#Also... WE CAN SAVE TENNA

[godisasimp]

What is Toby's deal with Roulxs.

[rnelodyy]

I just figured out what made Spamton and Jevil go insane

SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER 4

It was the Prophecy.

Let's start with Jevil, which mostly turned into talking about Seam, since it's hard to get a coherent word out of Jevil himself.

Talking to King in chapter 4 and picking "Jester" nets you the following dialogue:

The phrasing here is what I specifically want to point out, because it's framed less like Jevil gave King instructions on how to rise to power, and more like Jevil was PREDICTING King's rise to power.

But like most things Jevil, our bombshells when it comes to him come from Seam.

This dialogue should be familiar, it's one of the first things we learned about Jevil outside of his bossfight, and our main hint connecting him to Gaster. Him saying things that both did and didn't make sense to me suggests the Prophecy, but that may also be confirmation bias.

But it's THIS dialogue that I really wanted to highlight here.

Seam's worldview is EXTREMELY nihilistic. While they don't outright discourage you from going on your adventures, they seem amused at the fact that you're even trying at all. On top of this, Seam has a lot of dialogue about stuff they could not reasonably know about, either because it happened nowhere near them, or it hasn't happened yet.

They knows about the super bosses and the Shadow Crystals you can collect from them:

They know about Mettaton designing Spamton NEO's body:

They know about the Knight ambushing you at the end of Chapter 3, and how you need the Shadow Mantle to beat it (unless you're a tryhard):

And they know about the Old Man as well:

(There's one more piece of dialogue that's relevant here, but I'm going to save that for when I talk about Spamton.)

This is a quality that Seam shares with Jevil, as Jevil neatly predicts Queen's appearance in Chapter 2 if you defeat him with violence:

All of this combined, to me, implies that the "strange words" Jevil told Seam were, in fact, the Prophecy he got from Gaster. The reason Seam is so nihilistic is because they already know exactly what's going to happen... specifically, the Roaring is coming, and there's nothing they can do to stop it.

There's only one thing that seems to genuinely surprise them: defeating the Knight in Chapter 3.

...which later prompts this dialogue.

The fact that we did something Seam, someone who knows the Prophecy, genuinely wasn't expecting, gives them hope. Because that could mean that the Prophecy isn't set in stone, and the Roaring may yet be averted.

Now lets move on to Spamton, because Chapter 3 gave us a LOT more to work with there. Spamton's backstory specifically gave me the idea for this theory, because a lot of things about it start making sense when viewed through this lens.

Spamton was an unsuccessful salesman who dreamed of making it big. One day, he was contacted by someone (Gaster) on the phone, and suddenly all of his businesses skyrocketed, becoming so successful that he got a room in Queen's mansion. However, one day the person who contacted him stopped calling, and his entire life came crashing down around him to the point that he ended up homeless and living in a dumpster.

This didn't make sense to me at first. If Gaster was just giving him business advice, taking that away shouldn't have allowed his empire to collapse overnight. What makes more sense is that Gaster was telling Spamton parts of the Prophecy, specifically the parts on how he was going to make it big. All Spamton had to do is follow Gaster's advice, and he'd become the BIG SHOT he'd always wanted to be.

As a bit of extra proof for this, here's seemingly random bit of dialogue from Seam.

Someone who knows the Prophecy using it to see the future in order to beat the Addisons specifically? That seems like a pretty obvious hint.

Chapter 3 also tells us more about Spamton's relationship with Tenna. Spamton and Tenna used to be business partners, with Tenna wanting to learn what made Spamton a BIG SHOT in the first place. But then...

It's implied that this is when Spamton stopped receiving calls. So why exactly did Gaster stop calling?

Because Tenna is in the Prophecy. Specifically, the part about him getting cut down by the Knight (I'd add a screenshot here but I cannot fucking find it, it is in there, trust me).

Gaster was most likely aware that, if Tenna found out about his pre-destined death, he'd try to find a way to prevent it, or at the very least get better at watching his back. So, he called Spamton to say he was cutting him off, and without the Prophecy giving him advice, everything came crashing down around him.

As a result, Spamton is obsessed with finding a way to learn more about the Prophecy, and how to use it to predict the future again. He wants to be big enough to see past the darkness obscuring that knowledge from him.

As such, he recruits Kris into helping him see past the bounds of reality and find the full Prophecy. That's what [Hyperlink Blocked] is. It's literally a broken hyperlink to the Prophecy.

But if you do the Weird Route, you're likely going directly against the Prophecy. Things that are specifically pre-ordained do not happen in the Weird Route - most clearly seen with Ralsei's reaction to Susie and Noelle not going on their ferris wheel ride.

Ralsei has full knowledge of the Prophecy, and is understandably freaking the fuck out when he realizes we have just done something that directly contradicts it.

And what does Spamton have to say about your Weird Route antics?

We don't need his Prophecy anymore, because we're making our own.

But that does leave a question though. If Spamton was destined to make it big, why did he need Gaster's help? Why did his empire collapse as soon as Gaster stopped helping, if his success was pre-determined? Why did Gaster need to tell Jevil how to get King into power, and to get him to worship the Knight?

Why does Gaster's involvement specifically seem to change the Prophecy?

Because Gaster is the one writing it.

[sunnysunsins]

An old man spoiling the next chapters to us like it's nothing

Lord of the Hammer was based on the Prophesy. And we are following it

(Gerson called out Susie as being the dragon when you finish the battle)

(But we don't save the Queen. We battle her)

(Tenna prevents us from seeing, we can only get a glance. Unless you play the original game and actually explore the lands)

(Literally happening in the moment)

Since we don't have chapter 5 yet, the best representation:

Something's gonna happen at the festival the next chapter. Festival dark world? Also, Kris, Susie, Noelle and Berdly are all going to the festival together. Love pentagon drama~

Chapter 6..... exists. But what the fuck is gonna happen at the end of it?

Also, casual Gaster reference? Fell into his own creation?

Or maybe just Toby burnout.

[fag-zombot-sonic]

DELTARUNE CHAPTER 3 ENDING SPOILERS (i completed chapter 4 so... add stuff from it to this if you may)

SO ARE WE GONNA TALK ABOUT GASTER IN CHAPTER 3?

SO YOU ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS. You beat Tenna, everything looks like its gonna end on a high note... and then we come to face The Roaring Knight Themselves. We lose and we chase them and a sudden Undyne into the bunker, but the door closes in front of us, etc.

Immediately after that, you get this screen:

I, like a fool, went immediately to "Keep Playing Chapter 3" especially after the last seconds before the credits, because, i figured it meant there was still stuff to do, but- eh, no... it takes you back to your last SAVE point in chapter 3, luckily, I saved AFTER Tenna's fight. (which also, damn... the throwback to "the light only you can see" right before the fight with the knight... its got to mean something.)

So I fought with the knight again, except while in my first attempt i tried to go pacifist, I decided to attack the knight, and survived for exactly ONE turn more than before (a total of three turns), but died again, figured the cutscene would play as normal... but No. The SOUL gets dragged upwards, and then... The voice from the Gonermaker sequence, what most of the fanbase agrees is Gaster... speaks to you.

The SOUL turned into its GAME OVER form (Sorta darkened and fuzzy) and the voice game me two choices

of course... i got curious and went back, it takes you right back to that last SAVE point. So I figured... I'd try to survive the Knight this time... and

Yeah i only got three turns in before they killed me. The voice came back though.

I tried to go back, and got my ass handed to me by the Knight again, but the voice didn't say anything, just the options, so... i moved forward, and now I'm making this post.

'Gaster' mentioning that we're missing something can't help but make me think on the Shadow Mantle (source of the screenshot):

So uh yeah, idk if anyone's seen this yet... but... yeah. I'm freaking out.

[mandatory-blog-stop-asking]

deltarune spoilers I wanna talk about chapter 4 below is a pretty mundane theory about the knight's identity and their role in the narrative

Just writing some unimportant stuff in this line because Tumblr sucks and sometimes doesn't care about the break anyway let's go

I'm pretty sure at this point (and thus am probably wrong) that the Knight is Dess Holiday, but also that Dess was the original girl hero in the trio that's supposed to save the world.

First thing that catches my eye is the difference between what Ralsei tells us the prophecy is like, and actually seeing the prophecy for real in the church.

In Ralsei's version, this is how the monster looks like.

This is important because this is pretty clearly Susie. It's a dinosaur-like monster that wields an axe.

This is a depiction that comes up later; in Chapter 2 we see it in Queen's Castle, as a statue Susie can steal for her bedroom. Consider that Queen does not know about these things and is just adjusting and recreating things that people look up online, and that she knows about the protagonists. By and large she's probably just copying Ralsei's notes.

However, when we go to the Dark Sanctuary, we learn a couple of interesting things--

Ralsei is not telling the whole prophecy, and is in fact paraphrasing it for pacing and length.

Save for Ralsei, those are not the original symbols of the heroes.

This is how the hero looks:

Notice that instead of showing Kris, it's showing the player, the SOUL. It's a very specific difference; Kris is the cage and is included in the text, but the implication of showing the actual SOUL instead of them makes the prophecy ring a lot different.

The second hero, however, looks like this:

It's fun that they don't even call her a monster, just a girl, which could always mean some wild shit we don't know yet, but let's focus on the symbol-- if memory serves, this is the ACT symbol. For example, you can get this symbol on Kris's battle HUD if you call for Genson in the Dark Sanctuary:

It also looks a lot like Susie's Rude Buster, but not like the Rude Buster symbol, which is a magical flame.

Either way, then we go a bit further and get to the main point I'm trying to make:

That's not Susie.

Susie doesn't wield a sword. She has never wielded a sword. She has an axe.

The axe is so Susie's weapon that it materializes no matter what she's holding. It came pre-packed with her Dark World form, it's not something she chose-- she even has dialogue about how she doesn't know why she's carrying an axe, but, hey, axes are cool.

I believe this is supposed to be Dess, Noelle's older sister, for a few reasons

She's obviously a very important character who is absent, missing in such a way that has caused hurt on every character. We're shown that she's the first one to "leave" during Tenna's flashback to how it used to be in the Dreemurr/Holiday get-togethers, and her absence is deeply felt by everyone involved whenever her name comes up.

She's described as strong, incredibly cool, and overall the kind of person who would be a hero.

In conversations, Noelle mentions that Dess would hit Kris with a wiffle bat when they would lie to her until they stopped. Obviously two different weapon types, but a bat and a sword are a lot more like each other than a sword and an axe-- at least in how you hold it!

The rest of the Hero Girl prophecy mentions she would find love-- while Susie is obviously in love with Noelle, Dess is also pretty clearly flirting or secretly dating Asriel.

That's part one of the theory, part two is that instead of becoming one of the heroes, something happened to her (which seems to have involved a sacrifice?) that made it so that instead of becoming one of the three heroes, she became the Roaring Knight instead. Evidence for the Knight being Dess (as opposed to, say, Carol) is:

The Knight has antlers, the most obvious signifier that they're a Holiday. But also, did you notice what the sword looks like when the Knight summons it?

IT LOOKS LIKE A BAT. BAM BIG REVEAL MASSIVE PAYOFF. YOU THOUGHT I WAS STRETCHING BACK THERE. YOU THOUGHT I DIDN'T HAVE A PLAN. YOU'RE ALL STUCK IN HERE WITH ME.

Anyway the Knight also:

Attacks with stars -- like Christmas stars, above Christmas trees.

The Knight is horrifying-- and Dess was really into horror movies. She's in fact the reason why Noelle is into creepy things, even if they do genuinely frighten her.

The Knight is not physical-- it can obviously turn into a ball to fly around, but more important than that, it turns into pure static when you actually attack it. Garbage noise.

It almost looks like the Knight is some kind of distortion, like a hologram.

And then, one final thing related to both of these characters that I think is what's actually missing to understand what's going on between the Dreemurrs and the Holidays:

During Chapter 3, you can play the "real version" of a game Tenna has modified to be easier and more direct. In it, you control Kris, who goes through the game world doing a No Mercy run on enemies, then on their own friends, finally ending with a dungeon run where you slaughter a lot of monsters and flowers. This eventually rewards you with the Shadow Mantle you need to defeat the Knight. (if you're not a god and can perfectly dodge everything, that is)

In one of these, you encounter a different kind of enemy that has no equivalent in any other room. There's this thing that copies your movements, in a dark chamber.

If you go into the game's files, you can actually not only find out what this is, you can also lighten up this room.

It's a black deer.

This is probably the most direct reference to the Knight being a deer in the game (even if it's just in the files), but the final piece, the thing that actually makes me lose my mind, is the fact that there is actually a variable that turns the actual model into the "monster" you fight in this room. This variable is only used here. When you walk into the room, the variable turns to true, and the deer becomes the room's enemy.

The variable's name?

Toriel turns her into a monster.

So, here's my attempt at making sense of it all:

Dess was supposed to be one of the three heroes, wielding her bat as a sword.

Asgore and Toriel have something to do with whatever happened with Dess. Whatever they did tore apart their relationship with the Holidays, and their own marriage.

Whatever happened to Dess has been weaponized and whatever's left of her has become the Roaring Knight.

Susie's reaction to the final bit of prophecy likely has to do with someone dying by the hands of the Hero Girl, which she correctly points out would never happen in their specific group.

And she's right. It wouldn't. Because she's not the hero girl.

This also means Susie's going at this hero thing completely unaided by prophecy, 100% stoked on hopes and dreams, because she's the best. You can check out a video exploring more of the deer situation here.

now i know what you're thinking

if the hero is dess, why doesn't the church mural have antlers?

and the answer

might surprise you

OH SHIT A DOG

anyway that was it go away

[princeyralsei]

Someone MUST have said this already but what's crazy (and comforting) is that the deltarune prophecy has ALREADY been defied, and we know this for certain.

When Ralsei said that he hoped that if they were kind and spared everyone, there would be a different outcome, I don't even think he realized that he was right, even though the prophecy itself didn't change!

By sparing and recruiting the Pippins and Shadowguys in Chapter 3, they were LIKELY able to save Tenna from his fate in the prophecy, since he wasn't. yknow. completely cleaved I suppose. Regardless, he was never completely cleaved by blade.

Also, Queen's chariot IS STOPPED in chapter two's normal route

While The Fun Gang's (and the player's) pacifist choices have led to a similar outcome no matter what, they were able to change things that happen during the destination. There is absolutely hope after all that, in order to save both worlds, the final prophecy that Ralsei fears probably doesn't have to happen, or can be altered for the better.

[eric-r-malice]

Yo, I've not got a snappy hook for this, uh. Seen people theorizing that the end of the prophecy- the inevitability nobody wants to see happen- the panel Susie destroyed- was that Castle Town's dark fountain would have to be sealed.

I disagree. Lemme tell ya why, and also a little bit more, too.

First off, I may as well get the obvious point outta the way- read carefully. "TO SAVE THE WORLDS, THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY." The worlds. Worlds, plural. If we were sealing away all the dark worlds, wouldn't this be singular? After all, I wouldn't exactly refer to sealing an entire world away into nothing as "saving" it... we'd only really be saving the light world in that case, wouldn't we?

And that's usually the one counterpoint everyone uses to argue against this theory. But I think there's a lot more to it than just that. But we gotta look into the game's themes and metaphors.

So, what is a dark fountain? What are the dark worlds? Of course, in an in-universe sense, dark fountains are, well- fountains of darkness, negative light, created by stabbing into the earth with determination- and dark worlds are a different view of reality. The other side of pitch-black darkness.

But what are they? As in, what do they represent- what is their thematic purpose? Well- I suppose that might already be clear, right? They're metaphors for escapism. After all, every dark world thus far is themed after a different form of escapism-

Card Kingdom is themed around card games and board games- is there an umbrella term for that?

Cyber City is themed around the internet and computers

TV World is themed around television, and to an extent, videogames

Dark Sanctuary (all 3 of them) are themed around religion

(Flower King) is most likely going to be themed around one or several of gardening, anime/manga, and superheroes

Now, with this metaphor in mind, you can take another look at the game's story and lore, and make sense of it in a new light- too much darkness births a Titan. Too many dark fountains bring the roaring. What's the metaphor here? What's the game trying to tell us?

Too much escapism is detrimental.

And this makes sense! Too much of anything can be detrimental, even basic necessities such as food, water, and sleep- it's a good message to send. But now, let's think about what the game would be saying if we had to seal Castle Town's dark fountain- and thus, the dark world as a whole.

To me, that would be the game telling us... "all escapism is bad, and you should never do any of it." Which... well, why did we play the game, then, if it's just going to tell us that playing it at all was bad, and that we shouldn't have done it? It's just not a good or strong message to send, and I don't think it's one Toby would want to put in his game.

After all, escapism itself is not a bad thing. It's healthy to take a moment to engage in something that makes you feel good if life or the world is bringing you stress. Just don't overdo it.

Additionally, let's consider Ralsei for a moment. Ralsei- very obviously- does not hold himself, or the dark worlds in general- in very high regard, seeing them as "less real" than the light world. He tells Kris and Susie to make "real friends". He tells Tenna that Darkners aren't real, that they'll all become obselete, and that that's okay.

...and the game makes a big point that Ralsei is wrong about these things- particularly, through Susie. Susie insists that Ralsei is real- that he's one of her real friends. That he matters. And when Ralsei's words only serve to make Tenna feel worse, Susie steps up and gives a pep talk. Tells him that he doesn't have to take being thrown away. That he matters, and that he just needs to find the right people. And that's what cheers him right back up and gets him on your side.

Now, let's think about what these moments are saying to us, the player. What message is the game trying to convey here? Personally, I think this is the game telling us that these experiences- the stories we love, the characters we grow attached to- these all matter. They might not be "as real" as we are, but they can be real to us. And they can matter.

...don't you think that idea is incongruent with the idea of sealing Castle Town's grand fountain, when you consider the thematic implications? What- the game tells us in one moment that the fiction we love, while not real, still matters- and in the next, it's telling us that escapism is bad? It don't add up, chief.

And, for one last point, I'd like to quote user redactedtimes on Discord, as they made quite the compelling point about this themself that I didn't think of until he mentioned it.

To me the grand fountain kinda embodies everything about these stories that we take with us after we finish them. Our joy, what we learned about ourselves, that kinda thing. To seal it is to say that none of those actually mattered to you.

This is another really good point- and it has merit within the game's actual story, too! After all, you quite literally take everything back with you to Castle Town from all the other dark worlds. You bring back all the friends you made, and in a sense, all the experiences you had.

Thusly, to seal Castle Town's fountain would be to forsake all of this- to forsake everything you did, all the joy you had, all you learned, all the friends you made- all of it. To say that none of it mattered. To say that those friends, those games, those shows, those learning experiences... none of it mattered. None of it was real to you.

...however! redactedtimes did have a bit more to say that I think is quite interesting.

In other words: we 100% seal [the grand fountain] in the weird route

I think this is a really intriguing theory- and honestly, I believe it. After all, you're going far out of your way to do horrible things to these characters- traumatising them, abusing them, forcing them to grievously injure their friends- and for what? Because you can? To see what happens? To see if anything changes?

In a way, I think the weird route is a retake of the ideas behind Undertale's murder route. A commentary on completionism, and how far you're willing to push and tear apart this game's world just to see what'll happen. Just because you can. And because you "can", you "have to". Hope I quoted that line right...

Anyway- TL;DR: I don't think we're gonna seal the Castle Town fountain in the main route, because it'd go against the themes of the game, and when considering the game's themes, it would send a bad message. However, I could see it happening as a weird route exclusive thing.

[spam-monster]

Theory: The Plot of Deltarune is ANIME IS REAL

...okay it's more like about escapism and stuff but there's definitely some Evangelion-ass bs going on in here

"Abusive controlling parent manipulates a bunch of kids and their relationships in order to bring about end of the world in a way that will allow them to remain with their loved ones for eternity instead of fighting for free will and accepting the cycle of life and death and moving on"

Analysis/Theorycrafting longpost under the cut:

Part 1: Religious Cult being led by Carol trying to bring about the Roaring and the Angel's Heaven

Carol has learned part of the prophecy, and is trying to take control of the implementation of it by manipulating and controlling key figures within it: The Knight, The Angel, and one of the Heroes.

The Knight is Dess, corrupted by something in the shelter into becoming a dark twisted version of herself. The real Dess was implied to be rebellious and into a bunch of stuff their religious mother probably wouldn't have tolerated (punk, heavy metal, horror, etc). The Knight is twisted into an obedient servant who only works to further the cult's goals.

The Angel is Noelle, who has been groomed into a timid shell who is bad at saying no to authority figures and people she trusts. She is forced to act "pure" and suppress her own personality around others. In Undertale, the Angel was the one who would either save the world or doom it - the fact that Carol seems to encourage your manipulation and corruption of her daughter on the Weird Route (even against Kris's wishes) makes it seem like she wants Noelle to become a mindless killing machine who will destroy everyone without question or mercy.

Carol has also forced Kris into helping her create fountains somehow, even against the wishes of the other heroes, even though it involves painful manipulation of the SOUL that's been forced into their body. What has she promised Kris in return? Freedom? Fixing their parent's marriage? December and Noelle's safety?

Other members of the cult/those assisting her:

Father Alvin - As the center of religion in the town, he could easily be manipulated into helping bring about "Heaven" for the greater good. it's shown he has a low opinion of himself - perhaps Gerson's letter to him (as relayed by Susie) is not only encouraging him to write again, but to defy the prophecy and choose to do the right thing over mindless obedience?

Asgore - It's implied that he had something to do with Dess' disappearance, and whatever it was lost him his job and family and the respect of the town. And yet Carol has been supporting him and hiring him to take care of her house. Maybe he's being used as a scapegoat? He seems to think that there's something more going on, and is convinced that figuring it out will lead to everything going back to the way it was...but he's too trusting of Carol to question her involvement, and could also be being influenced by the dark shard he's been given.

The Voice - The same person who manipulated Jevil and Spamton and Tenna. Presumed to be Gaster but I'm just calling them Voice for now. Someone who is pulling the strings behind the scenes...even Carol's.

Part 2: The Corrupting Voice and The Angel's Heaven, and why the cult would want to bring it about

We know from Ralsei that the Roaring will destroy both the Dark and Light worlds. But many of the Dark World bosses were led to believe that the Dark Fountains would be good, or were worth the risks - King, Queen, Tenna, Spamton. Or like Jevil, they were driven mad to the point that they didn't care.

What if the Cult/Carol is being manipulated in the same way? What if they were led to believe that the Roaring would lead to Heaven, and Heaven would be a paradise?

We know now that the Dark World can, under certain circumstances when the Fountains are created by certain people, "resurrect" the dead monsters if their ashes are within the zone. We know that Rudy is dying, Dess is corrupted...what if Carol has been led to believe that The Angel's Heaven is your own personal Dark World where everything is as you want it forever?

Carol could keep her husband even after his passing and regain her daughter.

Asgore and Kris could live in a world where the Dreemur's marriage didn't fall apart and everyone is back together.

Even Susie could have a world of her own where her Darkener friends could hang out in the real world with her and she'd be a cool hero.

Nothing would have to change...Darkeners could be real, Lighteners would never lose anyone again...

But of course, it's a lie.

The Voice just wants destruction.

Part 3: What Happened, and What's Going to Happen

What happened to Dess?

She went into the Shelter, and came back wrong. Asgore fumbled her "rescue" somehow by:

Choosing to protect someone else over saving her.

Attacking her/keeping others away after she became violent.

Forcing everyone to close the Shelter instead of going in to look for her because of the dangers.

(In Undertale, Toriel left Asgore because he chose his kingdom over the lives of children. Thematically, it would make sense that he chose something else over saving Dess, and that's why he's disgraced.)

It's also possible that Rudy's illness could be something he contracted while searching the Shelter for Dess, and that's another reason Asgore forced them to stop.

Who corrupted her?

A. Her mother, who wanted to make her more obedient so she'd agree to become the Knight and help her bring Heaven.

B. The Voice, who then made a grieving Carol believe that she could get her daughter back and save her husband by helping them bring about Heaven.

I think B is more likely - Toby is good at making most of the antagonists have depth, so it makes more sense that Carol is doing horrible things because she believes it will fix her family and not For The Evils.

What will happen:

Weird Route - We manipulate Noelle into killing everyone in both worlds and get Bad End, and Gaster mocks us.

Normal Route: The prophecy plays out and the worlds are saved at a great cost.

Good Route - Susie is tempted by the promise of the Angel's Heaven and being able to escape her problems instead of dealing with the end of the Prophecy, but eventually she and us and Kris and Ralsei and Noelle and everyone band together to defy fate and save everyone, even if it means things change and there will still be loss.

(Practically, Carol wants Noelle x Soul/Kris because it makes her easier to manipulate for the prophecy, and is opposed to Noelle x Susie because Susie is the wildcard that could break free from the prophecy and change everything. Thematically, Christian Mom Does Not Approve Of The Lesbians.)

There's obviously a lot more stuff happening, like why do this? Who are we? What does the prophecy say will happen? Is Sans dating our mom or did he know shit was gonna go down at church and kept her away as a distraction so the Knight couldn't get to her?

But that was a hecking lot of theory for now. So later.

[krispdreemurr]

ive been going back and forth for a bit now on this: on some level i kind of feel like sword route should have had a little more consequence if you did it on an otherwise pacifist run. like i get why it doesnt (it could potentially read as labouring the point about the layers of the fiction if sword route altered things beyond kris' outlook) but also i kind of feel like it should have at least been mutually exclusive with saving tenna... especially with the changes in his bossfight if you do it, i feel like it would still make sense. plus it would potentially make the meaning less opaque to the notorious subset of utdr players who tend to misinterpret all things no mercy related. in general i feel like there should have just been a little more lasting consequence to your choice to do this. obviously we can't fully know yet what the outcomes of the wider secret boss scenario will be (and I'm starting to have serious doubts about how good it will be for us at large). overall though i think with the specific nature of what you have to do to get the mantle, and how it does affect kris' behaviour and the way they approach obstacles, it might have worked a little better if there were more unavoidable consequences to your file.

at the same time though i keep talking myself out of this thought process because i think its kind of important to the feel of sword route that it remains a game within a game with no lasting consequences to those outside of it. the plausible deniability feels important especially as commentary on us the players and the way we inevitably experience stuff like the weird route. but then again we literally did stab tenna to get him out of the way during the game... and there are multiple instances of characters asking kris whether they had fun with the game (increasingly clearly referring to the violence)... plus the increasingly obvious blurring of the lines between the fiction and the fiction-within-fiction... i dont know. i think maybe it would have been interesting for it to affect things more permanently. but also i think it having more permanent concrete effects potentially might have made it less compelling. sorry for basically rambling in your askbox and coming to no useful conclusion on this, but if you or any of your followers have thoughts on this id be very interested to hear them

i think, genuinely, the fact we seemingly "get away with it" is part of what's going on. like, no one knows what Kris was up to, everything goes away when the game is turned off, nothing has been altered... except, of course, that's not true. pixel kris has definitely done Something with ramb. kris has lingering desensitization. but you can still act normal, continue on like normal, etc.

it's connected to weird route in that regard too, honestly - isn't it weirdly low-consequence, through 2 and 3? isn't it the case that your dark world actions are invisible when you've left except for the mental marks left on Noelle and Kris and Berdly (counting being comatose as a mental effect)? can't you still recruit enemies, make friends, see all the major plot beats, and have a good time?

if something is contained and invisible from the outside - if it will have no consequences except on the mind - if you can safely walk away from it back into the normal world...

is that what makes it "okay" to do it?

would it be fine to do a no mercy run in Undertale if at the end Frisk logged out of a MMO they were playing and went back to daily life with no one the wiser?

is the arbiter of morality whatever you can get away with?

[leopardusk]

My first Deltarune fanart since the new chapters and it’s about these gay-ass detectives (well one is a detective. The others are just vibing mostly). Pluey and Jongler are not as into the mystery aspect but they support their boyfriend (and make sure he doesn’t dehydrate and die after being awake 9737392917 hours straight)

Here’s Battat’s entire yap if you wanted it

I’m just saying that it’s been four chapters and we still don’t have a clear answer on Mike and why he’s actually important. In the Spamton NEO a fight Spamton refers to Mike like a friend who might save him (he doesn’t) and Mike is also Tenna’s producer but also we’ve never seen him?? Has Tenna ever even seen him? Why would he even be a producer if Spamton sees him as a god kind of? Does this mean Spamton and Tenna know each other? Ex-lovers? Is Spamton’s Mike and Tenna’s Mike the same Mike? What if they’re different Mikes and it’s a massive coincidence that they share the same name? But what if it isn’t and Mike can take multiple forms? But why would he do that? What is he even trying to do? Is Mike the Knight? Is it WD Gaster’s steam username? What if Spamton got a spam call from Mike Hock and it’s all just a joke or a misunderstanding but that CAN’T be it because Mike is clearly important here because if he wasn’t then why would Tenna try to talk to him? Who was Mike before we became Mike? Does Tenna know that we aren’t the real Mikes? How the hell does he expect Mike to be able to rebuild his kids that’s stupid is he stupid is that just the answer is he just stupid? No it’s about Mike not Tenna so we need to look at the facts. Mike is short for microphone. Maybe. Or maybe it’s Michael. Michaelphone, fuck it. What else do we know? He can travel between dark worlds because Spamton knows him too, or maybe only Spamton can and Mike originated from TV land, in which case we’re back at square one. He’s omnipotent, probably. Does he know about us? Oh god is he mad at us for pretending to be him? Or maybe he’s flattered yeah that’s it he likes it. We just need to keep being Mike and then everything will be okay yeah things will make sense eventually. Pluey’s onto something. Engage the cats… it’s the cats the cats know the answer. We need to be cats. Yeah that makes sense. Microphone cats.

[maplethedarkshine]

I know my normal content isn’t about deltarune, but I’ve already had this EXACT dream twice and I need to get it out of my chest or else I’ll go insane

It’s chapter 3, the fun gang is on a casino area, have you ever played omori? It’s like that casino area, but bigger, green, and also it’s a prison because Tenna has you captured, so a colorful prison of gambling. The door is closed unless you have enough money, but it’s like, an impossible amount, and everyone, Sussie, Kris and Ralsei, get separated by Tenna in different parts of the casino, and everyone gets the money on their way. To continue normally you gotta gamble, and the slot machines there are rigged so you eventually do get the money.

But in the dream I didn’t do that, instead I just interacted with absolutely everyone else out of curiosity, and for some reason every time I did the game decided to violently steal the money. There’s no animation, just the narration test like “There’s a purse here, you want money?” “You snatched the purse, stole the money and tossed it to the floor, you go $20” and every time you select “yes” the description of stealing the money became more and more violent, I mean like to the point of triggering npc battles for the money (this is a battle free area).

And if you interact with everything you’ll get the money you need, but instead I interacted with everything again and again and again for someone reason, getting more and more money, the game kept pestering me about already having enough but for whenever reason I continued.

If you continue doing that you eventually get money than you need, like, a sickening amount of money, if I remember right it was just a bunch of 6. When you do, you get the weird route dingle, you know the one, and then you’ll have nothing else to do there, if you interact with anything it’ll just say “useless”, so you’ll proceed.

So, you get reunited. Ralsei congratulates you for getting so much money, but like, with an awkward smile, like if he knew something we don’t, and the fun gang gets reunited again. But when you open the door Tenna intercepts you and scolds Kris for making such a chaos on his poor casino, he goes “Boys! Get ‘em” and the fun gang gets surrounded by enemies, like the transition to the castle in chapter 1.

The screen goes black and kris is alone in a blue hallway with a save point that goes to the right. Idk what was there, probably the normal route. Because I went left, for some reason. It was a dead end but I continued and walked out of bounds for like about a minute.

Then you get transported to another area. There’s the egg room music but no egg man. It’s a gray labyrinth of Catacombs, and the echo of Kris’ steps is louder than the music. Anyways, you find your way, and between the door of the exit there’s… Berdly? For someone reason? And then he says like.

“Hey Kris”

“Did you that freezing your milk helps it to not spoil?”

“In a way it’s almost like”

“Freezing it it’s making it last forever”

“…”

“I’m joking”

“You haven’t done anything good here”

“You know what you did”

Then he goes through the door.

You go to the door too, but Berdly isn’t there anymore, it’s just a big ass hall where you can run. So you walk and walk and walk. You get in the background distant sound of Ralsei and Sussie talking, like what happened with Lancer in chapter one. Every once in a while you’ll get talking boxes. The sprites are correct, but the text isn’t. Either it’s empty dialogue boxes, half the letters are missing, or the text it’s corrupted. That goes on for a minute, then you get a Ralsei box dialogue. The music cuts up suddenly. His talking sprite is normal, he’s even smiling, but he doesn’t have a voice sound, and the font used it’s distorted, but still understandable.

“WHAT ‘ONE ENDING’?”

You get to the end of the hall, and as soon as you open a door… Something spawns behind you and you need to run. Have you ever played Omori? It’s like the cat chase sequence but harder. The creature it’s a black and white big thing, I would call it Gaster, it’s probably meant to be him, but distorted beyond recognition. You run through a labyrinth and you can’t almost see shit. The sound is loud as fuck, I’m calling it sound because music it wasn’t. I don’t know how to describe it, it’s like the echo of distant screaming and wet sound of meat.

So anyways, every time the creature got to me there was this loud, incoherent, glitchy sound, and the screen went to black. It was a game over, but instead of getting the game over screen you just got placed back to the last checkpoint, the one before the Catacombs, remember? On the blue hallway, and well, I had to do it again. And again and again and again.

It wasn’t a softlock, it pretty much was possible to win, I just have a skill issue even in my dreams, so I eventually ragequitted and that’s when I woke up

And that I’ve already dreamed of TWICE so I need to make it public because I do NOT want that fuck ass dream again

[godisasimp]

Surely Spamton being associated with an Almagamate isn't important noooo just a funny "jumpscare".

[runesofthedelta]

Let me give something to ponder...

SPoilers for Deltarune below.

First off... That's not Kris' soul.

The game's intro tells us outright-- That soul is Us, or our avatar. Hell, it acts like the soul from UT--it'll change color depending on the circumstance, its free going. The only thing that's missing is the capacity to Run.

And as we control the soul, we control Kris (erm, for the Most Part). But our Soul can be Removed by Kris.

Kris is not the Soul. They have reactions that aren't our decisions. (I personally theorize that Kris provides us options to choose, both consciously and unconsciously, when we make decisions... Until we do something Fucked Up, then we're on our own).

In which case... Kris should have a soul, presumably a Red Soul (Because if Chara from UT is any indication, those of a certain soul color will be attracted to and attach to, souls of that color).

... Where is it.

And secondly.

How did Kris get their soul replaced by Ours?

Second off.

We made a Vessel. That vessel was "Discarded", but I'd say, that Vessel was discarded as OUR vessel. Meaning it could be still be used. Since its a vessel for a Red Soul...

Whatever or whoever, replaced Kris' Soul with us, had to put that soul somewhere where...

A) it wouldn't Kill Kris in the process B) It wouldn't wander off like ours does

Why not place it in the Discard Vessel?

Third.

We can say that Kris opened two Dark Fountains. One, we know, in our home. The first? In the Computer Lab, the night before.

And yet, it was the Knight, who turned the Queen and Tenna. For the Queen, anyone could've entered that Computer Lab before Berdly and Noelle.

But the third Dark World? It would require the Knight to have already been present in that world, likely in the same way Ralsei is.

That suggests Darkener.

And yet, the Knight can run out of the Dark World, and is strong enough to outdo Undyne herself.

That suggests Lightener.

Suggestion.

What if the Knight, is our Vessel but with Kris' original soul? The Vessel is meant to be our container, after all, for interacting with the world, and we're a very Powerful Soul. That means a very powerful body. That also means, given our nature, being able to transcend light and dark.

Now give it a child's soul that Isn't Us.

Suddenly, we've have a strange knight figure that seems to follow our actions--or rather, follow Kris' actions.

They'd be our literal reflection. The Shadow. The True Self. What we, or rather, who Kris truly is, in the Dark.

Being directed by an outside Force.

Four.

Carol Holiday knows Our Nature. She's likely the mysterious voice on the phone call, directing Kris' actions and is who the Soulless Kris reports to in the Light World...

( After all, why would she come home early? )

... Whilst the Knight would report to her from the Dark. The Knight uses her sword, or something akin to it, found in her bedroom. Made with the same black shard. the Knight's horns resemble hers.

And she is obsessed with collecting heart-shaped objects.

What if...

She discarded our vessel, to make it a vessel for Kris' soul, and replaced Kris' with us? Or at least, maybe helped Kris do it, if Kris had a choice (which implications say, they didn't. Kris' discomfort with Jevil and Spamton and Tenna's Real Game, suggest that Kris knows the story all too well--they wanted freedom, they're being directed by an outside force (from a phone), and in the end, they will be discarded like a vessel.

Five.

Why would she do this?

Initially? Maybe to find Dess.

Maybe to Save Rudy, after all, Gerson shows that one can be resurrected in Darkness after they die.

... But it didn't continue that way. There's another game going on here. Why attack the child of your husband's best friend, and switch out the souls? Did Kris agree, and thus, as the Knight through a different body, is serving faithfully?

( This I doubt. Kris' nature is tricky, but they aren't cruel. Performing cruel and terrible acts greatly disturbs Kris. And a lot of what Soulless Kris does? Is very disturbing. Destroying her mother's car tires? Attempting to destroy Dess' things, an old friend who disappeared, so that we don't catch a peak of a code? the fact that they consume Chocolate and not Kris' favorite food, Pie? )

Or was it a trick? As the only human in town, Kris' human soul is very useful. And as the best childhood friend of Noelle, they're easily accessible.

All it would take is a phone call.

[gigglegirlhappy]

Deltarune Chapter 3 spoilers ahead! Zero mention of Chapter 4, though.

I played Deltarune Chapter 3 when it came out on June 4th (watch the VOD on my twitch!) and something I noticed was that the chapter felt a lot more stale than the first two chapters. There were a lot of recycled themes and ideas, not only borrowed from Chapters 1 and 2, but original ideas from Chapter 3 that were also recycled into oblivion. The over reliance on recycled content made me feel a sense of fatigue throughout the game show segment of the chapter, to the point where I audibly groaned when the bonus round was announced.

Round one was genuinely fun. I adored the NES Zelda inspiration for the gaming segments, as I’ve played the original Zelda before and I could fully appreciate the callbacks. The physical challenge was interesting in concept, though the way Kris controlled was deeply frustrating to me in particular (why can’t I adjust where they land while they’re in the air?). This is like, 65% a skill issue on my part, so I’m not docking Toby for that particular challenge.

Round two is where things started feeling stale. The NES Zelda thing was back, and most of the assets were reused from the first round. It was okay, but it felt repetitive, and it dragged for longer than I’d like. The physical challenge was a lot better, but it wasn’t enough to get rid of the bland taste in my mouth.

The bonus round was dogshit. I wanted the show to end by the time the bonus round was brought up as a possibility. I had my fun, but I was over it, and I wanted to get on to more traditional Deltarune gameplay. It took me a while to figure out how to escape Tenna’s looping dialogue, and it was giving serious 2011 creepypasta vibes. It was only after I figured out how to turn the program off that I started really feeling like I was playing Deltarune again.

This was entirely intentional, and it’s wonderfully masterful storytelling.

See, this is actually a commentary on Tenna’s own fear of obsolescence and abandonment. Tenna is so scared to death of being thrown away that he puts on a wacky, desperate performance slathered in nostalgia to make people like him, and when it works, he keeps going until he overstays his welcome because that’s all he knows how to do. The same content over and over, no matter how great it once was, will grow stale over time. Tenna mentions something in his boss fight about having burn-in, which is generally what happens to older TVs when they play the same content over and over (Switch 1 users remember this concern with the OLED screens). Reruns are Tenna’s bread and butter, it’s what he knows, so naturally once he finds his niche, he milks it until the sweetness turns sticky and overpowering.

This reminds me of a wonderful visual novel produced by Black Tabby Games. Slay the Princess: The Pristine Cut is a game where you must slay a princess locked in a cabin to save the world, among other things. It’s a wonderful commentary on the choices we make, the perspectives we offer and the nature of life, death, entropy and how they’re all a necessary part of the human experience, and everyone should play it at least once.

Now, there are several routes this game has to offer, and one of these routes has a chapter that echoes Deltarune Chapter 3’s theming almost beat for beat. I’m talking about the epilogue chapter, Happily Ever After.

Happily Ever After seats the Long Quiet (TLQ from now on) across the Princess. A shadowy figure hovers behind her, a figure we later learn is one of the many voices TLQ can encounter in the game, the Voice of the Smitten. Now, Smitten is bent on keeping both the Princess and TLQ in the cabin, because if the Princess leaves, the story (and the world, I guess) ends, and he loses her. Smitten does this by providing them with bountiful feasts and wonderful games, and they’re fun at first, but as the Princess and TLQ continue to eat and play, things get less fun until the food needs to be choked down and the game becomes a slog to get through.

Eventually, the Princess has no choice but to admit that she’s sick of Smitten’s efforts to keep her in the cabin, that she had fun at first, but now that she’s done the same stuff over and over, now that she’s avoided change in every way Smitten can think of, she’s tired of putting off the inevitable, and she’s ready to leave the cabin with TLQ by her side (as she’s barred from leaving by herself). TLQ takes her by the hand, they leave both Smitten and the cabin behind, and they dance under the stars in a brief but beautiful last hurrah before the world is consumed by entropy.

As previously implied, Tenna’s character arc in Deltarune Chapter 3 is almost identical to Smitten’s during Happily Ever After. Both Tenna and Smitten have a fear of abandonment and losing someone important for them. For Tenna, it’s Kris and their family, and for Smitten, it’s the Princess. Of course, neither Tenna or Smitten can prevent someone from leaving them behind, regardless of their efforts. Kris and the Princess are the ones with power in their respective dynamics. Kris can choose to let Toriel get rid of Tenna, and the Princess can choose to leave Smitten and the cabin with TLQ. The most they can do is put on a grand performance to convince them why they’re worth keeping around. At the tail end of each respective chapter, both Tenna and Smitten express unbearable boredom at their own content too, but they keep producing anyway because they can’t handle what might happen if they stop and give Kris/the Princess the opportunity to leave them behind. They don’t have any power here. They’re just groveling at the feet of those they care about, trying desperately to stay relevant in a world that changes faster than they can hope to catch up.

I think this makes Tenna and Smitten great insights into how a deep seated fear of abandonment can result in repetitive, desperate behavior patterns. I also think Tenna and Smitten should kiss sloppy style. This entire analysis was a flimsy excuse to ship these idiots. I’m calling the ship Telenovela. Fuck you, goodnight.

[dirt-apple-productions]

Got caught up to Deltarune. Here are my scattered thoughts on it. Oh yeah, also, if you can’t handle the concept of a male Kris respectfully, just block me now and save us both the headache, please and thank you. 🫶🏻

P.S. In case it wasn’t clear, I am not interested in arguing over Kris’ gender in any capacity and anyone trying to start a debate with me will be blocked. I just want to enjoy funni modern retro game.

I think that Mr. Tenna might be a slave of Mike like Spamton was, and Mike is definitely lurking in the shadows and I feel like Ralsei confirmed at the beginning that Mike is a Darkner (and possibly also Endogomy from Undertale judging by the shape). We got more lore about the creepy smile in Queen's basement last chapter too.

I had a feeling the Dark Worlds were similar to the Cognitive Realm in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere. I have a theory that Ralsei is the Dark World version of Asriel. That, or Asriel has died and Ralsei represents something he dearly loved. The Darkners keep talking about Asriel as if in the past tense, which is bizarre.

I love the metaphor for the player puppeting Kris with them playing video games on Mr. Tenna's game show.

Btw I love Elnina and she's my new bestie

I am so relieved the throuple broke up. Cloud Girl and Moon Boy forever.

RIP Mr. Tenna, you will be missed. I actually adore his character and I teared up when he died. I can relate so hard to the feeling of being obsolete and unloved and the fear of stepping out and finding someone who will still love you and treat you the way you deserve. Also thank God the Knight isn’t Kris. That would have been so dumb.

I also love how Ralsei’s bullshit martyr complex was deconstructed by Susie. She’s such a badass. I wonder if her parents are dead - she seems old enough to live by herself and she seems to see Kris’ mom as kind of a mother figure.

Why did Kris know the code to the shed. Why.

UNDERTALE!UNDYNE. I’M CALLING IT NOW.

I think Kris made a deal with Mike similarly to Tenna and Spamton and then Mike abandoned him in chains just like the other two. My guess is Kris’ deal had something to do with the divorce and Asriel leaving for college.

Chapter 4 has the best Dark World so far by a country mile. I absolutely love it.

WHAT IS KRIS’ CONNECTION TO CAROL HOLIDAY???

I assume the old man is going to live in the castle town?

I think the Knight is Dess Holiday.

I think Kris is talking either with Mike or the Knight on the phone.

I think the Last Prophecy was that saving the world would come at the cost of Ralsei’s life.

I love how Kris absolutely HATES Sans. Maybe that was the wish he made to Mike - for Toriel and Asgore to get back together?

How did Tenna survive the Knight? Still confused on that.

I’m even more of a Ralsusie shipper than I’ve ever been before. I cannot overstate how good their chemistry is in comparison to Suselle. I just…never got the sense Susie liked Noelle at all honestly.

What was Kris’ promise? Does this have something to do with the wish he made to Mike?

Edit: I just realized every instance of “Mike” is actually the Knight. Just replace the names I’m too lazy to edit

[viderchia-vivianne]

deltarune theory about the roaring knight, keep in mind there are spoilers for chapter 3 and 4 in here!!

The roaring knight has holes on their hands

The roaring knight might probably be dess, and we know kris is working with them at least somewhat.

In the images for the prophecy, there are TWO knights When you inspect a shadow crystal by yourself...

Kris's description when you get the black shard from defeating the knight also changes.

It should be noted Susie's also changes to this, and ralsei's changes to this:

I think the ending of the prophecy is that kris WILL become the second knight, and it will be nearly unstoppable unless you take the weird route where it is in some way averted. I think they also have horns on their head because the knight, in some way, represents wanting to escape into fantasy forever. Whenever they down a party member, they're "Swooned"

I think that because of this, the horns represent kris's horn headband they used to own when they wanted to blend into life with monsters. More so speculation here: I also feel like the consoles shown in chapter 3 are what is being displayed as the only route kris can take to break this cycle, but kris isn't willing to do it. I think that at some point kris got in contact with gaster to who brought the player into the world, as they are the only one who had the determination (lack of a better word) to find the secret bosses and carry out the weird route. This is why Kris freaks out more at the secret bosses that are past Jevil but are generally reactionless to everything else, they genuinely never got to this point in their own time through resetting the world on their save files. We can see we had to overwrite kris's file before which is what makes me think this. This does have some holes though. I also think that it's very possible that the weird route is sort of an "original" prophecy, said to eventually always come true, and the current prophecy we know has overwrote it, and the ending of the weird route is reviving it to give kris freedom. This is less solid but I feel like it's somewhat intentional with how the console game kris plays is practically the original zelda, while the one we play during the main chapter 3 segments is an altered version that's more friendly and funny. I think that they are definitely meant to parallel no mercy and pacifist from the original undertale, though. With the original game being what is essentially a real, genuine game despite how fucked up it is, while tennas version is a goofy and fun adventure that, although fun, eventually grows stale and hollowed out the actual original "game" aspect of the game.