#they also do this with ollie but i've read a bit less of the arrows

[milowing]

i hate when people--especially dc writers-- act like damian is bruce's only child "i have a son" "he's become a father"

bruce doesn't have a son, he has four, and a daughter. bruce didn't become a father the day damian was born, he became a father when he realized that he needed to help a little boy who wanted revenge for his murdered parents. dick grayson was introduced in detective comics #38 in april of 1940. that's 11 months, 11 issues, and 11 appearances after bruce wayne was first introduced. that's years before alfred, or barbara, or the first batman and superman interaction. batman has been a father since before the idea of extended superhero universes existed. this is not new, and the idea that it is is frankly insulting, not only to the character, not only to the fans, but to anyone who's ever had family they are not blood-related to.

[bitimdrake]

how would you describe arrowfamily in canon? Cause i have seen conflicting things ranging from "Oliver Queen is a terrible horrible person" to "canon arrowfamily is what people think batfam should be like/if you want fanon batfam you want canon arrowfam" and it is confusing

Disclaimer first. A full, proper, arrowfam read-through is next on my list once I finally catch up with the bats, but I haven't gotten there yet. I have still read a whole bunch of comics, and by virtue of how the DC universe works, I've seen a fair bit of the arrows scattered throughout. (In particular, I've read a lot of Roy via Titans and Outsiders.)

So I can give a broad strokes answer here, but I'm not going to try to claim a deep meta analysis of the arrows yet.

I think the quickest way to explain the contradictory information is this:

batfam fans take up most of the space in DC fandom

for whatever reason, it has become highly popular bat fanon to use Oliver Queen as a scapegoat Designated Terrible Dad to show how much better and cooler and nicer Bruce is.

This is not a fair or accurate depiction of Ollie.

(Nor, for that matter, an accurate depiction of Bruce, but that fanon diversion is intentional and less like throwing shrapnel at a guy who isn't even part of this.)

People who actually read comics and like Ollie therefore try to push back on this extreme and ooc demonization of him, and also vaunt the arrows in general.

Said pushback is sometimes an exaggerated overcompensation.

Basically, no, Oliver Queen is not a terrible horrible person, nor even a terrible horrible father.

And I would say the canon arrows are a lot closer to what fans are desperately trying to find (or just make up) in the bats. There are various things that are true of the canon arrows/Ollie and of the fanon bats/Bruce that are not true of the canon bats/Bruce. [All post-crisis disclaimer.] Examples:

Ollie is outspokenly liberal and this is a well accepted piece of his canon characterization. (Meanwhile DC writers try very very hard to make Bruce Totally Apolitical and therefore acceptable to all readers. Not that anything is ever actually apolitical.)

Ollie also hates cops! And rich people! For a significant chunk of comics, he lost his fortune and was better off for it, realizing he could never be truly good if he were still a billionaire.

The common fan argument about how Bruce totally isn't abusive; he's a good dad who's just been written that way once or twice by bad writers is...actually not that far off from describing Ollie? He hit Roy once in a comic about How Not To Respond To Addiction; in another comic he was revealed to have secretly known about and abandoned Conner, despite this not lining up with previous comics showing how he really wanted to be a dad. Both of these things are canon and bad, no doubt! But he is also usually a lot better, and has shown an ability to grow and change. (Meanwhile canon Bruce just has a consistent pattern of abuse.)

Subjective, but Ollie seems to really think of himself as a father and delight in it in a way that Bruce just kinda...doesn't.

All the arrows, from what I can tell, actually like each other.

They don't try to murder each other either.

But, as you surely notice, being closer to batfanon desires doesn't mean the arrows literally are the fanon batfam. Like the bats, they are not a perfect model nuclear family (nor should they be!). They too have had conflict and dysfunction (Roy and Oliver stopped talking for a significant period of time!). And they do indeed exist in a comic book world driven by crime and superheroics and conflict, not a fluffy fanfiction world driven by comfort and interpersonal reassurances. (This is not a dunk on fanfic, which I love, just a reminder).

so tl;dr, the arrows aren't a perfectly fluffy fanon family either...but if you see a batfam fan throwing Ollie/other arrows under the bus to make their fave look better, that is definitely bullshit.

[clay-cuttlefish]

Back to this. I got sidetracked jumping around the spreadsheet and adding some random stuff, but hopefully I should hit the first Renee appearances tomorrow. I also have to track down a version of Death in the Family that has the foreword - it's by Tot and mentions Vic, and was mentioned in the letter column for 28, so it should fit somewhere in this chunk of issues on the spreadsheet.

Question #18

Here he is! I love Ollie and Vic's dynamic. They are so fascinating and so annoying.

You know you've fucked up when Ollie's calling you a dumbass.

I like how much breathing room this issue has. They get a lot of space to talk and highlight each other, which is a great foundation for the later GA crossovers.

Of the unsubtle 80s anti-gun GA stuff I've read (which isn't a lot but it's more than 0) this is one of the less interesting bits. At least it's short.

The panel composition on this issue is really well done. Making two guys talking in a truck into a pair of pages that make me pause to take them in is impressive.

#19

Vic choosing to get the doll fixed is a really strong moment.

Overall, the way Augie is treated is surprisingly good? It's definitely played for creepiness at first, but he's just a guy living a surprisingly decent life for Hub City, Vic tries to actually help him and doesn't judge him for being delusional, and he ends up totally fine.

The parallel between Vic's mask and Myra's makeup, and her choice to discard it, is just. Waugh. She's just as dedicated to trying to figure out the right thing as he is, but she's not hiding any of it!

Myra kissing Maurice is still a very weird moment.

Detective Comics - Fables part 1

Spectacularly terrible opening, 0/10.

It's so weird to see the Penguin after this long of a stretch without supervillains. Yeah Talia shows up first but she's way less gimmicky and the page is pretty calm. He's here in full force with the monocle and bird jokes.

Shiva <333

I don't believe for a fucking second that asking Vic is the best way Shiva can think of to find Batman. I really like it, don't get me wrong. Vic's hacker exposition about making a post on the internet is hilarious, calling Batman Pointy-Ears is hilarious, "Matins" is such a Catholicism Moment, it's good stuff. I just think this is way less likely to work than going to Gotham and punching cops until Batman shows up.

Oh my god this is such a stupid villain plot. What do you mean it doesn't affect people with high testosterone. What do you mean Bruce already knows what it is. Why does Ra's have that. Why would that be the effect you choose for this story.

I'm sure this Bruce and Talia plot is better when read in context but it's still some excellent drama. Love them.

...gender?

Green Arrow - Fables part 2

The overarching plot of Fables isn't good, the O-Sensei is a boring Orientalist stereotype, but all of the subplots are very strong examples of why I care about each series. Scrap the whole O-Sensei thing in the first two issues and just have it be Shiva picking fights and finding people to help someone she knows and it'd be better.

Dinahollie <3

I love getting to see Shiva doing her thing. She's so chill, it's fun to see her in her element :)

Dinahshiva <3

Shiva loves to put some weird little freak in a situation and see if it makes them better or worse, and it sucks she doesn't get to do that anymore.

Question - Fables part 3

All of these issues have great looks for Shiva. Style icon.

Hey, Vic's terrible secret identity came back to bite him!

"Van der Waal's equation" isn't complete technobabble - the Van der Waal's force is a decent explanation for a multi-use adhesive, at least by comic book standards, and would explain why the mask never seems "sticky" and why the chemistry on getting it to stay is so finicky.

It's interesting that Vic doesn't even try to get Shiva to not kill people. He might be self-sacrificing, but he's not that dumb.

Oh my god Bruce you are such a dramatic bitch.

I kinda see what they were going for with the O-Sensei here, at least. Still think it'd be better if he wasn't a ridiculous legendary fighter.

Drowning motif! Shiva's perspective is so interesting - she's able to do anything she puts the effort into, and she expects that to be true of everyone else.

#20

The cover layout is unique this issue, which is a neat touch.

I always like that characters get to say stuff that's sort of dumb. Vic no-selling Myra's joke about boomerang rocks is a nice reminder that they do really like and feel comfortable around each other, even when things are rough.

Honestly not a ton to say about this issue. It makes its point well, I like it.

In the letter pages: the return of Hair Discourse.

#21

This plotline's back!

He just like me fr (misreading signals on a date, resisting the urge to deck his high school classmates)

Seriously though, it's nice to get a look into Vic's very normal problems. Not everything wrong with him is related to being the Question.

This is one of my favourite single issues. I can't quite put words on why - everything about it just works, and there's nothing about it that I want to pick at.

#22

Election Day is the best arc in the run.

The opening spread is full of excellent expressions - Wesley's really lean into the more distorted and exaggerated end of Cowan's art, while Myra's are all subtle, exhausted frustration. I appreciate that she's consistently drawn with sunken cheeks and eye bags.

Maurice getting to be serious is a strong moment. He's been a good source of banter for Myra before this, so having him get invested and take the consequences seriously is a good way to ground the stakes, and to give Myra someone who's genuinely on her side without having to rely on Vic.

It's interesting that Shiva pays close enough attention to what Vic's up to on a regular basis that she'd know who to send. Even when she's not around, she still gets to drive the story.

#23

This issue got me the first time I read it. The history flashback is a weird choice, but it sets the tone perfectly, and the time constantly being shown is a throwback to the first issue that makes it feel super tense. So much of the series has long time skips, waiting to heal or get phone calls or for anything to happen, but now every minute counts. The news reports punctuating it work so well.

Vic dropping everything when he reads Tot's name is so...

Myra goes off, and she damn well deserves it. The difference in how her expressions feel between this and the opening of #22 is a testament to Cowan's work.

The quoting of a line from five pages ago is maybe a little unnecessary. These panels would stand perfectly well on their own.

#24

It's hard to make a deus ex machina feel "earned", but if anything does, it's this.

Kind of a dumb thing but who tells this story with a beaver? I'm not losing it, right, it's the Scorpion and the Frog?

The historical flashback turning out in Myra's favor is a fantastic bit of subversion. When I first read this, I was certain that Wesley was going to shoot Myra during the blackout, and Dinsmore dying and Myra talking about how bad winning felt made me lower my guard and think he might kill himself publicly instead. Funny how that works.

I didn't catch what he meant until the next issue on my first read (in my defence, I'm not American) but wow Wesley's not subtle about his assassination plans to anyone. I mean, I caught that much, but he's really not subtle.

Myra and Vic's relationship makes me want to explode. I just want them to be happy together! Aaaaa!

#25

Everything happens so much. The pace just does not let up.

Vic falls into bad habits, again, but he does a better job staying focused and not letting the anger take over - it's good development.

Wesley's death is everything the shitty racist cop issue fails to be. He's a sad, awful little man with a broken moral compass and a lot of enablers, and he dies refusing to recognize it.

The letters column: a woman wrote in a while back about how male comic fans are creeps and Vic still has some personal growth to do when it comes to being less sexist, and some men are being freaks about it. These fuckers haven't changed in thirty years.

#26

If I ignore the part of my brain that hates this as a Riddler story and pretend he's an OC, it's a fine breather issue. Unfortunately I am bad at doing that.

Some very caricature-y guest art this issue. It's a neat look in some panels, and sometimes it's more subtle, but a lot of it is scrungled enough that I can't take what's happening seriously.

this is Vic and Tot in the car, to me

Love that Tot takes stopping Vic from self-destructing into his own hands, and that Vic bitches but doesn't do anything stupid to try and stop him.

The idea of Vic chewing out the Riddler with more difficult questions is an interesting idea, but I don't love the effect of him monologuing about a bunch of pretty standard ~deep~ questions and well known koans, and the Riddler just going "yeah i'm afraid of those" is dumb.

I dunno - it feels like a bit of a waste for the one time Vic faces an established villain to be so meh. I like Sphinx, at least, and the reappearance of the drowning motif is cool.

#27

The weirdest issue, I think.

I really like all the Vic sections, and I'm not opposed to meta shit, but this is pretty jarring. Tot's weird cousin and his racist magic is not helping the tone of the Ditko callback.

I like that Tot has a weird cousin who was a bad comic artist. He has connections outside of Vic, they're just also weird as hell.

The Ditko callback is great. "You gotta pull me up." "Why?", and then the slow drop before Vic grabs him? Mwah. Perfect. I'm a sucker for this shit. Even when he's falling into bad habits, he's still a better person than he used to be!

#28

Shiva :)

Vic responding to Tot telling him not to lie to himself by suddenly gaining sunglasses kills the mood a bit, but it's also very good. What is wrong with him.

Myra wakes up from a coma, ditches the hospital, and immediately makes a very risky plan. Good for her.

Everyone's in top form this issue, it's great.