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bugsbenefit · 2 years

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what is UP with Alice Creel?

okay finally going into what i talked about here, what is Alice Creels deal? i'm ignoring any theories that Alice Creel is actually Karen Wheeler or any other character we know for this and just purely focus on Alice the way we see her in the flashbacks. because i've been thinking about the general oddness of Alice Creel for way too long (in a numbered list format because i like those and they're easier to keep track of *heart*)

as a quick overview:

1.) Alice is paralleled to Henry. Why though?

2.) the reason these parallels are so weird

3.) the death of Alice Creel - or more specifically WHEN does Alice Creel die? the timeline is WHACK

4.) "so... what? Alice is coming back to tell her story? she's dead."

here we go ->

1.) Alice is paralleled to Henry. Why though?

Alice has an odd amount of contrast to her brother given that we only see her in the Creel flashbacks. she has More screen time than Virginia, but still, she's a side character that seems to serve the main purpose of getting killed by Henry. they're siblings but the main relationship we know them by is murderer and murder victim, so them getting compared on a narrative level feels a bit misguided given their power and story-importance imbalance

some of the most eye caching contrasts:

1.1.) the Angel and the Demon

firstly, this was something that i thought was actually pretty straight forward on the show when Victor first mentioned it and was then surprised when they didn't make it explicit. Victor Creel begins telling his story and he's a very religious man, attributing the display of powers to a supernatural demon. and he's not wrong about something going on, he just doesn't realise it's his son doing it, so the religious imagery becomes a place holder for Henry. we know Henry is the demon. if they mention the demon? Henry!

but then it gets weird when we're suddenly introduced to a second religious figure. the Angel. the angel that saves him from the demon no less. the demon is a real person but the angel is just the radio? sure, maybe. but Victor was actually right in identifying the demon, he just put the wrong name on it, him identifying another religious entity in his house right after doesn't really give us any reason to believe he's wrong this time around. you can make the argument that the singer, Ella Fitzgerald, is the angel. but random singer vs evil superpowerd child feels much more impersonal than sister vs brother. Max let the music guide her and was ultimately saved by her friends calling out to her and her memories of them. sure, Victor's favourite 60s singer could have solely saved him from Henry by randomly playing on the radio, right place right time for once on this show i guess, but from a story writing perspective it's incredible anticlimactic

1.2.) and on this topic of music. WHY is there even music?

the radio plays right before Virginia dies and it is Victor's favourite song "Dream a little Dream" that's on. but after grabbing the children and running into the hall we can't hear the radio anymore. he tries to exit the building, falls into his vision, walks around a bit, and only THEN begins to hear the song again. so why does he even hear it in the first place? you could make the argument that not much time has passed and that the radio is just still playing, but that contradicts what we see on screen. we can't hear the radio outside the dining room. had it been the radio, why does it take a solid minute in his vision before he randomly starts hears it again? if that's not enough, Henry also messes with the radio channels right before killing Virginia so the chance of the station randomly ending back on "Dream a little Dream" is incredible small in and of itself. and on top of all of that: the music is also Gone when he snaps out of his vision. if it truly was the radio that saved him he would still be hearing it afterwards. but he doesn't

so whatever allowed Victor to hear the song that night, it was definitely not thanks to the radio that he couldn't hear and that wasn't even playing the right station anymore

and then there is also the weird connection made between Alice and Dreams in one of the few verbal lines we get from the flashbacks that aren't narrated by either Victor or Henry:

this line serves no purpose, we learn nothing new except that she likes the house which we could already tell by her attitude. the phrasing is also a bit clunky. however, she now just randomly name dropped dreams for no greater narrative purpose we know of. and she does so TWICE because this is one of the only scenes we get in full in both Henry's AND Victor's flashback

1.3.) then there's the general parallel

in fiction you'll find the trope of the paralleled siblings quite often. one is a nerd the other a jock. goth and prep. popular and loser. stereotypical girly girl and himbo guy. good twin evil twin. the list goes on. and despite Alice seemingly having no greater importance to the narrative than to die we get parallels between her and her evil superpowered brother as well:

we get lines like "sweet innocent Alice" while Henry sits in his spider attic trying to haunt her dreams

and while Henry has his dark closed off attic space we see him mostly in, we see Alice outside (playing like a normal child) in the open air playground on a slide looking like a rocket for some reason

and Alice being backlit even stronger than Will in the van scenes himself while finding the dead rabbit her brother just killed

you can definitely read these two as being opposite coded. Alice being good (not murderous) and also conforming to expectations, not standing out clothing wise like Henry, not trying to break the space-time-continuum because she's scared of societies expectations. being seen as sweet. (which okay to be fair, Victor also thought Henry was sweet so maybe he's not the best judge of character and she could have also been super mean but we'll just go with it for now) and then Henry being the "evil" sibling out to hurt people. who can't conform and then decides to break out of his role (which results in the family murder day). but all this just raises the question again why these two uneven characters even get paralleled to begin with. Alice is just the sister he kills, she's in no way on an equal level to him as far as we know so why does she get to stand as his opposite narratively?

1.4.) and the arguably most on the nose parallel of all

which actually convinced me that there was something going on on my first watch-through -> they fall mirrored behind their father. they face each other, both with their arms bracing the ground bellow. had they fallen any different (as in, had Henry just fallen straight backwards like he already did before dipping sideways for some reason) no one would think anything of it. but alas, they DID fall the same and now were here

i'm serious this is weird, we're back to them being paralleled and put on an equal level despite the fact that they couldn't be further apart in story relevance, power, and character depth, as far as we know. that's the classic, good sibling evil sibling, yin and yang imagery

(also ignore the image quality pls, i had screenshots and didn't want to go back to get a better one, so you're getting a cropped one sorry u.u)

2.) the reason these parallels are so weird

i talked about this here before. essentially, when analysing film, you obviously look at what you see on screen, that's what you're working with. but in any analysis it's almost More important to ask yourself WHY you're seeing it and didn't get any alternative imagery of the infinite possibilities that could be used to convey the scene. because this always tells you the most about the intention and focus of the writers/directors

as an example: why is the scene in the pizza freezer shot at such a weird angle? they could have done that Any other way. we could have seen the character from behind and had everyone in frame. we could have actually seen El's face. etc. Answer: we didn't get any of the alternative options because they wanted Will to be in frame, he's directly involved in the delivery of the monologue and even prompts it. we don't see Everyone, we don't see El's face. the angle is there because Will's face needs to be in frame

essentially, movie doesn't happen on it's own and parallels are hard to make, you have to pay attention when writing AND shooting AND acting AND editing, etc. they rarely happen on their own or on accident. so now let's apply this to the Creels:

why did Alice even have the weird clunky line about the house being like a dream when we already saw her be excited to move in? why did they spend screentime writing a line that tells in addition to already showing, that's incredibly unnecessary? (not even mentioning that we get the line Twice from both Victor's AND Henry's story. at this point it feels important, because no other lines get repeated like this)

why do they lie on the ground in the same way? Henry was in a prime position of landing on his back when he started falling, but somehow he ends up on his side instead? if any of them were facing in the other direction, were lying on their back, or just had their arms sprawled out wider they wouldn't mirror anymore. but as it is, even the angle their legs have is identical. why would they shoot it like this? why does Henry suddenly parallel his presumed victim? he's a murderous psychic, why is he mirrored to his normal sister here? there were endless ways for them to fall that wouldn't have made them parallel each other and yet here we are

and (almost most important of all imo) why does Henry even have a sister? as in, what narrative benefit is there? to make the Creel's fit more in the nuclear family picture with two instead of one child? maybe, but you still have to work with the characters you add, why does she have so little to do? Victor survives and becomes our narrator. Virginia is the first victim of Henry and antagonised him in life. Alice is... his sister. if they didn't have any role for her to play they could have just excluded her, only-child families existed in the 60s and would still perfectly work with the narrative. so why IS there a sister in the house? to show that Henry just became weird on his own and that his sister managed to turn out alright despite them sharing parents and living in the same house? well, yeah maybe, but now we're already back at the good vs evil sibling set up that directly pits Alice and Henry against each other in a parallel. and you could argue that she was there to make the torment and murder of his family more severe and shocking. except that the only thing we see of her is her waking up from a nightmare and finding the dead rabbit, both things we could have also gotten from the parents and didn't actually need a whole new character for. AND WE DON'T EVEN SEE HER DIE so that's completely wasted the potential of making the murder night seem more brutal or cruel

and actually about that, let's get to the big thing...

3.) the death of Alice Creel - or more specifically WHEN does Alice Creel die? the timeline is WHACK

here we go. the weird part. everything else until now was analysis about the purpose of her character, weird framing and narrative choices, and odd parallels. but now we get to the big thing that genuinely doesn't make sense

why don't we see Alice die on screen?

Virginia died in less than 5 seconds. it's quick since we didn't even see her vision, similar to Patrick. Virginia's death was the fastest we see on the show and we actually see it Twice, both from Victors And Henry's flashback. so why didn't we get a three second shot of Alice falling to the ground in either of the visions? it's a small detail but the more you actually look into it the more nonsensical it gets

we saw all 4 curse victims die. we saw Virginia die (twice). and Henry does kill fast making it a non-screen-time-eater. if they wanted to be original and not show another body hit the ground. why didn't they verbally mention it instead? Henry doesn't even say "and then after i killed my sister i tried to get my dad too". Alice is completely left out of the narrative after Henry begins his familicide mission. we see her suddenly lying unmoving on the floor at some point but we don't see OR hear how she got there - we just have to assume from context clues that it was Henry who did it. which is odd considering Henry only had 3 family members, two of which he killed, but somehow that was too much to show so we just skip it and see one of them die twice instead?

that's all already weird. but there is a bit of an explanation why we don't see it happen. it's because neither Victor OR Henry actually see it happen themselves...

let's look at what happened with Alice as far as we can follow. neither Victor's nor Henry's vision are ever shown to be incorrect. even what we see from Victor only gets backed up later, he's just lacking a literal angle to look at his son. so. what's Alice up to? and when does she end up on the ground?

well from Victor's flashback we learn that she's fine when Victor goes into his vision

this is less than a second before Victor breaks through the door and falls into the vision. (note Henry being ominously cropped because Victor is biased and we only learn how fucked up and responsible for this Henry is later on) however, we DO see Alice and she looks upset, but fine overall. standing upright, nothing broken, no blood, no possessed Vecna eyes, no levitating. and given that even Virginia's speed killing took roughly 5 seconds she is fine when Victor's vision starts a second later

but then Victor snaps out of his vision after hearing his favourite song, turns around, and both his children are on the ground now

so. we can infer, Alice died sometime during Victor's vision. she was fine less than a second before he went into it. she was dead when he came out of it. fair enough. of course we didn't see her die in Victor's version of events because he was literally in a trance when she died, makes sense so far

except now we have a problem because how did Henry actually kill her? for real this time. it's no longer just a "why didn't we see it happen"? it's a genuine "how DID this happen?"- because Henry SUCKS as multi tasking with powers! canonically!

that's what leads to him getting flambeed in s4 to begin with. Henry closes his eyes and has to focus to channel his powers. we see it when he does as little as manipulate a clock, then he grows stronger and still needs to close his eyes and zone out when he kills Virginia. he keeps getting stronger with every victim but we even see it years later when he kills as Vecna. despite seeming much stronger, he STILL can't multi task. in order to even just see into someone's mind he has to motionlessly suspend himself in his attic (like a rip off of El's sensory deprivation tanks tbh) and while he visits people he's completely tuned out of his body, making him vulnerable to attacks when the teens visit him in the UD

however, we're left with a situation here where Alice actively died DURING Victor's vision that Henry was actively inflicting on him. which means that Henry killed her while Also trying to kill his father at the same time. so. how did he do that? especially when much stronger adult Henry failed to even have basic awareness of his surroundings when he was in Max's head? and Henry is only 12 in the flashbacks canonically, he's much Much weaker, he also just straight up falls into a coma after struggling to kill his father when the song is making it harder for him. he literally almost died himself here. but he also somehow killed his sister quickly in between without Victor ever escaping the vision???

and when we finally get Henry's pov of that night we still don't see anything clearing Alice's death up. Virginia dies, we cut to the moment right before Victor snaps out of the vision, and then zoom in over Alice who's already on the ground and turn around to look at Henry who's incredibly focused with his eyes closed as he tries to kill Victor. (odd shot choice considering we learn Nothing about Alice here except an acknowledgement of the timeline that yep, she's on the ground again) moments later Henry falls into the coma

Alice was alive as Victor's vision started and on the ground at the latest very shortly before it ended. so again. WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?

we already saw enough victims die. we got sped up versions like with Virginia and Patrick where we didn't even have to see the visions. so why did they deem it unnecessary to show us Alice die? did they just forget to have Henry mention he killed her? and what's up with the timeline because as it stands her death is actually impossible:

alive as Henry enters Victor's mind to induce the vision -> unclear what happens as we follow Henry and Victor into the vision -> on the ground seconds before Henry falls into a coma -> dead?

so the only natural conclusion for her death is that... Henry killed her in his first and only feet of successful multi-tasking which we didn't get to see for some reason, and he also never manages to replicate even when teenagers were shooting shotguns at him years later? the timeline makes no sense the way it's presented. Henry would have been physically incapable of killing her Virginia style while fully out of it and focused on his father the way he was. there is either something to Henry's powers we haven't seen yet that allowed him to do this or a whole aspect of that night that we haven't seen yet

but this unanswered question about the timeline that just raises more and more questions actually does answer a different question as said before:

we didn't see Alice die because neither Henry nor Victor saw it either. Victor was in his vision. Henry had his shifting eyes closed as he was in Victor's mind

this doesn't explain at ALL how Alice actually dropped dead on the floor but Does explain why we don't see it. and that's how the entire Creel flashbacks work to begin with. we see what the characters perceived to have happened. narrative bias and all. Victor gives us his account of the demon. Henry adds his attic and murder moments to it later. Henry is able to tell us his father got arrested that night despite already being in a coma because that's something he found out after the fact. Vecna knows Victor is at Pennhurst so he must have found out about his fathers arrest at some point. and with the set up of withholding perspectives from us that the Creel family has, it makes sense we don't see Alice die because everyone is preoccupied as she does so

i would genuinely not be surprised if we got a Third addition to that night (rule of three's am i right) to show us what happened in that time period of Victor's vision we missed. with the theme of unreliable narrators and the fact we're lacking a time frame where BOTH our narrators are completely occupied in which one of the 4 main characters of the scene also Dies raises alarm bells

4.) "so... what? Alice is coming back to tell her story? she's dead."

well yeah. she is. maybe.

i can certainly not blame anyone for assuming Alice is dead, it's a fair assumption because that's what's conveyed to us on screen. however, with a show that enjoys fucking with perception and perspective as much as ST... well we can certainly question if the dead body we see is actually dead or if our pov characters are just mislead. especially when there are other things standing out as odd

also just adding here: Alice being dead or not has nothing to do with the previous points listed. they all raise questions on their own. her death is just the final addition to the long list of what the fuck is up with Alice Creel? and the fact even her Death is questionable is why people think she might return to tell her side of the story (be that as Karen Wheeler, other characters we know, or just Random-WomanTM)

so Alice is dead right? we see it right here. but the thing is. why does she look nothing like ANY of the other Vecna victims we saw. and it's not like we shouldn't notice the differences since we just saw Virginia die a typical Vecna death in the scene prior

they both bleed from their eyes alright, which both appear to be dark. good. first similarity checked off

now we have the problem that nothing else matches anymore. Alice is the only dead victim that has her mouth closed for some reason. Vecna makes a big show of breaking every bone in his victim's bodies before pushing their eyes in, the limbs and JAR being the most jarring part (haha funny) Patrick, Crissy, Fred, Virginia, all have their mouths open (even in Vecna's mind dimension. the bodies' jaws remain open and broken grotesquely). the only other person we see with a still intact jaw was Max who just as a reminder wasn't dead and actually survived her encounter with Vecna. she died of her injuries right after. but she survived the Vecna'ing itself and her jaw was unbroken, just as Alice's

and as we see with Max, bleeding from your eyes itself actually doesn't kill you. it's the general trauma to the body and that kills you if you survive the initial vecna'ing

but that's not where the weird surrounding Alice Creel ends. because Alice doesn't have that severe physical trauma, she is the LEAST injured Vecna victim we see on the whole show. it's not just her jaw, that is just the most obvious body part we see still intact in the closeup. you know how Henry makes a big deal of snapping every bone in people's bodies even as a tiny child killing his mother? well he kind of forgot to do that with Alice

we spent the entire season seeing the mangled corpses of Vecna's victims including Virginia on the dinner table seconds before this, so why are Alice's bones not snapped like toothpicks?

her left arm is clearly broken, bent behind her back. but that's it. her right arm is completely fine which we can see even better than her left arm because it's laid out on the floor. both her legs have a natural angle (Henry was literally laying just like her until Victor picked him up so those are definitely all good) and again, her jaw is fine too. so. why is Alice not horribly disfigured? she's lying still, that's infinitely easier to CGI than the falling and floating corpses of all the other victims that DO get their bones snapped. so why didn't they animate her other arm to be broken for example or even just used practical effects since she isn't moving to begin with. it's not like they forgot since her left arm IS broken, they just didn't go all the way here for some reason

again, look at her and compare her to every other Vecna victim we saw. these are SURVIVABLE injuries. she's bleeding from her eyes and her left arm is broken. Max died from the shock and culmination of her injuries. Alice would not die from a broken arm. the only possibility for Alice to die here is if Henry straight up stopped her heart and did so BEFORE breaking any bones. which would also be something we haven't seen him do before

taking all this into account. let's make up a scenario where Alice could have actually gotten injured and died during that night:

Henry was busy killing his father. Alice asked him what the fuck he was doing being a little weirdo standing around with his eyes closed and shifting all over the place, right after their mother died and their father was standing around like a statue. and then Henry killed her quickly without exiting his father's vision, which he somehow managed to do but which was still hard for him so he couldn't break any of her bones. but he still managed to take her life by injuring her heart or brain instead of any physical body parts for once. and then Henry fell into a coma when he tried to fully focus on his father again

and this is actually the only way this night could have gone down when taking all we know into account. Alice had to have died during Victor's vision. Henry was busy focusing on the vision. Alice presumably dies with little injuries and for no reason we're told or shown

but then why didn't we see it? it does sound straight forward, so why not show it? well as of now we're literally lacking a perspective of someone who Wasn't mentally hanging out in Victor's vision

"but how would Alice return, she'd at least be blind" well yeah? maybe? but also, again, this is stranger things. they fuck with the narrative all the time. we're missing a full season before we have the full story. we saw Hopper standing in a collapsing room only to learn he didn't die in there the next season. we see Henry lie on the ground with his sister, Eddie's uncle and the newspaper all tell us he died, only to then find out he was very much still alive at the end of the season. could Alice be blind if she survived? yes. could her eyes have recovered? potentially? we don't even know how severely she got hurt in the first place so Anything could be revealed about her in the next season

"but the papers said she died" that one is actually a fully invalid point. they also wrote Henry died. they didn't even know Henry was in a coma, we learn that from Victor. the papers also thought Will died And was found by Hopper in a cabin which were both incorrect. (the paper in Hawkins generally doesn't have the best track record to be honest) so the paper saying Alice died in the same breath they claim Henry died isn't really the most convincing thing

"but Victor only said Henry fell into a coma, that means Alice had to have been dead" well, again, maybe. or he just thought she had died. the Creel narrative we see with Victor and Henry is literally about unreliable narrators and perspectives. Victor for sure thought she was dead, but if she actually was... well we can at least question it with the odd details the show includes

if you want to believe that what we're shown on screen is the truth and Alice is dead that's fair enough. however, with the track record the show has it's not an out there assumption to slightly question how correct the characters are in assuming her death

"but everyone said the demon/Victor took his families eyes, you can't survive that" yeah but that's also wrong. back to the Hawkins-newspaper slander. everyone talks about the whole family's eyes being taken when we Know that's not what happened. Henry's eyes are more than fine. Alice's eyes don't look to good but it doesn't look deadly on it's own honestly. Max was still able to communicate clearly with both her eyes injured by Vecna, even El is constantly shown bleeding from her eyes when using her powers. whether Alice's eyes are gone or just injured, it does not appear to be a deadly injury on it's own

so TLDR as it stands now:

Alice Creel is Weird. straight up. her entire purpose in the narrative is questionable. it seems like she's just there to be the cute innocent girl that dies to make it more tragic at first but then we don't even see her die. to top it off, her lack of a death scene actually happens because it's off screen in a gap in the timeline. so she dies in an unlikely circumstance, in an unknown situation, and with the least injuries we've ever seen on one of Henry's victims.

assuming she is dead because of her bleeding dark eyes is fair. but there's enough discrepancies to seriously question what we're looking at

could she be dead? sure. but could she be alive? well, i'm going to say yes. ST loves subverting expectations and misleads. s4 was all about misleads. the Creel story, the story of the lab. all stories that give the viewer a false perception of reality, not by showing lies, but simply by withholding information. and the idea that Alice could have survived her minimal injuries is not unlikely with what we're used to by now

#there's some other things to be said about Alice but this is generally a good overview of what the fuck is going on with her character #there's so much that's just Interesting about her #i've talked a bit about the theories regarding the Creels and Wheelers now lmao #i'll go to the other two angles later on too and go into detail about the 'What is up with Karen Wheeler' part of the theory people bring u #and also the 'What the is up with the narrative connection of the Wheelers and Creels' things but that's a whole can of worms #since i'm not a die hard believer of the theory at all it's kind of funny to go over because there Are some really odd and wild details #that support it but also details that should absolutely disprove it. it's fun #and the Alice thing really just stands on it's own regardless. even if she has absolutely nothing to do with Karen Wheeler #SOMETHING is sure up with her #alice creel #virginia creel #victor creel #henry creel #stranger things #st analysis #creel/wheeler theory

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elvisqueso · 8 months

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behold, my fixation

(hc's under the cut)

listen. i've been fucked up over a completely self-indulgent modern au of these two for a week and i need to expel all the headcanons i've stockpiled or i will actually lose my shit. so this is both '''''canon''''' p/js and the modern au i made up.

pocahontas is demi in both; she had a healthy libido, but she doesn't experience much sexual attraction to others. once she does, tho, it's like a switch goes off and she finds the physical act of love a very fulfilling part of her relationship. i also hc that the other person she's had sexual experience with is nakoma, although it was entirely sexual on her end and not at all romantic (nakoma had a crush on her tho. got a lil messy there). in modern au, she's transgender and what you might call 'fully transitioned.' she prefers to remain stealth, but will talk about her experience in certain circles if she feels comfortable enough to do so (mostly, she's only comfortable talking to john or nakoma about it).

john has a lot going on. he's bi and isn't too conflicted about it in either canon, but in modern au he grew up in a very heteronormative community and family so he has a lil gender crisis going on. he thinks of himself as 'part guy, part not-guy.' they don't really have the benefit of a vocabulary to work this out on their own, so it's a little nebulous. i wanted some 'messy gendered' john, what can i say?

big spoon-little spoon

john is basically made to be big spoon, and pocahontas likes being all snug, but she can step up easily if john's feelin a lil fragile (modern au this happens more often bc of the ptsd i gave him. heehee ;3 ).

lends clothes-borrows clothes

pocahontas can and has borrowed/stolen every piece of clothing john owns.

pet names

pocahontas tends to lean towards using more 'proper' names and addresses just in general; pet names were never much of a thing so much as nicknames were growing up. john, on the other hand, will use a pet name for a houseplant.

introverted-extroverted

pocahontas is quite introverted, and tends to go off on her own a lot to recharge after a big run of interactions (this happens a lot in modern au due to her job). john is generally extroverted, but he can get tired of putting on a 'show' for people after a while.

affection through words-actions

they both use a fairly balanced amount of words and actions, although pocahontas tends to vocalize her feelings more, and john has a big 'acts of service' thing going on once he's got the traction for it.

confessions

john's self esteem is in the ground, so he never confesses first. he just deprioritizes his own feelings in favor of other peoples', so he'll just...not say anything, and assume he'll be told to 'leave' when he's not wanted around anymore. pocahontas confesses to him when she figures this out, and realizes she has to spell it out for him that yES she wants him around oh my god

BUGS

these are pro-bug dorks who will take selfies with the bug before releasing it gently into the wild.

driving

both can drive but neither are particularly good. pocahontas has a motorcycle tho and she's very good on that.

cooking

these two are equally useless when it comes to domestic chores in general, because they get very impatient and lose focus. they literally have to have someone babysitting them throughout any chore or task like cooking or they will Fail so everything from cooking to cleaning the bathroom they HAVE to do together because it's the only way anything will get done. they rely heavily on takeout and nakoma cooking for them, but they do that 'hello fresh' type thing sometimes and it's a whole evening of them following directions to maybe succeed in making something edible. john is only slightly more capable bc he has one (1) sandwich and one (1) recipe for pulled pork that he can pull off on his own.

PDA

this was supposed to be a dual-colored dot lmao but they are equally disgusting as like the type of couple that forgets other people are Watching and will make out in a public park.

protectiveness

pocahontas is generally more protective only bc she knows john doesn't prioritize his own safety/LIFE and will get himself injured if he thinks he can protect someone else. john is closer to chill only bc he generally knows pocahontas is Highly capable of taking care of herself and doesn't really need him to protect her (although he would absolutely die for her if it came down to it)

relationship experience

john actually has some experience, although never anything too serious. pocahontas, being demi and fairly aloof, never had a real relationship before, so she sometimes feels insecure about her part of the relationship.

horny levels

like i said before, pocahontas has a very healthy libido, but low sexual attraction, so once the engine starts in her relationship with john, she's generally On It most of the time. john (being a healthy young man himself) is p happy to try and keep up, but if he's just not able to get there for some reason (overstimulated, depressed, just not feelin the mojo), pocahontas is very good about winding back down to non-sexual forms of affection.

awkwardness levels

they're both fairly awkward people, actually, when you think about it, but in different ways, and in different situations. overall, they balance each other's awkwardness out and make a v good team, socially.

jealousy levels

the aforementioned total absence of john's self esteem also contribute to his lack of jealous tendencies (also, to him, someone else paying a lot of attention to pocahontas is just...normal. like if someone wasn't enchanted by her he'd think they were a lil crazy, kinda way). pocahontas on the other hand, due to her insecurities, can get pretty jealous over john. she's very self-aware about it though, and can curb it with some effort, but she can get too much in her head about it sometimes.

here's the full version of that pic btw:

this is how i envision their relationship.

#pocahontas x john smith #pocajohn #p/js #i couldn't stop thinking about this all day #pls ask me about my stupid headcanons for this ship and the modern au #pls tell me your headcanons #also that meme is a little hard to draw bc the twink pose has the head at such an odd angle #and i'm rusty. and linework is hard.#and i'm trying to work out how to translate these two into my own style. it's...going.

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