#undercover lover jon

[waitingforwinterwinds]

ASOS; Steel and Snow: 15 JON II (pages 202-219)

Jon counts the giants, enjoys the latest songfic interlude, then has to answer some hard questions as Mance's scouts discover the aftermath of the Epilogue at the Fist.

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"Big enough for you?" Snowflakes speckled Tormund's broad face, melting in his hair and beard.

gentle like a lover's kiss ahem. sorry, I just came from some pure, 300% crack fic in another fandom, my brain is... I might need a moment. Just got to remind myself Tormund is older, and Jon is younger, than their show counterparts.

... yep, that seems to have worked, I think the giggle-brain is off. We'll see if it stays that way.

In Old Nan's stories, giants were outsized men who lived in colossal castles, (...) These were something else, more bearlike than human, and as wooly as the mammoths they rode. Seated it was hard to say how big they turly were. Ten feet tall maybe, or twelve, Jon thought. Maybe fourteen, but no taller. Their sloping chests might have passed for those of men, but their arms hung down too far, and their lower torsos looked half again as wide as their upper. Their legs were shorter than their arms, but very thick, and they wore no boots at all; their feet were broad splayed things, hard and horny and black. Neckless, their huge heavy heads thrust forward from between their shoulder blades, and their faces were squashed and brutal. Rats' eyes no larger than beads were almost lost within folds of horny flesh, but they snuffled constantly, smelling as much as they saw. They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. (...) And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke the giants from the earth. (...) The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep.

Huh. GRRM gave us something so alien, something ancient and primal, and D&D gave us... well:

A more handsome Qui-gon Jin in skins. (Went looking for Wun Wun reference pictures and made myself sad. It's okay, they only killed him off in the show because they didn't want to use their budget for the cg needed to paste him into the shots. he's fine. don't tell me if he's not. Let me have this.)

D&D suck at their job = 🍷 ... hmmm... Horn of Winter = 🥛

I am a man of the Night's Watch, he reminded himself. So why did he feel like some blushing maid. He spent most of his days in Ygritte's company, and most nights as well. ... Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling... well, that stirred some things as well. But he was a man of the Night's Watch, her had taken a vow.

So at the moment, it does seem like his lack of interest is more about the vow, than actual lack of interest, but, at the same time, it's never going to be that simple because Jon is undercover, and any relationship between them would be under false pretenses, with possible Stockholm flavouring on the side.

(Stockholm Syndrome isn't real, but you all know what I mean when I say it. Clarifying that: apparently Stockholm Syndrome was originally invented to discredit a woman (a bank teller) after a bank hold up, during which time the only person with any power over the event who wasn't (effectively) fully prepared for her to die in the event, was one of the bank robbers. The "negotiation expert" who had a psych background and had actually made everything worse every time he opened his mouth, invented what would later come to be called Stockholm Syndrome, because she (the bank teller) tried to tell the world he sucked at his job. As far as I know, it's not really a recognised thing in the psych field itself, you only really see it bandied about with cops and feds and the like. That said, humans really will attempt to pack bond with anything, even under duress, and even subconsciously. Alpha Male Swag Bros, miss me with your Lone Wolf Bullshit.)

Although, while we're on the subject:

Hey Robb! Look how easy it is to keep it in your pants for a vow.

I know, I know, he was emotionally compromised, I'm being mean to him. Too mean, especially given... future relationship evolution. That, may or may not, go on to seal his doom. and the doom of his entire faction.

Varamyr Sixskins, a small mouse of a man whose steed was a savage white snow bear that stood thirteen feet tall on its hind legs. And wherever the bear and Varamyr went three wolves and a shadowcat came following.

"Sixskins" because he can warg into the skins of five animals? So he has six skins including his human skin? Pokemon, gotta wear 'em all.

If that is the case, I've got to wonder if being the recipient of a warg changes the subtle nature and awareness of the animal for the five creatures to be ... well maybe not safe for public, but tamed enough I suppose.

... Jon's making a good point, Mance's warriors being spread out means they have no solid defense anywhere along the train, but, given that it's a refugee caravan in reality, it's actually pretty smart to spread the warriors out. It ensures that where ever a threat comes from, there will be someone close by to respond quickly, and given everything, the only things around that could cut through the host quickly and violently enough to make the warriors pointless no matter how closely group they are, would be maybe the Watch, but more likely: The Others and their Wights.

"Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth."

oh.

The video I grabbed Wun Wun screenshots from was set to this song. I'm not crying. you're crying. Okay, It's me. I'm crying.

Gosh, I was literally just listening to this song and I was thinking "fuck this slaps, came straight for my feels, this has to be a fan song right? specifically written for this? It's too perfect not to be."

and it was GRRM! He wrote it!

... and D&D fucking cut it from the show like it meant nothing. They cut so much of the music from the show, like the books have had at least two, three songfic chapters by now, plus there's been, what? a dozen references to music going on in the background of various scenes, music and song is so present in A Song of Ice and Fire, you'd think D&D would have kept more of it. Oh, but I guess singing is boring when you can shove in more blood spray and cool sword action.

D&D suck at their job = 🥛

There were tears on Ygritte's face when the song ended. "Why are you weeping?" Jon asked. "It was only a song. there are hundreds of giants, I've just seen them." "Oh, hundreds," she said furiously. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. you- JON!"

The only reason, that I am not currently taking another drink, and/or smashing D&D's kneecaps with a steel chair, is because while D&D turned this line into a meme about Jon's sex knowledge, they also turned it into an evolving meaning line. (Where in as the line is repeated, its nuance and meaning changes, or the characters'/readers' relation with it does.)

Because, D&D made this line so memeable, but it is so rage filled? Like, Ygritte is so (justifiably and rightfully) angry at Jon's ignorance here.

Jon says 'hundreds,' but we aren't given an exact number here. Fun Fact: a species with a population of 250 mature adults or less is considered Endangered and at risk of Extinction. Fun Fact: a species which has lost between 50 and 70% of its average population can also be considered endangered.

That's just talking about the giants that are here, now. I'm getting vibes that these are either not the giants from the songs, the giants know their days are numbered, or this song is old and the giants have come so close to extinction in the past that any of them being alive now is a miracle.

Jon doesn't know, I don't know, but Jon is making light of Ygritte's emotional response because he doesn't know, and Ygritte has every right to be upset by that.

But No, D&D saw a chance for a sex joke.

... oh shit, BIRB OF DEATH SCRITCHIES!!!

Actually, given how much of himself Bran's been loosing in the warg, I wonder if keeping your sense of self is something you can teach, so that even after death, the warg in the bird knows what he's doing, or if the death grudge is just so strongly imprinted on the warg, that even lost to the animal instincts and mind of the bird, the hatred for Jon lives on, even if the warg/bird no longer understands why he hates this human specifically.

"There were three hundred of us." "Us?" Mance said sharply. "Them. Three hundred of them." Whatever is asked, the Halfhand said. So why do I feel so craven?

Probably because you've just realised you are alone with no back up from the Watch, telling Mance is different when it's a ploy you can justify as orders, compared to now when the plan, such as it is, has been stripped away and all that's left is handing over information to save your own life because your people are already dead.

I do love that he spared a moment to wonder after Sam. besties!

(... It would be a little funny (to me) if he mentioned the worry about Sam out loud, and Ygritte and Tormund (and others) got the impression that Jon's just not into girls. Cock works fine, he's just not into girls. ... except with how this series treats non-straight sexualities, and the free folk's focus on siring strong children. meh, free folk are free-love/love-is-love positive AU)

... I can't decide how I feel about the book Ygritte/Jon ship.

On one hand, she is protecting him, lying to say he's more loyal to the free folk than he is, at her own risk. But then she turns around and uses that to make him feel indebted, even if that wasn't her intention, because, on the other hand, like Tormund was saying earlier in the chapter, by the ways of the free folk, Jon has 'stolen' Ygritte, by her own culture, they're effectively in a relationship already, Jon did the equivalent of courting.

I don't know, I think, book version, I'd feel more comfortable seeing more shifting in their power dynamics, a sense of equality and friendship grown free of deception, some time apart and a reunion in which they're actually meeting on equal footing before any kind of sexual shenanigans happened.

(I'm just one of those people who thinks fully informed consent is The sexiest thing in the universe. followed closely by competence.)

Show ship had more appearance of equal footing, and the actor chemistry carried a lot of the ship weight for me. There was more return flirting before they wound up in the cave, and afterwards, the regrets (felt like they) were about ending up on opposing sides, and then never getting a chance to reconcile before she was dying in his arms.

[reginarubie]

"The ice crystals had settled over her(ygritte) face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask."- Jon(ASOS VII). "Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses, and melted on her cheeks."-Sansa(ASOS VII). Ygritte died in night while Sansa waken up at Dawn. Ice Crystals as silver mask vs Snowflakes as lover's kiss. Ygritte and Sansa are both redhead.

Ciao anon!,

Ah yes, the foil that convinced me of the real possibility of Jonsa playing a part in Jon's arc beyond all the other evidences. Let's say that I wholeheartedly believe that Jonsa will play a part in the coming books, though neither Jon and Sansa might ever act on it, though I dearly hope they will act someway on it. Even if I fear that Martin will play on the linger conviction and overall feeling of the other being the most important person for them and yet never acting on it because of their upbringing. How heartbreaking and realistic and encompassing would it be to read them being in love, being passionate about each other and it playing a part in their decision making, but then actually never acting on it properly because of their upbringing? Bittersweet and plausible. I hate the fact that I fear that this might be where Martin is headed.

Anyway.

Ygritte has died and thus the ice-crystals that fall on her pale cheeks remain a bronze mask of ice, because there is no more warmth underneath her skin. There is no more life in her, yet Ygritte has always lacked warmth toward Jon. Lust, yes, passion of course; but not the warmth of tenderness Jon has always dreamed of.

On the opposite Sansa, instead, is filled with the warmth Jon has desired his whole life, she is alive, despite every death threat thrown her way, with that tenderness, and she is waking at dawn (war for dawn anyone?, they are literally fighting a war for dawn, for the dawn of eternal spring and as I stated before Sansa is a late winter, early spring child, born possibly at the beginning of spring when the world starts to wake up again after its ‘apparent’ death during wintertime; also the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna happened during the year of false spring, will Jon/Sansa happen at the beginning of real, eternal spring?, just as Sansa was born at the beginning of spring as the first child born of love between Ned and Cat in Winterfell? — like c'mon how many hints are pointing at this already?); and in fact Jon is attracted to Ygritte when he sees the reflection of Sansa's tenderness in her (Sansa brushing Lady's coat and singing softly to herself vs Ygritte singing around the fire); why, when Jon thinks of Sansa seeing beyond the Wall (the same sight he shares with Ygritte atop the Wall after their climb) he thinks that ‘Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it’ and he, himself, thinks of the sight like ‘a proof that there is magic beyond the Wall’.

Sansa is that warmth and tenderness Jon dreamed of in a lover, and it's why snowflakes («my name is Jon Snow») kiss her cheeks and melt there — like a lover would melt against her — like a lover's kisses. I mean, c'mon what kind of romanticity is this, Martin?, give us more of this chanson the geste's romance! We demand it. It's also cause his passion for Ygritte was short-lived and that fire snuffed out easily, leaving no lingering warmth behind, something that even only his familial love for Sansa has succeeded of doing as Jon's memories of Sansa are filled with tenderness and warmth.

Also, a silver mask, Jon's love for Ygritte was born of a farce, to prove his loyalty to the wildling while undercover. It was false, born of the need to prove himself true to his captors while she is a sexual predator. Hence the falsity of it, while I don't argue that the feelings are real, but it is not real love.

While the snow melts on Sansa's cheeks, because Sansa's face and true soul — her warmth — melts away the mask of Alayne Stone.

Poetry I am telling you, it totally rhymes and that means they are endgame imo (even if only in their private spheres without ever acting on it, in the time-span of the story, leaving room open for a future development beyond A song of Ice and Fire).

Thank you for your ask.

Totally unrelated but, we do realise how well and intimately Jon knows Sansa and seeing beyond the Wall he basically describes the very feelings Sansa feels the moment she steps through the garden cloaked in snow of the Eyrie finding the sight of it in wintery snow so lovely she almost doesn't breath at the wonder of it? Poetry I tell you.

As always hope you enjoyed and I wish you a very nice day!

part II

[my-chaos-radio-90s-list]

The 90s List

Update: Every Sunday

Last:       April 21, 2024

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2 Become 1 - Spice Girls

3 A.M. Eternal (Live At The S.S.L.) - The KLF

3 Is Family - Dana Dawson

7 Seconds - Youssou N'Dour, Neneh Cherry

‘74-‘75 - The Connells

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A Better Love - Londonbeat

A Dream’s A Dream - Soul II Soul

A Girl Like You - Edwyn Collins

A Moment’s Shifting - Anything Box

A Neverending Dream - X-Perience

A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Annie Lennox

Adiemus - Adiemus

Adiemus - Karl Jenkins

Ain’t No Doubt - Jimmy Nail

Ain’t That Just The Way - Lutricia McNeal

Airwave - Rank 1

Alane - Wes

All That She Wants - Ace Of Base

All I Wanna Do - Sheryl Crow

All I Wanna Do Is Make Love To You - Heart

All I Want - The Lightning Seeds

All The Small Things - blink-182

All Together Now - The Farm

Alright - Supergrass

Always - Erasure

Am I The Same Girl? - Swing Out Sister

Another Night - Real McCoy

Another Way - Gigi D'Agostini

As I Lay Me Down - Sophie B. Hawkins

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Baby, Baby - Amy Grant

Back Here - BBMak

Bailamos - Enrique Iglesias

Bakerman - Laid Back

Baker Street - Undercover

Barbie Girl - Aqua

Be My Lover - La Bouche

Beautiful Morning - Ace Of Base

Being Boring - Pet Shop Boys

Believe - Cher

Bellisima - DJ Quicksilver

Better Off Alone - Alice Deejay

Bitter Sweet Symphony - The Verve

Bla Bla Bla - Gigi D'Agostino

Blaze Of Glory - Jon Bon Jovi

Blood On The Dancefloor - Michael Jackson

Blue (Da Ba Dee) - Eiffel 65

Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom!! - Vengaboys

Born To Make You Happy - Britney Spears

Break My Stride - Unique II

Breakfast At Tiffany’s - Deep Blue Something

Buffalo Stance - Neneh Cherry

Burning Down The House - Tom Jones, The Cardigans

Butterfly - Crazy Town

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C U When U Get There - Coolio

Call My Name - Orchestral Manoeuvres In The Dark

Calling Your Name - E-Type

Can You Forgive Her? - Pet Shop Boys

Chattahoochee - Alan Jackson

Children - Robert Miles

Club At The End Of The Street - Elton John

Come Undone - Duran Duran

Connected - Stereo MC’s

Conquest Of Paradise - Vangelis

Cotton Eye Joe - Rednex

Countdown - Lindsey Buckingham

Cradle Of Love - Billy Idol

Crazy Town - Butterfly

Cream - Prince & The New Power Generation

Cryin’ - Aerosmith

Crying In The Rain - a-ha

Cult Of Snap! - Snap!

[disneyprincessbuffyannesummers]

Outlaw King is amazing (so far), it’s not only giving me Jonsa vibes, but it gives me season 7 vibes.

[medschoolash]

im a casual fan & even i can tell political jon is a highly likely scenario from one scene alone. in 6x07 when jonsa met with lord glover & he said tho his family served the starks 1000yrs, mourned ned's death,fought & bled for the starks & the north.his family was brutalized & killed & robb repaid that by taking up with a foreign whore!!! they spelled it out to us, jon was right there and you're going to tell me after everything, he decided to be robb 2.0 coz dany's coochie was that good??lmao

yeah I mean, we had Sansa telling Jon he can’t make the same mistakes as their father and brother....Ned trusted the wrong southern people and was too honorable to play the game well, Robb broke his oath and married a foreign whore.

we also had the northern Lords straight up voicing how anti foreign ruler they are how anti being dragged into a war by a leader who leads with his dick and not his brain more than once in front of Jon. 

and yet people who swear political Jon is merely the delusions of Jon and Sansa shippers swear those were all negligible filler scenes with zero purpose or impact on Jon or the narrative and it makes complete sense for him to be beguiled by Dany’s pyromaniac power hungry coochie even at the expense of his entire kingdom and the people he professed to advocate for above all more than once. 

They also expect us to believe that he actually did play the game as foolishly as robb and ned and will be the special snowflake that will still escape the series with his head even tho Ned and Robb died brutally for their individual mistakes. And not only will he live despite being the worst parts of Ned and Robb he’s going to be rewarded with his targaryen queen, the iron throne, and his always hoped for Targaryen incest heir 

[myrish-lace-love]

Here's what always gets me about boatb@ng: it COULD have been epic. They could have dedicated 20 minutes to that scene and no one would have blinked an eye - most important hook up in GOT history right? Big build-up, lots of flirting, Daenerys gets flustered and leaves, Jon goes to her door, opens it, sweeping love confession, first kiss, slowly taking off clothes, touching and kissing scars, joking arond, teasing,  the "what will happen after this" discussion, super sexy sex, afterglow cuddling.

I think that's what people expected, but it's not what they got. And to this day there's a small (small!) part of me that wishes we had, because I wouldn't be wondering about undercover lover Jon if GOT had made that play. I'd still be betting on jonsa at least as a political match at the end of the series, but I wouldn't be questioning whether Jon and Daenerys are in love now.

[minervacrawley]

How Doreah maybe foreshadow Jonsa

@occupyvenus the more I think about the fact that Dany slept with Doreah and after that she slept with Jon, the more I come up with other parallels:

Wasn’t Doreah the one that

1. Tells stories about the origin of dragons (mystic creatures everyone thinks to be gone) and is not believed

2. Has such a good relationship with her that Irri (wo really worships Dany) becomes jealous/suspicious

3. Dany even says is loved by Drogon

4. (Seems to be)/is in love with Dany

5. Functions as Dany’s “spy” to get information about Xaro’s people (and the people of Qarth)

(bonus: calls Dany a “princess” and therefore not by her more powerful title as a “khaleesi”, which enrages Irri and bonus 2: has a close connection to Viserys, Dany’s brother and the only person to call her “Dany” so far)

but in the end betrayed Dany, killed loyal Irri, stole the dragons and planned to become queen together with Xaro (a man that gave her Khalasaar shelter in his city/Qarth against the other “lords” will but only after she threatens it with her dragons and then even let her stay in his home, only to use her dragons for his cause) ?

(bonus: Dany caught them inflagranti)

If you replace the name Irri with Tyrion and dragons with white walkers, you have a person that fulfills points one to four: Jon. His current situation parallels Doreah’s before her betrayal.

(and I’m pretty sure that Jon will have to function as Danys source of information about the Northern lords)

And if you replace Qarth with Winterfell, queen with king and Xaro with Sansa, you have something I would call foreshadowing.

(inspired by the mention of a Jon/Doreah/Dany-scene-parallel by @shinynewrevulsions on that post https://occupyvenus.tumblr.com/post/168534152348/a-baleful-howl-merrysansas-every-jonerice by @merrysansas)

(Actually, that functions somehow as a point 2 to my other parallel-post: https://minervacrawley.tumblr.com/post/166987446672/why-parallels-arent-always-a-good-sign-or-danis?is_related_post=1)

[amymel86]

The Hidden Wolf Symbolism?

Anyone want to hear some total reaching from an ‘undercover Jon’ believer? Yeah? Ok - strap in...(if you don’t believe in the theory, that’s fine, I’m not trying to convince anyone with this - just lemme have my fun alright?! - also I hate the term ‘undercover Jon’)....fyi - this is tagged ‘Jonsa’ purely because a lot of my Jonsa fam are keen on the ‘undercover Jon’ theory - so feel free to scroll right on if that doesn’t interest you.

I was recently reminded of the above GOT S7 promo (above) and I remember when I first saw it that I noticed that just as the stone dragon is crumbling, it resembles a wolf.

You can’t tell me that that didn’t resemble a direwolf! Look at the ear!

I didn’t ponder too much about it at the time - I just thought it was a clever little representation of Jon himself. But, if that were the case, then it should have been a wolf crumbling with a hidden dragon, right?

So the dragon is reaching up to be on top, and just as it starts fracturing and breaking into shards of stone - it looks like a wolf to me. Almost as if the concealed wolf was, in part, the cause for the dragon’s destruction (and I obviously don’t need to spell out the symbolism of that and how it lends itself to the undercover Jon theory.)

It could just represent Jon and D as a union or alliance but the fact that everything shatters and is broken doesn’t foretell a happy connection between the two characters to me.

It could represent Lyanna and Rhaegar - but then why is the wolf hidden? Why couldn’t they have the stone dragon and wolf twisting around each other like the other sigils? 

It could be the ‘hidden wolf’ within the Targ lineage, about to be revealed. But lets take a look at some of the other actions of the stone sigils in this promo...

You’ve got:

A stag coming up against a dragon whilst Robert says "...kill every Targaryen I get my hands on." - (Robert’s treasonous actions with his rebellion against the crown and trying to wipe out the last Targaryens)

A lion going for the throat of a stag as Cersei says "Everyone who isn't us, is an enemy." - (Cersei betraying her husband with her Lancel/boar hunt plan)

A wolf comes into shot when Joffrey says "Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!" - (the downfall of Ned when he trusted in the wrong people and was killed for it)

Kraken tentacles wrap around the wolf as Balon says "We are ironborn, we take what is ours." - (representing Theon’s betrayal against Robb and the rest of the Starks)

A lion snarls at the wolf as it’s being overwhelmed by the kraken whilst Roose says "The Lannisters send their regards." and Catelyn screams - (obviously the betrayal surrounding the Red Wedding)

A rose vine wraps around a lion’s paw as you hear Olenna’s voice saying  "You don't think I'd let you marry that beast, do you?" - (Olenna’s treasonous plot to poison Joffrey at his wedding) 

A golden rose goes up in green flame as Qyburn says "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister… Protector of the Seven Kingdoms." -(Cersei’s destruction of House Tyrell when she used her trial to her advantage as a ploy to wipe out her enemies)

And then we get to the dragon/wolf/everything crumbling bit. So I guess I sense a theme with all these incident representations  - Firstly, they are in chronological order, and secondly, they seem to depict some form or other of betrayal. They could have used a number of other happenings from the show, but they didn’t, so I deduce that it’s not totally mad to say that the ‘hidden wolf’ could represent Jon betraying D.

As I said, I’m not trying to convince anyone of the theory, but as I’m enjoying all the little metas and things that others are picking up from the show and books, I thought I’d share something that I noticed.

Anyway, I just wanted to share!

[sxpiosexualx]

Jon Snow knows some things.

I’m on a re-read of A Game of Thrones and I noticed that one of the first things we’re told about Jon is that he’s observant.

“A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.” - Jon I, A Game of Thrones.

As @sneakystarks pointed out, he picks things up about people quite easily. He decides his opinions on them without needing much:

“Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks,” - Jon upon seeing Robert Baratheon.

“Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool,” - upon seeing Myrcella.

“Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.” - upon seeing Joffrey.

 “Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.” - upon seeing Jaime Lannister.

I’m aware the show makes a point to downplay some of Jon’s abilities especially when it comes to being more political. This maybe even to prop up Jonsa as a pairing since Jon takes up the role of the military man on the show, with Sansa being the more politically aware character - the Vale plot would’ve shown her growth but alas, we never truly saw her train - but it’s book canon that he notices things, and he has a skill of picking them up quickly. 

There’s plenty more evidence in Jon I, A Storm of Swords.

“Mance Rayder’s outriders closed in as they emerged. Jon took their measure with a glance: eight riders, men and women both, clad in fur and boiled leather...”

“Both the white-bearded man and the bald one were warriors, that was plain to Jon at a glance.”

I chose this chapter because often when debunking the possibility of the Undercover Lover theory(or political Jon theory), people ignore how Jon managed to fool the Wildlings into believing he was for them. The reality is, he knows how to choose his words carefully, he knows how to sell himself:

“Jon took another swallow of mead. There is only one tale he might believe.”

He says this before he asks Mance if he saw where they had sat him during the feast with King Robert at Winterfell, in contrast to where his other half-siblings were sat.

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” he leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

He knows he has to sell Mance a story that would make him buy Jon’s support, and that’s exactly what he does.

Now, for much of season 7 once Jon meets with D*enerys, it almost feels as if we get shut out from his thought process. Some people have speculated that in the books, at least during his time with D*enerys, we’re likely to not be given his POV chapters as well. But as pointed out by @thelawyerthatwaspromised in their data analysis of diction and the amount of dialogue Jon has, it’s not that Jon is a silent person, he speaks just as much as anybody, he just does significantly less speaking when around D*enerys. Almost as if he’s wary of his words, and is trying to figure her out.

The only time we see Jon speak freely without trying to keep up with seeming courteous is when he asks Missandei about her relationship with D*enerys, in terms of whether or not she’d let her go back to Naath if she wanted. And what does he say to her?

“You believe that?”

It shows that despite what he’s heard about D*enerys, he still questions how reliable of a source Missandei is. And truly, once you think about it, does she really have a choice? I want to believe D*enerys would allow her, and Grey Worm, and her other unsullied/dothraki army to leave if they want to but part of me doubts it just as much. We’ve seen how absolute loyalty is something D*enerys expects from her followers, Varys is threatened to be burned alive if he ever so much as thinks about the good of the realm being something D*enerys can no longer offer, and Tyrion’s loyalty has constantly been questioned this season as well. It is an occurring theme. In fact at this point, she no longer cares if the people want to follow her, they only have one choice: bend the knee or die. Way to go you feminist icon facist.

So the question here is, what is the new and better world D*enerys T*rgaryen wants to build, and can she achieve that? I stumbled across a quote @shinynewrevulsions shared yesterday, by GRRM:

“Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only D*enerys T*rgaryen has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.” -  George R. R. Martin, 2011 Vulture magazine interview, quoted in Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Moreover, the real question is, what little has Jon seen of her, and does he truly believe that she deserves the throne?

He sees her unwillingness to put aside her quest for the throne and help save the North(who will be attacked by the real threat first) in the cave scene, because for some reason, it doesn’t matter if the North is under attack, they aren’t worth saving unless they’re her people. 

He witnessed her little temper tantrum on the beach, humiliating Tyrion and questioning his loyalty in front of her people. Jon and Sansa may disagree from time to time but at least Jon has the sense to talk to her afterwards in private.

She comes back after ambushing an army with her nuclear weapons, telling him she has less enemies now, to which even she notices, “you're not sure how you feel about that.”

And even after seeing the threat, as @nutellaninja0001 pointed out, she still insists on that truce with Cersei, examine 7x06 where she says she doesn’t regret the trip beyond the wall:

now contrast that with 7x07 when she realises Cersei wasn’t willing to call a truce:

In the span of 7x06 to 7x07 we’re presented and reminded that D*enerys will always put the throne first before the lives of other people. Her saviour act where she swoops in in white(the only time she isn’t wearing black and red - embracing more of her Targaryen roots), like the angelic messiah the show wants us to see her as, would not have happened if she wasn’t already smitten with Jon.

She may have had a good heart once before, but Viserys did too, until his ambitions got the better of him. And who do we know is beginning to dress like Viserys? D*enerys. 

I hold the opinion that the ASOIAF series sheds light on the corruption that befalls characters who strive for power. We see it happen with Viserys, and again with Stannis. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So, no, I don’t favour the notion that Jon falls into bed with her because of her good heart, because nothing from what we’ve seen unfold on screen truly supports that. The number one criticism was the lack of chemistry, and while that is subjective, the show has an obligation to make sure we as an audience, get to see this relationship build up to b*atbang. That means shared smiles, maybe some teasing and banter, not other characters butting in to say “hey I saw you look at her tits haha” or “pshh he looks at you like all the time girl he’s so into you!” The fact remains, the majority of us don’t feel as if it was deserved.

What I do see, is Jon beginning to play the game. He has to. He’s this far into the story, it’s time. I’ve seen so many people get disgusted at this idea of Jon manipulating D*nerys into fully committing to the cause. But can you blame him? She tells him: 

“I can’t forget what I saw North of the wall, and I can’t pretend Cersei wont take back half the country the moment I march North.”

And I think some part of him has been trying to manipulate convince her for a while. Take a look at the way Jon tries to get her attention, as pointed out by @tiny-little-bird​:

it parallels the way Sansa gets his attention:

Jon knows how receptive he is when Sansa pulls the good ole arm grab:

and he pulls the same move on D*enerys:

grabbing her arm, guiding her to what he wants her to see, to convince her to see where he’s coming from - much like what Sansa does with Jon(both instances, were to get him to listen to her). Jon is learning.

I don’t doubt that Jon is still honourable, I keep seeing Jon Snow/J*nerys stans argue he would never do this and to that, all I have to say is:

“You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” - Jon II, A Dance With Dragons.

You need to fully grasp what his motives are from every angle to try to understand why he does what he does. Jon knows the real threat is the Night King, but he’s also seen what D*enerys’ weapons of mass destruction dragons can do. She burns her enemies, that much is clear to Jon. 

So what motivates him? Who does he fight for? The living, yes, but what else? What elicits a response from him more primal than others? 

up to this point, it’s been Sansa. Whether or not you ship Jonsa or see them as merely platonic half-siblings, there is no denying that one of Jon’s top priorities is protecting Sansa - the only family he has left.

And the stakes are raised, when he learns that Bran and Arya are back at Winterfell. He has even more to fight for, even more people to protect. And what does he say?

“I thought Arya was dead. I thought Bran was dead.”

Did you, Jon? Because I thought Sansa convinced you to fight to reclaim Winterfell because it was their homes too, wherever they are. Continuity error or not, this was another chance for Jon to open up to D*enerys, much like she has been doing. But he doesn’t. He never opens up to her, not of uncle Benjen, not of the other brothers he’s lost. Why?

Whether or not you believe in the theory that Jon’s been manipulating her, killing the boy Jon Snow and letting the man be born is expected of his character. It almost becomes his own mantra whenever he’s faced with a difficult decision. He needs her to commit to his cause, because it’s the only threat that truly matters and D*enerys comes off as selfish for not committing herself to it completely already after witnessing the Night King herself. He’s tried everything else, taking advantage of her feelings for him to ensure his people live is something that’s necessary at this point. And guess what?

Lastly, I leave you with a quote GRRM said about death:

“All that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever."”

Jon’s death has come and pass in the show, don’t expect him to be the same.

[geekprincess26]

The Straw Clue: Why I Believe Jon Snow is Undercover

A/N: This is a repost of the meta I published yesterday.  I’ve edited it for clarification and because the original post eliminated a couple of key details that I wanted to include.  Hence the revised and (I hope) improved version of this weary Jonsa fan’s attempt to organize her thoughts about the “Undercover Jon” theory and overcome her meta writer’s block once and for all:

Over the past few weeks, I’ve explored all manner of amazing metas and discussions on Tumblr that delve into the “Undercover Jon” theory.  It’s taken me a while to process them all (not to mention calm my nerves, which were so rudely jangled by the season finale) and figure out where I stand on the continuum of opinions among my fellow Jonsa fans, which seems to range the gamut between these two opinions:

1) Jon is a hopelessly honorable Northern fool, just like Ned Stark.  He made the same mistake with the Northern lords this season that he did with the brothers of the Night’s Watch in season 5, when he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall against his brothers’ wishes because he believed with all his heart that it was the right and honorable thing to do, and it would serve his end goal of fighting against the White Walkers.  This season, he made another highly unpopular decision – leaving Winterfell and heading south to Dragonstone – because he believed, once again, that it would serve the higher purpose of saving the North, and all of Westeros, from the White Walkers.  Once at Dragonstone, he found himself outmaneuvered and in over his head.  He found himself imprisoned and Daenerys (mostly) unresponsive to his appeals for assistance and recognition of the demonic force about to envelop Westeros in its icy grasp.  He initially chose to embark on a suicide mission rather than give away his people’s freedom, but over the course of that mission, Daenerys helped him, saved his men’s lives, and lost one of her precious “children” in the process.  Her sacrifice won his trust and respect so completely that he decided she was a worthy ally, worthy enough to rule the North as well as the rest of Westeros.  Trust and respect turned to love, or at least deep admiration, and the boat scene happened.  In other words, he acted like a noble idiot, just as his “father” Ned Stark did.

2) Jon Snow’s time with the Wildlings and his experiences with Northern politics have made him a capable deceiver.  He’ll never be in Petyr Baelish’s league because he is honest and honorable at heart, but he’s become pragmatic and practiced enough to use deception when he deems it necessary in the service of a greater good.  Before heading to Dragonstone, he (with Sansa’s counsel and approval, probably) formed a master plan to spend his time at Dragonstone (a) persuading Daenerys to believe and help him, and, in the event that failed or took any significant length of time, (b) learning every nook and cranny of Daenerys’s and her allies’ strengths and weaknesses so he could use them as leverage to persuade her, if necessary.  He failed to carry out the first prong of this strategy at first, but he succeeded spectacularly at the second.  He observed a great deal about Daenerys, but played the “quiet, brooding Northerner” card so that she could not discover any weaknesses to use against him.  Eventually, he discovered that her crush on him was her greatest weakness, and he took advantage of it to the hilt in episodes 6 and 7 by pretending to bend the knee and convincing her that he returned her affections.  However, he meant none of it, and he doesn’t trust her or her dragons as far as he can throw any of them.  He only did what he did because it was necessary for him to gain her trust and assistance against the White Walkers, and he’ll abdicate the Northern throne in Sansa’s favor if he has to in order to ensure that the North stays free and independent.

The more “Game of Thrones” fans’ opinions I encountered, both within and outside of the Jonsa fandom, the more I also observed a sharp break not too far past point 1) on this continuum.  People who congregate back toward 1) from that point believe some variation of the opinion that Jon truly fell for Daenerys and will be content to relinquish the North to her permanently, even if he initially did not intend to do either.  On the other side of the break are those who believe that Jon’s quick relinquishment of the North and rush of apparent affection for Daenerys are too implausible and inconsistent with his character to be taken at face value.  Therefore, the only plausible explanation for his actions is that he is deceiving Daenerys to some extent in service of his plan to defeat the White Walkers.  People on this side of the continuum may disagree as to the extent of that deception – did he have a master plan complete with backups before he headed off to Dragonstone?  Did he go there with every intention of gaining Daenerys’s assistance by honest means, only to find himself backed into a corner by her skepticism and insistence that he bend the knee, and see deception as the only way to get out of that corner and gain the friendship of a foreigner he didn’t trust but did need in the only way he felt he could?  Was it some odd combination of the two?  However, everyone in this camp seems to agree that at some point Jon decided he could not get Daenerys to help him by employing any means other than deception (whether about his affections, his willingness to bend the knee, or something else), and eventually he did so in order to accomplish the greater good of defeating the Army of the Dead.

When I first watched episodes 6 (ugh) and 7, I found myself in the first camp, and that hit me right in my tender, Jonsa-shipping heart.  Jon Snow may be a man of few words and know how to play his cards close to his chest, but Kit Harington has always managed to convey his emotions beautifully with his mastery of non-verbal cues.  Look at the way he cradled Ygritte’s lifeless body in his arms at Castle Black, or the internal war revealed by the way he grimaced while she was ripping him a new one about being loyal to “his woman” while he and the Wildlings were preparing to climb the Wall.  He looked so defeated at the end of the tent scene before the Battle of the Bastards, when Sansa threw his offer of protection back in his face, that I wanted to leap through the screen and give him a hug.  When he pleaded with the Northern lords to understand his reasons for going to Dragonstone in episode 2 of this season, I disagreed with him, but that sad, hurt look of resigned determination on his face made me want to yell at the Northern lords for ganging up on my poor kicked puppy.  Jon Snow may not speak much except at need, but when he does, he’s usually as honest as they come.  So even though I was very disappointed in his acquiescence to Daenerys, I initially couldn’t find any other explanation for his actions more plausible than “he meant it, because he said it, and Jon Snow’s always been a little too much of a Ned 2.0.”

But then I read countless metas and discussions and thought some more about this season in general and Jon’s behavior in particular.  I re-watched a number of scenes that intrigued me.  That was when it happened: I finally made the leap onto the other side of the continuum break.  I had a number of reasons for doing so, but the factor that tipped the scales – the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back – was the way Jon acted during his final scene in episode 6, when he (seemingly) offered the North to Daenerys without even being asked to do it.  No variation of the “honest Northern fool” theory could account for his behavior to my satisfaction, so that left only one alternative explanation: namely, that Jon meant to secure Daenerys’s aid by using any means necessary, including flattery (“I’m so sorry about your dragon”; “they’ll see you for what you are”), the (likely false) implication that he would hand her the Northern throne, and any other deception he thought necessary to perpetrate.  How exactly did the thought process of a reluctant convert work?  More or less like this:

During his last scene of the episode “Beyond the Wall,” I watched Jon Snow, heretofore one of my favorite “Game of Thrones” characters, disappear before my very eyes.  Gone was the skeptical, strait-laced, reluctant (and not always competent) diplomat who had to that point stubbornly refused to hand his beloved North over to the mercurial Daenerys Targaryen, whom he had plenty of reasons not to trust.  As soon as he opened his eyes from his berth on Daenerys’s ship to see her staring at him, he was replaced by the character I now refer to as “Doppelganger Jon.”  He turned on a dime into a starstruck, lovelorn knight all too willing to abandon his every promise to the North and especially to the only family he had left (Sansa, Arya, and Bran) in order to please his temperamental, untrustworthy, but suddenly irresistible lady love.  From that point until the rest of the season, his voice softened and his eyes lit up practically every time he saw Daenerys.  He coddled her, reassured her, made love to her, and made me wonder just what manner of creature had body-snatched the King in the North - especially when episode 7 and The-Scene-That-Shall-Never-Be-Named came along.  

And I found that behavior to be even more inconsistent with Jon’s character even than outright deception.  Jon has shown a willingness to deceive others (albeit reluctantly) in the service of a greater purpose, but he’s never shown the slightest bent toward falling head over heels into the bed of a woman he told to take a hike two episodes prior.  This is the man who refused to bed a very willing prostitute because he was afraid he’d father a bastard; the same man who refused a very willing Ygritte until faced with the possibility of blowing his cover to the Wildlings; and the same man who refused a very willing Melisandre because he was still mourning the only woman he’d ever loved.  It took him quite some time even to fall in love with Ygritte, at that, and in the end he left her regardless in order to keep his Night’s Watch vows.

By season 7, Jon had become even more of a skeptic about love and about people in general than he was back in season 3, when he fell for Ygritte – and therefore, in my book, even less likely to turn on a dime and fall swooning into Daenerys’s arms.  His stint in the Night’s Watch taught him both how to betray others (Ygritte and the Wildlings) and how little he could trust even his sworn “brothers” (in the cases of the mutinies against himself and Jeor Mormont).  Therefore, it would take a lot longer than two episodes for him to go from telling a woman he clearly didn’t trust to stick her bend-the-knee demands where the sun didn’t shine (”Eastwatch”) to bedding her with wild abandon.  Even though she did agree to help him, it was in a moment of overwhelming emotion, and her past behavior had given Jon more than enough reasons to look upon that agreement with his usual healthy skepticism.  What if she went back on that agreement in a moment of anger?  What if she decided to use her dragons on a recalcitrant North that refused to follow its king’s lead in bending the knee?  No, Jon needed to ensure that Daenerys’s willingness to help him was permanent, and the most logical way for him to do that was to use her strongest possible motivation, i.e., her desire for a romantic relationship with him.  And even if, for argument’s sake, he did grow a sudden infatuation, or even affection, for Daenerys, he would not prize it above his ultimate loyalty to his family, his people, and the survival of Westeros if he had to choose between the two.  He left a woman (Ygritte) before for the sake of his “brothers,” and he’d do it again if he had to.  He needed to win Daenerys over and to ensure that she would stay on his side, but it wasn’t for love.  It was for the sake, once again, of a greater good: the survival of Westeros and the North and his family.  The Jon Snow we’ve known for six and a half seasons would die on that hill, and his sudden apparent retreat from it at the end of episode 6 was too bizarre a turnabout for me to swallow, even accounting for the season’s exceptionally bad writing.  It was the straw that broke my camel’s back and made a convert out of me.  To what extent his deceptions were planned and to what extent he flew by the seat of his pants, I’m still trying to sort out in my own mind, but I believe this one thing to be true:

Jon Snow is undercover, y’all.  It is known.

[nyangibun]

Here's a fun story.

I have this friend. He's a good friend. He looks out for me and protects me when I get harassed by dudes on nights out. But he lied to this girl that he was single and was into her as more than a friend to sleep with her when he did, in fact, have a girlfriend back home. I know the girl he slept with and I know if she had known he had a girlfriend she wouldn’t have slept with him. Of course I ripped him a new one as soon as I found out and told him he’s an asshole because that was a complete asshole move. But does that make my friend a rapist? No, it doesn’t. It absolutely does not. It makes him a really horrible dickhead. 

Why am I telling you this? 

Because of this continued discourse that Undercover Lover Jon would be essentially raping Dani. It’s wrong, so completely wrong and manipulative. It makes him an asshole, but it does not make him a rapist.  

Rape is forcing another person into a sexual act against their will by physically overpowering them, using drugs or alcohol so that they are not of sober mind to consent to anything or deceiving them of your true identity. 

Sleeping with someone because you want them to trust you and to strengthen their feelings for you is not rape. Jon is probably sexually attracted to her. No one is denying that. He is not forcing her or using drugs or alcohol to blur her judgment and ability to consent. He is not lying about his true identity so that she’d sleep with him. He’s attracted to her and she’s attracted to him, and the theory suggests that by sleeping with her he might be able to ensure her feelings for him are strong enough to override any impulses that might have her abandon her vow to fight alongside him to protect the world from the NK and the Others. That’s the basis of the theory. 

For people to compare something like that to actual rape and sexual assault is utterly demeaning to the kind of trauma that actually occurs during these horrible acts. They’re not the same thing. 

There have been countless movies, novels and shows about a woman who uses her sexuality to get what she wants and exploiting the desires and affections of men. It's constantly applauded as being a powerful feminist message about a woman embracing her sexuality in a patriarchal world. The very fact is, however, she is still manipulating someone by exploiting their sexual attraction to her, yet in none of these stories have I ever heard someone call this type of woman ‘a rapist’. Everyone tends to applaud it because the man usually is a scumbag and so, therefore ‘had it coming’ to him. 

With regards to Jon and Dani, she imprisoned him on her island and tried to force him to bend the knee. She also explicitly told him by not bending the knee House Stark and the North were in open rebellion with her, and last Jon knows, she burnt those that were in open rebellion with her. So did she have it coming? If you turned this upside down on its head and you had a woman being imprisoned by a man on his island, threatened multiple times by her, told to submit herself and her people to him or face the consequences. Would you applaud her if she used his sexual attraction to her to get what she wants? Or would you call her a rapist as well? 

By your logic of ‘rape by deception’, it shouldn’t matter, right? All those women in all those stories are rapists and not just women using their sexuality to ensure her survival. 

You can be disgusted by the Undercover Lover Theory all you want but stop calling it ‘rape by deception’ when it isn’t. Here’s a good addition to my post by Mere about the legality of it. So for god’s sake, stop labeling Jon as such. Stop trivialising what rape actually is. 

Yes, it makes Jon an asshole and maybe you don’t want pretty perfect Jon to be an asshole, but is manipulating someone any more of an asshole move than Dani burning the masters at Meereen without a fair trial? Or executing both father and son Tarly by burning? Or Jaime pushing Bran out of a window? Or Arya serving Walder Frey his own children in a pie (it was sadistic and you know it)? 

So just stop it with this rhetoric. It’s harmful and gross.

[kitten1618x]

Just something I've been thinking about since the s7 finale: that look Jon gives Daenerys when they're having sex. When they stop kissing and he stares at her. It's so strange. He's not in love. We've seen Jon snow in love and it looked nothing like that. He looked upset to me. It's kind of what sealed the deal for me on believing that Jon is finally playing dirty politics. He's manipulating Daenerys and isn't happy about it (hence the look) but he knows he has to

See Nonny, and this is why I feel strongly about what @occupyvenus calls marg!jon (i think?). lol

Because Jon isn’t a ruthless shit -he has a conscience, and I think he would feel conflicted over taking advantage of someone’s feelings for him. But I do think he’d still do it -especially with the North and humanity on the line.

I mean, we could be wrong -of course NONE of us know what’s going to unfold for sure …but considering the all-around oddness of season 7, something just ain’t passing the smell test, and people are trying to make sense of it.

It’s a long wait to season 8, Nonny! 😳 lol

[some-wintertown-whore]

I wasn't completely sold on the whole 'undercover Jon' thing UNTIL Tyrion opened his gob and spouted that 'I suppose he stares longingly (really? Does he though Tyr? Does he?!) because he's hoping for a successful military alliance' line. 'Hiding' a supposedly throwaway 'joke' in that dialogue, only for it to prophetise future events is exactly the sort of thing I could see D&D pulling.

[thelegendofclarke]

I'm not sure that the Undercover Lover Jon thing is true, even though I get why people believe it. If it isn't true tho, what is the third treason that Dany's going to suffer? I thought it was pretty much agreed that it was going to be Jon.

Hokay I know I said I wasn’t going to talk about this, but I am nothing if nothing contrary af. SO anon I am going to use your ask as a kind of like ~general layout~ of my thoughts on the potential of UCJ.  I’m going to maintain though that I would prefer not to discuss any potential consent issues for personal reasons. 

I am also gonna shout out to the other few anons as, well as @ladyanyawaynwood and @lyanna-mormont, who also sent me asks on this topic. 

SO all right folks *drum roll* It’s the new favorite fandom Disc Horse! Either you love it or you hate it! Either you want to have its babies or want to kill it with fire!… It’s THE UNDERCOVER JON THEORY!

Before I start rambling, you should all totally check out the bottom part of this really excellent post by @him-e about some of the details and possibilities of this theory, because Claudia is so much better at words and explanations and life than me. There’s also this post by @blindestspot, whose no nonsense approach I always really appreciate.

Ok, first of all: I would like to go on record once more in saying that God I really dislike the name Undercover Jon. I primarily hate it because I feel like it’s misleading, at least in terms of what I personally would consider this theory to be. I feel like “undercover” implies deliberateness and ill intent and malice aforethought that I generally don’t really think is involved here. Also, I guess I don’t really subscribe to the Undercover Lover theory at all, because I don’t think Jon’s feelings for/sexual relationship with Dany have anything to do with it (i.e. I do not think Jon purposefully and deliberately seduced Dany for the sole purpose of manipulating her, nor do I think he is merely pretending to have feelings for her for the sole purpose of personal/political gain). 

I truly don’t believe Jon is in any way maliciously gaslighting Dany as part of any Grand Scheme. Personally, I feel that would be too much at odds with the Honorable and Noble character and narrative established for Jon. But that’s not to say that I don’t think the general theory is totally with out merit. I actually think some elements of it could definitely make up a potential plot line. I have explained my take on it as more Flying By the Seat of His Pants Jon- I think “scheme” would be way too strong a word, I think “plan” would probably even be too generous. It’s probably more along the lines of “ok so this is what we are doing now.”

Somewhere along the line I feel like this whole thing turned into something VERY black and white and moralized. I also think that somewhere down the line this turned into a VERY polarized and mutually exclusive theory, which I don’t think would be the case in the event that the theory ends up being true. I have seen a lot of comparisons being made to LF and Ned Stark. It’s either that Jon is Ned Stark’s son and he would NEVER act in this type of morally dubious manner, OR that if Jon were to be acting in this morally dubious manner that he is just as bad as LF. @blindestspot summed up this polarization kind of perfectly imo:

Hyperbolically speaking, either Jon is a cruel cad or he is a faithless idiot. If you step away from the hyperbole, his pragmatism or naivety might actually make him less of a righteous cookie-cutter hero and more like a flawed human being. But it’s the internet and ideas are quickly distorted into their most hyperbolic versions of themselves. If Jon isn’t wholly good, he has got to be evil. If Jon isn’t smart, he eats crayons for breakfast.

Likewise, I disagree with the idea that Ned Stark and LF are the only two applicable points of moral comparison, that just seems awfully restrictive imo. Also, both Ned Stark and LF are dead. This implies that in order to survive the game of thrones, you have to fall somewhere in between. I guess the best way I can think of to explain it is that I kind of view this theory and it’s different variations on a sliding scale… The more deliberate and manipulative the version of the theory makes Jon out to be, the less likely I think it is to happen in that manner. 

Jon is one of the heroes of the show; and not only that, he has often been used or portrayed as the Moral Compass Character. (And example being just this season when he refused to punish Ned Umber and Albs Karstark for the sins of their fathers). The show runners have never had any story line that explicitly and intentionally places Jon in the wrong or in an extremely negative light. There has been story lines where he has acted in a morally ambiguous manner (see: Ygritte and the Wildlings), but he has never done anything purposefully malicious or outright evil or immoral. Also, there has been no indication in the narrative that he is heading toward any kind of downward spiral. I just can’t see the show going the dark!Jon or evil!Jon or morally corrupt!Jon route in the final season when he has been consistently portrayed as the Knight in Shining Armor, Savior, and Hero of the story.

I am a lawyer… So my basic approach to things like speculation is to look at the evidence. Honestly, for this theory, imo the defense for both sides have created reasonable doubt.

Arguments for UCJ

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Through the Wilding plot from s1-s3, the narrative has established that Jon is capable of deception. He is capable of having genuine feelings for someone while not being completely honest. 

Sansa told Jon he needed to be “smarter,” which he could have taken to heart. A plot like this, similar to the the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, could be part of the general theme of “I learn” and the Starks going from pawns to players.

Kit Harrington has said this about Jon Snow’s character in s7 and s8: “But this year, I think he becomes a politician… He starts manipulating people in a Jon Snow way - in a kind way, but he has a job to do.” (x) This not only confirms that Jon IS operating as apolitical actor, but could also imply that Jon has a strategic goal or purpose. However, Jon having real feelings for Dany is not necessarily at odds with him having a second agenda. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

Jon steadfastly maintained through out the season that he would not be bending the knee. He even went so far as to tell Dany “I am a king.” It could be difficult for people to see how he would make such a complete 180, and a seemingly needless and unnecessary one given that Dany agreed to fight the NK before he bent the knee.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been story lines, like the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, that were dishonest on their face. The way they were portrayed was intended to mislead the audience. So D&D are capable of using this kind of plot device.

The way I see this kind of story line going, it would also essentially be a pretty significant parallel to the Jon and the Wildlings plot, where Jon had real feelings for Ygritte but the situation was complicated by duty and circumstance. However, this would mean that it’s material D&D are familiar with.

All of the finale was full of subtext about lying and lies and honor. They laid it on so thick. Thick enough, I felt, that it could imply that Jon is hiding something or that part of him is overcompensating and/or being motivated by guilt.

Arguments Against UCJ:

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Obviously, Jon’s honor code and strong senses of morality and duty are huge parts of his character. It’s totally reasonable to think that he has no ulterior motives beyond forming an alliance to ensure Dany and her dragons will fight with the North.

I think that Jon knows The NK will probably have a dragon how (he has seen the NK raise people from the dead, and he knows from the wight hunt that the NK can also raise animals from the dead). He knows without the dragons, they do not stand a chance. So he is doing everything necessary to ensure the dragons are on their side.

Jon has been consistently portrayed as a Hero and Moral Compass type character. There would be no reason for them to do anything that had the potential to  turn the audience so vehemently against him in the final season.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been some incredibly stupid story lines (jfc that wight hunt). It’s fair to be suspicious that a story line of this manner is beyond what D&D have the tendency to produce in terms of complex details.

There are only 6 episodes left. I have a really hard time imagining how they would pull this off in 6 episodes ON TOP OF everything else that has to happen before the series ends.

In regards to the plot device of characters using seduction and emotional manipulation as a tool, D&D have consistently been typical dude bro’s insofar as it has been largely female characters who have done so (Cersei, Margaery, Shae, Osha, ect.) It might be completely beyond them to think to have a male character utilize those techniques in such a manner.

I see valid arguments being made on both sides here to constitute a generally sufficient case for it going either way. I think that anyone who would argue “yes the is 100% going to happen” OR “no there is a 0% chance this is happening” would be willfully disregarding evidence from one side or the other. Obviously it’s natural that people will find one side or the other more persuasive, everything about speculation is subjective. But I just don’t feel like it would be possible to make any definitive statements at this point. 

All the reasons I have for thinking this could be possible or impossible have nothing to do with me shipping Jon/Sansa. They actually don’t really have anything to do with Sansa herself at all in any different way than they have to do with everyone in the North that Jon’s decision affects. I know there are some people who might not believe me when I say that, but I supposed there is nothing I can do about it. But that’s the thing about speculation: it’s always subjective, there can be arguments made for both sides. While some people may say “Jon has made promises to Dany and he wouldn’t break them and betray her,” the flip side is “in making these promises to Dany, Jon has betrayed his duty and promises he made to all of his subjects as their king whom they trust.” For every argument, there is a counter argument; for every action, there is a reaction. For every person who can’t believe Jon would betray Dany, there is another person who can’t believe Jon would betray his family. For every person who believes Jon was right to bend the knee, there is another person who can’t believe he would do it. For every person who thinks Dany deserves to rule the Seven Kingdoms, there is another person who believes the North deserves their freedom and independence.

All things considered, I do feel there could be some potential conflict in regards to Jon’s intentions and motivations. I think there are various events and ambiguities in the past and present plot, as well as in Jon’s actions and in Jon and Dany’s relationship, that support said hypothesis. My best guess is that Jon definitely has some guilt about bending the knee because he either: a) knows the north will NEVER go for it, or b) was being genuine and feels guilty for having unilaterally made such a huge decision that effects so many people, including his own family, with out their input (which he should because ffs dude come on!) .The only thing that I believe Jon has been outright dishonest about is telling Dany that the Northerners would bend the knee accept her as Queen. The North has a very deep seated rhetoric against the Targaryens. Whether it’s true or not is essentially a moot point, it’s just something that is deeply embedded in their history. In 7x02 they went out of their way to make a ~big deal~ about how “Targaryens can’t be trusted.” The North also has a historic distrust and disdain for Southern rule and the Iron Throne, going all the way back to Torrhen Stark, the king who knelt. I don’t think there is any way that Jon could reasonably believe that Dany won’t be met with opposition from the North… All the rest of it, including Jon’s feelings towards Dany, kind of falls into a gray area of words vs. actions vs. intent vs. motivations. Which makes sense, because this would be a morally gray plot; and it wouldn’t be the first time one of those was featured on Game of Thrones. 

I suspect that, like with Operation Wildling, Jon has no real escape plan or exit strategy here; I honestly don’t think that he has thought about it that much (also implying that any deliberate, premeditated manipulation or ill intent on his part would be minimal or non existent). Honestly, I think that Jon believes he is not going to survive to see the extended repercussions of and reactions to his bending the knee. I think that Jon truly believes he is going to die fighting the NK. He already showed that he was willing to die when he told Dany to leave him behind in 7x06. Like the rest of us, his he is probably wondering how in the ever loving fuck his ass has somehow managed to survive this long. (Honestly being like, “I’ll bend/pretend to bend the knee and then just die so I don’t have to face Sansa” would ABSOLUTELY be a Jon Snow thing to do.) I think Jon made what he saw as the best decision in the present, and isn’t concerned about the future or the fallout. Which, if true, could lead to a couple possible conflicts for next season:

Possibility 1- Jon dies in the BftD and Dany lives, leaving Dany to face the North and Cersei on her own.

Possibility 2- Dany dies in the BftD and Jon lives, leaving him to deal with the fallout in the North and Cersei alone.

Possibility 3- Both Jon and Dany survive the BftD and the North makes it clear that they will not accept his as queen, leaving Jon to decide who’s side he will be on. His decision then would obviously be complicated by his feelings for Dany and his loyalty to his family ect. ect.

Possibility 4- The White Walkers win and everyone dies so it doesn’t even matter!

(*Disclaimer: Obviously this list is just me speculating and is in no way comprehensive or exhaustive.)

And like Anon said, if Jon is going to be the third reason that Dany suffers, then Possible Conflict #’s 1 and 3 could definitely play into that. In #1 Dany would not only be dealing with Jon’s death, but also with the knowledge that he was dishonest to her. And in #3 if Jon ends up siding with the Starks in a potential conflict, that could possibly be a major betrayal.

I also think subjectivity comes into play big time here with regards to which parts of the story people prefer or find more compelling or are more interested in. Game of Thrones has SO MUCH going on and there are so many different lenses through which people can view it. Who are the most important characters? What is the most important plot? Who is The Hero™? Who is The Villain™? What is the ideal endgame? I would bet you pretty much anything no two people would answer all those questions the exact same way. We as an audience have been waiting 6 seasons for BOTH the Stark Restoration/Northern Independence AND the Dany Getting to Westeros plots to play out. I’ve kind of talked about it a little bit before, but for me personally (and I think for others as well), it was extremely narratively frustrating to finally get the narrative pay out from the Stark story line, only to have it be given up and taken away such a short time later. 

I also think that if Jon’s storyline is 100% completely honest, straight forward, and genuine as it stands, then like 90% of the major, climactic events of his arc will seem to have been pointless and he will have learned nothing from them. It would also seem that Jon bending the knee and unilaterally making such a huge decision for such a large number of people so easily would go against a lot of what he has supposedly learned. I’m not even saying that it was the wrong decision or that he didn’t have the authority to make it or even that it would be completely ooc. However, such a seemingly single minded action would show an alarming and annoying (imo) lack of character development… Which, again, is entirely possible. This is D&D after all.

In sum, I honestly don’t have that strong of a stance on this tbh. I guess mine is kind of like a Moderate View on the theory or like, “Undercover Jon Light.” I think some variation of it could definitely be possible and would be an interesting potential plot so I won’t rule it out completely. But I also won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen.

[disneyprincessbuffyannesummers]

does anyone remember finnick from the hunger games and how he was a sex worker after he won the hunger games and only payment he would ask for was with secrets?

i think Jon is doing that with d#ny.

[medschoolash]

“Talisa is a Lannister spy”

Got fandom: wow what If she is! I totally bet she is!

“Tyrion is a secret targ from Aerys raping Joana”

Got fandom: holy shit what if!?

“Jamie is actually the prince that was promised”

Got fandom: I’m listening tell me more….

“Jamie and Ceresi are targaryen twins”

Got fandom: hmmm might be possible Idk

“Bran time travelled and gave young hodor a seizure so that he could becomes present hodor and fulfill his destiny”’

Got fandom: this totally makes sense

“Bran Stark is the night king sent to the future to kill himself so he never becomes the night king”

Got fandom: Mind Blown!

“Jon is desperate to save the north and is willing to fuck Dany to do it”

Got fandom: now hold up one minute y'all taking this theory Shit just a little too fucking far