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Episode 77 Transcript: American Masculinity as Seen From the Perspective of a Guy Whose Only Vision of American Masculinity is Supernatural and Bruce Springsteen

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello! My name is Grey. C: And my name is Crystal. G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen the show several times... C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian. G: Both Asian! For this episode, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 17: "It's a Terrible Life," written by Sera Gamble, directed by James L. Conway.

C: This was pretty good, actually. Like, I had fun during, like, all of it, basically?

G: Yeah. [laughs] After you watched this episode, you messaged me, like, "Is Supernatural actually good?" [laughs]

C: "Or have I turned stupid now?" [G: For real.] [laughs] was the end of that message.

G: Yeah. And I don't think you have turned stupid. I think this is a good episode.

C: Yeah.

G: It's good. It's fine.

C: I think, like, "On the Head of a Pin" is like, a lot more interesting conceptually [G: Yes.], but like, I feel like, just in terms of like, pure enjoyment, I think this one wins, even though Cas isn't in it, which is like, so weird.

G: Well, I don't think it's weird given that like, the whole point of Zachariah is like, "I'm Cas's boss. I'm taking over now," you know? [C: Mm-hm.] But we do see Cas next episode, I believe, which is "Monster at the End of This Book."

C: Oh, shit! We're already meeting Chuck?

G: I think so. I think so. [C: Huh!] If I'm wrong, well, I'm so sorry. If I'm right, I'm keeping this entire bit.

C: No, I think you're right. 'Cause it's "Monster at the End of the Book," "Jump the Shark," "The Rapture," "When the Levee Breaks," "Lucifer Rising," right?

G: What do you know about this episode? Do you just know everything?

C: Not all of it. So I knew that, like, Dean was gonna be like, a gay Ken doll guy named Dean Smith put in some kind of like, an alternate reality by Zachariah, and that Dean Smith likes Project Runway and eating salads and isn't a hunter, and I know that Sam was gonna be like, an IT guy named Sam Wesson who wears a yellow shirt, and at some point he smashes up a computer, and at some point, blood explodes on his face. [G: Wonderful.] But like, I didn't know the case stuff, or like, fully what the point of Zachariah putting them in that situation was.

G: Yeah. It's very like, like, they do this pretty much the exact same thing, but like, a little bit different in- with Gabriel.

C: "Changing Channels."

G: What's that called? [both] "Changing Channels." Yeah. Cas is in that one.

C: Sam becomes the Impala. Yeah! And he has duct tape over his mouth, and he looks soo cute. Sam's a lot more interesting than Dean is, even though everyone focuses on Dean in this episode.

G: I have a feeling that wherever Dean is in his journey, he would still be this. Like, if you put him in this situation, he'd probably pretty much be the same. He'd be, you know, Ken doll Dean Smith. With Sam, I feel like depending on his journey in life, he could be a completely different person [C: Yeah.] in the world of well, corporate. [laughs] And I don't know. I just find it so interesting that they do this episode here at the time where Sam is the very most likely to act like he does.

C: Yeah.

G: I feel like, you know, Season 2, Season 1- Season 1 Sam specifically would not act like this, you know?

C: Yeah, only Season 4 Sam would be like, "We have to do hunting right now."

G: Yeah. This is like, the only moment in time where this episode would be true to their character. And yeah. I find that interesting. I think we have talked sometimes in other episodes where I go, like, "This episode feels actually like a more future seasons episode." Like, "I get the vibe that they're going for, but they should have went with it like, further down the line" or something. Or like, "Oh, this episode would actually fit better in Season 2 because it fits the themes of Season 2 better," you know, stuff like that. This one is like, a perfect example of "It could only work right here, right now," and I love it for that. [C: Yeah.] For Sam specifically, yeah. And like, I remember watching it- of course I remember this. But I forgot the way like, it made me feel when I first watched it, and now I remember. And it's like, I don't even know how to describe the feeling.

C: How did it make you feel?

G: I don't know. It's like, "Huh. What are they doing to him? [C laughs] Why are they making him act this way?" Like, it's not even like, "Why is Dean doing this?" It's more like, "What are they trying to tell me by making Dean do this?"

C: That they think it's like, funny to eat salads as a man, [laughs] I think.

G: Sera Gamble, what are you trying to tell me? And like, I'm sure that to be like, a writer in a big TV show- Is Supernatural a big TV show? I think it is. [C: Yeah.] Is it a big TV show? It's a network television show, I mean, it is.

C: [laughing] The American troops love it. [both laugh] God.

G: It's very in demand in like, Afghanistan or something. Yeah, it's big.

C: Oh, god it's so- I mean, yeah. Just one of those facts about Supernatural that really makes you sit down and be like, "That makes perfect sense, and I hate it."

G: I don't know. Sera Gamble has written good episodes [C: Yeah.], where like, she said things. [C laughs] And so here, it's like, "What is she telling me? What are you telling me, Sera Gamble?" To get into what Sera Gamble is trying to tell us, let us look into what Sera Gamble does tell us [C: Told us.] in the opening sequence of this episode. [C laughs]

G: We start off like, with an alarm clock going from 5:59 to 6 AM. It's Dean. He's getting up from the bed. He is in this like, very nice apartment.

C: Oh, the music is important.

G: What is the music? Can you tell me?

C: "A Well-Respected Man" by The Kinks. I don't know.

G: What's that mean?

C: I don't know. Just the vibe of the music is very like-

G: Jaunty?

C: Like, old-timey, like... Yeah, I don't know how to describe what the music is like exactly, but like, the vibe of it is just very like, "Look at this pleasant man in the 80s with his white picket fence."

G: He makes like, coffee. Is this the oatmeal? Is this the oatmeal that everyone has- oat milk that everyone has talked about?

C: Huh. I didn't pay attention.

G: He makes this with oat milk or something. Yeah, oh, no, he makes it with rice milk! I just saw. [C: Aww!] The box says rice milk. [C: Hell yeah.] And everyone to hell and back has pointed this out. I mean, a lot of the details with Dean in this episode [C: People are obsessed with.] has been pointed out. Yeah, people are obsessed with Dean this episode. I think for good reasons, it's just- Okay, later. [C laughs] Later. Later. Let's talk about the "It's just" later. [C laughs] But yeah. The outfit Dean is wearing is, he's wearing like, a striped shirt. The shirt is like, blue stripes. Like, dark blue and light blue stripes, and the color and the cuffs are like, starched white. And yeah, it's a crazy look, honestly. [laughing] Like, why are you wearing this, Dean Smith? [C laughs] I understand that you're like, representing a gay Ken doll in corporate America or whatever [C laughs] but like, why are you wearing this? I thought you were a Project Runway enthusiast! [C laughs] But he's also wearing suspenders that are like, blue and red over this, and a viciously red tie. Like, this tie is a warm-tone red. The undertones are orange. So yeah. Crazy. Crazy outfit.

C: Crazy. And his hair is all slicked back.

G: Oh, yeah! You know, it's crazy, 'cause like, I never think of Dean's hair as something that can be styled, and so when he styles it, I'm like, "Oh, you can do that? [C laughs] That's crazy. I thought it's just there. Like, I thought you wake up, and then nothing happens." I mentioned the apartment earlier as like, very nice, but like, you can also see out of the window that this is like, a high rise situation. Like, he's like, up in the building. Which, like, that does mean something, right? [laughs] Like, when you're higher up the building, it means something.

C: Yeah, yeah, the penthouse suite is like, more expensive. If, like, an apartment has like, affordable housing units, they're often on lower floors, etc.

G: Yeah. Yeah. And he enters his car, which is not the Impala. It's a silver-

C: Toyota Prius, which is- I think that's a brand of car that, like, I've heard of the past that people associate it with like, being like, a Bernie voter, or like, maybe just being a Democrat, like, who's not a Bernie voter. It's very like, a- it's a liberal car, is how people often view it.

G: What's a Republican car? What's a Conservative car? Like, a F-

C: The Impala. [both laughing]

G: With its un-PC smoke belching out of it? Yeah.

C: Yes! God! [laughing] Eric Kripke's a crazy, crazy, crazy man.

G: That's an actual thing Eric Kripke said, by the way.

C: I think Priuses are hybrids. I think that's part of why.

G: Even here? Even back here in 2000 whatever?

C: Yeah, even the 2009 is a hybrid.

G: That's fun. So it really is the like- PC, non-smoke-belching car. [C laughs] That's crazy.

C: Yeah, there's not that much smoke, yeah. Yeah. And that's a deliberate choice. And it's interesting! [laughs]

G: Yeah, it's silver. He goes into it, and the radio cuts off the music that's happening in the show with like, loud rock music. He changes the station to the AM radio, and it's NPR.

C: Yeah, which I think the cultural associations of that are also like, it's like, white liberals who have money, I think, that listen to NPR.

G: I mean, I'm not American. I don't know anything about your radio. But NPR is like, prominent in the podcasting blah blah blah. They have a lot of podcasts.

C: Yeah, they do.

G: Yeah, and I've not listened to a single one. But I know they exist. [C laughs] Pat on the back to me.

C: Yeah. Gold star.

G: It's my genuine responsibility as a podcast to know about the podcasting-

C: Yeah, to understand the industry.

G: Yeah, exactly. [laughing]

C: Yeah, to understand our competitors, NPR. [G laughing]

G: Our competitors, NPR, yeah.

C: Their market share shall diminish the more we advertise.

G: [laughing] When we start making $20 a month, it's over for NPR. [both laughing]

So Dean nods and does a little smile at this wonderful morning news. [C: Yeah.] And then he drives off.

C: Wouldn't anything on NPR during this time be about the housing crash? I feel like he wouldn't be having a good time. His portfolio has gone entirely down the drain!

G: [laughing] Is this the first time they've ever mentioned the economy in Supernatural?

C: Yeah, I think so. [laughs]

G: We see him head out of the elevator in the company Sandover Bridge and Iron. Are companies really like this? It's crazy.

C: Like what?

G: I don't know. [laughs] You're a working person. What is working like? I've never worked in an office.

C: You go in and you sit at your cubicle. [G: That's crazy.] And then you have tasks that someone told you to do earlier that week, and then you work on the tasks. And then sometimes you message the person who told you to do it with like, questions or updates.

G: Yeah. Well, Dean's doing a good job of that. He is Dean Smith in this universe. We see it on his door. Director of Sales and Marketing.

C: Another fun thing is that they get to the line in "A Well-Respected Man" that goes "and he likes his fags the best" about cigarettes [G: Yeah.], but [laughs] they do play that on the show. [G: Hell yeah!] And I'm sure Sera Gamble was having a little giggle to herself about it.

G: And so are all the Tumblrians.

C: Yeah, for different reasons but also the same reason. [G: Yeah.] But I guess the important things are he's on the phone a lot. At some point he's talking to someone, and he's like, "When are they gonna make a show like Project Runway again?"

G: Well, when are they gonna do a show like Project Runway again?

C: I've never seen Project Runway. What is it? Fashion, I'm assuming?

G: I also have never seen it.

C: Is it a competition?

G: I think it's like, they like, design clothes on the spot, and they make them on the spot.

C: Nice.

G: Personally, I'm an Asia's Next Top Model person.

C: Oh, okay, yeah, so that's the detail. And then I think the other detail is that he's on the phone with someone, and he's like, excited about doing a juice cleanse, and he says that like, oh, like, he hardly ever hits the gym, he's getting a bit flabby now, blah blah blah blah blah.

G: You know what's crazy?

C: Yeah.

G: Around the time I first watched this episode, that juice cleanse was still popular. Like, it was like, already a couple of years after this episode came out. Have you ever heard of this one? The like, master cleanse?

C: No, I haven't. This is a real thing?

G: Yes. I like, I have done it. [C: Oh.] In a like, [laughs] family pressure kind of way. [C: Aw. I'm sorry.] Yeah. It's like, they put cayenne pepper, and like, lemon, and like, a sweetener. To us, it was like, molasses or something. I think other people use maple syrup. And it's like, you mix it up, and then you drink that throughout the day. I don't think it does anything. And also, like, cayenne, like, on water, basically is like, disgusting. So, horrible. Don't do it.

C: Wait, okay, juice cleanses are supposed to be like, you don't eat anything?

G: Yes.

C: You just drink that?

G: You're supposed to drink that, yeah. [C: Man. Why would- don't do that. Also, especially not when you're like, a young child. Highly unrecommended. [C: Yeah.] But yeah, when he said it, he was like- did he mention the cayenne pepper, like, in the conversation?

C: Yeah, he was like, "Okay, like, I'm gonna take notes on this. This is like, cayenne pepper and lemon juice? And you said maple syrup?" Something like that.

G: Yeah. And I was like, "I know exactly what you're talking about."

C: Yeah. Also, also, at some point, Zachariah comes in and is like, "Good job. You're like, going places." Blah blah blah.

G: That's literally not true. [laughs] That's a lie, he's lying to you.

C: That's true. The point of this episode is that he's lying to Dean. [G: Yeah.] And Sam, but we don't get to see that reveal, which makes me sad.

G: Yeah! What happens- I mean, are we going to acknowledge that next episode?

C: I doubt it. [laughs]

G: It's just- It's frustrating to me that all of the reveal is like, Dean. And I was expecting it to cut back to Sam-

C: Yeah, you also put Sam in this situation! Like, what was your reasoning for that one?

G: No, because I guess the point is that it's not Sam who needed the convincing. It's Dean.

C: Yeah, but it's also like, why did you put Sam here then?

G: I don't know.

C: So he could do some of the convincing?

G: Maybe they put in.

G: I think maybe Dean was put here first, and he was just like, really enjoying the rice milk lattes. [C: Yeah.] And they were like, "Okay, we need to like, have- we need an instigator in this place. [laughs] Let's bring Sam Winchester in." And that's why Sam is also here. [C: Perhaps.] And also, it's an actual case, which is quite fun. That's not the case for, like, "Changing Channels" or whatever. That's not an actual case. [C: Yeah.] This is an actual case, which is- I don't know. It's like, fun, because obviously, they do a lot of like, roleplaying as FBI or whatever or- Do they roleplay as theater people? No, they don't. They roleplay as like, electricians, [laughs] and Sam mentions being a theater kid. Well, close enough! But yeah, it's never like, high positions like this, you know? So it's fun to see it for Dean, that he's like, a fancy fancy little guy.

C: Yeah. He's supposedly good at his job, even though all Zachariah did was- like, what did Zachariah do to Dean's memory exactly? Like, did he give him like, an MBA inside his head and then take it away later?

G: I mean, I think that's also what they did to people who get MBAs. [both laughing] Does he have lunch in this scene?

C: It's not here yet. I think he eats salad later. So I guess we can talk about what the fuck Sera Gamble was trying to say here.

G: No, I think let's talk about the Sam bit first.

C: Yeah, I guess it's important.

G: Is it? No, I mean just to end the scene.

C: It's important because it's like, homophobic.

G: [laughs] I mean, yeah. Well. And so Dean is heading out. He's back in the elevator. We just see him for the longest time, like, the camera is just on him. And then, like, I don't know, it zooms out or pans to the other side of the elevator, and Sam is there. And he is wearing a little yellow shirt, some slacks. [C: Yeah.] He looks super cute. He's just staring at Dean, and Dean is like, looking back like, a bit apprehensively, and Sam just goes, "Do I know you?" [laughing] which is so funny. He literally is the one doing the staring, and he's like, "Do I know you?"

C: Well, he's just explaining why he's doing the staring.

G: Yeah, I suppose so. Dean's like, "I don't think so." And Sam's like, "I'm sorry, man. You just look really familiar." And Dean goes, "Oh, save it for the health club, pal."

C: [laughing] Save it for the health club.

G: What does that mean?

C: I think he's talking about like, circlejerks in gym steam rooms.

G: [laughs] I love it. Okay, now I know what you mean about that section-

C: Yeah, I mean, yeah. A lot of places are like, places that were like, common for gay men to have anonymous sex, and I think that, like, health clubs were like, one of them.

G: Oh, oh! This is like, an actual thing people say?

C: He's referencing a semi-well-known sexual practice, [G: Ahh.] but I don't think that the phrase like, "Save it for the health club" is like, said.

G: But like, Sam would understand that that's what he's saying.

C: Yes.

G: Okay, got it. Because I literally didn't. I don't know what the fuck he was saying here.

C: Oh. Well, now you know!

G: Now I know, yeah.

C: I mean, you could tell later that Dean-

G: I mean, yeah, Dean says, like, "I already told you, I'm not into-" Yeah.

C: Yeah. So, Ms. Sera Gamble, what have we here?

You know, just the first basic layer where there's like, no issues, are just like, "These are the opposite of Dean's interest, so we're just really showing how like, this guy is different from him." The second layer, right, is like, Dean encapsulates like, a form of masculinity that is desirable, and this character of Dean Smith fails to meet those standards and is laughable because of them, I think, is the next thing she's saying.

G: I mean, I need you to know that whatever complexity you're talking about here, I do not understand, [C laughs] because my only vision of like, American masculinity is literally Supernatural and Bruce Springsteen. [both laughing] Like, I'm not even fucking kidding. Like, I'm being so for real right now. Yeah, I have no idea what the typical, like, American masculine corporate whatever is.

C: I mean, the thing is, you know, like, the song choice, like, "a well-respected man about town." In some ways, Dean is like-

G: The well-respected man.

C: - the suburban dream of, like, like, a USAmerican man like, in terms of, you know, he has like, money, and he has an office job, and so on. So like, I guess- I don't know. The vibe is like- it's like, gay to be like that? But yeah, I don't know. She's saying it's gay to have an office job. I feel like some of it is that Supernatural- hunters are like, the working class, saving like, white suburban America, right? [G: Yeah.] And like, by being that, there's like, a certain kind of working class masculinity that they're meant to encapsulate. And they protect working class- or, sorry, middle class America, but like, mostly the women of middle class America. And it's because the men of middle class America are incapable of doing so because they're emasculated by having office jobs and not going to the gym? [laughs] Like, is sort of the vibe of a lot of Supernatural. And this is just like, hammering that home.

G: The only other like, input I have about this is I feel like a lot of people have the preconceived notion that, like, only rich people get to be gay. [C: Yes.] Or at least gay in a way that is like, flamboyant. Like, for men, specifically, only rich men get to be feminine. This is not even feminine. Just like, whatever this is. Whatever they're trying to say here. Only rich men get to be this kind of gay. [C: Yes.] I genuinely think if you think that that like, you need to go out and meet gay people. [laughs] Like, I don't- I don't know what else to tell you. You need to meet gay people.

C: Yeah, I agree.

G: And not in like, a fancy party either. Like, [laughing] go meet people on the street or something. I don't know.

C: Yeah, yeah. I think that that is definitely what's going on there. Right. And then, also, like, the working class masculinity is also like, tied to like, being a metaphorical, like, military guy or cop guy, etc etc, which, like, is very different from like, this office job, director of sales and marketing.

Also I think the fucking juice cleanse thing, I think, really bothered me. Specifically when Dean's like, "Oh, yeah, I like, haven't been to the gym in ages. Carrying a little bloat around myself." Like, we're supposed to like, be like, "That's bad." And I feel like we're supposed to view the juice cleanse as both like, a class indicator, which, like, Sera Gamble, conflates with like, a lack of masculinity indicator. And it's also like, a "How dare you take the easy way out to become thin."

G: I did not think of it like that at all.

C: Huh. I feel like I read it as like, "The real Dean is like, muscular 'cause he works out and like, saves people and is a hero, and like, people who try to become fit through juice cleanses are like, lazy and terrible." "It's a sedentary lifestyle, my man," as Dean says. And like, I mean, juice cleanses are bad, but like, not for that reason. It's- yeah.

G: [laughing] Yeah. They're not bad because they're gay. [both laugh] Oh, god. I guess I read that one more as like- I don't know. 'Cause there is a lot of like, talk about Dean Winchester and his relationship with food, as opposed to Sam and his relationship to food, which, like, later seasons, we can really sink our teeth into. But like, for now, what we see is Dean of the two of them is the one who is more of an avid eater. And like, when there's food in front of him, he wants to eat it. And like, you know, people, many people have done the like, "It's because when he was a kid."

C: Yeah, food insecurity.

G: I think that is a very- Yeah, food insecurity. That is a very reasonable way to read his character. Here, having him be very picky with his food-

C: Yeah, is it about how this Dean didn't grow up with food insecurity, so-

G: Yeah, this Dean is interacting to the food in this way because he has a different set of experiences with food. [C: Yeah.] I do think that could have been interesting if it wasn't presented as a "haha!"

C: "It's gay," yeah.

G: "But it's so gay of him to eat the salad." I mean, it's so odd to me- I think I've said to you before, but like, I don't think Dean even eats chicken in Supernatural. Like, [laughing] I think Supernatural thinks eating chicken is gay. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, yeah. "Well, you know, the hormones they put in those things." God. [laughs]

G: Good lord. I feel like the later stuff with Sam, with the Sam being vegan but they're not allowed to say it. [C laughs] Is that homophobic? I think it's coming from a different but similar place.

C: I think it's coming from the same place basically.

G: Yeah. No, I just think, like, "Oh, maybe like, around that time, there would be a different you know, sentiment towards-"

C: Perception of being vegan? I don't think so. When he comes to, he goes like, "Oh my god, I'm so hungry." So like, he was hungry the whole time as Dean Smith, though, right?

G: Yes.

C: So I think it's also meant to be like, suppressing your true desire [laughs] to be a hunter

thing that they're doing?

G: That's crazy. So like, Dean Smith's true desire is to throw away the gay corporate life and become a true-blooded, red-blooded American hunter? [laughing]

C: Yes. I mean, that's what Zachariah says, isn't it? Like, isn't that the point of the episode? Like, "You could never be happy as not a hunter, because you'd have to be gay." [laughing] Like-

G: [laughing] "You can either be a gay employee or a straight hunter." Like-

C: Zachariah literally says that "you get to fornicate with women" [G laughs] as part of like, his like, pitch for why Dean should be a hunter. [laughing] It literally is like, you can be a gay employee or straight hunter. [G laughing] Like, why would he bring that up if it wasn't like, "And you were so gay when you were Dean Smith."

G: [laughing] "And you were having sex with men when you were Dean Smith. [C laughs] And now you get to have sex with women." Oh, god.

C: Yeah. But like, I guess that also makes what he says to Sam in the elevator interesting. Like, is he- I don't think they're like, "This character is truly gay." They're just like, "He's not straight enough to be able to have sex with women," but like, they still have to be like, "But he's not gay!" Or like, he's repressed? Like, what are they going for?

G: I don't know. Like, when he tells Sam off later, what he says is like, "I already told you I'm not into..." or something. No, yeah. He says, like, "Look, man, I told you, I'm not into the-" and it's like, 'cause if he says, "I'm into," period, I feel like that could be like, "into men." [C: Mm.] And also now that you say the like, health club thing, it's like, maybe it's like, "not into like, casual stuff"?

C: [laughing] That's so funny. [both laughing] "I would only want to be in a loving, monogamous relationship."

G: When he said it, when he said this line specifically- like, minus the health club, because I did not understand the first time, but when he said this, I was like, "What is he saying there?" So I like, paused it and played it again.

C: I think the "the" is just "the homosexual lifestyle" [laughing] would be how he would end that. [G laughs]

G: But I was like, "What is he saying here?" And also, I don't know. [laughing] Also because, just like, Sam's conversation later is like, so odd. "I've been having dreams." Like, okay, Sam.

C: Also, I know we're using like, "gay" and "unmasculine" sort of interchangeably in this, and I feel like primarily, what Sera Gamble's saying is "unmasculine" and like, "gay" as like, a side dish to that, but like, they're all mixed up together, and I think that it's- I don't know. It is the same thing in Sera Gamble's mind in many ways.

G: Yeah, this is like, the fucking difficulty with talking about Supernatural. Because we'll talk about something, and sometimes I feel like "But I understand that there's nuance!" but like, you have to understand that the people writing this, [C laughs] I don't think they understand that there is nuance. So like, we're forced to interface with it from their perspective of having no nuance. Yeah.

C: Yeah, it is- We do usually classify like, "Oh, you're so unmasculine" as homophobia on our spreadsheet [G: Yeah.] when I think it could just as easily be misogyny.

G: I mean, every single thing we do that, I'm like, "That's misogyny, right?"

C: But like, also, homophobia is misogyny also. It's all together.

G: Everything is terrible, yeah.

C: Yeah. So that's that opening.

G: That's Dean. And now we have Sam.

C: We get the splash screen, and it's Sam's turn!

G: [laughing] It's so funny because, like, it's such a weird transition to this splash screen because they play like, a little like, "haha!" funny music after Dean goes out, and then it splashes screen to like, the screaming and the angel wings and whatever.

C: The scariest thing one could be is gay but not.

G: Exactly. Dude, if you're going to be gay, just be gay. [both laugh] If I met Dean Smith in real life, I would say, "Dude, if you're gonna be gay, just be gay." [both laughing]

C: Wait, what's that thing that that girl says in Skam? Like, "It's 2015. No one cares if you're gay anymore. Just come out!" [G laughing] God, what an awful show!

G: [laughing] It's a wonderful show, everybody should watch it! But like, only in 2015. If you're gonna watch it now, don't do it. Like, go back in time to 2015 and watch it then.

C: I mean, it's not bad. It's just also very bad. [G laughing] And also like, terrible, so. [laughs]

It's Sam's turn, he's in this like, crowded office space in a cubicle. Every time it's like, Sam's turn, there's like, a transition shot of like, a printer and then a pencil sharpener going. So Sam's working IT, so, you know. He also has this vampire bobblehead that he keeps tapping with his pencil. He calls himself Sam Wesson, and this is supposed to be a reference to Smith and Wesson.

G: The guns.

C: The gun manufacturing company. Yeah. Crazy.

G: I mean, Winchester is also a gun.

C: Right. Right. Basically, on all his calls that we will see in the future, he just goes like, "Did you try turning it off and then on again?" and that always works, and he's clearly very annoyed with his job. Sam Winchesters will want a normal life and then despise a normal life. [G: Yeah.] There's like, another guy around named Ian, and he's not wearing the uniform. I guess he's like, Sam's friend, and sort of like, meant to be like, a sleazeball character or whatever.

G: He's supposed to be Sam's Dean, I feel like, right now.

C: Hmm. Yeah.

G: The- I was gonna say "the something to Sam's straight man," but like, you know what I mean. [laughs] The gay man to Sam's straight man. [C laughs] But you know what I mean. Like, he's supposed to be like, "Haha!"

C: Yeah, "Haha, he steals office supplies and wants to fuck people, and Sam has to go, 'Nuh-uh!'"

G: And Sam is the annoying killjoy [C laughing] that everyone is mad at because he's so gloomy. [laughing] I love Sam; please don't persecute me!

C: [laughing] I still can't believe that like, two episodes ago, you were like, "I hate how angsty Sam was in Season 1." What? Like, his girlfriend died. [G laughs]

They have a conversation where, like, Ian's like, "What do you think of Mimi? Like, I kinda wanna hit that." And Sam says, "That's totally age-appropriate." And both of us had the same reaction where we're like, [G: "Noo..."] "Oh, fuck! Is she like, a high school intern? What's this?" But then the guy makes it clear that Mimi is, in fact, like, a senior citizen, and that that is Sam's issue.

G: He goes, "There's a MILF there. [C: "There's a MILF there, Sam." I just know it. Maybe even a GMILF." [laughing] He's just like me for real. [C laughing]

C: Were people saying GMILF like, to separate them from like, GPILFs? Like, I've only heard GILF. Good to have this insight into 2009.

G: Sam is always involved with a MILF somewhere. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, somewhere, somehow, there's a place for them.

G: Yeah. Unfortunately, he's MILFtose intolerant, so RIP.

C: [laughs] RIP. So they get up for a coffee break, and they pass by Paul. Ian invites Paul along, but Paul is very focused on his laptop, just typing, typing, says like, "There's absolutely no time for this. I'm working." Ian explains that Paul might be afraid because he got busted for looking at porn on the Internet and got sent to HR about it. So we find out later that Sam has only been here for three weeks.

G: Why are they so close?

C: Do you make friends this fast? Yeah, I mean, I know that I'm like, a weirdo, and like, literally the only one in my job position who eats lunch alone, [G laughs] but like, [laughs] like, do people make friends this fast? Does this happen?

G: Me?

C: Yeah, or just people.

G: Yeah, I do.

C: Oh, congrats! [G laughs] I do not. I just like- they've gotta be buddies for like, months.

G: The thing about me is I do not make friends slow, but I do have like, a quicker turnover. Especially when like, it's work friends. I mean, obviously, with like, friends friends, that's not the case. But like, if we're buddies at like, this kind of setting, it's like, okay, we'll spend one day getting to know each other, and then, like, after three days, I'm like, tired, and I don't want to talk to you. [laughing] So mean!

C: Damb.

G: But yeah. Your complaint is like, "How is he here only three weeks, and he already has a buddy?" And I'm like-

C: "How is he not already sick of this guy?"

G: - "How is he here three weeks, and he still has a buddy? [both laugh] Like, why is it still this guy?"

C: For realsies. I don't know. We've talked about Sam's capacity to make friends in the past, and like, it does seem important to me that, like, he's here and he's like, friends with Ian. They seem to have a rapport with Paul as well. And like, Dean's like, alone in his office. Like, he does have that one guy that he talks to in the montage about Project Runway, I guess, but like, they don't give him like, a friend character.

G: A buddy, yeah.

C: Yeah, but they give Sam a friend character here and in "After School Special." [G: Yeah.] Interesting stuff. I'm sad that Sam's ability- like, Sam, like, is good at making friends, but he's just never [G: In a situation.]- Now, he's never in a scenario where he can make friends the way he's good at making friends. Because Dean views like, his friends as his responsibility. [G: Yeah.] Like, hunting situations where it's life or death, it's probably easier for him to form a connection. But like, Sam just wants casual chitchat that becomes sharing feelings later.

G: Yeah. I keep on saying "buddy" because like, that's that's the vibe. And like, I feel for Sam, like, a lot of his friends are like, his buddies. Like, to like, hang out with in this way.

C: Yeah. His friends come from stability, like, just seeing the same people every day.

G: Yes! That's one. Yeah. I don't know. I think about the fact that, like, with Henriksen, for example, like, Dean and Henriksen were able to connect because it was like, a-

C: They were fighting for their lives.

G: Yeah, it was a fierce and like, intense moment. But every time Sam is like, in an intense moment with someone, I don't think it ever turns into like, a personal connection. It's always like a "I'm trying to do my job. I'm trying to get in here and then out of here."

C: Yeah. He and Eileen only became friends in like, quiet moments. During the actual banshee hunting like, there's not much going on there.

G: Yeah. And also, he wasn't saving Eileen. That's an equal.

C: I'd say Dean and Henriksen were fighting side by side, though.

G: Yes, I suppose that's true. I think I was also like, lumping in Dean's other stuff where he like, in Episode 3, that lady and him, whatever whatever.

C: Do you mean Andrea? Or do you mean in Episode 2 with him and Haley?

G: No, the "Dead in the Water" kid mom. [laughs] The "Dead in the Water" one.

C: Andrea.

G: Yeah, Andrea. The Andrea of Andreaverse.

C: Mm-hm. [laughs]

C: Yeah. And in those cases, like, Dean also has like, a more chummy relationship with the people that they're saving 'cause he is able to have fun in the job. Like, it sounds so stupid, but like, he's able to be like, goofy in the job, while Sam [C: Right, Sam isn't.] is a lot more like, "Let's get in here, and then let's get out of here."

C: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, Sam's still trying to maintain some kind of work-life separation, I guess. [laughs]

G: Isn't it so interesting that, like, I don't know, they put them in here- I mean, I'm sure later, we'll talk about the like, capitalist implications of like, "They put them in a corporate setting, and then suddenly, their entire life is in the office." But the thing is like, they keep on telling Dean like, "You're made for this. You're made for this."

C: You could just be a mechanic, bro.

G: But, like, they give him nothing else outside of this office, you know? Like, outside of his pristine apartment, his pristine car, and his pristine office, he has no life. He has no buddies. He hasn't talked to his family. He has no one, and he has like, no hobbies. You know, there's nothing. And with Sam, it's the same thing, too. And obviously, what Zachariah is doing is unfair, but like, it's extra unfair with the fact that he's saying like, "You do not like this life because you do not like this job" when, like, the life and the job is not like, the same thing. [C: Yeah.] The job is not the life, but like, he insists that it is, "And because you don't like to sit on your ass and take phone calls, then it's over for you."

C: Yeah, like, "There's no other option for you in this world."

G: [laughs] Yeah.

C: Like, there is, in fact.

G: Yeah! Exactly.

C: It's a strange thing, but I don't know. I guess it speaks to what Sera Gamble thinks that the two ways of being alive are. [G laughing]

G: The two ways of being alive is, as we've said, gay employee or straight hunter. [C laughs]

C: You know, Ian steals some office supplies, and Sam's like, "No! Don't do that." Like, come on, Sam.

G: There's also like, you can see at the back of Sam, there's like, a microwave, and on top of it, there's a note that says, "Do not heat your fish here. It stinks. Thank you." And like, I thought this was just like, a passing like, detail, and I was like, "Oh, that's super fun that they have that on top of their microwave. Like, it brings a little life to this place." And then later, it does become kind of relevant because they use it in [C: Yeah, irony.] the gore scene.

C: So Ian asks if Sam had any of those dreams lately. Which okay, we learn later that Dean has a sister. I feel like Sam Wesson is an only child.

G: Of course, yeah.

C: Yeah, like, he really has no one else to tell this to besides his [G laughs] three-week long friend, who is mostly annoying. Ian's being mocking. He's saying that hearing about the dreams is the highlight of his day. "Don't hold out on me." And Sam's like, "Ugh, I never should have told you in the first place. You're just gonna be a dick about it." And the thing is, the dream that he says is not even weird. Like, if someone told me they had that dream- I mean, if someone in my world told me they had that dream, I'd be like, "Watching a little too much Supernatural, are we?" [G laughs] But like, if there was no Supernatural, I'd just be like, "Yeah, okay."

G: Nice one, dude. Yeah. [C: Yeah.] Are you thinking of making that into a book? [laughing] If not, I think you should just forget about it completely. But go on. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, but apparently, Ian thinks that this is like, absolutely hilarious that Sam dreamt that he saved a grim reaper named Tessa from demons. Ian's just laughing his ass off at this pretty normal dream and is going like, "How much DnD did you play when you were a kid?" Ugh. If we were people who knew things more, we could have the discussion about like, what Sam plays as in DnD, but I only play non-DnD TTRPGs, and you think that playing DnD [G laughs] is a very funny, laughable, perhaps even piteous thing to do, [G laughing] as immortalized in the title for our "Red Sky at Morning" episode.

G: Well.

C: So, I mean, just going off of my like, zero knowledge, I think that paladin seems like the most obvious choice, but I think it's just because I don't know other classes well enough. But yeah.

G: I mean, the only thing I know about DnD is I think Danica told me like, "It's a pity you don't play DnD 'cause you like to do the voices." [G laughs] [C: That's true.] So now I know that you do voices in that thing. [laughing] Except you don't, 'cause you're a loser, even within the loser circle. [both laughing]

C: Yeah, that part is true. [G laughing] I have no arguments against that.

G: You have no protestations. Yeah.

C: Okay, Sam starts having like, a bunch of flashbacks of things that happened in Supernatural of him fighting and things. And then it ends with Dean killing a vampire.

G: So we're back at the elevator, and this time, there's like, a couple other people with Sam and Dean. And then when the people head out, Sam and Dean are left, and I feel like Sam is like, trying to not look at Dean, and Dean is like, "Please don't look at me," [C laughs] like, that's the vibe of the scene. And then finally, Sam is just like, "Um. Hi. Can I ask you a question?" And then, Dean's like, as I've said earlier, like, "Look, man. I told you I'm not into the-" blah blah blah. And Sam's like, "Oh, dude! Come on, I'm not either." [laughing] He's so funny.

C: That's a lie. He's lying to us. [G laughs]

G: And he just goes, "I just wanna ask you one question. What do you think about ghosts?" Dean is just like, "I don't know what you're on about, but I've not given it much thought." And Sam starts asking about vampires. And then he's like, "I've been having some weird dreams lately. [C laughs] You know what I mean?" And Dean's like, "No." [laughs] And Sam's like, "So you've never had any... weird dreams?" And then Dean's like, "Fuck off!" and then he leaves. [laughs] He goes like, "You know, you're an oversharer," and then he leaves.

C: Yeah. I do think it's unfortunate that they're throwing bones to the Wincesties this episode. Ugh. They do the same thing in "The French Mistake," is the thing. If this was just a one-off, I'd be like, "Fine." But it seems like every time you put them in a new scenario, they're like, "But what if it was gay? But it wasn't. But what if it was? But it wasn't. What if it was incest? But it wasn't." You know? [laughs]

G: Yeah. It is still so wild to me that in fucking "Fan Fiction," Episode 10- Season 10. I don't know. I forgot. Oh, 10.05. Like, they do a bit where they talk about incest, and then they do a bit where they talk about Destiel, and Jensen Ackles does the camera- the breaking the fourth wall camera look at the "Destiel." [C laughs] And like, we just talked about incest! [both laughing] Like, what's going on in this thing? Like, if this is homophobia, the incest is also gay. [both laughing] Like, what's happening?

C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being gay is only okay if you're related, guys. [G laughing] That's what Jensen Ackles. He said this to me in my dreams.

G: [laughing] Supernatural is such an odd, odd show. But yeah.

C: I think for some reason, they're like, "The Wincest fans are like, the real fans. They've been with us since the beginning, so we don't wanna alienate them. But like, the Destiel fans are casuals, so we don't care if we alienate them." That's like, sort of how it feels a lot of the time.

G: Yeah, I suppose. When I watch Supernatural, like, I do tend to just go, "And that's just not something I'm going to think about [C: Yeah.] throughout this journey of watching Supernatural." [C: Yeah.] Which, now that you've pointed it out, I'm like, I remembered. [C laughs] Like, people will listen to this and be like, "Haha!"

C: "And they're not technically related in this one!"

G: I do think it's massively unfortunate, because- like, I'll talk about it in a scene later, but like, I did start crying in this episode [C: Oh!] because I was like, [emotional] "And they're literally brothers, and they're like, literally siblings!" and blah blah blah. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] And like, I don't know. Like, sometimes I forget that Sam and Dean are like- they're family. [C: Mm.] And like, that actually does mean something. Like, that's not just a word that- Because Supernatural does throw the word "family"-

C: #SPNFamily!

G: Yeah, like, they throw it around so much that a lot of times, it loses its meaning. And this is like, the first time in a long time that I am able to look at Sam and Dean and go, "They are siblings, and that means something to them and to me." And so now that I'm like, "Oh, yeah. And people think this is an incest thing," [C laughs] I am like, "Agh! Come on!" Because it's such a good like, episode in terms of like, their family relationship, and I just think it's unfortunate that, you know, people look at that and then turn it into that.

C: Yeah. And that Sera Gamble looks at that and is like, "I wanna give those people something."

G: "Let's cater to it, baby!"

C: Ugh. I wish this was more of a Sam episode. He's so main character-coded here! We haven't had him having like, prophetic dreams in so long [G: I know!], and now, like, it's back, baby! He's having visions. He's asking off-putting questions in the elevator. Like, he's so YA protag.

G: [laughs] Exactly. But he's not gay enough. The thing is like, with Dean, they can do this like, "Ah-ha, we're emasculating him, he's doing gay shit. It's funny, isn't it?" But I think the moment they do it with Sam, they're like, "Okay, that's not actually funny." Like, I think they realize that it's not funny when they do it to Sam. [C: Huh.] Because Sam is like, fine with that shit. [C: Right.] Imagine this episode, but it's a- They switch roles. Sam is the corporate guy, drinking rice milk coffee, and talking about Project Runway and diet cleanse.

C: Yeah, I'd just be like, "Good for him."

G: And it's like, "Damn. He's living his life. [laughs] Like, okay!"

C: "This is what he wants. Good."

G: Yeah. [laughs] Like, they realize that like, "Actually, that's a completely fine way to be a man. Okay." And so like, they need to do it to Dean.

C: Yeah. They had Dean go to Stanford. [G laughs] The lesson of this episode is that going to Stanford makes you gay. And like, it does. [G laughs]

G: They literally said, "And Dean Winchester, you will live your life as if you were Sam, and that automatically makes you gay." [both laughing] Like, okay. So what does this say about Sam Winchester? Have we thought about that?

C: Well, apparently, he's "not either." So.

G: So Sam is back in his cubicle. He is still doing the customer service thing. But now, he DGAF about it. He really is just on the phone saying his usual script while he's drawing vampires. [C: Yeah.] And also, I mean, first of all, the drawings? Beautiful.

C: Yeah, no, wait. So why is Sam Wesson so good at drawing when we have seen Sam's fucking sketch artist attempt in "Bedtime Stories"?

G: No, but the thing is, we've seen Sam draw a tree, and that was a nice tree. Pretty decent. [C: That's true.] So like, [C: He can only draw things from his dreams really well.] is Sam only capable of drawing nice things from his dreams? But if it's a man in front of him going, "And he has a Wile E. Coyote tattoo," [C laughs] he's like, "I'm lost. I don't know what that is. I don't know what an arm is, even."

C: Yeah. He's so Tenth Doctor during "Family of Blood"-coded.

G: While he is doing this, he goes up to his computer, goes to the website- [laughs] wait, I'm going to actually go to that scene so I can see what the fuck that website is. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, this is a Twilight reference, right?

G: Yeah. He is in Search the Web, and he is searching the web for "vampire."

C: He capitalizes vampire [G laughing] in his search, which is so important to me.

G: Sam is typing vampire, capital V, in Search the Web [C laughs], and like, a bunch of results come out. And it's literally just like, "all about vampires," "history of vampires," "what's a vampire?" [both laughing] Like, he saw them in his head, you know? Like, he knows the specific type of vampire that he needs to look for. He knows that shit doesn't look like Dracula. [C: Yeah.] So like, just look up. And also, honestly, if I was Sam Winchester, and I had no prior knowledge to supernatural creatures and what they look like in the Supernatural universe whatsoever, and I see, like, just some guy with fangs, I'll be like, "I don't know what that is. Probably not a vampire, though." [both laugh]

C: That's true. Because those guys don't look like Draculas, so like.

G: They don't go "blah-blah blah-blah" or whatever that fucking Hotel Transylvania vampire says. [C laughs] I've watched that movie so many times.

C: He said, "Jonathan, you are fucking my daughter." [G laughs]

G: Yeah. You better be. [laughing] Is that the one?

C: It has "yeas" in it, right?

G: No, I think that's the girl one, the one that's like, "Are you lesbian?" "You better be!"

C: Yeah, "You better be!" is part of the girl one. It has "yeas" in it.

G: [laughs] We will just say anything in this podcast. [C laughs]

There's literally one that's like, "Forum: are goths vampires?" which is so funny to me. [C laughs] 'Cause they literally did like, gothify the vampires in like, the first episode where they have vampires in this show.

C: True.

G: Sam just keeps on looking around, looking around. He hears like, a little distressed noise coming from Paul's cubicle. He stands up and like, looks over and like, is like, "Hey, what happened to you?" And Paul's like, "My screen is just frozen. My entire day's work is just completely gone." And Sam's like, trying to be like, "Well, did you back it up?" And like, I know that this is supposed to be like, "And Paul is being so short with Sam right now. Like, he's really pissed, and he's being like, very annoyed at Sam questioning him like this when it's a completely reasonable question." But honestly, if somebody asked me that, I was like, "Fuck you!" Like, "You think you know better than me? [C laughs] Is it your data that was lost, you fucking asshole?"

C: "You'd think if I had backed it up, I wouldn't be screaming and crying right now. Obviously."

G: Yeah. Like, "Fuck you, dude!"

C: Also, earlier, Ian got an email to be called up to HR.

G: Oh, yeah. Paul stays behind in the office, and he is just entering like, a code into the computer again and again and again. But yeah, there are no files found. And he just goes, "All that work gone. Failed." And there's like, something that possesses him. Not literally, but like, you know, cold air, blah blah blah! And then he gets up, walks out, and there you have it. He sticks his head into the microwave.

C: The kills this episode are pretty fun.

G: It's pretty good!

C: They're, I'd say, a bit grislier than like, at least the most recent Supernatural episodes so far. But like, they're all like, quite creative. I enjoy them. We get to see the electricity zapping along his forehead a bit, and there's like, little spots of blood that form before. And then we like, fully see, Ian's bleeding out.

G: Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

G: You know what's funny is like, I have that fear of like, the elevator cutting me in half.

C: Oh, the elevator scene. Yes, that was fun. Uh-huh.

G: And I don't know where I got it from. [C: Maybe here?] And now I know. No, have I told you that I also have the fear of like, being beheaded by the fucking trunk of the car?

C: Yeah, the trunk of the car, because of Supernatural. Uh-huh.

G: [laughs] I will have deep-rooted fears in life, and I'll be like, "I think I just got that from nowhere," and then I watch an episode of Supernatural, and I'm like, "Nope, I got it from Supernatural."

C: That you did. We cut to the next day, and, you know, people are taking Paul's body out, and Sam and Dean are both watching this happen, and they look at each other briefly. And Dean's like, "Something about this doesn't seem right" to like, a fellow coworker. So he goes back to his office, and he starts looking at the file for Paul. I guess Easter egg is that it says his manager is Mary Ann Liu. Hi, Mary Ann Liu!

G: Hi, Mary Ann Liu! Yeah!

C: Is Mary Ann Liu also one of Sam's phone contacts?

G: Yeah, I think, like, back in the day.

C: Uh-huh. I'd like to believe they're the same people. It says that Paul has a retirement party scheduled for two weeks out, and Dean's like, "Huh." Meanwhile, at the IT place, Sam is talking to Ian about the same thing. He goes, "Why would someone kill themselves two weeks before they were supposed to retire? Like, he was two weeks from freedom. He should have been happy, right?" Which, like, honestly, retiring is a big life thing. It's possible that-

G: You just get stressed out, yeah. You don't have enough savings.

C: Yeah, "I don't have anything to do, I don't have the savings that I need, I don't know what my purpose in life will be, because, like, it's been worn away by this IT job for so many years." Like, I get it.

G: Yeah. And like, I think this one really reiterates what I was saying earlier that like, Sam's like, when you're working, your only life is your job. And then like, [laughs] because that's like, you know, the point of the episode. And here, Sam is like, "But he should be done being miserable, 'cause he's getting out of the miserable job."

C: Yeah, "And he has freedom now."

G: Well, can we infer something about Sam's- like, Sam Sam's psychology from that one? [C: Yeah.] That he- I mean, for a long time, he did think of hunting as like, "And after this is over, I can go back to my normal life."

C: And that's sort of stopped being a possibility.

G: Yeah, but it is what he does kinda, in Supernatural.

C: In Season 8?

G: [laughing] In Season 15.

C: His son has a fucking anti-possession tattoo on. Aren't we supposed to think that they're both still hunting on the side?

G: That he's a hunter? I don't think so.

C: Oh, that's good.

G: I think he just got divorced with his wife. [both laugh] I mean, everybody has pointed to hell and back that [C: She's not there.] his wife is in none of the family pictures. To him, he's like, "Oh, I can protect my family like, this entire time. It's fine." [laughing] And then they get divorced, and the wife gets the kid in the divorce, and he's like, "Oh, shit! Now I have to give him a fucking tattoo because I won't be in the house protecting them." [C laughs] Well, unfortunate.

C: Yeah. What did Sam say the last time they had a conversation about retiring? 'Cause they have had one like, not that far away.

G: I think, Sam said, like, "That's just not an option for me anymore" or something. [C: Does he?] "That's past me."

C: Right. The important thing about Ian now is that he's actually wearing the uniform now, and in the past, he never did. And he won't engage with Sam in this conversation. He says he doesn't have time for this, he's working, it's important. Ian just ignores him and then gets called up to floor 22 to speak to a manager, and this manager is Dean Smith. You know, Dean just tells Ian, "Hey, like, yesterday you filled out this form, but there are a few errors, so I'm just going to walk you through this," and Ian starts freaking out. He's like, "Oh no, oh no, oh my god! Like, I can't believe I did this! I can't believe I did this!" And Dean's like, "Hey, it's fine. I can just like, help you refile this." And Ian's like, "No! It affected profits! [G laughs] I failed Sandover! I failed the company! How could I do this?" Incredibly funny! Sorry that he is going to kill himself about this.

G: The thing is like, I didn't remember who the ghost was this episode, and I saw this scene, and I was like, "Damn, who's fucking haunting these people? [C laughs] Like, the ghost of corporate past?" And [laughing] then like, literally. The ghost of corporate past is hunting these fucking people.

C: Ian runs out of the room and Dean follows him to the bathroom. Ian's still freaking out, and then there's like, a brief moment of cold air, and then all the faucets and all the soap dispensers come on.

G: This is a really fun visual.

C: The soap is like, a dark pink, so it like, sorta looks like blood, and it's like, pooling and spilling onto the ground. [G: Yeah.] It's very neat.

G: 'Cause the thing is like, it's pink. [C: It's Danganronpa blood.] So it's like, when it starts falling, you barely even register that that's the visual it was doing. And then it starts pooling, and it's like, "Oh, that's good. That's good! That's good." Mary Ann Liu [said as lee-yoo] slayed with this one, unless it's not Mary Ann Liu, [C laughs] and also, her name isn't Mary Ann Liu. Am I saying that right? Is it Mary Ann Liu?

C: Uh, Mary Ann Liu. [said lee-YO]

G: Liu. [C: Liu.] Slay. Slay.

C: Though, I mean, okay, all of the faucets and all the soap dispensers come on. I think it would be more fun if it was just like, one by one, as like, the ghost passes and triggers the motion sensors. But like, that's not what's happening. The ghost is just turning them all on for fun. Ian pulls a pencil out of his pocket and then stabs himself in the neck, and blood spurts out, and he falls to the ground, and he's bleeding so much, and Dean sees the ghost in the mirror, but there's no one in the room. And Dean's like, freaking out. And then, like, Ian, he makes a sound on the floor, so Dean realizes that he's still alive, and then he calls for help. [G: Yeah.] Pencil neck stab, pretty neat. I feel like an actual pencil would break if you tried that, though, but I don't know. I'm not testing it.

G: I'm not testing it either, but like, those things are shockingly sharp.

C: Well, that was probably Sam's only friend. [G laughs] Sorry, Sam. [G laughing] He'll make a new one. He's good at that in this setting.

G: Exactly.

G: We're outside. Dean's being investigated or whatever. He's giving his like, statement to the police officer. And like, while all this is happening, Sam, like, passes by and they catch each other's eyes, and it kind of like, sets Dean aback.

C: I wish Sam had more of a reaction to the fact that it is Ian specifically.

G: Yeah. He DGAF. He never mentions Ian again. No mention of anything.

C: That was his best friend, and he really did just let him go.

G: Yeah. [laughs] "'Cause it was easier," period. [both laughing] There's nothing else.

He's back in his cubicle. Totally unfazed. None of his actions betray that he is affected by this whatsoever.

C: He has even less energy than he usually does, but yeah, not much there.

G: He picks up the ringing phone, and yeah, it's Dean telling him, "Come to my office."

C: They make a point to show that he's rebuttoning his shirt.

G: Yeah. [laughing] I did find that pretty funny. Why?

C: Like, what was that? Okay, the point is he's changing his clothes because he got blood all over them from Ian, right, so it's the same day. But like, it's still like, "Okay, is this like, the world's tamest fanservice? Like, congrats, I guess." By rebuttoning the shirt, I mean, like, 3 buttons. Like, you're not seeing anything.

G: Yeah. Sam shows up, and Dean asks, like, "Who the hell are you?" And Sam says, "I'm not sure I know," [C: Hell yeah, baby!] which is fascinating.

C: He's so main character-coded! I love him!

G: Yeah, I know. Yeah. He says, "I'm Sam Wesson, and I started here three weeks ago." Dean also did.

C: So what was Cas doing during these three weeks when his boss was like, "I'm putting your favorite little guy into a fun little hamster wheel to watch him spin."?

G: I don't know. He was like, "He seems a bit sad. [laughing] Maybe we should put Sam in there also." [C laughs] [C: For enrichment.] He recommended he put Sam in there also, yeah.

C: Yeah, though, I mean, if Cas suggested that they put Sam in there, I think he's still on the "Make Sam stop doing demon blood shit" agenda. So like, I feel like we could have gotten more. 'Cause this episode should have been about like, giving Dean the worst corporate job ever, and giving Sam the best corporate job ever [laughing] so that Dean leaves, but Sam doesn't. [G laughs]

G: But like, you have to remember that Zachariah knows.

C: Oh, about the full plan, including the Lucifer vessel. [G: Yeah.] We're to presume. Or do we know that because he traps Dean in the green room later? I have no clue what that is, but like-

G: I'm not sure if actually, he knows what the full plan is. But like, he knows that they need to keep Dean in that room and let Sam do his thing. [C: Mm-hm.] And like, I mean Cas knew that "Lilith is the final seal. Sam kills Lilith, the end begins," or whatever that line is.

C: When was he told this?

G: Who? Dean?

C: When was Cas told this? Isn't he like, pro-killing Lilith?

G: He was told in 4.20.

C: Right, he let Sam out of the panic room, right? In "When the Levee Breaks" or something?

G: Yeah.

C: Whatever, we'll get to it when we get to it.

G: No, but like, he was gonna tell Dean, right? Like, he shows up in Dean's dream in 4.20, [C: That's true.] and that's why he gets booted up back in Heaven, and, you know. Dean says something about that. A line.

C: I'm really curious about how long Cas has known. Because the whole like, "They don't tell me much. I just know that our fate rests with you." Like, I think that's genuine. I think he doesn't know Michael vessel stuff in 4.16.

G: I do genuinely think it was 4.20. Like, the moment he knew, he was like, "I need to tell Dean." [C: Oh. Aww.] And then they booted his ass back up into Heaven.

C: Maybe Destiel is real.

G: I told you. [C laughs] I have been telling you.

C: Sam was just put in because Dean needed a push. I think that's all it was. Yeah. As we already said, like, they knew, like, Sam would actually want to get back to the hunting life, given where he is right now, and they don't need to convince him of anything. So he's just there to be a manic pixie dream girl type.

G: They start talking about the ghost. Yeah, at some point Sam goes, "Oh, you really saw the ghost, didn't you? I mean all these suicides, what if they aren't suicides? I mean, what if they're... something not natural?" [C laughing] I love it. I love it.

C: Yeah, I did chuckle at this.

G: Did a bit of a giggle, yeah. [C: Yeah.] They start like, talking in earnest of like, "What's going on?" And Sam is like, "Yeah, I was dreaming about ghosts, and then suddenly, there's a real ghost. What does that mean?" And Dean asked like, "Oh, so like, you have special visions? You're some kind of psychic?" [C laughs] And I love that even in this universe where Dean doesn't know the implications of that, and like, doesn't think of monsters, blah blah blah, you know, like, doesn't have the weave of information he has in, like, his usual life with his usual memories, [laughing] he's still so fucking judgemental about the psychic situation. [C: Yeah.] Like, I love it. I think it's so funny

C: Yeah.

G: And Sam, apparently, has been doing research, and the research is he hacked into these two guys' emails. He saw that they both received an email from HR telling them to go to Room 1444. So that's 1444, which is, you know, in feng sh- How do you pronounce that? I still have no idea how to pronounce-

C: Feng shui? [fung shway]

G: Feng shui. In feng shui, that's bad. That's bad. It's a bad floor, and that's a bad room number. Let's kick the door down, baby! No, [laughs] Sam literally does kick the door down. They go to the room- No, they have like, a little conversation first, where they were like, "Oh, should we do it?" And then Dean was like, "Oh, you're right, like, it's a bit too late. I shouldn't bother you" or something. And Sam just looks at him and goes, "I'm dying to check this out." And Dean's like, "Okay, let's go. Hell yeah!" And then they do. Sam kicks down the door.

C: Hey, quick question. So the ghost was sending emails? [G laughing] That guy?

G: This guy was like, "I'm the ghost of corporate past, but you know what? There's like, you know, technological upgrades, we need to, you know, to strive as a company. We need to change with the times."

C: Adjust for the modern era.

G: Exactly. Before they enter, we see like, a guy who's just there.

C: Yeah, who got called in.

G: As Sam barges into the door, they fight off this guy, and eventually, Dean gets a hold of a pipe or whatever.

C: A wrench?

G: He gets a hold of a wrench, and then he swipes it over the ghost of corporate past. [laughs] I need to stop calling this "ghost of corporate past." He literally is, though. Like, he looks like it, too. He looks like Scrooge McDuck.

C: Yeah. Yeah. He's got that oil baron vibe.

G: [laughing] I need to- What is the real name of Scrooge? 'Cause I cannot keep on calling it "Scrooge McDuck" in my head.

C: No, that is his name.

G: [laughing] His name in real life is Scrooge McDuck? [laughing]

C: [laughing] Wait, do you mean the- [laughing] the Ducktales Scrooge or the Christmas Carol Scrooge?

G: [laughing] Yeah. What's his name?

C: In A Christmas Carol?

G: [laughing] Yeah.

C: Scrooge is his last name. His first name is Ebenezer.

G: [laughing] It's like- why wouldn't you just call him "Scrooge McDuck the person"? Well, he literally does look like Scrooge McDuck the person. For fucking real.

C: I don't know. Dean doesn't want to drink a beer and got rid of all the carbs in his house. We're doing the same thing again. Wait, did we skip the salad? When did he eat the salad? Does it even matter that he ate a salad? [laughs] Probably not.

G: Well, he ate a salad. Let's say it here. At some point, he eats a salad. I do think it's interesting that the way they shoot that scene is like, focused on his lips chewing and then focused on his eyes that are like, dead empty. And it's like, so you're telling us that like, eating veggies is like, not fulfilling? What's the point?

C: Yeah, that is what they're saying.

G: I mean, I do understand that like, that's what they're saying, and then combining it with the juice cleanse is also saying something about diet culture. But like, the bigger context of the episode is just [C laughs] "It's unsatisfying to be a homo." Like- [both laughing]

C: He doesn't even go to the health club.

G: Exactly. They couldn't let him go to the health club, 'cause if he went to the health club he would be like, "It is satisfying to be a homo." [laughing]

C: Yeah, he wouldn't go back to being a hunter.

G: Yeah, he would continue being a gay employee.

C: Though [laughing] I do think that he wouldn't be that into casual sex.

G: [laughs] I'm right? I'm right?

C: They're talking. They seem to have had a good time on that hunt. Dean says, "Good job kicking down that door. That was very Jet Li." Slay, I guess. Also-

G: They're both complimenting each other. Like, they both cannot believe that the other is good at this.

C: "Oh my god," and like, "Yeah, we're really good at this."

G: It's not even like, a "Oh my god, you're great!" It's like a "Why are you great? [laughs] Like, what's wrong?" That's so funny to me.

C: I mean, every day, they've gotten dressed, and they've looked at their giant, bulging muscles in their fucking officewear, and they didn't think about it at all, so I guess this is their thinking about it.

Sam starts basically saying what I think are probably Taylor Swift lyrics where he says, "I just can't shake this feeling, like, I don't belong here." And later he says that, like, he hates this town or whatever. I'm pretty sure she says that shit.

G: [laughing] No, that's so funny that you say this is Taylor Swift lyrics, because this line specifically: "Look, it's more than that. I don't like my job. I don't like this town. I don't like my clothes. I don't like my own last name."

C: Oh, is that Bruce Springsteen?

G: It's literally "Dancing in the Dark" Bruce Springsteen. Like, "I wanna change my clothes, my hair, my face. I ain't getting nowhere, just living in a dump like this." [both laugh] Like, he's so Bruce Springsteen "Dancing in the Dark"-core.

C: Well, good for him.

G: He says, "It feels like I should be doing something else." Well, as Bruce Springsteen said, "There's something happening somewhere. Baby, I just know that there is." [C laughs]

C: And then he says, "There's just something in my blood. [G: Ooh! Fun.] Like, I was destined for something different." Fun stuff! [G: Fun stuff.] And Dean says that he doesn't believe in destiny, just in dealing with what's right in front of us. And is that also their attitudes about the Apocalypse? I guess it's Dean's attitude about 4.07 Like, "I don't care about the seal. I care about this town. These people are real." So yeah. And then Dean says, "We do what I do best, Sammy. Research." You're not the loreboy. Don't claim that.

G: Exactly.

G: And they do a sort of tortured thing where Sam's like, "Did you just call me Sammy?" And it goes on for way too long.

Dean does research-

G: And I actually really love this scene.

C: I love it. I did not expect the Ghostfacers to be back, and they are! And it's wonderful! [G laughs]

G: They're back, and they literally are doing a step-by-step "how to kill a ghost" like, vlog, basically.

C: It's great. [G: It's great.] 'Cause, like, they know now. They learned.

G: Yeah. And their info is right.

C: Mm-hm. It's wonderful. [G: Yeah!] So like, the humor is that Dean thinks that these guys are like, great. [G: Super cool, yeah.] Like, not losers. [G: For real, yeah.] Like, "Look. These are like, for real, actual ghost hunters. Like, look at this!" And it's a video of Ed and Harry of Ghostfacers fame, you know, doing their bits, saying that they know how to solve your ghost issue. We sort of intersperse their advice with what Sam and Dean do. So like, first, it's like, figure out what you're up against. And Sam has found an article about the death of the founder of Sandover, who died in 1916, and was very devoted to his work. Sam says, "No wife, no kids." Which, is that what we're supposed to think about Dean and the "you get to fornicate with women" line from Zachariah later?

G: Maybe?

C: He can't fuck because he's too busy working?

G: I mean, he also has no wife and kids, like, in the hunter world. [laughs] Like-

C: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Well, maybe this guy was just aromantic. Diversity win! This, like, capitalist shill is aromantic. [G laughs]

G: Exactly.

C: But yeah. So that's him. And they used to say that he was the company, and his very blood pumped through the building.

G: That's so disgusting.

C: Which we don't get later. I was so ready for, like, actual bits of his blood to be in the walls of the building, because, like, it says that he oversees all the construction of, like, all his projects, right? So like, maybe he got like, injured during construction, and then some of his blood got trapped inside the walls. But no, they're just saying this as a figure of speech. Boo!

G: They need to remove the mortar.

C: Everyone read Thirteen Storeys by Jonny Sims. What did you say?

G: They need to remove like, a load-bearing- [C laughs] What do you call that? The like, fucking beam or something.

C: I know what you mean. Like, a beam or something?

G: [laughs] Yeah, they need to remove the like, foundational post and make the entire building fall to pieces to kill this ghost.

C: So so true. And apparently, the last time people started killing themselves a bunch in the building was in 1929. There was 17 suicides. [laughing] And this is when they're like, "Oh, he wakes up during times of economic downturn! [G laughing] And the worst time we've seen during the Great Depression is now during the housing crisis."

G: Lovely.

C: It's really funny. [laughs] I mean, I'm sure it felt realer during the time, just like saying that demon did 9/11 [G laughs] while they posed as Homeland Security, which was also new at the time, felt realer at the time. And I understand that like, this was like, quite bad, and like, real people, were affected by this. [G: Yeah.] But it's just a very- it's a silly thing, because Supernatural doesn't usually engage with like, current events in this way.

G: Yeah. It is fascinating, 'cause, like, you know, Sam and Dean are like, working class in Supernatural. And it's like- because Supernatural does not interact with like, politics at all.

C: Yeah, the market economy as is.

G: Like, the current economic whatever whatever of the United States, [laughing] this is like, our first division of the economy, I think. [C: Yup, it really is.] And it's like, during a situation where they are in a position- I mean, Dean is in a position to care 'cause his portfolio's in the sewers. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I don't know. Is that something? Are they saying something with that? That like, [laughing] if you're working class, whatever whatever?

C: Oh, like, since they're already living outside of the like, market economy, they aren't affected by these things. Meanwhile, all these cuck office workers, like, as long as something bad happens in the government, there goes all their money? I don't know. [laughs] I think the idea is just that they'd be grateful for the job stability that they have here, so it would make it harder for them to leave? Or like, that's something that's affecting Dean?

G: I mean, specifically, I think what's happening is that Supernatural just purports to be like, a for-all-Americans show. [laughs] And so they don't want to get into the politics of anything. [C: Yeah.] Which is fascinating because the show is intensely, like, intensely political in its implications. But okay.

C: Yeah, I do always get so stuck on the fact that Cas didn't kill that guy because he was a homophobe. He killed him because he was homophobic and gay.

G: What are you talking about?

C: He says "I can't stand hypocrites." [G: Oh, yeah!] Like, Godstiel. [G laughs] The point is that the guy says that being gay is a sin, and then he has secret gay sex. It's not because he's a homophobe. It's because he's lying to his congregation. That's why he gets killed. Like, they wouldn't even say that it's bad to be homophobic.

G: [laughing] I thought you were talking about the "Gimme Shelter" kid [C laughs] who got killed like, in a hate crime for being gay. [C laughing] I was like, "What do you mean? [laughing] What do you mean?" Well, yeah.

C: Yeah. Supernatural will not take a stance on anything, except it takes stances every second that it exists, unknowingly.

Right. So Sandover's trying to help the company by [G: Kicking out the employees.], you know, getting the employees that aren't very good and then making them into model employees. Bro, like, the turnover that you're creating. I feel like it's more expensive for the company to hire somebody new. Like, you could just fire them if you think they're not good. Also, like, if they're still like, they have to pay out the life insurance, which- I mean, yeah. Anyway.

G: What is the regularization like, status in the United States?

C: The regularization of what?

G: Like, if I say- of jobs. Like, when are you regularized?

C: What's regularized?

G: It's when you start getting benefits.

C: I mean, I think it differs company to company, but for me, it was as soon as I started.

G: Oh! Okay.

C: I think, okay, I think we signed up, so it took like, a month or so.

G: Yeah, here, you get your benefits after 6 months. For like, call center, what Sam's doing right now, that job that I applied to, I was gonna get regularized after 6 months. [C: Got it.] And that is if you're not a contractual worker. The joke I was gonna make is, "I don't know. Maybe those guys are regularized." [C laughs]

C: Yeah Maybe so.

G: Maybe they aren't. I mean, Paul is definitely regularized.

C: Yeah, he was two weeks from retirement.

G: Yeah. Ian, probably a new kid. Yeah. Wants to fuck the GMILF, even. [C: Yeah.] And he didn't even get to fuck that GMILF. So sad.

C: I think he could have in the time in between. Like, there was a day that passed. Two days, maybe.

G: Yeah. His swagger was so strong, he was able to do it in a day.

C: Yeah. And Sam also finds the fourteenth floor, and specifically the room 1444, was where Sandover's office was. The Ghostfacers then explain how salt is like, burny acid to ghosts, and iron also helps repel them. And also explains that "We learned this trick from those useless douchebags that we hate. The Winchesters." So like, Zachariah does say later that, like, this is their world. He just like, erased Sam and Dean's memories and then put them in a real company.

G: Yeah, so this is literally just in the ether. Yeah, this is just like, in the internet for real.

C: Yeah. And if either of them looked up "Sam Winchester" or "Dean Winchester," then they would get like, the FBI's Most Wanted thing. So that's why their last names are changed.

G: With Chuck, it's the Winchester Gospel, right? But he doesn't say Winchester in the book.

C: Oh, yeah, he uses a different name so that people don't think he's writing serial killer fanfiction.

G: [laughing] That's so funny. Imagine you're like, on the internet, and you watch like, a news TV show, and it's like, serial killers Sam and Dean Winchester. [laughing] And then you find this book, and it's like, "Sam and Dean Winchester," and there's like, an extended portion of Dean Winchester making lovey-dovey eyes with an angel, and it's like, "What is this serial killer? They made an OC who's an angel? Like, what is going on?" [C laughing] [C: Yeah.] They literally did that in Supernatural with Colette, though. [laughing] Like, for rela.

C: They did. They did. [G: Yeah.] And Sam and Dean are both like, "Well, we can't get a gun, so." Finally, Ed and Harry talk about how you have to burn the remains. I guess you don't have to salt and burn them, because Sam did not salt those gloves. The salt was just for fun?

G: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we talked constantly in the past like, "What does the salt do? Is it like a-"

C: Apparently nothing.

G: Apparently nothing. Apparently, it does nothing. You don't even need to put gas on that thing. [C laughs] It'll just burn like it has a gas on it, even.

C: Yeah. And then they also say that sometimes, you have to dig up the body. But Sandover was cremated. And then Ed and Harry say like, "If the deceased was cremated, then you should just look for some other like, genetic material that's hanging around." And that's the end of the episode. Of the fucking Ghostfacers episode.

G: Yeah. I do love that like, Harry and Ed are like, obviously very annoying people. But like, this is like, actually useful stuff. It's actually useful.

C: Yeah, this is probably better than anything Sam or Dean have done so far.

G: Yeah! This is like, actually helping people in a way where they can do it themselves. 'Cause like, there's not always gonna be a hunter around. [C: Mm-hm.] I mean, hunters only come to a place where people have already died 'cause that's how they know that there's something there, 'cause people have already died.

C: Yeah, but like, if you're just having cold air in your house-

G: If you're the first guy, you're like, "Okay, what do I do?" And you look it up, and Harry and Ed are here to help you.

C: Yeah, 'cause Dean found them- like, it didn't take too long. So they're doing a decent job at being high in the search results.

G: Also, like, I don't know. I mean, we've talked about this. Like, who is Sam and Dean protecting by hiding this from the world?

C: Exactly.

G: And it's like, you're protecting the people who will not be affected by it so that they can sleep better at night. But the people who will be affected by it, who will be attacked by ghosts-

C: Die because of that.

G: - will die. And it's like, "Okay, but how are we weighing those things?" And apparently, to Sam and Dean, very heavily on the side of the people who will just not be affected by death.

C: I'm still so stuck on how that guy in "Sex and Violence" declared his specific intent [G: "I'm gonna kill myself," yeah.] to kill himself for killing his wife, and they find out it's a siren, and they don't go back and tell him or anything. They just skip town. And like, we know that that guy's gonna kill himself. And if they had told him, maybe- like, it'd be difficult to believe, but if they had some kind of evidence, then, like, I don't know. Like, it's worth giving it a shot, but they were like, "We don't give a fuck," and then they go.

G: And also, they got sirened, so they know what it feels like. They know what it does to your mind. I feel like they can, you know, convey to that guy well enough that like, "I know how you felt 'cause that's exactly how I felt, and I know, because I actually did feel it."

C: Yeah. But apparently having people sleep easier at night is more important. I'm sure some hunters hide it because they want to feel useful. They're like, "If the government knows about this, then I don't have a job anymore, and then I have to confront the fact that I have no life." [G laughs]

G: They will militarize the hunters, yeah.

C: Yeah, I mean, hunters do see themselves as the meme image of the soldier [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] holding his hands out over a sleeping child's bed, while like, bloody knives stab him.

Thank you, Ed and Harry. I know they're mostly just doing this because they want a movie deal or whatever. But like, you know what? Like, good. Good. You should get a movie deal. [laughs] Like, more people should know.

G: Exactly.

G: Well, Sam and Dean are back in Sandover Iron and Co. whatever, and they say that like, "We should make our cell phones into walkie talkies in case we get separated," which is so fun. That's so fun! [C: It is.] Can you still do that in a modern phone? I don't think so.

C: I don't think so.

G: But like, how does it work? Like, do you like, flip a button in that old thing, and it turns into a walkie talkie?

C: I guess.

G: [laughing] The term "walkie talkie" is so cute! [C: It is.] It sounds like a word that we'll make up on like, this podcast. Like, "It's a lappytoppy, it's a walkie talkie," okay, it's so cute. And it's because they're walking, and they're gonna be talking.

Their plan is to go to the 1444 floor room and look at stuff to figure out what the fuck is left behind. And as they're looking, Sam is closer to the door, like, right beside the door, and Dean is like, deeper into the room, just looking through the shelves. And then suddenly, a guard comes in and like, obviously, sees Sam immediately, and Dean just ducks out and hides.

C: And this guard wasn't possessed or anything, right?

G: This guard was just doing this for the laughs, yeah.

C: 'Cause he acts so creepy. And I was like, "There's gotta be something going on here ghost-wise," but like, I don't think there was. But okay, there was the cold air in the elevator before the guy gets killed by the elevator, but like, it also just felt like a regular death. I don't know. I'm confused about Sandover's role in this guard's life.

G: I was gonna say, the other people who are killed were possessed or whatever.

C: Yeah, they got zapped in the brain with his electricity thing, and it changed them.

G: But like, the thing that you can connect to the guard is like, so he died, therefore, blah blah blah. But like, those people like, killed themselves because they were incompetent in their job or whatever. This guy like, just dies a very unfortunate death. [C: Yeah.] This death is amazing, though. [C: Yeah.] I mean, it's horrible, as I've said.

C: No, it's great, though.

G: I still think about it. It's horrible. I mean, what happens is like, the guard like, brings Sam out, and in the elevator, like, the elevator like, gets stuck in between floors. So it's like, only half of the door is like, up, whatever. And so the guard climbs out, and he climbs out like, already. Like, he's already out. And he's telling Sam like, "Come on. Like, just climb out." And Sam's like, "I'm not doing that." And he's like, "Just come on!" and Sam's like, "Nope." The guard sticks his head in, and then, like, the elevator turns back on. [C: Yup.] And it slices him in half, and there's like, a wonderful blad- blood [C laughs] splatter on Sam's shirt and face. [C: It's great.] It's resonant. Like, you remember it, which is, obviously, because I remember it [laughs] very intensely. That's still crazy 'cause, like, that is like, a very specific- if there is like, any other media- If you're a listener and you're listening to this- God knows why. It's so long. [both laugh]- And there's like, any other media where this kind of thing happens, like, tell me.

C: I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

G: Yeah. And like, I'm asking people like, please tell me this stuff it has happened to, 'cause like, I'm still not 100% convinced that this is the source of that fear. [C: Okay, yeah.] That's too convenient. [C laughs] Like, so many of my fears in life are already rooted in Supernatural. Let's find something else. And if there is something else-

C: So much of your life is rooted in Supernatural, though.

G: [laughs] It's true. It's- why? It's crazy.

C: You watched it when you were at an impressionable age.

G: I still think about the fact that in our Good Omens ender podcast, when they asked about Cas, I literally said, "He's like a brother to me. [C laughs] In fact, I've known him longer than my sister." And it's like, [laughing] why am I talking- why did I say that? [laughing]

C: 'Cause it's true.

G: I mean, it's true. My little sister is like, 8 years old, and I've known Cas longer than her. [laughing] But what a crazy comparison to make.

Eventually, Sam and Dean meet up in like, this display room where gloves are like, in this glass case. [C: Yeah.] And so they smash in that glass case-

C: The gloves are Sandover's. [G: Oh, yeah.] The display room is a little museum to the company.

G: They smash in that thing, and as soon as it the glass gets broken, like, cold air. Sandover, I suppose, since I said I would stop calling him Christmas- ghost of corporate past. Well, he shows up. And then they start like, doing this little bit. I mean, it's actually really fun, where like, Sam throws the poker, and Dean is like, "Wow, good one." [C: Yeah.] And then Dean gets to do it, and Sam's like, "That's good." [C laughs] And then they do it together, and they do it one at a time. Like, it's so fun! They're having so much fun. [C: It is fun.] And then, you know, eventually, because they're Sam and Dean, they get their ass beat by the ghost. And there's like, this really fun blood trickle from Dean's scalp down to his like, forehead by his eyebrow. Real nice! Real nice. It's been a while since we got a good like, Sam and Dean blood on their face that's you know, their blood [C: That's true.], and it's important to me.

C: Yeah, they were like, depriving them of their blood on their face rations so that Cas could look so hot during "On the Head of a Pin."

G: Exactly. Eventually, Dean is like, cornered, and he's about to get zapped in the brain, and Sam is like, "Oh, should I go and save Dean? Or should I go and save Dean for real by burning these gloves?" [C laughs] And he does the second. Burns the gloves. It's over. And they were like, "Wow. We're so cool!" [C laughs] And they are. They are. [C: Yeah.] Honestly, I think they are, this episode. [C laughing]

C: I think they're fun.

G: I think because they approach it with an earnestness. [C: That's true.] Specifically Dean. 'Cause, like, Dean in real life is like, "Oh, I'm so cool, but you're the one who thinks that of me. You're supposed to be the one who thinks that of me." And like, obviously, Dean IRL like, thinks he's cool, too, but like, it's so like, a performance kind of way, you know? Like, "Did it look good, like in the movies?" as he said in "Mystery Spot." And here, it is genuinely just Dean being like, "And I think it's cool because I'm doing it, and I think I'm cool." [C laughs] And like, I feel like a lot of the other "How am I perceived?" blah blah blah gets, you know, [C: Yeah.] gets removed from that. And I think mostly that's just because it's, you know, it's not new to Dean Dean anymore. But it is nice to see Dean like, be enthused by what he's doing. Which is like, "Yeah, it's a pretty cool thing," with like, an earnestness that he doesn't really have in his usual time.

C: Also, he just thinks that it's cool that it works. Like, "No way. There's this guy, and he disappears when I do this."

G: Yeah. "Whoa!"

C: Yeah, 'cause I feel like it really doesn't really register to him that this is a matter of life and death, even though he saw like, two people kill themselves. So like, it's more of like, "This is like, a fun extracurricular."

G: I mean, he said "Hell of a workout." [laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah. Which like, I guess it is sort of surprising that Dean Smith would see Ian stab himself to death with a pencil in front of him, and then also be almost killed by that ghost choking him, and like, not be particularly fazed by it. [G: Yeah.] But yeah, I guess that's the old Dean resilience coming in.

G: It's so funny when Zachariah was like, "Damn! Why the long face? [C laughs] Like, what's up with you, man? Hopefully, you're not thinking of quitting." And it's like, the dude just saw like, a guy get stabbed in the fucking throat. Like, okay.

C: Three people died at your company this week. That could be a reason to quit, I think, if this place makes like, two people that miserable, and then also that security guard made a bad choice that ended very badly.

C: We're back in Dean's office, having a conversation afterwards, and Sam and Dean both say that they've never had this much fun in their life. Oh, hey! Doesn't Dean say that in "Free to Be You and Me"? Or "I've never laughed so hard"?

G: Yeah. In years. He says "in years." "I haven't laughed this hard in years."

C: Okay. Not the same thing.

G: Damn. We're gonna watch this episode, and we're gonna be like, "Dean and Cas are in love and so cute. And also, Supernatural is like, soo bad." [C laughing] And it is. Both things are true. And Sam is also there. [laughing]

C: Sam's important to me!

G: I mean, it's so funny because that episode- [laughing] I think someone described it once as "Dean and Cas are having a little date, and Sam is fighting for his life behind the bar counter," and that literally is what happens that episode.

C: Okay, this conversation, I think, is a bit too soon and a bit forced, but I get that they have like, a time limit on the episode, and they have to get here eventually. So yeah, Dean's just laying back, having a casual fun time. And Sam says, like, "We should keep doing this. Like, for real. There could be other ghosts out there. We could help a lot of people." And Dean isn't taking this seriously. I do think that it's interesting that, like, this is where Sam, with his memories wiped, goes to for the first thing. Like, "Let's do this so that we can like, help a lot of people, and I know there's more ghosts killing people out there." 'Cause they've been trying to tell us that Sam doesn't really want to save the world for the saving the world's sake. [G: Yeah.] But like, this, Sam does seem to be of that mindset. Also, okay, there's still demon blood in him right now. It was just a memory wipe. So like, it's not like they're trying to say something about how that changes how he thinks. Though I guess he's been off it for three weeks. [G: Yeah.] Ugh. I wish this was a more Sam-centric episode. I wanted to see, like, Sam, like, in this role, going through like, demon blood withdrawal and like, not knowing what's going on. [G: Yeah.] Like, isn't that interesting? That, plus the dreams, plus everything else? Ugh. But yeah. I don't know. In this episode, Sam does care about saving the world for saving the world's sake. Yeah. Is it like- what? His life- like, because hunting has always been like, so negative for both of them, like, he's gotten really jaded in his regular life about saving the world. He cares more about like, the power rush of drinking demon blood and things like that. But like, if you take those negative associations away, you get to like, the good person core of him? Is that the point?

G: I don't even know. I mean, like, the whole Pamela deal was like, "Your intentions are bad." [C: Right.] Which we have railed against that notion. But I will continue to do so.

C: Yeah, yeah. Dean's like, "You're crazy. Like, you want us to quit our jobs and like, hit the road? Like, how would we get by? With stolen credit cards? Eating diner food drenched in saturated fats? Sharing a crap motel room every night?" And at this point, it's just getting to be a bit much. Like, okay, I get it.

G: Sam goes, "That's all just details." Which, oh god! Like, it does make me feel emo that like, Dean, here is like, so fickle.

C: Yeah, like, he wants health insurance, is what he's saying.

G: In real life, you don't see Dean say these things, and it's just like, later on in the show-

C: Well, in "Yellow Fever."

G: Yeah. But, you know, that's a different thing, also. Like, that's Dean, like, uninhibited by like, whatever whatever.

C: That was just Dean with high anxiety.

G: [laughs] That's true. He was uninhibited by anti-anxiety meds. [C laughs] But like, later on in the show, when he does finally have, like, a place, his own room in the bunker, like, we see these, like, fickleness come out. Suddenly, he's like, very fickle with his stuff in his room, you know, like, he decorates, and like, we don't hear him complain about the crap motel room every night or the sleeping in the car, but later on, when he is allowed to have things that are not that, we see that he does want those things. And, I don't know. Dean is like- between them, Sam and Dean both, like, there are so many things that they just won't say. [C: Yeah.] And a lot of those things are like, "Well, what do we actually really want from life?" Because, you know, when your life is like this, when you say those things, I guess it's more harm than good. 'Cause if you can't have it, then, like, why say it? [laughs] It's just horrible to think about.

C: Yeah. And I find Sam's "That's just details" quite interesting, too. Because, like-

G: Yeah, I also read it as super interesting.

C: 'Cause, okay, in the past, he's been like, the "I want a normal life" guy, but like, this seems to imply that it's not about like, the comfort or safety of a normal life. It's like, currently, "That's just details." Like, he's saying that "My ideals are that I want to help people, and like, this is the way to do it, and I'm willing to sacrifice personal comfort and things like that in order to do it." I guess it makes me wonder if like, going to Stanford was also like, an ideological, like, "I don't deserve"- like, "I deserve better than to be raised in this household and like, by leaving, I'm like, making a point about that." Like, it's not just about the "I want to live in a house that I own."

G: I mean, it is different for Sam when it's like, leaving hunting and then leaving his family, because, like, for Sam to be able to leave his family, he does need to stop being a hunter. [C: Mm-hm.] I think it's fundamental to that because the hunter community is so small, and like, eventually, they'll have to work together. They'll have to like, see each other. And if you just want to like, completely remove yourself from that, then, like, you have no choice but to leave. And also, Sam didn't want to remove himself completely from that. It was John who said, "If you want to do this, leave forever." I do think, like, Sam, if he didn't start out like, in the hunting life, would choose to be a hunter, and maybe even, if he wasn't in this particular hunting family, he would choose to be a hunter. It's just that his particular circumstances make that particular choice, like, more defeatist than it should be. [C: Hm.] If Sam lived a similar, like, life, as you know, Ellen and Jo, [C: Yeah.] like, that kind of environment where Jo grew up with hunter parents and like, whatever, but, like, Ellen, is purposely trying to stop her from doing that, like, I think Sam would act like Jo and be like, "But I actually do want to do it." [C: Hm. Yeah.] It's just his particular set of circumstances makes it more complicated than just "What do I want to do?"

C: Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. I will slot that into my many, many Sam interpretations as a potential one, [laughing] 'cause I know this is a controversial topic.

G: Is it?

C: Yeah, whether or not Sam wants to be a hunter is a very controversial topic, isn't it?

G: I suppose so. I mean, again, it's circumstantial. Want is a complicated word, 'cause, like, hunting is a complicated life.

C: And associations with that are tied into many things that are beyond the job.

G: And like, even here, when Sam goes, "It's all just details." And it's like, yes, but also, you're only able to say that really 'cause you don't know yet-

C: Right. What it's like.

G: - what it's like. What those details are really and what they entail really. So yeah. We can also say here that like, this Sam doesn't actually really want to hunt, just like, the idea of it or whatever. [C: Right.] It could go any direction.

C: His apartment is probably way less good than Dean's, so [laughing] Dean's taking away a bigger step down than Sam is.

G: Yeah, probably. Yeah. And Sam finally says, like, "Do you remember those dreams about the ghosts I told you about? I was fighting them with you. We were hunters, and we were friends. More like, brothers, really. I mean, what if that's who we really are. Like, what if we really are like, brothers, and we ought to work together, and like, we really are like, hunters." Yeah. And the rest of the conversation is Dean being like, "You're crazy. That's crazy. Are we the crazy brothers?"

C: "You're the crazy brother."

G: "I hate you." [laughs] "You're the crazy brother, not me!" And Sam is trying to say that like, "They like, scrambled my brain, and they scrambled your brain." Dean says, like, "Oh, but my family. I know them. I'm Dean Smith, Director of Sales and Marketing, went to Stanford. Father's name is Bob. Mother's name is Ellen. Sister's name is Jo." That's [both] crazy. That's crazy.

C: They literally said, "Why don't we just pair the spares in the background?" Also, yeah, I so assumed that both of them were only children in this universe, so it's interesting to hear that, like, Dean, is like, an older brother here, but like, that doesn't come with any of the responsibilities that being an older brother in his real life is, so like, he can just be like, "Yeah, I haven't talked to her in a long time. It doesn't matter."

G: Yeah. Sam is like, "You haven't talked to them in a long time, though. And I'll know, 'cause like, I moved here because I broke up with my fiancee, Madison." [C: Ah!] It's crazy, right?

C: Yeah, that they chose her?

G: Yeah. But, you know, she called her number, and it was an animal hospital.

C: So true.

G: Love that. Sam says, "All I know is, I got this feeling in my gut, and I know that deep down, you gotta be feeling it, too. We're supposed to be something else. You're not just some corporate douchebag. This isn't you? I know you." And Dean says, "Know me? You don't know me, pal. You should go." And like, I started crying in this scene.

C: Damn. [laughs]

G: 'Cause I remembered a conversation I had with my sister when we were young, and you know when you're young, and like, young. Like, my sister and I, we have a two-year age gap, so like, we're pretty close in age.

C: Oh yeah. That is my sister and I's age gap. It involves a lot of kicking each other and saying you wished the other person was never born when you were young. [laughs]

G: Bro. One time my sister kicked me to the wall, and I hit my back to the wall, and it was like, when you hit your back on the floor and all of your breath is like, out of your body? [C: Uh-huh.] That happened to me, and the whole time, she was like, "You deserved it 'cause you're so horrible to me!" [both laughing] And you know what? I probably did. I was a pretty horrible child. And, okay, well, the story is actually super sweet. But like, one time, we're kids, probably like, 7 and 9. Something like that. She was telling me like, "Oh no! What if I get lost? How will you find me?" And I was like, "I'll know what you look like." And she says, "No, but like, what if they change my face, and like, I'm trying to tell you, 'Hey, this is me,' but you don't recognize me?" And I go like, "Well, you'll tell me, and I'll believe you." And she's like, "No, but what if they take away my memories and I don't remember? How will you know it's me?" And I go, "You have a mole on your back, and it's very big and prominent, so I'll just go, 'Show me your back,' and you'll show me the mole, and I'll know it's you." And she goes, "Well, what if they remove the mole too?" And I go, "I think I'll just know it's you, no matter what." And like, this scene reminds me of that. And it's like, [teary] they are siblings! I don't know. It's just- Sam and Dean, I feel like a lot of time, we focus on their like, conflict and like, they hate each other, and they're like, bad for each other most of the time, blah blah blah. [C: Yeah.] But like, this- when Sam says, like, "I know you," it really is less like, "I know you" in that, like, "I understand you." Like, we constantly talk about like, Sam and Dean not really understanding each other and understanding like, the motivations, you know, like, how they feel, really. But like, at the end of the day, like, you'll know that's your brother. And it's not about like, understanding him or whatever. [tearing up again] It's like- it's not about understanding them. Like, their motivations and everything. It's just like, "I know it's you." You know? [C: Yeah.] And yeah, that does mean something to me! [laughs] And that same sister did kick me to the wall. [C: So true.] And said I deserved it because I was so horrible. And it's probably true!

C: Yeah. It is interesting that they made them not brothers in this AU. [G: Yeah.] What was the reasoning there? Like, if Zachariah wanted Dean to realize who he's meant to be earlier, wouldn't he have them be together?

G: No, I don't think so. [C: No?] Because, like, the point is that- actually, I have a lot of things to say about like, what Zachariah says later, so let's go to the nitty-gritty of what Zachariah says later. But for why Sam and Dean are like, not brothers here, and is that essential or whatever whatever.

C: I think it's essential. But I'm just curious about why the choice was made.

G: Well, first, you cannot have them in the same like, power position, I think. [C: Hm.] Do you think they could have been like, brothers, but Sam is like, a call center guy, and Dean is like, an exec?

C: That probably would have been rough. It would have garnered a lot of jealousy or whatever.

G: Exactly. Like, there would already be like, an underlying thing there, if that's the case.

C: Well, they could be Huntercorp.

G: Yeah, the other option is like, they're both execs. Which, again, as I've said, if you put Sam in Dean's role, it just wouldn't work in the way Sera Gamble wants it to work.

C: In terms of homophobic. [G: Yeah.] But like, that's not like, all of the point of this.

G: Actually, I do think it's a major point of it.

C: It is a pretty major point of it. But I guess I was just asking from like, a Zachariah's motivations perspective. But like, yeah, I think you should keep talking about it from a stories perspective.

G: Like, again, as I've said, I do view this episode as like, they put Dean in here, and then later on, they put Sam in, 'cause, like, whatever is happening with Dean, there's no instigation, so we need Sam to instigate.

C: Yeah, so you're saying like, Dean would see Ian stab himself in the neck in the bathroom and see like, a ghost in the mirror, but probably just go like, "Okay. Whatevs." They could've given him the dreams.

G: That's true. But we have to keep to the themes and motifs. [laughing] And we do. We really do. I think if they're both like, call center guys, I also think it wouldn't work.

C: Really.

G: 'Cause Dean just would be Ian.

C: They could make him really like his job and dress up really nice and add a tie to his yellow shirt and stuff.

G: Yeah, but like, when Sam starts going, "But is this all your life is?" whatever whatever, like, Dean cannot make the argument of like, "I don't know. But I like having a nice life that's like, rich and expensive." This is actually one of the rare opportunities in a Supernatural episode where I'm like, "I think they did it exactly just right."

G: So we go back to Sam's cubicle, and he looks, you know, pissed. [C: Hell yeah.] Doesn't like what's happening. And his phone starts ringing. [C: Mm-hm!] And he just loses it. He takes off his headphone. And like, this is not like, "losing it" as in "he's angry." Like, [laughing] completely normal guy. Just like, he was like, "And now I will destroy this fucking phone." You know? And it's wonderful. [C: Yeah.] So he thinks of his headset and picks up like, the fucking iron whatever. [C: Yeah.] [laughs] He brought it with him. And then he just starts beating the hell out of the phone. [C: Yeah.] And then, like, I don't know. It stops ringing. And then everyone's looking at him. 'Cause this is like, very long, very long scene, just beating this fucking phone. And then it's over. He takes a breath, looks at everyone who is obviously staring at him, and he just goes, "I quit."

C: God bless. He's so fun!

G: He said, "Quiet quitting? Bro, I will loud quit." [C laughs] And he did!

C: Yeah. Do you think he was a lawyer, like- Is it just that he hates working IT? Like, would he be okay as a lawyer?

G: [laughs] You think like, in the middle of the case, it'd be like, "Fuck this!" And then what? [both laughing] Takes the judge's gavel and is just like, slams it down, and he's like, "Court is adjourned. I don't give a shit."

C: [laughing] Says, "My client's guilty" and leaves.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Wonderful! I think part of it just is the monotony of the job. Actually, like, we skipped it over earlier, but like, he tells Dean like, "I think I should be doing something else." And Dean says, "I think most people in your job [C: Who work at a call center.] feel that way." Yeah.

C: So what, Zachariah gave Sam like, the worst job ever because he knew that if Sam got another job, he'd be okay? Or-

G: No, it's just- I think having him have this job would make him more motivated to like, do the things that will instigate Dean's action, which is the goal of the Zachariah.

C: That makes sense. This is very fun. I just feel I normally don't- I feel like Sam usually has an ability to be calm. But like, for this one, it's like, I guess it's just like, so irritating. And also like, I don't- Maybe, like, choosing to quit your job and start hunting is sort of a scary thing. So maybe if he's like, "If I do this in such a way, where like, it's literally impossible for me to ever come back, like, that'll be what really forces me into that lifestyle, and I want that."

G: I mean, he's annoyed, obviously. But again, as I've said, the picking up the fucking stick and like, putting the headphones down.

C: That's true. It's calculated.

G: It's done in such like, a calm- like, "I've thought it out, and I have decided that this is the logical conclusion to this thought process." [laughs] I think a part of it is just like, "I want to make- like, I have decided that I will do this thing already," and like, maybe burning bridges, as you said, like, "Let's just make it so that I can never come back." [C: Yeah.] Which I think is very Sam Winchester.

C: Yeah. Love that guy. Love that guy!

C: So now we get a whole long Dean scene that Sam never gets because they hate him, they hate him and want him to die. So Zachariah comes into Dean's office and, you know, is checking up on him and saying like, "Oh, I hear that you're really good at your job, and it's important to me that you're happy. So how's this for a bonus?" and he slips him a piece of paper. And he says it's because he wants to make sure Dean's not going anywhere, and that he sees big things in Dean's future, maybe even Senior VP, Eastern Great Lakes Division. And then he starts saying, like, "You'll have to work for it 7 days a week, lunch at your desk, but in 8 to 10 short years, that could be you," and it starts like zooming in on his mouth, or whatever I think, on like, "8 to 10 short years," and Dean's like, being like, "Oh, fuck! This actually suucks." Dean says, "Oh, well, thank you. But I am giving my notice. I have recently realized that I have some other work to do that's very important to me. This- it's just not who I'm supposed to be." And then Zachariah, who before this has just been like, "Oh, no no no, don't quit," he finally grins. And he goes, "Dean, Dean, Dean. Finally." And then he presses two fingers to his forehead, restores his memories, and the coloring of the episode gets less saturated.

G: Oh, I love it. I love it. [C: Yeah.] It's such a seamless transition, too. I love it.

C: Pretty fun.

G: Specifically, I forgot to mention it this entire episode. The coloring this episode really brings out Sam's green eyes [C: Yes!] in a way that is so terrifying to me, personally. [laughs]

C: 'Cause he should have beautiful brown eyes all the time.

G: He should have beautiful, wide, doe, puppy brown eyes, or whatever. [C: Yeah.] Dean says, "What the hell? Why am I wearing a tie? My god, am I hungry." Which, [C: We've discussed.] we've mentioned it earlier.

C: Dean's like, "Did I just get touched by an angel? Like, you're an angel, right?" And Zachariah introduces himself. Dean's annoyed, and Zachariah says that he is Castiel's superior.

G: Love it!

C: Hell yeah. This guy literally went to Cas and was like, "You're getting like, kind of homo with Dean Winchester. [laughing] I'm going to make him gay for real." He says that he had no interest in popping down here into "one of these smelly things," indicating his vessel, which is fun. I like the ways that angels interface with their vessels differently. He says that he's here to get all of his ducks in a row because of what happened with Uriel, and Dean is like, "Oh, so this was like, a lesson. Wow! Very creative." And Zachariah says, "You should see my decoupage," which is a craft where you like, glue together paper and like, gold leaf and other things. [G laughs] Which like, this is probably like, a joke, but also, I think it'd be so fun if he actually is like, an arts and crafts guy. [G: Exactly!] I think all the angels should have hobbies and interests up in Heaven. Like, Uriel's the funniest angel in the garrison, Zachariah's the most creative angel in the garrison!

G: Every couple eons, he has a workshop where [laughing] he teaches the angels how to do paper mache. [C: Yeah.] And it's a wonderful experience!

C: Yeah, in later years, like, they make Cas pinatas and then whack them with bats.

Dean says, "Gross, no thank you," which I think is a joke that decoupage sounds like- I don't know how you pronounce it. Decolletage? You know, the French- the whatever. The thing that means cleavage. So Dean asks if this was a hallucination, and Zachariah explains that no, this was a real place with a real haunting. He just put Dean in the middle of this without the benefit of his memories. And Dean says a sentence of all time. [laughs] He says, "Just so you guys can have fun watching us run around like ass clowns in monkey suits?" [both laughing]

G: [laughing] Yeah. Exactly.

C: Exactly.

G: You got it right on the money, buddy.

C: Zachariah says, "To prove to you that the path you're on is truly in your blood. You're a hunter. Not because your dad made you, not because God called you back from Hell, but because it is what you are, and you love it. You'll find your way to it in the dark every time, and you're miserable without it. Dean, let's be real here. You're good at this, you'll be successful, and you will stop this." What an interesting thing. Are we doing a breakdown?

G: Yes. [C: Okay.] I mean, some of it.

C: Okay. "The path you're on is truly in your blood." I mean-

G: Is a crazy thing to say, because- like, "You're a hunter, not because your dad made you, not because God called you back from Hell." And it's like, independently, these things can be true. I mean, they are. But the blood in question is also like, a Heavenly-crafted- like, that is manipulated by Heaven to be this way.

C: Yeah, they set up Mary and John.

G: Eons! "Eons." [laughs] That's not true. It's not that long. But like, generations of people were paired together, were, you know, like, lined up perfectly so that it will result to Sam and Dean with this exact blood, as they say. It's so insidious to be like, "It's in your blood" as something that is like, "It is natural to you, and it's like, you're fated to do it because of what is in your body" when, like, their very bodies, both him and Sam, are like, perfectly engineered to be this way. [C: Yeah.] It's fucking crazy.

C: It is pretty crazy.

G: Like, it's so insidious! I don't know. I mean, Supernatural is- again, like, multiple times, I've said I love like, concepts of fate and free will, right?

C: Yeah, they love doing it through biological determinism.

G: Supernatural is such an interesting show in the fate and free will part because it's like, the faith in question is like, it's not a divine calling. They really- they make it a point that, like, it really is like, a blood thing. Like, it's in your blood, which is- [laughs] I mean, lots of things we can say about that. But Supernatural, I think, doesn't really do a very good job of like, telling us that like, this is terrifying! To be in a situation like this, where you cannot even deny the inherentness of something about you because from the beginning of humanity, the intention of you being born this way with this exact physicality, exact makeup has already been decided. And, like, generations and generations of your family has been, you know, manufactured and engineered in this way so that you could exist in this way is like, that is like, horror. That's horror. [C: Yeah.] And having Zachariah say this specifically is like- I mean, like, obviously, like, you know, I know about the Cupid episode. I know that that's the case with Mary and John. It's just, this line, specifically. Like, when he said it, like, I literally got chills. I was like, "God, that's actually like, so fucking terrifying!"

C: Yeah. It's also the fact that he's talking about hunters like they're like, a separate species from humans. [G: Yeah.] Which is like, certainly interesting. And like, they do this in the fucking Winchesters, too, where, like, they also seem to view hunters as like, a separate species from humans, which is why, like, the villain wants to kill all humans, because they're like, oppressing hunters by like, needing to be rescued or whatever the fuck. [both laugh] Crazy show. And that is interesting. And it also like, I don't know, it reminds me of, like, the whole, like, military families thing where, like, the largest predictor of someone joining the military is another family member being in the military, and how like, that's often treated as like, a higher calling, as well as like- I mean, there's the biological component as in like, if you like, take certain fitness tests, they'll be like, "You are meant to be in the military. Like, these are like, the physical assets you have, and you're like, wasting them by like, not joining us to like, murder people." [both laugh] So like, yeah, I think that's an interesting component of it.

The next thing that I find interesting is "Not because God called you back from Hell." So Zachariah fully believes the orders are from God. We've seen like, different angel attitudes on this. Zachariah has faith. So that's neat.

G: Also, I do genuinely think God called Dean back from Hell [C: Oh, yeah.], just because we know who God is, and he would do that.

C: "You're miserable without it." "You love it, and you're miserable without it."

G: The thing is like, "you love it" and "you're miserable without it" are like, [C: Different.] those are not, those are different things. You can be miserable without something and still be miserable with it. Does Dean love hunting? Like, again, like, it's complicated. Like, aspects of it you can love, and then aspects of it are so terrible, too. So like, yeah.

C: Yeah. Is he miserable without it, though? Like, we see Season 6, and I feel like what I see of like, the opening to Season 6, it's just like, "Guy's got PTSD." Are we supposed to think like, misses hunting and wants to go back?

G: I don't think that at all. [C: Okay.] Season 6, not at all.

C: That's also Sera Gamble, isn't it?

G: Yeah, Season 6 and 7, Sera Gamble. And that episode specifically is Sera Gamble. [C: Mm-hm.] I mean, the next line is, "Let's be real here. You're good at this. You'll be successful." [C: "You will stop it."] The way it's ordered is like, "You love it. You're miserable without it. You're good at it. You're gonna be successful." The implication there, it's like, the one leads to the other and then leads to the other and then leads to the other. Again, it's so insidious. Like, Zachariah is such a good like, evil character, 'cause like, he's well-spoken. 'Cause I think with- Well, Cas is not of this mindset with Dean. He'll never say these kinds of things to Dean. Uriel kinda does-

C: Uriel's mostly just like, "Well, you have to listen to us because you have to."

G: Yeah, like, Uriel doesn't understand, like, the concept of like, getting into Dean's head because he doesn't think it's worth it. Like, Uriel thinks Dean is below him, and it's like, "Whatever. I can make him follow anyway. It doesn't matter." But like, Zachariah understands Dean's psyche and like, is able to get deep in there. And I mean, like, towards the end of this episode, like, as his words continue- okay, let's let's do the words. So like, yeah, "You will stop it." Dean asks for clarification. Like, "Is it the Apocalypse? What are you talking about?"

C: Yeah, or Lucifer? And he goes, "You'll do everything you're destined to do. All of it. [G: Hell yeah.] But I know, I know. You're not strong enough. You're scared. You've got daddy issues. You can't do it. Right?" And Dean, like, gets angry. But Zachariah says, "All I'm saying is, it's how you look at it. Most folks live and die without moving anything more than the dirt it takes to bury them. You get to change things. Save people, maybe even the world. All the while, you drive a classic car and fornicate with women. This isn't a curse. It's a gift. So, for God's sake, Dean, quit whining about it." He says, "Look around. There are plenty of fates worse than yours. So are you with me? You want to go steam yourself another latte, or are you ready to stand up and be who you really are?" What a guy! What a speech.

G: What a speech! And like, the last part is, like, "This is actually good for you, 'cause like, you're living behind a legacy or whatever. You're actually doing things instead of just quote 'doing things.' [C: Yeah.] And you're gonna look so cool while doing it!"

C: Yeah, you get to be a straight hunter, as we said. [G: Yeah.] "This isn't a curse, it's a gift." What the hell?

G: The thing is like, these are words that Dean has like, expressed at some point, right? Is it "Bugs"? He's like, "Oh, look at these suburban people! I can never live like this. Actually, our lives, that's the good one. Like, these guys are like, just being whatever." Dean would say those things, either because he believes it or he wants to believe it due to like, an insecurity he has about his life right? And so Zachariah being able to recognize that and then tapping into it and like, feeding into those like, thought process that Dean has used to justify his life in the past, [C: Yeah.] to be able to continue justifying this is like- It's good! It's so good! [C: Yeah.] He really said, "I will get into your head, boy." And then he did. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, I do still think it's crazy that he said like, "Look around at these people working in an office. Their lives are way worse than your life." [G: Yeah.] Like, are we sure?

G: There's the aspect of Supernatural where it's like, is Supernatural trying to convince us that this is true?

C: Yeah. I don't know. It's so interesting that they think there's only two ways to live your life.

G: Yeah, obviously, but what is the-

C: Do they think- like, is the audience supposed to think-

G: What is the message trying to be said, yeah. What are we supposed to think here?

C: I haven't really thought about it before, but is Supernatural escapism for some people sometimes? Like, "I wish I was a hunter instead of my current life." Like, probably, I guess.

G: Yeah, probably. Yeah.

C: So I guess this is just for those people, right? Like, "Well, you're right."

G: I think about this, and like, the way the statement is worded, too, is like, it goes from like, "You'll save the world" and then it's like, "And you specifically are gonna have, like, some form of like, glory, or whatever in your life." I think about like- you've read Song of Achilles? [C: Yeah.] The Madelyn Miller, whatever. I think about the fact there, that, like, I don't know why I'm quoting this instead of- [laughs] No, but like, specifically the way they like, paint it in that book specifically, like, the prophecy is like, "You're either going to fulfill your prophecy, or if you don't fulfill your prophecy, the alternative is, you'll just die of old age. Like, you'll just have a normal life, and you'll fade into obscurity, you'll die of old age, whatever." And like, obviously, it's different for Dean, because, like, it's like, "The world will end or you do this," you know. And like, the pressure for Dean is like, a lot more intense than like, a king telling you you should do this because, like, these are like, angels who have, like, actual like, powers and everything. But I do think about the fact that, in that book, they make it a point to show that, like, Achilles does frequently think that, like, "I had no choice in the matter. It's a prophecy! I had no choice," even though, like, he was told, like, early on, that like, "No, actually, you do have a choice. It's either die in glory or live like, a normal life, and you chose the die in glory, but you're making it seem like there was no choice. 'Cause like, it feels like the normal life isn't even a choice at all." And I think about that, and I think about Dean, and Dean's attitude towards hunting does fluctuate a lot. But yeah, I don't know, the fact that a big part of the advertisement to being a hunter and living your fate for him is "You can look cool doing it." That's crazy to me.

C: [laughs] Yeah. Like in the movies.

G: Like in the movies. [laughing] Isn't it so funny that the episode that we're like, "And we care enough about Dean to talk about his character in depth" is the one where like-

C: He's not him.

G: - he's very little, does not have his memories, is not himself. [C: Yeah.] Oh, Dean.

C: I mean, he's a lot more likable in "Yellow Fever" also.

G: Yeah, we're gonna have a field day in like, "Remembering Dean."

C: Oh, yeah!

G: Well, anyway, what do we think about this episode? I think it's neat.

C: I liked it. Even though like, [laughs] almost the entire point of it is homophobia.

G: Best Line/Worst Line. Can I just choose like, Zachariah's entire speech?

C: Zachariah's whole speech? Sure.

G: Well, because I also am thinking about the Sam speech.

C: Yeah, that was my second choice.

G: "This isn't you. I know you." really gets to me. And then Zachariah's entire speech is wonderful. "GMILF" is pretty funny. [both laugh]

C: Best line of this episode!

G: I mean, they don't even have any women in this episode. And like, the only mention of a woman is GMILF. [both laughing] Mimi, right?

C: Yeah. Well.

G: Can we put that as a misogyny point?

C: Maybe. I mean, the guy's supposed to be sleazy. I don't know. Maybe. But yeah, I think I liked when Sam quoted Bruce Springsteen that "I don't like my job. I don't like this town. I don't like my clothes. I don't like my own last name. It feels like I should be doing something else. There's just something in my blood."

G: He said, "I don't like my clothes. I don't like my face. My hair's fine, though." [C laughs] And it literally is fine.

C: Yeah, yeah. It is whatever color pleases God. And it literally is. I mean he chose that shit, probably, Chuck did.

G: Exactly. Worst line? I think Sam's like, "Dude!" when Ian started pocketing the [C laughs] office supplies.

C: Don't be such a dick, Sam. Um, I mean, yeah-

G: You see that shit, you just go, "Hm." You do a little giggle, even, if you're in the mood. And then, yeah, you're done.

C: I think I was bothered by Dean's line about not going to the gym because of how I took it, and I also thought that Ian's whole making fun of Sam for his dream stuff was also like, overdone. So I guess those are the two major negative moments.

G: Well, spread those sheets.

C: Spread those sheets. Let's see. Misogyny, it is weird that, like, no women work in this office. [laughs] But it's not a real-

G: No, but the thing is, when there's no like, people of color in the episode, we 0 it.

C: Yeah. So it's probably the same thing.

G: I still am not super comfy with the fact that we do that. [C: Yeah.] I mean, there should be something. Like, you can't just keep getting away with it [C laughs] because you don't involve people of color in your show.

C: Well, sometimes they're racist without people of color being there, like in "Houses of the Holy." [G laughs]

G: Exactly. Okay, so let's just 0 the misogyny and racism in this one?

C: Sure, yeah. Homophobia.

G: I think we should give it a 5.

C: Are we- okay. All the way there?

G: 4, maybe.

C: Yeah, I would say 3 or 4.

G: I think this is a 4 or 5.

C: Yeah, okay, it is intrinsic to the episode. That part is true.

G: It's very intrinsic.

C: Okay. I think a 4 makes sense. Yeah. Wow! Is this our first 4?

G: I think so. Ever? With anything. I think we were never really like, going above-

C: A three in the past, yeah. Plus, we've only been doing this kind of scale for two seasons. Like, before that, we were just doing Dean individual points, yeah. Well, there we are.

G: There we are, then.

C: IMDb. This is enjoyed, I'm assuming. It's famous.

G: Oh, for sure. But do we think it's higher than "On the Head of a Pin"?

C: No, I don't think it's that.

G: I don't think it is, but I think it should be.

C: Huh. Bold words.

G: Bold words. I'll give this a 9. [C: Okay] I think this is a 9.0.

C: I think it's a little bit lower than that. I think it's an 8.9. But maybe I'm lying. Well, hit me with the truth.

G: Let's see. It's an 8.6.

C: Oh, that's low.

G: Much lower than I thought. Why is that?

C: Yeah, it's the same as "Death Takes a Holiday." Are people like, "Dean wouldn't do that." [laughs]

G: This one's called it topical.

C: This one calls it an unnecessary story.

G: This one called it-

C: "- a rebuke of late capitalism and a social satire piece." Huh.

G: "Not revolutionary or anything, but one of the more politically overt episodes." I mean, it is true.

C: It is one of the more politically overt episodes, I suppose.

G: In that they exist in a world where-

C: They mentioned the economy one time, yeah. [both laugh] This person said that they didn't like that the Ghostfacers were going to come back. That's so sad. Ghostfacers are great.

G: This one says, "You have to dial up the suspension of disbelief. Just watch it. Don't think about it."

C: What? I loved thinking about it.

G: I love to think about it. Obviously, this person has never had a podcast [C laughs] where they talk about and think about an episode in depth for multiple hours.

C: Yeah. This person says that the pre-credit sequence is too long. Well, no, it's not. [laughs] It's very important to have this AMV.

G: This one calls it "greatest filler episode so far." [C: It's not a filler.] I would not call this filler, like, at all.

C: I guess they don't know about the Michael plot is the thing. So like, the Zachariah shit, I feel like it's enhanced a lot by knowing what Dean's ultimate fate is. I think if you don't know that, you're like, "Okay, he's being dramatic."

G: Yeah, well. That’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 18: "Monster at the End of this Book." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts. C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. G: Also like, we're probably gonna be putting up our like, post-episode like, whatever on Ko-Fi now, 'cause it's too long. [C laughs] We've been making episodes that are incredibly long. [C: Yeah.] Just so it doesn't fuck too terribly with the runtime. You can email us at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

#transcript

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