#to form a relationship between Rhaenyra and her kids

[dirtytransmasc]

... she never made an effort... she only ever furthered herself from her siblings... she only made herself look like a threat, having it made clear viserys would always favor her, protecting her lies at the risk of others, after abandoning her mother when she needed her most, and used and lied to her, hurting her more than she already was from Viserys, for her own benefit (not to mention her manipulative father buried those thoughts deep in her mind while she was still a CHILD herself)... she had every reason to "hate" (fear) Rhaenyra and in her attempts to protect her children, extend that fear/hatred to them. even then, outside of Aemond (justifiably, considering she felt entitled to his eye and wanted to have him tortured) none of them even really hated her until the dance, at the very most, they felt resentful because their father loved her 10x more than he loved all 4 (including Daeron) of them combined, and at the very least, they felt nothing as she was never there, never mattered to their lives outside of court and politics.

this take is shit. Rhaenyra never cared. she never wanted her siblings in her life. she felt entitled to Aemond's eye, and you want to tell me she gave a shit, not even enough to spare her 10 year old brother, over an insult?

(and before you bring up her call for her siblings to come bend the knee, we know how she can kiss up and lie through her teeth in times of need, her words hold little backing. see it as truth if you want, but I can't trust it, not with how she's acted previously.)

[anxiousnerdwritings]

What about platonic!yandere Alicent and Rhaenrya encouraging yandere tendencies in their boys because they both want their darling to marry into their side of the family?

Yes! Both Rhaenyra and Alicent would encourage their children to grow attached and hopefully just as obsessed with the darling as they already are. They both want the darling with them, integrated into their own respective families, only things get more intense when you have both women already obsessed with the same darling, and now getting their children in on it too. It’s just bloodshed waiting to happen.

Similar in their parenting styles, Alicent and Rhaenyra would go about their encouraging and coaxing of their children differently. Alicent is more forceful in her endeavors, almost as if she’s force feeding her own obsession down her children’s throats. She doesn’t give a choice to her children, whether they want a part in any of this or not, but she needs the numbers. Alicent needs to have a few backups in case the first doesn’t make it to her expectations. But she’s not going to allow that to happen. No, her children will ‘love’ and ‘care’ about the darling as much as her, even more so if she can manage that. The only thing Alicent will truly achieve is making even bigger messes out of her children, leading them to become more and more out of her control.

Rhaenyra on the other hand would be much more meticulous and methodical in how she approaches her children and overall encourages them to take up an obsession of their own respectively. She would plant little seeds in her kids’ minds, suggesting things here and there to get her children to interact with and grow closer to the darling. She’ll of course ensure her boys know how to treat and behave in regards to the darling. If the darling has certain interests or hobbies, Rhaenyra would tell her children all about them. If her darling as a certain type they prefer in a suitor or lover than Rhaenyra will help however she can to make her children the utmost version of that preference for their darling. If she can that is.

Alicent would definitely utilize betrothing the darling to whichever of her child. Her utmost priority isn’t the relationship itself with the darling and her children, unlike Rhaenyra who’s first thing is forging relationships with her children and her darling. No, Alicent would rather have her darling in her clutches and form any actual relationship between her child and darling after the two have already been married.

[cburambles]

I don't know if it was intentionnal but they really gave the vibe that Jace & Baela were secretly dating prior to the officialization of their engagement. That little nod of approval of Jace while discreetly checking on Baela's reaction & her satisfied smile. There was no surprise & I don't think Rhaenyra & Rhaenys brought up the subject to them.

Despite being raised by Rhaenys who respect the wishes of her husband but is wary of how the illigitimacy allegations will impact those kids & her suspicions about Daemon & Rhaenyra killing Laenor, Baela was really seemingly onboard about the idea of marrying Jace & I think it's because they got to know each other pretty well during those last years to the point she is willing to get into physical fights for him & I don't think it's only because the events during Laena's funeral.

It seems Moondancer is born earlier than what we got in the books so it's likely they both got to watch their dragons grow & may have learned to ride them together. Dragonstone isn't far away too so they could have secretly met & have dragonback races on the sea, as well as opportunities to talk a lot about how they are raised to be rulers & such. It could explain that feeling of familiarity between the two.It's also possible they became pen pal when she went to Driftmark.

I like the idea of Rhaenyra picking up on it & went to Rhaenys with the betrothal idea as it could be a good practical political move in her mind but also knowing Jace & Luke deserves to be happy in their marriages & as well as for Daemon's daughters. Also who knows, Jace might says he is trying to learn High Valyrian to stay connected to his roots & the pressure of being the Velaryon/Targaryen prince but seeing his enthusiasm he could also be doing it to impress Baela and find another way to be connected with her, knowing we saw Daemon teaching her words when she was a kid.

We see Jace casually leaning on her chair right before Viserys enter the room,they knows how to defend each other as they are deflecting Aegon's taunts, Jayce's eyes always going to Baela when he's not facing forward, Baela calling softly " Jace" when he gets angry, which prompts him to calm down, how they are in synch while toasting, getting Viserys's approval for staying in control & all.

Jace's "excuse me" to Baela when he invites Heleana to a dance & she's not bothered by it because she knows Heleana has a miserable marriage & deserves some moments of happiness . Jace is a gentleman & is showing a sense of honor that would make Harwin Strong's proud & it's a good way to put back Aegon in his place while also lighting the ambiance around the table.

You know Baela thinks about she will have a good marriage & form a strong political unit & probably plans to invite Heleana for dragonback races & bug hunts on Dragonstone to get away from all that toxicity & mend further the broken relationship between the Greens & the Blacks as she is happily eating with Rhaena & Luke.

The heartbreak that will come is gonna be so painful & the events of the fall of Dragonstone feels more personnal, as the way Aegon treated Baela during dinner, the death of Rhaenys & Jace will make the battle even more personnal for her.

[hamliet]

If you don't mind sharing your opinion, what are your thoughts on the dynamic between Aemond and Lucerys? Do you think Aemond truly hated Lucerys or did the former realize that he did not hate the latter as much as he assumed after Lucerys' death?

I think Aemond projects his inadequacy onto Lucerys and is jealous. Their relationship parallels Alicent and Rhaenyra's, and deliberately so.

Let's start by talking about Aemond's grudge against Lucerys. I'll say two things: firstly, Aemond didn't deserve to lose an eye. Secondly, Lucerys is not truly at fault.

Aemond claiming Vhagar so soon after Laena's death was bad form, sure, but it's also typical ten year old behavior. I'm sorry, but a ten year old does not understand the complexity and nuance of grief or the idea that there is a time and a place for things, and that was absolutely Not It. You can get into whether or not his parents should have taught him this, but the reality is that claiming Vhagar is not an unforgiveable sin but instead a child's foolishness.

And that said, you can see why Laena's daughters and Rhaenyra's sons (again, in the books, Rhaenyra and Laena were romantically involved, so she was very close with Rhaenyra's sons) would see it as rubbing salt in the wound. Even though Baela and Rhaena aren't as involved in the books, yeah, it comes across as hurtful, even cruel, even if Aemond had no cruel intentions. Of course they were furious and frankly, would have been justified to never forgive.

But you just said Aemond wasn't unforgivable! To the audience and adults, yes. For the kids, well, not forgiving for personal hurts is their choice, but whatever they could've chosen, it doesn't mean that Aemond was some irredeemable monster.

So then let's go to Luke. Luke is even younger than Aemond. In the show, Aemond picks up a rock and starts using it to hit Jacaerys' head.

Aeeemooooonnnnnd you do realize that can kill someone, right? Well, to be fair, Aemond doesn't, because as a kid he doesn't fully grasp death's finality. Still, it imo justifies Luke and Jace defending themselves with violence, and doesn't put them on a lower moral tier.

When it comes to the eye, Luke also doesn't fully understand what that means, how that's a permanent disability, how no kid involved deserved a permanent punishment for what happened between them there. Like he's six years old. You think a six year old can comprehend what that means?

This is why Alicent's "an eye for an eye!" is so effed up. It reflects her understanding of fairness, but what Aemond needed in that moment wasn't revenge, but love and comfort. That whole scene had nothing to do with Aemond or Luke and everything to do with Alicent's self-despair at her powerlessness projected as envy of Rhaenyra.

So. That at last brings me back to Aemond's feelings for Luke. It's not hatred exactly, but imo the same as Alicent vs. Rhaenyra: envy. Rhaenyra protected Luke at the expense of her own wellbeing. Now, Alicent wasn't there when Aemond lost his eyes, so by no means am I judging her, but even when she found out it was more about how to make them hurt instead of how to make Aemond feel better.

I think Alicent loved her kids, but how she treats her children is a major flaw especially when compared to Rhaenyra's treatment of her kids. But, also? Rhaenyra's sons were born of love. Alicent's were born of--well, duty is a nice word, but by today's standards, we'd call it assault. This doesn't mean they're bad kids or that Alicent hated them (she. loves. them.).

But, Alicent's understanding of love is interwoven with power and the idea that love seeks power for the beloved first and foremost.

Alicent wants to be loved unconditionally, like every human alive. But she never has been. Her husband kind of loves her, but he doesn't know her or respect her in the same way as he did Aemma. Her father claims to love her, but uses her like a pawn and sells her into marriage. The show's depiction of her bond with Rhaenyra as a kind of puppy love ties beautifully into this as well: she experienced it, only to have it broken by the expectations of a society that says "can't let this exist."

So, Alicent's husband shows his flaws in love by not giving her power and by neglecting their kids. This hurts her. Her father shows his love by making her queen. When it comes to her kids, giving them power is the only way she feels she can express love. But it's as lacking when she does it as it was when her father did it.

I do think Aemond was jealous of Rhaenyra's prioritization of all her kids--including stepkids. I think he projected his feelings in inadequacy onto Luke. He was the second son. He wasn't loved by the people like Daeron or Helaena, or in line for the throne like Aegon. His biggest triumph--claiming Vhagar--was overshadowed by the fact that he lost an eye that same day.

Lucerys is also a second son. Not only that, but he's a bastard, and yet he was loved by his biological father, Harwin, his legal father, Laenor, and his stepfather, Daemon. Meanwhile Viserys, frankly, doesn't give a damn about Aemond or any of Alicent's kids.

But Aemond is the legitimate one. Aemond, if things go by the book, is entitled to things Luke has. Why doesn't he have love or belonging, then? It's the same "but I've done it the right way, so why am I not the one being rewarded with happiness?" tragedy that is Alicent's relationship with Rhaenyra.

Maybe if Luke lost an eye, he'd feel what Aemond feels. Maybe that's the true equalizer (it's not).

Still, in the books, Aemond is going to let Lucerys go. But one girl taunts Aemond and implies he's weak for preferring to marry her sister over her, and this is what sets Aemond off on Vhagar to hunt down Luke.

In other words, it was never about hatred. It was always about Aemond projecting his own feelings of inadequacy.

[jaimeslanisters]

as a team green enthusiast, i think what they have going on compared to the blacks is that they have way more interesting characters. whether you like or hate them, team green's characters are so much more intriguing to me. otto is smart and cunning, alicent is one of the most layered characters in the show, criston is one of the finest knights in the realm, aegon is a somewhat tragic bumbling drunkard (i don't subscribe to what the show decided to do) who finally receives some form of validation once he becomes king, helaena has her prophetic dreams, aemond is aemond, and i can't wait to meet show!daeron. the only interesting characters on the black's team (imo) right now are rhaenyra, daemon, and a bit of rhaenys and corlys. the rest are children (no shade). the velaryon twins deserve better, and honestly, what are the distinguishing traits between jace and luke? they're just "good" and handsome boys lol. all that is to say, i enjoy pawn so much because you highlight the uniquness and nuance of the greens and their interactions with one another, for better or for worst

YES!!! COMPLETELY!!!!!

quick rant about family dynamics in team green vs team black under read more

while i’m truly team “the targaryens were always going to collapse through their own hubris”, im team green simply because the characters are so much more interesting. they’re the roy family if you stuck them into westeros and handed most of them weapons of mass destruction. they love each other. they’re each other’s deaths. sometimes they can’t stand the mere sight of another. they’ll kill to protect one another. they’ll die for one another.

like!!! this is all canon. this is what the show has shown us. aegon gets slapped around by alicent but when they pull him from his hiding spot, he asks for his mother. alicent resents him at times, the first chain that was looped around her neck, but she’ll stand in front of a dragon for him, fight for what’s his for him. aemond wants the throne, he covets it, but he calls it his brother’s throne, threatens luke for the crime of trying to steal it. helaena endlessly whispers about the death of her family, sews a funeral shroud for the child she hasn’t lost yet. criston is their sword, their shield, their iron fist.

how am i supposed to not be insane about them?? all their complexities and resentments and joys?? there’s so much you can dig into, so much you can do with their relationships. i feel like i write a “kinder” version of them, their relationships when they’re relatively safe and when there’s no real pressure that’s risking their lives. in pawn, for now, they’re not faced with the cost of what everything will take, the cost they know they’ll have to pay, so they’re given the chance to be warmer and kinder with one another. we know they have the potential to - aegon immediately rises to aemond’s defense in the dinner after all. aegon and aemond are gossips in a corner in the opening scene and then barely an episode later, they’re knocking each other to the ground. they’re a family with all the hurt and pain and love it brings with.

and the team black gets to be the brady bunch? they love each other, of course they do, but no family is 100% perfect, 100% emotionally competent. rhaena is ignored for her lack of a dragon - wheres her resentment? her insecurity? baela just accepts that and doesn’t feel anger for her twin? the two of them don’t mind their birthrights being taken out from under them? baela is fostered with the velaryons - would that not sway her to being more sympathetic to these cousins she’s now living with? these cousins who think that luke is a bastard usurper?

the velaryon twins and the strong boys don’t clash like at all? rhaenyra and daemon just shoved their families together, barely waiting for their respective spouses to be buried, and that went down smoothly? the kids are fine with each other and their parents who they now think are murderers. somehow.

rhaenys and corlys are suddenly ok with the mysterious death of laenor? post ep 8, all that grief and rage rhaenys has on a low simmer just vanishes and is replaced by adoration of rhaenyra and it’s such a robbery.

jace, imo, is the only one who gets somewhat of a personality at time. he’s quick to violence when confronting aemond at the dinner (even though he’s painfully unequipped to handle it lmao). he obviously distrusts daemon and sees him as grasping at power during his mother’s labor. maybe it’ll get shown in s2 but the fact that with his own siblings, we don’t get to see even a crumb of the layered interactions we get to see between team green.

despite this rant, i do love team black. i know i mainly talk about team green on this blog and my fic (and my mc) are solidly team green as well but i like the bones of what team black is, particularly with the younger cast. i wish they were just allowed to hold grudges and be messy like real people.

[unohanabbygirl]

"Baela, Aegon, Jace and Cregan taking after Daemon, Nyra, Laena and Harwin and forming a polycule"

THIS. This is the dynamic that would've prevented the dance frfr and it needs to be said. (Also ft Luke/Aemond and Laenor/Joffery as the gays who refuse to share their partners) The parallelism here is just superior.

Like imagine (canon au) that it was the reason Daemon and Laena moved in to the Keep so 1) Otto couldn't scheme as much and 2) they would all be present and living in the castle when Vizzy eventually croaks. Rhaenyra's ascension goes smoothly so ✨all hail Nyra and her prince consort/bestie Laenor ✨

Now the kids seeing their parents polycule and be happy is great but when it's their turn to rule decide to play it a whole lot bolder because if Aegon the conqueror can have 2 wives you bet your ass Baela is having both of her husbands!! The 3 of them rizz up Cregan the week he's there for Nyra's coronation celebrations but he has to stay a side piece since man's got a kingdom up north to rule 😔.

And ofc there's Luke and Aemond who booked it to Dragonstone for their daemyra style wedding the second someone mentioned betrothals for them. They're the blood of Old Valyria, Laenor may have accepted his political marriage but Aemond was having none of it, if Aegon of all people could get a happy married life that violated the rules of the seven who was he?? His and Luke's siblings have enough heirs and spares between them to name one as Luke's heir.

Btw Otto dies a completely non-suspicious death that Daemon, Aegon and Aemond had absolutely no involvement in, and this was book!Alicent here so no one cared for her opinion :)

Exactly! The whole dance could’ve been avoided had had everyone been about free love and the seen the vision when it comes to blended families like Nyra and Laenor did. Sadly, it was just too much for certain people’s puritan mindsets to handle. They just hate getting in the way of greatness.

And you clocking the Lucemond parallels with Laenor/Joffrey? *Chef’s kiss* Luke is truly his father’s son.

I also like the idea of the black and Targtower kids looking at their relationship and saying “while you guys are definitely the blueprint, we’re going to take your idea and be loud asf with it.”

Who’s going to stop them anyway? Every house both great and minor except for the hating ass Lannisters and Baratheon’s are on their side. (Most of the time the small folk hold no true loyalty to anyone so as long as taxes aren’t on the rise and they have food in their stomachs, they’re all for the jacelagon polygamy) Besides, it’s not as if Otto is going to step in from beyond the grave and no one listens to Alicent’s crazy rambling all the way from Oldtown. She’s always going on in someone’s ear about the gods bringing down hellfire on the whole realm but its been decades and not a single thing has happened 🤨

I’d even like to imagine Baela, Aegon and Jace outdoing Jaehaerys and Alysanne by having fourteen children so Lucemond can adopt half while they keep the other half. It settles the issue of heirs and allows Driftmark to continue being passed down to those with Velaryon blood so no one (looking at you Vaemond) can use that as an excuse to try and file for another petition or usurp.

Luke can’t help but take in his twin niece and nephew who just so happened to have the signature Stark.

And if Cregan has two large Direwolf plushies commissioned by a local toymaker in Winterfell and sending them to Driftmark for the babes then everyone turns the other cheek ☺️

[allyriadayne]

what do you think would have happend if harwin was still alive when daemon came back into the picture?

the same.

the problem here is not harwin, it's laenor. laenor is the one who is legally married to rhaenyra and the one who has not done the necessary work to protect & support her. harwin can only do this behind close doors if he doesn't want to endanger the children.

the thing about harwin and rhaenyra's relationship is that it's based on mutual attraction and love for their children, but it's not a real one nor there's any kind of future for them. we see in ep 6 that harwin is willing (more or less) to leave king's landing to help protect his family. he can't keep endangering the children's claim with his presence and casting doubts on their paternity, he must leave for everyone's good, esp after his fight with criston cole. lyonel was right! it's time to go! when he entered into that relationship he must have known he could never be anything more than rhaenyra and the children's guard and i think harwin being so selfless would've give it all up if rhaenyra ever asked.

if, let's say, driftmark happens as it does because laena velaryon still dies, and harwin never went to harrenhal (rip lyonel?), i don't think for one second rhaenyra would not have sex with daemon on the beach. harwin might be the baby daddy but she doesn't owe her fidelity to him, she owes it to laenor and /they/ have an arrangement. to me, while rhaenyra loves harwin, he seems to be more of another part of her support system and well......he's not daemon. if he had stayed those ten years, those kids would be 100% his. this is a bit more controversial but rhaenyra has been in love with daemon since she was a child, she wanted to marry him, he's the only person who ever understood her. those feelings never went away.

so they have sex of course and the air clears between them. if the children's fight happens then it's clear to rhaenyra that she needs someone that will support her publicly. as i've said, laenor is not it, and she can never marry harwin for obvious reasons, even if they have a good relationship and he can give her men and a foothold on the riverlands, it will automatically put the succession in trouble (more than it is). it's daemon for her, she's choosing someone who she wants AND can be with her in the open. and i think this is a /huge/ pro for her, it must've been hard for her and harwin to keep it quiet and to never be able to show proper affection for the other.

they kill laenor and they marry. that doesn't change. i see rhaenyra having an honest talk with harwin about this, that much she owes to him at least. love and politics are separated in this world. i see two things that could happen: 1) harwin leaves. he accepts the marriage (because how can't he?) and says goodbye. when the war comes (if larys hasn't killed him....) he's one of the first to support rhaenyra or 2) he stays. he accepts the marriage (bc lbr nothing has actually changed, rhaenyra has always been married) and retains his role as sworn shield to her and the children. he might even form a deeper relationship with them bc dragonstone is theirs. 3) threesome?

so yeah. thanks for the question!

[vivacissimx]

If you're taking questions about your fic verse, I'm curious about what ripple effects you've maybe considered Viserra and Alysanne the Younger having if the events around them march on as in canon, leading eventually to the Dance... but maybe not, or a different configuration, with two more players in there?

hey! yeah so a dance re-do is very much the conclusion of the viserra lives ficverse! way in the future but it's a whole thing that lives in my brain, jkdhefrj GOD i SO wish i could vomit it into google docs fully formed. just do a birth of athena on her.

basically my jumping off point would be the great council of 101 where i would have viserra act as something akin to a natural mediator between viserys and rhaenys and, in an attempt to honor baelon's lifelong mission of keeping his family strong together, heavily encourage them to come to an agreement pre-council vote about what concessions the winner is willing to give the loser (a seat on the council, certain privileges and roles etc). that would have a few ripple effects but nonetheless do nothing to change viserys being the chosen heir.

the main difference i'd see in this specific fic (and other people might approach it differently!) would be that i don't believe there was ZERO sign aemma's miscarriages might lead to a bad end, prior to her final pregnancy. ficverse viserra is super protective of aemma for a few reasons, foremost her empathy around aemma's vulnerability, but also because viserra met this young impressionable child at a time when she desperately needed human connection and thought herself to be unable to have kids. so aemma has a special place in her heart.

i'd have a more empowered aemma advocating for waiting before her and viserys try again, and this leading to a fracture between her, viserys, and the small council eager to ensure the king has >1 heir that results in acknowledged royal mistress alicent hightower & the resulting green children coming about. and then the dance would be a different thing, if still the same: the greens claiming viserys legitimized alicent's (technically bastard) kids on his deathbed therefore they're the true heirs now, the debacle over inheritance rights of women & bastards being brought slightly more to the forefront. i find that flip sort of delicious: rhaenyra's strong boys having the titles but not the targaryen looks, and alicent's children having the looks but not the titles.

by that time viserra would be what, 60+? her hands would not be unstained in any of this. as one of aemma (& therefore rhaenyra)'s stronger supporters at court, bringing to the black side supporters of her own, viserra would then play a role in the conflict accordingly.

princess alysanne is a character i have a lot thought about--i would give her dreamfyre because that dragon is for lesbians ONLY, and helaena silverwing instead (is ulf the white really important to story? no? idgaf about him, bye!). obviously alysanne would have been raised with rhaenyra and have [redacted] relationship with her, and then play [redacted] role in the war as an additional dragonrider on the black side. i still have nettles riding sheepstealer in the outline for this dance, so imagine what you will what that means about viserra's fate and princess alysanne's possible personal motivations.

[shipcestuous]

Regarding that last anon: There are plenty of CONSENSUAL relationships (both incest and not, IRL and fiction) that happen because both parties bond over some kind of trauma, so why do people only ever make it a problem when it's an incestuous relationship? Also, a relationship formed due to bonding over trauma does not make that relationship abusive. (Hope this doesn't come off as attacking that anon, it just... irked me.)

[x]

I agree, Anon, and I think those are really important points to make. There's always that double standard grinding us down.

The anon sent in some clarifying messages so I'll append those here:

1/3(I’m the anon before, a bit worried that I sounded like I was judging you or others for shipping. Just trying to explain that even you’re not puritan and go “Ew, gross!” you might see some potentially uncomfortable aspects.) I’m a psychology addict and it’s hard for me to overlook that romantic/sexual relationships between siblings often seem to be a result of kids being deliberately isolated from the outside world, being co-dependant or not managing to create healthy relationships.

2/3 (And no, that’s not the same as saying they’re not attractive in anyone else's eyes.) It’s often revealed that it’s hard to make more “standard” connections with anyone else afterwards (but maybe that’s seen as a plus in fiction?) and that the relationship might be unbalanced with one more manipulative partner even though they’re close in age. It’s like I want to be open-minded to it, at least in fiction, but there’s complications that keeps rubbing me the wrong way.

3/3 But I’m also very pro “let people read/write/draw/enjoy what they want”, I would never harass anyone or support harassment, so I’m very pro-your blog even though I don’t love every sibling ship or every aspect about sibling shipping, if that makes sense. It’s a very friendly place, which is rare in fandom these days :)

I respect your perspective, Anon, and I appreciate your attitude. And as to your earlier ask, I answered it in a hurry and I probably should have taken more care to show that I wasn't offended by what you said.

I think the kind of incestuous relationship you're describing here is not what most of us enjoy shipping. Even if it has the blueprint to play out like that - like Cathy and Chris from Flowers in the Attic, for example, or Daemon and Rhaenyra - that's not the way I would ship it.

But I guess I feel like even if two characters are traumatized and screwed up, just because an incestuous relationship might make worse doesn't mean it necessarily would. Just because one partner might be manipulative or exert power doesn't mean it would be that way. Even if it usually would make it worse, there's still the cases where it wouldn't. And we're just hanging out and shipping so if every story we tell ourselves is unlikely, why the hell not? We can do that.

If anything it's the shame of incest and incestuous feelings, coming externally from society, that would damage someone further. There was this segment about an adopted woman who found out that her parents were brother and sister. She never told anyone and decided not to marry or have children because she thought they would have genetic defects. When she finally told her adoptive family decades later, of course they all said that it didn't change how they felt about her. And of course what she thought would happen re: children was not correct. That wasn't incest's fault. That was shame and society.

Anon, I think you must have read something on here that was phrased in a way that gave you the wrong impression. Or maybe I said something casually that didn't really represent what I really think. I'm OK with people not being comfortable with incest. But someone saying it's impossible for a consensual healthy incest relationship to exist is what I disagree with. And if it's possible, then why not this ship, or that ship. Etc. Why not Daemon/Rhaenyra? Just because the evidence could point one way doesn't mean it is pointing that way. If someone looks at Daemon/Rhaenyra and reads grooming and manipulation, and is uncomfortable, that's totally fair, but to treat that like it's the universal truth is what I object to.

When we talk about antis, we're talking about attackers, and especially ones that make false or blanket statements or conflate incest with rape. We're talking about people who aren't allowing for possibilities. We're not talking about people who don't like incest ships or aren't comfortable with them. We're just touchy because we get attacked a lot, and because backlash can affect the kind of content we get, and we get so little good incest content. Also, I probably have not acknowledged in any meaningful way that not everyone who dislikes incest shipping or even who hates incest shipping is attacking shippers or being unreasonable. Which I think was one of the main points you were getting at in your first ask.

And while we think education and exposure and great canon ships might begin to change some of those feelings for some people, there certainly exist a lot of incestuous relationships, not just sexually abusive ones, that we shouldn't be comfortable with. And I fully acknowledge that.

But I know you have a live and let ship attitude and you're anti-harassment so I think that's great. That's what's important.

I don't want to debate, or change your mind, I just don't want there to be any wrong impressions. And that's why you spoke up, because you didn't want us to have wrong impressions about 'the other side' either. So I thank you for that.

[lemonhemlock]

I'm probably one of the few who did not pick up a particularly true/good bond between Aemond/Alicent. To me, too much of Aemond is restricted/restrained in relation to his mother (not exclusively). Which, in turn, makes it deeply interesting to me. Especially once the facade breaks down, and he has to reckon with that fact. It's like watching true believers start questioning their faith.

Tangent but the idea of Aemond being incapable of forming a bond with his sister who appears just as much an outcast/weirdo and instead forming one with an oldass dragon war machine... satirical. (I imagine not being a dragon rider had much to do with it + little chance, being Aegon and Helaena were probably raised as a unit anyway for their arranged marriage.)

Idk if you've ever answered this but do you think Sunfyre was hatched to Aegon or claimed? Either way, I imagine he was livid at how his and Helaena's dragons' names match LOL

Hi there!

I'm probably one of the few who did not pick up a particularly true/good bond between Aemond/Alicent. To me, too much of Aemond is restricted/restrained in relation to his mother (not exclusively). Which, in turn, makes it deeply interesting to me.

I don't know what to tell you about that, anon, the green side of tumblr has dissected their relationship to death already. :) He is literally the child Alicent hugs the most in her scenes with them. He is the first one for which we see her stick out her neck in a massive way, publicly demanding justice, even after Viserys refuses her a couple of times. When she finds out he's being bullied, she takes it to Viserys & Aegon. She encourages & comforts him. Yes, she also chastises him a little, because what he did was reckless, big whoop. Wouldn't any parent chastise their child if they, say, approached a dangerous stray dog on the street?

Especially once the facade breaks down, and he has to reckon with that fact. It's like watching true believers start questioning their faith.

I mean, imagine coming home to your mother confessing you just killed a relative & inadvertently escalated a tense political situation that could have maybe been resolved diplomatically into a full-blown war that includes dragonfire. I wouldn't call that a facade. 🤷‍♀️ It's a serious breakdown within the familial unit. Alicent has every right to be upset; this isn't about not loving or supporting her son.

Tangent but the idea of Aemond being incapable of forming a bond with his sister who appears just as much an outcast/weirdo and instead forming one with an oldass dragon war machine... satirical. (I imagine not being a dragon rider had much to do with it + little chance, being Aegon and Helaena were probably raised as a unit anyway for their arranged marriage.)

I'd say that helaemond trruthers would disagree with you on that. 😅Aemond defends Helaena from Aegon as a child. When he is upset and worse for wear after trying to claim Dreamfyre, he confides in Alicent, but doesn't seem to have a problem being vulnerable in front of Helaena, who is also in the room. He watches her like a hawk when she dances with Jace. Helaena's face lights up when he enters her room. I don't think they have a bad relationship. :))

Idk if you've ever answered this but do you think Sunfyre was hatched to Aegon or claimed? Either way, I imagine he was livid at how his and Helaena's dragons' names match LOL

Sunfyre was a hatchling brought over from Dragonstone. We don't know how big he was or how old Aegon was when he bonded with him; I imagine it happened when he was a child. As for who names the dragons, I think dragon-riders get first dibs on that. We know Rhaenyra named Syrax herself, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume the same for Aegon. All owners of magical pets in-universe got to name them themselves (i.e the Stark kids). It is possible that several names are suggested to young children, like the names of Valyrian gods. Whenever hatchlings are mentioned in the text, they do not carry any particular name, so I don't think the dragonkeepers name them.

By the time Helaena claimed Dreamfyre, Aegon & Sunfyre had already bonded in the show. It is very possible Helaena bonded with Dreamfyre later on in the books as well. They don't have a bad relationship in the text, so I don't think Aegon would have objected (mayhaps GRRM intended their names to match anyway).

[houseofpendragons]

I think Viserys and Alicent how a very interesting and complex relationship.

I do feel like he genuinely loves her, just not as much as his beloved Aemma, and I genuinely thinks that she loves him too in her own way.

Funnily enough it all started with their shared grief and their understanding of one anothers feelings. He was kind to her and she was the only one whom he was able to truly find comfort and someone whom he truly frustrated understood him in at least some aspects.

The thing is as he grew in age and became more and more sickly she seemed to become more of a nurse to him instead of a wife. She's always taking care of him and the children basically by herself. He sees those kids and those are Alicent's children, he never really bonded with them, whether that be because he was too old or because some part of him felt like he was betraying Aemma.

He loved her as a caretaker and she loved him as a constant companion who actually seemed to be truly nice to her without wanting to manipulate or use her in any way. He trusts her to run the kingdom, and sit on the council, and have a voice, and take care of him.

They both also felt tied by their shared love of Rhaenyra as well in the beginning. But as things changed and she started to fall more and more into her fathers depths and form to what he was putting in her mind there was adifference, a rift. He still doted in Rhaenyra whilst she began to almost envy her. I think that when the love sort of started to completely turn to patient/nurse instead of husband/wife. Like I love you and I'm here for you, but that's my daughter.

Anywhere that's just my take and I'm completely entranced by the dynamic between Viserys and Alicent and how it shifted and changed throughout the series.

[callsign-blue]

I do want to say that Alicent and Rheanyra’s children could have such a good relationship if only Alicent wasn’t so dead set on her ways. Rheanyra couldn’t give less of a fuck about Alicent’s kids. She gives a fuck but to an extend and when she does it’s calculated. Alicent is so scared and she projects that on her kids, specifically her sons. Granted, they’re a little spoiled shitheads, with exception of Helaena, but they didn’t choose this life. Rheanyra’s are brought up to not strike first, but in the end to have the last blow, they are raise to obviously a different standard.

Both of their parenting styles are very questionable. Alicents projects, her insecurities and her doubts onto her children so in the end, they understand that the reason she’s behaving like this is because of Rheanyra and her children. So they don’t have an option to form an opinion on their own. While Rheanyra’s kids are simply minding their own business and when Rheanyra  needs to, she will interfere and put her children first then herself.

She doesn’t fill them with the thoughts and insecurities as Alicent does with hers. granted she could tell them more concrete things about their lineage but that’s all I can really think of because we don’t really see that interaction all that much, but when we do it at important times, and the fact that she comforts them rather than confront them like Alicent does. 

Even though we see both mothers parent their sons, while Alicent does have a daughter, it seems like the connection there is nonexistent. It’s also sad that they don’t take her seriously as she is a dragon dreamer, which has been the term that I’ve heard, there might be another word for it, but they’re not taking it seriously. The episode before this, episode six, she said that he would get a dragon, but it would only be if he closed and I and lo and behold this episode 1x07 he gets a dragon, but the price for it is an eye. 

In this society, women heirs are the lesser while having a male heir is more wanted. And while both growing up and being friends, Alicent and Rhaenyra both were exposed to the society of needing a male heir, while it wasnt bad to have a daughter, it was frowned upon to not having birthed a son instead so they could inherent the throne. And obviously through the show we’re seeing the turmoil between the house and who inherits the first born female girl or the male offspring of a second marriage .

[cburambles]

Livid with the way the show treat the Velaryon family & Harwin as an afterthought just for the sake to rush to Daemon/ Rhaenyra, which also manages to bring a shit-ton of questions concerning character's decisions & how the writing room really need to have more BIPOCs aboard.

By skipping over the Daemon/ Laena's courtship, we have no idea why Corlys & Rhaenys would be ok with Laena taking off with Daemon knowing he's now a prince in exile. & Oh she was supposedly bethrohed to the sea lord of Braavos the episode prior, which you know could have been a potential political conflict but you tell me it got resolved offscreen. Ok then. & why Laena would be ok following Daemon around with their kids & being pregnant if they put out that she still cared about the importance of her noble & valyrians blood.

Apparently, monogamy culture, the idea you can have one true love when the average citizen might fall in love multiples times in their life & Rhaenyra being allowed to have only one female friend make it they had to put distance between her & Daemon/ Laena. And we're supposed to accept Daemon & Rhaenyra would be ok marrying together right after years where being far away from each other without bothering writing letters & after the many times he left Rhaenyra in vulnerable positions.

One thing that could have accentued the fact Alicent feels isolated at court was because despite the allegations of Viserys's grandchildren being illegitimate & everything, Rhaenyra, Harwin (who had the control of City Watch) the Velaryons & Daemon formed a constant & strong united front against her. Splitting the group like that, making Laenor an asshole who doesn't give a fuck about his kids but still get to name the newborn Joffrey without consulting Rhaenyra hurt the story & its characters. You tell me that he loves swordfighting but then wouln't at least bother to participate into the martial education of his sons ( & maybe would have helped Harwin to deck one or two on Criston for y'know, killing his lover 10 years ago & the unfair treatment of their kids) ?

Laenor & Laena are also the kids of Corlys & Rhaenys who are portrayed as politically savy & in an healthy relationship & you tell me that it wouldn't influence how their kids navigates court politics & how to conduct their relationships? Prior to marrying Rhaenyra, Laenor was Corlys's heir & he wanted for Laena to become queen. This episode should have been about how the factions started forming but instead everyone is isolated from each other so???

I can understand Daemon having an affinity with dragonriders but I don't think he would neglect Rhaena, knowing she could still potentially bond with an already living dragons like he did with Caraxes & Laena with Vhagar. Also if Daemon is away from court, how did he got the eggs for his daughters? Did Vhagar had a clutch with Caraxes? It also rid of one of the few of Daemon redeeming qualities that he cares fiercely about his family.

I need showrunners to understand death linked to childbirth also often happen after birth due to pulmonary embolism, hemorrhage etc... There was absolutely no need to repeat what happened to Aemma & knowing that Laena was portrayed by a black actress , she didn't need a " warrior" death to show of how much of a Strong black woman tm she is. She could still had have a peaceful dragon rider death by expending that detaillled book scene & having her ride Vhagar last one time if they just wanted & passing away with Daemon helping her instead of giving her a painful traumatic bbq death. Anyway I need for showrunners to understand that feminism for black women is different than for a white women, as our " strenght" is used as an excuse to abuse black women on a systemic level & thus deny the right to feel comforted, vulnerable, loved etc...

Also yikes to Laena accepting herself as a placeholder & fridging her because "Daemon deserved it" (when they didn't even took the effort to developp their relationship). Double-yikes.

How did Daemon suddendly manages to solves his problem of impotency?

Harwin last goodbye was sweet but also... don't do that when you're currently under suspicions of fucking a royal? Will Jace putting two & two about him being his father impact the story & his relationship to Rhaenyra or??

Beside that, Alicent, Larrys, Criston & Lyonel Strong moments were from great to OK. Larrys feels like what we should have got of Varys & Littlefinger. Alicent doesn't feel like they just made her into a Cerseï 2.0 while still retaining some of her book edge.

Also sad yeah for Heleana being neurodivergent into insects. Girl deserves going on bug catching trips instead of dealing with the shitshow that is KL & Aegon II who looks perfectly detestable in a fun way currently. Wasn't expecting Aemond being the one being bullied here at first & we can see Criston & Alicent will play a role into having the kids antagonizing the Strong boys afterwards.

But the quality of the story really dipped concerning the Blacks.

[low-budget-korra]

House of The Dragon s01 - Review

Time jumps

I understand why they have to happen, and I'm glad Martin told HBO to make the prelude of the Dance, since the ideia was to make the Dance happen right away.

And as a prelude, all that happened before the Dance was well put and made. Criston and Alicent relationship with Rhaenyra, Otto's intentions, Daemon and Rhaenyra, Viserys being a weak and good king, The Velaryons, The Strongs, the kids.... All that happened was well done. We could see why characters stood by team Green or team Black, we see what happened to characters have certain decisions and feelings towards each other.

Yet, as a fan, I wish I've got to see more of Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship before all goes to hell, Rhaenyra and Harwin, Daemon and Laena, Rhaenyra and Laena, the kids being kids and then turn into life long enemies. For me, they could easily make a season one of 10 episodes that would have ended right after the major time skip. And the in the 9 episode of the s2, Luke will be murdered and then the Dance as we know would started, and why episode 9? Because in the season finale we would see the aftermath of Luke's death and Aemond actions.

I feel that the showrunners may have fear that this structure wouldn't please the fans since the last seasons of GOT was about battle and high stakes and not the slow burning of the first ones.

Alicent and Rhaenyra

Let's be honest, they own the show. Doesn't matter how much we like Daemon, the kids, or any other characters, Alicent and Nyra are the main characters and carry the show on their backs, especially Nyra.

The show really took time to humanize Alicent, which is great, makes her an compelling villain (or a grey character in the eyes of many)

I think that the prophecy being one of Rhaenyra motivations for the throne was also good, gives her a sense of sacrificing for the "greater good". I don't like that they give it to Alicent too.

But I miss the "I want because I want" mentality that both have in the book. Anyway,They were the best part of the show and Olivia Cooke deserves a Emmy nomination for her work. Emma did a great job too but Alicent scenes was more of a heavy work, I think Emma will get more of those in s2

Changes, changes and changes

This reviews was supposed to be bigger and better but after learning what's happened in the season finally, I needed to include this here.

I understand that some changes need to be made, not only as a form to adapt something that wouldn't work on live action but also as choosing the version of events the show will portray. Let's not forget that the history of the Dance is tell by people's versions of what happens and they can or cannot be true and the show was supposed to show us what actually happened and for the most part I've gotta say, they did good.

But when the season finale was getting closer, they really started to turn all into a fanfiction, the bad type fanfiction.

Are you telling me that the biggest war between the Targaryen's happened mostly because of misunderstandings and accidents? Really? Why can you give the characters their own acts, the credit for their acts? Oh, because you don't want your fav being caught doing something bad right?

And just how they took a season worth of character development and throw all of that in window because you want the enemies of your favs looking bad in the eyes of the audience. Daemon murdered a man just because he insulted his beloved wife but know all of sudden he becomes violently with her? What? And that scene with Luke's death? Bullshit. Aemond must be a terrible Dragonrider for, even after years, he didn't bond enough with Vhagar for her to listen to him, or he really is just dumb enough to think that "prank" wouldn't end with a death.

Anyway, so according to the showrunners the war that cause the end of the dragons happened because Alicent misheard the words of a dying old man and because some old ass dragon was so old that probably didn't heard her Dragonrider command. God forbid if the characters was actually the responsible for the war thanks to their wish's.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

I was just wondering if you have any Daemon lives AU headcanons where instead of dying he's a hostage (Aegon and Aemon still die)

I have headcanons on what Daemon likes for breakfast (blueberries with clotted cream on toast), so it’d be odd if I didn’t have headcanons for this fascinating but utterly heartbreaking AU. 

See, we know from canon that Daemon takes the knightly code deadly seriously and also desperately loves his family. A worse man may have left Gwayne Corbray to bleed out rather than get him to a maester after a long duel, so he’s willing to put the safety of his opponents over his immediate goals. Furthermore, he refused to leave the field after Bl00draven shot Aegon and died trying to protect him from the field of arrows. Canon also shows Daemon to be a capable individual despite refusal to “cut corners” with dishonor, able to win all battles except the close-fought Redgrass and to mint coins despite less than a year between the start of the rebellion and his death. The idea that Bl00draven and Daemon may have had a closer relationship than apparent is popular in fandom based on BR’s comment in aDwD to the point that some speculate Daemon willingly told Brynden that he would crown himself (I don’t believe he would, but I’m willing to concede Daemon had warm feelings for the boy who was raised in KL with him). Yet Bl00draven had his children shot in front of him. What I’m saying is that watching his sons die due to a brother he once trusted would’ve caused Daemon to become a more ruthless, less compassionate person who would go great lengths to protect the rest of his family. He has to evaluate what family is and to consider that some people might not be able to be “saved” from a broken home, and that he can’t be “the hero” to the people who really needed him to be (in this case, his oldest sons and wayward brother). Think about those AU fics where Catelyn Stark survives the Red Wedding and invests all her energy into keeping Sansa safe from the Lannisters, except the Lannisters were people she loved.

Daemon is in a stronger position than you might think because the Reds have none of his family in custody. Aegon and Aemon are dead on the field, Aegor Rivers is either dead or escaped (I seriously doubt Bl00draven would capture Aegor alive when doing so gains him nothing), and Rohanne escaped to Tyrosh with her younger children (if she hadn’t already, as I’m sure she had an escape ship in case of Daemon’s defeat). So we have a situation where Rohanne with the force of her fleet want Daemon back and those at King’s Landing keeping Daemon I as a hostage to prevent this fleet from attacking. There aren’t any cases in awoiaf that I can think of where the leader of the rebellion/war was captured and not executed, although in the Dance Alicent and Helaena were suggested as headed for the Faith and Maegor’s Kingsguard had the opportunity to go to the Wall, so supposing Daemon doesn’t get executed the Wall may be his ultimate fate. That is, if there isn’t a plot to rescue him from KL (maybe Quickfinger the Notorious Thief is still at large and uses some light-fingered trickery/guard switching).

Baelor, Da3ron II, and Bl00draven rehash their canonical argument about the defeated rebels with the added wrinkle of Daemon still living. Baelor believed in clemency for the supporters of Daemon, so he might actually want Daemon go to trial and face his accusers in Da3ron and Bl00draven (in which case, obviously Daemon is going to want a Trial by the Seven with such Hanging Judges), which may end with a Wall sentence. Bl00draven wants the Blackfyre supporters crushed utterly and would advocate for Daemon’s execution without trial because he believes Daemon too dangerous to be left alive and whatever public statement he makes could lead to rioting. Then Da3ron, who canonically took lands and hostages from the rebels, brings the child hostages to King’s Landing where Daemon can see them from afar (since I don’t believe he’d be let out to mingle with them, but it would make him feel guilty at what happened to these kids “”because of him”” and also might deter him from escape.) All three of them may visit Daemon individually while he’s under house arrest, Bl00draven almost certainly (Daemon refuses to speak to him and does not buy his ‘it’s war so it’s OK to kill children’ excuses like BR hopes, leading BR into a characteristic self-pity spiral) and Baelor to try to convince him to take the black.

Daemon falls into a depression and has nightmares about watching his sons die. He loses weight from lack of activity and appetite, maybe even going on a hunger strike to agitate for certain privileges. Without any hot irons his naturally curly hair gains volume, and his natural resemblance to his mother Daena shines through; the parallels between Daena’s captivity in the Maidenvault and his in the Red Keep, both by brothers, isn’t lost on him (maybe Princess Elaena is allowed to visit and they have a conversation on that). He does quite a bit of writing about his captivity, his family, why he made the decision to rebel (if he did and it wasn’t an unjust arrest) in preparation for a hypothetical trial; if it goes on long enough, he might ask for Daeron I’s Conquest of Dorne to do commentaries on them regarding the nature of war and how “no one welcomes armed missionaries”; whether any of this writing is allowed to be published depends on if it could be smuggled out. Either way, any warm feelings for the current Targaryens he may have had are gone and if he agrees to play by their rules, it’d be out of desire to keep his remaining family away from KL. Da3ron is so paranoid about Daemon’s possible escape that he pulls a Cersei and constantly switches his guards so Daemon doesn’t form any attachments with them. Daemon ends up lonely, and initially is so lost in memories about deceased loved ones he doesn’t even think of escape, but supposing he gains more purpose in escape or getting out his message. 

Either the AU ends with Daemon’s mysterious “suicide” in prison or escape to Tyrosh. Daemon would absolutely lie to Baelor about agreeing to take the black because he could reason that an oath made to an enemy under duress isn’t binding (pre-Redgrass Daemon would probably not do this, but oathbreaking doesn’t seem terrible now), so that option is out. An execution would spark outcry over kinslaying similar to how Aegon II executed Rhaenyra (even though she’s considered an usurper, what he did to her is still thought of as barbaric), and Da3ron II understands this enough so that Bl00draven could kill Daemon in prison and claim it was due to grief over his murdered sons. Taking Daemon’s age, popularity, position in the royal family, and based on BR’s staunch anti-Blackfyre stance and Da3ron’s dislike, staying in Red custody is a death sentence. However, with his escape to Tyrosh, I have the feeling he and Rohanne would live a decent enough life in her city without wanting to go back to Westeros. After Aegon and Aemon’s deaths, an escaped!Daemon would not risk his children’s lives for rulership he doesn’t want or pointless revenge. I don’t even think Aegor still being alive in this AU would change his mind. Then the plot would focus on whether he and Rohanne can still live with each other over what happened with their children, and Daemon’s foray into Tyroshi politics plus more book-writing of the sort he’d do in hypothetical prison.

And now I just made myself sad. But how could I be anything else, as a fan of House Blackfyre?

[moonlitgleek]

"I don’t understand the trend of acting like being a good political/king and being a good parent are mutually exclusive that pops up every now and then in Martin’s writing." Is that a trend? I can only recall Ned and even he's debatable considering how many equate his political downfall with his political skills. Also, characters like Viserys II, Jaehaerys II, Aegon V or even Visenya were good politicians and bad parents. I doubt Tyrion would be a good dad as of ADWD, but he was a good Hand. (+)

(+) Can you please elaborate on that?            

You’re doing great on your own so I don’t know what you need me for :) But I’d disagree with the inclusion of Tyrion here because I don’t think that it’s fair to use his mindset in ADWD when he is suffering from a violent depressive episode as an indicator of what his parenting skills might be like, and I’d say that his relationship with Tommen and Myrcella is more indicative of his possible parenting. Aegon V is a hard case because I wouldn’t call him a bad parent, but his actions in washing his hands off Aerys and Rhaella’s marriage are highly suspect. He could and should have done better.

Unfortunately, we have more cases of not particularly good parents who make for good politicians than we have of good parents whose political action is questionable. The latter list pretty much starts and ends with Ned Stark. I don’t think that Ned was necessarily bad at politics because I actually like a lot of his policy and we were shown that his political theory is very much sound, but Ned has demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of the institutional power of his office and failed to utilize it which contributed greatly to his downfall. No, wait…. Rhaenyra Targaryen might belong on that list too. I know I’ve previously compared her parenting decision in dismissing the fact that the 5-year-old Luke was armed with a dagger that he took his uncle’s eye with to Cersei’s own dismissal of Joffrey’s violence but aside from that one instance, Rhaenyra doesn’t seem to have enabled or encouraged her sons’ bad tendencies. The abuse and favoritism that Cersei showed towards her children is absent from Rhaenyra’s behavior with her sons, whom she looks to have loved equally and fervently and tried her damndest to protect. Rhaenyra listened to her children’s arguments, particularly Jace’s and heeded his counsel and suggestions. And between her sons and her stepdaughters, I’d say she raised some darn good kids who didn’t seem to carry any negative influence from her parenting. Needless to say, Rhaenyra was also a rather terrible queen.

For the “good politicians but bad parents” list, you’ve got Viserys II who held the realm together as Hand over the tenure of three kings and largely shouldered the burden of ruling for much of their reign but who looks to have been largely absent from his children’s lives, unless he was forcing young Naerys into an abusive unwanted marriage then twiddling his thumbs while she suffered and almost died, or putting down fires from Aegon’s hedonism with minimal effort to course-correct him. Hoster Tully is clearly painted as an able political actor, but he was an awful father to Lysa, and to a much lesser extent Edmure. Jaehaerys II managed to form a strong coalition and unite Westeros against the Band of Nine right on the heels of a great personal tragedy, but he echoes Viserys’ sin in enabling his daughter’s suffering and contributing to her health complications by wedding her young to her disliked brother. Randyll Tarly is a capable commander and shrewd politician, but his horrifying abuse of Sam speaks for itself. Tywin Lannister fits only to the extent of his administrative abilities as Hand, but his general politics are violent and decadent, and his parenting is notoriously abusive.

There are a few cases that I suspect GRRM will use the same trend with, though I’m still holding out hope that he won’t. But I see where he might apply that same dichotomy with Daeron II and/or Maekar. I hope I’m wrong but Fire and Blood had taught me to expect the worse then rant about it.