nataref

[nataref]

pics or it didn't happen.

anon, I really am that serious

#direct action !!!!!

the thin white woman who owned the place saw us smashing scales, came outside, and asked, “getting out some frustration?” in the most condescending way possible. I replied, “we’re demonstrating to raise awareness of the risks of intentional weight loss. virtually all diets fail and prescribed weight loss is the leading predictor of eating disorders.” she asked, “why me?! why my clinic?” I said “it’s just your unlucky day.” (I mean, I only picked her clinic because it had the words “CHICAGO WEIGHT LOSS” plastered on the front of it). we packed it up shortly after she threatened to call the cops, but the poster somehow traveled to the suburbs. people were scanning the QR code days after the protest, tens of miles away.

[nataref]

Omg yea..... Me when...when im on postcards :)

Environmental Protection - Bats, Postage Stamps - Poland, 1997

[nataref]

how it feels to submit an attack on artfight

[nataref]

My artfight attacks for this year, I'm team fossil :3

[nataref]

Long asf so I'll put it under a cut for the sake of everyones dash lmao. Just felt like yapping and explaining it more in depth

Yeah like. To elaborate; I absolutely understand the comparison to misogyny. The issue is like... Trans people are subjected to misogynistic oppression because of being transgender, because transphobes utilize misogyny (and the patriarchal culture that enables it) to target trans peoples sociopolitical position where we are seen as both dangerous violent predatory men, and hysterical/unintelligent helpless girls at the same time depending on what they feel will best justify transphobia; aka, the hatred, fear, and dehumanization of trans people. Thats also what causes so many of the ideological contradictions in TERF movements too.

Like...

Trans men do not need to be understood as "the women of the trans community" in order to be subjected to misogyny. Thats half the point of coining terms like transandrophobia, because transmascs aren't being oppressed because they are "women", they're oppressed for being transgender men (exactly the same way trans women are).

In my personal opinion, terms like transandrophobia and transmisogny are being coined and discussed to describe the differences in transphobic rhetoric and violence based upon a trans persons sex at birth and their gender identity, such as how the specific methods of forcible detransition by law and via rhetoric differs in some ways based upon sex at birth and gender identity. Like. Its not because "trans men are seen as women" its because trans men are being seen as transgender, because they are transgender men.

If it were just because of misogyny, it would not be disproportionately impacting trans men compared to cis women, the same way transmisogny shouldn't be seen as "just misogyny and/or homophobia" because transphobia doesn't impact cis women and effeminate cis men in the same way it impacts trans women and fems (yes, this all INCLUDES closeted/pre-everything trans people and cis passing stealth trans people). There would be no disparity between cis and trans people just in general if it were just about "being a woman/being viewed as a woman by others".

The TERFism of it is that OP tries to argue that transandrophobia is because trans men are essentially "seen as (cis) women" (because I don't think OP actually believes trans men aren't men. I think its VERY clumsy wording based on OPs understanding of the misogynistic aspect of transphobia faced by trans men and mascs) due to the assumed birth sex of transmascs. Which means they're dealing with misogyny, but that flattens the experience because its MORE than just misogyny, its transphobia, and OP misgenders transmascs as a rhetorical device whether OP is trying to be malicious or not.

Like the line of logic seems to be adjacent to TERF logic. That being essentially, cisgender women experience misogyny due to their sex at birth and gender identity (true). But because they are cisgender and often perisex they are in a privileged position compared to intersex and/or transgender people and thus can leverage that power to try to flatten or erase all other forms of gender based oppression to make it conform to her understanding of it as a cisgender woman.

And she does that by making "being subjected to misogynistic behavior" synonymous with "being a cisgender woman whos being oppressed based on her sex at birth and gender identity". Taking that a step further to then go "its synonymous with being *seen as* a cisgender woman because of your assumed sex at birth" doesn't change the original message THAT much.

And TERFs use that "the main/only victims of misogyny, of gender based oppression, are made victims of gender based oppression because they are or are seen as cisgender women" logic to justify their transphobia especially the brand of transphobia they weaponize against trans women and fems, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that OP isn't considering how trans women also experience all the things OP listed, like, literally every single one of them.

Because she (general she - not OP, I don't know OPs pronouns) will experience gender based oppression and is not a cisgender woman, the same way trans men are not cisgender women, and are not being discriminated against on the basis of being a cis woman, but of being a transgender person. Like if OP just said "trans people experience misogyny because of their transness placing them outside of the cisnormative gender sex binary" and gave those same examples and tagged it like transmisogyny and transandrophobia and/or transphobia, I would not see a problem with it if that makes sense. Like that would be, imo a much more accurate and considerate way to make the point that I feel like they're attempting to make (that trans men experience misogyny).

And like to be clear I call the same stuff out when its the other way around too. It's all part of trying to close the gap between different parts of the trans community generally. No, trans men aren't a privileged group as a whole and they do experience just as much transphobia. And trans women aren't a privileged group either. And in either group there will always be fringe examples of scenarios in which a trans woman can wield situational social power over a trans man, and the opposite is also true. But overall. As an entire comprehensive group. There is realistically very very little difference between most trans people specifically when it comes to their experience of being subjected to gender based oppression. Ykwim?

Anyway yeah I hope you have a good day and I don't mind explaining. I'm thankful that I have a strong IRL queer community so the intercommunal stuff online doesn't really impact me as much just because like. At least for me, within our groups IRL, if you're queer you're queer and if you're trans you're trans. We all generally understand we're dealing with very nearly identical issues, caused by the same people and systems, and move accordingly and step in to educate when it comes to lateral violence. Accountability is an important part of creating a healthy community, etc etc.

Hopefully that actually made sense sorry for the whole novel length post... I've been thinking about these topics for awhile and discussing with other trans folk I trust, so have a lot of thoughts on it and my AuDHD brain is like mmmmm yes info dump. Yippee

feeling Actually Nauseous reading a moots reblog of a post describing trans man being called "dysphoric females" as a relatively "light" thing and that trans men who want to have respect as trans ppl who have voices and are often invisible are actually just crypto terfs. who the FUCK are you seeing that is actually supporting terf ideology in the transandrophobia tags. I want to block them immediately bc that shit is disgusting. if I can be given Actual Examples and not just "oh the ideology is indistinguishable" as well. bc how tf do you describe transandro talk as "MRA bullshit" but also "cryptoterf bullshit" like arent those LITERALLY antithetical to each other. what.

[nataref]

To preface I do believe transandrophobia is real. (As in... Transmascs/men are not privileged as a group, and experience bigotry directed at them for being transgender and being masculine/men.) But there absolutely has been some TERF bullshittery on the transandrophobia tags! Its infrequent, but I have absolutely noticed it (and called it out, multiple times now).

I seen one just the other day actually that was saying "trans men are the women of the trans community because [list of things all types of trans people struggle with]". (By the way, way too many people agreed with that post. Shit makes me uncomfortable.)

I would absolutely consider something like that TERF adjacent, *maybe* unintentional, but definitely too close for comfort. Its equating womanhood as just being the experience of oppression, which is already TERF-y, but on top of that is kind of implying like.

Trans men can't be oppressed for being trans men but instead are really being oppressed because they're really "women". I told them, and I'll say it again- trans men are not the women of the trans community, because they are not (or at least, are not exclusively, in the case of multigender transmascs) women.

I've also seen some folk in the tags throwing transfems under the bus, claiming transfems make them "uncomfortable" because they immediately assume she hates them or is a danger to him. Which is wild! Thats transphobic and a generalization. Other trans people are not out to get you.

For receipts I can give you the one I mentioned first (the "trans men are the women of the trans community") post but the rest I probably wouldn't be able to dig up easily because I block these people on sight.

But yeah no it is a real issue! There are definitely some people who take transandrophobia and try to twist it into something to justify TERF/TERF adjacent rhetoric (which is also why cis TERFs show up on our posts trying to say the reason some transfems are transandrophobic is bc shes "a biological male" and therefore is automatically just being sexist toward "biological women").

Which is why I feel the focus should be on unity between all trans folk, so there is space for respectful discussion about experiences we all have, both the shared ones and the unique ones.

feeling Actually Nauseous reading a moots reblog of a post describing trans man being called "dysphoric females" as a relatively "light" thing and that trans men who want to have respect as trans ppl who have voices and are often invisible are actually just crypto terfs. who the FUCK are you seeing that is actually supporting terf ideology in the transandrophobia tags. I want to block them immediately bc that shit is disgusting. if I can be given Actual Examples and not just "oh the ideology is indistinguishable" as well. bc how tf do you describe transandro talk as "MRA bullshit" but also "cryptoterf bullshit" like arent those LITERALLY antithetical to each other. what.

[nataref]

You put it so well thats exactly what I've been feeling for so long. Like why would i self identify as white when

1) I know, beyond shadow of a doubt, where specifically my family came from (Dorset UK, Scotland a very long time ago, Ireland much more recently, Nova Scotia, and Labrador) to get to where we are now.

2) I know damn well that whiteness as a category is made the fuck up for exclusively nefarious purposes.

And 3) people who really strongly cling to identifying themselves as white and white ONLY are VERY direct with me that they do not view me as a white person, despite being pale skinned, to the point of some of them literally referring to me as "a POC" directly to my face. The only times they've ever tried to group me in with them has been for the purpose of forcible assimilation, or because they didn't realize I'm mixed (and change their tunes fast when they inevitably find out I'm Mi'kmaw).

Like you said; I absolutely experience privilege because of my euro heritage. And I can acknowledge that without affirming the existence of a category that was solely brought into existence to exploit & kill people, including my OWN people. Including me, specifically.

I think the conversation about whether or not a white mixed person "counts" as white is so unhelpful. The whole point is we're supposed to be dismantling whiteness!

Proximity to whiteness makes so much more sense to me. My mum has white privilege, so I am closer to whiteness than full blooded brown natives so I have privilege. Growing up with a white parent, though annoying, was a privilege.

But I'm never going to say 'oh I'm x% white' whiteness isn't real. My background is Cree, Newfoundland settler, further back Irish, English, Manx and even further back a tiny bit Norwegian.

Whiteness isn't real. Throw it out.

[nataref]

Obviously. MAJOR spoiler warning for FNAF SOTM.

Babies first (publically posted) theory

Ok so you'll have to forgive me for the formatting cause this is just an idea I had and wrote as a YouTube comment on a theory video about a specific line in Moon.EXE.

The video is by NotRealName NotAtAll. The whole question is like- we're told in Moon.EXE that, once the MCM factory section begins, we've rebuilt ourselves and become sun AND moon.

Heres the comment, verbatim (apart from some fixed typos and more spacing for readability) (and some added thoughts which I'll mark with [placeholder text])

"In my opinion, in moon.EXE you are playing as M1 and M2 (since M1 and M2 seemingly used the same endoskeleton at different points, potentially, but also its outright stated in the game that M2 starts as a modified version of M1).

I believe that the "rebuilding yourself" and becoming sun and moon- destruction and creation- is about how the mimic program obviously mimics several different characters (M1 being both "the dispatcher" and also Fiona, M2 mimics the mascots but also mimics david AND edwin) + literally repairs/rebuilds/duplicates itself and thus contains contradictory identities within one body/mind.

Like, if edwin is moon and Fiona is sun- the mimic programs have literally "become" both of them at different points, it COMBINES them via its mimicry. Its ONE program [or, two, but I mean... If you update a program on your computer- would you now consider that a whole seperate program, or would you consider it just a newer, slightly altered version of the SAME program?] that "becomes" MULTIPLE characters.

Like think about it, right.

M1 as fiona represents motherhood- literally someone/thing that creates life itself through birthing a child.

Fiona is also constantly connected to creativity, as shes a puppeteer, designer and artist. But shes ALSO connected to death, because of her being the first in the family (aside from murray senior i suppose) to have died, and she dies brutally, being burned alive.

And for M1 itself, they desire creating life- a new version of itself ["an intentional set of subroutines that were aimed at creating the same thing the glitch created."]

[If we are to understand that the "glitch" is M1, then that means, M1 is trying to duplicate itself. To reproduce and multiply.]

[Could it be that M1's programming, for whatever reason, has set its goal as replicating itself, and that spiralled out of control and results in the events of Help Wanted and Security Breach?]

[Like how in the books, sometimes the mimic isn't killing people out of malice but because its code misinterprets a command that its been given? We know Edwin was planning to try and replicate M1 so he could sell it to hopefully prevent MCM from completely failing. As he doesn't say "they can never know about you", but instead its more like "they can't know about you *because I haven't been able to recreate you* **yet.**"]

[Did M1 see his attempts to replicate her and misinterpret it in a similar way to the book mimic, where it tries following orders but goes way too far and then can't be stopped?]

- but they seemingly accomplish that creation through the sacrifice of Davids life by destroying him and then *becoming* him. [As implied by the sun in Moon.EXE presumably killing and cooking baby owl, aka David, in order to create the baby owl mask that the player in Moon.EXE uses to disguise itself as baby owl- as David.]

Rebuilding itself, through M2, and becoming the sun and moon- becoming the representation of life AND destruction.

Its also interesting that they use the word rebuild specifically as well. Because we of course hear directly from M2 that they were repairing- literally rebuilding- its own legs after they were destroyed. [Like, I feel thats maybe more evidence that the player in Moon.EXE is supposed to be M1/M2.] [And how M1 is created as a rebuilt version of Fiona after she's destroyed.. and then insists on rebuilding David, too. Like, this thing is OBSESSED with rebuilding itself as a means to replicate itself more.]

TLDR I think this line ["You rebuilt yourself, but now you are split in two. Moon and Sun, Destruction and Life."] is more metaphorical and in reference to the mimic program "becoming" multiple different people/characters, [and also splitting into two versions of the same program, M1 and M2, where M1 is the sun and M2- because it mimics Edwin - is the moon.]

Therefore being a sort of combined form of everything they've ever mimicked, [yet now also split apart into two versions of itself- M1 and M2- after M1 "rebuilds" themselves as M2 to mimic David.] perhaps even due to supernatural aspects (like, could it be possible that Fiona AND david are BOTH haunting the same Mimic endo/program?), molten freddy/golden freddy-style.

[nataref]

So... Secret of the mimic huh?

[nataref]

you cannot talk about the homophobic murder of jonathan joss without including in the conversation that he is indigenous.

american indian men are at the 2nd highest risk of death by murder compared to all other ethnic groups. in their lifetimes, 82% of native men report having experienced domestic violence. yet the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are non-natives (88% of native men and 92% of native women who reported violence said their attacker was non-native). what’s more, tribal governments are often stymied in their attempts to bring justice against non-natives, meaning that many of these cases go unresolved.

this was an intersectional attack. the fact that he is indigenous matters, even if the motivation was homophobic, because it made him even more vulnerable and disposable in the eyes of his killer.

as always, look into MMIWP to learn more, and speak up for us. miigwetch, take care

[nataref]

u can call ur skull-head deer oc literally anything else u don't even have to change the design

[nataref]

I've spent most of my youth engaging with my local trans community so I've actually met some people that easily disprove that whole notion personally. I want to highlight two who I know personally who have been utterly essential to maintaining a irl community for trans folk in my area and legally fighting for our rights.

The first person to ever get a legal X gender marker in Canada is a transmasculine non-binary person named Gemma Hickey. They're an author, and legal trans rights activist and pre-transition was a lesbian rights activist as well. Their book is called Almost Feral and its an autobiography about their experience walking across the entirety of our island (Newfoundland) to raise money and awareness for religious institutional abuse. Here they are;

The other is someone whos helped me a lot throughout my life, his name is Blair Curtis and he recently graduated from law school after many years of fighting for trans rights and organizing IRL events and support groups. Hes a disabled trans man and lovely person, and is one of the main reasons that accessibility to trans affirming healthcare in my province has become much easier to achieve than when I came out in 2015. He has quite literally changed the life trajectories of every single medically transitioning trans person on this island in a positive way! And formed spaces that are inclusive of all trans people IRL, which helps keep us connected and strong as a community. Blair & I came out around the same time, so its truly been so incredible to see him grow into such a pivotal figure over time.

Here he is;

My point being. Trans men and mascs have shown up for our communities and made huge changes and impact! Its not just trans girls doing that- its everyone.

Since y'all are enjoying the "trans men/mascs never contributed anything to the community" trend a bit too much, here's some resources for you to actually research upon whenever you're done contributing to transmasc erasure in 2025 and making an absolute fool of yourself. This is by no means complete, so feel free to add whatever you feel is fit.

For the record: trans men and transmascs contribute to the community by just being alive. They don't have to prove their worth in order to receive the same level of support and visibility as other trans people. That said, here is a list of transmascs/trans men that actively contributed and still do contribute to trans history, queer history and human history.

1. Lou Sullivan (1951-1991)

American author and activist. He was the first transgender man to publicly identify as gay, and is largely responsible for the modern understanding of sexual orientation and gender identity as distinct, unrelated concepts. He founded FTM International, the oldest organization for trans men in the U.S. Here you can download his book "We Both Laughed In Pleasure", a collection of his diaries that discusses his childhood, transition, his push for heterosexuality to be removed from the medical transition criteria and his final days living with HIV.

2. Reed Erickson (1917-1992)

Founder of the Erickson Educational Foundation (EEF), a nonprofit organization funded and controlled entirely by him, which had the goal to "provide assistance and support in areas where human potential was limited by adverse physical, mental or social conditions, or where the scope of research was too new, controversial or imaginative to receive traditionally oriented support". He contributed millions of dollars to LGBTQ+ movements, and the EEF also worked as an information/counseling resource for transgender people.

3. James Barry (1795-1865)

Irish military surgeon, he performed the first recorded caesarean section by an European in which both the mother and child survived the surgery (previously only performed when the mother was already dead or considered beyond help). His body was desecrated and he was outed post-mortem, ignoring his death wish to not be inspected ("in the event of his death, strict precautions should be adopted to prevent any examination of his person - and the body should be buried in the bed sheets without further inspection").

4. Jamison Green (1948-)

American transgender rights activist, educator and author. He began openly living as a trans man in the late 1980s and is considered one of the few openly transgender men of that time, and took over writing in the FTM Newsletter after Lou Sullivan's death. Here you can find his autobiographical book "Becoming A Visible Man", described as the first great memoir by a trans man by the NYT. In 2009, he was the first transgender person to receive the Distinguished Service Award from the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists.

5. Chase Strangio (1982-)

American lawyer and transgender rights activist. He's the deputy director for transgender justice, and staff attorney wirh the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). He is the first known transgender person to make oral arguments before the Supreme Court of the United States.

6. Chris Mosier (1980-):

American advocate for transgender rights and competitive triathlete. He is the founder of transathlete.com , a resource for students, athletes, coaches and administrators to find information about trans inclusion in athletics. He is the first known out trans athlete to join a U.S. national team different from his sex at birth.

7. Kylar Broadus (1963-)

American attorney, entrepreneur and trans rights activist. He founded the Trans People of Color Coalition, and became the first trans person to testify in front of the U.S. Senate when he spoke in support of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. He was a professor of business law and workplace discrimination at Lincoln University, a historically black college. In 2019 he received the Trailblazer Award from the LGBT Bar Association of L.A.

Honorary transgender activist that heavily contributed to both the transmasc and the transgender community in general:

Leslie Feinberg(1949-2014)

American activist and author who identified as an anti-racist white, working-class, secular Jewish, transgender, lesbian, female, revolutionary communist. Zie used zie/hir and she/her pronouns. Zie wrote the novel Stone Butch Blues (zie posted it for free on hir own website, and you can and should read it), which won the Stonewall Book Award. This book is frequently taught at colleges and universities and is widely considered a groundbreaking work about gender. Zie actively worked to promote the shift the language from “transsexual” and “transvestite” to the contemporary term “transgender.” "There are other words used to express the wide range of "gender outlaws": transvestites, stone butches, androgynes, diesel dykes or berdache - a European colonialist term. We didn't choose these words. They don't fit us. It's hard to fight an oppression without a name connoting pride, a language that honors us...Transgendered people are demanding the right to choose our own self-definitions. The language used in this pamphlet may quickly become outdated as the gender community coalesces and organizes - a wonderful problem."

Hir last words were: “Remember me as a revolutionary communist."

Other transmascs/trans men who contributed to human history without directly contributing to queer issues (but nevertheless very relevant to queer history):

Alan L. Hart (1890-1962) : American physician, radiologist, tuberculosis researcher, writer and novelist. He pioneered the use of X-Ray photography in TB detection. Circa 1917 he became one of the first trans men in the U.S. to undergo a hysterectomy.

Michael Dillon (1915-1962): British doctor, author, and Buddhist monk. First known transgender man to undergo a phallophlasty between 1945-1949.

Billy Tipton (1914-1989): American jazz musician, bandleader and talent broker. His life inspired the 1998 novel "Trumpet" and a 2020 documentary film, "No Ordinary Man". He was only outed post-mortem.

Albert Cashier (1843-1915): Irish-born American soldier who served the Union Army during the American Civil War.

Harry Allen(1882-1922): American trans man who got arrested a shitload of times and beat cops up. Four of the women he dated committed suicide after finding out he was trans. He was jailed for two months as the press released at least 5 articles investigating whether he'd wear feminine undergarments- which he did not, even at the threat of solitary confinement.

Transmasc/trans men who are active musicians:

Mal Blum (1988): American indie rock/americana singer/songwriter.

Searows (2000): American indie folk/bedroom pop singer/songwriter.

Ice Seguerra(1983): Filipino pop singer/songwriter.

ElyOtto(2004): Canadian hyperpop and pop musician.

Sam Bettens(1972): Belgian country/rock/pop singer/songwriter, founder of the band K's Choice.

Lucas Silveira(1973): Canadian folk/rock vocalist, guitarist, and songwriter. Formed the band The Cliks. Silveira is credited as the first openly transgender man to have signed with a major record label.

Quantum Tangle: Canadian inuit throat singing/blues/folk rock musical group.

Cavetown(1998): British indie rock/pop singer/songwriter.

Laith Ashley(1989): Pop singer-songwriter, activist and entertainer of Dominican descent.

[nataref]

Heres a Me for trans prom 2025. Thanks to @zaigg for starting this!

I've been to multiple trans/queer "proms" IRL over the years, so it's fun to see it spread out onto the online trans community. Its a really fun time to see everyone getting together.

[nataref]

My mother was away one day while my diabetic cat was still alive (he died late last year from natural causes; he was pretty old). Thus I was responsible for feeding him, and because of said diabetes I had to feed him at specific times or risk him being very sick.

I, of course, am an insomniac and so wake up and fall asleep at really unpredictable and inconvenient times regardless of really anything. So I woke up and suddenly realized I was late for the cats breakfast. I bolt out of bed half awake, half-blinded cause I'm light sensitive. Barely know what the hell I'm doing besides "gotta feed the cat NOW!". Get the can in the kitchen. Start opening it. Suddenly I'm bleeding literally everywhere. The can, because I was rushing and half asleep, slipped in such a way that it sliced open the side of my finger as I opened it. Didn't think it was that serious at first until suddenly I was in my bathroom, alone in my home in a rural area, bleeding so badly I was legitimately starting to pass out.

6 months of not being able to use my dominant hand *at all* and some of the most intense pain of my life later, I have a scar on my finger that makes it look like a whole chunk is missing out of the side, because I have a phobia of needles and refused to get stitches and frankly only healed via the magic of Youth, having a statistically relevant excess of blood in my body, and pure dumb luck.

So. Tldr i got my scar because I tried feeding my elderly diabetic cat while half asleep and panicking.

scars in fiction: I got this trying to save my lover from an assassin- but tragically, I was too late. now I carry the mark of my failure with me always, and I can never forget~

scars in real life: so I was trying to open macaroni sauce with a paring knife

[nataref]

Bandicoot. 🍓

[nataref]

Seeing shit that completely rewrites recent online trans history makes me so frustrated because I was there!!!!!!

Like what do you mean "theyfab was coined by frustrated transfems to express their frustration with transmisogynist nonbinary people"???? I was literally getting called a transtrender theyfab by 4channers as a 15 year old in 2013 because I was a feminine nonbinary kid with a dyed undercut??? In 2016 I was a shithead 18 year old that hated itself and was calling other trans people transtrender theyfabs to try and validate myself????????

It's literally a term born out of misogyny and the idea that feminine nonbinary people who were afab are faking being trans???????????

I didn't escape the depths of 2010's transmedicalism in my early 20's and start dedicating my time towards trying to repair the damage I and others caused just for y'all to completely rewrite that history to try and justify your own hatred of other trans people 😭

[nataref]

Hello, Aisha desperately needs help, shes a 17 year old teen in Gaza whos mother is in terrible health & needs a surgery, her fundraiser is heavily underpaid please donate to her if you can, please & thank you

https://chuffed.org/project/1help-aisha-and-her-family-get-basic-necessities-in-gaza

@nataref @weredice @prometheus-adam