#they're guilty obviously but it seems like they're also traumatised by their actions

[natequarter]

MACBETH: Whence is that knocking?  How is't with me, when every noise appals me?  What hands are here? ha! they pluck out mine eyes.  Will all great Neptune's ocean wash this blood  Clean from my hand?

'will all great neptune's ocean wash this blood clean from my hand?' is one of the most famous lines from macbeth, but what fascinates me is the line before it - 'every noise appals me.' if we factor in macbeth's otherwise guilt (bloodstains), paranoia, and hallucinations (daggers, banquo), not to mention general panicking (particularly when the subjects of duncan or banquo's deaths come up) and insomnia, he's already pretty messed up, but this excerpt seems to suggest that even sudden noises startle him. honestly, all of this put together, it seems like both macbeth and his wife are traumatised by the murder of duncan

[scripttorture]

Would there be any tell tale signs that someone is a torturer? One of my characters friends have been taken away and they're convinced they're being tortured and plan to take the torturer out, obviously killing someone on an assumption is bad (that'll be made clear in the story) but what is the likelyhood that she would guess right based off actions? Not as an excuse to her actions but just so I can write her thought processes a little clearer and as accurate as possible

There isn’t enough research for me to give you a definitive answer here. If there are tell-tale signs then- the little bit of research we have so far hasn’t clearly identified them.

 I can’t say that there aren’t any tell-tale signs. The truth is we don’t know enough. We don’t know enough about who is vulnerable to ‘recruitment’, what the long term effects look like or long term rehabilitation.

 I can talk about what we know about the general mind set, justifications torturers use and the effects torture has on them. I think that would help your story.

 But in my opinion- I don’t think you can tell based on a person’s actions. Unless the action in question is literally witnessing them torturing someone.

 In these sorts of environments- your character would find a lot of people who voice support for torture, or apathy over whether or not it occurs. That does not necessarily mean the apologist has or will torture someone.

 The mental health problems torturers are vulnerable to occur naturally in the population for a wide number of reasons. And in groups like soldiers and police officers they could well be symptoms of other kinds of trauma.

 There are records of some torturers abusing their families. But it’s unclear how often this happens and plenty of abusers are not torturers.

 Personally- I am very dubious about the idea of someone looking at a person’s behaviour and assuming they can ‘tell’ their crimes as a result. I’m not dubious about it as a fictional idea, story wise it does have a lot of potential.

 I’m dubious about showing it as successful because- that sort of thinking is tangentially tied to torture in real life. This assumption of guilt is used to justify torture in real life. Especially when the victim is an ethnic minority or mentally ill.

 Let’s start with the simpler stuff: the long term symptoms torturers have are broadly the same as the ones survivors have.

 My impression is that torturers typically have less severe symptoms then survivors but this is not always the case. I usually recommend that writers pick a smaller range of symptoms for torturers then survivors (I think I usually say 1-3, but I do vary that if there are other traumatising factors in the story). As with any other kind of trauma symptom it’s impossible to predict which individual will develop which symptoms, so I recommend picking symptoms you feel fit the character and story best.

 Which brings us to the thornier issue of how torturers justify and relate to their crimes.

 Please remember that I’m not a mental health professional. I will try to make it clear when I am giving my opinion or the impressions I get from reading interviews verses assessments professionals have made.

 I don’t really see any marked difference in the arguments torturers make compared to torture apologists generally. If anything my impression is that torturers make less sophisticated versions of the same basic arguments.

 Torturers generally claim that torture ‘works’, either as a deterrent or as a way for obtaining accurate information. This is demonstrably false.

 I am honestly not sure whether most torturers believe it. My impression, based on the interview transcripts I’ve read, is that a lot of torturers are dense and somewhat self-deluded. I think it’s possible that some of them do genuinely believe it, despite their own experience.

 Torturers will often try to argue that they ‘had’ to commit their crimes and that it was ultimately in service of a greater good. The ‘logic’ is that if torture works the way they think it does (which it does not) then they ‘preventing’, terrorism, rebellion, animal poaching etc, and this justifies the harm they cause.

 This is more or less exactly the same argument that torture apologists often fall back on. The rhetoric that the ends justify the means- even if the means can not possibly lead to the end they’re arguing for.

 Another apologist argument that torturers commonly use is the idea that their victims deserved it.

 They emphasise that their victims were criminals, terrorists, homeless, ‘dangerous’ minorities, queer people- or any group that is pushed to the margins of society. They try to reframe their abuse as a heroic act and to reframe any arguments objecting to it as in support of crime, terrorism etc.

 Sironi, a professional who spent much of her career treating torturers, has said that they seem to have a lot of difficulty accepting the magnitude of what they’ve done. They downplay the harm they caused victims and underestimate the damage they did.

 It’s- difficult to describe what this looks like though because they do generally recognise that they’ve caused a lot of harm. I suppose the best way to describe it is a sort of self-pitying focus: torturers are much more likely to emphasise the problems torture has caused them then they are to show genuine sympathy for their victims. The impression I get from interviews is that they know they’ve caused harm but don’t really want to think about it too much.

 Perhaps the scale of it is overwhelming.

 To my knowledge there hasn’t been an indepth study examining things like socio-economic background in torturers.

 Anecdotally they are usually men, but this may be because discrimination against women makes it harder for them to join the organisations torturers are in. If there are less women in the military and police then for purely statistical reasons more torturers in those groups would be men.

 Rejali’s assessment was that they are often seen as loyal to the state/government they serve. Again this may be more to do with recruitment then anything else.

 As for their general mindset-

 My own impression is that they don’t re-adjust to society well.

 This doesn’t necessarily mean they’re violent. In fact I haven’t seen anything to say conclusively that they remain violent or aggressive after leaving the organisation they tortured for.

 But they struggle to come to terms with their mental health problems. They often seem to resist attempts to treat or address them.

 They struggle to keep down normal jobs. They struggle to access educational opportunities. They struggle to keep up relationships with their previous friends and family, they often don’t seem to develop new relationships at all.

 They’re profoundly isolated individuals. They’re generally quite seriously ill and they’re usually almost completely unsupported.

 The organisations that they tortured for- tend to get rid of them. Either when they reach the point of collapse due to mental health problems or when they decide torturers are a liability. The second option often seems to mean they’re killed.

 Here’s the thing though: from the outside without further evidence all of this can look very much like a trauma survivor.

 A trauma survivor who is also an apologist asshole, but a trauma survivor nonetheless.

 If you want your character to be right in their assessment then I’d suggest combining all of these with observation and survivor accounts. If other survivors have consistently pointed out a particular individual or group then it’s more likely they’ll be torturers. An individual who spends a lot of time at work with, or was trained by, a known torturer is more likely to be a torturer themselves.

 But this is definitely not fool proof.

 If you want your character to be wrong then keep in mind all the people that could fit the above description without necessarily being guilty of much besides- being wrong, possibly ill and a bit of a bastard.

 You might find the appendices to The Wretched of The Earth helpful. Particularly the notes on the two (very different) torturers and the torturer’s daughter.

 I hope this helps. :)

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[scripttorture]

I have a character who is taking care of someone who was tortured. In this story they aren't really aware of exactly what happened, but they're seeing hints of it - the person flinching away from them in fright if they move too quick/get too close, getting incredibly emotional/upset even when reassured that they're all right, loss of appetite, nausea, terrified of being left alone, etc. Besides medication, what are some things the person can do to help without knowing specifics of what happened?

Tobe honest I’m not sure that knowing the specifics is as helpful aswe tend to assume it is. It probably helps a caregiver to processwhat they’re seeing, it might give an illusion of control but thecommon psychological symptoms are generally the same regardless ofwhat torture technique was used and the treatment is also pretty muchthe same.

Unlessthere are physical injuries or conditions that need to bespecifically addressed I don’t think a detailed account of whathappened is necessary to help. In the same way that you don’t needto know what someone was stabbed with in order to hold a towel overthe wound.

Psychologicalsymptoms themselves can’t prove torture or even trauma. You’reright that the helping character might get an idea of what happenedfrom the survivor’s symptoms and how they respond. But- some of thethings you’ve listed are things Idoand I’ve never been tortured or traumatised.

Iguess I feel like it’s important to stress that because we canprove pretty conclusively that someone is mentally ill and hassymptoms consistent with trauma. But that isn’t proof of trauma.

Asfor what someone can do to help- There are a lot of everyday thingspeople can do to support someone. All of what follows comes with thecaveat that I am not a mental health professional, this is intendedfor fiction and this is not intended to help you depict a mentalhealth professional.

Ithink the most important thing is probably listening to what thetraumatised character says and not dismissing it. If they’vedeveloped an irrational fear of the kettle then telling them it’sirrational isn’t going to help but finding an alternate way ofgetting hot water or making their tea for them might.

Talkingand communication is important but it’s often really difficult. Iuh- obviously don’t know if you’ve got any experience talking tosomeone who is severely depressive and/or suicidal but it can feel abit circular. It can be difficult to get them engaged in theconversation. Often everything on their side comes back to how awfulthey’re feeling.

Thiscan create a real feeling of helplessness in care givers/friends.They feel like they ‘should’ be able to get rid of this mood. Tocheer them up or ‘snap them out of it’. And usually it doesn’twork like that.

Thingslike anxiety of hypervigilance can similarly impact on relationships.Friends might find it difficult that the survivor character isflinching from them ordoesn’t want to be touched by them.Because they’re a friend not a threat, and doesn’t the survivorknow that? Unfortunately it’s pretty common for someone tologically know that and have a response due to their mental illnessanyway. No amount of logic or talking will make this response vanishquickly.

It’simportant for the character to be patient and not get frustrated oroverwhelmed by the fact they can’t magically get through to thevictim.

It’salso important that the care givers knows to take some time tothemselves. Otherwise they’re likely to get overwhelmed, burn outor start to resent the victim for their ‘inability’ to just getbetter.

Everydaypractical things like doing the laundry or cooking dinner are alsoincredibly important. It’s pretty common for trauma survivors tofeel unable to cope with a lot of small everyday tasks. That’s partand parcel of a lot of the mental illnesses torture causes.

Makingsure someone has had a hot meal when the prospect of cooking seemsdaunting is a huge help.

It’simportant that the supporting character doesn’t try to force orpressure the survivor into telling them what happened. Doing so canmake them relive the experience, trigger their mental health problemsand damage their relationship with the supporting character.

There’salso a host of small things a character can do to help with specificproblems the survivor is experiencing.

I’mcribbing this example from Scripttraumasurvivor-

Saythe survivor struggles to get out of bed at all (common withdepressive symptoms). The supporting character might come in at areasonable time in the morning and open the curtains, lay out someclothes and cleaning paraphernalia. They might ask the character toplease get up before leaving them to space and time to do so.

If/whenthe character gets up they might then encourage them to move out ofthe bedroom and perhaps even outside. They might also talk to thesurvivor in ways that are...trying to focus on the fact they’re notalone.

Noticeall the small actions in that passage that encourage the character toget up and make things easier or less overwhelming. The clothes arealready laid out. The room is lighter (but not artificially so),encouraging them to wake up. They’re given the time and space toact on their own, which would hopefully reduce the sense of shamethey probably feel for not being able to do these things as easilyany more.

It’sabout carrying on with those sorts of small acts for...everything.Understanding that some days they won’tbe able to get out of bed and responding to that with care andcompassion. ‘OK you can’t get up, how about sitting up? Can youdo that? Can I get you some pillows? Do you want me to bring youbreakfast?’

Forloss of appetite and nausea specifically- well I’ve suffered fromboth for prolonged periods and the two main things I can remember are1) always keep a bucket to hand and 2) finding out what’s easy toeat by trial and error.

Differentpeople (and characters) will find different things easy to eat. Soupmight be good for some people. Certain textures or flavours might bea bad idea. Things that are difficult to chew are probably out.I….basically lived off rice and lentils for a couple of months.Sometimes with onions. I think that worked for me personally becauseit was food I’d grown up on, as well as being easy to chew andswallow and without strong flavours.

Smallerportions may also help. I knew I felt incredibly guilty for beingunable to finish a plate of food, even if I knew finishing it wouldresult in being sick. Giving the survivor (or encouraging them tomake) lots of smaller portions is potentially an answer to that.

Progresshappens but it is slow and for both the survivor and the supportingcharacter it’s going to be partly about remembering overallprogress instead of focusing on bad days. There will be bad days andthere will be set backs. There’ll be times the coping skillsthey’re used to don’t work so well.

It’slittle things and little steps. For the supporting character it canbe incredibly intense and stressful experience, it canmean...essentially becoming a carer for a while. It’s difficultwork, necessary but difficult.

Ithink you’ll also find Scripttraumasurvivor’s recovery taghelpful. There’s a lot more advice there about hands on actionsyour character could take, ways of approaching conversations and whatthe experience of recovery feels like from both sides.

Ihope that helps. :)

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