#astarion discourse

[bananasfosterparent]

"Astarion can be a good person."

"Astarion can be vulnerable and tender, namely when he's exploring the concept of non-sexual intimacy."

and

"Astarion is a selfish and hedonistic vampire who has a penchant for evil."

are all statements that are true at the same time. Get you a man who can do it all.

I don't understand this black and white, flat way of interpreting Astarion's personality. He can be selfish and vulnerable. He can be hedonistic and do good deeds. He can be loving and cruel. All at once. All in different situations and in different ways. For different reasons and different people. Just like all the other characters in the game, Astarion isn't locked into one list of personality traits that follow strict rules based on which ending you choose. I'm so confused by players who praise the game for its depth in narrative and emotional response from characters YET also treat Astarion's endings as if they're just:

Hidden Heart of Gold trope guy VS a mustache twirling villain in an 80's cartoon. Or Zuko VS Christian Gray.

Viewing his endings that way just completely flattens out his entire canon personality in ALL routes.

Astarion isn't as different in his endings as some seem to think. It's just really baffling to me to ignore entire parts of his background and personality for more "favorable" ones. It's always fine for roleplay, but to say those things were never there canonly or can't be there for other players is the most bizarre behavior to me.

[monsters-and-macaws]

YOU KNOW WHAT? This post I’m manifesting only positive interactions.

Wyll will hold your hair back while you’re sick!!!

Karlach supports small businesses!!!

Gale helps fundraisers for libraries!!!

Shadowheart can do perfect winged eyeliner!!!!

Minthara can make the perfect workout schedule for anyone!!!

Astarion.

Lae’zel cuts perfect paper snowflakes!!!

Halsin knows how to properly recycle!!!

[bg3-bitching]

"Look, I had a plan. A nice, simple plan. Seduce you, sleep with you, manipulate your feelings so you'd never turn on me...All you had to do was fall for it...You deserve something real. I want us to be something real."

Translation:

"You were disposable until I realized I caught feelings for you and realized you're a person."

You guys find this shit romantic??? You guys find this moving??? I'm not here to be your trial run for being a decent person. I'm not here to rehabilitate shitty people. If there was an option I would stake the motherfucker on the spot. GOD have none of you had enough of men manipulating you??? Is this why you get off so much, because for once you actually can fix someone? Couldn't be, I have more self respect than that.

"You deserve something real." I deserved something real before you so graciously decided I was "worthy enough" to acknowledge my autonomy. You do NOT decide my worth. I'm sorry your own personal self worth is so low you don't think you're worthy of autonomy, but that's your own fucking problem to deal with. You mean you had to sexually assault me to see I was person, and since you didn't before that means you didn't sexually assault me? I wasn't a person before so the sexual violence doesn't count?? It's only now that you care for me I no longer deserve being sexually assaulted???

fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you FUCK YOU I WANT TO VIOLENTLY MURDER YOU LIKE YOU DESERVE. THE FIRST THING YOU DO AFTER GAINING FREEDOM FROM YOUR SEXUAL SLAVERY IS DEVISE A PLAN TO SEXUALLY ASSAULT SOMEONE. I WANT TO KILL YOU WITH MY BARE HANDS I FUCKING HATE YOU SO GODDAMN MUCH FUCK

[mrhrns]

Just remembered a few things that were flooding my mind for quite some time.

I never actually understood of why people were so surprised and taken aback of Ascended Astarion not accepting his partner fully transformed into illithid. Like... were everybody really expecting him, now being free from fearing opinions of other surrounding him and their judgement, to accept the very thing he despised from the very beginning, even before Ascending? There were so many times said personally by himself throughout the game that he hates mind flayers, he *isn't* a fan of tendrils, he sees them as monsters and has no desire to become one himself (of course, only Minthara out of all group eagerly accepts the astral tadpoles and dgaf, but the way Astarion tried to defend himself that he doesn't want to do something against his own will once more... I will never even look at that persuasion option in answer to make him change his mind).

Consider it more of my personal opinion, as always, or even my projection, but when I see spawn Astarion behaving right the opposite way, accepting illithid MC... I had been in toxic relationship where I had to accept the person's look just to stay together with them, fearing I will be left alone if I wouldn't. I can't view this as anything happy or even healthy. Of course, if I had therapy I could maybe have seen a different angle to it... But not now, obviously. (upd: my memory has twisted things a bit and it's better in game, skipping that part of my text wall.)

I don't think that this, however, has any real life associations, because it's not about something like losing your limb, your face, your mind etc, it's about turning into entirely different kind of creature, which is fantasy-only case. And seeing AA getting blamed as abuser for all of that is wild, as always.

Perhaps people stick to that "will you still love me if I was a worm (in this case, a squid)" too much, I don't know. AA definitely won't, not in the same way as before; nevertheless he still saves the connection between himself and MC. And I don't see a problem here. He doesn't have to pretend and he has all the freedom to say "no".

[gameguy20100]

BG3 Fandom logic.

Gale: So I've got a few issues with my ex. It's kind of complicated some would even say she abused or groomed me. I have mixed feelings about it.

Fandom: WOrst person ever! He should kill himself!

Wyll: I sold my soul to save the city I love. Now I struggle between my patrons desire and my devotion to the vow I swore to protect the innocent.

Fandom: Ugh, so boring and fake.

Astarion: So I sold several people into slavery including children. You might think I'd feel guilty about that but I don't, in fact I find slavery hilarious when it happens to other people. Oh also I was a slave myself, due to this I want to kill 7000 people, including children to complete a ritual so evil a literal devil says it's fucked up.

Fandom: Oh poor baby! If you have any issues with this you hate abuse victims and I hope you die!

[tavs-brainworm]

It frustrates me that so much of the Astarion discourse revolves around what it says about YOU as a player for ascending / not ascending him, instead of just… idk. Discussing and analyzing the text?

There’s so much to talk about with regard to Astarion’s character and development in both routes, but somehow the discussion always comes back to “the fictional ending you prefer reflects your personal moral character.” Shut up lol. I can’t tell you how uninterested I am in the moral purity of *checks notes* people on tumblr. I want to talk about ASTARION.

[seekingshereshoy]

I just blocked someone who was going on and on about Astarion obviously being a gay man and being pissed off that the fandom keeps trying to say he’s pansexual. But like. The writers and voice actor for this man all have stated he’s into people of all genders. You can be as pissed as you like about this, but effeminate men can be straight, bi, pan, ace, aro, etc.

And the thing is. Maybe he did mainly have male partners in the past. That wouldn’t be out of the question. If he presented as an effeminate man, I imagine a lot of gay men would be into that, whereas there would be less women actively seeking out that energy, but inexperience with women in those circumstances does not “prove” anything about him. He wasn’t seeking out people he was personally attracted to. He was seeking out the easiest marks. And I feel like refusing to acknowledge the fact that maybe he isn’t exactly who you think he is the moment you meet him takes a lot away from his character.

I don’t know. It just pisses me off that people really care that much about characters being a certain sexuality canonically, especially when it doesn’t come from a “but that means they wouldn’t be into me” point of view. He would be into you! That’s kinda the cool part of pansexual characters. You can imagine yourself with them no matter your gender. And I can’t imagine being legitimately upset about that.

[ikilledgods]

To the BG3 community, specifically to the Astarion fanbase, we need to come up with a new shorthand for Spawn Astarion.

I saw a youtube comment the other day that started with "I'm a fan of SA, but" and i was completely jumpscared until I realized what they meant.

So, yeah. New shorthand please.

[bananasfosterparent]

I saw some of the Reddit drama regarding the Astarion subreddits (the spawn sub vs. OF) and it's really saying a lot how most Spawn fans care more about AA/AA fans and being free to bash him however they see fit on the main sub, but allegedly the evil moderators are censoring their opinions and are not allowing AA criticism so they are transforming the UA sub into an anti AA one. It's amazing how they don't realize their criticism actually consists in telling AA fans they are abuse apologists who spread misinformation on purpose (the bride theory) and media illiterate lmao. Yeah, I wonder why that's not allowed on the main sub. Perhaps they should reflect on the state of their sub which can be resumed to "I like UA because fuck AA and AA fans".

Heh... funny I got a message about this when I did, because I was quietly observing the drama when it happened. Well, sort of drama. Really, just the usual cliched "anti-AA person must save the igorant AA fans from their own selves via condescending and patronizing vagueposting" situation.

For context... An anti-AA person made posts to a few Astarion and BG3 subs, challenging the validity of the bride theory with zero context or reason, which unsurprisingly fostered negativity and arguments. They had other negative comments on semi-related posts which didn't make their case better. Then they argued with the OF mods about their arguing with other users and was banned after reporting others out of spite.

But looks like the person tried to run to the spawn sub to get validation for arguing with the mods, but I don't think it went very well lol

From what I could observe, they got a lot of downvotes and even comments directly calling them (and their aggression) out. People admitted they joined to gush over Spawn and their Tavs, not seethe over AA and his fans. It was quite refreshing to see. Even moreso, seeing the mods of the sub create a new rule to not dogpile on the mods of other BG3 subs. So perhaps the situation is getting better.

Still strange that "a place to talk about AA as an abuse narrative" is one of the main focus rules of that sub, buuut I'll take the small victories. Any time people are pointing out the AA fan witch-hunt nonsense as what it is (nonsense), it means there's a positive shift happening.

Unfortunately (especially in creative realms), there will always be argumentive people who just want to argue that their vision and perspective is the only one that matters/exists, and they believe it too. But maybe the direct heat on AA fans will die down or... Die out completely (one can wish 😩).

That said! That whole situation makes me wonder...

A gaggle of anti-AA Redditers were suspended from the site for brigading (organized downvoting) of positive AA posts and comments. I'm wondering if the user who made that rant post is one of them with a fresh account. The timeline kinda match up and they bring up the same exact talking arguing points 🤔

Idk, but for now I'm glad to see normal spawn fans speaking up against the anti-AA nonsense finally. I think it's at the point everyone is just getting sick of it lol

[monsters-and-macaws]

i KNOW astarion being all flirty is a trauma response but my trauma response to his trauma response is to bash him over the head with a rock

YOU GET IT!!!

It’s worth a disclaimer that I don’t hate his character design- He behaves like an interesting and well developed person.

I just hate him.

As a person, I cannot stand him. I have dealt with too many folks who use their tragic backstory as a means to excuse their behavior instead of just explaining it, as Astarion seems to fall in to. He’s a raging flirty asshole, and while it makes sense, he needs to go to medieval therapy like the rest of us and learn how to interact with other adults now that he’s allowed to.

He hasn’t had a normal person interaction in two decades. But he doesn’t seek out the means to better. He wants to be worse. He wants to curl into himself and be everything that’s spat at him. He’s self destructive and he brings down my vibes, bro.

All the characters deal w their trauma different but this bro just really stinks up the hot tub :(

[i-am-mldy]

As someone who has only recently finished their first playthrough, in which I romanced Astarion, I'm admittedly new to the discourse surrounding his character.

But I just want to add some nuance to the conversation because I see it always get lost in the "straights vs lgbt" wars that seem to litter every social media app these days.

We all know the facts: Yes, Astarion is canonically queer. Yes, he can like women.

As a straight cishet woman, I was admittedly defensive over other fans' annoyance that most fan content of Astarion seem to only appeal to straight cishet women. I was quick to join the camp of "Astarion is pan so ofc he can be attracted to women!"

Now that I've had time to think, I now see where they're coming from. They feel that Astarion's queer identity would be ignored and lost. I'm not taking any sides, and I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying it's a concern that shouldn't be dismissed easily just because it's more comfortable for us to do so.

Instead of responding defensively and with vitriol, it would be more productive to meet them where they're at. At the end of the day, queer people still are a marginalized minority. Instead of reacting defensively, we should be more mindful with the fact that Astarion as a character has many facets to him, and with that comes perspectives that might be new to us.

[bg3-bitching]

Hot Take that's gonna get me sent to the gallows:

Of the male companions, Gale is actually the best example of a "messy, imperfect victim".

Astarion is a better example of "thinking they're above perpetuating the cycle of abuse".

[qwainte]

My little post about Astarion fans trashing Wyll attracted an extremely strange and troubling anon ranting about Ascendant Astarion despite my post never mentioning AA once, so I want to make my stance on AA clear as this isn't the first time someone in my inbox accused me of being a fandom "puritan":

I do legitimately like Ascendant Astarion. I typically go for the spawn ending as I usually play "good" characters but I definitely understand AA's charm and I'm not immune to it. I think both endings are satisfying conclusions to his character arc, albeit for different reasons. AA makes for a really good corruption arc that doesn't feel forced or OOC.

Fandom content should never be obligated to appeal to canon, so writing content where AA is "nice" and not purely evil doesn't bother me one bit. And while I sometimes make fun of mods that make AA more friendly, I don't actually hate them at all. Fan content is supposed to be self-indulgent, source material be damned.

What I do have a problem with is when fans think that their warped interpretation of a character and their story should be acknowledged by the official creator(s) and catered to.

I'm not talking about disagreeing with or critiquing the quality of a story/character. I'm talking about fans who fundamentally refuse to engage with a work of art within its framework and expect creatives to prioritize fanservice over crafting a story or experience. It makes zero sense story wise for the writers of BG3 to portray Astarion's ascension as a "neutral" or "good" choice. The "cycle of abuse" isn't some crackpot theory spawn stans came up with, it's a legit motif that is present in Astarion's story. You don't have to like it, but at least acknowledge that it's there and respect the writers' decision to tell this particular story and not your own.

To make things even clearer:

I do not care if astaristan101xoxo wants to write fluffy headcanons about AA

I do not care if astaristan101xoxo writes a 100k story where AA is basically Vlad Tepes Dracula in Faerûn.

I do not care if astaristan101xoxo doesn't t like the moral dilemma of the ritual decision.

I do not care if astaristan101xoxo likes the Ascension ending.

I do care if astaristan101xoxo inserts themselves into discussions and healthy discourse about Astarion and derails them by focusing on their personal feelings and attachment to him and completely ignoring story and framing.

I do care if astaristan101xoxo obnoxiously comments "Its not that deep, lmao" on posts where the OP is trying to honestly engage with Astarion's story.

I do care if astaristan101xoxo makes 30+ posts on Larian forums demanding that AA receives a full rewrite that radically changes the entire theming of his character arc to better replicate a generic power fantasy with no in-text moral implications and acts like they are a persecuted minority when they discover that the majority of the fanbase does not share this view.

I do care if astaristan101xoxo waxes lyrically about Larian "removing player choice" and "bad DMing" because their PC frowns while being choked and degraded by Astarion but IMMEDIATELY shuts up about all this once they change the PC's expression to be smiling in patch 7.

Inb4 someone claims I'm "policing" completely harmless behaviors: I'm not policing anyone. You can do and say whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting anybody, just like I'm allowed to find your specific behaviors really annoying and unpleasant.

[villainbait]

after reading the commentary the writer recently made for astarion’s ‘bad ending’ it’s very obvious they have no scope of understanding what it’s like to have your autonomy forcibly stripped from you for a prolonged length of time and the way you would choose ‘safety’ in the form of power so no one could ever hurt you again. In the modern world this looks like buying a gun, learning specialized self-defense, etc.

Its obvious the writer doesn’t understand or didn’t consider that so many trauma survivors (myself included) picked that option as the ultimate form of catharsis and not because they only saw him as a sex object. That’s why the sequence of scenes after I chose to ascend him were so jarring to me and gave me such bad whiplash because one of Astarion’s underlying themes the entire time is how he is almost desperately seeking power to feel safe. It feels bad and didn’t make sense once we helped him obtain that power that he suddenly treats us as some weird pet that only degrades ourself for him.

To push the narrative that the only ‘good ending’ is one where he heals by staying as he is is almost harmful to trauma survivors because it makes us feel like we are healing ‘wrong’ if we seek safety in the form of power instead of seeking comfort, love, and choosing the morally just path. The idea that these things are the only right way to heal is wrong.

I’m even more disappointed knowing that the writer used that ending to basically ‘teach’ certain players a lesson instead of doing something more thoughtful or at least thought provoking. It just feels petty and shallow after reading the comments that were made and they could’ve went in different directions to stay more in line with his story. I hope they consider a rewrite or an adjustment after receiving the feedback they have.

[gameguy20100]

I think showing so much favouritism to any character is annoying. but the fact it's Astarion makes it so bad.

The guy supports slavery, and thinks murdering children is funny!

He's a manipulative, abusive arsehole and never shows any remorse for anything he's done. He sold children into human trafficking and feels no guilt over it! He even makes jokes about it! He want's to kill 7000 people who are just as much victims as him, including the children he kidnapped for his own power. It's just so bad. I have nothing to say but bad, bad, bad, bad, BAD!!

[melissagt]

Why can't Astarion fans just get along? They both love the character. Does it really matter who is right and who is wrong? Does it really matter how one person plays the game compared to the next person? Stop fighting and just let each other enjoy the character. Choices are in the game for a reason...to be played. I got chased away from the Dragon Age fandom because of how I enjoyed Cullen's character and that was almost 10 years ago.

And I see fandom still hasn't grown up in the least.

I'm too old for this shit.

I just want to play the game and enjoy another character I've grown to love.

P.S. I have artwork of Astarion coming out at some point this weekend. Both Ascended and Spawn fans alike can enjoy it.