BAD, and ultimately they both independently decided to stay with Griffith without bothering to ask how the other felt about it, or about giving up their plans. Guts wasn’t even upset about changing his mind, really.

...plus obviously when the Eclipse went down, Guts literally just ignored whatever was going on with her and the other Hawks so he could stand on the alter and try to chip Griffith out of the incubation egg. Even when he realized Griffith really did accept that deal...

He could barely make himself pull away.

After the Eclipse, every time he decides to go after her or protect her, it's catalyzed by remembering that he abandoned Griffith and feels like shit about it and/or pondering how his mistakes lost him everyone he loves, which frames it as being as much his regret and guilt as anything else (and Miura did say guilt is one of the primary things she makes him feel).  It also seems to be more about her representing the last of the Hawks than about his romantic feelings about her - to this day he barely thinks about the relationship itself. When he misses her he usually imagines her in her glory as the Band of the Hawks' unit commander. And in the more recent chapters, he infamously hasn't thought about her even once since [a thing] happened.

Err, so long ramble less long:

In the end, more than a romance in full bloom it is presented, I think, as the seed of a relationship that never had a chance to grow. I do think Guts loved her - as a friend, as a person, as a fellow Hawk - and I do think they had "feelings” for each other, but I do not think they were literally at the point of being in love. I also think it never would have come up if they didn't feel so separated from Griffith - it was his absence that created the space where their connection developed, and ultimately neither one's feelings for the other could really stand up in the face of their feelings for Griffith.

All that being the case, I would say the reason he doesn't go on about his feelings about her during the Golden Age (...or at any other point if we're being honest) the way he does about his feelings for Griffith kind of split down two paths.

First, his feelings for Griffith are just more intense and demanding - both the love and, eventually, the complicated stew of love and hate. Miura once said that Griffith is the one who gives Guts the sustenance he needs to live, and that's the way it's always been.

The other thing is, from a Doylist perspective, Miura himself did not appear to have much of a connection to the romance. He based Guts and Griffith's intense bond on his relationship with Koji Mori, his lifelong best friend. In a memorial manga by Mori's wife, she said that they were so close that it seemed that there was no room in their lives for anyone but each other. And he always said Berserk was about Guts and Griffith and their relationship at its core.

By contrast, Guts and Casca's relationship was a late-stage decision intended to up the stakes and increase the drama... and everything that's been done with her since has been consistent with that. Casca became something of a plot enabler - a McGuffin. She survived just as a means to motivate Guts, and lost her mind so that she wouldn’t take up too much room in the narrative, and while the friendship was pretty well-done, the romance itself has very little substance because it (and Casca herself once she becomes relegated to Love Interest) exists to catalyze whatever is going on between Guts and Griffith - to motivate them, to make them anxious and jealous, to make them angry at each other, to give them something to focus on besides each other, to use to hurt each other.

Also Miura did say that if he could, he wouldn’t have women in the series at all. So there you go.

As for whether it would have been better if they stayed friends... that's kind of a tough question because I have no idea what that would have looked like. I want to say I'm not sure how much it would have really changed - he's more motivated by his regrets over the Hawks than he is by the romance anyway, so I guess if she survived as his friend the story could have remained more or less the same. But... while that's theoretically true, I don’t think it would have remained the same. Because I think even though the romance isn't GUTS' primary motivation, it was probably MIURA'S primary reason for keeping her alive. And if she weren't alive then I have no idea what the past 20 volumes would even be about. So while I don't really have any interest in Gutsca, I'd be reluctant to say the romance shouldn't have happened, because there's not much about Berserk I'd change - some things, sure, but not enough for me to feel comfortable saying the past 20 volumes should be something else entirely. I do think Casca herself should have been better handled.

As for Guts leaving Casca, I mean that comes back to the Watsonian approach and the Doylist approach again.

From the Watsonian perspective it does strike me as internally consistent with the way Guts acts and how he would manage those specific situations. Gambino losing a leg or Griffith becoming mute and seriously disabled is kind of a different situation vs Casca losing her mind, because even if Gambino and Griffith weren't the same physically they were still the people he loved. Their bodies changed, but they themselves did not. Casca's entire personality - her memories, their connection - it's all just gone. I don't think he could handle that emotionally, nor did he have any idea what to do with it. When he finally did go back for her he ended up dragging her around on a rope; he was absolutely not equipped to manage her situation at all. I also think it makes sense because despite how he felt about Casca, he’s never prioritized her the way he did Griffith or Gambino. Those two are on a completely different level in his life vs. anyone else, even her.

From the Doylist perspective, though? I mean, Miura didn't even know she existed when he had Guts solo adventuring in the Black Swordsman arc, so I guess he had to retroactively explain why she never came up or appeared. There were a couple of ways he could have handled that - he could have had Guts drop into the cave like, yeah ITS BEEN A FEW WEEKS SINCE I SAW YOU GUYS, HOWS LIFE?

...but I think he decided to have Guts abandon her because it kind of fits into the larger theme of Guts treating the people he cares about the most sort of carelessly/letting them fall through his fingers and losing them as a result. The fact that she's the last thing he has - the only thing he hasn't lost yet - lends narrative weight to his decision to stand with her and advances his personal arc, while making his inability to truly commit to doing that - the way he vacillates and still thinks about ditching to go find Griffith - stand out, because even in the face of all those lessons and his own decisions he still can't quite let it go.

[bthump]

What would happen if Griffith kidnapped both Guts and Casca? I just want them to be all in the sale place, Guts and Casca interacting with the Band of the Hawk, princess Charlotte and the apostles.

Maybe the group trying to survive without Guts in a journey to rescue them. And the best thing is Guts and Casca doesn’t even have to be exploring Falconia together, maybe Casca regaining all her memories by her own and meeting Luca and the girls, learning about Rickert (that he’s alive and left Falconia) Guts left without sword in a peaceful place full of apostles? and eventually feeling more sadness than hatred. Griffith having to deal with feelings.

All of this might only happen in fanfiction, but I’d like to know what you’d like to see in this scenario. (Also, you don’t know how bad I want for Griffith to manhandle Guts in berserk armour, I just think,,, it’d be fun to write)

Idk, I think Guts would have to be in like a dungeon or something, or at least an inescapable prison. If he was able to more or less come and go in Falconia he’d find a sword and start fucking shit up imo. And I don’t think seeing Falconia would change his mind about anything, I don’t think he really values the idea of a peaceful city. Casca seeing Falconia would be interesting since, if you ignore Casca walking that back during the waterfall scene at least lol, she was invested in Griffith’s dream and wanted to see it happen. Though I also think if she wasn’t imprisoned she would just leave, unless she voluntarily stayed for werebaby or something lol, and I personally wouldn’t enjoy that.

Idk, honestly I was very happy that Guts and Casca were separated lol, so I don’t have a lot of thoughts on what they’d be like imprisoned together. Plus I’m into darker more messed up interpersonal dynamics so if anything if they were trapped together I’d want to see Casca breaking down due to trauma, Guts freaking out and making it worse, and if they recovered to the point of lucid interaction then Casca blaming Guts for a good portion of the shit she went through, rational or not, Guts getting defensive... what can I say lol, I like strife.

Definitely would like to see Griffith dealing with feelings. Maybe if he kidnapped Guts with the ‘werebaby needs parents’ excuse but deep down it’s to be around Guts again.

If you’re thinking of writing a fic like this you should! And if you prefer things to be on the lighter side then don’t listen to anything I have to say about it lol, I think you could totally write something less dark here if you wanted.

[bthump]

This is the first time I ask something, but I love your takes on Griffith and every griffguts related analysis soo I was wondering, what would you like to see in berserk’s next chapters? Ever since it was announced the manga was going to continue I felt morbid to see Casca taking lead of the whole plot because of her hatred towards Griffith, but I’m not sure if that’s something I’d really like, nor how it’d go, neither if Casca even will feel such an intense hate for Griffith (sorry if there are grammatical mistakes, English isn’t my first language)

Thank you very much!

My biggest hope and dream is that Casca will use the behelit, sacrifice moonbaby - possibly along with Griffith as a package deal, which presumably wouldn't kill Griff but may inconvenience him - and become an apostle out for revenge.

I think it would be a perfect way to turn the story dark again, incite Guts to lose it himself and be taken over by the armour, give Casca something active to do, and demonstrate her trauma in an epic, story-altering way.

I don't think Casca is going to take over as protagonist though - she'll still be a secondary character no matter what happens, I'm sure. But I do hope that she does something major that drives the plot forward and changes things up, and I can't imagine anything more fitting.

Like if the only payoff to twenty years of regression thanks to demon rape trauma is that she yells at Griffith and cries I will be thoroughly unimpressed lol. I can't imagine a moment we've been building toward for 200 chapters in a story all about revenge and despair coming down to an exchange of words, you know? This is exactly the type of feeling Miura invented behelits to express.

Plus it's a perfect way to give Casca's trauma the significance it deserves without actually having to write a realistically traumatized woman lol, which Miura seemed pretty averse to doing.

And I do definitely think that she will hate Griffith. I don't think forgiveness is on the table, I don't think she'll want to move on and live her life in peace away from him, I don't think "Your wish may not be her wish" refers to Casca wanting to settle down and raise a family and Guts wanting revenge, or Casca wanting to rejoin Griffith, or anything like that.

Like, maybe that's wishful thinking lol because I would hate any of those things, but I genuinely do think that the idea with Skull Knight's warning there is that Guts is the one who wants to be able to move on when he restores Casca's mind but Casca is not going to be his nostalgic comfort object. We already saw hints of that with the way she can't look at him, frustrating Guts ("What the hell am I going to do now?") and I think it's going to come to a head in the next few chapters.

Plus the way Casca was more readily able to blame Griffith during the Eclipse, expresing anger while Guts only expressed sad resignation... I can easily see Casca actually wanting revenge more than Guts ever did. And man there's something nicely poetic about Griffith having originally been the one to show her that she can fight back and kill the men who want to hurt her, and Casca describing herself as his sword back in the day, if now she's the one after revenge. And then you have Guts' musing in the cave in chapter 130 that he doesn't deserve to get revenge on behalf of the Hawks since he abandoned them - compare that to Judeau and Pippin saving Casca, demanding that she survive because she represents the Hawks. I would love to see her take over the revenge aspect of the story.

tbh though I don't really know what Casca might do in detail if she does become an apostle - it couldn't just be Ganishka 2.0. I think that Skull Knight and Danann are planning for this to happen so I guess maybe I see her becoming a weapon for them? Yk they can give her magic power ups or whatever and aim her at Falconia and see what happens. I envision this as negative, like Elfhelm/SK essentially turns out to be an antagonistic force here using Guts and Casca for their own ends. But that's about all the detail I got for this theory.

Thanks for the ask!

[bthump]

I currently have a fanfic in mind in which the one to become a god hand member isn’t Griffith and he gets to have a character arc after the eclipse. (My idea is the fifth member to be Charlotte, but I haven’t developed it very well, it could change)

I honestly believe he had admitted his feelings for Guts even before being thrown to the dungeon, and I wanted to focus on that. Still, I don’t know what to do about how he views himself (his self hatred) or about his dream and the possible guilt for not accomplishing it.

What way do you think his character could go? What kind of dynamic would he and Guts have when both of them already realized their feelings are mutual/reciprocal?

I once had a similar idea actually, where both Guts and Griffith were someone else's sacrifices and survived together (already being in a relationship), and what I imagined was Griffith being the one to go very dark and fucked up, full of rage and guilt and passively suicidal, and Guts being the voice of reason who basically helps keep him alive, and is someone Griffith cares about enough to try to stay alive for (though Guts also occasionally sucks at this and fucks up, because I like dark complicated relationships even if I can't write them lol.)

I'm not sure if you'd want to be that depressing, but yeah it's hard for me to imagine a Griffith who's been sacrificed and lost his dream and isn't borderline suicidal and very fucked up. But I do think Guts would be enough to keep him going, and together they would be capable of like, positive growth and healing and getting over their losses. Eventually.

Also I figured Griffith would have the revenge obsession, because he needs something to focus on and drive the plot forward in lieu of both of them chilling in Godos cave forever, and depending on what was sacrificed (in my version it was all of Midland right after he became king) he might feel that the only way to assuage his guilt now would be to avenge everyone.

Also Griffith would get the armour and a Femto-esque version of the Beast of Darkness in my version because I think that would be fun to explore.

Thanks for asking, good luck with the writing! it's a cool concept!

[bthump]

I am just thinking about AUs and,, I am becoming obsessed with a role swap Canon Divergence. Something about Farnese and Casca being The Martyr (demon) - The Struggler. And Guts and Griffith having an epic romance on the background with Guts as an initial saint, prophet to Griffith and eventually learn to live freely. + Guts and Casca realizing they are better as friends.

This implies many things, but the most important ones is that I want Griffith to have a character development just as good as the one Farnese had and Guts being used just like Casca is in canon for being da man between the homoerotic relationship these ladies develop as a way to restore the order and bring justice.

That sounds like a fun concept! Farnese and Casca getting a whole sacrifice betrayal story would be cool.