#I have words about the Arena designs for the P3 cast

[almoststedytimetravel]

It's honestly so fucking funny how dead Trinity Soul is. Almost every single piece of Persona media released since has been dedicated to making that poor twink noncannonical.

[princekirijo]

Thoughts on SEES's 1st tier personas? You can keep this short if you want, and don't forget Psyche!

WOOHOO Prince rants about personas round 2 electric boogaloo!

OK this time I'll focus a little more on the actual designs themselves and my thoughts on how they relate to the character + their stories. Read more because well... You know me...

MC/FeMC: So for Orpheus I think its a pretty fitting choice for the protagonists. The protagonists are on a Journey just like Orpheus journey out of the underworld (kinda on the nose lmao) and both of them have strong connections with music! There's probably some connection between the underworld journey and the fact the plot of the game is to stop death but I'm not sure how to word it if you get me. I also like how they really resemble the protagonists face and hair wise! The mechanical detailing is also a neat touch, I've always seen it as the protagonists being very closed off with their emotions (that's kinda of a trend with a lot of the P3 cast I feel, the inital personas are very stiff but then the 2nd tier have more human feel to them).

Junpei: I think Hermes is a really good choice for Junpei. They're both kinda tricksters and Hermes is often portrayed as being carefree (in media at least) which suits Junpei a lot. In terms of design I think its pretty good, I really like the over exaggerated wings on his feet (the iconic winged sandals Hermes usually rocks) and I like his helmet design. My favorite thing about him as I mentioned before though is actually his animations. The way he slides into the enemies reminds me of a baseball player sliding to a base when they're running between bases (Idk baseball that well I hope that makes sense). Very fitting for Junpei considering his choice of career in Arena and also how he uses his sword like a baseball bat!

Yukari: Io is an interesting one for me. I really like her design, I think the girl in the cow head is a very fitting look for Io (who was a woman who got transformed into a cow by Zeus. Io's story is very sad imo (classic Greek woman gets screwed over by Zeus story) but I'll be honest I've never been totally sure why they went with her for Yukari. I think it works don't get me wrong and I like the choice I just don't see why (I, as I'm sure you can tell, am very passionate about Persona designs and I do my best to understand the choices behind the character and design of the persona and how it relates to the user). It just got pointed out to me (shout out to you Rui) that the way the woman is chained to the cow is kinda symbolic of how Yukari is chained to her past and I think that's a really really cool detail!

Akihiko & Shinjiro: I have to combine these two for obvious reasons. Polydueces ugly design aside for a moment, man. This choice for Akihiko is so good because of its connection to Castor. Regardless of how you view Akihiko and Shinjiro's connection, the way they are so connected to each other and how interwoven they are as characters to the point their personas are literally twins?!! Absolutely amazing I don't think we've had as powerful a persona connection since. I really love how their designs reflect each other two, Polydueces with its lighter and more alive design versus Castor and his dark look and the sword that's embedded in his chest? Symbolizing that he's the mortal twin that dies in the legends? And then connect that with his story in the game? Blows my MIND conceptually the best personas in the series actually. I love them.

Fuuka: OK I love Lucia and how she interacts with Fuuka. Having that glass orb as her body and have Fuuka in there navigating for the team is really really cool! I really like the pose of the persona (there is something about it... blanking on why that is relevant to its design). I also love the detail of her eyes being covered as she is the Patron saint of the blind! A cool choice for a navigational persona. Something about her being considered a martyr is fitting for Fuuka too. I also like how different it is to the others (a lot of the others having Greek connections whereas this is a Catholic saint).

Mitsuru: Oh Penthesilea my absolute beloved. I've discussed her in detail before (mind you probably two years ago at this point) but like one of my favorite things about her is the weapons she uses. The sword, particularly a rapier is seen as an honest weapon. A good knight has a sword, a skilled duelist has a rapier. Mitsuru is a very strong and experienced Persona user (and ofc is a fencer herself). She's convinced everyone she's on this noble quest to fix the Kirijo Group's mistakes, which is partially true to be fair. But her other weapon? A dagger. Associated with dishonesty and treachery. I feel like this alludes to her being dishonest with SEES. I adore Mitsuru but even I can admit she was sneaky and kept important details from SEES (she had her reasons but still). And ofc the treachery I feel is less her and more Ikutski betraying her trust and her father's trust. Also her being dishonest about her own motivations! And then ofc the big details: the absence of red in Penthesilia's design and her face being fully covered by the mask! Showing the walls Mitsuru has built up around herself!!! Sorry I just love Penthesilia and will over analyze her a lot.

Koromaru: Honestly I don't have much to say here but that's not a bad thing! Cereberus is really true to the original myths, a three headed dog with a hellish looking design and that's what they've given us. It's a solid design and I love him!

Ken: OK my own thoughts about Nemesis aside, I think its a really well executed design. It's a very unnerving and angry looking design, perfect for the goddess of revenge. And obvs her being a goddess of revenge is very very suitable for Ken given his motivations up until October 4th! The color scheme really helps with this too. Just a very edgy design perfect for Ken.

Aigis: Palladion is really cool because it's not actually a person but rather an object! Specifically an object associated with protection very similar to aegis. Which well, is perfect for Aigis. A robot dedicated to protecting the protagonist. I can't quite put it into words but its just a really really cool design. I like the big metal spike going through it, very robotic and always reminds me of the front of a pirate ship, not sure if that was intentional tbh.

Metis: OK Psyche is tricky for me. As a design its really cool. I enjoy the butterfly motif a lot. I really like its dress too and I think it resembles Athena which makes a lot of sense given who Metis is! Why Psyche though? The only connection I can make is that Psyche was originally a mortal who was considered so beautiful people mistook her for Aphrodite. Which I guess ties into how Metis was mistaken for Aigis..? Idk there's def a connection here somewhere but I am not sure of what that is. It's still a cool design though.

And I think that's everyone? Hope I didn't forget anyone man this was fun to do. Congrats if you read it all LMAO

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Persona Q2 Problems: Lore-Summoning Discrepancy

Ok, so this is something that’s been bothering me for a VERY long time, it was something that caught my attention back when they were just advertising the game (if anyone is wondering, it was how the cognition worked in this game…and that questioned snowballed to say the least into what this was), but I wanted to wait till the game came out to talk about it (took really long cause I wasn’t sure how to approach it, I mean this thing came up as about 7ish pages in GoogleDocs so like....yeah 8U lotta writing). 

Before I begin, yes I know there are different ways to summon persona. Yes they can coexist in the same series, that isn’t the issue. The issue is how P5 and onward’s lore has been handled. I also wanted to do a complete replay of Arena, Ultimax (esp this one cause it’s a bit funky with the DH and red fog), and PQ1 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut due to events (aka me working despite Corona happening), I didn’t get around to it yet. So consider this a “version 1″ post, with the possibility of there being a “revised version” later. I also won’t really touch on P1/2 much (I’ll bring them up a few times), not because they aren’t important, but because this mostly pertains to PQ2 and the games associated with it.... as well as my sparse knowledge on P1/2 (so I’m sorry in advance if I mess something up while talking about those two games ;w;). We also aren’t talking about P3D, P5D, Royal or Scramble (maybe I’ll include Royal/Scramble in the possible revised/add on/sequel post to this but not now….cause spoilers….and PQ2 came before those so I’d rather focus on what built up to it rather than what comes after).

Also yeah some of this will contain a theory (the theory parts is me trying to reconcile canon and it’s at the end of the post, the rest is me pointing at a hole in the canon/lore tho.... so no this isn’t a glorified theory post, I’ll point out when I’mma enter my minor theory). Anyway, under the cut cause length! 8U:

So first we’re gonna start off with a question. At one point my bf asked me “What dictates why the characters summon the way they do in their games?” To which I replied, after thinking about it for a decent minute, “Setting......maybe with some god interference but it’s usually cause they created that setting, so really it’s just the setting.” If we look at all the games, they all summon things a bit differently (P1/2 being the closest in similarity, with P4 being the closest to them among the newer titles), but what also is different in each game is the setting. 

P1 does a Jojo summon cause of a Parallel world, P2 does Jojo poses thanks to the rumors, P3 uses evokers (but otherwise they can just make it appear if they concentrate hard enough, or if you are a VR attendant then you use cards) thanks to the Dark Hour (DH), P4 uses cards (but like P3, can sometimes just summon without manifesting a card similar to P3’s evoker-less summons and P1/2 summons) thanks to the TV World (TVW), and P5 uses their masks thanks to the Metaverse. 

So next (2) question(s).....What would happen if you take one team and put them in another teams’ world? How would they summon their persona’s then? Well.....it depends on the setting, but spoiler for the rest of the post....they would either use cards/no cards (ala P4 style, from here on I’mma just say “card style” but keep in mind cards may or may not be utilized), or have a PT outfit/mask summon (aka P5 style). OR, if they are struggling and have an evoker on hand, then they’d use an evoker (but not if it’s in the Metaverse). So to use an evoker, they’d have to struggle with summoning in a P3ish type area (which keep in mind is similar to a P4 type area), and if they aren’t struggling then the default would be P4 type summoning (I mean they could still use the evoker if you want, but the card style is the default tbh). Oh yeah there’s a lot to unpack there. You see, P3/4 can exist together without issues, P5.....can’t.....with either of them…..At least not without certain rules being established in a setting, and then ALL THREE having to follow those rules. (Tbh it feels like the P5 era/PQ2 specifically, they seem to prioritize iconography over logic. Aka “Well P3 used evokers because they are P3!” rather than looking at the implications of the world they are utilizing and instead prioritizing something the audience will recognize rather than following the rules they have built.)

Ok so I know I just threw a ton of facts at you, so let’s backtrack and explain how I know these are facts by going through the games (cause I know you can’t just take my word for it)!

Now, how do P3/4 work well together? It’s simple.....the DH and TVW are similar (TVW is a more...”potent” DH and makes it easier to summon things), well similar in feel as Arena states:

Ok so they are similar in feel, and tbh the means of being able to summon a Persona is similar too! P3 kids don’t NEED evokers, it’s proven that characters can summon a Persona without a need of an evoker in both the DH and Real World (ex: Labby in Arena when escaping the lab, Mitsuru in The Answer flashback, Fuuka in Arena iirc, Takaya all the time in P3, Chidori when her Persona tried to kill her, and possibly Tatsuya/other P2 characters prior to the rumors going rampant during the P2 game), HOWEVER it’s very hard to do so. It usually requires intense concentration, or a rush of emotion or a life/death situation (which all examples fall under one or both). The evoker is designed to help facilitate this life/death feeling (*cough* tho it takes the shape of a gun cause Mitsuru thought it’d catch Akihiko’s attention*cough* I mean Koro doesn’t need it being a gun so the shape could be whatever they just chose a gun so they could seduce Akihiko 8U). But regardless, the evoker is a man made tool that helps one summon a Persona (aka creates an artificial focal point), but it’s not a natural focal point made by the user (ie, card, clutching your head/no card/possibly P1&P2 style, or P5′s mask), so really anyone can use an evoker. (one more side tangent since we’re on focal points, as for how P4 can have two different ways of summoning, ie card/no card, it could just be that the TVW allows different forms of a natural focal point to form, either via thinking of summoning the Persona, or having your mind form a physical card in front of you, so the setting of the TVW gives a choice to the user)

Now remember when I said that the TVW is a DH that’s easier to summon Personas? Or that if a user isn’t struggling then the default is the card/P4 style summoning and not the evoker? Well Arena showcases how easy it is to summon in the TVW:

So there we go, it’s easier to summon in the TVW than the DH. Can’t argue with that! The reason is probably because DH is a layer on top of the Real World, so it’s closer to reality, while the TVW is closer to the Collective Unconscious/aka CU (aka the TVW is an alternate world, rather than a camera filter like the DH is), so that could explain why it’s easier. 

So what have we established so far?:

DH and TVW are very similar, but TVW is probably more is closer to the CU than the DH (while the DH is closer to reality), which makes it easier to summon in the TVW. 

Evokers can be used by anyone because they are a man-made tool, but they aren’t natural ways of summoning like show cased in P1/2/4/5. 

P3 cast can summon Personas like P4 cast, and theoretically vice versa is probably possible if they ever gave the P4 cast evokers.

Now from Arena, we will go to PQ1, then Ultimax, then briefly on P4D before we get to P5. (I’m doing PQ1 before Ultimax because I’m doing the it in the order of the JPN release not the US release, and no I’m not counting the arcade Ultimax release 8U)

So let’s look at PQ1. Now from my memory....I don’t recall them really talking about the P3 cast specifically not being able to summon their personas without their evoker in the PQ1 world. Like they talk about their differences in summoning, but I don’t think the P3 kids tried to summon without their evokers. And the reason I bring this up, because we could probably say this is a discrepancy too, is because the P4 kids still use their card style, which means the PQ1 world is similar to the TV world, where it’s easier to summon via using the cards. And since the P3 kids can use the card style, in a setting that allows card styles…..that means they could summon the same way the P4 kids can in PQ1! But the P3 kids don’t have the same thought process as they did in Arena, where “oh we summoned our personas without our evokers! Only just thinking about it!” And like....that’s a red flag....BUT, as I said before, evokers and cards can exist at the same time. In Arena/ Ultimax the human P3 users (minus maaaybe Junpei) use their evokers when doing a finisher. So we could just chalk it up to them being used to it out of habit. It also helps that Arena was released not long before PQ1, so we know they can both exist at the same time thanks to prior knowledge. So like yeah there’s a tiny issue here, but nothing glaring or a very big deal, it’s just them avoiding addressing something rather than creating a contradiction. Maybe in a remake they’ll add a line saying “huh that’s weird, still gonna use my evoker cause we’re used to it.” XU And it’d be all good.

Now Ultimax is a little.....more concerning. Technically there’s a dark hour....but you can summon without your evoker (and also they call the Fake!Dark Hour F!DH taking place in the “real world”):

Now I can’t remember the rest of Ultimax to that specific of a detail, so I dunno if they 100% explain why/how the F!DH it’s easier to summon than the DH, but they really seemed to hint at the red fog in these early scenes (where I rewatched to get the screen grabs), with it having some influence and possibly being the culprit behind the anomaly (I’d say the same thing for the TVW, but Teddie says Shadows have been there since forever, and Izanami only found the TVW not created it, she did bring the fog, so it’s possible the fog isn’t what dictates summoning in the TVW just TVW as a place, but in Ultimax the combination of the red fog and the F!DH makes the setting more palpable like the TVW rather than the original DH. So yeah F!DH needs special fog to work, but TVW doesn’t really need for summoning to exist it seems). There’s also the fact...Kagutsuchi is also there and his power might also have something to do with this cause, remember at the beginning I said sometimes there’s a god messing with the place to make that setting viable for summoning Personas? Yeah that’s probably what’s going on. Red Fog+Special DH+Kagu’s influence=TVW levels of card/natural summoning. Not the cleanest, but hey they at least tried giving us a reason! I’m at least happy for that! ;w;

So after briefing on the small issues (or just plot questions with PQ1/Ultimax), now for P4D. P4D it’s possible to summon your persona like in the TVW, but you can’t fight. So you instead dance to defeat your enemies.... So the area is similar to the TVW, BUT it has special rules (implemented by the god, so yeah a little god influence on the setting, but still the setting nonetheless is what dictates the summoning). Yeah that’s it, but it just strengthens the setting dictates stuff. 

So again, to reiterate what we know:

If a place is like the TVW, then card summoning is the default. 

DH and TVW are similar, but DH is a….”less palpable” TVW (probably cause it’s farther from the CU), so while card summoning is possible, it’s better to use the tool/evoker to help you. 

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker

So....let’s get to P5. P5 has the Metaverse, which has A LOT of distortion and cognition. I mean it’s possible that P1-4 have some cognition, but the Metavers is just…..there’s an abundance! Anyway, we know that P5 has outfits because it protects the user against the world (kinda like the TVW glasses, but unlike those, they aren’t a tool anyone can just.....use. Teddie makes the TVW glasses, PT outfits come with the summons). But they only get their cool outfit once they obtain their personas (either via fully or partially awakening their Persona, the persona has to at least be awakened). Thus the Persona is connected to the outfit, and the outfit is connected to the environment/setting. I should note that unlike the above screenshots, which are explicitly stated in the lore, this is implicitly stated instead. Something that isn’t outright said, but it’s backed up via consistency and repeating it (also this is the first consistent thing I found in P5! Yay! ;w;)

Anyway, it makes sense right? And without the need for an evoker (which...causes issues thanks to that world’s rules on guns), it seems that the natural way for summoning in a Metaverse-like setting, is a mask summon.

Ok. Now what’s the issue with PQ2?! 4-5ish pages in and still no answer I know. Well the answer is all three can’t exist at the same time. P5 can’t compliment either P3/4. Either P5/4 has to adapt to P3’s way of summoning, P5/3 have to adapt to P4′s way of summoning (aka everyone needs an evoker or everyone card summons), or P3/4 have to adapt to P5 (aka everyone gets an outfit and mask summons).  And here’s why:

We know P3/4 characters in a TVW like place can summon their personas like P4 kids. So it doesn’t matter what game you are from, if you are in the TVW you summon like the P4 kids. P5, if one has a persona in a Metaverse they should have an outfit, because P5 vanilla establishes that (again it’s implicit but nonetheless it’s established). So P3/4 kids should get an outfit if they were in the Metaverse because it’s the only logical thing that makes sense (aka this isn’t confirmed by Atlus, but by following the logic of their lore, the explicit content, and the implicit content, it leads to this conclusion). 

The issue is…. PQ2 tries to apply DH’s, TVW’s, and the Metaverse’ rules all at the same time.....that doesn’t work. While DH and TVW complement each other, TVW becomes the default if the two are combined. “But Silly you said that P3 cast can use Evokers in the TVW” Yes! But you see PQ2 doesn’t understand that....Because..... Minato couldn’t summon his Persona when he lost his evoker and had to rely on Aigis the entire time:

From what I can find, he’s never shown summoning his persona (even in a life/death situation, which is also odd in and of itself and a whole other issue) during this time. I don’t think it’s ever mentioned it’s because he’s tired, just because he lost his evoker. Except this shouldn’t be the case, because P4/5 can summon just fine WITHOUT an evoker, so an evokerless summon should be possible. And that’s the issue with PQ2 that PQ1 avoided, PQ1 didn’t call attention to this, while PQ2 made this a plot point and...well...made a really big plot hole (and a side plot hole with the whole life/death thing).

 Then there’s the DH and the Metaverse. Now Atlus was trying to fix the gun and evoker issue that well…..was created because of….(what is what got this post rolling) “Cognition.” Cause the Metaverse is like “If the gun looks real then it’s perceived as real! Even if it’s a fake gun.” And well….evokers are real guns who have been hollowed out (in english releases they changed it to fakes tho, but they are actually real guns). And well evokers and the Metaverse don’t mix well, and we’d have a lot of headless SEES. So Atlus tried to be like “Oh it just doesn’t work here!” But…….that reasoning doesn’t work, because the PT still have their outfits, and Mona is still in mascot form, which exists because of….you guessed it…”cognition”. And because of all that it leads to these questions:

Does this mean there’s a specific quantity of Cognition that needs to be met for there to be outfits but for fake guns not to work?

So how can there be enough cognition to dictate that they can have outfits but NOT guns?

How can Mona still be in his cognitive cat form at the lobby, but the rest of the team reverts back to their normal clothes despite both being connected to? He’s only ever in that form when the other teams are in their PT form (only time he isn’t is in PQ2’s lobby, and the early PVs of P5 which never appeared in the game)

Why doesn’t the P3/4 cast have PT outfits, despite the fact having a persona in a cognitive world indicates a PT outfit (at least implicitly via P5 vanilla)? 

Basically how is it that the P5 Kids are the only ones that seem to be affected by the Cinema’s World Cognition but no other groups are? Answer, there is no answer, it just doesn’t make any sense! And that’s just P3 and P5!

Now we have Metaverse vs the TV World. While they are both natural means of summoning, they can’t coexist at the same time. They are like night and day, they can’t exist at the same time in the same place. If there is that much cognition in the Cinema world, then everyone should get an outfit! Otherwise they’d just use cards! You have to choose one!

“But Silly! What if it’s how they obtained their personas? Like maybe the way P5 got theirs is why they are special?” And…...that’s the thing dear reader….that’s not the case. Because let me introduce my Smoking Futaba Cannon! You know what Futaba has in common with the P4 group? THE SAME KIND OF AWAKENING! Her awakening is different from EVERY OTHER P5 CHARACTER! Her awakening is the same as the P4 kids! She accepts her shadow, and gets her persona! But do you know two things are different between Futaba and the P4 kids? 1) The setting, and 2) She gets an outfit! :0 Oh dear, she gets an outfit….and…..the only thing different from the P4 kids is the setting? Wow it’s almost as if….the setting dictates how you summon a persona! :D So because Futaba, who’s awakening is a P4 awakening, gets an outfit. Then ALL P4 kids, who have a P4 awakening, now get an outfit when they are in the Metaverse! But wait! Remember how P3 was able to easily change to the P4 style of summoning? Well since P3 is similar to P4 in this sense, and P4 is similar to Futaba, who has a PT outfit…..then P3 would get an outfit as well! You get an outfit! You get an outfit! EVERY PERSONA USER GETS AN OUTFIT! 8D 

So what do we know now?

DH and TVW are similar, but if combined then the TVW rules overrule the DH rules

The DH seems to be closer to reality, while TVW and Metaverse seem to be closer to the UC which is why it’s easier to summon in the latter two.

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

TVW and Metaverse can’t coexist at the same time (one has to overrule the other)

Evokers most likely can’t work in the Metaverse the same way they can in DH or TVW. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings (aka TVW) tho, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker (or have Teddie glasses 8U)

Only Persona users (either fully awakened or partially) can obtain a Metaverse/PT outfit.

Awakening doesn’t define how you summon Persona, the setting does (see Futaba vs P5 and compared to P4).

Because of Futaba, P4 kids should get outfits in the Metaverse.

And because of Arena and how the P3 kids have the same summoning in the P4 setting, it goes to say they’d also get outfits in the Metaverse too.

If reverse engineer this, then that’d mean P5 kids would get cards in a TVW-type setting (or would have to use evokers in a DH type setting).

I spent way too much time on this

It all comes together! Nice and neat! Arena establishes that you get a card summon when you are in a setting like the TVW, and P5 establishes that Persona users get PT outfits in the Metaverse (with Futaba showcasing  it doesn’t matter how the awakening goes down you still get an outfit, which applies to P3/4). So, if the setting is like the Metaverse, they get outfits. If the setting ISN’T like the Metaverse, BUT INSTEAD, like the TV world, they do card summons. There the lore is nice and neat and clear cut!

…..EXCEPT! PQ2 …...just….makes no sense. ;w; It messes with all that is good and neat. ;w; And why? I don’t know! I can only think that, again, they chose the iconic looks of each game over the lore’s logic. Even if they were to say Enil made it so that the three types of settings could exist at the same time, it’s just…..too messy and wishy washy, and still doesn’t logically make sense (because of everything explained above). You can’t just mix water and oil! It’s just easier to choose a Metaverse or TVW type setting. 

Now how do we fix PQ2? This is something Atlus can fix in a re-release on like the Switch, and it shouldn’t be too bad depending on how they approach it. But before I get to that I’m going to explain a theory, this theory makes it easier to break down the different settings, and thus gives Atlus a nice binary choice.

My theory is that there’s a cognition spectrum in these settings. Real life has the lowest to non existing cognition, the P1/2/3/4/4U1/4U2/4D/Q1 are all on the “low cognition” side (there’s some but there’s not a lot) while the Metaverse is “high cognition” (aka there’s a lot). Like here’s a rough (aka not 100% accurate, it’s just a general idea) depiction of what I mean:

Again it’s just a general idea on where they fall in terms of high and low cognition. P5 is obvie a new entry with us now exploring high cognition, which can lead to maybe a couple cool things. Maybe different places on the high cognition spectrum give us different ways of summoning too (give me a sec for a side tangent to explore that concept). Here’s an example, we have one high cognition plane called the “Metaverse” and another one called “Uverworld.” In the Metaverse you get a PT outfit, and summon with a mask. In the Uverworld, instead you take on your Persona’s appearance, either Digimon Frontier style or Digital Devil Saga style. We could say the Uverworld has even more cognition/distortion than the Metaverse and that’s why it’s different. And if any persona user from P1-5 were to summon their persona in the Uverworld, they’d summon it the same way as the Uverworld Persona users. And the Uverworld Persona users would summon the same way as say P4/5 depending on if they were in the TV World or Metaverse. This is how we can keep the lore consistent.

Now how does this high and low cognition apply to PQ2, and how could it have fixed it (and still could if Atlus makes these changes in a remake/re-release)? Well basically….they’d have to choose between a TV World type setting or the Metaverse, and have all three teams adjust accordingly! And they can either do what I call low asset route or a high asset route (which coordinate with low and high cognition respectively). 

A low asset route, would’ve worked better for the original release on the 3DS (but I don’t recommend this for Switch re-release tho). It’d be that the PQ2 world operates like the TV World, everyone uses cards. That’d mean no one would get PT outfits (so less assets to make for the devs, and yes this includes P5 kids). Morgana, however, would have to remain in cat form (which shouldn’t be a problem, if we can give a dog a knife we can give a cat a knife 8U you can even have his character stats reflect something similar to Koromaru for the meta too!). P3 could still use their evokers if they want too! P5 the kids would probably crush the cards doing a similar pose they’d make if they had a mask, but tbh PQ doesn’t really show the characters in battle so we wouldn’t really need to worry that much. 

Or we could go with a high asset route (which I recommend for a re-release), in which there’s high cognition, aka the Cinema world is more like the Metaverse. Everyone would get an outfit, and cause it’s the metaverse you can introduce a gun mechanic into PQ2! It’d require more assets, making outfits for all the characters (tho keep in mind Mona should transform back into a cat and out of his outfit in the lobby like everyone else!) Which we’d probably really only see in cutscenes rather than battle. While this could complicate some scenes (such as Hamuko dressing up as a police officer-wait that scene already doesn’t make sense considering P5’s lore-no no stay on topic DX), the rewrites wouldn’t be as as if you took the low asset route (which would work if thought of from the beginning but….yeah). It’d just be a few convo lines, and like a scene or two. One big thing they could add is adding the gun mechanic (they can even add a fun convo with the P3 kids saying it’s hard getting used to the new summoning method). Fans would love to see outfits for P3/4 kids, lore would make sense, you could have funny conversations, new combat system. Def a thing people would love to see added into a re-release! Plus it gives it more of a P5 flair, and considering this has P5 as the main focal point it fits! You can even say that the 3DS ver is still canon, but it was an incorrect recollection of a character’s dream, which could explain the inconsistencies I have mentioned before. 

Oh and Minato/SEES can still carry their evokers in both scenarios, but Minato just gets tired from all the fighting and can’t summon his Persona anymore cause he ran out of mana. There that fixes that scene.

So there you go, PQ2 fixed (well summoning lore wise), Persona lore intact, and even a little guideline thrown in to help keep the lore intact! I know I didn’t go into how to rewrite every scene to adjust these changes….I could but not today. 

Anyway I dunno how else to end it but…...I hope PQ1/2 can be ported to the Switch (or another console as well?) soon! I just really want a dub of PQ2 ;w; orz

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

I feel you with that “Joker killed a god” stuff, but what gets me as well is whenever I see those discussions over “strongest group btwn P3-P5” I’ll see some comments saying Futaba could hack into Aigis and defeat her that way. And idk... that always really bothered me. Sure P5 already treats Futaba like a hacking god, but could she really hack into Aigis? I personally don’t think so, and even if she could, I doubt it would be for very long. Unless Futaba really is just that good *rolls my eyes* but what do you think?

Welp this one is new for me ;w; Welp, I can add it to my list of other takes I don’t like when it comes to hypothetical fights (under the cut for length):

Joker killed a god (so much wrong there)

SEES has Aigis so they win (I’ll def talk about this one since it’s relevant)

PT are more physically capable/have had more training so they win (I’ll explain this one too) 

P1/2 can use real guns and Personas in the real world so they win (usually when P1/2 are in the mix, I do think they could have a surprise advantage, but its not like P3-5 can’t use Personas IRL....it’s just that they’ve never had a chance....also the gun thing.....which I’ll get to, also they forget Aigis/Naoto have real guns dfklsjafjal)

P5 kids can use guns so they win (it’s similar to Aigis I’ll get to it, also did we forget about Naoto and Aigis????? ksldjfa;kjdfa;jf also those aren’t real so they are SOL if they aren’t fighting in the Metaverse)

Now I can add “Futaba hack win” to this list DX

Never stating if we are doing it ala PQ style (aka we’re ripping people out of their main game timeline, aka teens vs teens), or if it’s Arena style (aka we’re doing it as a sequel and it’s adults vs teens),I mean their strength is different between PQ and Arena so it’s fair (plus Labby and/or Sho might choose to side/help on P4′s side which is also important), basically there needs to be some kind a rules/basis of P3/4 chars so we know what version to pit against the PT otherwise it’s anarchy and we’re getting nowhere

Not stating which terrain they are fighting on (it is kiiiiiinda important, hometeam advantage)

Assuming a certain terrain is an insta win for a certain group (reality/Tartarus is a bit more of a struggle without evokers but not impossible, also SEES is kinda honorable and wouldn’t like the disadvantage even if it was still doable without evokers....except maaaaybe if lives are on the line that is kfljsafdajf, TV world is the most neutral but it really depends if it’s Arena style or not cause that determines if there is fog or not)

For reference, personally I’d put it at P2IS/P2EP>P3/P4>P5, still working on where P1 goes tbh so there are def gonna be changes, same with PTS, P2 manga is probs gonna be with the other P2 cast. And this list is my personal opinion AT THE MOMENT (cause I just know Atlus is gonnna screw over P3/4 in Arena 3, either cause they need to weaken them with it not making sense or they are gonna nerf them cause they haven’t been active in a long while >.> which def shouldn’t have been the case after Arena or at least Ultimax but nope still tier 1 Personas 8U) regardless if it is PQ or Arena style. It’s mostly cause 1) fusion spells (P2/3/4 have them, even tho P4 doesn’t call it that, it operates EXACTLY like a fusion spell so I’m categorizing it as such) and 2) P4 kids.....are pretty strong to hold their own/beat people who have upgraded Personas.

.......sorry side tangent there’s gonna be like 1 or 2 more but they are in relation to the topic (and it’ll be at the end) falkdsjakfj. But yeah that’s BS. And def something Atlus would do except they forget that the teams have hard counters against that. >.>

(might change if I remember something but atm I’mma just say it) Iirc Futaba’s Persona doesn’t usually hack people, her only two hacks in battle are against her own mother (”hacking my cognition” my ass, you just imagined it there, how about you imagine your mom away???? oh wait that should’ve happened before the damn fight and thus us not needing a fight so stupid!) -ahem- and when we get a insta hold up (which is really just her blinding the damn enemy it’s nothing hacky about it....so stupid)

Aigis literally willed her way out of someone remote controlling her, not even hacking, like a literal remote designed to control her and kill SEES....and she broke free of it. 

Arena style wise, Fuuka was able to break Labby free of control too, tho that was non-hacking and against a weakened god (would not be surprised if she trained that to Rise, and/or because it’s Futaba and not a god, Rise could probably do it as well.....since Rise knows how she just wasn’t strong enough against Kagu...but Futaba isn’t Kagu 8U). 

If it’s non-Arena style, it’s possible that Fuuka (and by extension Rise) could be susceptible to someone interfering with their Navi-ing, as seen with Chidori messing with Fuuka (even after she’s evolved)......but only Chidori has shown to have that type of ability not Futaba (and Chidori isn’t even a hacker so “hacking” isn’t really what’s going on ksdajf;a). It’d probs only work pre Arena (cause Fuuka is supposedly super strong in Arena), but it’d require Atlus to create a damn ability for Futaba that doesn’t exist yet. Also iirc Chidori’s really was just used to mask her/team’s whereabouts and used to relay a message (not mine control Fuuka)

if Futaba HAD this type of power, A) P5 would be a walk in the park, B) she would’ve used it iirc

In case Sho/Labby are allowed, Labby was also able to break free of her own remote control in Ultimax (thanks to S!Labby)

Fun fact, not a point, but apparently Aigis can possible reach her sister’s but not if they are being mind controlled (or “hack” as she said in Arena). I dunno something to note kfsljda;jf

So like.....no......I don’t think she could “hack” them. Hell, I don’t even think Sho was hacking Labby, I think he just has a similar remote control that his dado had (which he probs got what he needed from hacking the Kirijou/or his dad giving him info....need to replay Ultimax a bit tbh, but low key I think they just like using the word “hacking” fksdlajaj;fdjfkd), and Futaba would need to do that prior to the fight. And that’s not even counting that it’ll actually work (because of reasons listed above).

Now for the side tangent, it’s funny people think her hacking Aigis means insta win (or that Aigis is an insta win), and that the “PT are better cause they trained and are more physically fit plus they have the outfits that help them” and like no????? P3/4 (freaking they train too sakdljfa;jf what the hell?) but they also have crazy physical abilities. You think Chie can just punt a giant robot and not have her leg broken? Or Mitsuru can crotch shot a shadow with her boots and walk away fine? Like an 80 ft robot is a normal enemy for the IT, both SEES and IT are taking face shots from TANKS on a daily! Why else do you think SEES/IT can survive Takaya/Adachi’s bullets (or Jin’s bombs)? It’s because of their Personas that ANY team can survive being set on fire or electrocuted! XU The PT’s outfits are just a physical representation of their status as Persona users in the Metaverse tbh, it’s a cosmetic symbolism, doesn’t mean SEES/IT don’t have it too (and they should if they go into the Metaverse).

So yeah Aigis, or even guns, aren’t a deciding factor, esp when SEES/IT are shown to be able to handle/beat Aigis/Labby just fine klfjsdajfa Hell iirc they HAVE to beat (at least Shadow) Labby to even continue the series sdkaflajfja And she was tortured to be a literal fighting Machine! 

So yeah, hacking isn’t an isnta win (also forgetting Fuuka is a hacker too fkdasjfl;), Aigis/Labby isn’t an insta win, guns aren’t an insta win. 

“But Shinji died from a bullet” but Shinji nothing. 1) He didn’t have any armor on, and most IMPORTNATLY 2) He was willing to die, and considering P3 really puts an emphasis on will to live being a crucial part to summoning a Persona......and thus him not having his Persona activated at all made him not get the nice Persona perk that we usually have. 

But will Atlus do it despite it not making sense? Probably! Cause the PT are oh so special! uwu Even tho they’ve yet to prove themselves in being better than at least SEES/IT, let alone P1/2 cast. .....stupid temp buffs..... >.> can’t do anything without your stupid deus ex machina temp buffs can you Joker? Tbh, other Persona chars beating “Full Cognition Joker” would be the most Persona thing out there, so I don’t even think FC!Joker would win (not that there’s really a good organic way for him to get that back). “Full cognition Joker is like god level!” oh didja hear what other Persona chars like to do to these so called “gods”? 8U

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Princess is Hamu, or at least her reincarnation (part theory)

Minor spoiler warning (about how the PQ2 cast feels about the PT in PQ2), will be marked, at the VERY end, with lots of space before and after if you want to miss it.

Ok with Princess showing up I noticed some interesting similarities between her and Hamuko. Under the cut cause of pictures/length

First off it’s the color scheme, yes I know her hair is reddish, but they also aren’t consistent with her hair and eyes (funny cause people made a stink when I said Makoto stole Hamuko’s hair and eyes cause they both have brown hair and they were like “NO IT’S AUBURN! SHE HAS REDDISH-ER HAIR” and now that Princess has red hair y’all are sleeping smh, btw her hair was orange for some reason in PQ2 so yeah point still stands, not consistent). Her eye’s flop between red and brown all the time too, even within P3P (same with Goro) so that’s no surprise either. (if you don’t believe me here’s a comparison of FeMC’s ever changing colors)

Plus, tbh, her hair and eyes are very.....reddish-brown in certain shots so color shouldn’t be the deciding rule. (also they both rock the eyelashes, Hamuko is known for rocking eyelashes the most in P3, I guess Soejima didn’t know how to do those till post-P4)

Now let’s look at a few other things, such as the way she stands....it’s very similar:

Her knees tend to angle in and her feet close together. Also:

Very similar pose (also the only time we really see her outside of combat).

I know what you are thinking, I’m crazy, I’m looking too much into animations. But....I’ve always liked looking at the animations and the similarities (like how Yukari, Rise, and Anne have at least one pose where they have legs standing wide apart). And Atlus has shown to pay attention to this detail (as seen with Ren/Goro having Minato/Souji animations) it really feels like they are trying to draw a parallel here as well.

I also found that Princess bare’s a similar resemblance to the P3 Hero and Heroine aka Minty and Hamu’s (as well as Yukari’s, cause Soejima effed up not realizing the Heroine and Yukari were two different characters when he first started apparently 8U) beta design (bottom left one of the second pic to be exact):

There’s a few other things I want to point out that draw a connection, and that’s the title “Royal” and the connection to the FeMC. So like, I know I liked to make the joke (at least to myself) and other FeMC fans did this as well, but we’d say “FeMC isn’t a Princess, but a Queen!” (One reason I’m upset Makoto got that tbh) as it’s a reference to her song Wiping All Out. Now I think you can draw the conclusions to that so I’ll move on.

The last one is....a Theory, but hear me out it involves fall perfectly on the timeline in P5!

So I was very much a stickler for figuring out the P5 kid’s birth dates because of the lack of year in P5 (wow odd sentence there). And there’s something I noticed, Princess is a first year!

(oh would you look at that they have similar lips ah wait focus) So what does that mean, well it means she was born sometime between  April 2nd 2000-April 1st 2001 (follow that link above to find out where I got this), btw Futaba is Feb 19, 2001 (at the time I posted that one post above, we hadn’t gotten the birthday dates yet). 

What year did the Moonlight Bridge incident take place? 1999 according to every word every spoken in P3 (or 2000 if you want to go off Aigis’ birth year in the artbooks and fight game’s loading screen because ahahaha THAT’S NOT AN ISSUE AT ALL ATLUS AND I HAVEN’T BEEN TEARING MY HAIR OUT ABOUT IT AT ALL! ;W;), so...what am I saying? Princess is Hamuko’s reincarnation from the Bridge incident. When Minato was chosen, Hamuko died that night and was reborn a few months later as Princess (which means vice versa happened on Hamuko’s side in P3P). 16ish years later, boom we are in P5. 

So what does this mean? Well 1) I might’ve been right that the other P3MC exists on the other’s timeline even if they aren’t MCs (tho I didn’t consider reincarnation tbh), 2) It’d probably be a great way to capitalize on PQ2 and compare and contrast those two things. 3) It means I get Hamuko again~! :D

As for the voice, which seems a little higher/younger than Hamuko’s, it could be that it’s the same VA just making it higher/younger because she is a year younger than Hamu. Buuuuuuut it could also be a new VA.....not the first time they changed VAs even if it’s for a similar character (DramaCDs state Metis has Labrys’ mother’s face, but she and Labby have different voices, and then Labby/Labby’s mom and Metis have different VAs compared to Rei who is hinted to be the dead mom and alkjsdkl yeah). But I’m not the best with JPN VAs, but it sounds like Marina Inoue imo.

But other than that, yeah that’s what I squeezed out of it.

Oh yeah in relation to PQ2 btw, btw spoiler warning:

________________________________________________________________

In PQ2 the PT only say they are thieves, they don’t explain WHAT they steal in PQ2, thus no one really has an issue with them. Which means they get along, not exactly the hardest hitting game, but that’s fine as long as they utilize the animosity with the Arena games (or in this case, Royal). So yeah that’s why Hamu and everyone is pretty chill with the PT in PQ2. And it’d be a great juxtaposition with Princess if she was the FeMC, since they meet her but it’s not REALLY her (because they met her when she didn’t/wasn’t reincarnated). And it’d be a great time to utilize that connection, esp since she expressed having fun “being like a thief” in the first dungeon. 

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End spoilers