#I used to be a Byler but then S3 changed that

[bylerposting]

honestly i gotta commend ST for its portrayal of what being left-out/left-behind by your own friends feels like

as someone who’s unfortunately experienced that a lot growing up, the way they show it off is almost TOO well n I gotta remind myself that no, mike does not actually hate will this is a fictional story you know his character and why he made this choice, its irritating for a reason, art is supposed to make you feel a wide range of emotions and my brain is then like “ok yeah but look at how sad will is.”

I think Mike+Will being purposefully underwritten for s3-s4 and the two extremely long unintended delays between seasons just end up making this feel so much worse than it actually is. Part of me wants to call it bad writing and part of me LIVES for the angst it creates.

s5 recontextualization/payoff im counting on you 🙏🙏

[bylertruther]

mike telling will it's not his fault he doesn't like girls and will destroying castle byers to symbolize the loss of not only childhood innocence and what was but also the loss of his most treasured safe space. mike threw that back in his face—his biggest, most sacred and unspeakable truth; the one that's haunted his entire life and damned him to this—and he specifically ripped their photo down the middle while calling himself stupid and tore everything down because god dammit he WANTED to play dnd with mike forever and never get girlfriends because they were supposed to go crazy TOGETHER and being friends was the best thing they'd EVER done and now castle byers can't be his safe space anymore because it's been tainted. there's too much mike. there's too many reminders of his stupid, stupid dreams. it's no longer a safe harbor—it's just a reminder of his naivety, his childish dream that someone like him could ever get what he wants. and he's clearly still hurt by that because we knew previously that will trusted mike more than any other party member and even his family. he told him first about everything with the upside down and he was there through every part of his possession. will loves mike more than anyone, but after that rain fight he just doesn't trust him with that stuff anymore. "because what if they don't like the truth...?" with that knowing, searching glance. because he WANTS to tell mike. even now, after everything, he still wants to be honest with him. to be himself with him again. he's DYING to and we know that because will doesn't like to lie, least of all to mike, but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't so he rips the band-aid off and confesses under his own sister's name. an ugly compromise because he can't keep lying and he can't keep listening to mike think so lowly of himself but he can't be honest either. because he doesn't trust that mike will still like him afterward. if mike said that to him before he knew, what would he say after will confirmed it? like. GODDDDD THE ANGST OF IT ALL.....

[love-byers]

DM-GATE (a st/byler theory)

if you saw this last night, strap in. because this post is about that

so me and @reo-bylerwagon were talking about how weird mike's dialogue is in s4, specifically in his monologue. it's so....corny. his monologue just doesn't sound like stranger things. mike just doesn't talk like that ever. characters who are overly dramatic and corny are made fun of by other characters. the show just doesn't train you to accept something as corny as mike's monologue, especially from MIKE. mike just isn't that kind of character.

we also pointed this dramatic dialogue between mike and will in the van. will's monologue to mike is very sweet but the dialogue is kind of corny too. will compares mike to a knight in shining armor, leading and inspiring as the heart of the party.

and i, in a moment of completely oblivious genius, said "honestly in the monologue he uses the same voice he does when he's dm"

if you don't know what dm is, it means dungeon master. the dungeon master is the one in dnd who leads the adventure, the organizer.

this is the role mike has in season 1 when they're playing dnd. will is also dm in s3 when they briefly play, right before the byler rain fight. eddie is the only other character we see be dm.

dms have to be eccentric, they have to act. they have to be convincing. they have to lead and guide.

in the painting will gives mike, the party are depicted as their dnd characters. so no one can even say this isn't connected to dnd.

"See how you're leading us? You're guiding the whole party, inspiring us. That's what you do.

See your coat of arms here? It's a heart. I know it's sort of on the nose, but that's what holds this whole party together. Heart. Because, I mean, without heart, we'd all fall apart."

in the monologue when will calls back to their conversation in the van, this is symbolic of mike reverting back to his role as dungeon master, as leader. if mike has to lie in the monologue, of course he would pull from a role he's played where he makes things up and sounds convincing.

@reo-bylerwagon gave the best line ever, "he's being the mike in the painting"

and the craziest part is that's CANON. mike is inspired by what will says, he takes it to heart. he feels more confident. he tries to be the mike in the painting. it should be easy, to speak from his heart to el, but it's not, because he's not in love with her. in the monologue, mike is doing the same thing he does when he's dm. he's performing. he's trying to be convincing. he's trying to guide, to inspire.

also, @reo-bylerwagon said that will pushing mike to giving the monologue is giving "MIKE YOUR ACTION!!" WHICH IS SO FUCKING TRUE😭😭

after this realization i went back and watched the scenes where mike is dming. the VERY FIRST LINE OF DIALOGUE we hear in the show is mike dming. "Something is coming, something hungry for blood." and the second line?

i could never put a finger on why mikes language in the monologue seemed so weird. it's because he's talking like a dm. he's using the dramatic language dms use during a dnd session.

@reo-bylerwagon also pointed out that mike and will are piggybacking off of dnd to save el. everyone in the final fight was piggybacking.

will set the stage, mike executed. 

also, i mentioned the only other character see be dm besides mike and will is eddie.

and what is eddie's big moment in s4?

Master of Puppets.

MASTER. OF PUPPETS. DUNGEON MASTER. DUDE.

and another thing

we've all seen this, but it's not only that mike and will's characters are on the book.

it's a dungeon masters guide.

with mike and will's characters on it.

mike and will. the only party members we've seen be dungeon masters.

COME THE FUCK ON.

AND ANOTHER THING

"Dude, that's the donation box."

"I know, I'll just use yours when I come back. I mean...if we still wanna play."

"Well yeah but...what if you want to join another party?"

"Not possible."

this is a dm i got like 2 years ago that changed my brain chemistry:

this is NOT a reach. everything in st is compared to dnd. the duffers are massive dnd nerds. it is not unbelievable that they'd connect this to dnd as well.

[teambyler]

Will's anti-Vecna song should be David Bowie's "Heroes"

We know from the new BTS pic that he has headphones and a Walkman. Like Max, he might be fending off Vecna:

Max's anti-Vecna song was highly personal to her. It helped her through her guilt and depression and feeling like she deserved to die.

For Will, "Should I Stay or Should I Go" is cute, but it doesn't have emotional weight. It might have helped a child Will in the Upside Down in s1, when it made him think of home and Jonathan, but he's all grown up now. He's changed.

If Byler becomes realized, David Bowie's "Heroes" is the perfect song for Mike and Will's relationship that would help Will resist Vecna. It's canon that Will likes David Bowie: kid Mike prefers the androgynous rock star over Kenny Rogers (s2e1).

@surferbeto on YouTube comments:

This is a heroic love song. Bowie starts out crooning but pretty soon he ramps up and belts it out hard. This song is about risking getting shot by East German border police and dragged over barbed wire for love. This is about young love against impossible odds. It's about that gloriously tragic fantasy... of giving our life in some grandly romantic way to save the life of our beloved. Maybe by taking a bullet for them and dying in their arms in the shadow of the Berlin Wall.

Having David Bowie's "Heroes" in the show would call-back to Peter Gabriel's somber 2010 cover from s1, when Mike hugged his mom thinking Will was dead. But Bowie's original is defiant, triumphant, and bittersweet. (Seriously, if you haven't yet, listen to it before reading further. It's perfect.)

It would play when Mike and Will have their first kiss. Their song of losing each other is now of finding each other.

If Byler is realized, it could play as Mike and Will dare to hold hands in the school hall, as we fade out to the end credits.

Will would put it on his Walkman. If Will and Mike are bullied for their relationship, "Heroes" perfectly expresses their defiance and willingness to love each other despite the harm that might come to them.

It's the song that would most help Will in case he gets Vecna'd. It doesn't just remind him of Mike; it culminates his journey over the five seasons. As a kid he told Jonathan he's not a baby, not just a victim. Despite seeming shy and weak, he has a huge amount of quiet courage, but his struggle in s3 and s4 was largely internal. ("I'm not gonna fall in love.") Show creator Matt Duffer says about s5: "Will's going to be a big part and focus... We're starting to see his coming of age, really... You're starting to see him come into his own." If Byler becomes real, then his fight becomes external, confronting the homophobia in Hawkins and the literal hell threatening his friends. He will rise to the occasion.

"Will really takes center stage again in [season] 5," Ross Duffer told Variety. "This emotional arc for him is what we feel is going to hopefully tie the whole series together. Will is used to being the young one, the introverted one, the one that’s being protected. So part of his journey, it’s not just sexuality – it’s Will coming into his own as a young man."

In s2, Will only allowed Mike to protect him because he didn't feel pitied by Mike; Mike saw his strength. A stronger Will will pay him back and protect him from the twin dangers they face.

It's Will's turn to be the hero. His fight for others is his fight for himself. "Heroes" perfectly expresses his journey of defying all odds to fight for HIS RIGHT TO LOVE.

-teambyler

[will80sbyers]

Byler endgame parallels GIFs masterpost:

Byler & Rovickie parallels

Byler Vs. M*leven - Stupid & Crazy code + Jopper

Byler & M*leven contrasting parallels

Mike reacting in the same way for El & Will

Byler, Lumax, Jancy find their lovers + El saves herself

M*leven/St*ncy/Boyce/Tedren kiss at the start of the season = not compatible enough

M*leven/St*ncy parallels -> it's not true love

St*ncy & Mil*ven fight "What is wrong with you?"

Mike/Ted/Steve parallels

Byler & Jopper parallel in s3

Byler & Jopper parallels

Mike and El don't understand each other anymore

All the couples holding hands in the show

Byler & M*leven: Understanding each other Vs. Not

Mike grieving for Will & El in the same way

Mike hearing Will & El on the radio when they are missing

Mike thinks Will & El died and then gets a hug from his mom

Will & El lose consciousness and Mike is worried for them

Mike fights someone to defend Will & El

Mike is worried for Will & El after something UD related happens

Mike makes the same love expression looking at El & Will

Byler & Jancy: the Byers make the Wheelers smile

Byler & Jopper: Joyce and Mike romantic moment + guilt

Byler & Jopper: Hopper and Will look at Joyce and Mike from a distance

M*leven & Stancy: something romantic happens to you when your best friend is being killed

Byler/Jancy/Jopper: roadtrip together looking for someone

St*ncy/M*leven/Boyce: make out at the start of the season because they are not compatible long term

Mike & others trying to change themselves and seem cool for their partners -> not true love / not working out

M*leven/Jancy/Lumax/Jopper/Byler: denying a romantic implication

The interruption trope being used for all the romantic couples

Willelmike love triangle framing

Byler & Jancy parallels part 1

Byler & Jancy parallels part 2

Byler/Jancy/Jopper/Lumax talk about killing the monsters

Love triangle framing + El breaking free from it

Byler/Jancy/Jopper/Lumax sharing a nice moment together... near a vehicle

Byler & Lumax parallels part 1

Byler & Lumax parallels part 2

Byler/Lumax/Jopper thinking they lost someone they love

El choosing to leave Mike behind

Steve/Dustin/Mike idealizing someone they think they love

to continue...

BYLER PARALLELS WITH OTHER SHOWS:

HEARTSTOPPER

Byler & Nick X Charlie parallels

Mike is trying to look cool for El and not being himself like Tao was briefly

Nick's speech about heteronormativity fits Mike and his behaviour on the show

HALF BAD

The same framing of the queer love triangles

I AM NOT OKAY WITH THIS

to continue....

PARALLELS FROM THE IT SAGA

Byler & Benverly

[robynrocksforbrains]

Mike Wheeler is important and there's nothing wrong with analyzing him

Since y'all wanna be insufferable bitches about it I'm gonna explain to you why he's important, why Will loves him, why his struggles should be acknowledged, and why his character depth is pivotal to byler endgame being a satisfying conclusion for both Mike AND Will. Deal with it!

We are not seeing smoke where there isn't a flame. We are seeing smoke where there is a literal fucking forest fire.

Starting off with something a lot of people aren't ready for but I've seen more people talking about: Mike is the main character of s1 at the very least. He is the character that brings us into the world of stranger things. He is the character that the writers chose for this. Mike is the main character of s1 and it was an instant hit. The writers love Mike. Contrary to popular belief, giving a character an arc where they are struggling and their behavior changes from what is normal for the character we know and love does NOT mean the writers hate that character. It means they deliberately chose to give that character complexity and depth. Your inability to like characters that do anything wrong ever is not the fault of the writers. Your decision to act as if a character is not important is not reflective of the actual narrative because it in fact is in direct opposition to the narrative. So just to be clear, if you genuinely believe that Mike isn't important, or that the writers hate him, or don't care about him, or that his story "takes away" from any other character's - ESPECIALLY WILL'S - you are simply wrong.

In s1 and s2 Mike is established as an extremely caring person. He's loving, loyal, brave, intelligent, and trying his best. He is also established to be hot headed, someone who speaks without thinking quite often, someone who is capable of hurting his friends despite that being the last thing he wants to do. He is all of these things and more. He is a human. He is a kid. So in s3, when suddenly he is entirely different, it is completely logical to assume that there is a reason for that. He did not just wake up one day and decide he wanted to be an asshole, push Will away, make his friends feel abandoned, and echo the same sentiments their bullies held. Something is happening with him. He has so much going on in his head and it is painfully obvious. He's holding something in, he's hiding from everyone and from himself. We see glimpses of what he's trying to hide after Will calls him out on his behavior. Will gets through to him. Mike is usually unresponsive to tough love, except for when it's coming from Will. After their fight, it is obvious that he's trying to be better. But he still doesn't wanna face certain things, and he doesn't know how to navigate that. Because he's 13 years old.

There is a reason for all of that internal conflict. There is a reason it comes pouring out of him at certain times. He's crumbling. He is quite literally falling apart because he's holding on to too much. It's not a stretch to assume that, it just takes basic media literacy. Why would the writers have Mike act this way if he was just supposed to be a one dimensional character? Why would Finn be directed to portray Mike the way he does if there was nothing more going on? There are times where Mike looks like he's in physical pain because of his internal conflict. There is a reason for that. And acknowledging that DOES NOT mean people are taking away from Will. That's the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Do y'all seriously not understand that more than one character can have emotionally complex storylines? Genuinely asking, is this a new concept for you?

Will's love for Mike

Will is head over heels in love with Mike. That is very much established. So when you're dismissing the emotional depth of Mike's individual arc because you think acknowledging it "takes away from Will" you are actually diminishing the significance of a huge aspect of Will's emotional arc. By taking away the significance of Mike, you take away from the significance of Will.

Let's do a quick recap of the very significant role Mike has played in Will's entire life:

Mike is Will's first friend.

They have grown up together and it can be assumed that they've reached important milestones together.

Mike has always been a safe person for Will. He's been a constant in Will's very chaotic and unfair life. Until the summer of '85, Mike had always been something good in Will's life. (That's not to say he is no longer something good, but it can be assumed that the summer of '85 is the first time Mike has been a causal factor in Will's unhappiness)

When Will went missing, Mike did not hesitate to search for him. It wasn't even a question of if. The moment he knew Will was missing he knew exactly what he'd be doing that night. He spearheaded the search amongst the party. He was the leader.

When Will came back, Mike was the only person that didn't treat him like he was gonna break. He cared for him, and he was there for him, but he didn't treat him differently; Will tells us as much. Which means we can infer that the way Mike was with Will in s2 - how gentle and loving he was - was nothing new. He had just always been like that.

When Will was possessed, Mike stayed by his side. Even when it was scary, even when it could've gotten him killed, he stayed. Because once again, for him, it wasn't even a question. That's just where he knew he needed to be. He was in the shed when they were trying to get through to Will. He was set apart from Lucas and Dustin, but he also wasn't equated to family. And his retelling of the story of the day they first met was the final push Will needed to find a way to communicate.

After a year of things being "weird" between them, Mike tells Will that he didn't deserve to be treated the way he had been. Mike tells him that he wants them to be okay again, and for the rest of the season he puts in the work.

Things get rough in s3, and at the beginning of s4, and despite all of that, Will confesses his love (albeit veiled). In a moment where Mike is feeling awful about himself, he tells him that he loves him and needs him, and he tells him why. And to him it doesn't matter that he's breaking his own heart to do it, because it's Mike. Mike, who makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all, and that he's better for being different. For Will, there was no other option. The person he loves was hurting and he knew how to help, and so he did.

Mike is the first person Will tells about Vecna still being alive. Because they're back to being a team. He knows he can trust Mike, and Mike seems to be very determined to prove him right.

SO.

These are all real and canon aspects of Mike's presence in Will's life. Will falling in love with Mike isn't something that just happened for no reason. Will fell in love with Mike because of who Mike is. When you acknowledge that, and when you acknowledge the reasons they've set out for why Will loves him - the reasons Will literally told us - you can better understand Will. But when you dismiss all of these things about Mike, you are dismissing a large portion of Will's emotional and romantic arc. You aren't being a Will Warrior. You are erasing so much of him and his feelings and his lived experience. That is not the hill you wanna die on.

Will loves a person. Not a feeling. Yes, he says that Mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake and that he's better for being different. But that's not why he loves him. He feels that way because he loves him.

Mike is a fully fleshed out character with his own feelings and struggles and fears and traumas and motivations. He's not a plot device. He's not just an accessory to Will's arc. He's not a character that was written only to be Will's love interest. He's Will's love interest because he's Mike.

If Mike didn't matter, and if Mike didn't play a significant role in byler, then they would be able to write in a love interest for Will in s5 and have it be somewhat satisfying. But they can't do that. Will's love for Mike has so much depth because Mike has so much depth. It is genuinely crazy that this has to be stated and that I have to back up this claim because it is simply a canon fact.

So yes, the rain fight affects Mike's character development and his involvement in it is important. Yes, the van scene literally could not exist without Mike and therefore his involvement in it is incredibly important. Yes, every single byler moment has an impact on Mike, and Mike has an impact on it because they are BYLER moments. Yes, Mike will have a lot of significant moments - with Will AND on his own - in s5 because his arc deserves and needs as much attention as Will's in order to execute byler endgame in a satisfying way.

No, none of these facts negate Will's importance or take away from his story. If anything, they add to it because Mike and Will's arcs are corresponding and intertwined.

Mike's struggles

To name a few

Dysfunctional family

Has been bullied his entire life

Extreme self worth issues

Inferiority complex

Hero complex

Lack of self preservation

Suicidal ideation (has been on display since SEASON ONE)

Internalized homophobia

To get this out of the way: Mike's internalized homophobia is allowed to be discussed. Discussion of it is not the dismissal of Will's internalized homophobia. Surprise surprise, two queer kids in the 80s have internalized homophobia! Who'd'a thunk it?! Their internalized homophobia presents in different ways but it is there for both of them. I personally relate to the way Mike's is portrayed way more than I relate to Will's. So why is it that we can't discuss it without being accused of erasing Will's experience? Or without people saying that we're "copy and pasting" Will's story? Because quite frankly, that feels dismissive of my - and likely many others' - real and lived experience. So please for the love of all things that are good just stop with this talking point because it will never hold up.

Moving on

I'm not gonna do a full breakdown of all of Mike's issues. Because contrary to popular belief, there are a lot. And that would be exhausting and I'd get carried away and it's not the point of this post. The point of this post is to defend the acknowledgement and mere existence of them.

If you're a byler that for some reason thinks Mike only exists to be Will's love interest and his trophy as compensation for his trauma, let me ask you this: Have you considered how awful it would be to have a queer character's individuality and emotional depth completely ignored for the sake of focusing on the queer character that "really matters"?

If Mike's own issues, with his queer identity and otherwise, aren't thoroughly explored... What's the point of all this? If Mike really is insignificant in this storyline and his individuality has no effect on it.. where's the emotional payoff? If his perspective doesn't matter... Why have the writers gone to such great lengths to ensure we don't have that piece of the puzzle yet?

Analyzing Mike and understanding Mike is very important to understanding byler. Once again, I think it's crazy that this needs to be said.

I also think it's important to note that characters can have similar struggles. There's no rule against that. Just like real life. Characters having similar struggles is not a bad thing, and acknowledging that their struggles are similar is not dismissive of either character. We're talking about STRANGER THINGS. Jonathan and Nancy's thing is "we've got shared trauma". They have literal matching scars. Shared experiences are some of the main building blocks for this show's romances. Byler has a TON of shared experience, basically their entire lives. We already know that. So wouldn't it be so beautiful for them to learn that they've been struggling with the same thing this whole time? That the entire time they felt alone in what they were going through when really they had each other and they never even knew it? Wouldn't it be so beautiful for Mike's acceptance of Will and Will's love for him was also a step toward accepting himself? Wouldn't it be beautiful for Will to learn that his love makes Mike feel like he's not a mistake? None of that would be in the realm of possibility if Mike didn't have emotional depth and if his individuality wasn't important.

And that leads me to my concluding point...

A satisfying execution of byler endgame hinges on Mike's individual emotional arc being handled well

God I hope this isn't controversial to say. I sincerely hope most people haven't forgotten that.

Here's a hypothetical:

Imagine season five has been released. You're watching it, and you notice that Mike has been relegated to just a supporting character for Will. We don't get any of his perspective. We don't get any explanation for his s3 and early s4 behavior. His breakup with El doesn't have any real tangible effect on him, it's really just used for El's character development. We never see him pining for Will like we saw Will pining for him. And then suddenly Mike is learning about the painting and then suddenly he's confessing his love and then suddenly byler is canon and official.

Now wouldn't that just be awful? Wouldn't that be unfair to the audience, to Mike, and to Will? For us to never learn just how much Mike had to go through to even be able to say it out loud? For Mike to never get the chance to prove to himself through word and action that he is the heart? For Will to never get an explanation for why things did get so "weird" between them? It would leave us with one big, nagging question: What was the point of everything Mike has said and done throughout the entire show if his conclusion is that lackluster?

Disregarding Mike for a moment (I know that's incredibly ironic given what the entire point of this is but just bear with me) - how would that be a satisfying conclusion for Will? I mean, Will's s4 arc was basically dedicated to showcasing his struggle with his sexuality and with his love for Mike. We were shown just how deep that love is. We were shown how patient, unselfish, unwavering, and beautiful that love is. So how would it be satisfying for Mike's love for him to not be shown with just as much depth? How would it be satisfying for Mike to just be a one dimensional character whose s5 arc is essentially "break up with girlfriend, wait to find out best friend is in love with him, say he loves him back, then they live happily ever after"? I think Will deserves for his love to be returned with the same intensity at which he gives it. And I think it should be clear to the audience and to Will himself.

Back to Mike!

Mike has been through so much shit. I don't think anyone that is denying that actually believes he hasn't been through shit. Because you'd actually have to watch the show on mute and with your eyes closed to think this kid hasn't had just the worst time. It's so ignorant to act as if this stuff hasn't affected him. There's stuff we've seen but there's stuff we also haven't seen. There are issues he has that date back to his childhood pre-canon. Just like Will, Mike has been a queer kid growing up in 80s smalltown conservative america. Acknowledging the pain he 100% carries because of that is so important. His perspective has been withheld from us, not because it's unimportant, but because it's the final puzzle piece. If we had Mike's perspective in s4, byler wouldn't be a "will they won't they" (even though we all know they will). If we got his perspective in s4, byler would be a "100% certain without a doubt they will". But the thing about his perspective is that it's so much more than just loving Will. It's fear. It's pain. It's insecurity. It's doubt. It's the belief that his happiness just doesn't matter all that much. All of that has to be explored. All of that has to be laid out in the open for us in order for byler endgame to feel earned. Mike's emotional payoff will lead to byler's emotional payoff.

Mike has known he loves Will. In s5 we will see him make a deliberate and active effort to overcome the things keeping him from doing something about it. And then he will do something about it.

And so when it finally happens. When both Mike and Will finally know that their feelings are requited, and when their arcs end with us knowing that they will face whatever life has in store for them together, that will feel earned. That will feel like the logical conclusion for both of them. Not just for Mike. Not just for Will. For both.

And Mike is just as important to that conclusion as Will is.

And one last thing...

Some people are going to talk about Mike more. Some people are going to talk about Will more. Because newsflash, people have preferences. Some people just relate to Mike more, or they find his emotional arc extremely compelling, or they just like him. It isn't an attack on Will or any other character. No one is saying Mike is more important than any other character (I'm sure there are people that say that but they are a vocal minority and they are simply wrong). We are just saying that he is important. If you wanna engage in media analysis, please understand that "main character" or "central character" does not mean "only important character" and "only character that should be analyzed". If you wanna talk about Will and only Will, that's fine. But you don't get to act like people that talk about other characters are doing a disservice to your fave, because that's not how any of this works.

[emblazons]

So (because I cannot go three seconds without noticing new little things that tell the wider story in this show):

Let’s talk about how the music that plays during the S3 Byler fight is the exact same music that plays during the S4 conversation Mike & Dustin have with Lucas as they walk to class after the pep rally—

—and how that parallel gives us insight not only into how Mike (and his devotion to Will) has evolved between seasons 3 and 4….but also how The Duffers are evolving Mike as a character in the wake of the "conflict" of forced conformity they introduced in S3.

To start: here are snippets of both scenes where “Not Kids Anymore” plays, both in Season 3 and Season 4.

Now, even though Mike is present in both scenes, it’s not entirely obvious why these things would be parallels, given the radical difference in tone. That said: when we look at these scenes in their wider contexts, we see that they are both exploring the exact same issue, only with Mike on opposite sides of the convo each time—

—namely, whether or not its worth it for Mike to embrace conformity, given that there are behaviors/roles he is meant to fill when trying to keep up with being normal/growing up...and "society" says that DnD / nerdiness (and a refusal / lack of desire to participate in performative relationships) stands entirely apart from that.

Let me see if I can explain.

First: these things are parallels because they are asking us to compare the Mikes in each situation—to notice how he took Will’s words to heart, and decided on some level that Will was right, not him. How do we know? Because in the time between these two convos (aka the rain fight and then the first few episodes of S4), we learn that Mike has made a point to address and rectify all criticisms Will had of him & his behavior during the rain fight.

As of the very first episode of S4, we are shown that Mike is 1) paying attention to both the party/DnD the way Will criticized him for not doing (to the point of calling out Lucas for not prioritizing it the way he now wants to)—

—2) he is focusing on keeping closeness with Dustin (even to the point of judging Lucas for not doing the same), because Will accused him of ignoring Dustin as readily as he ignored him—

—and 3) he has entirely stopped "swapping spit" with El (to the point of removing her from a hug at the airport, kissing her on the forehead...and then never kissing her again lmao) while letting his relationship fall apart without much of a fight…right before apologizing to Will for letting El get in the way of their time spent together in the first place.

Basically: even though he is still struggling in many ways to defend himself from being bullied/being an outcast by hiding behind his relationship with El (the same way Lucas is with “being popular” and basketball), we can see that Mike has made clear strides towards embracing the sides of him that aren’t conformist, which is reflected in all of his decision-making in Will's absence.

Though Mike is getting older and the party “aren’t kids anymore,” them paralleling these scenes is showing us that Mike, at least on some level, has realized that growing up is not at odds with embracing the things he enjoys & his various identities, whether that be through playing DnD—

—wearing clothes he chose on his own—

—or willingly choosing closeness with Will over the performance of relationships with girls (the same way Will already had in Season 3, and Dustin reflected as well).

Now...this isn't to say that he's entirely succeeded at the task, given how many times we see him fumble through actually implementing these changes/revelations in himself, whether with clothes (hello 'shitty knockoff'), embracing his actual interests, or even letting himself want to admit he wants to be with/around Will and not El—

—on top of the fact that I've already talked (many, many times) about how the journey of "feeling like you lost" the Duffers took us on had Mike ending up in a position where "conformity" temporarily wins, how that plays into his relationship with El versus Will, and why it matters for his character even outside of his queerness.

Still: I think this parallel in particular is important to understanding his character because it rules out any idea that Mike is somehow oblivious rather than intentionally working through to the changes happening in himself, whether they be in regards to him re-choosing DnD, making decisions about his clothing for himself...or wanting to be closer to Will / not participate in "liking girls," which is what he gets projection-mad at Will about during the rain fight.

tl;dr: Mike has realized on some level that he wants to be more like / closer to Will than his S3 "conformity" self—and the war we see on his face throughout the season in conversations with Will has a lot to do with that, among other things.

This musical parallel in particular draws attention to the fact that there have been changes happening within Mike that he sees and recognizes—he just "lost" like every other character this season, aka failed at walking into a more secure sense of self / out of his "conformist" relationship in its entirety...which we'll resolve in S5. :)

[blueberri3s]

This is probably insignificant, but has anyone noticed how in the version of „Heroes“ by Peter Gabriel that is played when Mike hugs Karen crying after Wills body was dragged out of the lake and when Mike hugs Karen after the Byers move away,

It has the lyrics „I, I wish I could swim“ but the original song by David Bowie has the lyrics „I, I wish you could swim“

Now given the context of the first scene (Will supposedly having drowned) this song sounds as though it is from Will‘s pov.

Obviously we know that the song „Heroes“ is a romantic song specifically about a love thats not supposed to happen

Cause we’re lovers, and that is a fact. Yes we’re lovers, and that is that. Though nothing will keep us together. We can beat them for ever and ever.

So I was thinking… Obviously we know how people believe that after having the Peter Gabriel cover in S1 and S3 (not season 2 nor 4 so there is a pattern) that it will play in S5 but this time the original version by Bowie.

If this is the case imagine how it would fit into the Byler storyline.

The Peter Gabriel version could be in Will‘s pov due to the change of the „you“ to „I“ in the line „I, I wish you/I could swim“

Then in S5 assuming that Mikes feelings are revealed, the original song is played where it’s from Mikes pov because he wishes Will could swim „I, I wish you/I could swim“ This time the love song comes from Mike.

I hope this makes sense!

(This is just a rant because I found the change of lyrics interesting)

[perexcri]

fic recs!!

i woke up to being on a couple of fic rec lists and really appreciated it, so i wanted to capitalize on the nice energy and make a list of some of my own favs that i've read recently that i didn't necessarily see on the other lists :D check these out because they have some of the best prose/plots/characterization that i've read in the fandom :] 💜

one soft infested summer (M, 18k+, 3/7 ongoing) by @wheelersboy - this one is perfect for all the highler fans out there! it's got stoner byler of course, a music festival, lots out camping, and some really amazing writing! i started it just for the fun stoner vibes because Why Not, but i'm staying for the beautiful writing and the really complex and delicate relationship mike and will have in this one

Light Sleepers (T, 15k+, 2/6 ongoing) by @helioleti - WillEl-centric fic set during the time gap between the end of s3 and the beginning of s4 that explores their dynamic and their respective problems with mike, all while trying to cope with moving across the country from everything they know. each chapter is meant to reflect a certain stage of grief, which fits so well with all the complicated emotions everyone is going through!

drank my poison all alone (T, 4k, one-shot) by silverluminoqity - mike gets vecna'd and has to face his past self who's ashamed of who he's grown up to be, and my dudes the writing goes SO HARD. by far one of the best mike gets vecna'd fics i've read with such a good take on his character

star eater (T, >1k, one-shot) by @lowlightt - another fic where the writing does not play. honestly if you have a few minutes, READ THIS FIC. it's mostly just a confrontation between will and vecna, but it's so so powerful and impactful. and again, i cannot state it enough: the writing is AMAZING

tell me again (you said yes) (M, 32k, 3/3 complete) by @willow-lark - hey remember when cleradin was like a Thing for a brief second a few months ago? well if you miss those vibes, or if you just like great writing and some of the best weaving of canon into a fantasy au i've ever read, please look no further than this fic (and it's first part, fireball him! (cast protection)). i love this one dearly and enjoyed the wonderful ways Lark wove canon (specifically s1) into such a different setting, plus it was nice to see many of the other characters play a role in the events. beautiful, astounding, heart-wrenching - and did i mention there's an elopement 👀

In Undertow (M, 17k+, 3/6 on-going) by @souverian-are-we - this and one soft infested summer have become my summer byler reads~ when i say i love this fic, i mean you will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands 🥰 we've got estranged byler, jancy engagement with some stoncy going on in the background, and most of the characters still reeling from the consequences of their final battle with the upside down. it's all set at a lake house, which provides some breathtaking/atmospheric writing that this author uses to their advantage. it has some of my favorite scenes i've ever read in fic too, ones that have literally taken my breath away

california show your teeth (T, 77k+, 10/19 on-going) by @fireflywitch - what if the Byers and Hopper families were from Lenora and moved to Hawkins? this fic takes this one simple premise and turns it into one of my favorite fics i've ever had the pleasure of following along with. it essentially functions as a retelling of s1 and s2, gives almost every main character that's been featured in the show thus far a lot of time and space for their own plots, all while culminating into one larger story underneath. i don't think i've read a fic quite like this one in terms of its scope, plotting, and characterization, because there are a lot of moving parts, but this author goes above and beyond. i cannot recommend it enough

all i know is pouring rain (and everything has changed) (T, 3k, one-shot) by @willelfanpage - i think i read this one at the beginning of my workday while i was running some report on my computer and had to go about the rest of my day as if everything was fine ahah :'D seriously though, it's 3k words that pack an emotional punch all while examining will's relationship to rain. the writing is just gorgeous, and it's a character study that i haven't really seen done before, which was quite enjoyable~

Chasing Heartlines by (T, 7k+, 1/2 on-going) @cherryisgone - if you liked Tip-Toeing on Lilypads then may i direct you to its sequel, which features so much pining mike that he might as well be a tree? again, if you like cleradin/fantasy aus, then Cherry my beloved has you covered 💜 it fits so neatly with Lilypads and provides some fun contrast between will and mike~

Touch Me Like You Know Me (M, 15k, 4/4 complete) by @starsarefire824 - this exists in the rare pantheon of fics that actually made me cry. imagine an estranged byler reunion with all the emotions turned up to an eleven, and lots of lingering on lost time and how life sometimes takes us places we never thought we'd go. it's absolutely beautiful and is a classic to me :]

come back to me and forgive everything (T, 78k, 18/18 complete) by @howtobecomeadragon - i saw a lot about this one when it was on-going but am only just now getting around to reading it, and all i can say is why did it take me so long to get to it :') this author does such a good job of writing will and mike's relationship with a lot of nuance and complexity while still managing to make them feel like the teenagers they are. basically, will has to spend every july at lonnie's house in indianapolis, and for this summer in particular, the event is a lot more emotionally impactful for both mike and will. there's lots of emotional depth, the complexities of coming out and/or realizing you're queer, and, at the heart of it, how two friends try to mend things between each other. it's so soft and sweet

that's all i've got for now!! i'm quickly running out of time on my lunch break :'D also haven't been writing as much, but it's been fun to read more and relax a bit. hope you guys enjoy these because they're genuinely some of the best stuff i've had the pleasure to read in a while 💜💜💜

[erikiara80]

March 22nd and all the birthday references in ST

Will's birthday has always been important.

A birthday mug in episode 1

Same mug in Mike's basement. We see it in scenes with El in S1 and Will in S2. Yeah, I think birthdaygate could be about her, too. Will is the only character whose birthday was used to literally save him and the whole town. And we've seen El's birth and birth certificate, but we still don't know when she was born? Strange

The I forgot your birthday card in Will's room in S1

But in S2 we only see it when Joyce looks at the Will the Wise drawing. In all the other shots the card is not there, and the drawing is on another wall. This could be a hint at different timelines (of a timeloop?) More screenshots here

Basically, I have two theories about Will's birthday: either people really forgot it in S4, or the Will who was born on March 22 is the brown-eyed Will in the Missing poster, in the timeline we see in the shed scene, and not the hazel-eyed Will we see in the rest of the show. Maybe they hid the truth in plain sight, they let people believe that his eyes were different because he was possessed. But then in S3 they show that Billy's eye color never changes (here) Can't wait to see what this means

No birthday card in these shots

Lesbianmindflayer found a video posted on the official IG account in August 2017. At the time, they had already filmed S2, they knew there was an important scene about Will's birthday, so why posting the wrong date? Is it actually a mistake, or that's really his birthday in another timeline? We'll see!

The amazing shed scene. One of my favorite! Joyce talks about Will's 8th birthday. That was in 1979, the year of the massacre. She also mentions his rainbowship, a hint at his queerness, but also a reference to the lab. And I think there's a connection to the "rainbow rocket" near Creel House, and the ship of Brenner's father, who was involved with Project Rainbow, and the first man to wind up in Dimension X. This scene is so important!

Will drawing a spaceship could also be a parallel to Olivia Dunham (Fringe), who drew what she saw in another universe. A Zeppelin

Olivia's drawing (Byler-Polivia parallel and Subject 13)

3x03. Happy Birthday and '76 on the poster. The lifeguard is talking to El and Max here. My theory about what this could mean and what might have happened in 1976 here and here

The original title of episode 3x06 was The Birthday. There is no birthday in that episode, but after the intro, the song that plays is Stand up and Meet your brother, and then El meets the Mind Flayer/Vecna (as a lab kid, Henry is kinda her brother), who is possessing a boy named William. A surfer boy.

Episode 3x08, posters of Firestarter and Sixteen Candles. Will is associated with fire, and in Sixteen Candles a girl hopeful thar her 16th birthday is the beginning of a great year, is shocked when her family forgets it because her sister is getting married the next day.

Sixteen Candles and a boy's 16th birthday are also mentioned in S4, and it is likely that S5 is set in 1987, after the time-jump, when Will is 16.

S4. There are so many mentions of birthdays in this season, it's crazy to think that the writers forgot Will's birthday.

Mentions of birthday and stolen thoughts in the opening scene.

Birthday party at Rink-o-mania. I could be wrong, but it looks like a party for two people, to me. And there's a hidden reference to the massacre. The game Asteroids was released in 1979 (here)

The scene that made many people believe that the writers forgot Will's birthday.

March 22. The Rink-o-mania scene is a parallel to the lab scenes, Asteroids was released in 1979, and the day of the massacre El remembered her birth. Maybe a hint that her birthday is also on March 22?

They call her little baby, and two of the bullies are twins.

Murray says that a one-year-old won't remember their birthday

Also, the wallpaper reminds me of these birds we see in his house, when Alexei explains how the two keys open a gate

Murray says that his "son" is almost 16

Mention of Sixteen Candles

Mike's Happy Birthday mug

At Suzie's, Will mentions Dustin's birthday

Yeah, I think something will happen to Will in 1987, when he's 16. And it won't be funny, lol. But he'll get his happy ending.

Happy birthday, Will!

[catwouthats]

“Why are you getting more and more confident about lokius??”

I was an ineffable bureaucracy shipper before it was canon.

I said “Hey look at the possible meaning behind Gabriel trying to smash a fly with the “commit adultery” Bible” and was fucking right

I am also a byler truther. (There is so much for this I’m not even gonna start)

I took a film class(es) and learned about cinematography, mise em scene, symbols and motifs!!

I used what I learned from film class (and from gender race and film class) to discover the key differences in queer coding and queer baiting. (Usually queer baiting involves more so how it is advertised and joked about. Queerness is not taken seriously and it is teased in queerbait.)

I am unofficially studying queer film rep from a sociological lens as society/viewers have changed (or is it economical since it has to do with money, supply and demand… but it also has to do with the viewers and believes?… what social science am I using-)!!

While it is definitely not 100% possible for lokius to be canon, it gets more and more possible with each episode in my eyes.

With all the symbols, parallel, cinematography, music choices, etc that go in to lokius… well it makes it harder and harder for them to deflect these meanings onto something else. (An example is how in Sherlock BBC they deflect a lot of the meanings in to “they are just partners in crime and that is ONLY reflecting that” and “it was just a joke”)

Not only that, as time goes on, less and less cinematography etc. is needed in order for a queer couple to become canon (or at least that kinda was true…). They don’t need as much build up because it is getting (or was getting) more and more accepted. More normalized, even if people didn’t “accept” it. Media does not have to code it/build up to it as much anymore. (This however is not as true for trans rep. Also, as more anti lgbt laws get/have gotten passed, we will start to see a sort of recession in lgbt rep, specifically trans rep. Very unfortunate imo, as a queer nonbinary individual.)

Considering Loki season 2 was made in 2021 (if I am correct), and written before hand, it probably will have some queerness somewhere as it was probably before many of the anti-lgbt laws.

In the least, I am confident lokius will be queer coded or “left up for interpretation” as there still is a s3 that will be coming way later. (It would suck if they pulled that though, yet it would not be super surprising.)

[love-byers]

Hi! Not gonna lie I was a bit disappointed that you believe the birthday gate stuff... The Duffers wouldn't have admitted to have made a mistake if that were the case. And most of all, it would've come up in volume 2! Now if something happens in S5 it would just feel like they came up with it during the 3 years between S4 and S5. They can say it was planned all they want, people would call bullshit, and rightfully so. I'm sorry I can not believe how anyone can think birthday gate could be a real thing. Not to mention it doesn't even make any sense. Please bylers let's just accept the Duffers made a mistake!!

i disagree with everything you said

1. "the duffers wouldn't have admitted to have made a mistake if that were the case"

they lied.

the duffers are sneaky snakes who want us to analyze and always be looking for little details. they have literally said there are no coincidences in the show.

so yes, i completely believe that they would go out of their way to lie in order to save the surprise for s5. i mean actually think about it, if it really was just a mistake, why would they not just fix it?? they have the full power to just do a little voiceover edit and boom, problem solved. they explained exactly how they'd do it. but they didn't. 2 years have passed and they still haven't changed it when that little tweak would literally solve all their problems if it really was a mistake.

they lied. they're liars.

2. "it would've come up in vol 2"

since when does every single problem have to be solved in one season?? do you know what show you're watching??

there are hints and foreshadowing all over the seasons. vecna is foreshadowed in s1 ep1 when will's door was opened with telekinesis, and we had no idea he existed until 6 years and 3 seasons later.

in s1 they don't fully explain how will was communicating with joyce. but after s4 everything clicks into place.

they show us that will can clearly hear her and is finding a way to make the lights light up. then in ep 8 they show joyce and hopper making the christmas lights light up as they walk through the byers upside down house. jonathan sees this and asks if it's joyce, and joyce hears him.

that isn't addressed AT ALL in s2 or s3. it is fully explained and explored in s4, when nancy steve eddie and robin are stuck in the upside down. they fully show us how it works and acknowledge that it was how will communicated with joyce.

the creators knew exactly how the light upside down stuff worked the entire show. but it wasn't time for it to be explained just yet. it was meant to come up later on. it's a masterful way to write a story with longevity.

stranger things teaches you to never just write something off. everything is important. don't let it go just because it hasn't been fully explained. there will be payoff.

3. "now if it comes up in s5 it would just feel like they came up with it the 3 years between s4 and s5. people would call bullshit."

respectfully i think you're projecting a bit.

the average viewer who does not spend their time on forums is not going to think that whatsoever. the average viewer is going to think "wait what?!", go back and watch s4 ep 2, and think "holy shit it was planned all along that's so cool!"

like that's such a dumb way of thinking. you have to be a master level hater to see a well written plot twist and think "they just did that to cover their asses" like that's some next level hating

and i guarantee you once s5 comes out the duffers will be like "yeah of course we had to lie you guys were too close to figuring it out!"

david harbour has talked about how hard it was for him to flat out lie to people about hopper being dead. it's really not that crazy to think they lied

4. "it doesn't even make any sense"

....it does.

i don't know how you could think it doesn't make sense

rink o mania day was march 22nd. will's birthday. they have not changed his birthday. his official canonical birthday is still march 22nd.

but no one mentions it. even will doesn't seem to know it's his birthday.

s4 is all about memories and trauma and feeling isolated from others. we also literally learn there is a powerful monster man who can read minds and enter other people's memories, just like el can. so i don't see how it's so outlandish to think there's some memory fuckery going on.

of course we can't explain exactly why or how, because it hasn't been adressed yet. you have to wait for the pay off.

5. "just accept the duffers made a mistake"

i would accept that they made a mistake if they actually fixed the mistake LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD. they said "we are going to edit the episode and change it to say may 22nd" and then DIDNT. EVER.

and not only that, they wished him happy birthday on march 22nd 2 years in a row. noah schnapp posted a bts photo on march 22nd 2024 with the caption "Do you know what March 22nd is? It's your birthday. - Joyce Byers"

they are saying "yes it's still his birthday so get hyped for s5 where it'll be addressed" every way they can without spelling it out for you.

i really don't know what more you need

[strangerfigs]

maybe this is an unpopular opinion but you are just as valid of byler shipper if you have doubt or full on do not think they are gonna happen like i guess just shout out to all my bylers who are doubters because i truly as mike wheeler once said, don’t know what’s going to happen next, but i think it would be better if we were a team. anyway. like idk. i just am so unsure if they are gonna happen or not ?? like the subtext speaks volumes but i feel like they intentionally write it as it going either way. or many ways. ??? like even in the season 1, dustin saying that lucas is mike’s BEST friend makes me wonder if the duffers really didn’t see the potential of byler until later?? esp because they said they wrote mike as a very typical straight charqcter at first but then they met finn and changed his character. idk. ig i also just wonder about the party dynamics before will went missing because we really don’t actually know much about it. like did things change after will went missing because it’s evident and so clear that mike’s closest friend is will in every season after season 1 even when they are fighting and even when he is spending a lot of time with lucas. it’s just very very clear there is a bond there that is either outside of the party or closer than the party and it’s literally verbalized by mike himself in season 4 when he tells will that the others are great but it’s not the same without him. if it just wasn’t the same without him then he would just say that part but it’s clear since he mentions the others that he ranks will higher than them which is just funny because mike literally tells dystin that they are all his best friends and makes a point out of it so it’s just very funny but it really does make me wonder if it used to be like that but then mike sort of realized in s2 that will is his best friend whether that be from what happened or just like realization but just from mikes little monologue it’s also sort of implied that will is his BEST friend as that is the BEST decision he has ever made so. interesting. but yeah it just really makes me wonder the purpose of that scene with Dustin where he tells him that when the rest of the show past s1 clearly depicts will (and eleven) as the central points in mike’s plot lines and idk, maybe s3 was mike trying to return to his previous dynamic with will (pre- will being taken) but it’s no longer that dynamic anymore? and in doing so, mike kind of ruins their “new” dynamic a bit (not really but also kind of) but there is also no going back to their previous dynamic. so then in s4, mike is pretty sure that dynamic is ruined. I mean they never really made up in season 3. will brushes it off and they focus on the more important issues at hand. but it still happened, and while they have that scene at the end, where will tells him he isn’t going to join another party, I feel like that honestly just repairs the “party” dynamic esp because Will told Mike “you’re ruining the party” and Mike spent a majority of the first half of the season treating Will the same as Dustin and/or Lucas, categorizing them in the same “best friend” title, forcing that dynamic back into place even though, obviously, Will and Mike grew closer in s2, or at least their bond solidified, but Mike is just kind of pretending that didn’t happen? so s3 ends with will basically confirming that the party is still in tact and mike didn’t ruin it and will still wanted to be a part of it regardless of him moving, mike ruining it, him and Lucas being assholes, and mike being even a bigger asshole. but I think that the fight they had was more of a will/mike fight then it was actually about the party. it’s separate than the party dynamic and it’s more about their special bond which is why Mike runs up after him and Lucas stays in the basement, but it does result in Mike and Will having an entirely different fight of their own, which is both a stand alone fight because Mike says some fucked up shit, and Will insults his gf and says he is ruining the party. like Lucas isn’t even aware of all this!!!

(I ran out of text block). Lucas thinks that they were just a holes and they were but are apologizing for mocking him, so anyway, yeah: I just am getting at how this sort of refers again to the closer bond/additional dynamic that will and mike have which i’m not even fully convinced dustin and lucas are even aware exists? even though it so obviously does but a lot of mike and will’s most intimate moments, or moments that it’s clear they have a deeper connection, happen while they are alone. and I think Mike because he has this “you are all my best friend” mentality I think also feels guilty in s3 for having favored will or having a deeper bond with him than dustin or lucas. i think he is trying to balance it all and have it all and mike can only have one person outside of the party that he is especially close with at a time and he can barely keep that up but it’s why in s3 he feels so miserably because it’s the party, will, and el that he is trying to balance out. he therefore tries to just group will in with the party but their relationship/friendship has evolved past that so it sort of just collapses in on itself, and while the other party members are annoyed with Mike, it hits will even harder because yes, he loves him, but also because they did develop that strong bond that went deeper than the party, and now it just didn’t even exist

I think it’s safe to say that I’m totally just rambling at this point but I think it’s interesting to have s4 because it really does feel like in s3, they broke apart completely, and by the end of the season; Will was back in the party and that dynamic was healed but that wasn’t the only dynamic/bond they shared, and it really feels like in season 4, that bond is healed and restored, and mike admits to it, and WANTS it back, and admits to feeling like he lost will (due to worrying too much about el which honestly has so many meanings - worrying about her being happy, worrying about making her happy, worrying about being the perfect boyfriend so she doesn’t break up with him because he feels like he has has a mask on in the sense that he said one day she is just gonna realize he is a nerd like he has just been putting on this act and it’s so interesting and it’s so obvious too in all the season 3 scenes as well that he is just doing or saying whatever she wants to hear in so many of their scenes like that bike scene where they were just together and he is riding to the movie theater like she literally says ‘I wish you were still here right now’ and he says ‘yeah me too’ but he could have stayed like he is going to the movies and I know it’s just a small lie and like he would be a douche if he didn’t agree but it’s just such an interesting thing to include by the duffers because he isn’t going home, he could still be with her but he goes to his friends to see a movie. but I think it says a lot regarding the genuineness and sincerity of mikes words vs his actions like it is such a huge juxtaposition to create this scene idk).

anyways back to s4. s4 restores their special bond. mike is the most direct he has ever been regarding his closeness to will compared to the other members of the party. i think mike may have realized it when will left ? or at least realized he couldn’t shove will in with the rest of the party once he left, but i do feel like mike thinks he ruined it last summer with will because they barely make up as party best friends let alone best friend best friends outside of the group dynamic/bestie #1 so it sort of feels like mike just assumes he fucked that up, and he didn’t realize that Will would still want/wanted to be BEST friends with him until that roller rink scene (which is supposed to be what they are anyways because of what Mike told Dustin but I think it’s just another testament to the fact that Mike’s bond with Will is deeper and separate from the rest of the party.) I think especially too with Will not really speaking to him that whole day he didn’t really think that Will cared that much about their friendship (like to Mike, shouldn’t Will be happy that he is here? shouldn’t he be spending that time talking to him?) so I do think Mike is surprised when Will asks what about us because he didn’t realize this feeling was reciprocated because to him, really, in his little mike perspective, they had a huge fight where Will said he was ruining the party, and then when Mike tried to resolve things, Will didn’t seem interested in doing so… so (and I also think this is why Mike is so surprised that Will doesn’t plan to join another party but I do really think this was putting a bandaid on a very damaging rupture of their’s) and I think that is why he is also projecting in the sense that Mike knows that he is guilty of the rupture which caused them to drift to start with so him asking why he is always the bad guy is out of defense and guilt that this is how their friendship was now, but also a little bitterness as well because will wasn’t receptive to Mike trying to patch things up with him, and also the fact that Will was again blaming him for their friendship being the way it was when Will didn’t reach out either and how was Mike supposed to even know if Will wanted him to seeing as how things ended last summer? But also I think it’s clear that Mike tried calling more often than Will thought. Also - I think because Mike is into this idea of justice among the party and everyone being his bestie, and this is totally a hc, but he probably replicated Dustin and Lucas in regards to how often they reached out to Will and the means of how they did which wasn’t letters. Plus, Mike was pretty depressed so ! I’m sure it was hard to do anything.

All this to say, I think their friendship is lovely and beautiful and special, and while I do think that Mike has feelings for Will, I also hope (and have hope) for s5 that the st writers will honor their close bond and friendship because it is different and it is beautiful and I think that s4 really healed byler’s friendship 🙏like even when they are back with eleven, there is an obvious closeness between them that sort of proves that they are healed in that aspect which I just think is beautiful because I love their friendship so much and if the duffers aren’t going to give us Byler then I pray to god that they at least honor their beautiful and close friendship because god dammit it’s amazing. !!!!!

anyways, it is just fun to analyze their friendship because the ship is literally childhood friends to lovers which is my cup of tea, but I just feel like their friendship needs to be super strong in the 5th season and I feel at least very confident in that? which is good and nice. I will still be heart broken if byler doesn’t happen and i do have my doubts and i hope they do happen but if the duffers can at least honor their beautiful friendship then i think I’ll be okay in the end ??

but anyways. that’s some thoughts of mine

[elekinetic]

user elekinetic do you have any tips to spare for outlining fics 😭 i feel like I word vomit any of the concept that I have in my head, and dialogue ,and build off that adding paragraphs as I go and I go so slow bc of it. But ive been trying hard lately to write a list of “scenes” and bullet point the story but yeah.

do you know anything that could help me have an idea of where to go start to finish instead of starting at the random spot I’ve come up with first? I waste so much writing time because I haven’t built a backstory for characters and things like that so i don’t always know how they start the story off, only the situation they’re in. Is that something that could help? Making a list for each character or something? Would love to hear your thoughts thank you! <3

hi! first of all i’m so flattered you asked! to be clear, i am a very slow writer too lmao and i’m relatively new to prose writing, and though in very confident in my understanding of what makes a good story (W screenwriting), i am still figuring out my outlining process. but hey! let’s learn together.

sorry in advance for how long this is. i love talking.

so i basically figure everything out in the outline and write after i feel very good about it. if you have a strong foundation, everything gets a hell of a lot easier. t kind of sounds like your process might be similar to mine, so i’m just gonna explain what i'm doing for my current project.

my key document is my “bible.” i split it up into a couple different sections using page breaks (page breaks my best friend ily page breaks):

pitch/word vomit summary

scene ideas

outline

notes

ok so wtf does that mean.

1. pitch/word vomit summary — explain your concept. bc i've got a film/tv background, im starting off with my logline. (e.g. "after robin learns will is gay, they have a heart to heart in an abandoned video store about insecurity and feeling alone. they learn they're not." sometimes i'll follow that up with a note to myself like, "this fic isn't robin finding out, this is what happens after. starts with her already knowing. will pov, focus on his perception of robin changing. subtly reference toward feelings about mike, dont come out (haha) and say it") then, i write as MUCH of the concept down as i can, like i'm explaining it to a friend. (sometimes i copy and paste rants from dms directly into the document). it can be totally out of order, non-sensical, contradictory. just get as many of your ideas down as possible. you want to be able to come back to this and be like, oh i totally forgot about that. vague chapter summaries, personal notes about themes, whatever you want. i have a list of beats that you find in romantic dramas for inspiration and a paragraph abt ways i want to parallel/subvert s3 of st. just. go ham. 2. scene ideas — this is pretty self explanatory. i take some of the stuff i have in the p/s and flesh it out, or put down new ideas. this is where i'm writing out dialogue in bullet points, or what i want them to be Really Saying. (e.g. "mike: [panics bc he feels seen, tries to flip it back on (redacted) and fails] ") this is for when i can see stuff more clearly or i get out of the shower with a whole exchange in my head. gonna be out of order, a little all over the place. 3. outline — so. this is where you start piecing it together. put the bullet points in order. figure out objective of each scene and what needs to happen to accomplish that goal. figure out pacing, what needs to happen when. this step is where im looking at dialogue and thinking "why does mike say that? why does he feel that way? what needs to happen to get him to this point emotionally?" or looking at scenes and thinking "these are two scenes with people arguing back to back. lets make sure they feel different and give the characters different tactics to get what they want (byler argument where mike is avoiding will vs max argument where max is avoiding lucas. i could use this to highlight similarities and differences in the relationships, but having two scenes with the same tactics back to back might feel repetitive. maybe i move the scenes farther apart or change circumstances. maybe mike and will are having a veiled argument while theyre with a group of friends in a public space and max and lucas' argument is outside max's house.) also asking if conflicts are resolved too quickly, if the miscommunications feel too convenient, if characters disappear or are only around as plot devices. write. troubleshoot. repeat. 4. random notes — everything else that doesnt fit. for me this is literally just taylor swift lyrics (writing the fic vaguely off of a Specific Song that SHOULD BE STREAMED MORE WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE anyway) and links to posts i use as character reference to make sure im staying true to the characters. (remembering will said "i was being a total jerk to el, i deserved it," AND "you're ruining everything, and for what!"/"i wasn't moping!")

i want it to be clear im doing all of this at the same time. im jumping around and pulling new ideas and rearranging as stuff changes. i think the thing that's really hard is that i want to be able to sit down, write the outline, and then move on. but for us scatterbrained writers, you're gonna have to re-outline and readjust like. a thousand times. and that's okay. that's good! it feels tedious as hell but the story is so much better for it.

take your time. let yourself be slow. keep finding holes in your story and fill the world in as you fix them.

here are some more questions i ask myself to make the story better:

What are you trying to accomplish over the course of the story? What is it about? (for the will&robin fic, it was something about feeling seen for the first time.) When you get lost in your story or aren't sure why a scene feels stale, come back to this. is the scene furthering that goal?

What is changing internally for each of your main characters? (yes theyre dating by the end but like. what do they learn.)

Are the side characters people or props? (will pov scene of a party-wide picnic where everyone's talking but will is focused on mike's hands.... where is max's head at in the scene? you don't have to have a super long backstory and she doesn't have to be a big part of the plot, but if she's saying something, figure out why she's saying it. if will is having a heart to heart with el, understand why el is responding the way she is. the scene's goal may be to get will through a breakthrough, but el's circumstances will change in the scene too. figure out how this conversation lands with her. oh, and remember the adults are people too!)

Why is this character saying this/why are they responding this way? (this should answer your "where do i start?" question. start in that random spot and figure out A) why they are there and B) why they are reacting the way they do (see last bullet point).

side note: some of the best advice i ever got was "enter the scene late, exit early." skip the prologue. try starting from that random spot. if it feels like something's missing, figure out exactly what that something is, and go from there

Do the stakes feel high enough?

What do i need to set up to make sure this scene/beat is satisfying as possible? (are will and mike going to have a big argument? oh, so we have to show tension before.... BAM you have another scene to write and your outline is fuller)

i could go on a lot longer but. basically.

i edit while i write. i'm someone who needs a very fucking strong outline and a very fucking clear idea of the story before i can start writing it. i'm putting probably 70-80% of the leg work in at the start so i can focus on making the prose (or script, most of the time) the best it can be.

THAT BEING SAID, this is just the way i do it and i have like. a fic and a half published. im taking my sweet time bc im creatively burned out and this is for fun first and foremost. like i said. i am a Very Slow Writer.

i highly, highly recommend hitting up the ask boxes of writers like @/strangeswift, @/wiseatom, @/astrobei, or @/andiwriteordie. no guarantees on responses bc they are busy ppl with busy lives but i really do think theyre some of the best writers out here right now, and im not just saying that bc they're my friends. abby (strangeswift) and i have been each other's sounding board through a lot of projects and she's almost done with one of her first Big Fics, so its worth asking her about that.

i hope this helps! ah!!

[aemiron-main]

1:20: an analysis of back to the future and lost and temporal displacement and ST

“The temporal displacement occurred at exactly 1:20”

First of all- what is temporal displacement? Well, in Back to the Future, it’s “breaking the time barrier”/time travel. It’s also the name for what happens when certain elements (or people) from one time period were continuously misplaced into different time periods. If not corrected, a temporal displacement could have huge effects on the timeline.

Second of all, that initial line is from Back to the Future, but I actually want to talk about “Lost,” for right now. Let’s take a look at temporal displacement in Lost and its causes and why that’s relevant for ST.

Temporal Displacement in Lost and its Causes

What is Temporal Displacement in Lost?

As the screenshots says, temporal displacement is what happens when somebody’s consciousness time travels.

Nosebleeds are a symptom of temporal displacement in Lost- they’re also a.) what happens when somebody uses their powers in ST and b.) they’re a symptoms of being targeted by Vecna, who is extremely associated with time and clocks.

I’m also staring at the following screenshot and the fact that experiencing electromagnetic power from an island (much like the powerful electromagnetic fields in Hawkins caused by the gates), results in time travel.

And the idea of a “constant,” is really interesting to me regarding ST, because it’s somebody who the time traveler deeply cares about and could recognize, and if a constant isn’t found, that time traveler will die. This reminds me a lot of Vecna’s victims and the fact that Max’s fond memories of Lucas and her friends were almost like a “constant,” for her, but I’m also staring at Byler and Will yelling for Mike on Halloween and the original eightfifteengate post that talks about how something is wrong with time during that Halloween scene.

I wonder if Mike is Will’s equivalent of a constant, and that also makes me stare at Creelarke, and what I’m going to talk about later with how Scott seems to be in the wrong timeline. It’s worth keeping in mind that time travel in ST is going to be slightly different from Lost because ST seems to be more pushing towards “travelling between two separate timelines,” rather than “forwards and backwards in the same timeline,” but there also seems to some overlap there. And so, in theory, the “constant,” in ST would have to be somebody who exists in both timelines. Which is interesting considering the fact that Lucas is reading The Talisman at the end of S4, which involves the idea of “twinners,”/different timeline versions of the same person.

I’m also staring at the references to Planck’s constant in s3, and the fact that Suzie (a person) is required to learn the constant/associated with the constant.

And I'm also staring at that as @heroesbyler pointed out to me, Murray got Planck's constant wrong.

And I'm also staring at Dustin and Suzie talking about "changing frequencies," during their conversation about Planck's constant. It's giving me some time travel/alternate timeline vibes, especially considering how often radios are tied to things like the Creel murders and also the walkie-talkie radios that the Party uses, which El uses to communicate with Will and the tie between El's powers vs electromagnetics vs the radios.

I'm also staring at Eloise the lab rat from Lost who died due to temporal displacement, versus the exploding rats from S3, and also at 001 talking about how El is like a lab rat to Brenner.

What Causes Temporal Displacement in Lost?

And now that we’ve got a better idea of the definition of temporal displacement in Lost, let’s look at the three known causes of temporal displacement in Lost.

1.) Intense or prolonged exposure to radiation or electromagnetism

Not only have the people of Hawkins been exposed to high levels of electromagnetism since S1 as a result of the mothergate and the Russians’ gate/machinery to open the gate in s3, but also, staring at @henrysglock and radiationgate.

And speaking of “Faraday,” that name immediately made me think of Faraday cages, which are used to block out electromagnetic fields. And I stumbled upon this Reddit post that talks about how El’s isolation room in the lab seems to be very similar to a Faraday cage.

And there’s so much cage imagery in ST. Take a look at the caged rat with Jonathan in S3, a shot that, hilariously enough, happens right after Joyce is going to talk to Scott about electromagnetic fields, with a book about electromagnetics in her arms.

2.) Proximity to the island in Lost

Staring at this in regards to Hawkins being special in S3 in terms of opening a gate, and location being the “second key/second piece,” when it comes to opening a gate, almost like time is already disturbed in Hawkins.

3.) Time travel.

This one is pretty self-explanatory, but also, the fact that headaches AND nosebleeds are both symptoms of temporal displacement in Lost AND symptoms of being targeted by Vecna in ST, is interesting.

Why Temporal Displacement in Lost is Relevant to St

I’ve been talking a lot lately about various timelines, specifically the Edward timeline vs the Henry timeline (and I’m still working on the big timeline analysis), and a temporal displacement would explain how some characters seem to have ended up in the wrong timeline. It would explain all of the weirdness like how there's a newspaper in S1 that conflates Joyce and Terry and claims that Will was found by Joyce, being experimented on in the lab, whereas the S2 newspaper claims that Will was found in a cabin by Hopper. The S1 article is particularly interesting because one of the conditions for being allowed to rescue Will from the lab is that Joyce had to act like the lab had nothing to do with Will's vanishing- which makes it very odd that she would supposedly give a newspaper interview specifically implicating the lab but also not mentioning the UD at all. Both newspapers are also presented as being the same article with the same title, picture, and author, which makes all of this even weirder. It's worth noting that in Back to the Future, newspapers are a key thing used to differentiate between timelines.

Also, I’ve suspected for awhile that Scott Clarke is in the wrong timeline- for example, this post about him being on the ‘other side of the wormhole’ relative to Henry/in a different timeline (and here’s another post about the Creelarke tunnel scene parallels), and also the fact that he’s seen with Connie Frazier, who seems to be “Mother Alice,” from the Edward timeline (posts here and here), meaning that Scott is in the Edward timeline.

Temporal displacement would also tie into what I said in this post about Karen Wheeler being the Virginia Creel from Edward’s timeline (in Edward’s timeline, his sister is named Virginia and his mother is named Alice, hence what I said earlier about “Mother Alice.”)

It's also worth noting that David Harbour compared ST4 to Lost.

Everything I’ve said here about Lost and temporal displacement would explain how Scott (and other people in Hawkins/other ST characters) ended up temporally displaced. Especially when we look at this next section.

Temporal Displacement and Star Trek

So! What is temporal displacement in Star Trek and how does it work?

Something (including people) from a certain time period being misplaced into another time period… sounds a lot like what I was talking about with Scott and Karen and other people in Hawkins being in the wrong timeline. Interestingly enough, Star Trek also has a Department of Temporal Investigations, a government agency intended to ensure that any time travel was done in a way that it didn't contaminate the timeline. I'm staring directly at Hawkins Lab and Henry and all of the time imagery and all of the times that HNL has messed with things like Will's vanishing and the Creel murders and the fact that in Edward's timeline, the Creel murders happened on the same day as Will's birthday, just in different years.

Conclusion

Long story short- timeline weirdness is afoot, and I’m pretty sure that we’ve been seeing two timelines all along, right since S1. However, before this post ends, there’s a few things I want to talk about regarding that S3 movie theatre scene with the temporal displacement reference.

This bit of dialogue happens right after the temporal displacement line:

“A week later.”

Anything familiar about that to you? What about now?

And going back to Dustin’s dialogue- a setup. Almost like Henry being setup for the murders…. Like what I've been talking about with how I'm certain that Hawkins Lab was messing with the Creels before the murders even happened, and like the fact that the Weekly Watcher has photos of supposed bloodshed at the Creel house, and yet, none of that blood is present when the Hawkins gang actually goes into the house, nor is it present in Victor or Henry's retellings of the murders.

And there’s also the fact that Will went missing for a week, and Max specifically talks about the idea of Will being presumed dead after a week:

There's something here, I can feel it in my bones.

[will80sbyers]

I dont want to make Bylers sad because I am a multishipper but the play compares Henry and Patty to El and Mike. Ofc there are certain differences in personalities but Patty is portrayed as a comic book nerd and at one point she calls Henry a superhero and helps him to battle his devils and use his powers. She says she loves him and that gives Henry the power to control his powers. There are other stuff but yeah they are paralleled to Mike and El imho

See but those parallels are valid for byler too IMO because Henry is constantly paralleled to Will and Mike literally helps Will break the hold of the Mindflayer in season 2

+

Will spends time in a different dimension like Henry does and him getting that upside down vine inside him could be revealed to be what happened to Henry when he got lost into dimension X and "came back as a different person"...

Because the vines modify the DNA of the people like the meat monster in S3 did so that could explain why Henry came back completely changed... But instead of completing the process Will got disconnected by Hopper and Joyce before his DNA could be completely modified and he just got some powers without changing his whole self like it happened to Henry?

Sorry I started rambling because this came to mind lmaooo

but anyway

other mlv break up hints from the play are that Karen and Ted apparently kiss a lot in the play like Mike and El and Steve and Nancy and Bob and Joyce did on screen and usually the Duffers/st writers use that to signal long term incompatibility

All of this literally makes the show stay in bi Mike territory at the moment because they decided to parallel Will and Henry that closely in the show

I don't know how this will go because I don't have much faith in the Duffers in general now but we'll see, I'm gonna still be here and see if byler happens or not and speculate