#thinking about Larian saying to be careful about agreeing with everything

[biscuitkazoo]

Anyone else's Tav romancing Astarion without letting him feed off of them? Or is that just me?

[galedekarios]

Something something "Gale is a character who believes the world would be better with him dead and the player can show him that's not true" as a persistent theme of his character arc. *glares at Larian*

Honestly it feels like the Leads fell for the surface level part of Gale's arc. Like, all of them have that shallow impression that the characters themselves are trying to make you believe: Astarion wants you to think he's cruel and suave, Shadowheart is fine with the facade that she's a pawn of her lady of darkness, Lae'zel is brash and rude and initially intolerant of istik society, Wyll plays off the confident persona who has no regrets, Karlach is happy about everything all the time. And Gale's facade is that he's full of himself while simultaneously not being worth the effort.

The game ENCOURAGES you to break that illusion. Astarion's not a seductive wretch, he's scared and securing himself. Shaowheart's whole arc is about retaking her independence. Lae'zel comes to understand the beauty of the world outside what her queen wants. Wyll believes himself to be a perfect sacrifice for others' safety. Karlach is angry, REALLY angry, and terrified. And Gale is desperate to prove himself worthy of everyone's expectations of him, and to hide the mortal side of him he'd been told wasn't worth indulging in.

I feel like that's where the problem is. Gale's writer worked those flaws into Gale's character, with enough moments to show a player who's invested at all in him what the REAL reason is behind his actions, but the other writers didn't bother to invest anything into cracking that open. They took the persona he's trying to push at face value (that and probably not wanting to get on the bad side of the fans who think Gale's annoying due to *checks notes* Larian-side bugs).

Gale killing himself isn't the "right" ending where he "gives back to the world" - but that's what Gale THINKS the "right" ending is, before you prove him otherwise. The dryad test outright says that's what his greatest fear is.

Of COURSE Gale's going to think sacrificing himself for the greater good is the best option if you don't tell him you're willing to fight for him. It's literally the one insecurity that's been consuming his whole being since he got the Orb. Man's been planning his death for over a year. Thanks for not reading past the first page, lead writers.

Sorry for the rant, had to get this off my chest and you've had the most presence in the "why would you tell Gale to kill himself" discussion.

again, don't feel sorry for venting in my inbox! 🖤 i agree with a lot of what you said.

i've seen a lot of speculation as to why the devs said what they said. there is a deluge of posts trying to explain for a variety of reasons and coming up with their own scenarios: gale is supposedly comedic relief (hard disagree btw), they were maybe talking about ea gale, they were just talking about powerful messages, whathaveyou, and i have to say that at the end of the day it doesn't really matter why.

because even if that all was true, it means either one or a combination of the following things:

either they didn't care enough to delve deeper than the extreme surface level & current iteration of their own writing & character

or they parrot the worst reddit & twitter & tunglr talking points to be like how do you do fellow kids with their assumed fanbase

or they have some sort of internal bias

nevermind that the message they sent (intentionally or not) to people identifying with the character for his struggles still very much remains.

[eff-plays]

I saw a good video about Astarion being a subversion/deconstruction of the seductive vampire, and it seems that Larian themselves just want nothing to do with the subversion part, and neither do most of his “fans”. It’s really disappointing because his original writer was very purposeful with how he wrote him, but at this point I guess it’s futile to expect Larian to stick to anyone’s artistic vision if they’re not part of a fringe group on a forum threatening to doxx their employees.

This probably won't come as a surprise but I've seen Astarion "fans" (they were mostly AA fans to be fair, but some Spawn fans aren't totally innocent either) trying to argue his writer (Rooney) never intended for the character to be a deconstruction of the seductive vampire trope, in fact, he apparently always intended for Astarion to be an power hungry evil vampire who is into hedonism and debauchery no matter what, with no chance for redemption. They fully blame Welch and their personal agenda for how his story turned out after launch and for making Astarion's sexual trauma and SA past such a central part of his character and for his seductive persona to be nothing more than a mask...one of the reasons given for this was wanting to make the character more palatable to the general audience, and the GA only wants someone they can "fix", and not a real vampire. It's just insane to be honest.

These fans simply don't want an engaging or compelling story, especially if a hot looking character is involved. They just want something or someone to get off of to and that someone ain't the real Astarion you get after the confession, so they pretend the real him is not the real him, but the horny vampire he was in Act 1. I've honestly never seen a fandom so dead set onto ignoring the actual characterization of what they claim is their favorite character, and for what? Horniness, so they can keep pretending he's some sex obsessed dude? His fandom should be studied and I mean it, I'm sure any study will reach some very interesting conclusions.

And Larian are just hacks at this point, if they are so willing to constantly break their own canon for the sake of horny or loud fans on the internet, who don't care about the story, and some of which are STILL stalking their (former) employees and despite it, still have active accounts on their forums. I doubt I'll ever buy a game from them again, but if they do Early Access again for a future game, I'm seriously thinking of gathering other former disgruntled BG3 fans and demand they put some weird shit into that future game just for the sake of doing it. Again, given they're such hacks there is a high chance they'll be doing just that considering fan service is the most important thing for them. Who cares about artistic integrity, right?

By the way, thank you for posting that video!

Yeah I agree with everything you said, but it's hilarious to claim that Larian/Rooney made Astarion a pansexual male survivor of sexual abuse to make him more ... "palatable"? To a "general audience"?

Because what, their trying to make him into a hypermasc, hypersexual macho vampire is ... subversive? That's subversive? When they themselves indirectly basically admit they can't handle him not being what they want him to be? Lmao. Girlies. C'mon now.

Also Rooney literally said with his own mouth he wanted Astarion to be different from the vampire cliché. But they're saying he didn't want that? They're so unserious ldfdjghkdjfhd

[optiwashere]

I love all your analysis about Shadowheart, it helps a lot ! I agree with you, act 2 was great for her as it is but I'm curious how you experienced one moment in the game. It's when the party get out of the Shadowfell via a portal, then Shadowheart is momentarily captured by Shar to torture her.

In my run, when Shadowheart returned from this, Tav just told her, she's not alone, she has them, and Shadowheart just go throught and confessed her feelings and her desire to be together now and forever with Tav.

This use of forever was so abrupt from my pov, I really didn't expect it, at this moment.

And I wonder now, how did it go for Asheera ? And how did it go for you ?

I'm glad you're enjoying these posts! It helps me to break down these ideas for later fic writing purposes too, since I haven't been able to play the game for a while (ordering a second SSD so that I can just keep the damn thing installed permanently lol)

I went over the abruptness in this analysis essay thing last month! She definitely did the immediate confession in both of my playthroughs.

But the TL;DR is that I think she just had the illusion of Shar's "love" for her completely shattered, between her good-natured instincts struggling with the Nightsong being a tortured woman like Aylin and then her own torture, and after spending an entire Act keeping away from the PC she just pushes every emotion out at once. It feels abrupt because we don't live in her head, and when we as an origin playthrough do we obviously can't experience her romance.

A lot of this is extratextual analysis, but to ME that abrupt reaction feels as if she's frantically reaching for anything that openly, in her face, tries to be good to her.

The PC respects her boundaries without any argument or prodding or second-guessing, something that Sharrans just don't have. She lived in a cult compound for decades without any privacy except what she stole with Nocturne and the hiding place.

The PC might give her an Idol of Shar or bring Shadowheart her favorite flower as a gift without any expectations whatsoever. Sharrans don't do that. Everything is transactional or laced with double-meaning.

Throughout Act 2 she focuses entirely on her religion, and what does it get her? Hate and pain and betrayal and (with Aylin's help) later recognition that everything has always been a lie.

So why not try this thing that's staring her in the face that might be good? Why keep hiding herself?

For Asheera: in my fic canon, Asheera is an Oath of Redemption paladin (let us fucking pick it Larian! It's so fitting for this game!!!) so she's desperate during the entire Act 2 to push Shadowheart away from the Dark Justiciar path. She recognizes a blind zealot, but she doesn't want to hurt Shadowheart and just lets it go. There's the possibility that she actually breaks her oath there (fic fodder!) And there's a part of her that has to be ready to fight Shadowheart in the Shadowfell if things had gone differently.

As for the confession, I think Asheera is just terrified when Shadowheart's gone for that brief moment (at least brief in the Material Plane.) It's basically instant in-game, but I like to imagine it's a few breaths at least. Enough time for Asheera to wonder if she'd made a mistake, and when Shadowheart returns they're both just so relieved to be together all the confessions spill out of both of them.

Like, Asheera's thought process is basically: she actually did it. She threw away the goddess torturing her. I don't care what else happens now as long as she's safe. Oh? She says she wants to be together forever? *brain snaps in two like a twig*

And with that, I gotta go to work lmao

[vole-mon-amour]

Ascended Astarion is mean, scary, and twice as fake as he was at the beginning of the game. I mean, I've no doubt he doesn't fake it since he literally fully loses his soul after ascending, but that also shows how truly corrupted he becomes—and with no turning back at that.

I love a good villain & I enjoy that ascending him is also an option and I guess I can (in theory) understand why would someone want to go with that (I would try that once to see where it leads), but to think it's a good ending?

"I'm an ascended Astarion apologist. He loves me/my Tav/Durge" pawlease. He has no soul. He doesn't care for the player at all. If you try to break up with him, he is EVIL. Even his voice changes. He genuinely laughs when you try to break up with him cause he knows his power. It's full on manipulation and gaslight. "You're lucky I choose you to be by my side while I rule. You belong to me."

Such a contrast to spawn!Astarion that says he and the player are gonna be in this relationship and on this journey truly together, as equals.

As a bonus, when I think about ascended Astarion, I think about a response from Larian (?), something along the lines of "Congrats! You've failed to see the difference between an actual good choice and your own fantasy."

And honestly, there's a difference between blindly following/doing everything he wants to do (he sets himself for a failure in a way, even though to him it might seem like a good decision, and of course he doesn't care after losing his soul and thinks that what he's doing is right—cause there's no saving him after that) and recognizing that he's about to make a really bad decision and gently yet honestly tell him about that and let him think about that. Because in the end, he agrees that ascending isn't the right choice for him and that he's glad to keep himself, his soul, and to be the most self he can be at the moment.

[bg3fandomcritical-active]

"not every game needs romance, especially when its the only thing the fanbase cares about to the point they go feral over it"

i won't lie, I'm someone who absolutely loves romance & friendship dynamics in rpgs but i can agree with you on that. "not every game needs romance." you're right, but i feel like romance is super profitable. a lot of people play rpgs solely for romance, as you say. i don't see a problem with it but it does tend to be the loudest discussion of most conversation more than other critiques of the game, or any rpg for that matter. i do find that unfortunate.

the issue with the romance in bg3 is that larian themselves puts too much focus on it rather than everything else wrong in their game. hell, there's missing content that'll just never get added because the game is basically done (im mourning the nonexistent upper city map)

in this case however, while the story of bg3 is good, it was all of the companions who sold me on the game. it's always characters who draw me in before the story does and im sure it's like that for a lot of people which is another reason why romance gets talked about so much.

in short though, i think romance is always going to be a huge part of rpgs like bg3 cause its profitable, gets people talking about the game, and some hopeless romantics out there will play games like these solely for the romance before moving onto anything else.

.