#Hazbin critique

[80rosequartz08]

THIS IS NOT OK

HUGE TW: R4P3 & Death Threats

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I get it! We all hate/dislike Vivzie and think her and her depiction of certain groups and issues is gross!

BUT THIS IS NOT OK.

WISHING DEATH OR ASSAULT ON SOMEONE YOU HATE IS AND WILL ALWAYS NEVER BE OK.

Even if Vivzie and her team/friends have said/done horrible and vile things regarding S/A, wishing S/A, death, and R4P3 upon them is fucking disgusting.

PLEASE REPORT AND BLOCK THIS PERSON!!!

They do NOT represent the ideals and goals of the HH/HB critical community!

I REPEAT:

DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM. SIMPLY REPORT AND BLOCK THEM.

Now, I need to go take a shower and bleach my eyes.

[azural83]

What's the point of having characters from different time periods when they behave and swear like they're edgy american teens?

[buy-axes-in-central-london]

Bro it took 9 years for viv to discover lesbians have sex too

[anglercrit]

Since Ponett’s Hazbin review’s been gaining traction, I wanna highlight a part of it that really stuck with me:

This right here. The fact the hotel is so underutilized is the most painful part of the show (that’s not related to its bigotry) to me. You’d expect the first season of this show to be about Charlie getting the hotel off the ground and having to deal with the shenanigans that come with all the different sinners coming to stay, but it just…never happens. It feels like it’d be such an easy way for Viv to get to show off tons of her designs and characters, but nothing…comes of it at all.

Season 1 should’ve ended with the hotel starting to become more popular, a real victory for Charlie and crew as tons of sinners are staying there or at least interested- you could even set up a tease for Heaven in Season 2 by maybe showing Adam and Lute being interested or concerned about the hotel’s potential success. But instead we get a five-month timeskip out of NOWHERE in the middle of the season and we’re already at heaven and Angel and Pent were the hotel’s only guests actually!

This show man…it’s just Frustrating tbh

[theoddest1]

Let's Actually Talk About The Issues With Vivziepop

Okay, first off, hello you beautiful people! Sorry about this foreboding title, but I needed to catch y'all attention on this so I can break down the issues that I and many have with "Hazbin Hotel" and "Helluva Boss" creator, Vivienne Medrano. Now I am sure you all on here are already aware of at least a couple of the controversies that revolve around this particular creator and if you have seen my posts floating around already, some have been greeted with the problems surrounding her social media presence and just her overall as a person. I know seeing another callout on her seems very very tiring at this point, but I felt that a lot of the current callouts missed key details that were not at all addressed or properly delved on. I plan on shedding light on my issues with her and I hope you get where I am coming from when I say that she sucks.

BULLYING

Okay, I am starting off with Vivienne's blatant use of bully mentality, her agreeing or encouraging her fans to call people who see flaws in her works sub-humans or harass those who find issue or simply jest about her works trademark cussing and and overcrowded designs. She has had this issue for YEARS and refuses to grow up and act her age despite many telling her, even her own fans at times, that she shouldn't be acting so unprofessionally. Clearly, she doesn't care and thanks to her fanbase caring more about her feelings than her being better she feels as though she doesn't need to change or do better. This goes for her friend group as well, who defend her tremendously and act as though she is never in the wrong. Name one time a friend of hers called her out for acting childish, I'll wait.

Now, you're probably wondering, "Wtf could they have done to warrant such a response?"

Criticism...That's all they did. (White Text is random peeps they would speak with or maybe mutuals)

Keep in mind...they used to be a fan as well. They were also a minor at this point

But, Viv doesn't care, this person's critical yet harmless tweets about her shows is what lead to her painting them in a horrible light and making them out to be someone who has attacked her personally and as "nasty".

Rich coming from Viv since she is completely fine doing exactly that for "Ava's Demon". Not only does she criticize it, she takes a shot at the creator as well, but GOD FORBID others do the same towards her.

And according to someone who knew her well, it's all cause they felt creeped out by her.

Her hatred for criticism is so prominent that Ima makes that a section of its own. But let's get back on the topic of bullying.

Vivienne has a fanbase filled to the brim with pushy and overall annoying individuals who have harassed, threatened, disrespected, and wished harm on many people, all cause someone had a negative thing to say about Vivziepop's mid af show. One of the earlier known instances is the one revolving around a MEME of all things.

This was what started it all, and it led to both parties blocking each other and people being mad pushy and calling them an idiot and the like over their opinions. Now look, their take and you're opinion on said take is fine so long as you stay respectful and humane about it all, but don't dogpike someone all cause they think HH sucks. And while Viv can not control her fanbase, for they are not a hivemind (some of y'all act it tho, ima keep it real) she is seen here ENCOURAGING the behavior. Tell me how someone who doesn't even like your trash ass show has the sense to tell people not to harass others, someone with a smaller following, but not your grown damn near 30 year old ass?

Oh, but people wanna act like she can handle criticism, is a sweet person, and grew from her past experiences. Fam, she was 27 in this screenshot [December 16, 2019] and has shown no change from 2013 to fucking 2024. Over a decade of the same petty ass behavior, and keep in mind, according to several of her old friends and workers, she is worse behind close doors. WORSE. She's already acting like she got no damn sense out in the open, imagine behind closed doors.

Last but not least, a glimpse into her outright blatant slander towards Dollcreep, a once good friend of hers that she even visited and spoke with frequently!

She stated that they fetishized pedophilia yet according to the victim and friends of the victim who were once friends with Viv as well, Viv actually threatened to end their friendship if he hadn't drawn NSFW art of her character and his character having sex [Addi was 15 at the time this was drawn]

On top of that, she liked the post, something she didn't need to do. The art also depicted things she had regularly drawn on her own. Addi being tied up forcefully, being sexualized, being harmed to some degree through bondage, etc. The claim that she forced DC to draw this out is backed up by her own art depicting similar elements. Also, if my memory serves me well, Viv and Doll were 17-18 years old [Doll was 17 Viv 18] and have a 1-year age gap. The way Viv frames things here is as if DC was way older and imposed some sort of power over DC, which sources say otherwise. If anything, Viv had a LOT of control throughout all of this drama, which deserves its own section.

I'll be making posts that talk about the different issues regarding Viv, so one post isn't too long (this one is already lengthy enough) and that you can just pick at one post targeting certain issues around this creator.

[star-daughter]

So let's talk about Vivziepop's designing skills!

The amount of sadness I feel when I see Vivziepop's designs of the demons in Helluva Boss is impossibly high

Simply comparing them from where she is pulling from feels like looking at a newborn compared to a grandma. Now let's go through them!

Lucifer

Viv's Lucifer, a popular depiction of Lucifer ("The Fallen Angel" by Alexandre Cabanel), and one with Jesus ("The Temptation of Christ" by Ary Scheffer)

You can see a big difference in a lot, as you can see Lucy (which will be Viv's version) has well. Clothing but we can give her a pass for that as I don't think Youtube would be fine with an animated dick on screen. Another thing is his lack of wings, bat-like or feathered along with blonde instead of red curled hair and yellow eyes instead of the blue Lucifer has in The Fallen Angel.

But what I see as the biggest thing is Lucy's lack of muscles! In both of these depictions I have chosen Lucifer appears muscular whilst Lucy has Viv's favorite smile and body shape.

Asmodeus

Here we have Viv's Asmodeus (Ozzie) and Asmodeus from Collin de Plancy's "Dictionnaire Infernal"

I will give Viv major props, I LOVE Ozzie's design. If we removed the feathers, made his head bigger, and some small things it would be AMAZING! But comparing it to Asmodeus it's... wooo.... very different.

First you can see is Asmodeus does not look conventionally attractive with his strange old man face, elf ears, bull head, ram head, serpent tail, and literal chicken legs. Ozzie does have the 2 heads on his shoulders (just very small) and a tail (not a serpent one) but other than that the similarities end. Though I do think taking Asmodeus the direction to being physically attractive to most people was a good way to go.

A personal nit pick is the clear lack of a BADASS DRAGON. Yes, Asmodeus has a BADASS DRAGON. On his little Dictionnaire Infernal image he's sitting on a BADASS DRAGON which he holds a banner as he rides. Viv you could have made Fizz a cool dragon demon! Make him look LESS like Blitz's twin brother and more like something that related to the Ars Goetia canon.

Beelzebub

Now this is Viv's Beelzebub and a fly-like Beelzebub (Beelzebul) (I've left out the more manly versions of Beelzebub to keep it fair as Beelzebub is a woman)

So a big thing we can see is Beelzebub is a furry whilst Beelzebul is a straight up fly, taking the term "Lord of the Flies" much more seriously. Now comparing these two is basically impossible minus their wings and extra arms. Now with them looking nothing alike I'll put some of my own personal critique's in.

One, Beelzebub's hair and tail makes me want to vomit. It's constantly moving thus every frame it must be moved which is HORRIBLE on an animation stand point. Two, Her clothes. A direct quote from the Helluva Boss wiki says "Beelzebub represents the animal tamer/animal shows" when her clothing looks like that it's hard to believe. If it was casual clothes? Okay I'd believe that but it being her debut episode wouldn't you want her in her normal clothes? And that's ignoring her magical disappearing bra... is that just an arm strap? Three, the ear thing. God the ear thing! Viv said they were supposed to appear like beehives... girl what beehives have you been seeing? Maybe she meant honeycomb? Still I see zero resemblance.

Mammon

Here we have Viv's Mammon, Mammon (Mam) from the painting "The Worship of Mammon" by Evelyn De Morgan, and Mammon (Mon) from Collin de Plancy's "Dictionnaire Infernal"

As we can see Mammon looks like the Teen Titans Go Robin mixed with a Christmas tree, the Christmas theming is quite clever I'll give Viv that. Christmas is a time of greedily taking all that is given to you through gifts. Now I could complain about how Mammon is poor rep for a fat character and simply is a widened version of her normal body type but I already made a post about that

But comparing him to Mam and Mon? Nothing similar. Mam we can see appears like a very large naked buff dark skinned man whilst Mon is a freakish old man with wide eyes and tattered clothes. Mammon shares zero similarities to either of them.

Another thing is Mammon's monster form... I believe everybody has seen it and hochie momma it is HORRIBLE! From the screenshots I've seen we don't see all of it but he's clearly intended to be a spider of sorts which is great! Spiders can often be seen with 6 flies trapped on their web being hoarded for later but Viv seems to have taken the lazy route of extra legs and 2 extra set of eyes. Anthro spiders can be so so SO cool but I feel scammed. Stolen from. My life savings have been taken by this shitty design.

Paimon

Here we have Vivziepop's Paimon and Paimon (Paimonia) from Collin de Plancy's "Dictionnaire Infernal"

As we can see they appear nothing alike minus the crown and odd chicken legs though Paimon lacks the camel that Paimonia has. Paimonia also has a feminine face and a humanoid body, nothing like Paimon. Though I personally think Paimon's design is stunning what made Viv connect the two, is it because the Goetia family is intended to all be ripped from the Ars Goetia? I feel though that Paimon's design takes as much as it can from Paimonia while making him look related to Stolas but why does he need to be named Paimon?

Stolas

Here we have Vivzie's Stolas and Stolas (Stolos) from Collin de Plancy's "Dictionnaire Infernal"

So, I have a lot of issues with Stolas's design, it's ugly first of all but compared to Stolos's cute yet shocked wide eyes and charming little beak it's even more obvious how ugly it is.

First, Stolos is shown as an owl (but also is described as a Raven). which Viv got right along with keeping his crown and odd horn-like feathers. However, I believe making Stolas that skinny doesn't follow the model of most owls as they can be pretty fluffy and plump. Even Stolos has a round fluffy chest that trails into his comically long legs.

Second, that cape is very horrifying but not in a good way. Nobody wants to animate a cape with that many rips! Even if they don't have to be precise. Also, why do his buttons have no lineart when everything else around it has lineart? I have the same issue with Blitz's design and his random chest orbs.

Feel free to put in your own reblogs and replies with your opinions! You can also send in asks with designs from HH or HB that aren't linked to previously existing designs unlike these fellows and I'll throw in my personal thoughts.

-Mod Paimon

[ms-cartoon]

Normally, when I see posts like this, I ignore it cuz it's nothing serious to argue over, but I just feel like giving some fair points about it.

I can agree that not every single episode has to revolve around Charlie. There are still some characters we are curious about and want to dive into, but here's the thing;

The problem is we're already 4 eps in and most of them hardly contain Charlie and the plot of the whole show, not to mention they're fast-paced with the show cramming in new characters and the plot containing them as much as possible without even taking the time. Our 4th episode in and we already have Adam, Lute, Vox, Valentino, Velvette, Camilla (her daughters included), Zestial, the other overlords, etc. All these characters and we're not even in episode 5 yet!! I'm surprised Cherri Bomb hasn't even shown up! She was in the pilot and had a whole speaking role and everything while the three Vees and the Overlords didn't.

EP 1: Charlie takes her father's place in having a meeting with the Angels meanwhile Vaggie tries to make a commercial about the hotel with the assistance of the staff. Okay, we were off to an alright start. Though I wish the ep didn't go back and forth with Charlie and Vaggie. I feel like 1 half of the ep should've been about one person while the other half focused on another.

EP 2: The three Vs are introduced. We see that Vox and Alastor hate each other and he, along with Val and Vel, figure out a way to keep Charlie from ever striking a deal with Alastor. Why they are trying to do this? I dunno, it's never explained really. They get Sir Pentious to spy on Charlie and Alastor by seeming to Charlie that he's interested in rehabilitation. Meanwhile, Angel's feeling all upset about it and we're given a hint at him and what his relationship is like with Valentino. (Charlie was present, but overall, this episode was not about her).

EP 3: Alastor arrives at a meeting with the other overlords (Camilla n them). It's a meeting about . . . Idk, it was a meeting. Velvette comes in and reveals she's found the head of one of the exorcists which is a shock to Camilla (because she secretly was the one that killed the exorcist). Meanwhile, Vaggie tries to help Charlie figure out how the staff can have trust and bond with each other. (This episode kinda involves Charlie, but we're mainly focused on Vaggie and how she feels she doesn't do much for her. Crazy thing is someone apart from Viv or Adam wrote this and much better than either of them could write a page.)

EP 4: We immediately jump into the Angel Dust arc where we focus on him and his situation dealing with Valentino. Meanwhile, he continuously argues with Husk but then they make up and become friends in the end. (Charlie's only there for the first half of the episode while just barely being there for the second. Aside from that, this episode wasn't about her at all.)

Y'all see what I mean?

Also, Viv said that Hazbin Hotel was a female-focused show where it is centered around Charlie and even Vaggie, so of course we're gonna expect more of them instead of the rest of the characters.

[devdirt]

Alternative ideas for Lucifer's wings!

I'm no artist but I found his wings to be very plain in that reveal shot. The lack of feather details leave them as giant red blots taking up nearly half of the screen. I think he could go with some kind of accessories, gold to match his accent and elegant to match the suit design. Chains or a sparkling cloth can add some lighting effects in there, or you can go with the starry design on the inside of his wings to give the large feeling of space to accompany how much of the screen they're taking up.

If he's a former angel, the morning star, there should be some kind of shiny, sparkly or starry effect in there! Play it up!

[pedanticat]

Oh for Pete sake! Why is stuff like this never explained IN THE SHOW?!?!

[showtoonzfan]

They’re going to make Lilith the underdeveloped bitchy mother who took Charlie away from her sympathetic father who’s “not all that bad”- aren’t they? It’s also bothering how we’ve clearly gotten teases of Lucifer, but zero on Lilith, not even her design or her role in the show. Keep in mind according to the character description leaks, it is canon that Lucifer and Lilith are separated now, and they seem to be leaning towards Charlie having more of a close/established relationship with her father rather than her mother. Knowing how Viv clearly wants Lucifer in this sympathetic light, I’m very worried that Lilith won’t have much to her outside of being separated from Lucifer, that and Viv writes her female characters like utter shit so-

Also so glad we can sympathize with the literal devil but not Stolas’s bitchy wife, Viv is such a fair writer.

[80rosequartz08]

"Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel cares about male victims!"

Mhm...sure yep totally! They CLEARLY do! /j

Sure...😒

[azural83]

Cherri was there for angel before he even met husk and I'm supposed to believe that she'd randomly turn into a bad influence? When angel is visibly upset?

They're ruining her just to make husk the voice of reason

[doodlezandoodlez]

lucifer redesign but i practically changed his entire character (redesign notes under the cut)

things i kept :

• the ringmaster like outfit. i actually really enjoy the idea of the deadly sins looking like circus acts, i think it's a pretty neat concept

• the snake and apple motifs. i exaggerated them a bit more tho

• the purple eyeshadow. i think it brings a nice pop of colour to his design

• the crown on his top hat

things i changed :

• i detwinkified him. with the twink death ray

• his staff. its now a pitchfork/trident thingy with the stabby things coming out of the apple

• he's a lion now because they symbolize pride

• i made him look more demonic than angelic, giving him 3 sets of horns (the 3rd set is really small and on his forehead so its pretty hard to see)

• i gave him a lot more red. ik one of the problems with hazbin is that it has too much red, but since red is the pride rings assigned color according to the show so i decided to roll with that

• i put his wedding ring on one of his horn

• he has a lot more gold/gold accents to symbolize his royal status n shit

aaaaand yeah thats basically it for him. i'll be posting Lilith and Charlie's redesigns soon :]

[anglercrit]

One thing that really frustrates me about Viv's work is how she handles her villains. She has a love for wacky/Saturday morning cartoon villains, which, fair- I admit I like them too. But the issue is ALL of her villains are this- all of her villains are either goofy Saturday morning cartoons or complete idiots, neither of which end up posing an actual threat to the cast. Like, seriously- let me go through every villain in Hazbin/Helluva so far.

Stella: Treated as incompetent by the narrative

Robo-Fizz: Dead

Verosika: barely even a villain- if anything she's more just a rival

CHERUB: Kicked out of Heaven in their first appearance so they can't be a threat to IMP, and they haven't shown up since their first episode

DHORKS: Same as CHERUB- portrayed as incompetent and haven't shown up since Season 1

Striker: WAS an actual decent threat in Harvest Moon Festival....but then Western Energy ruined him and made him into another dick joke vehicle.

Fizzarolli: an actually decent rival to Blitzo in Ozzie's, but he needed WAY more episodes before hitting the big emotional arc in Oops and hasn't been portrayed as a villain since Ozzie's

Asmodeus: same as fizz- seemed intimidating at first, but he hasn't really....been portrayed as a bad guy since Ozzie's.

Chaz: Joke villain who's just a more annoying Blitzo and he's dead now so

Crimson: Had the POTENTIAL to maybe be a threat, but was already treated awfully in his debut episode, and was handled even worse in Oops

Andrealphus: Introduced out of NOWHERE and has barely done anything/we've had no time to absorb him as a threat

Barbie Wire: RIDICULOUSLY flat and oh yea is an Actual Predator for the sake of a bad joke

Glitz and Glam: ....why do they exist again?

Mammon: an ACTUAL THREAT AGAIN, but even THEN he's still portrayed as goofy/incompetent

As for Hazbin's villains...

Lucifer: Goofy Dad

Vox: Goofy Villain

Valentino: Goofy Villain Who's Also An Actual Rapist

Velvette: ....does she even count?

Adam: Annoying Dickhead Fratboy who's more irritating than intimidating

Lute: Honestly the most potential of anyone here but she's still pretty boring

The issue is Viv wants all her villains to be Team Rocket, but she forgets that Team Rocket was Never Taken Seriously. Minus the Unova anime, When it came time for a serious threat, there was always a new villain introduced for the movie! They knew they couldn't have proper stakes with them as the main baddies, so they weren't! Viv just doesn't understand that you can't have all your villains be Jessie and James if you're trying to go for a serious story like she is.

[will-pilled]

Why is Angel's SA literally the only one taken "seriously" (if you can even call it that.) Every other one is either made into a joke or punchline (Pent or Mox) or completely ignored and they pretend it isn't happening (Blitz) Why is Angel's the only one that matters???

[raviosprovidence]

I already told some friends this but it makes me extremely mad seeing Lucifer's design in Hazbin because...vivzie already designed lucifer for zoophobia and he's *so much better*

Look at him! Like yeah it is all red but at least it's a nice muted red with lighter accents in the eyes and eyebrows. He's not 50 shades of blood.

The big horns that reference a broken halo are a wonderful touch. I love the grizzled face and hunched back that show he's Old and Has Seen Things. I like the cloak that adds an air of mystery as to what's behind it.

Compared to this...

This is just a White Onceler. He doesn't convey anything lucifer to me other than the snake and the apple on his top hat. He's just another generic triangle tooth twink.

Going back a bit, It also helps for zoophobia that he was supposed to be in a world of characters who WERE bright and colorful so he actually stood out in a good way

Look at these guys! Sure, it's busy, but I can actually tell which characters are what. They all feel like they have their own identity and aesthetic due to their different colors. It's what a cartoon cast is SUPPOSED to look like.

Old lucifer would have stood out in that cast because not everyone is fucking red. New lucifer barely stands out, only because he looks so much like Charlie. And even THEN, they look like siblings!

this isn't official art done by Vivienne but I couldn't find any other good screencaps showing them side by side. If someone didn't know shit about hazbin they'd think charlie and lucifer were twins. Nothing about new lucifer's design suggests that he's a father or even older than 25.

It's sad, honestly. I used to look up to vivienne when I was younger. Now, she's a shadow of her former self as an artist.