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fuckedupheadtotail · 11 months

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Survey results

First of all, I'd like to thank all 37 people who took this survey for trusting me with such sensitive information, I take this trust very seriously and my lips remain sealed.

To clarify things, I'd like to explain why I use the word interest in survey questions. Some people would call it their kink, some their fetish, and some neither (but still think it's of a kink- or fetish-aligned nature), and just defaulting to calling it an interest just made sentences flow more smoothly than just going "kink/fetish/whatever you'd call it" ad nauseam.

In the questions with freeform answers, my commentary will be in red to distinguish from quoted survey answers

Q1: What is your gender identity?

I expected this, as well as the two following questions, to mostly line up with general tumblr demographics, which they for the most part did, but with some exceptions. The largest demographic here was cis women (41%), followed by unaligned non-binary (24%), cis men (16%) trans men or transmasculines (14%) and others (6%). I was expecting slightly more trans men & mascs and I certainly expected a handful of trans women & fems but other than that this checks out. Additionally, the cis to non-cis ratio is 57% cis and 43% non-cis.

Q2: What is your sexuality?

The largest demographic here was bisexuals (30%), followed by straights (22%), asexuals (19%), pansexuals (16%), tie between gay and lesbian (5% each) and others (3%). Surprised with the number of straights, especially since all straight respondents were also cis - certainly more cishets than I would expect. This isn't a bad thing of course.

Q3: Where do you live?

78% of respondents were from North America, 14% from Europe, 5% from South America and 3% from Oceania. No respondents from Africa or Asia. This lines up with what I expected, except that I did expect more from Oceania.

Q4: At which age did you discover or realize your interest?

This was a very even distribution trending toward younger ages. 35% responded tweenhood (8-12), 27% early childhood (7 or under) and 24% it's been with me for as long as I can remember. 8% responded adolescence (13-17) and 5% adulthood (18 and over).

Q5: Which of the following options would you say factor into your interest?

The four options I had here are things I personally default to when an outsider asks me why I'm into this. 36% responded vulnerability, 33% intimacy, 14% shame and 13% taboo. The respondents who chose other responded embarassment, control/dominance and the noise itself.

Q6: If you'd like, elaborate on the appeal you personally see with your interest

"I don’t consciously see an appeal, other than it’s cute sometimes? I do have a thing for vulnerability to be fair so that’s probably the main factor."

"The vulnerability of knowing that you're hungry bc your belly is rumbling. Also just love to lift up my top and let my tummy growl whilst I'm alone and in bed lol"

"desperation. an aftercare aspect is also important"

"Just the concept of your body having its own alert system telling you when something is or isn’t inside it is really cute to me, plus I’m a sucker for ‘unusual’ things causing people physical arousal, and the idea of a belly rumbling giving someone that feeling is very nice"

"Always thought bellies were cute, liked to role-playing stomach issues as a kid and wrote sic fics as a preteen. Still into that stuff - primarily as hurt/comfort- but also became about it sexually. Stomach noises aren't my main but I like them as an indicator of discomfort."

"The sound, especially when it's persistent and loud (which is why hunger works so well). The feel of it growling against my or someone else's hand or body. The empty feeling right before it growls"

"90% of the time for me, I only enjoy this kink in more soft and fluffy scenarios. Torture and stuff like that is too intense for me personally, but I will occaaaasionally dabble in whump. Hurt/comfort with hunger is my favorite thing ever. Teasing and embarrassment are a big part of it for me, not sure why. Personal fave scenario is when it involves typically stoic and/or prideful characters. Takes 'em down a peg to have such a basic human need to embarrass them."

"The last one said vulnerability and I very much agree with that. But it's hunger it's soooo hunger"

"Noises and various round/roundish stomach shapes. Calming to hear"

"I just really like the noises, and how unique they all are :)"

"I enjoy the variety of sounds a stomach can make, though my main interest lies in hunger sounds. I love the different reactions stomach growls can get out of the people who hear/experience them, from embarrassment, shame, arousal, and even disgust (in the case of someone being degraded for the sounds their stomach makes). A major appeal for me is that it’s something the body does on its own, completely outside of your control. You may be the most composed businessperson but you’re never safe from the embarrassment of a growling stomach in the middle of a conference. I enjoy how stomach sounds can sound hollow and sad, or loud, or borderline cartoony. Personifying the stomach by describing its sounds as representing emotions is also enjoyable to me."

"It's honestly very hard to explain. I just like it a lot and I'm not too sure why. I definitely like the fact that people will feel embarrassed and try to hide it. I also like when people act stoic and try to pretend that nothing is happening x3"

"Just feeling the rumbles themselves always feels so exhilarating and sensual. I want to share that kind of fun and intimacy with someone with the same kink or someone who would be willing to indulge irl someday."

Q7: If you can clearly pinpoint a single moment that awakened your interest, which of the following best describes it?

72% responded media exposure, and 8% each on trauma and non-traumatic real life experience. The respondents in the other category were primarily concerning having no clear memory.

Q8: If you'd like, elaborate on this awakening moment

"It was always cartoon characters stomach growling when I first discovered this kink"

"I found a post on IsItNormal asking about the interest, which is what made me realize that it was something I was into."

"Courage the cowardly dog, flan episode"

"The interest had already been culminating ever since I was young through stomach growling scenes from various shows but one of the ones that really sealed it for me was an episode from Hannah Montana where Miley sneaks out and her friends Lily and Oliver pretend to be her through the door when the dad asks what’s up. All of a sudden a super loud growl emitted from Oliver’s tummy and he whispered in a panic to Lily that he hadn’t eaten all day. I definitely remember feeling quite hot and flustered during the whole thing."

"I liked the idea of stomachaches even younger but around 10-11 I read a lot of young adult novels centered around illness ? So not an awakening bc I already knew to choose those books. I also read the part of Stephen King's It where Ritchie pukes until the page fell out."

"Thinking it was "weird" and being in denial most of my life, then embracing it"

"I was watching cartoons with a family member. A character’s stomach growled onscreen, and I immediately felt embarrassed and hot in the face, almost uncomfortable. I got squirmy and felt the need to leave the room."

"It had to be when I was 3-5? Because I was watching Wonder Pets. There was an episode where they were by a geyser and it was about to go off and Tuck the Turtle said something about thinking it was his stomach growling. Or maybe the other guys said "hey was that you" I don't know. But I thought about that so much afterwards and then it bled into every child interest I had. I was embarrassed by it even though I didn't see it as taboo, it just felt really personal to me"

"I don't think I had a particular awakening moment, but I do remember several times when watching TV with my family, how I'd get really embarrassed whenever a character's stomach growled. I remember one specific time where I saw the title screen for an episode quite literally about stomach growling, which I had already seen, and I had to physically leave the room bc I knew I could not handle it lmao (side note the episode in question was like. good god man. tbh I refuse to believe that not a single writer for that episode didn't also have this fetish bc it was so over the top and in your face. [If anyone's curious the episode is Rabbid Tummy Rumble from Rabbids Invasion. Shit was wild.])"

"I think it was when I joined the internet and I saw other people engaging in similar topics to what I was interested in, and when I found out they were doing it because of a ‘fetish’, I was like “Whoaaa I didn’t know I had that.”"

"I don't remember the exact moment, but I remember watching a cartoon where a character's stomach growled multiple times in a scene, and I was ENAMORED. I kept rewinding the scene back and back to listen to the character's stomach :)"

"I was in 2nd grade when I first became exposed to vore content through Youtube. Even at the time, I knew there was something about it that appealed to me, but I didn't know what exactly it was until I was older. I realized that me discovering those videos ended up leading me down a rabbit hole where I also discovered that it wasn't just vore I was into, but rather bellies in general. I still feel shameful about it since I doubt I'd be into this kind of stuff had I not come across those videos, but I also feel that I've become more accepting of myself over this now that I am an adult. Looking back on it, I am also a little bit disappointed that it was Kphoria videos of all things that exposed me to this kind of stuff instead of something of better quality. I am also a bit mortified of the fact that my dad has caught my 2nd grade self watching those videos not long after I've discovered them. I just hope he doesn't remember that moment."

I'd say there's no right or wrong way to develop a kink or fetish, it's not like you can help it, so no need to beat yourself up about it.

"i wouldn't necessarily say it's a single moment so much as i experienced neglect growing up and the brain does strange things"

"Caught my siblings watching something they shouldnt have and got stuck watching it before I remember that it wasn’t appropriate for them. It was an animated vore video on YouTube."

"I think i can recall in very early childhood having a lot of weird feelings around this interest. Being very young and feeling like ‘hungry’ was a dirty word to say and things like that. Feeling kind of scandalized when something involving it would happen, the way I now feel as an adult if someone were to speak about sex way too casually. It was around when I was 12 that I saw a compilation on youtube of anime characters stomachs growling and that was when I realized my confusion around the subject was sexual in nature."

I can definitely relate to feeling weird and scandalized as a kid! I hear a lot of people say they as kids would always rewind kink-suggestive scenes to watch over and over but as for me, I wanted nothing to do with rumbling bellies, because they just made me feel a very strong emotion I could not understand (arousal) and being confused like that just made me angry.

Q9: Do you have any related interests?

41% of responses included hunger, 25% stuffing/feedism, 14% vore, 6% eructophilia, 5% eproctophilia and 10% others, including (most to least picked) emetophilia, cardiophilia and scat. Overall, 95% of respondents had at least one related interest.

Q10: If you have related interest(s), would you consider it a chicken-or-the-egg situation?

83% of respondents answered yes, with 50% saying their interest in stomach noises inspired them to develop their related interest(s) and 33% vice versa. 17% responded no, that they arose independently of one another.

Q11: Which cause(s) of stomach noises interest(s) you the most?

56% of responses included hunger, 27% digestion, 12% indigestion, 3% nausea and 1% no preference. I was surprised to see hunger be more popular than digestion, I was under the impression that it was the other way around given that a lot of YouTube content leans more digestion than hunger. Then again, this may be sampling bias at play since I did post the survey in the hunger kink tag.

Q12: How noisy is your own stomach?

49% of respondents answered only in certain circumstances (example: only if I'm hungry), 27% somewhat, 14% not at all :( and 11% very.

Q13: Do you have any bowel issues or food intolerances that manifest with a noisy belly?

This is a question I was particularily curious about because on the rare occasions I've seen kink negative people try to justify hating this interest in a way that makes them seem righteous about it, they'll often go for the angle of "fetishizing chronic illness". As a certified lead belly this has embedded some insecurities in me, namely that I'll meet a potential partner who happens to have a bowel issue and would feel fetishized should I divulge this part of myself, and if I fumble particularily badly that my ass will be spread wide open on r/relationships or r/AITA. I'm sorry if I just gave y'all a brand new fear. But I digress, I was curious if there were people in the community with pathologically noisy bellies who may or may not have this interest in part to cope.

62% of responses included no, 23% yes, bowel issue(s) and 15% yes, food intolerance(s).

Q14: If you have partner(s), do they know?

72% of respondents answered no, with the remainder tied between yes, they share my interest and yes, but they don't share my interest, at 14% each.

Q15: If your partner(s) know(s) but don't share your interest, how do they feel about it?

"he likes teasing me about it in a good-natured way. i am still processing too much shame to bring it up or be particularly responsive much"

"They like that I'm into it so he'll purposely make his belly noisy typically with digestion but sometimes hunger"

"Currently broken up, but when we dated we were actually both into the same things, they leaned more into the feederism side of things while I did more so the hunger. But we both enjoyed both overall, so it played a huge role in our intimacy"

"I'm single now but ex didn't mind and was happy that it could turn me on"

"I don’t have a partner at the moment but I like to imagine if I did then they’d be perfectly fine with it, but I wouldn’t mind if they didn’t indulge. I wouldn’t want to make them if they weren’t into it"

"This is my first time sharing this stuff w a partner (We met on Tumblr!) and it's a fucking dream. I never explicitly told exes. Most recent ex actually discovered my tumblr and was loud about his disgust but who knows if he would have acted differently had we been together at that time. (That ex was v normie and told me he didn't understand how anyone could get sexual satisfaction from anything non-sexual. How boring)"

I think you could have a partner indulge even if they weren't personally into it, many are prepared to indulge in things they don't necessarily like because just knowing it gets their partner off is enough reward for them. YMMV though, and obviously consent still matters.

Q16: Do you prefer to listen to somebody else's stomach, or to have your own stomach making noises?

46% of respondents answered no preference, 43% prefer noises from somebody else's stomach and 11% prefer to have my own stomach make noises.

Q17: How do you explore and manifest your interest?

I totally forgor to add an option for listening to belly recordings other people have uploaded, when I totally should've. Shout out to the people who added this through the "Other" option. 19% responded consuming fiction, 16% consuming art, 15% consuming prompts, then a tie between creating fiction and fasting at 11% each, then 28% other entries which include (most to least picked) creating art, recording my stomach, creating prompts, listening to partner's stomach and eating things my stomach tends to digest loudly.

Q18: How do you tend to react if you hear a stomach growling in public, or if it's mentioned in public?

"I feel a little embarrassed. I don’t tend to enjoy fiending over people unless I know it’s consensual- or rather if its in a context where people are aware that theyre being viewed in a sexual way, if that makes sense- but that isn’t to say I dont sometimes take inspiration from real life scenarios if they interest me. Usually if my body has a physical reaction to hearing someones stomach growl i feel a little ashamed."

"Embarrassed"

"Well the rational part of me takes over thank god. I usually will just stay silent to not embarrass whoever it was, but if it's bad for them I might tease them but probably suggest they eat or offer anything if I had it. I Will Not Lie I do find these situations very attractive though. In the back of my head I am not normal at all. Like I'll start tapping my fingers or shift in my seat probably."

"I try not to react; I'll sit there still faced and if someone addresses it in front of me, I'll kinda nod and laugh to clear up the tension."

"i ignore it as much as possible"

"If it's regarding someone else I just try to act as normal as possible while keeping a straight face. If it's regarding me, I'd easily get embarrassed about it and quickly try to change the subject."

"I'm good at hiding my kink, so I'm able to just ignore it."

"My body reacts involuntarily, I’ll squirm a little and sometimes get aroused because of it. I also get embarrassed, though I put effort into not showing any visible reaction. If it’s mentioned, I secretly wish the conversation would stay on the topic of it, so I could listen in."

"Would act like it was no big deal but internally trying not to over enthuse about the moment."

"It actually makes me uncomfortable because my brain is hardwired into thinking it's sexual."

"Immediate embarrassment. The same way a normal person would react if someone started talking about something sexual next to you. Like I know that to them its just 'omg my stomach was growling so loud today I'm starving ahah.' but to me its like your describing your last hookup like dude are you not ashamed?? why're you saying this so casually-"

"I usually get very flustered."

"Don't really respond or acknowledge it, but internally it depends. Usually it makes me uncomfortable when ppl mention it, oddly enough."

"Try to ignore it and might feel awkward/embarrassed but turned on and flustered if it's someone I'm attracted to"

"Interested/attentive to the details"

"Depends on the person. If it’s someone I know personally, especially relatives, I get uncomfortable. If it’s a person I barely know, I feel a mix of excitement and embarrassment"

I can definitely relate to feeling uncomfortable when it's relatives!

"Growling isn't my main thing but visible/obvious bellies get me"

"I'd probably blush and try not to get aroused by it >w<"

"I’d normally feel awkward and try to ignore it but if someone I was attracted to had their stomach growling or mention being hungry or whatever I’d secretly be really turned on."

"Silent on the outside but intrigued on the inside"

"I don't react. Weirdly, it's only hot when it's my belly rumbling whilst I'm alone. I think it's bc I've seen too many creepy comments from cis men sexualising other people's growling bellies without their knowledge e.g. a man talking about a "young lady" with a hungry tummy in the library and how he found it hot, but the poor thing was probably just trying to study and could have been embarrassed."

This was the main outlier in this question. I definitely understand feeling creeped out by cis men - no offense to the cis men who responded to this survey, y'all seem to have good heads on your shoulders - but my two cents is that hiring a cop inside your head about it isn't very productive, it won't stop the actual creeps and you'll just feel guilty over thought crimes. Maybe I feel this way because I see more of people swinging in the opposite direction - thinking the best way to combat fetish mining is to assume every kinky person is out to assault you if you happen to do something that turns them on. As I've put it in a post on my personal blog, it's beginning to approach "I don't mind gay people as long as they don't hit on ME ;)" territory with a dash of white woman human trafficking posting. I can't dictate how you personally feel of course, but I think it's important to emphasize that merely the act of getting a boner over a stranger isn't a moral failing.

Q19: How do you think your interest is viewed by outsiders, generally speaking?

46% of respondents answered unsure, 32% there's significant stigma, 16% split down the middle and 5% most people would accept it.

Q20: If you've experienced stigma over your interest, feel free to elaborate on what was said and how it made you feel

Before getting into the answers, I'm gonna drop one comment in particular I've seen a couple of times, namely that there was a very infamous murderer who appeared to harbor borborygmophilic desires. Even putting aside the fact that we all should understand that guilt by association is a logical fallacy by like, age 11, I do find it curious that this exact same person also seemed to hold cardiophilic desires, yet that's never mentioned when the topic of cardiophilia is brought up. I'm not saying this to gatekeep cardiophiles or whatever, you're awesome and I'm sure you have to deal with shit too, but it's curious when outsiders have this cognitive dissonance, the layman just has an easier time understanding the appeal and intimacy of listening to heartbeats because we put a lot of emphasis on the heart in many cultures, while the digestive system is considered more "unclean". I consider it similar to how hand fetish is usually seen as more "inoffensive" than foot fetish by outsiders.

"i don't tell anyone but i've seen people's disgusted comments on content"

"I'm not really sure? My besties know but after I told them I try to keep it downplayed as much as possible, especially since my main focus is hunger and that is such a normal every day thing. So it's a little awkward basically alienating one of my main needs as a human being and delegating it to some Weird Methods just to avoid saying the words "I'm hungry" but you know how it is"

"I have not personally experienced stigma due to this fetish but I have seen comments about it in a derogatory way, which has lead me to feel insecure at times (I understand most of the negative reaction comes from the more pushy side of the community but it still reaches the calmer side which is how I managed to see it)"

"I constantly hear how the feederism community is promoting obesity and how the hunger fetish community is promoting anorexia. I do get it in all honesty, theres obviously the people that take it too far sometimes, and I'm not for that. I honestly still struggle to be attracted to these things if its outside of fiction because my rational brain kicks in and I worry about their safety. I honestly see it as every kink has its dark side, but you just gotta know when too much is too much and if this part should just stay fiction. Like BDSM is a much more popular and accepted kink, and you could also argue that its promoting dark subjects, but if done right with safety in mind, its fine and great for everyone."

Yeah, it really grinds my gears when people assume hunger kink by default means starvation and disordered eating. Like grow up most of us just like "whoops I forgor to eat and now my tummy's bothering me about it" type of scenarios followed by a well deserved meal, and those who like more intense scenarios than that either keep it in fiction or take long breaks between play sessions and make sure to do adequate aftercare. If you can understand that people who like say, impact play, don't want to literally beat the shit out of people, they just want to inflict mild and fleeting pain to a partner who derives pleasure that by far outweighs the pain, you should be able to understand this too

"I think some people who do not understand the nature of how fetishes work may be quick to label this one as gross or degenerate. I also fear the stigma coming from the eating disorder community, and being misunderstood as supporting that kind of behavior."

"I've seen people call it weird online, never personally but that alone makes me feel ashamed"

"Not quite stigma, but my friend (the only person who knows about me being into this thing) sometimes teases me about it, but only bc I'm okay with it and they've never mentioned it around anyone else."

Q21: Pick a favorite onomatopoeia

This was mostly just for fun, but I was also curious if there were preference patterns between say, people who prefer hunger and people who prefer digestion. 30% of respondents answered growl, 16% rumble, 14% gurgle, then a tie between grumble and groan at 11% each and 19% other entries, including (most to least picked) howl, roar, whine, moan, churn and borborygmus. Squelch was an option but was not picked by anybody.

The strongest preference patterns I saw was the correlation between growl and hunger, rumble and hunger, rumble and digestion and gurgle and digestion.

Q22: Do you consent to your freeform answers being quoted in a summary of the results of this survey?

Just so we're on the same page, by freeform answers I mean answers to questions 6, 8, 15, 18, 20 and 23. I don't think the results of this question are super relevant to my analysis though.

Q23: Any closing thoughts?

"i feel like it's telling how stigmatized and shamed having any kind of kink is that i can barely even discuss it with my own partner who has no problem with it in private because i've internalized so much shame just from seeing how other people are treated"

"Sorry if I'm not exactly your demographic but this was fun"

"Hehe tummy go grr"

Co signed!

"Not entirely relevant, but I think I might be one of the only people to have both borborygmophilia but also emetophobia. Haven't heard of anyone else in the same situation, so I thought I'd mention it."

"This quiz felt very thought through and welcoming, and it was very interesting exploring my fetish outside of the little scenarios I make up in my head haha. Thank you for creating this, it was fun to do <3"

"I used to think my interest was a fetish, and theres a potential that it still is. Because I used to only be able to experience arousal when listening to stomach noises or imagining them. However I’ve found that in doing trauma processing in therapy, I am now able to experience arousal from ‘normal things’, like porn or erotic fiction (even if its vanilla). The arousal is not as strong, consistent or frequent as the arousal I experience due to my stomach kink, but it is real all the same.

I think it may also be worth noting that I noticed growing up that a lot of people on tumblr with the same interests as me (who were also fem, female or woman adjacent in any way) were lesbian and/or ace, but had a preference for male stomach noises over female stomach noises, myself included."

I feel really reluctant to share this ‘kink’ with anyone in my life, even including my partner, because I feel a lot of shame and like I’m weird for having this interest. As a result, I typically only ever want to read about fictional scenarios and have little to no interest of incorporating real life instances of my kink into my love life. I’m only just now beginning to consider telling my partner about it.

I haven't noticed the pattern of lesbian/ace women and fems, but that's interesting! Maybe it's a matter of trying to avoid objectifying women, similar to how some male musicians get homoerotic on stage seemingly as an outlet to be horny without objectifying women. Idk, I'm just spitballing here.

"This was honestly a pretty cool survey. Thank you for the opportunity! ^^"

"Thank you for this survey! It makes me feel less alone in my experiences when people openly discuss things like this that are normally considered taboo."

"I really appreciate you making this survey. I’ve always found it strange that other belly related kinks like vore and feederism are fairly well known (though are often made fun of) yet the stomach growling kink which goes hand in hand with the others is seemingly quite uncommon and under the radar. I can’t wait to see the final results and know the full scope of this community."

I think one reason we fly under the radar is because there's no widely used term. This is why I throw around borborygmophilia a lot, once it sticks maybe more people will realize this is a thing that exists, and in the meantime it's just a fun way for me to be pretentious and namedrop my vice while having it fly over the heads of most people.

#belly kink #hunger kink #stomach growling #belly noises #belly gurgles #tummy noises

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mus1g4 · 1 year

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Why does the fantasy of wearing stripes and being locked away in a cage make me hard when I know that if it were my reality I'd be fucking terrified?

Another great question!

I have had this interest since I was 14 years old. And, I and many of my friends who are also interested, have asked the same question. While I am NOT a psychologist, I have had a bit of therapy and just some good old-fashioned observations that I will share with you.

At Hampton Jail, we often laugh because the applicants (with notable exceptions) follow a similar demographic.

male, gay or bi, Caucasian or Asian, college degree (often post graduate), only or last child, small family, relative wealth, "big fish in a small pond", position of authority or control

Some of those factors can certainly be attributed to the cost of playing at Hampton, but it is almost 100% on target.

With that in mind, my therapist and I believe that the following has happened for most of us. We are constantly making decisions and choices without regard to being at work or at home. We feel responsible and are responsible to others. In an effort to "escape" that responsibility, we are attracted to an environment where the following happens:

the schedule is set for us in terms of meals, work, recreation and sleep

we make few choices about food, clothing, shelter or medical care

we crave (in the case of men) the hypermasculinity of a prison setting with the homosexual undertones

we are in an environment made up of the same sex and therefore understand each other better

there is very little competition the usual things. what competition exists would be perhaps for physique or influence (which many of us would eschew)

If you add in the development of a fetish surrounding some aspect of prison (restraints, uniforms, setting, or male on male interaction) then you have an answer.

Question about prison interests and erotic response

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paperstorm · 1 year

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I've read often how if I'm a woman and enjoy watching shows with gay male couples in them I'm fetishizing them. But I don't care about sexual components at all...? I'm an aro/ace woman, yes, but what drew me to couples like Tarlos was a meaningful relationship between two men - which I rarely get to see in real life AT ALL, whether platonic or romantic. I see women hugging, linking arms, talking about the "deep stuff", supporting one another - but never men. EVER. Am I still doing something bad?

I'm certainly not an authority on anything but I always try to think like ... am I harming a real life person by my actions? And if the answer is no, generally I think you're good. Fetishizing is a really complicated word because there's nothing on its face wrong at all with having a fetish. That literally just means you experience desire for something other than a sexual organ. Technically liking breasts is a fetish lol. It's such a broad term, and it's difficult to pinpoint the moment it turns into something bad. Probably, it's in the existence of a fetish causing you to reduce a real person's worth to only that thing that you find attractive. If you stop treating them like a human being and only value them as long as they are fulfilling your fantasies, that's bad. And it's hard to do that with characters because they do not exist. Are you finding gay couples in your real life and demanding they kiss in front of you? Are you telling real men it's hot if they kiss a boy but then advocating for the rolling back of LGBTQ rights? Are you making inappropriate sexual comments toward your gay colleague? Are you talking to him about your fictional ships in a way that loudly communicates you don't give a shit about these characters beyond how hot it is when they kiss? If not, you're probably fine. You can't hurt real people by having thoughts about fictional characters in your head.

#911ls asks

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juliusthedressmaker · 9 months

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Hi Julius! Too much I see people not respecting or acknowledging you're gay so to counter this I want to ask some things about your being gay /gen 🩷

how old were you when you found out you're gay? did you have any self denial or struggling accepting it? would you have come out of the closet earlier if you could have? when did you come out of the closet? did you have any boyfriends before Killian or ever have any other male sexual partners generally? was it difficult being married to Emily? what's one the biggest advice you have for gay teens who are in a similar position you were? and do you have any advice for queer people on the best way to come out?

Love you Julius!!! 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷

All questions I'm more than glad to answer ^w^ asks like these make me happy ♡◕u◕

I was 13 when I figured out I was attracted to men and realized I had no to attraction to women, I was 16 when I figured out I was without a doubt, a flaming faggot.

I wouldn't say I had trouble accepting it or ever in denial. I was more just annoyed at first because I knew just how much more difficult my life was about to become, you know?

As far as coming out, it's never been a big thing for me. I never officially did or didn't. Yes, I'm gay but there's more to me than just that - I don't like people who perceive me being gay as my entire identity and everything there is to know about me, you know? I feel very fetished often, I don't like that which is why I don't make much comments about my sexuality unless explicitly needed. I'm a man, who is attracted to men. What the fuck is the point of announcing it? Is it not clear enough when I kiss my husband on the cheek? Is it really that important or even necessarily anyone's business if I don't wish it to be? No.

Regarding partners other than Killian... before him, hm..none of them were wanted if you understand, you know? After Killian, I've had sex with a few other men, engaged in sex acts with a handful but unlike people often think, I'm generally very faithful and I'm honestly not a hoe as much as I joke about it. I had no relationships before Killian, other than the one I was faking with Emily. I did not kiss Emily until I was 17, after I had already kissed Killian.

Yeah, it sucked for a lot of reasons being married to Emily. She wasn't an awful person but I can't help resenting her - albeit I didn't murder her. I certainly took my anger out on her when I was alive as a human though, you know? It wasn't pretty. It wasn't happy, not ever for me and not after the first 9 months was it happy for her easier. But it was the 1890s and we were Irish Catholics in the community, in Boston. Women had no legal rights like they do today and divorce wasn't even a concept to us either.

For queer youth in unsafe spaces, my biggest advice is that it's better to stay in the closet until it's safe for you to come out. Advice for coming out, is to make it not a big thing. Casually mentioning it rather than a big announcement usually is going to go better and calmer.

:)<3

#julius the dressmaker #//rp blog #creepypasta roleplay #julius doherty #creepypasta fandom #rp blog

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bambi-kinos · 1 month

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i honestly wouldn’t care so much about omegaverse if people were just honest about how it’s a porn genre instead of insisting how it’s queer activism. especially on twitter there’s a weird group of people who think its the pinnacle of feminism to make men suffer through patriarchy but poorly thought out patriarchy and omegaverse sidelines women constantly (though i’ve seen fair share of female centric omegaverse but those don’t seem to push the activism view and feels more like it’s a porn genre, but the dog dick thing is still uncomfortable) another thing about the activism thing people push is about how omegaverse is actually really liberating for trans men or whatever as a blanket statement. don’t care if other trans men like omegaverse but i certainly don’t think omegaverse is reflective of the ftm experience. especially since all the characters are presumably cis in the stories even if they’re sometimes written with vaginas in universe it doesn’t matter! this is why the “if you dislike omegaverse you’re queer phobic” mindset drives me crazy. i’m sorry if this ask is really long i feel vindicated that other people find omegaverse a terrible genre ive disliked it for years, i can tolerate some stories but i can never take it seriously.

HAHA. Yeah this is a good summation of where I am at as well. The thing is omegaverse has always been up its own ass just a little, in Strange Aeons oral history of Dashcon someone at the con had made a presentation about omegaverse that said "omegaverse has six genders, here's what the six genders are" and it was about relating these fictional six genders to the IRL queer experience? Or at least that's how i interpreted it from the video. And the thing is this was almost at the very beginning of omegaverse as a trend and users were already trying to gentrify it into something that it isn't.

IMO omegaverse appeared at the same time that tumblr slacktivism was being heavily criticized. Don't know if anyone else remembers this but there was a viral tumblr post that had British protestors out with placards and signs and they were protesting in favor of gay marriage, and one of the signs said "let John and Sherlock get married." And the tumblr post absolutely exploded because people were mad (for good reason) that someone was bringing their fandom attitudes into IRL activism. And people were mad because gay marriage was something was desperately needed for legal protection and there was a lot of outrage that a fujoshi instead decided to make it about Johnlock, because that was the only way she could relate to gay marriage activism.

The problem though is that this viral post was like, a nuclear bomb in the tumblr consciousness. The website never recovered. That's where the idea of "minority representation" took off, because fujoshis were bullied and made to feel ashamed of liking gay ships and were accused of being "slacktivists" by writing fanfiction or whatever, even when we were not actually interested in doing activism. (I think some poor idiots tried to say that "writing slash fanfic means I'm fighting for gay rights" which got skewered.) So the idea of "representation" was dreamed up as a response to it, because no one likes being accused of being a ~fetishizer~. Saying "well actually me writing this fanfiction is good because I'm being Representational" was a way to politically justify your gay cocks rubbing together fetish. Tumblr was totally overrun with keyboard slacktivists screaming at and bullying each other over gay ships which made the "representation" and "fanfiction as queer activism" thing really take off. It was really just a way to avoid being bullied and in many ways it still is.

And while all of this was going on, omegaverse was born! So maybe in hindsight it did not stand a chance, no one wanted to admit that they just had a fetish for werewolves and noncon because that would get them bullied. Like I cannot stress enough that I was in Ground Zero for this shit so I remember when omegaverse fans were fielding accusations of "fapping to bestiality" and other horrible fucked and untrue things. So they were desperate, absolutely DESPERATE to put a respectable coat of paint on their porn so that Tumblr would stop bullying them for it. (There was a scat component to it as well but that wasn't as prominent as the bestiality themed noncon that came out of it. And I mean...both of those things are fine because it's fiction, so whatever, but it's not shocking that anything that was adjacent to those things would get pushback.)

In a way, fans did not have a choice except to pretend that the porn was actually Queer Empowerment and Feminist Empowerment and how it was Totally Liberating to read about men with dog dicks raping other men with anal fissures. They had to do it in order to protect themselves. This resulted in entire essays being written about how being anally impregnated by a guy with a dogdick who "ruts" like an animal is, like, suuuuuch a female experience you guiz!!!!!!! We gorls have all been there amirite!!!!! And if you didn't take that view and said "who is 'we' in this equation, you're not affiliated with me and I don't recognize these experiences" you received some online hate for Not Being With the Feminist Cause. In time that has metastasized and now there are omegaverse fans who, as you indicate, decided to start bullying other queer people people for not liking it.

(And you know, as I'm editing this, I'm realizing just how insanely transphobic that kind of stance was! Incredible erasure of trans people took place in those "why Omegaverse is the peak of feminism" essays.)

The lesbian omegaverse stuff is basically the purest form of it and hence it's the most tolerable. Yuri fiction gets so little attention anyway, yuri writers basically have carte blanche to do whatever they want. There's very little infighting in comparison to slash fandoms. Funnily enough when women are involved as characters no one wants to read about the Feminine Political Experience and no one cares enough to turn it into activism. It's only slash ships that get that projection and its 100% due to the "oh shit we need to pretend this is Representation so that we don't get bullied for having a fetish" deal. (This has since spread into most aspects of fandom and even IRL discourse! Do what you will with that information.)

Massive +1 to your note about how it affects queer people. I can't imagine what it's like to be a transman and be told "umm ackchually sweaty being impregnated with a dog cock is the HEIGHT of the transman experience and if you don't like it then you can get out." When I was weirded out by the book I cataloged that was an omegaverse romance, one of the rhetorical lines that got flung at me was "straight people aren't going to like you!!! they're always going to hate you!!!! you're never going to not be disgusting to them!!! you have to like it or else you're a bad queer person!!!" Because I had said that I found the material grotesque and I didn't like it being marketed as "LGBT fiction."

But that was never the point, the point was that I, a queer person, do not want this material anywhere near me. Like, why would I want to be associated with bestiality, even if it's fantasy bestiality? This ain't about the cishetties, this is about me, how I feel. I don't want to be told that it's inherently queer fiction and queer romance, because why would I want dog penises and the captivating aroma of poopy buttholes (sorry, "slick") to be associated with my queerness and my sexuality?

But those are the wages of omegaverse being born in the times that it was born in. It's most likely permanently baked into the structure, even when people are just wilding out with their Ids and going "oh teehee I forgot to take my suppressants and now my reproductive anal glands need to be expressed." You are still going to get the "my werewolf themed fanfiction is ACTIVISM, we are HERE we're QUEER and you need to GET OVER IT" even when you yourself are queer and have been persecuted for it in the past. Either jump on the dogdick carousal or you're queerphobic.

I should underline that I understand that this is quite literally a Not All Fans Situation and imo most users in fandom try not to get on each other's cases so much about our preferences. The problem is that omegaverse has been a vehicle for buckwild levels of cope, junk science, SJW themed bullying, and superiority complexes because there are a plurality of fans that are trying to gentrify weird porn. And that's the sticking point in all of this especially if you're someone who doesn't like it and want to stay away from it.

#omegaverse #i guess? i'm not sure if i should be using the tag but idk what else to do #long post #talktalktalk #tumblr #tumblr history #fandom activism

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heymantakemycruiser · 2 years

Text

A little explanation

TW: R4pe, abuse, p3dophilia, in3st

Okay so I know some people have probably gotten caught up in that you might have heard of a webtoon called “Boyfriends” and I’m SURE you’re probably seeing slander everywhere, and if you don’t already know, I’m sure you’re wondering why.

Well, this post is basically an explanation of the things Refrainbrow (I will be calling them Ray for this post)

Okay so the first thing wrong here is Ray back in 2013 (correct me if I’m wrong) said the n slur, which of course is not okay, but I he was a minor and when he got older, he claimed he didn’t know any better. I can believe this for the most part because we all do dumb shit when we’re kids, especially back in the pro ana Tumblr days. Nevertheless, it was still wrong. But if he had owned up to it and actually apologized, this wouldn’t be that big of a deal... but it gets worse.

He also drew p0rn of a BTS member when that member was 17, let alone the fact that he wasn’t comfortable with that sort of thing, so this is considered CP, even though Ray was also a child at the time, it’s still CP. Let alone an invasion of personal privacy.

And another thing is the character Nerd in the comic is a proshipper, which if you don’t know what that means, it’s someone who will ship illegal/abusive/unhealthy relationships, such as incest, statutory r4pe (underage sexual relationships), or normalizes abusive relationships. And supposedly, the Nerd character is a self-insert of the creator, Ray.

He also disrespects countries, such as posting something along the lines of saying “indonegy” which is really disrespectful, especially considering I don’t believe in anyway is he Indonesian.

The webtoon is extremely fetishizing towards LGBTQ+ and poly relationships, as reading a few of the comics myself... I can most certainly confirm. It gives off horny anime comic vibes, and all it does is sexualize gay men who are barely of age in college. There is no real plot other than they’re poly and they’re gay, which is okay of course, but this comic stereotypes MLM and poly relationships by making it seem like they constantly want to have sex with each other and adding things into it about poly relationships which I have read from people who have been in polys that those things aren’t really truthful, therefore creating a stereotype.

There has also been something about him disrespecting a religion, but unfortunately, I don’t know much about this.

So yes, I was bored and decided to write this out for everyone. If someone says they watch/support Boyfriends, it’s likely safe to say you don’t need to be around them or interact with them anymore.

#boyfriends #refrainbrow #boyfriends slander

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catspittle · 1 year

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And so it is time for The Post. A somewhat disjointed metaanalysis of the author's Floyd Lawton and Jonathan Crane interpretations re. their interactions with women. [sexual assault tw]

Let's get the great big elephant in the room out of the way, because I can never just say something and then let it be. My version of Deadshot is a CSA survivor. Scarecrow likely is too, knowing the reality of growing up Asian in America, but he certainly doesn't remember anything beyond vague flashes that he's never quite sure are real or not. Still, Crane has been assaulted plenty later in life, leading to his lower jaw borderline disintegrating. Specifically, Floyd's mother and grandmother sexually abused him, however briefly the latter was in his life. There was quite a bit of emotional abuse going on as well, which is...to be expected, really. Crane mostly just remembers Mingzhu's snide commentary, as well as being forced to strip and critiqued for his body; or, at least that's what he claims publicly. They "do not" get flashbacks, they remember bad things vividly and with a great deal of apathy. They've both been seen as nothing but meat, and I honestly think they both hate that when they have the mind to be vaguely rational about it. During particularly bad episodes they're a little more self-destructive than usual, though the difference is neglible for the most part. Floyd absolutely becomes a reckless driver, though. +while my interpretation of Floyd does not "pass" wholly as a pacific islander, AAPI fetishization is real and unlike Floyd, Crane cannot obscure or escape his identity. They are used to being objectified, and I'd personally say it's reasonable both are wary around women. Floyd just does not show this publicly, though both men will occasionally make unsolicited and potentially objectifying comments in much the same manner as they've been objectified. Note that they do not hate women, it's just harder for them to form deeper relationships with women. Also, Crane is gay how I write him; it's difficult to say whether or not he would have been bi/pansexual if what had happened to him didn't happen, as he does have a very fulfilling QPP with my friend Vio's version of Katana [Tatsu Toro]. Which honestly is a damned miracle, the guy is neutral towards any woman at best and at worst can get physically violent.

#sa tw #sa mention #fuck you and you and you and y - musings #[reblogs will be turned off in a bit as this is going on my Floyd blog too]#[also do not bother the mun it's grandma was a piece of shit too]

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violexides · 2 years

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to take a more... calm stance on this, i think there are a lot of double standards within the queer community that is largely caused by people becoming so invested within their own personal experiences that they cannot conceptualize the experiences of other people within their community. further i think a natural consequence of forming a community surrounding an aspect of one’s identity that some may argue was inherent to them is that we create a community where certain experiences (Western ones) are centered and other experiences (literally anywhere else) are forgotten-- this is seen in the overriding of certain terms, gatekeeping, etc.

the reason i have stood as a radical inclusionist and will continue to align myself there is because a lot of exclusionist efforts come from this attempt to either advance the queer community in one way or reduce the problematic aspects of it, but... who are you leaving behind with this? our ancestors, definitely, but more readily forgotten are people literally from anywhere except America and Britain. like. the idea that we are starting these mass discourses over just the terminology when those specific terms aren’t even existent in other language, centering the concept of labels over people’s experiences... how do you expect that to translate? how do you expect that to stand historically?

and to kind of loop back to the former point, something that i have been raging about for a while (and why i am trying to make this more comprehensive) is the fact that people will talk about the experiences with misandry that queer men have in this community, and then imply within their definition of in-group misandry that queer women are the oppressors. and then queer women will talk about THEIR experiences with misogyny, and then in that casually throw out there that they think gay men benefit under the patriarchy which... isn’t? how the patriarchy works? (more on this later)

like, several facts can coexist. here are a few statements that are all true and very evident within online spaces especially, as that is my audience here, but also throughout the queer community as a whole:

lesbians who speak about lesbophobia are frequently & automatically assumed to be trans-exclusionary or misandrists, and therefore have their voices spoken over. masculine, or amab, nonbinary people are excluded from nonbinary spaces and seen as a threat. sapphic women (espec butches) are disallowed from speaking sexually about other women as they are then deemed by this to be feeding into the sexualization of women under the patriarchy. gay men are told they are disgusting and perverted for having sexual fantasies about men that veer towards the side of fetish, and thus ostracized.

these are things that coexist and as a lesbian specifically, i will speak to the fact that recognizing (and being enraged, because i often am) about the misogyny that gay men exhibit within the queer community... doesn’t override the experiences that gay men have when being told their attraction to men is something ‘unfortunate’. (side note: i keep mentioning the patriarchy as something queer men cannot benefit from, which i recognize is somewhat controversial of a take. however, the patriarchy is a system of oppression and not something that inherently champions all men. examples of other people who suffer deeply under the patriarchy, aside from women-- who are the most direct victims, certainly-- include BIPOC men and disabled men. and yes, queer men).

i could talk about this for a long time but i do genuinely think that the queer community lacks a lot of compassion for the experiences of others. and further i think that the online aspect of the queer community creates some of these difficulties, because some of these experiences are reduced when being actively surrounded by other queer people in real life-- but that is not always a direct possibility for people, especially right now, so it’s still important to consider the issues of the internet community and address them*. also, i think that in some respects the queer community was a little doomed when we began to create these community-wide discourses, because if you look at the people dominating these conversations, it is typically young white people from the US or from Western Europe, and it overrides a lot of the history that other groups have (ex. queer people are downright expected to know about Stonewall. how many of you know the names of any queer activists in South America btw?)

this isn’t really meant to make people believe in anything in particular. do what you want and i ultimately cannot do much with a somewhat inarticulate and inconclusive post about the subject. i just think it’s important that people know that their experiences, and their identity, are valid and EXTREMELY important. and in that means that the experiences of others, especially people who speak different languages, or people who identify with a different gender, or people who use terms you deem ‘offensive’ -- are important, too.

TLDR the queer community is all about fighting for our rights and protest but we keep mistaking innocuous queer people who commit the ‘cardinal sin’ of like, not being white anglophones who have your exact identity, as cops.

*when it comes to activism, which i do not claim that this post is, it is significantly more important to consider the real world implications of these discourses and see how this touches the real life communities first and foremost. again i am just talking in a specifically online lens because there is only so much that i can convey on a tumblr post and the entire reason i was making this was because i got angry about misogyny towards lesbians and couldn’t find any posts that encapsulated that sentiment without also leaning into misandry.

#ides.txt #okay to reblog. i am being so fucking brave and i am GOING to get eaten alive #i talked about this with one of my friends like two years ago and i never stopped thinking about it

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quibbs126 · 2 years

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The thing about Joshua David King was that he was speaking out on a term that is used by people (straight women) who fetishize gay men (cuz y'know a gay man speaking up about a problematic situation is certainly considered a travesty by Twitter terms) and people are being nasty for a legit concern he is expressing. Basically Twitter being freaking Twitter as always.

Okay, I’m getting two answers here, one where he’s in the wrong and one where it’s just Twitter overreacting. Which is right?

#I feel like on some level I should stop asking #before I get dragged into any sort of mess here #I just want to understand #I don’t really know how Twitter works but I guess I just have to go there and see for myself?#cookie run #joshua david king #answers #random stuff

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olderthannetfic · 1 year

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You might get a kick out of this article someone linked me to, to try and argue that BL is in fact fetishizing (because Yada Yada women consume it and produce it and all that)

https://www.youthoutright.org/articles/fetishization-of-the-queer-community

Article is a fairly short read. But I have to chuckle at it as "evidence" since it makes a fair amount of claims with 0 sources:

That young teenage women make up a majority of fandom (and that's whose consuming/producing BL)

Straight, white women get paid more to write gay romance novels (and that these novels often feature Adonis like males with 0% body fat and no body hair; play into gender/hetero norms)

Etc.

Honestly the....article, if I can even call it that, isn't cohesive. I do find myself agreeing with its first two paragraphs...and surprisingly only the first two. However, this article spends a lot of its time focusing on fetishization of Trans bodies and chasers who go after transfolks bodies (which I'm not too familiar with this so if anyone wants to speak up on this point...)

I'm very confused by how someone could read this and think "this proves my point!"

Sigh.

I don't even agree with the beginning. Trashy "girl-on-girl" isn't what's making men think women exist to serve them. Society is doing that. Porn is a reflection, not a cause.

Not to mention the fact that f/f-for-dudes is astronomically common compared to shitheads pestering lesbians in bars. The latter are too common because the correct amount is 0, but just based on the numbers, a lot of dudes are capable of consuming this porn without being confused about what's fiction and what's reality.

The mass quantities of f/f-for-dudes do make it hard to find f/f-for-ladies, but this article has taken the wrong message from that. The correct takeaway is that we need better labeling and search features that are driven by the nerdy desire to categorize and not by algorithms that want to sell you stuff.

As long as het romance novels or porno movies for straight guys or bestselling thrillers or whatever are popular, they're going to drown out the algorithmic results for more niche things one is interested in.

Libraries and AO3 don't have this problem. Amazon and Youtube do.

the world of “slash fiction” (fanfiction portraying a romantic and often sexual relationship between characters from a given source) began centering gay men

Wow, article writer. So you know nothing then.

it’s been claimed that straight, white women are paid more than gay men by publishers to write gay romances

I'm honestly embarrassed for this article writer. First, most of this burgeoning field is selfpub anyway. Second, many established writers in the romance field are women, and established names will probably have a shot at better pay than new people.

Third, anyone who injects "white" like this is a moron and a wanker. If we're talking about racism in the Romance field (and boy howdy is there a lot), white gay men are no better, and men's race is just as relevant as women's. Either we're talking about race or we're not.

As it stands, this author just comes across as a misogynist piece of shit.

The overwhelming majority of these romances portray relationships between white, cis, abled men with no fat or body hair.

I have bad news for them about cis gay men's media. (Well, okay, some of that has a lot of body hair and interminable descriptions of the smell of ball sweat and stinky armpits, but still...)

Men who fit the first archetype will take the position of “top” in the numerous, inaccurate, graphic-as-possible sex scenes that are central to these stories and also appear to be central to many readers’ enjoyment.

I see we're in the usual "I, a sex-repulsed person, speak for all of humanity" mode.

People like horny art. News at 11.

These are complex issues deeply rooted in society. It’s difficult to envision mitigations and solutions. However, somewhere to begin would certainly be promoting more positive, intersectional, realistic representations of queer people and queer relationships. A vital action that can further this goal is choosing to consume media with queer representation that was created by queer people whenever possible.

Honestly, my response to this ending is:

Fuck off, you entitled git.

This uninformed little whiner is equating all kinds of unequal things. Chasers are all over the place, but they aren't the ones writing fanfic or any other amateur, personal writing. We have no right to other people's hobby time. Sure, we can vote with our feet, and we should, but this article doesn't really sound like it's advocating that: it sounds like it's crying that other people have different taste from the writer. Boo, hoo, hoo, someone I don't like got attention.

It's the usual ignorant trash.

Embarrassing.

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c0rpseductor · 1 year

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i realize im preaching to the choir here but it is extremely bold of the autogynephilia guy to insist that the VAST MAJORITY of adult trans women are, like, outright lying about their own experiences based on his having sorted them into arbitrary, unscientific categories AS A STRANGER. extremely fucking deranged

also obviously speaking on a more personal level the proposed "autohomoerotic" type of trans guy is so fucking infuriating to me. it's like, obviously that's going to be the explanation for gay trans men this idiot comes up with because of the view that being gay is "feminine male" behavior, so how do you victor victoria around that if your understanding of how gender and sexuality interact is from the stone age? Well Clearly It's A Total Separate Other Thing.

it's obviously a talking point every gay trans man on earth has heard at least once, like "you're trans because you're interested in pretending to be a gay man" rather than like. the actual situation. you know. i'm very tired i feel like garbage bc it's a bad migraine brain day but like it just frustrates me bc like...i mean clearly it's cruel and uncharitable and transphobic.

my own experience is that i grew up experiencing a lot of "typical" markers of dysphoria and preferring to be seen as a boy or at least "not a girl" and wanting to hang out with other boys and puberty sucking etc etc you have certainly heard the narrative people trot out and i did fit a number of those points. but it was difficult for me to pin down how i felt and who i actually felt i was without also wrangling the fact that i was struggling with a lot of internalized homophobia. growing up even before consciously understanding myself as male i felt a lot of guilt about being interested in guys and felt it was "wrong." for a good number of years i attempted to transform "i guess girls are pretty" into "i'm DEFINITELY attracted to women, a very socially acceptable thing for a man!" while also trying to deny being trans, which resulted in this really absurd attempt to convince myself i was An Lesbian despite having genuinely no fucking interest in women whatsoever beyond liking their clothes. ("slay bitch!" is not actually attraction to women, but try telling 19 year old lestat that, he will not agree.) and, of course, i absorbed a lot of surface level feminist talking points about how Bad And Yucky men are that made me feel that it would be, like...misogynist to not be a woman.

so i did have to reconcile all those things at once, but ESPECIALLY the fact that i was attracted to men to finally, like, be ready to just call myself a trans man. it was finally realizing that despite my shame about it growing up and the feeling that it was "bad" or "wrong" or "not feminist" (????) (my internalized homophobia was weird sometimes) i did like men, but only if they'd also treat me like a man, because i didn't really want to be having relationships with men as a woman. i was like "huh...this kind of sounds like i don't want to have relationships with ANYONE as a woman." and then i kind of realized after a short stint of identifying as bi that i was also like. just not interested in women at all. i had been making that shit up for notes.

so like, i think in that regard it's like...it's hard to separate my understanding of myself as a man who likes men from my understanding of myself as a man more generally, which is why it's especially frustrating to me to hear that twisted into "it's because you have a fetish for gay men" when i had to like. fight myself tooth and nail for Literally 22 years to accept that i am a man AND that i am attracted to men. i was so uncomfortable with who i was and tried so hard to be cis (or at least Not a man) and straight (or at least Not into men) at the same time that i tried to force myself to be a lesbian. despite having no interest in women. to me that was better than being the person i actually was, which was somebody i felt a lot of shame and discomfort about. accepting that i was binary trans and gay was not like "being gay seems cool can i play" so much as having to tell myself "maybe liking men and being male does not make you some kind of disgusting aberrant monster, dude." but god forbid anybody have any compassion about that when it's way easier to get mad at a straw fujo

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radkindoffeminist · 2 years

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Hi! I know you’re not a stand-in for all gc people and don’t expect you to speak on behalf of all of us but I’ve been wondering for months now what the stance is on tifs— in my experience, I’ve tried to engage with other terfs on this allied basis against all males, but I’ve personally never really taken issue with women/females who want to transition or change pronouns, which is typically where I find a division. Obviously I think they/thems are annoying and egregious most of the time, but I’ve found it really perturbing how much vitriol I’ve seen towards tifs from some terfs, I’ve seen some calling them stupid or deranged or brainwashed, things of that nature. Have you seen this pattern? How do you feel about it? My best personal/irl (and most effective) activism has always been talking to tifs actually, and getting them to see how the trans women in their lives treat them, how they perpetuate violence (particularly as tifs are often subjected to more tw attention and fetishism, and often effectively groomed into submission under the guise of “T4T”). But I love women and I feel like tifs in whatever form shouldn’t be hated or criticized this much (yes I recognize I’m calling them women even if they would not, irl I do my best to respect how they want to be referred to as and treated). Anyway, food for thought. Hope you’re having a good Sunday!

So my view is heavily shaped by the TIFs I have been good friends with for a long while and many encounters I’ve had online. As you said, I’m not a stand-in for all GC and my views are on the more sympathetic end as things go. I’m mostly in the same boat as you and have found that TIFs can generally be split into three categories.

Internalised misogyny/Internalised homophobia/Trauma: These three categories overlap heavily so it’s impossible to split them apart. Internalised misogyny/homophobia and/or trauma has led these women to identify as NB or trans in order to become ‘trans and straight’ or to escape the restrictions that they feel as women. The sad thing is that this probably makes up most TIFs and they will never analyse where some of these feelings are coming from because the hate for their bodies and womanhood is validated by the trans community as proof of them being trans. These women are struggling and often dress more androgynously because they think that gets them further away from ‘being a woman’. I have so much sympathy for these women, even if many of them still tow the trans party line and are assholes sometimes. They’re still struggling nonetheless.

Trendy Q*eer Girl(TM): Can cross other with either of the other categories, but also distinct enough to give it its own category. The trans q*eer girl is basically just the ‘I’m not like other girls’ but instead of doing it to impress the boys, does it to impress other q*eer people because they see being q*eer as a cool trend that they want in on. Often straight and if not straight then identifies as bisexual or pansexual but has (almost) exclusively been with men. Uses things like ‘loves iced coffee and energy drinks’ as proof of their q*eer status because obviously you can only like things like that if you’re q*eer, right? Annoying as fuck but sometimes does have trauma and internalised misogyny behind it so I have some sympathy, but not a lot for the people who treat our identities as little more than a trend.

Fetishiser: Rarer but certainly becoming more common and incredibly toxic. The fetishisers are typically trans men who date (or want to date) gay men and love yaoi (or whatever it’s called) and from that have developed an obsession over gay men to the point of convincing themselves that they themselves are actually gay men. It is creepy and weird and this group, even though they can struggle and have issues which led to this, deserve to be called out to no end. These are the people who are helping to normalise ‘genital preference’ and not being allowed to reject someone just because they’re trans, but focus more of their energy on gay men than lesbians. They are deeply homophobic.

As I said, I have an incredible amount of sympathy for many TIFs who are obviously struggling and it’s sad to see other radfems attack them so harshly and so often. They should definitely be called out on their toxic, homophobic, and misogynistic views, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t recognise that so many of these women are just struggling and doing their best to cope with their issues. Baselessly attacking them because people want to group together all trans people as being the problem when that’s not the issue does absolutely nothing for our cause and, if anything, continues to drive women away from radical feminism.

Why does so much of our sympathy go out of the window when people disagree with us? When did we stop fighting for the rights and protections of all women and decide that actually only the women in the fight with us need help and protection?

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eclipsecrowned · 2 years

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Ship Bias for Brienne, Jonathan, Mina, Asha, and Bane // anonymous

BRIENNE.

Brienne/Margaery: I think they can be butch/femme solidarity the likes of which Westeros is not prepared for. I think Marg should have married Renly for unrestricted access to his hot lady knight. I think Magaaery has the social smarts where Brienne has the common sense and they should both be Podrick's moms since Magaery loves kids and Brienne is forced into looking after the kid.

Brienne/Sansa: She's going to be Sansa's sworn shield do not @ me. I think Mama Cat accidentally playing matchmaker and sending the love of Sansa's life to her would be both the most bittersweet thing and potentially the most hilarious given 'and then my goodmother tried to murder me in cold blood.' Sansa has always wanted a knight as good as those in the songs, and Brienne is most certainly that.

Brienne/Daenarys: Brienne serving a royal redemption arc. Not holding Dany up to the same pedestal she did Renly, but now seeing the world for what it is, as well as this girl. Men have disappointed Dany at every critical juncture, let her see what a Maid-Knight can do for her campaign and love life. I think their overlapping narratives as outsiders would just mesh beautifully.

Brienne/Cersei: I have no excuse. I saw some fanart. they're both Bi and have Mental Problems. Jaime is the wrong twin.

JONATHAN CRANE.

Jon/Eddie, aka Scriddler/Riddlecrow: My first my last my everything. Largely as a result of roleplaying with Ax's top shelf Eddie, but I have literal in universe decades of lore for them. I cannot be normal about a cold, logical creature and a whimsical, brilliant rogue-turned-private eye. My Jon's (even temporary) redemption arc starts with him crawling into Eddie's penthouse once Arkham gives him the boot. There is nothing I do not love about these two.

Jon/Bane, aka Banecrow: The physical contrast! The mutual horrific backstories! The loneliness of genius! I think they are the kind of dynamic that would either clash at every moment, or become the rogue equivalent of sickening sweethearts. They'd help each other fight their battles, and give each other a space to be human rather than reputation or chemical-fueled villains.

Jon/Jervis, I don't know the cute portmanteau for this: I think Jon would help Jervis stay on top of his care and Jervis would manage to get the grim old professor to smile. I think they would be very good to each other whether as friends or partners or some other definition. I think regardless of dynamic they should get a place together and never stop balancing each other out for maybe forever. It would be so choice.

Jon/Corinthian, I just made this one up: Do not look at me. Both are pretty brutal killers who occupy the ever growing liminal space of fear. They are both gay. Jon would want to put the Corinthian under a microscope and discover how to synthesize whatever anti-rizz he has going on. Jon would be bold enough to mace Dream with Fear Toxin if he even thought of interrupting this bullshit. Corinthian can be thoroughly fetishized as he deserves. I live in shame.

MINA WAKEFIELD.

Mina/Harley: Chainsmokes. Ed got me hard w them. Med school pals who despite being in different departments drifted together and then refused to drift apart for years. Until, of course, as Mina puts it, 'my ex left me for a clown.' Despite her strong efforts to appear otherwise, Mina has never gotten over that, and has stayed Harley's friend in a subtly masochistic tango that is 'still in love with you' meets 'would be invited into the polycule if she could use her words to express thes feelings.'

Mina/Oswald: What began as a sort of pair the spares in a plot w Ax has become one of my fav ships for her. Mina's mature, professional, and a real classy type, and has been a personal ally of the Rogues gallery for years. Throw in a mutual goal and a mutual friend and, well, she was going to be recognized eventually. Mina is a judgment free zone and despite their appearances otherwise, they do have a graveyard in their closets. I think they have more in common than they actively realize, and there is fuel for romantic interpretation there. Also, it's been established that Mina's type in men is 'Big Boys' and while she might have five inches on him, well...

Mina/Waylon: Ax bounces this by me one day and I realize yeah, why not? Mina doesn't judge, Mina is used to working to people who look 'different,' and Waylon has been a personal friend of hers for years. They both came from some shitty upbringings so I think they can both appreciate having someone they don't have to 'front' with. I endorse their annual pizza nights instead becoming date nights. That, and they don't get much bigger than Waylon in this city.

Mina/Bruce: Points directly at Penny. Listen man is self-sabotaging and falling for dangerous brunette villainesses in this city like it's a professional sport. But I think the real potential here is Bruce being a sentimental, cyclical sort who sees himself as the open-pocketbook altruist of the city and Mina as the professional and well-loved surgeon and thinks 'I've seen this before it worked out fine.' Mina in turn sees a rich idiot with no day job, but one who cares for the city as much as she does. The real tragedy is, of course, neither is what they appear to be on the surface, and it's never going to last without some serious deception that throws the entire dynamic into question.

ASHA GREYJOY.

Asha/Qarl: Good dynamic, good dynamic. I like they're both clearly fucking around and not intending to find out, unlike other dynamics pursuant of Asha. I don't know that it will last, but I certainly think their closeness will. It's easily the least offensive canonical Asha romance.

Asha/Arianne: I am here for two queens who are going to flip the board and make their own way. I so want Arianne to end up on Asha's ship and the two to have a fierce battle of wills that ends with pillowtalk. I think they would be the de facto power couple of Westeros if they were given a chance. That and my Asha is obsessed w Dornish gowns and the mere glance of cleavage. Plus I also think as the rebellious/holdout factions of Westeros historically, they should make their own alliance against the mainland/the rest of Westeros. I think it would be funny. Five kingdoms and the Ironborn-Dornish Pride Parade circling the continent in fancy boats a la Nymeria.

Asha/Ravenna (OC): Oh my GOD Ed keeps getting me tell me to stop -- But no, seriously, the idea of them finding each other in the carnage of taking back Winterfell and Rav successfully appealing to Asha for safe passage. And how can Asha say no, Rav is not only beautiful, but as best Asha can tell, an innocent in her father and half-brother's crimes. The unsteady early days knowing what their brothers were a part of, giving way to an all too easy attraction. I cannot wait for them to survive and sail away to have endless adventures and present a new dawn for their respective houses.

BANE.

Bane/Talia: I want to repeat from a post I made about this. yes i ship b*ne/t*lia but not in a nolan or comics way, but in a secret third way (there is something wrong with you. there is something wrong with you that is also wrong with me. / I will love you if you don’t marry me. I will love you if you marry someone else… and I will love you if you have a child, and I will love you if you have two children, or three children, or even more… and I will love you if you never marry at all, and never have children, and spend your years wishing you had married me after all, and I must say that on late, cold nights I prefer this scenario out of all the scenarios I have mentioned. / i don’t know what brings broken people together. maybe damage seeks out damage the way stains on a mattress halo into one another. the way stains on a mattress bleed into each other.)

Bane/Jonathan, aka Banecrow: See its entry under Jonathan :D

#briennetbt #banetbt #it's a thankless job but somebody's got to do it. [ mina wakefield ; ask ]#ashatbt #there is no cure for fear. [ jonathan crane ; ask ]

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