#they are the gays of this series i just know it my gaydar is pinging that final shot of all the couples and panning to them

[caroldanversenthusiast]

and when we get the imogen and tabby best friends to lovers slow burn romance… then you’ll know

[janamelie]

LGBT+ Characters

What This Isn’t

A claim of “proof” of the sexuality and / or gender identity of any of these characters.  We don’t need that or anything else to “justify” shipping.

What This Is

A reference post to collate instances in canon which could indicate LGBT+ characters.  In the case of regulars, I won’t include every instance as it would simply take too long.

Rimmer

As I was saying… :p

Honestly, Rimmer is so obviously LGBT+ to me that I don’t know where to start.  How about his reaction to Ace in “Dimension Jump”?

RIMMER: "Commander Rimmer!" I ask you.  "Ace!" Barf city.  I bet you anything he wears women's underwear.  They're all the same, this type, you know, Hurly-burly, rough-n-tumble macho marines in public, and behind closed doors he'll be parading up and down in taffeta ballgowns, drinking mint juleps, whipping the houseboy.

KRYTEN: Sir, he's you!  It's just that your lives diverged at a certain point in time.

RIMMER: Yes, I went into the gents and he went the other way.

KRYTEN: I assume, sir, you are making fatuous references to his sexuality.  If I may point out, if --

Or how about Low Rimmer?  Surely Rob and Doug could have got their point across a little less graphically?

Or if you prefer something less rapey, this passage from “IWCD”.  Unlike the show, Rob and Doug had more time and leeway to explore the characters and this is what they chose to include for Rimmer:

“Rimmer began to regret his outburst. He didn’t like to see his other self upset, and he even contemplated briefly going up to him and giving him a manly embrace. But in a brief moment of homosexual panic, he thought his double might get the wrong idea. Not that he would, of course, because he was him and he knew for a fact he wasn’t that way sexually tilted; so obviously his double wasn’t and obviously his double would know that he wasn’t either, and it was simply a manly embrace meant in a sort of mano a mano kind of way…Perhaps he was tired…Two or three days in bed and he’d be his old self again…Who cared if his copy saw it as a sign of weakness? He’d suggest it anyway.” Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, Grant/Naylor, pg 233.

And this from the end of the “Better Than Life” novel, when Holly - whose IQ has been restored - comes up with a way to bring Lister back from the dead (no, not as a hologram):

“Rimmer stood in the hatchway and his face yielded to a grin, which in turn gave way to laughter.  Not his normal hollow braying empty laughter, this was an altogether different noise.  This was a noise his vocal cords had never been called on to make before.

It was the laughter of joy.”

Better Than Life, Grant/Naylor, pg 218.

I know some fans read Rimmer as asexual and you can certainly make an argument for that, most obviously in “Marooned” where he describes his younger self as not “particularly highly sexed”.  Of course, that wouldn’t preclude him also being homoromantic or biromantic.

Lister

No-one’s denying Lister’s obvious attraction to and affection for women, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t be bisexual or pansexual.  In fact, his “I’m not gay!” protestations in “Duct Soup” is a fairly common way for people attracted to more than one gender to describe themselves if they don’t feel comfortable using labels.  Given that he was talking to Chloe!Kochanski to whom he’s attracted, it makes sense that he’d prevaricate like this.

And then of course, in the very next episode “Blue”, he dreams about kissing Rimmer.  It’s not only the fact of this, it’s the subsequent scene drawing a direct comparison between him missing Rimmer and Kochanski missing her Dave - her boyfriend.  And despite the ending of this episode, when Lister actually meets Rimmer again, he’s delighted.  Until he realises it’s not HIS Rimmer and even so, he gets used to nano-Rimmer and they eventually become quite chummy.

Not forgetting the chemistry between him and Ace, of course.

Kryten

I know he's a mechanoid, but no-one has any problem reading his relationship with Mechanoid - and later Blob - Camille as romantic and Camille literally says herself that both she and her husband Hector are actually androgynous, which makes Kryten - at the very least - panromantic.

And that’s before we get to his very obvious love for Lister which he states himself in “Back In The Red”.

Holly

Holly was actually conceived as a female character and became male due to Norman Lovett’s original casting.  Sources: “Stasis Leaked” by Smegazine writer Jane Killick and “The Unofficial Red Dwarf Programme Guide” by Smegazine writers Chris Howarth and Steve Lyons.

With Hattie’s replacement casting and later Norman’s return, Rob and Doug may not have intended to create a trans or genderfluid character, but that’s what they ended up doing.

Holly is also bisexual - male Holly was attracted to Hilly and female Holly to Ace.

George McIntyre

It was actually Rob and Doug’s audio commentary on the pilot version of “The End” on “The Bodysnatcher Collection” which alerted me to this possibility.  I know it’s a stretch but I’m including it precisely because I’m indifferent to George as a character and it makes no difference to me whether someone believes this one or not.

During George’s speech at his “Welcome back” party, he says “I don’t want you to think of me as someone who’s dead, more as someone who’s no longer a threat to your marriages - I think Joe knows what I’m talking about!”

We see a man and a woman laughing and the woman playfully pokes the man in the arm.  He stops laughing and looks a bit sheepish.

Rob and Doug comment confusedly to the effect of “Shouldn’t it be the other way round?  This is one of the things we had no control over at this stage.”

Come on, Rob and Doug.  Not only does this scene appear intact in the final televised version of “The End”, you also included extra background on George in “Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers”, showing the events leading up to his death.  Unlike the hologram he replaces, Frank Saunders, there is no mention of George having a wife or indeed any partner, so as far I’m concerned, we shippers can read whatever we choose into this scene.  We would regardless, but the way canon leaves it is particularly open-ended.

Deb Lister and Arlene Rimmer (“Parallel Universe”)

See previous entries.  If their male counterparts are LGBT+ then so are they, plus I always got that vibe from the performances anyway.

Camille

Yes, everyone uses female pronouns for her as that’s how she presents to the crew, but she says herself: “We’re androgynous, but I suppose you could call [Hector] my husband.”

Noel Coward Waxdroid (“Meltdown”)

Mr Coward was gay in real life and his fictional incarnation here greets Rimmer with “Delighted to meet you, dear boy!”  I rest my case.

Nirvanah Crane

And arguably the entire crew of the Holoship according to her speech: “It's a ship regulation that we all have sexual congress at least twice a day.  It's a health rule … Here it is considered the height of bad manners to refuse an offer of sexual coupling … We are holograms.  There is no risk of disease or pregnancy.  That is why in our society we only believe in sex -- constant, guilt-free sex.”

Does that sound as though they’re fussy about the genders of their partners?  It certainly doesn’t to me.  So:

Captain Hercule Platini

Commander Randy Navarro

Commander Natalina Pushkin

Commander Binks

Sam Murray

From the Series V DVD booklet:

“Briefly revived in “Holoship”, it came as a surprise that Sam was male.  In the original pilot script - and Series 1′s deleted funeral scene - deceased crew member “Sam Murray” is said to be dating “Rick Thesen”.  Possibly Red Dwarf’s first gay couple?”

Cop (“Back To Reality”)

I’m sure it wasn’t written as such and maybe he didn’t intend to, but the way Lenny Von Dohlen plays his character’s reaction to the Voter Colonel just pings my gaydar.

Frank Todhunter (“The End”)

I know the conversation in “Duct Soup” (which also includes a reference to a gay crew member nicknamed “Bent Bob” *cringe*) where Kochanski tells Lister that the Todhunter in her dimension was gay is played off as something she made up to take Lister’s mind off his claustrophobia, but she never actually says as much.  There’s nothing to say that at least part of what she was saying wasn’t true.

Ackerman (Series VIII)

In the Series VIII DVD documentary, actor Graham McTavish says he was playing Ackerman as someone who enjoys sex with women “or at a pinch, men dressed as women”.  So onto this list he goes.

Big Meat (“Only The Good”)

I don’t blame you if you’ve blocked this one out as I find the scene almost unwatchable, but he’s the big prisoner who takes to the idea of being Cat’s “bitch” unexpectedly quickly.

Katerina Bartikovsky (“Back To Earth”)

Credit to @clueingforbeggs for noticing that in “Pete Part 1” Ackerman claims to have been “having jiggy-jiggy with the Science Officer’s wife” and connecting that with Katerina being a Science Officer.  There’s nothing to say that the Joy Squid didn’t conjure up the image of an actual crew member.

But maybe the ship has more than one Science Officer?  Well, the way it’s said makes it sound as though there is only one but in “Holoship” Kryten gives Rimmer a mind patch from two officers, one of whom is Science Officer Buchan.  There is no mention of Buchan’s gender so who’s to say they aren’t also female?

Begg Chief (“Entangled”)

“We prefer the ship of green.  And the sexy light man with the lady legs so long and luscious!”

Chancellor Wednesday (“The Beginning”)

Actor Alex Hardy says in Series X DVD doc “We’re Smegged” that he was playing the relationship between his character and Dominator Zlurth with a homoerotic undercurrent and you can see it subtly in his performance.

Dolphy (“Cured”)

All I’ll say about this one is that if Messalina had behaved towards Lister as Dolphy does in this episode, nobody would have doubted that she was into him.

Ziggy (“Timewave”)

Proof that LGBT+ characters in this show work a lot better when Doug isn’t intentionally writing them as such.  Sorry.

Feel free to add any examples I may have missed.

@lord-valery-mimes  @aziraphale-lesbian   @notalwaysweak  @feline-ranger  @downonthepharm-red-dwarf  @hologrammette  @rosecathy  @cazflibs​

[aprillikesthings]

So that Akalynn angst-with-a-happy-ending fic I wrote. Y’know, this one. 

There’s a part of it where Evelynn overhears Akali have sex with Kai’sa. Later on in the day Akali’s in the shower and Evelynn gets in with her and they have sex, and afterward Evelynn is having feelings but doesn’t know how to explain herself so she doesn’t. A bit later Akali leaves the house without saying anything to anyone (to presumably spend the night with her not-girlfriend), and Kai’sa cuddles Evelynn on the couch and falls asleep like that and Evelynn is like “why am I so bad at Feelings?”, basically. 

Anyway. 

At one point I was editing the fic and was like “lol I just basically implied Akali’s had sex three times that day with three different women,” but I left it there. 

And then the other day I couldn’t stop imagining that series of scenes from Akali’s POV and banged out 1800 words of mostly zero draft, and the “other girl” got fleshed out a bunch--and differently than I would have expected?

The....not-girlfriend. I never bother to name her, in part because Evelynn would probably make a point of not remembering it or using it ever, but also because I didn’t want to come up with a plausible name.

I mostly just saw her as sorta bland and cute but to be fair I was seeing her from Evelynn’s POV, lol. In the fic we learn that she’s pretty and always either smiles or makes a silly face in pictures and likes texting all day and is very very noisy during sex if she’s drunk and specifically likes to yell Akali’s name, lol. Oh, and that she believes Akali’s lies about the marks Evelynn leaves on her. And that she breaks it off with Akali eventually to date a dude she doesn’t even like because her parents are pushy about it. 

I gave her a name, Yujin. Which I’m gonna be honest, I pulled off a list of common Korean women’s names (of women born in 1990). 

Her parents are rich, she works a low-paying office job she doesn’t care about, she lives alone in a fashionable part of town (her parents pay ahaha), she drinks more than she should and likes video games, her friends are also all rich kids, she’s a huge gossip but not really in a mean way, she’s the one more likely to text “I’m bored, you should come over.” 

Yujin pays for everything they do together. Akali’s like: wtf I have the money. Yujin’s like: lol no you don’t, kpop stars don’t make shit most of the time, I’m not stupid; y’all share a house.

And Yujin is super funny and easy-going to hang out with and is basically just here for a good time, whatever. 

She also claims she’s not gay (or bi), major internalized homophobia even though she’s sleeping with someone who pings every human’s gaydar. Like, all girls would sleep with their friends given the chance, right? Girls are just prettier, everyone knows that. 

But yah! Akali goes to her house that night, they play video games and drink more than they probably should, Akali gets her off, they’re tired and lie down, Akali falls asleep thinking about how this situation is gonna end up a disaster sooner or later. 

Anyway. I still haven’t decided if this is a fic I’m gonna actually write or just leave the zero draft in my docs and look at it and then stare off into space now and then. 

[writersriot]

@neepcreature

So so sorry it took me forever to get back to your response to Part 16!! I also apologize for my long-ass response haha, hence why this is in a separate post. Because I am a rambler who talks to much concerning my special interests.

When Two-Bit and Marcia get married (in my mind haha), they would absolutely end the rivalry lol. I just love how they instantly bonded over their shared sense of humor, but then we never heard about them again. Like dude, what happened to my one het ship in this book haha.

The ages!! Oh god the ages lolol. See, the way these characters’ ages are written. . .just doesn’t make sense. I don’t know if this came from Hinton writing as a teenager and making certain assumptions about how people act at certain ages?? I know by the time kids are seniors in high school, around 17-18, they look at the freshmen, around 13-15, and think they’re babies haha. And sometimes the ones who are out of high school but still basically youths seems so much older and wiser (which, lol.)

Darry is 20, but god at 20 I knew nothing, and Darry is holding up his family by himself. Even Two-Bit is 18 going on 19 yet still in school, not even a senior yet. And he’s the oldest of the gang, which really makes me think Darry isn’t usually involved with the gang so much as maybe Soda is. I think Two-Bit even mentions that he’d beat down Pony if he weren’t Soda’s kid brother, so it makes me think this gang is mostly made of these boys who went to the same school for at least some time and who live in the same neighborhood. (So like Pony and Darry are included in the gang because they’re related to Soda I guess)

Because Soda is 16 going on 17, which I assume Steve is as well since they’re best friends. Who else is that age?? Johnny. With Dally only a year older. Like lol forever. Because really, is it Pony wanting to be part of the gang so much and to be taken seriously like you said? Like Pony kind of latches onto Johnny as a type of kindred-spirit as shy, quiet types that Pony makes assumptions about Johnny, seeing him as younger than he is and closer to Pony’s age? ‘Cause even though Johnny is Pony’s friend, I feel like Johnny sees Pony as a younger brother he would (and does) protect.

I also think maybe Pony fundamentally doesn’t understand the relationship Johnny has with the other members of the gang either because he doesn’t see it. I think his notion of this is amended a bit at the end of the book, when it’s too late unfortunately.

So is the infantilizing of Johnny really as bad as it seems in Pony’s perspective? Or is it just Pony’s interpretation of events? I mean, we know Johnny is small for his age, which can happen to kids raised in abusive situations, though of course it could be he’s a little of a late bloomer puberty-wise. And we know the gang wants to protect Johnny due to his abusive and neglectful home life. Pony says Johnny is the “pet” of the gang, which I don’t even know what to make of other than Pony making assumptions.

Here’s a kid very near the same age as most of the guys in the gang, yet due to his size and likely being in the same class as Pony, he maybe gets treated like another little brother. But he’s the little brother you don’t fuck with at all. And honestly, Pony calls Johnny the pet, but we really don’t see that kind of dramatic behavior from the rest of the gang. They’re protective of him, absolutely. But it’s honestly as if the only one who infantilizes Johnny is, in fact, Ponyboy himself? Like, I just don’t get those “he’s the pet” vibes from the rest of the gang so much as “Johnny’s already been through shit so don’t give him any more” vibes.

And this infantilizing of Johnny I think is what makes readers think he’s Pony’s age instead of the same age as most of the gang. And I think it’s why some people are against the Johnny/Dally ship as well? Like they see it as a dramatic age and power difference, when really, I think that’s only due to Pony’s narrative of everyone and not actually what the subtext implies. That’s my analysis of it.

Oh gosh, I followed Hinton on twitter just a little before her rude responses started up and garnered so much attention back in October last year. I thought, oh cool, another author to love -- oh shit nevermind. Like she would tweet some good stuff and then make me kind of despise her when answering questions about The Outsiders lol. So yes, I saw all of her. . .Hinton-ness. She honestly should have said, “That wasn’t my intention writing these characters, but it’s cool if readers see something else,” and left it at that. And maybe people should have stopped asking her if the characters were gay and just said, “I see them as gay no matter what lol bye” like haha that’s the only way I would ever do it because I don’t need an author’s permission to read their book a certain way.

But I stg Hinton needs to go back over what she wrote. Because what she thinks she wrote and what actually made it onto the page appear to be different. Like if she wanted to make Johnny really excited to talk to girls. . .I’m sorry, that just didn’t happen. And she kept saying “where’s the textual evidence?” and I’m like read your fucking book, lady! Or get a queer person to read it and explain it to you because you didn’t actually manage to make Johnny’s heterosexuality set in stone lol. I was twelve, attending Catholic school, and I was like damn that’s hella gay. Like I didn’t even really have a good concept of “gay” but I knew Johnny and Dally were pinging my gaydar haha. And I’m hella aroace and I could still see the subtext of it playing out through the book.

At her age, if Hinton really weren’t homophobic, she could probably look at what she wrote fifty years ago as a teenager and think, “huh maybe this is a little queerer than I thought I was writing back then. Welp.” Because by her own admission she says she didn’t know any queer people growing up, which lol I call BS she just didn’t know any OUT queer people. She’s one of those types of people that says, “Ask anyone if it was cute to be gay in the 60s” as if queer people didn’t exist back then with their own community.

It’s like she’s ignoring the counter-culture of hippies that came about in the 60s. And there was a queer movement from the 50s that resembled the picture of manliness, I forget what it’s called now, which is something Greasers apparently actuated by controlling their emotions and seeming utterly “cool” which honestly, is not the type of Greaser Hinton wrote about with their violent feelings haha. Plus there’s a whole punk and queer movement on the cusp of this, so Hinton can’t convince me everywhere in the 60s was homophobic. Maybe Tulsa, Oklahoma had it’s fair share of bigots but my god.

Queer people existed back then, and now we are all more widely accepted, so maybe instead of contributing to a stifling culture of authorial intent of heteronormativity, how about she reconsider what it could mean for her characters to be considered queer in this day and age as good role models and that sure, it’s okay to be queer. Granted, the two I believe are the most queer are the ones who end up dead so it maybe just adds to the “bury your gays” trope but who knows. In that case, Hinton might think for the 60s that would actually be accurate representation. (I’m sorry, maybe that was mean lol).

Anyway, clearly I’m a little bitter over how she handled the situation because I started writing this series after all.

Johnny absolutely has PTSD! I’m glad you brought that up because you’re right, I haven’t mentioned it in this series yet. But it’s very important to consider that Johnny comes from an abusive and neglectful home, and then he gets attacked by the Socs which is a hugely traumatic event. The kid is a mess, and I feel so badly for him because he’s just trying to survive. But absolutely it’s a concept that isn’t recognized in the book, and honestly I think it’s difficult for kids and even teens to recognize trauma and PTSD for what it is. I know I didn’t recognize being in an abusive situation until much later in life. And it seems like the type of household Johnny came from was common in the 60s because I hear stories from my mom and even my gramma that make me go “wtf that is abusive as shit.” So I definitely think Hinton herself didn’t realize she was writing a character with PTSD as we would analyze it now.

That’s why it is interesting that Cherry does recognize that Johnny has had some kind of trauma. I absolutely believe it’s leaking from Johnny’s pores most of the time, and sometimes stuff like that is more obvious to people who don’t see a person every day. And Pony definitely doesn’t have the vocabulary or knowledge of PTSD, so you’re right, that may very well be why Pony describes Johnny as shy. Because Pony also describes Johnny as looking like a kicked puppy most days, and I just ugh cry a little. It absolutely sounds like Two-Bit triggers a dissociative episode, but that Pony would only see it as Johnny being jumpy and scared. Like Pony would just have no concept of how traumatic the attack was for Johnny, even despite Pony having his own form of PTSD after the death of his parents, which we see a reoccurrence of after Johnny’s death. Just all around, I feel so much for these boys.

I could chalk this up to Hinton’s writing, but again she was a teenager herself, so I want to say that she just needed a narrative device of trauma without necessarily seeing what that means for the characters. Having the narrator say Johnny is shy when he really doesn’t exhibit that behavior just shows me that Hinton didn’t have a great grasp on what she was writing either. That’s why many readers have such a different reaction to the story because we recognize the trauma, the PTSD, the abuse, and yes, the queer subtext. But these are issues that I never heard discussed in any classes, it was always the Socs versus the Greasers and what “the same sunset” bullshit means and asking about the abuse without framing it as abuse. It’s like only a surface-level reading of these characters that I could never stand because I saw so much more to them. It’s a pity that Hinton can’t see beyond the surface of the story she wrote either.

So yeah, anyway. Long post is long, and I hope my rambling made some sort of sense?? Uh, I ALWAYS want discussions like this, even on previous posts or just on their own if you say, “hey I was thinking about this” like I will be right on your page!! Sorry for bombarding you with such a lengthy, nonsensical response, but thank you for having discussions with me, it makes my life meaningful and my special interest in The Outsiders feel like it hasn’t been wasted the last uh almost couple decades haha.