#tlj meta

[the-force-awakens]

Thoughts on Poe and his relationship with the force? For me, especially in the comics, it's always been one of the most interesting explorations of a non-force user connecting deeply with the force. I keep coming back to Poe's speech at L'ulo's funeral and just sit in awe of the writing for a good for minutes.

Oh, I have so many thoughts on Poe and his relationship with the Force, and a lot of them always go back to that scene in the comics, and something Oscar said in an interview ahead of the Force Awakens:

He knows about Luke and Han. But his family - he comes from a long line of rebel fighters, as well. So he’s committed totally to the Resistance. He believes in the Force. (source)

So, one thing that they seemed to have landed on from the get-go, is that Poe believes in the Force - enough that, y'know, he mentions it as part of his speech at L'ulo's funeral, and one thing stands out to me:

These days, we don't talk about the Force that much. I don't know if it's gone out of fashion, or if it's just harder to see around us. It was different for me growing up. We used to tell stories about the Force all the time.

Which sounds to me like 'believing' in the Force here, doesn't just mean Poe knows it exists, but that he possibly believes in it the way Lor San Tekka and the Church of the Force might - like it's part of Poe's religion. I mean, consider how excited he is to meet Lor San Tekka, and how much Tekka knows - the Force means a lot to Poe, and shapes his worldview.

The rest of my thoughts are technically not disproven by canon, but are the kind of extrapolation that's definitely more "headcanon" than anything:

I think Poe's relationship with the Force is interesting because of how much the Force is seeped into his story, and not just in the sense that Poe believes in the Force in a seemingly religious way: there's the fact that Poe first hears Leia in Free Fall, just outside/around a set of old religious ruins (because Kijimi used to be a religious site, back when). There's the fact that we meet Poe in a village filled with people who do worship the Force, and that it's canon (or semi-canonical) that Poe taps into it on Takodana while flying.

(I think Poe taps into it a lot, actually, if we look at how uncannily intuitive he can be...or the way he can easily dodge blaster fire while running into battle....or how in tune he can be with his wingmen - there's a shot in TLJ of him moving in perfect synchronicity with C'ai, during the briefing with Holdo, that I never noticed. Poe does it with more people than just Finn, apparently, and that fascinates me.)

But I also find it...particularly interesting that Poe is present (or nearby) a lot of the times when Force Sensitives first tap into the Force. He's in the village when Finn connects to it for the first time properly (I'm assuming that's the moment, anyway, since Ren has such a profound reaction to Finn), and - well Rey's a little more shaky, since he's vaguely sort of around, flying on Starkiller, when she fully embraces the Force. But then in Terrifying Tales, he's there when Dean connects to it for the first time as well....

I don't think Poe is properly Force Sensitive, I don't see him being able to lift anything, or stuff like that. But I think the Force loves him, and I think it might get a little stronger around him (hence the above with the Force Sensitives). The Force does just...move strangely around him, I think - he grew up with a Force-sensitive tree in his back yard, he's the right hand of one of the last Jedi in the galaxy (even if she quit training), he's tapped into the Force before while flying (probably more than once, if we're being honest, considering no one in the gffa flies anything remotely like Poe), and there's the very interesting scene in TLJ that - sure, proves that Poe is as good a tactician and leader as Leia - has Poe and Leia come up with the same plan, at the same exact time, from opposite ends of the ship...which is then immediately followed up with Leia having a Force Bond moment with Ren.

And then there's the torture scene. Ren doesn't go easy on him. In the novelization, it's described as "silent agony". In Battlefront II, we see precisely what it's like for the person on the receiving end, and Del does give up the information that Ren needs. In Kenobi, we see Reva get what she needs within seconds.

Ren doesn't...get anything from Poe. According to a Topps Card:

Kylo Ren tortures Poe Dameron in an attempt to extract any information about the Resistance's plans and the map to locate Skywalker. Poe manages to keep the location of the Resistance base a secret, but is in so much pain, he cannot mask his thoughts about BB-8 having the information [source].

By all rights, according to what we've seen in Star Wars and of non-Force Sensitives being interrogated for information...Poe shouldn't have been able to keep anything from Ren. But he did, even while under excruciating agony. Consider how many Resistance secrets are in Poe's head - he knows not just the location of the base, but likely the location of most of their spies considering that Resistance shows that Poe is the one to keep contact with them.

And there's the fact that Poe's torture is something that canonically reverberates throughout the Force, since Ezra hears his voice in the World Between Worlds episode of Star Wars Rebels ("The Resistance will not be intimidated by you").

So, I don't know. I think Poe worships the Force, and I definitely don't think he's a passive agent to it, I do think that he influences it to some degree, and that it influences him to some degree. I think the Force loves Poe right back, and that push and pull dynamic is so interesting to me when so many of the people in his life are Force Sensitive....

and it's utterly heartbreaking to consider that Poe's first experience with it, was on Jakku and the Finalizer, assuming Leia had never used it around him before (which I do find a little doubtful, and I like to think he's seen her do some Force stuff before, but if we wanna go the angsty route lmao...), and that something that he loves and worships, and possibly loves him right back, was then weaponized against him.

[moody-avocado]

Since I am still salty about this

Every time I see a Reylo post, I get reminded just how much I hated the ending of TROS, which includes the abrupt change in Rey’s character, so here’s rant & some lists/meta.

I am still very annoyed by Rey's reaction to Ben' death, so here’s a list of 5 times Rey was grieving or was at least extremely concerned about someone’s well-being vs. TROS ending. The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, and The Rise of Skywalker are all there. Daisy Ridley is an amazing actress, and this has nothing to do with her.

I am also including a second list of all the times Rey expressed concern and compassion for Ben, almost all of which were more emotionally intense and satisfying than her reaction to his death.

Rewatching all these scenes has reminded me what a sweet character Rey is; she expresses her emotions so easily and is really in touch with her feelings. The ending of TROS is so out of character for her. Making these lists has also reminded me just how frequently Rey experienced tragedy over the course of the three movies.

I wish Ben lived, of course.

Please keep in mind that a good part of this post talks about character deaths in Star Wars, so please proceed with caution. You might find the content triggering; I have used all the trigger warnings/“tw” tags that I could think of.

Let’s go.

1-2 - TFA

1. Han dies

At this point, Rey barely knows Han (I think she has known him for exactly one day here), and still, this is her reaction to him being stabbed/thrown off the bridge. She gets easily attached to people and that she cares deeply. Rey yells, she cries.

Interestingly, her grief lasts in TFA - this is her returning to the Resistance base after Han’s death:

For contrast, here is Rey returning to the Resistance base after Ben Solo’s death; they had known each other for some time and had a very complex relationship, where they were both vulnerable with each other/bonded through the Force, saved each other’s lives multiple times, and were in love/attracted to each other:

It’s almost scary how quickly she gets over the whole thing.

2. Finn get injured

This scene lasts for a a pretty long time - unlike the segment where Ben disappears/dies and Rey is alone. When it comes to the emotional reaction, while you can argue that Rey is aware that she may die as well (the planet is collapsing), and that that adds to her sadness and concern, it’s still pretty clear that she cares about Finn deeply. She is again crying, and she also starts hugging him almost immediately after she finds him passed out.

Bonus - we can feel the despair in this shot of the gloomy forest:

There was nothing to even symbolically indicate Rey’s profound sadness/loneliness/despair after Ben dies. She does end up alone in a desert, but this is presented both as a happy event and unrelated to her Force dyad soulmate dying. The return to the desert was also awful, but that’s a rant for another time.

This is also a beautiful and very dramatic shot:

This TFA scene would make me think that Rey cares more about Finn, even after knowing him for a very short time and very superficially, than she does about Ben at the end of the trilogy, if I were to compare her “shrug emoji” reaction to this one. However, I would assume that she cares about someone that she shares a connection that spans across space and time and that she is in love with, and a person she met that day, who is admittedly very likeable and who has helped her, in equal measure, at least.

Like with Han, this is Rey still being concerned after they get back to the Resistance base; she is reaching out to see if Finn is alright:

3 - TLJ

3. Luke’s death

Luke dies in this one. Rey talks about it with Leia, and says that it was peaceful and purposeful, which I believe is meant to, in part, explain why they are both not grieving more than this:

Please keep in mind that what I say in this paragraph is completely within the confines of the movies/the narrative and fantasy - it does not apply to real life. I guess that something along those lines could be applied to Ben’s death in TROS - that it was with a purpose - saving Rey. However, I just cannot compare Luke - who had a much longer life and a much less tormented existence overall, and who sacrificed himself to “right the wrong that he did”, which was “creating Kylo Ren” in the first place - dying to save the Resistance, to his nephew dying after he knew happiness for probably the first time in his life, after decades of abuse. A digression, but here is Luke vs. Ben, who is shaking, around the time when they made the decision to sacrifice themselves:

TROS had one of the most depressing movie endings I have ever seen.

4-5 - TROS

4. Rey accidentally zaps the ship that she thought Chewbacca was in

I have no idea how close Rey and Chewbacca are, but here’s how she reacts when she is convinced that Chewie is dead:

5. Leia

Leia dies and Rey senses it in the Force. This is probably the most miserable we ever see Rey. She has just lost her mother figure - it is difficult to watch:

Ok, now Rey expressing concern for Ben:

1. TFA - planet collapsing

This is a subtle one, and she is either concerned (she left Kylo Ren/Ben to die, injured) or she is intrigued by their meeting and is reflecting on it (some third option is a possibility - for example, she noticed a ship come pick him up):

2. TLJ - Ben explains to Rey that Luke tried to kill him

She calls him a liar, and while she might also be crying because she is shocked to learn such a thing and is disappointed in Luke, she is clearly sad about the whole thing:

3. TLJ - Rey is mad that Luke tried to kill Ben

Rey is protective when it comes to the people (and droids) she cares about. You could argue that in this scene she is angry about all the events that stemmed from “Luke creating Kylo Ren”, and that that’s why she is in fight mode. Still, it’s shown that she has developed some feelings for Ben:

4. TLJ - Rey sees Kylo getting strangled during the Throne room fight:

5. TLJ - The “you are breaking my heart! You are going down a path that I can't follow” moment:

6. TROS - Rey healing Ben

While she is still overwhelmed and crying due to Leia’s passing, Rey turns towards Ben (my interpretation is that she is also wondering what his feelings concerning his mother’s death are, due to their strained relationship) and then looks at his wound:

Rey informs Ben that she wanted to take his hand after she is done healing him:

She shifts from grieving for Leia, to grieving the relationship that she could have had with Ben.

7. TROS - Rey realizing Ben has arrived to help her fight Palpatine

I love this moment ^

I think that all of these moments show that Rey does care about Ben, deeply. These are her reactions to events that are not as final as his death.

And finally - Ben dying:

The way this scene is presented, it really seems that Rey is frowning primarily because she is confused - she doesn’t understand why Ben is acting all weird:

Rey when she comprehends that Ben is dead:

That’s it. There is no screaming, crying, trying to hold him, nothing.

And then

She doesn’t even mention Ben dying to anyone (there is no discussing Luke’s death-type scene). I am presuming that she has to bring it up, and fast, since this is also the Supreme Leader who has just died, she is the only one who knows for certain he is dead, and Rey and all her friends are... politically involved, but this probably happens off-screen then.

I could add that Rey holds a sort of a funeral for Leia and Luke (burying the lightsabers), but that she does not do anything similar for Ben.

If you have made it to the end of the post, please let me know what your thoughts are!

Thanks for reading, This has been therapeutic.

I do not own any of the materials used/any of the characters, entertainment purposes only.

[raisedbythetv89]

Some of my favorite visuals from TLJ about Rey’s journey specifically

down the rabbit hole

through the looking glass

her face being lit from beneath when she foretells snoke of his own demise

all the glossy facades of her environment have been burned to the ground as she confronts the reality she’s still with kylo ren and ben solo did not return

[tranakin-skywalker]

I'm pretty sure I've admitted it on here before, but I actually do really love The Last Jedi. I think it's a really good movie! Well made, well acted, beautifully shot, the characters and their development is compelling. I enjoy it!

I do not, however, think it's a very good Star Wars movie.

[chuckduckling]

Okay, so, as established in my previous meta post, Shen Jiu and Luo Bingge are parallels, right? And Scum Villain is all about how Bingge and Bingmei diverge based on the interference of a moderately responsible adult in LBH’s youth, riiight?

Thus, I must always promote one of my favorite dynamics: Shen Yuan transmigrating as a key adult figure in SJ’s childhood.

Like, just imagine it. SJ, the maladjusted little tyke. He's a tiny hungry terror of the streets, with a cute cherubic face that can cry on demand.

Then you've got him paired with SY, the exasperated caretaker. He’s a modern man out of his depth, but he copes with sarcasm and has a debilitating soft spot for abused little meow meows who grow up to commit atrocities.

It's my favorite fic flavor between them. Please they’d be so funny together, they’d piss each other off so much, they’d bond in spite of all their best efforts, it'd be good for the both of them, I’m obsessed with this idea, listen, okay—

[tarisilmarwen]

Why is Luke's characterization in TBOBF Chapter 6 considered OOC and character assassination when it is fully in-line with Jedi teachings? (Even if it was written by Lord Darth Dave Felonious and was clearly framed in a bad light because of that)

That... is a complicated story that basically boils down to two things:

1. A long-standing fandom-wide misinterpretation of Jedi philosophy and teachings.

2. Fandom nostalgia and attachment to Legends EU material. (That's pre-Disney-buyout Expanded Universe books/comics/games/whatever wasn't the six OG films. Note that EU material operated on a nebulous and often contradictory tier system of canon and could be overwritten at any time by Lucas himself on the "G tier".)

See, fandom conflates "attachment" with "any close or intimate interpersonal relationship whatsoever" and think the Prequel Order's prohibition on marriage is stupid so they basically have this whole insidious pervasive fanon where Jedi aren't allowed to love or have friends or express feelings/emotions and therefore they adore and One True Jedi Luke for "bucking" all of that and having compassion and saving his father and his friends with The Power Of Love or some shit and for allowing the members of his new Jedi Order to marry and have families.

A good chunk of the material about Luke's New Jedi Order, it should be noted, was written before the Prequel Trilogy came around and clarified how the Jedi Order of old actually operated (more monastic and structured, under the Senate's authority). And people... did not like that the portrayal of the Jedi in PT contrasted with the EU material they were reading and preferred Luke's Order to the seemingly more sterile and esoteric Prequel Order.

And thus emerged the first roots of the fanon idea that the Prequel Jedi were supposed to be portrayed as Having Things Wrong and that Luke, being of course the One True Jedi, came along and "fixed" things with his new order.

You can see now how people who were operating under this fanon framework came to decry Luke's The Last Jedi portrayal as him having "repeated the mistakes" of the old Order. (That's not why TLJ Luke was OOC but that is a rant for another day my friend.)

TBOBF Luke, being in line with the Prequel Jedi philosophy of "attachment bad, this is a serious commitment and you can't half-ass it, you gotta be 100% in on this" is seen as a continuation of the "bad characterization" established for him in The Last Jedi, because again, Luke is supposed to be the One True Good Jedi Who Fixed Everything Wrong About The Old Order.

Even though the things that fandom thinks were wrong about the old Order weren't actually problems, for the most part, because "attachment" =/= "love" and Lucas has been clear and explicit about this from the beginning, attachment is the fear of loss and the inability to let go. Not "romantic relationships", not "family and friends", it has a very specific connotation in the Star Wars universe and people are very stubborn about ignoring that fact in favor of their preferred fanon interpretation.

Full disclosure I haven't actually seen TBOBF so I'm unclear about the tone of Luke's portrayal but just from what I've seen in gifs it seemed honestly more neutrally portrayed than negative. (Though given Filoni's track record of being mostly in-line with Lucas aside from annoying moments of, "Well but weren't the Prequel Jedi just a little bit in the wrong?"/"Isn't attachment just a little bit good sometimes?" I wouldn't put it past him to lean that way.) And you're right, nothing Luke said or did is out of step with Jedi teachings.

It's just that fandom doesn't like/doesn't understand Jedi teachings so they don't like Luke adhering to them.

[fantastic-nonsense]

@supersaiyanjedi14 "both sides are bad" When did that ever happen? The closest thing we get to somethign like that is DJ (a sellout who isn't supposed to be taken as objective) remarking that the ship they stole belonged to someone selling weapons to both sides (which says more about the arms dealer than the two sides) and Luke denegrating the Jedi (something he changes his mind about by the end). Everywhere else? The First Order are blatantly bad and the Resistance are blatantly good

Okay, let me lay this out a bit more in-depth. I could go into the Luke-Jedi stuff (which would mostly be me ranting about how Rian took away all the wrong things from the prequel trilogy, ignored the elephant in the room that is Palpatine, and leaned into the whole victim-blaming "the Jedi deserved to be genocided" nonsense for no reason other than he needed to create needless drama between Luke and Rey that justified him refusing to teach her), but I'm going to focus on DJ since that was the original point of my post.

This is what DJ says in that scene:

Finn: At least you're stealing from the bad guys…and helping the good. DJ: Good guys, bad guys…made-up words. Let's see who formally owns this gorgeous hunk. [holoscreen powers up, starts to show a slideshow of weapons] This guy was an arms dealer. [screen shows a TIE Fighter] Made his bank selling weapons to the bad guys. [screen flips to show an X-wing] Oh, and the good ones. Finn, let me learn you something big. It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join.

DJ is explicitly stating a kind of extreme amoral centrist perspective here: "there's no such thing and good guys or bad guys. Don't join either side." And to back up his claim, he shows Finn evidence of capitalists profiting off of both sides of the war.

Okay, cool. Capitalism and war profiteering are bad. Great high school level deduction. But this is Star Wars; usually, everything has a larger purpose (even if it's not executed particularly well). So why does DJ get to say "there's no such thing as good guys or bad guys" and have that claim remain unexamined and uncritiqued for the rest of the movie considering that the conflict between the Resistance and First Order is, all things considered, pretty black and white? Finn and Rose are both characters who have been directly harmed by the First Order's actions (Finn through being kidnapped, brainwashed, and raised as a child soldier, Rose through the exploitation of her planet and the sacrifice of her sister). And yet they have nothing to say to DJ about this?

After all...like you said, throughout the rest of TLJ the Resistance is portrayed as pretty unquestionably "the good guys." Unlike in say...Rogue One, where the darker and dirty side of fighting a guerilla war is both showcased and remarked upon on multiple times (both via Cassian and Saw Gerrera), the Resistance isn't shown to be using any questionable tactics or purposefully dealing under the table. And unlike the prequel trilogy, there's no messy, complex background political conflict underpinning the fight against the First Order. So why do we get an out-of-nowhere "both sides" subplot that ultimately says nothing and goes nowhere?

Yeah, sure, DJ's a traitor and a sellout. We're not supposed to like him or think he's right. But what he says is never actually discussed or refuted other than a prefunctory "you're wrong" from Finn later on in the film, when he sells them out to the First Order:

Finn: You murdering bastard! DJ: Oh, t-take it easy, Big F. They blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow. This is just business. Finn: You're wrong. DJ: Maybe.

Again, none of what he says is ever actually examined. Sure, he's a bad guy, but why spend so much time with his character, dialogue, and actions to do nothing with it? Especially considering he's functionally an unnecessary character Finn and Rose never should have run into to begin with (since he's not the hacker they were sent to Canto Bight to find and they never actually talked to the one they were supposed to bring with them)?

We could just say "eh DJ is wrong, don't listen to him," but why is he here in the first place? What is the narrative function of letting DJ run around saying the things he does and acting the way he does, especially when he gets off scot-free for doing it? It never comes up again. He basically says his speech, betrays Finn and Rose, runs off with his money, and is then promptly ignored. There's no follow-through. It just adds more elements that are never addressed.

Unlike Han Solo, who is explicitly called out by Leia in A New Hope for being "mercenary" and ultimately comes back to help the Rebellion and destroy the Death Star, DJ just betrays Finn and Rose, takes his money, and leaves. Unlike Jyn "I’ve never had the luxury of political opinions" Erso, who slowly shakes off her own political amorality to join the Rebellion and sacrifice herself on Scarif, DJ's opinion never changes. Unlike the various small-time antagonists we get throughout the PT, OT, and anthology movies, there's no coherent personal narrative going on that explains why he's there. And if DJ's supposed to act as the devil to Rose's angel on Finn's shoulder about his own place in the Resistance, what purpose do his words actually serve except to set up a moment of doubt (mind you, in an ex-child soldier's mind about fighting the group that literally enslaved him) which is never explored or brought up again because the conflict in practice is so blatantly black and white?

That entire plot thread also doesn't make much sense just on a basic practical level. The First Order isn't buying and selling weapons; they're building their own stuff and taking what they aren't. Meanwhile, the Resistance is canonically a splinter paramilitary group that isn't funded by the New Republic and is both a) made up of ex-New Republic ships, re-purposed Rebellion-era weaponry, and personal fighters and b) so poor that they can't even re-fuel their own ships, and yet we're supposed to believe they're buying stuff from Canto Bight's profiteering weapons manufacturers?

This conflict has also been going on in the MAJOR background for less than 5 years; the New Republic was canonically peaceful, prone to appeasement, and had a policy of non-aggression toward the First Order (at the time, a well-funded but fringe terrorist organization operating out of the Unknown Regions). The Resistance was actively avoiding engaging in open conflict with the First Order until Starkiller due to their lack of resources and firepower. When TLJ starts, "the war" has been going on for two days. Reasonably, there's no private military-industrial complex for anyone to profit from in this particular conflict. This entire subplot comes out of nowhere, goes nowhere, and makes little practical sense for the canon that had been laid out at the time.

So what we get left with is a character whose entire narrative purpose in the movie is to give a "both sides are bad, good guys and bad guys don't exist" speech without any of the ideas he actually discusses being examined in any way, shape, or form. Meanwhile viewers are promptly shunted straight back into Resistance vs. First Order dogfights like everything's just business as usual and we didn't just spend a whole hour with DJ and his amoral centrist nihilism. Within the narrative the sequel trilogy tells, DJ is right: the Resistance blows up Starkiller in TFA, then the First Order blows up the Resistance throughout TLJ before getting semi-blown up themselves on Crait, and then the Resistance blows them up again in TROS. What else are we supposed to take from DJ's presence in a story that is determined to either ignore his words without addressing them...or prove him right?

And all this in a movie about fighting space fascists that released the year after Donald Trump got elected. It's narratively incoherent, politically irresponsible, and blatantly out-of-place in a Star Wars movie.

[sirikenobi12]

For the people arguing that they don't understand how I can have issues with "sad Luke" in TLJ, but love "sad Ben" in OWK I'll give you the reason... Because we didn't get SAD Luke, we got grizzled/conspiracy theorist/Nihilistic Luke who blamed the prequel Jedi Order for everything.

Ben (at least so far - don't do it, Disney) blames HIMSELF. He doesn't blame the teachings of the Order, he feels like he personally couldn't stop what happened.

Believe me, I wanted "sad Luke" I wanted the angst and to see a deep character arc, I wanted moments like we've already seen in OWK, moments of grief and remorse, of interpersonal reflection.

So far with Ben I want to wrap him up in a warm blanket,give him a hot meal and hug him, because he is a broken shell of a man...with TLJ Luke I felt like my crazy Uncle came to dinner spouting off reasons society "failed" my generation.

And that's my reason for liking one and not the other. They are not the same.

[drunk-on-starlight]

So Ahsoka was having mental issues with anakin's fall, meaning she didn't actually want to live. Her fear of being what Baylon said she was meant she was always going to lose that fight, because in many ways star wars is about belief; Luke has faith and trusts the force, destroying the Death Star. Rey has belief and trusts the force and defeats Kylo Ren(1). Ahsoka doubts herself and so she loses.

The reason she was reluctant to train Grogu and Sabine is a result of letting fear of herself stop her from truly comitting, which ties back into Anakin's fall to the dark side.

This is shown when she indirectly tells anakin that all he taught her was war, and that's all he and therefore she was. Her ultimate stand is deciding that no, she wants to live and that they were both more than that. That's why she changes robes from gray to white(2), it's her recommiting herself.

[swinging-stars-from-satellites]

ONCE AGAIN THINKING ABOUT LEGACIES

[theweeklydiscourse]

If the “fanboys” can use fanfiction published books to back up their claims and arguments for what they support, why can the opposite group (who supports the sequel films and the actors who play those characters) not use the books written about the sequel characters for their own evidence? Since Ben Solo is the character of the moment, his earliest moments were documented in detail in books that are essentially published fanfiction by contract. Those books talk about how Palpatine groomed him in the womb and Leia felt darkness that she couldn’t get rid of, and how as a toddler Ben wanted to a pilot like his father but both of them prioritized their own careers instead and he nearly died by the household droids. It’s not in the films or comic books so it’s not valid. Really? That’s the argument against creators invested in his character and backstory? There’s also the comic book writer Charles Soule who made an attempt to cover the backstory featured in the Last Jedi film, and claimed that Adam Driver was his ghost writer. Considering that comic storyline took a left turn into a dozen different galaxies and is still traveling, it’s impossible to rationalize that any film arc would be parallel to the equivalent dumpster fire that the comics turned out to be. Because at the time that was released, the episode 9 script was not available to anyone including actors.

It’s okay to have a head canon that fills in the gaps between what a film shows and what it doesn’t. But when the head canon goes completely off script to become the opposite of the film information, that’s when there is a problem. It doesn’t benefit anyone when fans (not the narcissist fanboys) are attacked, by the same people who say they share beliefs, for defending head canons and source material that runs parallel to the films and what we are given of specific characters and their dynamics, instead of an idea that is 3 million separate solar systems away. At the same time, alot of the struggles that Ben Solo went through are not unique because it follows all of the textbook definitions and levels of abuse. People who have never experienced any of them firsthand literally are unable to empathize with his character. Luke has zero use for Ben. His own parents don’t understand him because he is so different. Leia is Force Sensitive. Han is not. Even books that describe how the Force works say that every Force Sensitive has different abilities. That easily explains why Leia can’t help him, Luke refuses to unless it benefits him, and Han can’t. Don’t forget that Palpatine is PuppetMaster over everything.

Then you have the narcissist fanboys who were so angry that Ben Solo existed that they were the ones who rewrote every single facet of lore and science within that universe. To the point where a Force Sensitive is not even allowed to become a Force Ghost. If that ability is removed by the writers or anyone else, then that person cannot be revived later for another story. Same for the World Between Worlds. You can’t have two people in the same lineage in the same inter dimensional space have different rules, when the rest of who visits doesn’t have those same restrictions. Therefore a Ben Solo resurrection film is impossible for the future.

The rage that Ben Solo evokes from SW fanboys is something that needs to be studied. Their efforts to erase him and write him off into oblivion is a clear example of the petty spitefulness that broke the myth for good. He’s been hated by the fanboys since TFA (despite what people might try to have you believe) and it all comes down to them hating the idea of his character being taken in a sympathetic direction. They don’t care about the themes or coherence of the myth, all they really want is an empty and badass spectacle that’ll momentarily satisfy them, but isn’t what they need.

The foundation of people’s inability to empathize with Ben’s character was laid way back in the TFA era. Since then, the half-baked headcanons that circulated around the fandom have morphed into an unrecognizable mass of unexplained problems people have with him. TLJ shows us evidence of the abuse he experienced and actively characterizes Ben Solo as a victim in a way that no one had expected post-TFA. He’s overtly sympathetic and his character serves as a reminder that it was a fanciful idea to think that someone would just spontaneously become evil because of their heritage. TLJ makes it so that he can’t be written off as the kid with perfect parents who just went crazy one day, instead he’s more than that.

Also, on the topic of the “Jedi prerequisite” for becoming a force ghost makes me quake with rage. It’s a bullshit rule that only exists to exclude certain characters from coming back and is used arbitrarily. The rules are constantly being rewritten and revised to suit whatever narrative the person making those rules wants to enforce. For the time being, DLF is averse to anything Ben related (even though he was wildly popular and mostly well-received) and given that Adam Driver isn’t coming back, I’ve lost all hope for a potential resurrection.

[frasier-crane-style]

Why The Last Jedi doesn't work as subversion is that it continuously requires the characters to act like they KNOW they're characters in Star Wars and not LIVING the Star Wars.

I'll give you an example. Rey. In TFA, her parents are simply missing and she's waiting for them to come back. In TLJ, she suddenly thinks they're an important secret for Kylo to reveal to her because she's pathologically suppressed the truth that they're drunks who sold her for alcohol money (or, you know, blue milk money, whatever).

But why would she ever think that she had an important family or heritage unless she knew she was the protagonist of a space epic and having an important family or heritage is something that happens to those?

Or DJ. The Benecio del Toro character is supposed to be a subversion of the rogue with a heart of gold trope. But why would Finn and Bangs ever think he's a rogue with a heart of gold that's implicitly trustworthy? They find him in a prison cell and have no reason to think he has any loyalty to the Resistance--he even gives a speech about how he considers the First Order and the Resistance to be equally bad!

In ANH, both Luke and Obi-Wan treated Han like exactly what he was, a mercenary, who had to be cajoled into helping out until finally he showed his true colors by attacking the Death Star. They didn't know they were characters going through a story arc. The Sequel Trilogy characters act like they do, until Rian Johnson pranks them by twisting the story arc they had no reason to think they were participating in.

And the entire Luke storyline is a subversion of the entire idea of mentorship. Luke doesn't teach Rey anything. She doesn't need to be taught anything. It's unclear why she even thinks she does, given that she already beat down Kylo Ren with ease, but, again, character in a story. She thinks she needs a training montage, Rian says "she doesn't get a training montage!", and scene.

It's all very meta and post-modern and taken at face value, it doesn't make any sense once you ask obvious questions like "Why shouldn't Poe know that there is a plan to save the fleet?" Defenders of TLJ dismiss those obvious questions because they see them as unimportant next to the post-modern gamesmanship the movie is really concerned with, but Star Wars doesn't work like a Scream movie, where the characters are largely obsessed with horror movies and then, ironically, placed inside a horror movie.

That's a kind of cynicism that doesn't really work for Star Wars; you can't do a sincere narrative about the triumph of good over evil when the characters are mostly convinced there's no big difference between Good or Evil winning.

To go back to ANH, Obi-Wan is emphatic about how wonderful the Jedi were, how tragic it was that they were wiped out, how awful it is to live under the Empire, and how important it is to fight to restore the Republic. That's the baseline of sincerity that this kind of primordial mythmaking needs to work.

With TLJ, most every character on both sides are cynical, foolish, corrupt, power-tripping, shrill, pompous... most of all, incompetent. It seems less like an epic battle between the noble and the venal--more like two competing cliques of sitcom characters, only one of them is inexplicably Nazi-themed. You're left pretty much adrift, with no characters to sympathize with and no conflicts to become invested in, just visuals and 'themes'.

But children can't get invested in themes or subversion. Neither can most people. It's the province of the elitist to care about subtext over story--the sick doldrums of modern art--and Star Wars isn't for them. It's for the people.

[fantastic-nonsense]

honestly as much as I bitch about TLJ specifically, I lowkey think the sequel trilogy was doomed no matter who tried to make them because they were made in Hollywood's peak "absolutely nothing we ever make can be sincere!" era, which is antithetical to how George Lucas approached making Star Wars.

One of the most interesting things about Star Wars has always been how absolutely sincere it was about its themes and message and everything that happens in the movies. Even if it's ridiculous, even if it's objectively silly, nothing is ever really treated as such within the movies themselves. A naive farmboy genuinely does have the skill to take down a planet killing weapon. A slave boy from a backwater planet really does have a key part to play in the fall of the Jedi. A group of three foot high killer teddy bears are treated as serious opponents to Imperial forces. Jar-Jar Binks gets to be a Senator with an instrumental, if small, part to play in the story of the prequels. Everything has its place and every part of the story is treated with equal sincerity.

But nearly everything made in the 2010s always had to be funny or meta or self-aware or subversive or self-depreciating about its message and the genre it occupied. There was always a twist. There was always a "I'm more clever than my audience" or "I know this is dumb, but watch it anyway" vibe being brought to the table. Everything always had to take at least one cheap shot at people who wanted to take a piece of media seriously and sincerely treat it as a story whose creators had something to say.

And meanwhile George Lucas was always just like "I have a story, and I want to tell that story. I don't care if people like it or don't like it. My themes are my themes, my message is my message, and you can just die mad about it if you think it's too naive or sincere."

Any world that is fundamentally built on sincerity and genuine belief in a core set of messages cannot maintain integrity when people who do not wholeheartedly believe in the sincerity of that world's message are put in charge of it. The lack of belief will always shine through. The lack of understanding will pervade every inch of the new entry. The sheepish embarassment of "I know this is dumb guys, but watch it anyway because I'm going to do something ~different~!" will always be the audience's takeaway over anything else the creative team tries to say. Because instead of just making a good movie that both logically follows the other ones and actually adds further depth to the existing themes, they're embarassed to even be trying.

Even apart from the utter lack of planning and the mess of executive meddling that went into the sequels...is it any wonder we got the end result we did when no one involved in the creative process actually genuinely, wholeheartedly believed in George Lucas's message and the story they were telling?

[david-talks-sw]

Luke Skywalker in 'The Last Jedi' (2/2)

OK, so in Part 1/2 of this post, we explored why Luke's TLJ characterization isn't really inconsistent with what had previously been established in Star Wars lore. It tracks. Dare I say: it works.

And yet... something still feels off, right?

Well, the reason for this is because Luke's character development is impacted by the film's structure, which in turn is impacted by - of all things - Poe's lack of development in Episode VII! Just hear me out!

The intention: Making the audience feel the same emotions as the protagonist, deuteragonists and antagonist.

This is what most movies strive for. Unless the film is trying to go for some dramatic irony, you want your audience to be on the same page with your protagonist, emotionally-speaking.

And y'know what? Rian Johnson does this very well.

Overall, he displays a very good grasp of making us, the audience, feel the same emotions as a film’s protagonist (generally, the main character, whose POV we follow) or deuteragonist (the ‘secondary main character’).

Rey was expecting to meet the Luke from the Original Trilogy, the Luke from Legends... and instead was disappointed to meet an old jaded hermit. Just like many of the fans were.

Finn is fooled by DJ, mistaking him for an archetypal "misfit with a heart of gold". Just like the fans were.

Poe is increasingly frustrated with Holdo, just like we were.

Call it "meta", call it "subversive", the bottom line is that some of the narrative choices that a lot of fans criticize the film for are intentionally placed there to put you in the same mental state as the characters you're following, even during the film's twists.

But as a result, if a character isn’t the protagonist (Rey), or the deuteragonists (Poe or Finn), or even the antagonist (Kylo)... they'll barely get any development.

They might get one or two scenes for themselves tops, but overall secondary characters like Luke, or Holdo, or DJ will mostly be shown through the filter of Rey or Poe’s or Finn's POV.

The Problem: Luke isn't a protagonist or deuteragonist, so he isn't developed to the audience's satisfaction.

Don't get me wrong: Luke has the second-most screen time in the whole film, but that's because Rey is the one with the most screen time, and he's primarily a character in her storyline.

To be fair, he does have his own subplot, he's the spiritual center of the whole film. But concretely, he’s one step above support characters like Holdo, Leia, Rose and DJ. We're barely shown his own POV and mainly view him through Rey's lens.

Like, there's a reason why in this scene...

... we don't see what Luke witnessed in Ben’s mind, simply his reaction to it: Rey didn’t see it either.

All three "Rashomon" flashbacks are what Rey is picturing in her mind when she’s being told three different versions of the story. She doesn't see what Luke witnessed, so we don't see it either.

And you know what? On paper... this is also not really an issue. It's actually quite standard. I mean, Yoda doesn't get much backstory or an arc in Empire Strikes Back. He's just the mentor figure, and we see him through Luke's POV.

There's no arguing that Luke in TLJ receives much more development than Yoda does in ESB.

But y’know what?

Yoda was also never the protagonist of a whole other trilogy.

So if you're gonna tell an audience that "the protagonist of the previous trilogy strayed from the path and is now a completely different person" - even if they eventually make their way back with a character arc - I don’t think it’s out of order for audience members to expect more development than a regular mentor archetype.

Context is expected, and when it isn't delivered, that'll kill the suspension of disbelief, for many fans. They're not just disappointed in Luke like Rey is, they're not immersed in the movie anymore.

So how do you go for what Rian was going while also trying to keep about half the fans from jumping ship?

The Solution (?) Delving deeper into Luke.

So let’s suppose Luke was treated like a deuteragonist. Suppose we see his own POV more, rather than just seeing him through Rey’s eyes. Would that help? And what would that look like?

Firstly, we keep that deleted scene of him mourning Han’s loss.

Or we show it like in the comic adaptation of TLJ, with Luke getting angry at his decision to cut himself off from the Force, unintentionally levitating objects until Chewie consoles him.

WHAT IT DOES: Either version humanizes Luke, shows who he is beneath the jaded mask he's putting on, gives audience a chance to mourn Han with him.

We keep that deleted scene of him explaining to Rey why he thinks the Jedi were flawed, also known as the “3rd lesson scene”.

WHAT IT DOES: Spells out Luke's rationalization that the Jedi Order needs to end. Marks the beginning of Luke's wake up call.

We add one or two additional short flashbacks of Ben gradually becoming darker and unhinged. Maybe he harms one of his fellow students in a fit of rage.

WHAT IT DOES: Clarifies that Ben was going through a dark period and that's why Luke went to confront him in his hut. He didn't just saunter into Ben's hut, sabers blazing.

Maybe halfway through the film, we see Luke pack his bag as he prepares to rescue his friends with Rey, only to find her communicating with Kyloe.

After all, the novelization shows that, upon opening himself to the Force and sensing Leia, he immediately decides to get back in the game. So if that’s not just something Jason Fry added to embellish stuff, let’s see that.

WHAT IT DOES: Drives home the fact that Luke realizes his mistake. (Although, it might also take away from the subsequent scene with Yoda).

Finally, let’s actually see what Luke saw in Ben’s mind: him killing Lor San Tekka, killing Han, killing Leia, murdering Chewie and countless more innocents all with a smile on his face.

WHAT IT DOES: Provides context for Luke's extreme reaction.

Most of these things are already technically canon, the only difference is that it would be shown on screen. And if all these elements are added, then Luke’s reasons for staying away and his reaction in Ben’s hut are already more understandable.

So where’s the flaws in this solution?

Solution Flaw #1: Plot twist would be ruined.

Talking about this one:

Again, we're seeing Luke THROUGH Rey's POV, for the most part. Our reaction is - intentionally - the same reaction as Rey.

The whole point of the twist is that

we, with Rey, believe Kylo can be redeemed, because

we, like Rey, remember Luke redeemed Vader.

So when she realizes “oh shit, Luke was right, he’s too far gone”... we react that way too.

But if we had seen Ben’s turn as well, if we had seen how he was during his training, if we had seen what Luke’s saw in Ben’s mind, we would all collectively agree with Luke and think that Rey is making a mistake in trying to redeem Kylo.

So when Rey walks away from Luke, rather than hoping she succeeds, we’d just be waiting for her to inevitably fail. We'd be thinking:

"Rey, you moron, you're walking into a trap and Kylo isn't gonna turn!"

Emotionally-speaking, we would be detached from the protagonist.

Solution Flaw #2: Increase in the runtime at the cost of other scenes.

The Last Jedi is already the longest film in the franchise. Adding just three of the above-suggestions would increase that runtime, which wouldn’t work. So you’d need to take something out.

But Finn and Poe’s storylines are already stripped down to their bare bones as it is. Hell, so was the Rey/Luke storyline, for that matter.

Actually, wait... why do we have three storylines, in the first place?

After all, if we look at The Empire Strikes Back, they only have two storylines, right?

The protagonist, Luke, goes to Dagobah.

The deuteragonists, Han and Leia, evade the Empire.

Main plot & subplot. Great.

Wouldn't it be better to just have Poe and Finn do the Canto Bight storyline together? That would give us sme remaining time to focus on Luke’s past, right? Where’s the issue?

Well, Rian Johnson put it this way:

Bottom line, in The Force Awakens, Poe is a clear-cut character. Simple as that. He’s charismatic and fun, but there isn’t much room for him to grow.

A lot of people compare his character to Han, but there's an issue with that comparison (besides the obvious fact that Finn is Han and Poe is Leia)...

In ANH, Han has an arc. He's the philosophical antagonist of the film, he's only out for himself which conflicts with Luke's attempts to help others. Han goes from being a selfish irresponsible gun-slinger to taking responsibility and becoming a selfless rebel, a part of something bigger. Arc concluded.

(Hell, this very reason is why Harrison Ford didn’t wanna keep playing him and lobbied to kill him off.)

So in ESB, Leia is the one who has the arc. Han is just being himself. Leia is the one who must slowly come to terms with the fact that she does love him, despite him being a total nerf-herder. So she and Han bicker, there’s conflict there, but there’s also an underlying affection.

As such, when Poe doesn’t have an arc in TFA, and is already on great terms with Finn, then there’s no conflict if you put them together in a subplot.

And conflict is crucial, in storytelling. If it's absent, then the story becomes boring.

As a result, Rian Johnson had to create conflict and growth for Poe.

Which means that, now, a third storyline is thrown in the mix... and the pacing and development of the other two are affected by this. Some really good scenes need to be cut, some stuff needs to get shuffled around.

For example, remember this deleted scene, from further up?

In the commentary, Rian explained that the reason it wasn’t in the film is because it didn’t intercut well with the other two storylines. *Three and a half, if you wanna count Kylo's personal scenes.

As such, there’s no space to add more scenes to develop Luke's perspective.

And if Rian made more space, well, that wouldn't work either. Because while Luke is the spiritual core of the film... this isn't his movie. He's not the protagonist anymore. But he used to be, and if you show him too much (not as Rey's mentor figure, that is, but as a protagonist or deuteragonist), he'll take the spotlight off the new cast with the snap of a finger.

When Michael Arndt was working on the Sequels with George Lucas in 2012, he encountered this same issue:

“Early on I tried to write versions of the story where [Rey] is at home, her home is destroyed, and then she goes on the road and meets Luke. And then she goes and kicks the bad guy’s ass. It just never worked and I struggled with this. This was back in 2012. It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over. Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f*ck, Luke Skywalker's here. I want to see what he’s going to do’.” - Michael Arndt, Entertainment Weekly, 2015

And I'm guessing this is a problem that JJ had to deal with too, hence why Luke was pushed to the end of Episode VII: so as to give the new characters a chance to be developed a bit more, first.

“In a very general sense, the original idea for Episode VII started midway through what we now know as Episode VIII...” - Pablo Hidalgo, Twitter, 2016

There's finally the fact that, while most of those ideas can make Luke's fall more understandable... his story isn't about "how he fell".

It's about how he got back up. The whole point of the film is that even when you've reached your lowest point you can still inspire and be inspired by hope.

So while adding any of the above scenes would only reinforce what was already shown in the movie, be it explicit or subtextual... they wouldn't ADD anything to the theme of learning from failure and getting back in the saddle.

Do I care about Luke’s characterization in TLJ...?

In spite of what the length and intricacy of these two posts might indicate... I don’t, really 😅

Like, sure, I wish more had been done with the character, but Luke was never really my childhood hero, Obi-Wan was.

So Luke in TLJ isn’t a gaping wound in my chest. I didn't whine about it in 2017, nor did I shed tears of joy and said “he’s finally back” when we saw him in The Mandalorian, for example.

Like, it was an awesome scene, but in my mind Luke never left.

Also I’m the type of Star Wars fan who’ll tolerate any addition to the canon by virtue of it being new Star Wars content.

So even if that addition is something I didn’t enjoy during the viewing, I still focus on the positive and roll with it, I come up with a headcanon that'll make it work.

Because you get to do that, with a transmedia franchise!

If you don’t like how it went down in the movie? There's always a comic around the corner that'll retcon it and/or retroactively make it better... that's how it was for the Prequels.

But for the Sequels, it's difficult. There's a scarcity of transmedia content, when it comes to stuff set around the Sequels era.

I mean, can you think of any

Luke-centric work

that serves as a meaningful addendum to what's seen of him in the Sequels?

A novel, a comic issue and a distantly-relevant manga.

That's it.

(The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett are too soon after ROTJ to have any meaningful impact on Luke's journey in the Sequels. Some people see Luke's behavior in those shows as "the beginning of his failure", but I covered why I don't think this is really the case, here.)

Instead of just three items, how about a comic mini-series focusing on the year Luke spent training Leia, or on his adventures across the galaxy as he tries to rebuild the Jedi Order? Maybe he meets Cal Kestis, or Quinlan Vos? Maybe he needs to face against an Oppo Rancisis who was consumed by the darkness, post-Order 66?

Or better yet, how about a video game centered on Luke, in the style of Fallen Order or Jedi Academy?

Get Mark Hamill to motion cap it, he's done it before.

This would also allow the fans who grew up with the powerhouse that is Legends Grandmaster Luke Skywaker to have some fun!

Many fans wanted to see Luke in action, in TLJ, and instead got a pretend-samurai fight. Which is nice, powerful and symbolic, he goes out like a true Jedi, it makes the Force more than a superpower... but it's not a lightsaber duel. In a game, though? Players can go to town.

I dunno... any additional content would've smoothed the blow for many people who didn't like what was done with Luke in TLJ. Sure, you'd always have people who just hated the whole thing, but if transmedia content helped reduce the hate for the Prequels, it could've done the same with Luke.

I'm not sure why that route wasn't taken.

[nateofgreat]

Rey Movie Hopes and Fears

So the whole Rey movie that's announced. I've got hopes that will probably be unfulfilled by Lucasfilm's current team and fears that will most certainly be realized.

Hope: The "does the Galaxy need/want the Jedi back?" question will be answered "yes" and Rey will discover and demonstrate the positive role the Jedi can play in this new era.

Fear: The Jedi will be blamed for Order 66 and while Rey will keep them around they'll reinvent themselves into something less interesting.

Hope: The WHOLE story of Anakin will be touched on, his crimes and his redemption. Rey was depicted as respecting Luke's decision to save Vader in TLJ and that's good for a Jedi, but I hope they don't act like Anakin's fall was destiny and therefore not his fault.

Fear: Anakin will be respected as a great Jedi without acknowledgement of his time as Darth Vader.

Hope: Rey will have a decent following of Jedi by the start of the movie, say, 20 or so Jedi to get the revival of the Order started.

Fear: It'll just be Rey and a Padawan and even Finn's Force sensitivity won't be touched on.

Hope: The Jedi will be depicted as an interesting collection of people with their own interests, hobbies and personalities instead of a hivemind who only spout Jedi dogma. Especially since they'll presumably be a group of adults who weren't raised as Jedi and are trying to revive the Jedi Order under Rey and some old text's guidance.

Fear: Non-Jedi's dialogue about the Jedi will sound like they're reading an anti-Jedi post wholesale, taking you out of the moment and sounding super meta.

Hope: Rey will maintain her sense of respect and love of Jedi and their culture, expanding upon her personal struggles to find belonging from the ST with her finding it in the Jedi lifestyle.

Fear: They'll try to retroactively fix the things people complained about in regards Rey's character by making her suddenly struggle to do basic things and having meta criticisms leveled her way.

Hope: Luke Skywalker's legacy will be respected and he'll remain a figure of inspiration for Jedi everywhere. Maybe throw in a Force Ghost scene with him and Rey.

Fear: Luke Skywalker won't be mentioned.

Hope: Ahsoka Tano will never mentioned or is said to be dead, permanently sidelining her into irrelevance so Dave can't make her the new Jedi Grandmaster.

Fear: A window through which Dave can shove Ahsoka is left open.

[maidenvault]

Okay my Reylo mutuals/followers (and whoever else would like to answer)…I would like your Reylo recs, please. TLJ made me like their relationship more than I thought I could, but I’ve never actually tried delving into this part of the fandom much. So I’d like to know what fics or meta you’d put in the category of “If this doesn’t make you understand the appeal of this ship nothing will.” Anything but AUs, any rating.