#Best Video Transcription | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

andersunmenschlich · 11 months

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A Vanishing Post

There was a Tumblr post containing a video of two interviews done by the same interviewer, one with someone from Hamas, the other with someone from Israel.

I reblogged this post and saved it as a draft because I intended to add a transcript (and summary).

The post disappeared from my drafts. I went to the blog where I'd seen it, and it wasn't there either. I couldn't remember any other usernames. I couldn't remember the interviewer's name or the names of the people they were interviewing.

I'm a stubborn cuss, however, and I pummeled Google until it turned up the video I remembered.

The interviewer was a man named Marc Lamont Hill, the host of Al Jazeera English's current affairs program Up Front. The person from Hamas was Osama Hamdan, the senior spokesperson for Hamas, and the person from Israel was Danny Ayalon, Israel's former deputy foreign minister and former foreign policy advisor to Netanyahu. The date was October 13, 2023.

A Brief Summary

Hamas shot rockets from Gaza into Israel, then attacked multiple places on foot, killing people and taking hostages. Israel cut off Gaza's food, water, electricity, etc., and started bombing it.

Interviewer: Hamas, why did you attack civilians?

Hamas: Civilians, non-civilians, potayto, potahto. They're invaders who have been stealing our land and lives, killing our men and women and children, for 75 years.

Interviewer: How can you attack Israel when you know the retaliation will kill innocent Palestinians?

Hamas: Israel is always killing innocent Palestinians no matter what we do. They kill us if we're violent. They kill us if we're peaceful. And no one in the world cares. We might as well at least try to resist.

Interviewer: Israel, why are you hurting and killing everyone in Gaza, civilians included?

Israel: It's Hamas's fault—they won't surrender and they won't let the civilians leave. So we're going to keep hurting and killing those civilians until Hamas either surrenders or lets the civilians leave. This is all Hamas's fault. Look what they're making us do!

Interviewer: Hurting and killing civilians is bad.

Israel: Yes, but it's not our fault! We're not bad! The whole world is on our side because we're in the right here! Hamas is bad! They're making us kill innocent Palestinians! .

full transcript below readmore

Hill On October 7th, Hamas launched a barrage of rockets from Gaza, followed by a coordinated incursion into Israel by Hamas fighters. Scores of unarmed civilians were killed and many taken hostage. In response to the attack, Israeli prime minister Netanyahu swore, quote, "a mighty vengeance" against the group.

Israel has since retaliated with a complete siege of Gaza, launching air strikes that razed entire districts, killing hundreds and injuring thousands in the Palestinian enclave.

On today's show we'll delve deep into the conflict. Coming up in the second half of the show, we'll speak to the former deputy foreign minister for Israel and former foreign policy advisor to Netanyahu, Danny Ayalon. With us first is senior spokesperson for Hamas, Osama Hamdan.

[cut, show title]

Hill Osama Hamdan, senior spokesperson for Hamas, thank you so much for joining me on Up Front.

Hamdan Thank you.

Hill On October 7th, Hamas launched an attack when they launched thousands of rockets into Israel. Militants entered the country and took scores of civilians hostage, including women, children, and the elderly.

While the right of resistance is absolutely secured for all occupied people under international law, the use of force is not unlimited, and targeting civilians and taking hostages are war crimes.

How can you justify attacking civilian targets?

Hamdan Well, thank you for having me. First of all, I have to say that this is the story from the Israeli side, which is not really true. I have to turn you to Oren Ziv, who is an Israeli journalist. He was today in Kfar Aza settlement, and he said there is no evidence that Hamas slaughtered children.

I'm sorry that the Israeli government is using that to commit its crimes in Gaza.

So this is the first part of the answer: we have also some Israelis who are telling this has not happened, and it's used—it's a story, a fake story, used to kill more Palestinians. But this is the, the other part—

Hill But the question was "how do you justify attacking civilian targets?" That was the actual question. One second, nono, the question was "how can you justify attacking civilian targets."

Hamdan You are asking the wrong question.

Hill No, no, no; the question was "how can you justify attacking civilian targets."

Hamdan You are asking—you are asking the wrong question.

Hill We may disagree on what the right question is, but I do want—I would like you to answer this question. How do you justify attacking civilian targets?

Hamdan But this is a wrong question. This is a wrong question, and I'm not going to the same game of the Israelis.

Hill I'm asking a very clear question about civilians. Let—let me ask a very direct question: have any civilians been killed?

Hamdan Well, I don't know exactly, because this is what is told by the Israelis. What I'm telling you is that for this Israeli government—

Hill You—you just cited Oren Ziv: he says civilians were killed.

Hamdan No, he didn't say—he said, "no evidence that children were slaughtered."

Hill [incoherent sound]

Hamdan I don't—I don't—

Hill He said—he said, "dozens of bodies of Israelis murdered in their homes."

Hamdan Excuse me!

Hill Those were his words.

Hamdan You are—you are wasting the time. It's your time. It's not my time. You are wasting the time.

Hill All right, let's pause for a moment, sir. My question is, if you find out that civilians have been killed, would you consider that justified or would you consider that unjustified?

Hamdan There is—three hundred children have been killed today in Gaza by the Israelis. Two hundred women have been killed today, by the Israelis, in Gaza. One thousand two hundred children were injured. One thousand women were injured today, just today and yesterday, in Gaza.

You are asking me the wrong question. You have to ask about what is happening in Gaza, which is under the siege for the last seventeen years, which is under the offensive Israeli attack for the last four days.

You keep asking about the Israelis: why don't you ask about the Palestinians?

Hill So, so that's a—that's a fair—

Hamdan Can I understand that you don't care about the Palestinians?

Hill Sir, sir, sir, that's a, that is a fair question, that—

Hamdan Excuse me! I have to continue. You are asking about the Israelis. You don't ask about the Palestinians. No one cares about the Palestinians. This is the story: the story is the occupation. 75 years of occupation for the Palestinians. We have to talk about the occupation and how the Palestinians are looking to—for this occupation, and how can we make an end for this occupation.

This is the story! It's not the story about what you are asking about.

Hill Okay, I—I, I understand your perspective. To be clear, after this interview I will be interviewing a representative of the Israeli military, and I will be asking him about Israel's war crimes.

I absolutely acknowledge that Israel has committed war crimes. In fact, I have written a book with a whole chapter about Gaza and the war crimes that have been committed against Gaza there, so please do not suggest to me that I do not take this issue seriously. However—

Hamdan Thank—thank you—

Hill However, let me finish, I—I allowed you to finish—

Hamdan —thank you for clarifying that—

Hill —yeah, so, so now—

Hamdan —thank you for clarifying that, but I also—

Hill —now that—sir, sir—

Hamdan —you can't compare—

Hill —sir, I—I'm not comparing anything, but—

Hamdan Okay.

Hill —please allow me to finish. My question for you is, "Is everyone living inside a settlement a legitimate military target for Hamas?"

Hamdan According to the international law, the settlers are not civilians.

Hill So, sir, again, human rights organizations have said the legal status of settlements under international humanitarian law does not negate the rights of the civilians living there.

The fact that a person lives in a settlement, whether legal or not, does not make him or her a legitimate military target.

So, in light of the fact that human rights organizations would argue that even if settlements are illegal the people living inside of them are still considered civilians, how do you see, moving forward, Hamas's vision of whether or not settlements are legitimate military targets?

Hamdan Well, uh, the "legitimate" thing which I believe in is that Palestine is our land.

Our people are living on our land, challenging the occupation for the last 75 years. On those 75 years, the women, the children were killed by the Israeli soldiers, the Israeli settlers. Their homeland was taken. They were replaced by Israelis who came from everywhere in the world. They talk different languages and they claim that this land is for them.

If you ask any one of them about the grave of his father, he will take you to Poland, or to Argentina.

But if you ask any Palestinian about the grave of his seventeenth grandfather, he will take you to some place in Palestine, showing you the graves, telling you, "This is where my seventeenth grandfather was buried"—or maybe before that.

We are in this land from the days of Jesus Christ! Don't ask me about those settlers and those soldiers who are killing my people every day, every time—and this is the fact which creates the resistance of the Palestinians. The Palestinians did not start the war.

Hill Let's talk about the Israeli response to the Hamas attack, which has been horrific.

Israel is bombing Gaza and has declared a complete siege. It's cut off food, fuel, and water from being admitted to over two million people. Thousands of Palestinians are going to die. One resident from Khan Yunis said, "This is a bloody war that is different from previous wars. What is going on right now is total annihilation."

We see this horrific response by the Israeli government—my question for you is, "Have the actions of Hamas over the past week made things worse for Palestinians on the ground?"

Hamdan The Israelis have done this before. They did that in 2014. They cut the electricity from Gaza, in 2014, for seventeen days. They cut the aid for the hospitals. In 2014, two thousand five hundred Palestinians were killed. In 2021, more than one thousand Palestinians were killed. No one remembers the numbers, because they are only Palestinians.

But I want to tell you, they were shocked by what had happened to their army. Eleven military points were attacked by the militants of Hamas. The soldiers were killed, or taken as war prisoners, and the Israelis were shocked. This is the main troops attacking Gaza for the last ten years: they fall down in a few hours. This is a shock! They want to get back the image of Israel army. They want to show everyone that Israel can destroy everyone—

Hill That's an interesting point, sir—

Hamdan —by the supervision of the American and the support of the—

Hill —that's, that's an important point you're making. You're saying that Israel sort of commits to a certain kind of response when it looks bad; that Israel responds disproportionately, and that Israel already wants to use this as a pretext for destroying the Palestinian people.

I'm saying, if you know that's going to happen, then how do you calculate the decision to launch an attack, knowing that a university is going to be bombed, knowing that power is going to be cut off, knowing that fuel's going to be cut off, knowing that people are going to die because of the Israeli response—if you know that, why do you still make the attack?

Particularly when the Palestinian people don't have a say in whether or not that's going to happen?

Hamdan This is a good question. You know, the fact that the Israelis are killing the Palestinians on all the ways, all the times.... For example, in West Bank, in the last ten months, more than five hundred Palestinians were killed.

Most of them were civilians. They were shot in the streets, just demonstrating peacefully against the Israeli troops!

The fact that everyone has to understand is that this occupation is killing the Palestinians all the time. He's not giving them any chance to have normal lives. He's not giving them the chance to be independent and to have their independent sovereign state—even after thirty years of signature of Oslo agreement, he's not implementing any international resolutions. He doesn't care about the international law.

So we are facing this fact: the Israelis are killing you if you are treating them peacefully or if you are resisting them.

At the end of the day, the occupation is still there. So it's better to resist than be slaughtered daily without even resisting the occupation.

Hill What was the goal of last week's actions? What was the immediate goal of last week's actions—what would you say the target or goal was?

Hamdan The goal is to make an end for the Israeli attacks against the Palestinians. To make an end for the Israeli attacks on Jerusalem, [place name I couldn't catch], in West Bank; taking over the lands and to lift the siege on Gaza.

The Israelis are planning for a long, long occupation on Palestine, and I think if they don't get the lesson from what has happened the last four days: this army will not protect them. Their violence will not protect them. Even if they were supported by the United States. If they want to be protected, they have to acknowledge the Palestinian rights and to implement the international resolutions which gave the Palestinian people their rights—without negotiations.

Those are rights. No one can negotiate our rights.

Hill Osama Hamdan, thank you so much for joining me on Up Front.

Hamdan Thank you.

[cut]

Hill We tried repeatedly to get an Israeli Army spokesperson on the show to respond to Hamas, but they canceled the scheduled interviews. For more on the developments in Gaza, we are joined by Israel's former deputy foreign minister and a former foreign policy advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Danny Ayalon.

[cut, show title]

Hill Danny Ayalon, thank you so much for joining me on Up Front.

Ayalon My pleasure.

Hill Danny, last Saturday, the 7th, Hamas launched a devastating attack. Thousands of rockets were fired towards Israel, and hundreds of Hamas fighters crossed into the country. There are reports of horrific killings of Israeli civilians: a clear, clear violation of international law.

In response, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu threatened to turn the Gaza Strip into, quote, "rubble," and the government announced a, quote, "complete siege of the enclave."

Since then, we've seen mass bombing in Gaza, with reports that hundreds of civilians have been killed—and while the actions of Hamas are a clear, and I want to emphasize that, a clear violation of international law, isn't the collective punishment of all Gazans also, by definition, a war crime?

Ayalon Not really, because the situation is very clear.

You know, as you mentioned—rightly so—Hamas perpetrated an attack (which was a surprise attack, the IDF was caught unprepared), and they got a major victory for the first 24 hours: but who was this victory against? Babies and children and all families that were massacred in bed. The IDF was nowhere to be seen. When the IDF came back, now, they pushed them back into Gaza.

Now, the problem with Hamas is that they're committing a double war crime, because they are targeting only civilians, and they're using their own civilians, the poor Palestinians of Gaza, as human shields.

What Israel did gave them a fair warning, and I think this is the only way to do with them, is we told the Gazan people to clear the area temporarily so we can go and take Hamas out—and then, of course, they can come back.

So this, by definition, is not a war crime.

We understand the plight of the Palestinians. They deserve their dignity and everything else. But nothing justifies butchering families.

You know, this day, as you mentioned, the 7th of October, was the day that more Jews were killed in 24 hours than any other day since the Holocaust. So you see, I mean—

Hill Without—without question, respectfully, this is a devastating moment. An extraordinary act of violence that, again, is a violation of international law. But you said a couple of things that I want to push you on.

The idea of collective punishment is one of the things that we're talking about here.

Electricity has been cut. Power has been cut. Fuel has been cut. The Gazan people right now are being punished for the actions of Hamas. How is that not, by definition, collective punishment?

Ayalon Two things. First of all, Hamas has turned Gaza into an enemy state. So there is no law, nothing in international law, that compels a country you are in a war with, to supply them the electricity. Now, what do they use the electricity for?

Hill As, as—as an occupying power, international law does say that you have certain responsibilities by law... but before we get there, even if we—we'll hold it for a moment, the power thing—there are residential buildings being hit. There are hospitals being hit. This is a densely populated area. The idea of being able to run away or to escape or go to a safe area seems impossible.

Also, according to your own military representatives, you've abandoned the idea of knocking on roofs: that is to say, giving a warning, of dropping a non-explosive munition on buildings before people go.

So people aren't getting a warning, they have nowhere to go, residential buildings, schools, and hospitals are being hit.

How is this not, again, an act of collective punishment, and how is this not a target of civilians—unless, of course, you're regarding everybody in Gaza as an enemy combatant?

Ayalon Okay, well, I hear you, I hear you. But again, what we gave the population is a fair warning.

What would you do, you know, what would you do if—

Hill What—what, what was the fair warning? This—I just want to make sure we're on the same page here. Benjamin Netanyahu told everyone to leave the area. Where were they to go?

Ayalon Okay. Very, very—I mean, this was thought out. It's not something that we tell them, "Go to the beaches, go drown yourselves," God forbid, not at all. There is a huge expanse, almost endless space in the Sinai Desert just on the other side of Gaza.

The idea is—and this is not the first time it will be done—the idea is for them to leave over to the open areas where we and the international community will prepare the infrastructure. You know, ten cities with food and with water. You know what, just like for the refugees of Syria that fled the butchering of Assad a few years ago to Turkey. Turkey received two million of them. This is the idea.

Now, Egypt will have to play ball here, because once the population is out of sight, then we can go. You know what the Palast—what the, what Hamas did. You know, we—

Hill When the—you said, "the population out of sight," is that practically possible in such a densely populated area?

And, and forty—you have two million people in a densely populated enclave. Forty-seven percent of the inhabitants are children. Is it reasonable or plausible to think that all those people are going to relocate to this excluded area and be safe from a bombing attack? And again, the warn—we're saying there's warnings, but there are numerous reports on the ground that there are no warnings, that people are getting hit, that families have been killed from these attacks!

Ayalon I'll tell you in a practical manner what we should do and what we can do. Create, like in the past, in history, a humanitarian corridor. When there is a humanitarian corridor—and we have been discussing this with the United States—then we can guarantee, in this corridor, that nobody will get hurt.

Now, again I say there is a way to receive them all on the other side for temporary time in Sinai. Because, what did Hamas turn out on Gaza, Gaza—

Hill On the other side? Are we talking about—are you, are you saying, "the other side," they go to Egypt?

Ayalon Yes. Absolutely, absolutely, and Egypt will have to play ball because this is—human life is at stake, and if you are—

Hill [disbelieving laugh] But, but sir, human life is at stake because you're cutting off power, you're, you're shutting down hospitals, you're bombing residential buildings—

Right now, there is a hospital that does not have sufficient power. There is a hospital where people are literally going to die. And Israel's energy minister Israel Katz said, "No electrical switch will be turned on, no hydrant will be open, no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home."

Now, the ICRC spokesperson Hisham Mhanna said that by cutting that power "hospitals are going to turn into graveyards."

This is not an ideologue. This is the International Committee of the Red Cross. They're saying that because of your country's actions—not the actions of Hamas, not the actions of Egypt, but because of Israel's actions—the hospitals are going to turn into graveyards.

How is that not a war crime? How is that defensible by any standard?

Ayalon First of all, the war crime, if anything, is Hamas. They are the ones. And I know exactly what you're talking about. Hamas does not allow—sometimes, when they can, they keep those civilians captive. They don't allow them to run away, because this is what they want.

Now, I know the area. And I suppose you're talking about the main hospital, which is the Shifa Hospital.

Hill Yep.

Ayalon The Shifa Hospital has been turned into a Hamas bunker. If Hamas wants to save them, they should just leave their arms, come out, and nothing will happen. But as long as they keep the Shifa Hospital, just like schools and kindergartens, as bunkers and they fight out from there, there is no law—there is no law in this universe that protects them. And this is what we're doing, and this is why the world is—

Hill Sir, sir! Sir, is there any independent reports—are there any intelligence reports that show that the Shifa Hospital is primarily a Hamas bunker and not an actual medical site?

Ayalon Yes, and you know—and you know what—

Hill W-where? Who? Where?

Ayalon A-and you know what, mark my words, and, and you can show it again, because I know it's recorded. When this war is over and we bring in the international press to Shifa and to all the bunkers, the underground tunnels that Hamas has created in Gaza—ask intelligence services of every country in the world, they know it—but anyway, what I'm saying is—

Hill No, no, no—just to be clear, for the audience's benefit, no intelligence service has claimed that. Not one government has claimed that the Shifa Hospital is a Hamas bunker. That is your claim, and I want to be very clear that that is your claim.

And you're saying that you don't have any reports, but that I should just trust you.

Ayalon No!

Hill Mark your words, trust you, and later on it'll be proven true.

Ayalon I'm telling you, everybody will see.

Hill Okay.

Ayalon After the war is over.

Hill Fair enough.

Ayalon Even—

Hill I have—I have to move on just in the interests of time, but I want to continue on the same vein, because the Secretary-General of the UN, António Guterres, said that he was deeply distressed by Israel's announcement of a siege on the Gaza Strip. He said that the humanitarian situation, quote, "will only deteriorate exponentially," and that crucial life-saving supplies, including fuel, food, and water must be allowed into Gaza.

So the UN is saying, "You must do this." You are saying you're not going to do this. How do you—

Ayalon No. We're not, we're not saying that.

Hill He's saying "do it immediately." What I'm saying is, what you're—he's saying, "do it immediately."

Ayalon I got you. I'll tell you exactly what we're saying. I'm saying, we will do everything for the Gazan people, once—and now we demand immediate surrender, unconditional surrender of Hamas. If Hamas people come out with their hands up and clear their weapons, believe me, everything will be restored to Gaza. It is Hamas, in Hamas hands. If they care—

Hill Okay, now I understand. Thank you for clarifying that, sir. I think we're actually on the same page here. You're saying that once Hamas leaves, you'll grant the Gazan people food, shelter, fuel, electricity, hospitals, schooling. And if Hamas doesn't leave, then they'll continue to starve and die in hospitals.

You are defining for the international community, right now, collective punishment.

You're saying, "Until Hamas acts differently, the two million people in Gaza are going to be treated this way. And once Hamas acts differently, these two million people in Gaza will be treated better."

That is exactly what collective punishment is: you're holding them accountable for the actions of others; that is the definition, the textbook definition, of collective punishment, sir. Now, you—you may accept that that's what you want to do, but this is absolutely a contravention of international law.

Ayalon Well, I'll tell you exactly—no! Had we had no—if we had pushed them into the wall—we're not pushing them to the wall! We want to open a humanitarian corridor so they can leave. But if Hamas—

Hill So that who can leave? Citizens? You're saying civilians can leave, but only through the Rafah Border, correct?

Ayalon At this point, yes.

Hill So they can't—

Ayalon Because, where else—

Hill Your country! They can come into Israel!

Ayalon [big fake smile, long pause] I'm telling you one more thing I want to say—

Hill I-I want you to address that point—

Ayalon [another big smile]

Hill —don't just smile, sir, respectfully. You're saying—

Ayalon [smile vanishes] I'm not smiling!

Hill —they, you're making a corridor, they can go to Egypt—you're bombing them! You say you want to save them, but you—they can't come in.

Ayalon I—first of all, I'm not smiling. I'm crying in my heart. I'm crying in my heart for all the butchery of thousands of Israelis. Why do you think the world is with us? Why do you think the world is wise? All the international media was there.

So don't talk to me about collective punishment, don't talk to me about humanitarian—these are new rules of the game.

There is no coexistence with Hamas, which is worse than Isis, and we will not stop. We are allowing the population to leave. But if Hamas will surrender, there won't be any problem whatsoever.

Hill Danny Ayalon, thank you so much for joining me on Up Front.

Ayalon Pleasure.

Hill All right, that is our show. Up Front will be back next week.

[end cut, show title]

#Israel #Palestine #interviews #links #transcription #summary #I did my best with the summary but there's a lot of interesting stuff that had to be left out #lest the brief summary become the full transcript #also #I left out a lot of the ums and ers #stammering #and crosstalk #if you have half an hour by all means watch the video #the facial expressions and body language add even more #by the way #the answer to the question asked in the article's title is ''yes''

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