#undercover jon theory

[sophiasrant]

do you have any good damijon fic recs?

BEST ASK EVER. GIVE ME A MOMENT TO AQUIRE.

1. Navigating life by nxghtwxng

College AU that will break your heart and mend it over and over again. My favorite damijon fic EVER. I’m insane over it. If you do one thing tonight, start this series.

2. got your finger on the trigger (but your trigger finger’s mine) by eyes_to_the_sky

EVIL JON AU MY BELOVED. A small one shot that had me in a chokehold for WEEKS.

3. Bloodstains on Fresh Oranges by artobsessed_writes

VAMPIRE DAMIAN AU SHHDJEHFJE. This fic had me gnawing at my walls. This fic is SO good about their dynamic and I WHDHDJJDJE. It is the first part of a series!! Can never recommend it enough.

4. Mirror Mirror by First_Mate

In another universe, Damian is murdered. Jon can’t handle it, so decides to travel to another universe to be with their Damian. Only, that universe’s Jon might just take issue with that. I can’t do it justice by summarizing it. IT’S SO GOOD.

5. It Wouldn’t Be Make Believe (If You Believed In Me) by poisonivory

College AU!!! The boys have to go undercover together to party. What could possibly go wrong (or right)?

6. I can’t make you love me by badwriterrr

Unrequited love all around but it all ends up ok. If you don’t like unrequited love angst, I probably wouldn’t read this one but I LOVE it.

7. Those Who Wait by InsaneTrollLogic

I have never been a reverse robins girlie. It has never been my thing. This however is the exception. This fic makes me want to sob. I’m so normal about it.

8. Propinquity theory by butterflyapocalypse

Another college AU. Can you tell I like them yet?

9. Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow by poisonivory

They’re totally platonic friends with benefits! Absolutely nothing more! No one caught feelings! (You’ll never guess what happened)

10. Trust Fall by Ididloveyou_once

This one is a timkon fic with background damijon but it’s so good and changed my brain chemistry so im tacking it on anyway. You can’t stop me.

If you ever need any more fics, you know where to find me. OR if you wanna rec ME fics, I am to fics like a crow is to shiny objects.

(Edit: they are still superheroes in all of the college AUs if I remember correctly)

[brokehorrorfan]

Rope, The Man Who Knew Too Much, Torn Curtain, Topaz, and Frenzy will be released on 4K Ultra HD (with Blu-ray and Digital) on October 31 via Universal. They’ll be available both individually and in The Alfred Hitchcock Classics Collection: Volume 3 box set.

Rope is a 1948 thriller written by Arthur Laurents, based on the 1929 play by Patrick Hamilton. James Stewart, John Dall, and Farley Granger star.

The Man Who Knew Too Much is a 1956 thriller written by John Michael Hayes. James Stewart and Doris Day star.

Torn Curtain is a 1966 spy thriller written by Brian Moore. Paul Newman and Julie Andrews star.

Topaz is a 1969 spy thriller written by Samuel A. Taylor, based on the 1967 novel by Leon Uris. Frederick Stafford, Dany Robin, and John Forsythe star.

Frenzy is a 1972 thriller written by Anthony Shaffer, based on a 1966 novel by Arthur La Bern. Jon Finch, Alec McCowen, and Barry Foster star.

The films have each been restored in 4K and presented with HDR. Special features are listed below, where you can also see the artwork for the standalone releases.

Rope special features:

Rope Unleashed

Production photographs

Theatrical trailer

Two friends (Farley Granger and John Dall) strangle a classmate for intellectual thrills and then proceed to throw a party for the victim's family and friends—with the body stuffed inside the trunk they use for a buffet table. As the killers turn the conversation to committing the "perfect murder," their former teacher (James Stewart) becomes increasingly suspicious that his students have turned his intellectual theories into brutal reality.

The Man Who Knew Too Much special features:

The Making of The Man Who Knew Too Much

Saving The Man Who Knew Too Much

Production photographs

Theatrical trailer

Re-release trailer

Original multi-directional audio

While vacationing in Morocco, Ben and Jo McKenna (James Stewart and Doris Day) are suddenly immersed in a dangerous situation after a French spy dies in Ben's arms. Discovering that their son has been kidnapped and taken to England, the McKennas are caught up in a nightmare of espionage, assassinations and terror. Soon, all of their lives hang in the balance as they draw closer to the truth that leads to a chilling climax in London's famous Royal Albert Hall.

Torn Curtain special features:

Torn Curtain Rising

Scenes scored by Bernard Herrmann

Production photographs

Theatrical trailer

World-famous scientist Michael Armstrong (Paul Newman) and his fiancée/assistant, Sarah Sherman (Julie Andrews), travel to Copenhagen for a physics conference. When Sarah mistakenly intercepts a message meant for Armstrong, she believes that he is secretly defecting to East Germany. As Armstrong goes undercover to learn top-secret information, the couple find themselves running for their lives from the enemy agents.

Topaz special features:

Topaz Appreciation by film critic Leonard Maltin

Alternate endings

Storyboards: The Mendozas

Production photographs

Theatrical trailer

Responding to rumors of Russian missiles and a NATO spy called Topaz, an American CIA agent (John Forsythe) hires French operative Devereaux (Frederick Stafford) to investigate in Cuba. In Havana, Devereaux's investigation becomes dangerous, leaving behind a wake of shaken governments, murder, betrayal and suicide.

Frenzy special features:

The Story of Frenzy

Production photographs

Theatrical trailer

A serial criminal known as the "Necktie Murderer" has the police on red alert and the trail is leading to an innocent man who must now elude the law and prove his innocence by finding the real murderer.

Pre-order The Alfred Hitchcock Classics Collection: Volume 3.

[allovesthings]

Your recent poll regarding whether any of the Lannisters would recognize Arya in the present reminded me of how excited I am for a potential meeting between Tyrion and Arya. I have no proof whatsoever that this meeting will even occur but I don't think it's entirely outside of the realm of possibility. I'd love to hear what you think their initial interaction would be like and how they would perceive each other. Love all of your ASOIAF takes!

Funny story, the initial poll was going to be about Tyrion specifically so you have the right timing !

I think they are going to interact at some point. They are main characters who will probably be in the battle for the dawn together.

I have three theories, two of them depends on where Arya is going to go after the faceless men and one really depends on the timing.

The first one is if Arya decides to go back to Westeros and is in the Riverlands already when Dany arrives. In that case, they'll meet when Dany gets here and if we assumes Arya, with the help of the brotherhood gets either Riverrun or Harrenhal, they would be in a position to be allies in the war which would mean negociations and political talks and it would means Arya took her identity back and is Arya Stark, Lady of Winterfell.

Tyrion can reacts in several ways, either she reminds him of Jon (and the fact that she looks like him would probably help) and I think he could like her as a person or she reminds him of her mother and that's not going to go great, he might also be bitter because he was framed for Joffrey's murder and Sansa was in the middle of that.

Arya is more complicated. Would she hate him for being a Lannister ? i don't know because he has been running from them and he is accused of killing Joffrey which might help her be a little more nice to him. There is also the Jon of it all, if Tyrion mentions he is Jon's friend, he might get her immediate trust, just for that.

The second theory is if Dany get to Braavos before she leave the faceless men, and then the question is less; how would they get along and more,would he recognize her ?

And the answer is no, if she is not using her own face. if she is; I don't know.

We have several factors to take into account: He is friend with Jon and could see the ressemblance between them and he stayed in Winterfell for months. But would that be enough to recognize her ? I don't know.

If it is, then he is the probably the person who will tell Dany who Arya is (him and Barristan are the only one who somewhat would know her face) which might not endear her to him, considering he would be a snitch if he did.

And if she saw him, would her initial reaction be anger for being a Lannister ? for marrying Sansa ? he is never made the list, she has no personal grudge against him.

The third theory is if Arya makes the choice to go east to meet Dany instead of Westeros. If she is going as Arya Stark, then it's the same questions as theory 1) how would they get along and if she goes undercover, it's theory 2), would he recognize her ?

Thanks for the asks and sorry for the rant, It turns out, I have a lot to say about Tyrion and Arya.

[thepunkmuppet]

I’ve already posted about my big theories for nerdy prudes, but I just wanted to get my personal hopes and mini predictions down in a neat little list before I finally see the digital ticket on Tuesday! I will reblog this with a completed checklist once I’ve seen it (obviously with spoilers tagged) CANT WAIT!!

so, in no particular order:

paul and emma cameo. I think paul is confirmed based on this one post I saw but the photo was very blurry so it could be someone else… still both lauren and jon are in the show, they had a cameo in black friday - I just think they deserve to be together and happy in every universe until they inevitably die or break up horribly and I would squee so hard if they really showed up

ted cameo where he immediately dies. because come on. you can’t not do it you just can’t

stephski kiss. I just think they’re neat

HOLLODUKE APPEARANCE. HOLLODUKE APPEARANCE HOLLODUKE APPEARANCE HOLLODUKE APPEARANCE HOLLODUKE APPEARANCE HOLLOD

the book they get the ritual from is the black book which is how miss holloway (as the student counsellor miss holiday) ties in.

grace gets a solo song and also a lethal weapon.

grace canonically has a crush on steph. idk I’m very happy with the “we’re besties” “I hate you and want you dead” dynamic but also “I’m madly in love with you and obsessed with you and also a repressed christian teenager” “I hate you and want you dead and also have a boyfriend” has potential

bill and alice cameo. corey and mariah have played father and daughter twice and I think they could get some quality jokes out of that even if just for one scene

the apocalypse happens and everyone dies just like in the other two musicals - otherwise I think it would pretty much just feel like a nightmare time episode scaled up to 10 which doesn’t sound bad, just not what fans are looking for in a full fledged hatchetfield musical

detective shapiro will be an undercover peip agent or at least connected to them in some way

it’s set in the same universe as abstinence camp (therefore ted is alive, grace steph and pete have established dynamics with each other, they know about weird shit in hatchetfield, etc)

my theories end up being correct. or at least blinky is the major villain and the murderer is being controlled by him and “larry” is an important character

HERE IS HOW GENERAL MACNAMARA CAN STILL WIN-

[lemonhemlock]

Omg what do you think of the theory that young griff is not faegon but the real aegon? (I think hills alive made a vid on it)

This question has been sitting in my inbox for a long time, but I've been swamped, sorry. 😅

You know, I really used to think for the longest time that fAegon was fake, because Tyrion thinks so. But Tyrion is so full of shit a lot of the time and his POV is really unreliable. If I ever get enough time on my hands, I'd like to re-read the series, because the shit he does while serving as Hand of the King is beyond the pale, but you fall for his version of the events SO easily.

Anyway, the arguments that kind of sway me to the other side are also relayed by Hill's Alive: 1. why would Varys lie to Kevan, a dying man? and 2. it would be narratively and thematically more satisfying for Dany and/or Jon to have to face off the REAL heir to the Iron Throne.

That being said, I'm not a Martell scholar, so I haven't really scrutinized the intricacies of the Dorne plot. I have so many questions, really. If fAegon is real, then why were Doran and/or Oberyn so chill with not raising him somehow undercover in Dorne? Why wasn't Princess Rhaenys saved alongside him? Why does Doran seem to push for a Targaryen restoration with his (albeit declarative) support of Viserys and Daenerys? Why would the Golden Company support him if he's not a Blackfyre? Why would Illyrio be so interested in fAegon if he's not his "secret son"? (I do find that theory quasi-ridiculous, though) There's also that stuff about "the mummer's dragon" in Dany's prophecy.

Ultimately, since he was introduced so late in the narrative, I don't think that fAegon, real or not, will have a very long reign, if he ever succeeds in his quest. It makes sense for him to function within the text as a foil to Daenerys. In that vein, I suppose his paternity doesn't really matter.

I also don't believe anyone with Targaryen blood will get to sit the throne, if there is even to be a throne at the end of the series.

[jonsa101]

Is Jon Snow Weirdly Following in Robb’s Footsteps or is He Playing the Game?

One thing I find strange about Season 7 and part of Season 6 is that Jon seems to be following in Robb’s footsteps:

Robb is proclaimed King in the North

Jon is proclaimed King in the North

Robb ignores Catelyn’s wise council

Jon ignores Sansa’s wise council(season 6)

Robb falls in love with a foreigner (Talisa)

Jon “falls in love” with a foreigner(Dany)

They’re probably many more comparisons I can make but these are just some of the of the most apparent. Jon knows how the North feels about Robb’s relationship with Talisa. He also knows about the North’s stubborn nature and how they feel about “outsiders.”

What’s even stranger is that before Jon leaves for Dragonstone, we get a strong warning from Sansa telling Jon to be smarter than Ned and Robb. Yet in season 7, it seems like Jon has thrown caution to the wind and has fallen “madly in love” with Daenerys literally walking in his brothers footsteps regardless of the consequences.

My question is why is the show making such an obvious comparison/parallel between Jon and Robb and why are they putting so much emphasis on Robb’s past actions/mistakes?

I have two ideas on this:

1. They are either showing us that Jon hasn’t learned from his mistakes and his families mistakes and that he has truly fallen for Daenerys. Which will lead to his doom just like his brother.

Or

2. They are showing us Jon apparently falling in love with Daenerys when in actuality he is playing the game and trying to secure an alliance.

Robb’s ultimate demise was believing that everything will turn out fine if he married Talisa. He believed that the Frey’s would completely forgive him for breaking an oath without any consequences. But that’s not how the game works and that’s not Game of Thrones. Robb learned the hard way.

Jon’s ultimate demise was believing that Night’s Watch will see the greater good by creating an alliance with the Wildlings. Their ultimate enemy was the White Walkers and they needed to band together to defeat them. They didn’t see it that way and Jon was murdered. Jon learned the hard way.

I honestly don’t think that Jon would willingly follow his brothers footsteps (falling in love with Dany/bending the knee), knowing how the North feels about outsiders, Targaryens, and Robb’s past and think it would have a positive outcome. Jon and Dany are doomed whichever way you look at it.

Some people might believe that it’s not going to matter that Jon and Dany are together or that he bent the knee to Dany because the White Walkers are coming but I think that just really naive thinking.

Politics, alliances and the political game will always rule in Game of Thrones. R+L=J hasn’t been built up from season 1 for everyone to get along, sing kumbaya, and defeat their common enemy. The last episode of season 7 was proof of enough. Everyone has always fought for their own agendas and I believe Jon’s agenda I solely for the love of his family and his home.

Once Jon and Dany arrive there is going to be some serious tension. As soon R+L=J is revealed(which will probably be in the first or second episode) political chaos will ensue. The North is not going to jump for joy because Dany brought her dragons to “save them” from the White Walkers and Dany isn’t gonna roll over for Jon and be like “yay babe, I’m so happy you’re the heir to the Iron Throne.” 🙄

I say all that to say that I believe that Jon is being smarter than Robb. That he isn’t willingly making choices that would upset his people and he’s playing the game. I actually don’t think that he hates or is repulsed by Dany. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s really physically attracted to Dany honestly. I mean let’s face it y’all she is STUNNING and it would make sense on why they ended up sleeping together.

But does that mean that Jon loves her? No I don’t think so not by a long shot. Does being attracted to Daenerys make it easier for him to secure an alliance. Yep and that idea is way more plausible.

[amymel86]

The Hidden Wolf Symbolism?

Anyone want to hear some total reaching from an ‘undercover Jon’ believer? Yeah? Ok - strap in...(if you don’t believe in the theory, that’s fine, I’m not trying to convince anyone with this - just lemme have my fun alright?! - also I hate the term ‘undercover Jon’)....fyi - this is tagged ‘Jonsa’ purely because a lot of my Jonsa fam are keen on the ‘undercover Jon’ theory - so feel free to scroll right on if that doesn’t interest you.

I was recently reminded of the above GOT S7 promo (above) and I remember when I first saw it that I noticed that just as the stone dragon is crumbling, it resembles a wolf.

You can’t tell me that that didn’t resemble a direwolf! Look at the ear!

I didn’t ponder too much about it at the time - I just thought it was a clever little representation of Jon himself. But, if that were the case, then it should have been a wolf crumbling with a hidden dragon, right?

So the dragon is reaching up to be on top, and just as it starts fracturing and breaking into shards of stone - it looks like a wolf to me. Almost as if the concealed wolf was, in part, the cause for the dragon’s destruction (and I obviously don’t need to spell out the symbolism of that and how it lends itself to the undercover Jon theory.)

It could just represent Jon and D as a union or alliance but the fact that everything shatters and is broken doesn’t foretell a happy connection between the two characters to me.

It could represent Lyanna and Rhaegar - but then why is the wolf hidden? Why couldn’t they have the stone dragon and wolf twisting around each other like the other sigils? 

It could be the ‘hidden wolf’ within the Targ lineage, about to be revealed. But lets take a look at some of the other actions of the stone sigils in this promo...

You’ve got:

A stag coming up against a dragon whilst Robert says "...kill every Targaryen I get my hands on." - (Robert’s treasonous actions with his rebellion against the crown and trying to wipe out the last Targaryens)

A lion going for the throat of a stag as Cersei says "Everyone who isn't us, is an enemy." - (Cersei betraying her husband with her Lancel/boar hunt plan)

A wolf comes into shot when Joffrey says "Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!" - (the downfall of Ned when he trusted in the wrong people and was killed for it)

Kraken tentacles wrap around the wolf as Balon says "We are ironborn, we take what is ours." - (representing Theon’s betrayal against Robb and the rest of the Starks)

A lion snarls at the wolf as it’s being overwhelmed by the kraken whilst Roose says "The Lannisters send their regards." and Catelyn screams - (obviously the betrayal surrounding the Red Wedding)

A rose vine wraps around a lion’s paw as you hear Olenna’s voice saying  "You don't think I'd let you marry that beast, do you?" - (Olenna’s treasonous plot to poison Joffrey at his wedding) 

A golden rose goes up in green flame as Qyburn says "I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister… Protector of the Seven Kingdoms." -(Cersei’s destruction of House Tyrell when she used her trial to her advantage as a ploy to wipe out her enemies)

And then we get to the dragon/wolf/everything crumbling bit. So I guess I sense a theme with all these incident representations  - Firstly, they are in chronological order, and secondly, they seem to depict some form or other of betrayal. They could have used a number of other happenings from the show, but they didn’t, so I deduce that it’s not totally mad to say that the ‘hidden wolf’ could represent Jon betraying D.

As I said, I’m not trying to convince anyone of the theory, but as I’m enjoying all the little metas and things that others are picking up from the show and books, I thought I’d share something that I noticed.

Anyway, I just wanted to share!

[sxpiosexualx]

Jon Snow knows some things.

I’m on a re-read of A Game of Thrones and I noticed that one of the first things we’re told about Jon is that he’s observant.

“A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.” - Jon I, A Game of Thrones.

As @sneakystarks pointed out, he picks things up about people quite easily. He decides his opinions on them without needing much:

“Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks,” - Jon upon seeing Robert Baratheon.

“Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool,” - upon seeing Myrcella.

“Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.” - upon seeing Joffrey.

 “Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.” - upon seeing Jaime Lannister.

I’m aware the show makes a point to downplay some of Jon’s abilities especially when it comes to being more political. This maybe even to prop up Jonsa as a pairing since Jon takes up the role of the military man on the show, with Sansa being the more politically aware character - the Vale plot would’ve shown her growth but alas, we never truly saw her train - but it’s book canon that he notices things, and he has a skill of picking them up quickly. 

There’s plenty more evidence in Jon I, A Storm of Swords.

“Mance Rayder’s outriders closed in as they emerged. Jon took their measure with a glance: eight riders, men and women both, clad in fur and boiled leather...”

“Both the white-bearded man and the bald one were warriors, that was plain to Jon at a glance.”

I chose this chapter because often when debunking the possibility of the Undercover Lover theory(or political Jon theory), people ignore how Jon managed to fool the Wildlings into believing he was for them. The reality is, he knows how to choose his words carefully, he knows how to sell himself:

“Jon took another swallow of mead. There is only one tale he might believe.”

He says this before he asks Mance if he saw where they had sat him during the feast with King Robert at Winterfell, in contrast to where his other half-siblings were sat.

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” he leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

He knows he has to sell Mance a story that would make him buy Jon’s support, and that’s exactly what he does.

Now, for much of season 7 once Jon meets with D*enerys, it almost feels as if we get shut out from his thought process. Some people have speculated that in the books, at least during his time with D*enerys, we’re likely to not be given his POV chapters as well. But as pointed out by @thelawyerthatwaspromised in their data analysis of diction and the amount of dialogue Jon has, it’s not that Jon is a silent person, he speaks just as much as anybody, he just does significantly less speaking when around D*enerys. Almost as if he’s wary of his words, and is trying to figure her out.

The only time we see Jon speak freely without trying to keep up with seeming courteous is when he asks Missandei about her relationship with D*enerys, in terms of whether or not she’d let her go back to Naath if she wanted. And what does he say to her?

“You believe that?”

It shows that despite what he’s heard about D*enerys, he still questions how reliable of a source Missandei is. And truly, once you think about it, does she really have a choice? I want to believe D*enerys would allow her, and Grey Worm, and her other unsullied/dothraki army to leave if they want to but part of me doubts it just as much. We’ve seen how absolute loyalty is something D*enerys expects from her followers, Varys is threatened to be burned alive if he ever so much as thinks about the good of the realm being something D*enerys can no longer offer, and Tyrion’s loyalty has constantly been questioned this season as well. It is an occurring theme. In fact at this point, she no longer cares if the people want to follow her, they only have one choice: bend the knee or die. Way to go you feminist icon facist.

So the question here is, what is the new and better world D*enerys T*rgaryen wants to build, and can she achieve that? I stumbled across a quote @shinynewrevulsions shared yesterday, by GRRM:

“Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only D*enerys T*rgaryen has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.” -  George R. R. Martin, 2011 Vulture magazine interview, quoted in Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Moreover, the real question is, what little has Jon seen of her, and does he truly believe that she deserves the throne?

He sees her unwillingness to put aside her quest for the throne and help save the North(who will be attacked by the real threat first) in the cave scene, because for some reason, it doesn’t matter if the North is under attack, they aren’t worth saving unless they’re her people. 

He witnessed her little temper tantrum on the beach, humiliating Tyrion and questioning his loyalty in front of her people. Jon and Sansa may disagree from time to time but at least Jon has the sense to talk to her afterwards in private.

She comes back after ambushing an army with her nuclear weapons, telling him she has less enemies now, to which even she notices, “you're not sure how you feel about that.”

And even after seeing the threat, as @nutellaninja0001 pointed out, she still insists on that truce with Cersei, examine 7x06 where she says she doesn’t regret the trip beyond the wall:

now contrast that with 7x07 when she realises Cersei wasn’t willing to call a truce:

In the span of 7x06 to 7x07 we’re presented and reminded that D*enerys will always put the throne first before the lives of other people. Her saviour act where she swoops in in white(the only time she isn’t wearing black and red - embracing more of her Targaryen roots), like the angelic messiah the show wants us to see her as, would not have happened if she wasn’t already smitten with Jon.

She may have had a good heart once before, but Viserys did too, until his ambitions got the better of him. And who do we know is beginning to dress like Viserys? D*enerys. 

I hold the opinion that the ASOIAF series sheds light on the corruption that befalls characters who strive for power. We see it happen with Viserys, and again with Stannis. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So, no, I don’t favour the notion that Jon falls into bed with her because of her good heart, because nothing from what we’ve seen unfold on screen truly supports that. The number one criticism was the lack of chemistry, and while that is subjective, the show has an obligation to make sure we as an audience, get to see this relationship build up to b*atbang. That means shared smiles, maybe some teasing and banter, not other characters butting in to say “hey I saw you look at her tits haha” or “pshh he looks at you like all the time girl he’s so into you!” The fact remains, the majority of us don’t feel as if it was deserved.

What I do see, is Jon beginning to play the game. He has to. He’s this far into the story, it’s time. I’ve seen so many people get disgusted at this idea of Jon manipulating D*nerys into fully committing to the cause. But can you blame him? She tells him: 

“I can’t forget what I saw North of the wall, and I can’t pretend Cersei wont take back half the country the moment I march North.”

And I think some part of him has been trying to manipulate convince her for a while. Take a look at the way Jon tries to get her attention, as pointed out by @tiny-little-bird​:

it parallels the way Sansa gets his attention:

Jon knows how receptive he is when Sansa pulls the good ole arm grab:

and he pulls the same move on D*enerys:

grabbing her arm, guiding her to what he wants her to see, to convince her to see where he’s coming from - much like what Sansa does with Jon(both instances, were to get him to listen to her). Jon is learning.

I don’t doubt that Jon is still honourable, I keep seeing Jon Snow/J*nerys stans argue he would never do this and to that, all I have to say is:

“You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” - Jon II, A Dance With Dragons.

You need to fully grasp what his motives are from every angle to try to understand why he does what he does. Jon knows the real threat is the Night King, but he’s also seen what D*enerys’ weapons of mass destruction dragons can do. She burns her enemies, that much is clear to Jon. 

So what motivates him? Who does he fight for? The living, yes, but what else? What elicits a response from him more primal than others? 

up to this point, it’s been Sansa. Whether or not you ship Jonsa or see them as merely platonic half-siblings, there is no denying that one of Jon’s top priorities is protecting Sansa - the only family he has left.

And the stakes are raised, when he learns that Bran and Arya are back at Winterfell. He has even more to fight for, even more people to protect. And what does he say?

“I thought Arya was dead. I thought Bran was dead.”

Did you, Jon? Because I thought Sansa convinced you to fight to reclaim Winterfell because it was their homes too, wherever they are. Continuity error or not, this was another chance for Jon to open up to D*enerys, much like she has been doing. But he doesn’t. He never opens up to her, not of uncle Benjen, not of the other brothers he’s lost. Why?

Whether or not you believe in the theory that Jon’s been manipulating her, killing the boy Jon Snow and letting the man be born is expected of his character. It almost becomes his own mantra whenever he’s faced with a difficult decision. He needs her to commit to his cause, because it’s the only threat that truly matters and D*enerys comes off as selfish for not committing herself to it completely already after witnessing the Night King herself. He’s tried everything else, taking advantage of her feelings for him to ensure his people live is something that’s necessary at this point. And guess what?

Lastly, I leave you with a quote GRRM said about death:

“All that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever."”

Jon’s death has come and pass in the show, don’t expect him to be the same.

[aegon-schmaegon]

I much prefer this new term for the ‘Undercover Jon Theory’ - Political Jon Theory. I think I prefer it because I’ve seen a few posts assuming that those that believe in the theory think that Jon left WF with a ready-made plan to seduce D (perhaps some people do - but I don’t). I think his actions have been a lot more reactive rather than proactive.

My speculation -

Jon decided that he would bend the knee during the dumb wight hunt - he was already prepared to do this when D offered help without it. I think that going into the wight hunt, he knew two things:

Cersei may not agree to a truce.

If Cersei did agree to a truce, she can’t be trusted anyway.

So what could he do but appeal to D’s ‘good heart’ and make his people hers? She’d choose to protect her people from the worst threat mankind has seen in centuries over a throne, right?

Jon also knew two other things:

There are now three trueborn Stark children at WF

The Northern Lords will be pissed - there’s a high chance of them denouncing him for one of his half-siblings (cousins).

- so he is possibly ‘giving her something by giving her nothing at all’

So, even if the above happens, Jon, personally has presented himself as any other of her loyal followers - and proved so in the Dragonpit.

I don’t believe that he plans on betraying her. I just don’t think that he loves her.

Apparently, there is a deleted scene where D asks him to ‘speak’ with her in her cabin - if so, then this would have made it more evident that him sleeping with her was more of a reactive ‘just give her what she wants’ action on his part. And it’s clear from his reaction to her “I can’t forget that Cersei will take back my lands once I march North” comment that he realised just bending the knee is not enough for her. He needed to do more, so he gave her what she wanted. It was a political move.

I also think that he’s prepared to marry her - if that’s what she wants. Maybe he thinks that he could grow to love her? But as for being in love as of what the show has presented in s7? No.

[empressofsloth]

Why did Cersei have to invite Sansa to the Dragonpit Meeting? 

Assuming Jon/Davi didn’t ask ask Cersei to because they were busy.

This means that Jon didn’t invite Sansa to the meeting. But... why tho? Because he didn't want Sansa to have to see him sucking up to Davi, even if they discussed it beforehand. 

[thelegendofclarke]

I'm not sure that the Undercover Lover Jon thing is true, even though I get why people believe it. If it isn't true tho, what is the third treason that Dany's going to suffer? I thought it was pretty much agreed that it was going to be Jon.

Hokay I know I said I wasn’t going to talk about this, but I am nothing if nothing contrary af. SO anon I am going to use your ask as a kind of like ~general layout~ of my thoughts on the potential of UCJ.  I’m going to maintain though that I would prefer not to discuss any potential consent issues for personal reasons. 

I am also gonna shout out to the other few anons as, well as @ladyanyawaynwood and @lyanna-mormont, who also sent me asks on this topic. 

SO all right folks *drum roll* It’s the new favorite fandom Disc Horse! Either you love it or you hate it! Either you want to have its babies or want to kill it with fire!… It’s THE UNDERCOVER JON THEORY!

Before I start rambling, you should all totally check out the bottom part of this really excellent post by @him-e about some of the details and possibilities of this theory, because Claudia is so much better at words and explanations and life than me. There’s also this post by @blindestspot, whose no nonsense approach I always really appreciate.

Ok, first of all: I would like to go on record once more in saying that God I really dislike the name Undercover Jon. I primarily hate it because I feel like it’s misleading, at least in terms of what I personally would consider this theory to be. I feel like “undercover” implies deliberateness and ill intent and malice aforethought that I generally don’t really think is involved here. Also, I guess I don’t really subscribe to the Undercover Lover theory at all, because I don’t think Jon’s feelings for/sexual relationship with Dany have anything to do with it (i.e. I do not think Jon purposefully and deliberately seduced Dany for the sole purpose of manipulating her, nor do I think he is merely pretending to have feelings for her for the sole purpose of personal/political gain). 

I truly don’t believe Jon is in any way maliciously gaslighting Dany as part of any Grand Scheme. Personally, I feel that would be too much at odds with the Honorable and Noble character and narrative established for Jon. But that’s not to say that I don’t think the general theory is totally with out merit. I actually think some elements of it could definitely make up a potential plot line. I have explained my take on it as more Flying By the Seat of His Pants Jon- I think “scheme” would be way too strong a word, I think “plan” would probably even be too generous. It’s probably more along the lines of “ok so this is what we are doing now.”

Somewhere along the line I feel like this whole thing turned into something VERY black and white and moralized. I also think that somewhere down the line this turned into a VERY polarized and mutually exclusive theory, which I don’t think would be the case in the event that the theory ends up being true. I have seen a lot of comparisons being made to LF and Ned Stark. It’s either that Jon is Ned Stark’s son and he would NEVER act in this type of morally dubious manner, OR that if Jon were to be acting in this morally dubious manner that he is just as bad as LF. @blindestspot summed up this polarization kind of perfectly imo:

Hyperbolically speaking, either Jon is a cruel cad or he is a faithless idiot. If you step away from the hyperbole, his pragmatism or naivety might actually make him less of a righteous cookie-cutter hero and more like a flawed human being. But it’s the internet and ideas are quickly distorted into their most hyperbolic versions of themselves. If Jon isn’t wholly good, he has got to be evil. If Jon isn’t smart, he eats crayons for breakfast.

Likewise, I disagree with the idea that Ned Stark and LF are the only two applicable points of moral comparison, that just seems awfully restrictive imo. Also, both Ned Stark and LF are dead. This implies that in order to survive the game of thrones, you have to fall somewhere in between. I guess the best way I can think of to explain it is that I kind of view this theory and it’s different variations on a sliding scale… The more deliberate and manipulative the version of the theory makes Jon out to be, the less likely I think it is to happen in that manner. 

Jon is one of the heroes of the show; and not only that, he has often been used or portrayed as the Moral Compass Character. (And example being just this season when he refused to punish Ned Umber and Albs Karstark for the sins of their fathers). The show runners have never had any story line that explicitly and intentionally places Jon in the wrong or in an extremely negative light. There has been story lines where he has acted in a morally ambiguous manner (see: Ygritte and the Wildlings), but he has never done anything purposefully malicious or outright evil or immoral. Also, there has been no indication in the narrative that he is heading toward any kind of downward spiral. I just can’t see the show going the dark!Jon or evil!Jon or morally corrupt!Jon route in the final season when he has been consistently portrayed as the Knight in Shining Armor, Savior, and Hero of the story.

I am a lawyer… So my basic approach to things like speculation is to look at the evidence. Honestly, for this theory, imo the defense for both sides have created reasonable doubt.

Arguments for UCJ

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Through the Wilding plot from s1-s3, the narrative has established that Jon is capable of deception. He is capable of having genuine feelings for someone while not being completely honest. 

Sansa told Jon he needed to be “smarter,” which he could have taken to heart. A plot like this, similar to the the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, could be part of the general theme of “I learn” and the Starks going from pawns to players.

Kit Harrington has said this about Jon Snow’s character in s7 and s8: “But this year, I think he becomes a politician… He starts manipulating people in a Jon Snow way - in a kind way, but he has a job to do.” (x) This not only confirms that Jon IS operating as apolitical actor, but could also imply that Jon has a strategic goal or purpose. However, Jon having real feelings for Dany is not necessarily at odds with him having a second agenda. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

Jon steadfastly maintained through out the season that he would not be bending the knee. He even went so far as to tell Dany “I am a king.” It could be difficult for people to see how he would make such a complete 180, and a seemingly needless and unnecessary one given that Dany agreed to fight the NK before he bent the knee.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been story lines, like the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, that were dishonest on their face. The way they were portrayed was intended to mislead the audience. So D&D are capable of using this kind of plot device.

The way I see this kind of story line going, it would also essentially be a pretty significant parallel to the Jon and the Wildlings plot, where Jon had real feelings for Ygritte but the situation was complicated by duty and circumstance. However, this would mean that it’s material D&D are familiar with.

All of the finale was full of subtext about lying and lies and honor. They laid it on so thick. Thick enough, I felt, that it could imply that Jon is hiding something or that part of him is overcompensating and/or being motivated by guilt.

Arguments Against UCJ:

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Obviously, Jon’s honor code and strong senses of morality and duty are huge parts of his character. It’s totally reasonable to think that he has no ulterior motives beyond forming an alliance to ensure Dany and her dragons will fight with the North.

I think that Jon knows The NK will probably have a dragon how (he has seen the NK raise people from the dead, and he knows from the wight hunt that the NK can also raise animals from the dead). He knows without the dragons, they do not stand a chance. So he is doing everything necessary to ensure the dragons are on their side.

Jon has been consistently portrayed as a Hero and Moral Compass type character. There would be no reason for them to do anything that had the potential to  turn the audience so vehemently against him in the final season.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been some incredibly stupid story lines (jfc that wight hunt). It’s fair to be suspicious that a story line of this manner is beyond what D&D have the tendency to produce in terms of complex details.

There are only 6 episodes left. I have a really hard time imagining how they would pull this off in 6 episodes ON TOP OF everything else that has to happen before the series ends.

In regards to the plot device of characters using seduction and emotional manipulation as a tool, D&D have consistently been typical dude bro’s insofar as it has been largely female characters who have done so (Cersei, Margaery, Shae, Osha, ect.) It might be completely beyond them to think to have a male character utilize those techniques in such a manner.

I see valid arguments being made on both sides here to constitute a generally sufficient case for it going either way. I think that anyone who would argue “yes the is 100% going to happen” OR “no there is a 0% chance this is happening” would be willfully disregarding evidence from one side or the other. Obviously it’s natural that people will find one side or the other more persuasive, everything about speculation is subjective. But I just don’t feel like it would be possible to make any definitive statements at this point. 

All the reasons I have for thinking this could be possible or impossible have nothing to do with me shipping Jon/Sansa. They actually don’t really have anything to do with Sansa herself at all in any different way than they have to do with everyone in the North that Jon’s decision affects. I know there are some people who might not believe me when I say that, but I supposed there is nothing I can do about it. But that’s the thing about speculation: it’s always subjective, there can be arguments made for both sides. While some people may say “Jon has made promises to Dany and he wouldn’t break them and betray her,” the flip side is “in making these promises to Dany, Jon has betrayed his duty and promises he made to all of his subjects as their king whom they trust.” For every argument, there is a counter argument; for every action, there is a reaction. For every person who can’t believe Jon would betray Dany, there is another person who can’t believe Jon would betray his family. For every person who believes Jon was right to bend the knee, there is another person who can’t believe he would do it. For every person who thinks Dany deserves to rule the Seven Kingdoms, there is another person who believes the North deserves their freedom and independence.

All things considered, I do feel there could be some potential conflict in regards to Jon’s intentions and motivations. I think there are various events and ambiguities in the past and present plot, as well as in Jon’s actions and in Jon and Dany’s relationship, that support said hypothesis. My best guess is that Jon definitely has some guilt about bending the knee because he either: a) knows the north will NEVER go for it, or b) was being genuine and feels guilty for having unilaterally made such a huge decision that effects so many people, including his own family, with out their input (which he should because ffs dude come on!) .The only thing that I believe Jon has been outright dishonest about is telling Dany that the Northerners would bend the knee accept her as Queen. The North has a very deep seated rhetoric against the Targaryens. Whether it’s true or not is essentially a moot point, it’s just something that is deeply embedded in their history. In 7x02 they went out of their way to make a ~big deal~ about how “Targaryens can’t be trusted.” The North also has a historic distrust and disdain for Southern rule and the Iron Throne, going all the way back to Torrhen Stark, the king who knelt. I don’t think there is any way that Jon could reasonably believe that Dany won’t be met with opposition from the North… All the rest of it, including Jon’s feelings towards Dany, kind of falls into a gray area of words vs. actions vs. intent vs. motivations. Which makes sense, because this would be a morally gray plot; and it wouldn’t be the first time one of those was featured on Game of Thrones. 

I suspect that, like with Operation Wildling, Jon has no real escape plan or exit strategy here; I honestly don’t think that he has thought about it that much (also implying that any deliberate, premeditated manipulation or ill intent on his part would be minimal or non existent). Honestly, I think that Jon believes he is not going to survive to see the extended repercussions of and reactions to his bending the knee. I think that Jon truly believes he is going to die fighting the NK. He already showed that he was willing to die when he told Dany to leave him behind in 7x06. Like the rest of us, his he is probably wondering how in the ever loving fuck his ass has somehow managed to survive this long. (Honestly being like, “I’ll bend/pretend to bend the knee and then just die so I don’t have to face Sansa” would ABSOLUTELY be a Jon Snow thing to do.) I think Jon made what he saw as the best decision in the present, and isn’t concerned about the future or the fallout. Which, if true, could lead to a couple possible conflicts for next season:

Possibility 1- Jon dies in the BftD and Dany lives, leaving Dany to face the North and Cersei on her own.

Possibility 2- Dany dies in the BftD and Jon lives, leaving him to deal with the fallout in the North and Cersei alone.

Possibility 3- Both Jon and Dany survive the BftD and the North makes it clear that they will not accept his as queen, leaving Jon to decide who’s side he will be on. His decision then would obviously be complicated by his feelings for Dany and his loyalty to his family ect. ect.

Possibility 4- The White Walkers win and everyone dies so it doesn’t even matter!

(*Disclaimer: Obviously this list is just me speculating and is in no way comprehensive or exhaustive.)

And like Anon said, if Jon is going to be the third reason that Dany suffers, then Possible Conflict #’s 1 and 3 could definitely play into that. In #1 Dany would not only be dealing with Jon’s death, but also with the knowledge that he was dishonest to her. And in #3 if Jon ends up siding with the Starks in a potential conflict, that could possibly be a major betrayal.

I also think subjectivity comes into play big time here with regards to which parts of the story people prefer or find more compelling or are more interested in. Game of Thrones has SO MUCH going on and there are so many different lenses through which people can view it. Who are the most important characters? What is the most important plot? Who is The Hero™? Who is The Villain™? What is the ideal endgame? I would bet you pretty much anything no two people would answer all those questions the exact same way. We as an audience have been waiting 6 seasons for BOTH the Stark Restoration/Northern Independence AND the Dany Getting to Westeros plots to play out. I’ve kind of talked about it a little bit before, but for me personally (and I think for others as well), it was extremely narratively frustrating to finally get the narrative pay out from the Stark story line, only to have it be given up and taken away such a short time later. 

I also think that if Jon’s storyline is 100% completely honest, straight forward, and genuine as it stands, then like 90% of the major, climactic events of his arc will seem to have been pointless and he will have learned nothing from them. It would also seem that Jon bending the knee and unilaterally making such a huge decision for such a large number of people so easily would go against a lot of what he has supposedly learned. I’m not even saying that it was the wrong decision or that he didn’t have the authority to make it or even that it would be completely ooc. However, such a seemingly single minded action would show an alarming and annoying (imo) lack of character development… Which, again, is entirely possible. This is D&D after all.

In sum, I honestly don’t have that strong of a stance on this tbh. I guess mine is kind of like a Moderate View on the theory or like, “Undercover Jon Light.” I think some variation of it could definitely be possible and would be an interesting potential plot so I won’t rule it out completely. But I also won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen.

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

this is perfection

so sad all of this buildup and foreshadowing got mired down by whatever the hell happened at the last moment before the last season ended - where Jon’s characterization went AWOL

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

The Political!Jon Theory is Misogynistic

In addition to reducing who Jon Snow is as a person to dust, as I addressed in an earlier post, the political!Jon theory is an insult to Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.

I genuinely have trouble comprehending that some people are so invested in Jonsa that they’re willing GoT to end on a misogynistic message like the one it will end on if the political!Jon theory was true. Are they really not realizing how disgusting it is? Not just to Daenerys, but to Sansa as well?

Let’s start with Daenerys. Daenerys has had more than one, for the lack of a better word, love interest over the events of GoT. And she has never been so pathetically in love with any of them to the point that she would set aside her lifelong goals and aspirations in order to please them. Far before Daenerys Targaryen is a love interest to anyone, she is a queen, a woman in a position of power who is determined to achieve her objective. Her primary motive, as if the end of Season 7, is to defeat the Night King.

And don't try to say that Daenerys pledged to help Jon because she is in love with him; this is wrong. She has pledged to help him because she has seen the danger that the Night King poses with her own eyes. He killed one of her dragons, a part of her, and he is coming to take more of what she holds dear. That is why Daenerys is helping the North. It is not because of Jon Snow's dick, no matter what people want to say or believe. 

That is the kind of person Daenerys is. Romance has never been her goal. Getting and keeping a man has never been her goal. If anyone disagrees, I suggest that you rewatch the show. 

And this woman, beautiful, ambitious, determined woman who is a ruler in her own right, will be used, thrown aside, and toppled by the man she loves enough to set aside her goals for, a man who does not even love her back. That's...disgusting. I don't think I can truly express in words how utterly repugnant that is. The fact that people can support a theory that requires something like that for the sake of shipping is abhorrent. 

Now we move on to Sansa. Sansa is no stranger to being manipulated. Sansa was manipulated by both Joffrey and Littlefinger; Joffrey, in Season 1, played on her idealized crush on him to bend her to his will in order to get a confession of treason from Ned. Littlefinger plays on her fear, desire to get out of the treacherous King's Landing, to further his own ends. Both of these end in devastating trauma for Sansa: her father is beheaded after Joffrey has gotten the confession out of him, and Sansa is raped and abused by the husband Littlefinger gave her to. 

And Sansa, who has suffered such acts of manipulations and such hellish situations as a result of those manipulations, has little enough self-respect and self-worth and self-dignity to prance happily by political!Jon, who manipulated and used a woman. She will love him and adore him after what he did. 

Let me break your fantasy: No, she will not. Not just Sansa; no self-respecting woman would love a man who manipulated a woman after being the victim of manipulations herself. Even if she concedes that it was for the good of the North or some other bullshit (except Jon didn't need to approach and instigate sex with Daenerys to get her forces because she already pledged to help him long before that, but let us turn to the magic of selective memory because otherwise political!Jon would make zero sense and would not even be worth discussing), it will not help advance Jonsa, folks. Not if you see Sansa as anything more than either an idiot who will not realize the gravity of political!Jon's actions or a self-destructive, meek puppet who will approve of anything Jon does no matter what the hell it is. 

I mean, can you imagine? 

Jon: "Hey Sansa, I got a woman to put her lifelong aspirations on hold because she loves me more than anything else even though I don't care at all about her. Now that the Night King is defeated and we have no more need of her, I told her she can fuck off and that I was using her this whole time, that she’s served her purpose and is useless now!"

Sansa: *looks at him with emoji heart eyes* "You are just the greatest, Jon." 

The political!Jon theory tramples and shits all over the characters of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark, and people say it is subversive. Miss me with that. It's dreadfully, nauseatingly misogynistic.

[dangos2]

Jon is not a Terrible Liar

So, I had a thought recently. You know how everyone went to King’s Landing to persuade Cersei to go north with her armies and fight the dead? 

You know how Jon managed to say the one thing that was most likely to piss Cersei off the most?

You know how it was crucial for Jon to convince Cersei to fight the army of the dead? 

You know how Jon and Sansa had an entire conversation about preventing The Night King from marching south? And Cersei from marching North?

I don’t think Jon wanted Cersei to join the alliance. I think he saw an opportunity to impress Daenerys and anger Cersei and he took it. 

There’s a lot wrong with this thought. I mean, he did look upset when Cersei left the dragonpit, but I think it could have been over how obviously angry she was. 

The facts are: Jon needs Daenery’s dragons. Jon wants Cersei to stay far away from the North. Daenerys won’t join his cause unless she thinks she can win both the Northern and Southern thrones.  

[qboo78]

To be honest even if you don't believe the undercover lover theory or political! Jon theory in season 7, you can't really say Jon would never lie or go undercover lover because he did...we all knew that... Ygritte could attest to that... Ygritte experienced the betrayal even though in the end Jon came to love her IT WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR JON to renounce WHO HE REALLY IS... JON remain true to his mission and found out key information about the wildlings then returned back, escaped... then when he became Lord Commander, Jon played the game of thrones... in fact his experience at the Wall was like his training ground for political Jon! He juggled the demands of the brothers of the night's watch that were against him, the wildlings, and Stannis very well for quite some time... sure he was not successful in the end in terms of the NW brothers because they killed him and betrayed him but i felt that it was a lesson learned on Jon's part on how not to be so trusting when your adversaries do not play by the rules and not have any honor....and you can see it in how he handled the northern lords he made sure he left someone to hold the fort that is clever enough to handle them lol ...someone schooled in playing the game and a better politician than he is haha... everything he did has always been to protect the North and his family... not because it was his duty but because it is his home and he loves his family. So any kind of scenario that somehow changes that and makes Jon change his purpose and will to fight by "falling in love" is really not believable and just doesn't make sense unless the love story was given enough development and their connection was powerful enough to break his bond with his love for the North and his Stark family. And no, sex on a boat is not enough. I mean if sex in a cave with enough foreplay allotted into it did not make Jon Snow forget and forsake who he is then why should sex on a boat be any different... so yeah Jon Snow is many things but a northern fool he is definitely not...well unless he is the kind of "fool" that fooled everyone with his "honesty is the best policy" great speech because then yeah he is that... Jon WOULD and can definitely lie and manipulate when there is someone he needs to protect. Jon Snow, King in the North would not even hesitate...

[emmyliaclarke]

When I see a nice Jonerys gifset on my dash but it’s actually an undercover Jon gifset: