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demigod-of-the-agni · 6 months

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Spider-Man India, but... where from India?

A SUPER long post featuring talks of: cultural identity, characterisation, the caste system, and what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man.

I’m prefacing this by saying that I am a second-generation immigrant. I was born in Australia, but my cultural background is from South India. My experiences with what it means to be “Indian” is going to be very different from the experiences of those who are born and brought up in India.

If you, reader, want to add anything, please reblog and add your thoughts. This is meant to be a post open for discussion — the more interaction we get, the better we become aware of these nuances.

So I made this poll asking folks to pick a region of India where I would draw Pavitr Prabhakar in their cultural wear. This idea had been on my mind for a long while now, as I had been inspired by Annie Hazarika’s Northeastern Spidey artwork in the wake of ATSV’s release, but never got the time to actually do it until now. I wanted to get a little interactive and made the poll so I could have people choose which of the different regions — North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South — to do first.

The outcome was not what I expected. As you can see, out of 83 votes:

THE RESULTS

South India takes up almost half of all votes (44.6%), followed by Northeast and Central (both 14.5%) and then East (13.3%). In all my life growing up, support towards or even just the awareness of South India was pretty low. Despite this being a very contained poll, why would nearly half of all voters pick South India in favour of other popular choices like Central or North India?

Then I thought about the layout of the poll: Title, Options, Context.

Title: "Tell us who you want to see…"

Options: North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South

Context: I want to make art of the boy again

At first I thought: ah geez. this is my fault. I didn't make the poll clear enough. do they think I want them to figure out where Pavitr came from? That's not what I wanted, maybe I should have added the context before the options.

Then I thought: ah geez. is it my fault for people not reading the entire damn thing before clicking a button? That's pretty stupid.

But regardless, the thought did prompt a line of thinking I know many of us desi folk have been considering since Spider-Man India was first conceived — or, at least, since the announcement that he was going to appear in ATSV. Hell, even I thought of it:

Where did Spider-Man India come from?

FROM A CULTURALLY DIVERSE INDIA

As we know, India is so culturally diverse, and no doubt ATSV creators had to take that into account. Because the ORIGINAL Spider-Man India came from Mumbai — most likely because Mumbai and Manhattan both started with the same letter.

But going beyond that, it’s also because Mumbai is one of the most recognisable cities in India - it’s also known as Bombay. It’s where Bollywood films are shot. It’s where superstar Hindi actors and actresses show up. Mumbai is synonymous with India in that regard, because the easiest way Western countries can interact with Indian culture is through BOLLYWOOD, through HINDI FILMS, through MUMBAI. Suddenly, India is Mumbai, India is a Hindi-only country, India is just this isolated thing we see through an infinitely narrow lens.

We’ve gotten a little better in recent years, but boy I will tell you how uncomfortable I’ve gotten when people (yes, even desi people) come up to me and tell me, Oh, you’re Indian right? Can you speak Hindi? Why don’t you speak Hindi? You’re not Indian if you don’t speak Hindi, that’s India’s national language!

I have been — still am — so afraid of telling people that I don’t speak Hindi, that I’m Tamil, that I don’t care that Hindi is India’s “national” language (it’s an administrative language, Kavin, get your fucking facts right). It’s weird, it’s isolating, and it has made me feel like I wasn’t “Indian” enough to be accepted into the group of “Indian” people.

So I am thankful that ATSV went out of their way to integrate as much variety of Indian culture into the Mumbattan sequence. Maybe that way, the younger generation of desi folk won’t feel so isolated, and that younger Western people will be more open to learning about all these cultural differences within such a vast country.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SPIDER-MAN INDIA?

Everything, actually. There’s a thing called supremacy. You might have heard of it. We all engaged with it at some point, and if you are Indian, no matter where you live, it is inescapable.

It happens the moment you are born — who your family is, where you are born, the language you speak, the colour of your skin; these will be bound to you for life, and it is nigh impossible to break down the stereotypes associated with them.

Certain ethnic groups will be more favourable than others (Centrals, and thus their cultures, will always be favoured over than Souths, as an example) and the same can be said for social groups (Brahmins are more likely to secure influential roles in politics or other areas like priesthood, while the lowers castes, especially Dalits, aren’t even given the decency of respect). Don’t even get me started on colourism, where obviously those of fairer skin will win the lottery while those of darker skin aren’t given the time of day. It’s even worse when morality ties into it — “lighter skinned Indians, like Brahmins, embody good qualities like justice and wisdom”, “dark skinned Indians are cunning and poor, they are untrustworthy”. It’s fucking nuts.

This means, of course, you have a billion people trying to make themselves heard in a system that tries to crush everyone who is not privileged. It only makes sense that people want to elevate themselves and break free from a society that refuses to acknowledge them. These frustrations manifest outwardly, like in protests, but other times — most times — it goes unheard, quietly shaping your way of life, your way of thinking. It becomes a fundamental part of you, and it can go unacknowledged for generations.

So when you have a character like Pavitr Prabhakar enter the scene, people immediately latch onto him and start asking questions many Western audiences don’t even consider. Who is he? What food does he eat? What does he do on Fridays? What’s his family like, his community? All these questions pop up, because, amidst all this turmoil going on in the background, you want a mainstream popular character to be like you, who knows your way of life so intimately, that he may as well be a part of your community.

BUT THAT'S THE THING — HE'S FICTIONAL

I am guilty of this. In fact, I’ve flaunted in numerous posts how I think he’s the perfect Tamil boy, how he dances bharatanatyam, how he does all these Tamil things that no one will understand except myself. All these niche things that only I, and maybe a few others, will understand.

I’ve seen other people do it, too. I’ve seen people geek out over his dark brown skin, his kalari dhoti, how he fights so effortlessly in the kalaripayattu martial arts style. I’ve seen people write him as Malayali, as Hindi, as every kind of Indian person imaginable.

I’ve also seen him be written where he’s subjected to typical Indian and broader Asian stereotypes. You know the ones I’m so fond of calling out. The thing is, I’ve seen so much of Pavitr being presented in so many different ways, and I worry how the rest of the desi folk will take it.

You finally have a character who could be you, but now he’s someone else’s plaything. Your entire life is shaped by what you can and can’t do simply because you were born to an Indian family, and here’s the one person who could represent you now at the mercy of someone else’s whims. He’s off living a life that is so distant from yours, you can hardly recognise him.

It shouldn’t hurt as much as it does, yeah? But, again, you’re looking at it from that infinitely narrow lens Westerners use to look at India from Bollywood.

AND PAVITR PRABHAKAR DOESN'T LIVE IN INDIA

He lives in Mumbattan. He lives in a made-up, fictional world that doesn’t follow the way of life of our world. He lives in a city where Mumbai and Manhattan got fucking squashed together. There are so many memes about colonialism right there. Mumbattan isn’t real! Spider-Man India isn’t real!! He’s just a dude!! The logic of our world doesn’t apply to him!!!

“But his surname originates from ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he’s wearing a kalari dhoti so surely he’s ______” okay but does that matter?

“But his skin colour is darker so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he lives in Mumbai so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

I sound insensitive and brash and annoying and it looks like I’m yapping just for the sake of riling you up, so direct that little burst of anger you got there at me, and keep reading.

Listen. I’m going to ask you a question that I’ve asked myself a million times over. I want you to answer honestly. I want you to ask this question to yourself and answer honestly:

Are you trying to convince me on who Pavitr Prabhakar should be?

... but why shouldn't i?

I’ll tell you this again — I did the same thing. You’re not at fault for this, but I want you to just...have a little think over. Just a little moment of self-reflection, to think about why you are so intent on boxing this guy.

It took me a while to reorganise my thinking and how to best approach a character like Pavitr, so I will give you all the time you need as well as a little springboard to focus your thoughts on.

SPIDER-MAN (INDIA) IS JUST A MASK

“What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing.”

Stan Lee said that. Remember how he was so intent on making sure that everybody got the idea that Spider-Man as an entity is fundamentally broken without Peter Parker there to put on the suit and save the day? That ultimately it was the person beneath the mask, no matter who they were, that mattered most?

Spider-Man India is no less different. You can argue with me that Peter Parker!Spidey is supposed to represent working class struggles in the face of leering corporate entities who endanger the regular folk like us, and so Pavitr Prabhakar should also function the same way. Pavitr should also be a working class guy of this specific social standing fighting people of this other social standing.

But that takes away the authenticity of Spider-Man India. Looking at him through the Peter Parker lens forces you to look at him through the Western lens, and it significantly lessens what you can do with the character — suddenly, it’s a fight to be heard, to be seen, to be recognised. It’s yelling over each other that Pavitr Prabhakar is this ethnicity, is that caste, this or that, this or that, this or that.

There’s a reason why he’s called Spider-Man India, infuriatingly vague as it is. And that’s the point — the vagueness of his identity fulfils Lee’s purpose for a character that could theoretically be embodied by anyone. If he had been called “Spider-Man Mumbai”, you cut out a majority of the population (and in capitalist terms, you cut out a good chunk of the market).

And in the case of Spider-Man India? Whew — you’ve got about a billion people imagining a billion different versions of him.

Whoever you are, whatever you see in Pavitr, that is what is personal to you, and there is nothing wrong with that, and I will not fault you for it. I will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from Central due to the origins of his last name. I also will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from South due to him practising kalaripayattu. I also will not fault you for saying he is not Hindu. I also will not fault you for saying he is a particular ethnicity without any proof.

What I will fault you for is trying to convince me and the others around you that Pavitr Prabhakar should be this particular ethnicity/have this cultural background because of some specific reason. I literally don’t care and it is fundamentally going against his character, going against the “anyone can wear the mask” sentiment of Spider-Man. By doing this, you are strengthening the walls that first divided us. You’re feeding the stratification and segmentation of our cultures — something that is actually not present in the fictional world of Mumbattan.

Like I said before: Mumbattan isn’t real, so the divides between ethnicities and cultural backgrounds are practically nonexistent. The best thing is that it is visually there for all to see. My favourite piece of evidence is this:

It’s a marquee for a cinema in the Mumbattan sequence, in the “Quick tour: this is where the traffic is” section. It has four titles; the first two are written in Hindi. The third title is written in Bengali*, and the fourth title is written in Tamil. You go to Mumbai and you won’t see a single shred of Bengali nor Tamil there, much less any other language that's not common in Maharashtra (Western India). Seeing this for the first time, you know what went through my head?

Wow, the numerous cultures of India are so intermingled here in Mumbattan! Everyone and everything is welcome!

I was happy, not just because of Tamil representation, but because of the fact that the plethora of Indian cultures are showcased coexisting in such a short sequence. This is India embracing all the little parts that make up its grander identity. This scene literally opened my eyes seeing such beauty in all the diverse cultures thriving together. In a place where language and cultural backgrounds blend so easily, each one complementing one another.

It is so easy to believe that, from this colourful palette of a setting, Pavitr Prabhakar truly is Spider-Man India, no matter where he comes from.

It’s easy to believe that Pavitr can come from any part of India, and I won’t call you out if the origin you have for him is different from the origin I have. You don’t need to stake out territory and stand your ground — you’re entitled to that opinion, and I respect it. In fact, I encourage it!!!

Because there’s only so much you can show in a ten minute segment of a film about a country that has such a vast history and even greater number of cultures. I want to see all of it — I want him to be a Malayali boy, a Hindi boy, a Bengali boy, a Telugu boy, an Urdu boy, whatever!! I want you to write him or draw him immersed in your culture, so that I can see the beauty of your background, the wonderful little things that make your culture unique and different from mine!

And, as many friends have said, it’s so common for Indian folks to be migrating around within our own country. A person with a Maharashtrian surname might end up living in Punjab, and no one really minds that. I’m actually from Karnataka, my family speaks Kannada, but somewhere down the line my ancestors moved to Tamil Nadu and settled down and lived very fulfilling lives. So I don’t actually have the “pure Tamil” upbringing, contrary to popular belief; I’ve gotten a mix of both Kannada and Tamil lifestyles, and it’s made my life that much richer.

So it’s common for people to “not” look like their surname, if that’s what you’re really afraid about. In fact, it just adds to that layer of nuance, that even despite these rigid identities between ethnicities we as Indian people still intermingle with one another, bringing slivers of our cultures to share with others. Pavitr could just as well have been born in one state and moved around the country, and he happens to live in Mumbattan now. It’s entirely possible and there’s nothing to disprove that.

We don’t need to clamber over one another declaring that only one ethnicity is the “right” ethnicity, because, again, you will be looking at Pavitr and the rest of India in that narrow Western lens — a country with such rich cultural variety reduced to a homogenous restrictive way of life.

THE POLL: REINTERPRETED

This whole thing started because I was wondering why my little poll was so skewed — I thought people assumed I was asking them where he came from, then paired his physical appearance with the most logical options available. I thought it was my fault, that I had somehow influenced this outcome without knowing.

Truth is, I will never really know. But I will be thankful for it, because it gave me the opportunity to finally broach this topic, something that many of us desi folk are hesitant to talk about. I hope you have learned something from this, whether you are desi or a casual Spider-Man fan or someone who just so happened to stumble upon this.

So just…be a little more open. Recognise that India, like many many countries and nations, is made up of a plethora of smaller cultures. And remember, if you’re trying to convince Pavitr that he’s a particular ethnicity, he’s going to wave his hand at you and say, “Ha, me? No, I’m one of the people that live here in the best Indian city! I’m Spider-Man India, dost!”

(Regardless, he still considers you a friend, because to him, the people matter more to him than you trying to box him into something he’s not.)

*Note: thank you dear anon for letting me know that the third title was Bengali, twas my mistake for literally completely forgetting

#long post + more tags that kinda spiral away BUT expand on the points above AND kinda puts everything together concisely #BROS THIS IS AN HONEST TO GOD ESSAY #THAT HAS BEEN COOKING IN MY HEART FOR A WHILE NOW. SIMMERING FOR MONTHS BEFORE FINALLY BOILING OVER IN THE LAST WEEK #genuinely hope you read MOST of it because yes it has Quite A Lot Of Exposition but it all matters nonetheless #put in a lot of thought into this so i expect you to do your part and challenge your thoughts as well #you see how i'm not asking for you to listen to me. but to actually Think. i want you to cook your thoughts and add some spice and flavour #and give it a good mix so you can come out of this a little more wiser than before #because!!! yeah!!!! spider man india is just that!! he's indian!!!!! we don't need to collectively agree on where he comes from #bc it gets rid of that relatability factor of spider man. at the most basic level #think of it as a schrodinger's. he is every single culture and none of them at the same time. therefore none of us are wrong!! sick!!!!#pavitr's first priority is making sure HIS PEOPLE are safe. that's probably as far as we can go that relates him back to peter parker spide #he loves his people and working in the name of justice to FIGHT for HIS PEOPLE is just the duty/responsibility he takes up #it makes sense that he loves everyone and every culture he engages with bc that's the nature of spider man i suppose #if peter parker spidey acts as the guardian for the regular folk.. then in my mind pavitr spidey stands as the bridge uniting the people #because society as its core is very fragmented. and having pavitr act as a connection to other folks.... mmmmm beautiful #that's what i'm talking abouttttt !!!#anyways guys this is literally 3001 words on my document EXCLUDING THE TITLE. THAT'S 7 PAGES AT 11pt FONT. i'm literally cryingggg wtf #pavitr prabhakar #spider man #spider man india #desi #desiblr #atsv #across the spiderverse #atsv pavitr #indian culture #india #desi tumblr #what the fuck do i tag this as #agnirambles

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musubiki · 1 month

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lately ive been thinking about the contrast going on in Early Lime where hes like "tbh im pretty sure i could have any girl i wanted including mochi i mean i guess if she wanted we could give it a shot one day but i dont really care lol" and then very easily becoming completely unhinged for her the second he gets a tinge of romantic affection

#lime: yeah mochis not a huge deal i mean were friends #af (after affection) lime: *needs to dunk his head in the sink at least once a week trying to snap himself out of thinking about her*#anyway. its been a while since them i miss them #my recent development is taking away limes mochi cuddle time #it makes more sense for the slow burn if he cant cuddle with her whenever he wants #starve him #lime: (why would i like her shes so plain shouldnt i be with like some supermodel or something ??)#lime: (the kind of person everyone wants but cant have??)#also lime when mochi smiles at him: (i want to kiss the shit out of you)#i think there something about limes family where being a goldwood means being expected to be a cut above #where its ingrained they should only be/settle for the best of the best #so lime catching feelings for this (pre-reveal) very normal and plain forgettable girl that no one else seems to give a shit about..#...is a struggle for him #tiramisu thinks its laughable because the goldwoods arent part of the magic community #she thinks its hilarious how they are lowkey obsessed with being successful and top-notch when they literally have no idea whats going on #i dont think the goldwoods are even especially rich #maybe its just one of those (parents being hard on you so you can have a better life than they did) kind of things #but they are known to be a well-connected and beautiful family #any goldwood you meet i the prettiest person youve ever seen #i wonder if they were disappointed or proud of lime when they found out he joined the capitol guard #his sister became a dentist #maybe it was one of those (why would you join the military...youre going to struggle...)#and then he tells them his paycheck and all of a sudden theyre like (we're so proud!!!)#(the capitol guard in general has pretty normal pay but the m-34th gets way more as a specialized unit)

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javsarts · 1 year

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Do not ask me for context for there is none, it’s just a bunch of Pinterest studies mashed together to keep my drawing hand working.

#the wayhaven chronicles #twc #seraphinitegames #unit bravo #adam du mortain #a du mortain #agent m #agent mason #specialist agent m #reminds me of early 2000s Mexican soap opera for some reason #but yeah this is stupid #but like #no regrets #my art #i should be working #yes I have an obsession with long haired Adam #composition is fucked so don’t remind me hahaha #I’m well aware

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geronimomo-spd · 2 months

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you go into classic who to figure out which doctor's era is making people go insane, only to discover its all of them and you will be going insane about them too, every single one, in order. mostly

#doctor who #classic doctor who #classic who #60s who #60s who its about youuuu #then you really appriciate the eco systems on tumblr for each era #also iwill never leave the going insane over the first doctor era eco system i love it here #the second doctor mad lads are sooo here and love for jamie too. ya'll have so much to say about this little hobo and you are right #the third doctor unit family gang. love ya'll #the fourth doctor era peeps who live for gallifrey audios and loveee harry suliven #the 5th doc's lovers who made me see his astma and are also mostly obsessed with turlough #the six doctor peeps who loveeee him and peri and post new fanfics almost every single day. and his audio lovers too my god #seven era peeps who just. are so well versed in littiraly everything #ya'll know so much its insane #that love ace and have a lottt of opnions about the master plan. and love Hex. and just. understanhd the doctor so well #and of course #also me #eighth doctor labotomy lovers who do go insane over scherzo annuliy and love traumotizing people over the hand holding emoji #and of course the rest of the audio lovers and comic era knowlageable peeps and yeah #and of course those who are every or at least more then one of these #the backbone of this fandom

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allgremlinart · 6 months

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temperatures officially over 76 Fahrenheit pray for me I dont have long 🙏

#to mutuals in Southeast Asia or the South of the Contiguous United States Of America I know this is pussy shit #but. I'm a pussy. when it comes to the heat. :(#I'm like the opposite of a lizard....#<- well yeah. idiot. basic science observation.

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puppyeared · 6 months

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Atla live action 😐

#thats my honest reaction 😐#to be fair ive only seen 20 minutes of the s1 finale bc my parents are watching it but. mmmmm kinda mid #like. the casting is definitely an improvement since the last time they tried a live action but it feels like the writing falls flat #or maybe im being harsh bc ive only heard negative criticism on it beforehand. but fr anytime u bring up the original its already #good and not just because its the original. so much fucking detail went into it to the point of someone noticing azula wielding mai's knive #to how well thought out irohs character is used as a way of uniting the cast especially as zukos foil #i heard that sokkas sexism was toned down and i have to agree that feels like a cheap move. like i get WHY they think it would be better #but its not about how that reflects on real world its about how it affects the story. sokka starts out as a misogynistic asshole because #it makes it that much more impactful when he changes. toning that down makes it flatter and makes his character development weak #and someone pointed out they didnt even make him wear the kyoshi warrior uniform and i know it feels like such a small detail but #come on man. they did that in the original because not only does it help him really walk in their shoes - wearing 'feminine' clothing and #makeup and having suki explain its significance but it also ties in with the shows theme of harmony and intersectionality #i was also disappointed when they had the fire sages explain how the water tribe draws power from the moon because in the original it was #IROH who explained it to aang and everyone else BECAUSE we as the audience is under the impression hes with the 'bad guys'#and it builds up to how he learned from the other nations which reconciles his past as a war general and his character overall #AND its an excellent starting point for the cast and audience to understand how the nations arent as closed off as you would think #plus you would think its only fire nation doing propaganda but they expanded on that with earth kingdom censorship and it WORKS #a lot of things in the live action also feel arbitrary like. they gave momo a near death experience for 5 minutes for no reason #im firmly on the stance of bringing back filler moments instead of putting major events right after each other so that u give your #audience a sense of time passing and to really absorb the story. but i think thats more like shock value than filler and yeah its a small #thing to gripe about but those things build up and its really annoying. the thing abt avatar filler moments is that however small #its at least meaningful. hell even the beach episode emphasizes how isolated zuko and his friends are as child soldiers #i also swore to never watch the first live action since it was that bad but i really liked the stylized tattoos they used for aang #anyway. those arejust my thoughts. im not gonna watch the rest because im a ride or die for the original aftr growing up and #rewatching it at least 20 times as a kid. but theres definitely room for improvement and i wish ppl wouldnt take it as 'better' just cuz #netflix is adapting it. i wouldve killed for them to just reanimate the entire avatar series and touch NOTHING ELSE no redub #no changes to the story. just reanimate the thing and leave the rest alone and youd make easy money just the same #ALSO its very jarring not hearing jack desena and dante basco voicing sokka and zuko cause their voices were the most recognizable to me #i get that its because its live action but im allowed to feel a little sad abt that. and uncle irohs accent was really soothing #yapping

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the-eclectic-wonderer · 4 months

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Ok. I need to talk about S5E23: The Mangiacavallo Curse Makes a Lousy Wedding Present because it's a) a damn good episode and b) so filled with Blanche/Dorothy (and a good pinch of Golden Wives too) I can feel my gay power level increase minute by minute every time I watch it. Under a cut because I (unsurprisingly) got verbose about it.

First of all: the whole thing with Blanche 'lending' one of her men to Dorothy for the wedding. The concept alone is just -- I've said before, several times, that the Girls treat their men as accessories, and this episode just spells it out.

Dorothy doesn't really want a date per se, she's mostly upset because of social expectations:

"I still don't have a date for Jenny's wedding. My own goddaughter, and I'm gonna show up alone."

She's worried because weddings are events where you typically bring a +1 along, especially if you're closely related (either as family or via friendship) to one of the spouses. She's worried about the social norm! This is a bit of a general thing in the series, especially for Dorothy, I think; there are several instances when she's upset at not having a date for a specific event, rather than not dating in general. Plus, she gets over it fairly quickly! Before Blanche agrees to lend her the judge, she tells Sophia that she's just going to go alone!

Speaking of Blanche, look at how she describes her men! Here's some quotes:

"You can borrow one of my extras. What kind of guy would you like?"

"Oh, Dorothy, come on. Borrow one of my men. One of my many, many, many, many, many, many men!"

"Oh, Dorothy, not Doug! I couldn't possibly. He's on my A-list."

"Oh, Dorothy, let me get you somebody hot off my A-list. Somebody tall, good-looking, goes with everything!"

"Don't you forget, you be careful. This man is on loan from the Blanche Devereaux collection."

I mean -- she might as well be talking about a purse or a pair of shoes! (As a side note: yes, all those lines begin with 'Oh, Dorothy'. I checked.)

Dorothy fully embraces this point of view, too:

"You always do this, Blanche. You always keep all the good guys for yourself and you give us the leftovers."

She complains about Blanche's lack of generosity -- and this might just be my personal opinion, but generosity is usually connected to material things. Once again: she might as well be getting upset because Blanche refuses to let her borrow a purse.

Rose is the only one who's somewhat concerned at not having Miles as a +1, but it seems to me that's essentially because of the 'getting hot at weddings' thing. When she introduces the problem, we get this dialogue between her and Dorothy:

"Miles can't take me to the wedding. He's going to be out of town at a teaching seminar. Now I can't go."

"That shouldn't keep you from going."

"Oh, I have my reasons."

And then she says:

"So now you see why I can't go if Miles is gonna be out of town. I might end up almost going to bed with the caterer again."

It seems to me she's not that upset because of Miles's absence; she would have gone anyway without a care in the world if the event wasn't a wedding. She doesn't necessarily treat Miles like an accessory, but she's not particularly saddened by his absence, either -- just worried about the effect weddings have on her.

And then, with all this established: the toilet scene. When the scene returns on Dorothy keeping Blanche trapped in the toilet, there's already a couple of guests looking at them and whispering among themselves (which isn't strange at all: they're making A Scene™ right there in the ladies' room!). The whole fight has such an incredible Married Couple Quarrel energy:

"Dorothy, let me out of here right now!"

"There's only one way out, Blanche, and I don't think you can hold your breath long enough."

"You're just making a mountain out of a molehill."

"Five years of molehills. They add up."

"I didn't know Doug meant this much to you."

"I'm not talking about Doug, this is about you."

Talking to the small group of guests that gathered at the scene, she then adds:

"She asked me for another chance, I gave it to her. I trusted her. Biggest mistake I ever made."

Tell me those lines aren't the most married thing you've ever heard. I'm almost tempted to make a poll and ask people what they think about this quote; I'm sure at least a good 85% would assume this is being said by someone to their lover (or ex-lover, at least!).

Then the bride (because let's remember, this is all happening at a wedding) appears and likens the situation between Dorothy and Blanche to what's happening between her and the groom -- so we have a clear line drawn between Blanche/Dorothy and a committed romantic relationship. She calls Dorothy 'Aunt Dorothy', as is expected since Dorothy is her godmother, but she also calls Blanche 'Aunt Blanche', because... I don't know, there's no heterosexual explanation for it. Note that this girl invited Dorothy and Sophia to her wedding (no wonder: her godmother and her godmother's mother; they must be close) but she also invited Blanche and Rose, whom she technically has no relation to -- we have to assume they were invited because of their relation to Dorothy (she's possibly close to them too, considering she calls Blanche her 'aunt', but that's still due to their relation to Dorothy, of course). I mean -- would you invite your godmother's roommates to your wedding, as a general rule?

And!! After all this, the whole talking/not talking thing! Dorothy tells Jen:

"Jen, honey, I think you should go and talk to Joey. The best thing to do in any relationship is talk."

She says this right after she found an excuse to speak to Blanche in private and trapped her into a toilet because she wanted to talk:

"Listen, Blanche, we have to talk."

"Not now, Dorothy."

"Suit yourself."

"Dorothy, will you let me out of here?"

"No way, Blanche."

Once they turn to helping Jen and Blanche finally escapes the toilet, Dorothy is understandably upset and refuses to talk to her, and this makes Blanche very upset in turn. I'll let the dialogue speak for me on this one because there's no way I can say it any better:

"Dorothy, I wish you'd talk to me."

"..."

"I really do, 'cause what I need is a good talking-to."

"..."

"I don't care what you say, just so long as you care enough to say it."

"You stink."

"God bless you, Dorothy."

Yeah. Married. Blanche is so relieved and reassured once Dorothy starts talking to her again that she follows the conversation for just a little while after that (just as long as they're talking about Rose) and then immediately zones out again, because she's back in her comfort zone. Dorothy's talking to her! Dorothy forgave her! Everything's fine -- back to your regularly scheduled Blanche Devereaux™ content. (Note that she also pointedly does not dance with Doug after he comes back, even though he's from her A-list. This episode should have ended with a Blanche/Dorothy dance, if only to spite Doug.)

Rose is mostly busy dealing with her own thing in this one, but you all know I love the Golden Wives, so let me point out a couple of things:

Blanche and Dorothy (especially Dorothy) really do take care of Rose at the wedding! ... well, at the beginning of the party, at least. But they do genuinely try to reassure her! It's sweet! "Rose, honey, take it easy. Breathe deeply. It'll be all right." "Don't worry, honey. Nothing to worry about. We're here to look out for you." [...] "We're gonna have to keep an eye on her." "Hmm." We see her flirt with a couple of men during the party, but she only ends up going away with Doug and only while Dorothy and Blanche are having their little moment in the ladies' room, so it seems like they did keep her out of trouble after all! Until they got tangled up in their own thing, that is.

Right after they get out of the ladies' room (i.e., right after Dorothy tells Blanche 'I have nothing to say to you") Dorothy immediately notices that Rose isn't around, and talks to Blanche about it, despite the fact that she's supposedly not talking to her at all.

Blanche manages to keep her attention up as long as she and Dorothy worry about Rose, then gets immediately distracted by a man in the band. This exchange specifically is really touching to me: "Oh, I hope she can forgive us." "She will. That's what she does best." Just -- the complete certainty... my heart...

Blanche is really aggressive to Doug when he comes back! She was using every trick in her book to get him to act as her date earlier on, but as soon as she gets the hint that he took advantage of Rose, she immediately enters Protective Wife Mode™.

This line by Dorothy: "He must really be something." "So is Rose." This line? Said with the most affectionate smile in the world? Yeah. Yeah.

So anyway. I just spent like an hour and a half writing all this down, I love this episode, I adore these ladies and I am going to scream, thank you, goodbye.

#this is very messy and unplanned but i just saw the episode and i couldn't keep it to myself #and all this without speaking of the jokes!!!#'i'm going to write on this wall - for a good time call dorothy zbornak.' 'blanche - this is the ladies' room!' 'RIGHT'#'you don't look after me when *i* get hot!' 'that's because i also have a day job!'#AGH i just. i love them sm!!!!#this is one of those episodes where you really Get how important they are to each other. this is all from a romantic pov #but it's true from a platonic pov as well of course. they're such a close unit that jen calls them all 'aunt'#even though only dorothy is her godmother -- and she obviously became her godmother long before she began to live with the girls #sure. they like to have dates for this kind of event. but in the same way one might rent a nice suit for this kind of event!#the important relationship is the one between them! you know?#sophia's b-plot in this one is also a lot of fun lmao i love it #cursing someone to have their socks constantly slide down their shoes is *evil*#so yeah. 10/10 episode!!! a big favourite!!#the golden girls #golden wives

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amethystina · 5 months

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Strangers From Hell fans, I have a question

So. I've so far only written one fic for the fandom but I do have an idea for a second one. My problem is that a couple of weeks after I had come up with it, I found that someone had already written a very similar fic (that I ended up reading).

The basic premise is an AU where Moon Jo ran away from Mrs. Eom's orphanage and maybe isn't quite as unhinged as he is in canon. I mean, he's still Moon Jo, obviously, so he won't necessarily be good, but it would explore the whole "nature vs. nurture" thing, and see where someone like him might end up if he got away from a person who was clearly a bad influence on him.

So my question is if you all think it's too specific of a concept for me to write about, too? Or can I get away with saying it's my take on the same idea? Or should I link to the other fic (which I admit I don't have on hand right now but can no doubt find again) and explain that we just happened to come up with the same concept, but I'm not trying to copy them?

I suspect that the stories will hit a couple of the same beats but, from what I remember, there will still be quite a few differences. If nothing else because of different writing styles, characterisation, etc.

What do you think?

#Strangers From Hell #MJJW #Amethystina Writes #Or technically not I suppose #I'm trying to figure out if I should xD #Because a part of me wants to #But I don't want to make it seem like I'm stealing someone else's idea #I'm just REALLY fascinated by the thought of writing a Moon Jo who developed outside of Mrs. Eom's influence #I admit that the story would be less bloody than Until Death Do Us Unite #Well #I mean #There would still be murders #But not quite as many? xD #Tbh I might still end up writing it #Just for fun #So I guess the real question is if I should POST it #So yeah #Please let me know what you think!

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necrotic-nephilim · 16 days

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do you ship helena bertinelli with anyone? if yes, then which characters and why? what's your favorite helena ship? do you have any helena rarepairs? (i know you've talked about helena/steph and you're so right about it, it's a very interesting ship)

!!!! i have so many ships for my best girl ever yes oh my god thank you for asking.

my top pairing is probably Vic Sage/the Question. Vic is the basic answer, but man. i love them so much. no couple has matched each other's freak like that have. Justice League Unlimited is a great adaptation of Helena in general, but it also did a great adaptation of Helena and Vic's relationship. how he just dedicates himself to helping her with no expected return, but also wants to make sure she doesn't go too far in a hunt for vengeance that never ends for her. i think a lot of characters often want to change Helena or expect things out of her for their own needs, like the Batfam and the BoP. but Vic is one of the few people who just wants her to be better for her own good. when he tries to stop her from killing it's not because of his morals, it's because he doesn't want this crusade to consume her. and i just. man i think about them a lot. Helena rlly likes weird little men who give themselves wholly to her.

Zinda Blake/Lady Blackhawk is also a top ship for me. tbh i just like Zinda. but i do love how Helena and Zinda interact, being the more rough and tumble members of the BoP. they're both outsiders, in different ways. Helena is an outsider of the Batfam and Zinda is literally from a different time and an outsider to the current world. their friendship is so genuine and i think if Babs and Dinah can have. whatever homoerotic nonsense going on during BoP, then Zinda and Helena deserve some homoerotic nonsense too. as a treat.

if we're willing to count New-52 Helena, then i enjoy Helena/Dick/Tiger. i think Helena and Dick being a past relationship is really important in pre-Flashpoint for Helena's development, though i don't ship them as a serious couple beyond a fling. but in the New-52, i think this throuple be fun. Helena and Tiger respect each other as two very driven, no-nonsense agents and then well. they both clearly have some kind of thing for Dick. so it's fun finding the balance of how they could all work together romantically.

and ofc. it's a crime to mention Helena ships and not mention Renee Montoya/the Question. every time they interact it's really fucking gay. it's so gay that Kate Kane, Renee's own ex, assumed Helena and Renee were gay. i cannot be convinced against this ship. i genuinely think this ship should be canon. i mean. DC did tease us with this moment from an alternate universe and it's lived rent for me since. fucking criminal for us to only get one panel of what we could have if DC let Helena be a fruit in the main universe. being in love with Helena Bertinelli should be a right of passage for the Question mantle, i personally believe. if you asked me like. genuinely who i want to see Helena date in the current comics, Renee is my top pick. (i would say Vic but he's fucking dead and the New-52 butchered him so rip my mans-)

lois lane (2019) #10

besides those ships, just about every ship for Helena probably falls into the category of rarepair. like you said i've talked about my love for Helena/Steph before bc god. i think it should be a thing more people ship. once i finish the fic i'm writing about them i will convince others to like it.

i also think Helena/Cass could be fun. in a *lot* of ways Helena and Cass are narrative parallels to each other. Helena was a victim of her family being murdered at about the same age Cass was forced to be a murderer. Helena grows up to believe in lethal justice because of this, and Cass grows up to be staunchly against it. Cass' Batgirl suit was made *by* Helena. they both want to be protectors of the most vulnerable people. they balance each other out in a lot of ways and i think they should kiss about it.

also probably a rarepair, i think Helena/Lady Shiva is fun. their fight during Birds of Prey (2010) had... questionable moments for Helena's characterization, but i do love so much that Helena knocks Shiva off her feet and gains a deep respect from Shiva. like. Shiva gives her a nickname and shows her admiration. i would like to see fanfic where Shiva continues to be weirdly admirable of Helena and bothering her non-stop. they could be a fun fucked up toxic yuri moment. this is just. so gay to me.

birds of prey (2010) #6

my most rare Helena pair would probably be Helena Wayne, actually. but specifically Helena Wayne of JSA (2022). ever since, for some reason, it was made canon that the current Helena Wayne was named after Helena Bertinelli and took the name Huntress to honor her i *cannot* stop thinking about them meeting. because in-universe it makes *no* fucking sense for Bruce to name his kid after *Helena Bertinelli*, someone he's regularly at odds with and doesn't like. it's clearly an awkward explanation to try to make the whole two Huntress situation make sense. (it's almost as bad as Helena Wayne in the New-52 using Helena Bertinelli as an alias.) but because it's such an odd choice, i do think it could be fun for Helena Wayne, when she's back in time to see Bruce, to find Helena Bertinelli to get to know the woman she was named after and Helena Bertinelli just being. baffled by the idea of *Batman* naming his kid after her. it could be a fun fucked up moment.

my other super rarepair is Kara Zor-L/Power Girl. they had like. one meaningful interaction of JSA Classified and it's been PLAGUING me. something about when Power Girl doesn't remember her past and she's seeking a friend, she instinctively goes to find Huntress? but it's wrong bc this isn't *her* Huntress and neither of them understand why Power Girl would seek Helena out? god it's so good. i'm always a big fan of ships where one person in the ship is *so* obviously using the other person as a replacement for someone they lost and they both know it. it's such a doomed angsty thing where you could play with Helena actually really liking Kara, but knowing that she's just a replacement for Kara's Helena Wayne. good fucked up shit man.

and lastly: i really ship her with Dawn Granger/Dove. there's no canon basis for this, they didn't have a ton of interactions even when they were both on the BoP. but there's a very kind innocence to Dawn that contrasts Helena's violence really well. and i do love a ship with a corruption kink vibe to it. let Helena corrupt Dawn. i could write such fucked up porn about these two.

#necrotic answerings #helena bertinelli #idk the ship names for most of these ships so idk how to tag them #most of them are too rare to have ship names. tragic.#anyway i ship her with so many ppl #i do ship her with tim as well but i didn't mention him just bc i default to viewing them platonically.#also think babs is a valid ship for her. but in a hatefucking way.#i prefer their relationship when they can't stand each other it's more fun.#but yeah the realistic “i want to see this in canon” options are vic and renee #and then the rest are “i'm alone in this ship but i see potential” rarepairs #esp lady shiva. like i'm *really* tempted to write that fic.#i just need to read more comics with shiva.#actually the most fucked up option: cass/helena/shiva incestual threesome.#that has potential. but i don't think anyone shares my vision #also i've seen posts arguing for helena/jason #and while. longterm i disagree. i do think them sleeping together is on the table.#but largely ppl always bringing him up when talking about her sours me to that ship. so eh.#also i would ship helena/bruce in a fucked up way if that one batman: the brave & the bold episode didn't piss me off so bad #justice league unlimited is the *only* good adaptation of helena i'm so serious.#everything else eats ass with her. esp the arrowverse.#and the birds of prey movie.#but jlu does good by her and if you just watch that show you do have a solid grasp of her character #it adapts her story into a child-friendly medium in what i think is the best way it could've #anywhore thank you for this ask <3 #you actually sent this when something rlly shitty happened so it was a nice little distraction from life to think about my answer #OH WAIT YOU KNOW WHO I FORGOT.#kate spencer. manhunter. I ship her with helena too.#lethal female vigilantes unite.#BRO those two deserve a teamup mini or something. they'd click so well.#dc hire me to write a huntress/manhunter mini series i promise i won't make them gay (my fingers are crossed)

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