#Lorra Royce

[coldraindropsss]

Lorra Royce, Berena Stark, Alysanne Stark

[murmel-malt]

Did you ever work on a character and just stopped and stared in horror when their actions revealed themselves to you?

You're fleshing out their quirks etc and then are just hit with the stupid shit they will do? You did not plan for this, this character just suddenly has a mind of its own.

[racefortheironthrone]

There aren't a lot of non-Northerner Ladies of Winterfell let alone in recent history. I was just wondering if Catelyn Stark as quasi public figure if well liked by the highborn and lowborn of The North?

TBF, there's a bunch of Starks whose partners we don't know, like Torrhen's unnamed sons and Brandon the Boisterous or Roderick Stark or Brandon the Boastful or Lord Walton or Alaric's sons or Lord Ellard or Bennard's sons or...the list keeps going.

But within the last 150 years there has been Alysanne Blackwood, Lorra Royce, Melantha Blackwood, and Catelyn Tully. (Also there have been a number of Stark women who married Southron knights and lords.) Certainly Catelyn would have been unusual in the history of the North, but not without precedent.

[strangedreamings]

I love characters that are barely canon -- they're just a name on a page and we know little more about them than that.

One of the best examples was in The Fandom That Shall Not Be Named -- until the 6th book, we didn't know if this character was a boy or a girl. The fandom was divided, as were the fics about them. "boy-Character" and "girl-Character" were common tags. Then the 6th book came out and we learned the character's a boy.

Westeros is full of this kind of character -- so many of them currently exist just as a name on a family tree, etc and will continue to do so until GRRM uses them in a book/novella.

The only thing we know about Ser Harrold Westerling from the books is that he died in 112 AC and Ser Criston Cole became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in his place. HOTD fleshed out Harrold a lot more (and gave him a new lease on life since he should be long dead by now).

All we know about my fave Alysanne Stark is that she is the daughter of Beron Stark and his wife Lorra Royce and the sister of Donnor, Willam, Artos, Berena, Errold, and Rodrik. We can guess how old she is by her father being active during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion era, and we can guess what she looks like if she has the typical Stark coloring, but that's it.

My point is that for fic writers, these characters have the legitimacy of fully-canon characters but most of their details are a blank slate for the fic writer to fill out.

In other words,

[asoiaf-forum-rpg]

LA MAISON STARK

membres actuels de la Maison du loup :

lignée suzeraine (principale) (= le seigneur, son épouse, leurs enfants & petit.e.s enfants (fc. premières nations, métisses & blanc.he.s)

• (libre. homme, entre 62 et 60 ans) Beron Stark, seigneur de la maison, gouverneur du Nord et sire de Winterfell. • (libre. femme, entre 62 et 60 ans) Lorra Royce, son épouse et dame de Winterfell.

première lignée.

• (libre. homme, entre 45 et 44 ans) Donnor Stark, leur fils et héritier de Winterfell.

deuxième lignée.

• (libre. homme, entre 43 et 41 ans) William Stark, leur fils. • (PNJ. femme, 16 ans) Lyanne Glover, sa première épouse, décédée. • (libre. femme, entre 44 et 42 ans) Melantha Nerbosc, sa deuxième épouse. • (libre. homme, entre 27 et 26 ans) Brandon Stark, leur fils (né du premier mariage) • (libre. homme, entre 25 ans) Edwyle Stark, leur fils. • (libre. femme, 24 ans) Lyarra Stark, leur fille.

troisième lignée.

• (libre. homme, entre 40 et 39 ans) Artos Stark, leur fils. • (libre. femme, entre 41 et 39 ans) Lysara Karstark, son épouse. • (libre. homme, entre 24 et 23 ans) Bran Stark, leur fils, jumeau de Benjen. • (RÉSERVÉ. homme, entre 24 et 23 ans) Benjen Stark, leur fils, jumeau de Bran.

quatrième lignée.

• (libre. femme, entre 38 et 37 ans) Berena Stark, leur fille.

cinquième lignée.

• (libre. femme, entre 36 et 34 ans) Alysanne Stark, leur fille.

cinquième lignée.

• (libre. homme, entre 33 et 31 ans) Errold Stark, leur fils.

sixième lignée.

• (libre. homme, entre 30 et 27 ans) Rodrik Stark dit le Loup errant, leur fils et mercenaire.

lignée bâtarde(= le frère de lord Beron)

• (libre. homme, entre 52 et 47 ans) Lonnel Snow dit Lonny. Bâtard de lord Brandon Stark et Wylla Saline. Maître d'armes de Winterfell.

[dragonmartellstark]

Lady’s of Winterfell. Direct and indirect female ancestors of Eddard Stark and his children.

[beyondmistland]

any head cannons about the she wolves of winterfell?

I see Lorra Royce as a proto-Catelyn. Coming from a southern, Seven-following family, she may have felt very much like an unwelcome interloper. Any such feelings would be exacerbated by her status as the only post-conquest wife who is neither a Blackwood nor a northwoman. As a result, I imagine her as being very close to her good-sister, Myriame Manderly, who may well have understood Lorra best given their shared background.

Thanks for the question, anon

[goodqueenaly]

Who do you think some of the she-wolves of Winterfell could be? I think strong contenders are one of Rickon Stark's daughters, Serena and Sansa, Myriame Manderly, Lorra Royce, maybe Melantha Blackwood if she's in the North yet. What do you think?

Per GRRM (at least back in 2006), the story of “The She-Wolves of Winterfell” will feature “five Lady Starks running Winterfell ... with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn”. That Lord Stark would be Beron, which means that the “current Lady Stark” would be Lorra Royce (though whether she was from the senior line Royces of Runestone, or the junior line Royces from whom Nestor descends, we don’t yet know). Beron’s predecessor as Lord Stark was his brother, Rodwell, whose wife was Myriame Manderly, so presumably she will be the first of those Stark widows. Rodwell was the eldest son of Lord Brandon Stark, so I expect his and Beron’s mother, Alys Karstark, will be alive as well. (Hopefully she’s as brave and awesome as her name twin in the main novels.)

What makes this calculation somewhat tricky from here is that, according to the Stark family tree from TWOIAF, Barthogan (Brandon’s immediate predecessor as Lord of Winterfell) was unmarried. Barthogan’s own predecessor, Jonnel, was married, twice in fact - but unless he took a rather extraordinary step in putting aside one of his wives to marry the other, presumably we’ll only meet one of them. My money would be on Sansa Stark, because of the rich succession questions her presence could raise; as one of the daughters of Rickon Stark, Sansa had arguably a far better right to Winterfell than any of Cregan’s younger sons or their descendants. It’s remotely possible that either Jeyne Manderly (the wife of Rickon Stark) or Lynara Stark (the wife of Cregan) would have still been alive at this time, although my feeling would be no. If Jeyne was of an age with Rickon she would have been in her early 80s by the time of this story, and while that’s not the oldest age any (non-magical) person has reached in Westeros, it is certainly old by Westerosi standards; as for Lynara, while I would guess she was younger than Cregan, I can’t imagine that even at the youngest she was too much younger than her own stepson Rickon, and so probably the same calculus as with Jeyne would apply.

That’s only three Stark widows, of course, though I wouldn’t say that that would necessarily be all the fierce Stark ladies hanging around Winterfell (and let’s remember, not only has this been a work in progress long before the formalization of the Stark family tree in TWOIAF, but GRRM can’t math). Serena Stark was not a widow of a Stark lord (as Edric Stark, her uncle-husband, died before he could succeed), but she was still the senior heir of Rickon as well as the widow of a Stark. Serena also had four children by Edric, and while I’m suspicious their twin boys died young (they never ruled Winterfell either, and the family tree didn’t show them marrying or having children), their daughters lived to marry and have children of their own; indeed, I could see where Serena and her daughters would have emphasized that they were “Starks”, the rightful heirs to Winterfell. Cregan’s daughters by Alysanne Blackwood might have been alive, albeit probably in their 70s at least (although we don’t know if they ever married; no spouses were listed on the lineage). Cregan’s youngest daughter, Lyanna (how could GRRM ignore the thematic possibilities with that namesake?) and his granddaughter, Arsa (Beron’s sister), may also have been around Winterfell (though their marital fates are unknown as well).

It’s also worth pointing out that there may be one other lady around Winterfell around the time of “The She-Wolves of Winterfell”: Wylla Fenn, the mother of Brandon Stark’s bastard, Lonnel Snow. Although Lonnel, as an unlegitimated bastard, would not legally have any rights to Winterfell, as a son of a Stark lord (and his son by a northern noblewoman) in a period of uncertain succession, Lonnel might well have come forward (or been put forward by his mother) to grasp at power in the North. (And let’s be real, could it really be coincidental that GRRM named the mother of a bastard son of a Stark lord “Wylla”?)

[she-wolf-of-highgarden]

I’m sorry but can we just talk about how some of the Stark children are basically following their ancestors?

Jon - Manning the Wall that Brandon the Builder built,         - was killed trying to save his sister Arya, Brandon Stark was killed trying to           save Lyanna Stark

Sansa - In the Vale with the House Royce, Beron Stark wed Lorra Royce 

Arya - The Mountain Clans are planning a revolt in her name, Rodrick Stark             wed Arya Flint

Bran - Beyond the Wall from where the First Men are from, the Starks come            from the First Men 

[asongofsilks]

ASOIAF FANCASTING --> EVERY NAMED FEMALE CHARACTER ABOVE THE AGE OF FIVE, PART V

Alysanne Stark (b. approx. 200 AC): Younger daughter of Lord Beron Stark of Winterfell and his lady wife, Lorra Royce. Beron was a grandson of Lord Cregan Stark through his father Brandon, Cregan's youngest child. Fancast: Siena Agudong.

Alysanne Targaryen (36-100 AC): Daughter of King Aenys I and wife and queen to her brother Jaehaerys I. She was a dragonrider and used her influence to pass several new laws, including the abolition of the First Night as well as the construction of the system which served the inhabitants of King's Landing clean water. She bore 13 children but only her son Vaegon and daughter Saera (who was estranged from the family) outlived her. Fancast: Jodie Comer.

Alysanne Waters (b. 155 AC): Bastard daughter of King Aegon IV Targaryen and his mistress Megette (known as Merry Meg). She was born before Aegon became king, and his father, the then-Prince Viserys, arranged for her and her three younger sisters to be trained as septas. Fancast: Audrey Tautou.

Alyse Ladybright (main series era): The lord treasurer of Sunspear, seat of the Martells in Dorne. Fancast: Gabriela Duarte.

Alyssa Arryn (era of Andal conquest): Legendary member of House Arryn who did not shed a tear when her husband, brothers and children were all murdered. The gods decreed that she would know no peace until her tears watered the Vale. The waterfall named for her, Alyssa's Tears, does not reach the Vale below the Giant's Lance. Fancast: Amy Lee.

Alyssa Blackwood (c. 245-275 AC): Fourth wife of Lord Walder Frey of the Twins and mother of five of his children. Fancast: Adrienne Wilkinson.

Alyssa Royce (b. approx. 120 AC): A lady of House Royce of Runestone, she was presented to King Aegon III at the Maiden's Day Ball which was held in order for him to choose a new wife. Fancast: Mary-Charles Jones.

Alyssa Targaryen (60-84 AC): Second daughter of King Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne. She gave birth to three sons by her brother-husband Baelon, but only two survived. Her eldest son became king as Viserys I, and his brother Daemon briefly held the position of Prince-Consort whilst his wife Rhaenyra sat the Iron Throne. Fancast: Kristy Dawn Dinsmore.

Alyssa Velaryon (7-54 AC): Daughter of Aethan Velaryon, who was master of ships for Aegon the Conqueror, and wife and queen to Aegon's son Aenys I. Her third and youngest son, Jaehaerys, became king after the death of Maegor the Cruel. Fancast: Viva Bianca.

Alyx Frey (b. 282 AC): Granddaughter of Lord Walder Frey of the Crossing. She is one of the Frey maidens whom King Robb might have married, according to the agreement he made with Lord Walder. Fancast: Roxanne McKee.

Previous

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

A speculative family tree of Stark-Vale relationships

So @mrsjadecurtiss/@amuelia, while working on her great new Vale artwork, asked me if it were possible that House Royce had some Stark blood. (Based on recollections of Stark-Royce marriages, Bronze Yohn's visit to Winterfell, and also apparently there's a theory the Others attacked Waymar Royce because he had "the Stark look".)

I explained that while we know the Starks are descendants of Lorra Royce, it doesn't go the other way, at least not for certain. Per Catelyn (and per the TWOIAF Stark family tree), there was a Stark daughter, Jocelyn, who married a Royce (of the junior branch of House Royce)… but they only had daughters. Since one of those daughters married a Waynwood, and per Sansa's TWOW preview chapter “all the Waynwood men are horse-faced”, it's a near-certainty that they at least have Stark blood. But as for the Royces themselves, probably not, unless a child of one of Jocelyn's daughters married back into the Royce family. Which is feasible, and we shouldn't rule it out entirely– but if Waymar had any sort of look similar to the Starks, most likely it's a generic First Men appearance. (As the Royces are descendants of First Men, albeit with some adoption of the Faith, as they have knights.)

But that got me wondering, how exactly is Sansa related to the Waynwood boys she meets in TWOW? And if there was a marriage back into House Royce, could it be Yohn Royce's mother? (Or Nestor's?) And we've met other people from the families Jocelyn's daughters married into, how could they be related, if at all? So, I worked up a bit of a speculative family tree, to figure the generations:

(click to embiggen)

Notes:

We don't yet know anything about the Corbray and Templeton that Jocelyn's daughters married. They might have been younger sons, they might too have only had daughters, or no children at all. In other words, there's no guarantee whatsoever that Lyn Corbray or Symond Templeton are Stark descendants – and if there are any Corbrays or Templetons that are, they could be cousins of those named characters. We'll probably find out in Sansa's TWOW storyline, as the subplot of Jocelyn's descendants seems to be getting re-activated there.

Lady Anya Waynwood is an older woman, more of a grandmother-age than Ned's generation, granted. However, since women tend to marry younger, and Jocelyn could also have been older than her brother Edwyle, that could explain a bit of the generational skew there. And note Anya's youngest son, Wallace, is younger than her grandson Roland, and close to Robb's age, so the skew factors back out again.

We don't know Anya's family tree in detail yet– she might have had several husbands, one of those husbands could have been a Waynwood cousin and the actual descendant of Jocelyn Stark. (Especially considering the “all the Waynwood men are horse-faced” factor.) But as both Roland and Wallace are long-faced and brown haired, this is the tree I've gone with for now. Again, we'll probably get more details in TWOW.

This tree does not include Carolei Waynwood (widow of Geremy Frey), as I don't know if she's Anya's daughter or niece or cousin or what. Otherwise I'd've definitely included her and her children Sandor Frey (12-year-old squire to Donnel Waynwood) and Cynthea (Anya's ward), as I strongly suspect they'll interact with Sansa at some point.

Harry Hardyng (Anya's cousin and ward) isn't on this tree either, but for a good reason, as his grandfather Elys Waynwood couldn't be one of Jocelyn's descendants, the generations don't work out at all. (Unless GRRM is incredibly bad at math, and though he is pretty bad, he's not that bad, lol.) Alas, Harry will have to settle for just being the Arryn heir, not a Stark one too.

So, to answer my questions: The newly knighted Ser Wallace Waynwood (around age 16-17) is Sansa's third cousin, and his nephew Ser Roland Waynwood (around age 25) is her third cousin once removed. (Probably.) Roland would probably be the alternate Stark heir Catelyn was reaching for – shame, as he's kind of an asshole – though tbf his father Morton would have rights before him. (And Anya too, if it's her and not her husband who was Jocelyn's descendant.) Also, with how the generations work out, if there is any Stark blood in the Royces, it would probably be through Yohn's or Nestor's wives, rather than their mothers. (Making Yohn's children and Myranda the potential Stark descendants in question.) Maybe if this is actually a thing, these wives might even get names. Imagine.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Victoria had nine children within seventeen years or so and was healthy...

If you want to draw historical parallels regarding childbirth in ASOIAF, there are many examples! While on average medieval women could expect to be pregnant 4-8 times, birth rates for noblewomen were probably higher due to access to better care and the use of wet nurses (breastfeeding was believed to act as a contraceptive, though this isn’t conclusively proven.) Too many children, especially sons, could help cause a succession crisis some generations after, but some healthy queens who had 9 or more children include:

Matilda of Flanders (1031-1083), wife of William the Conqueror, had 10 children in 15 years, all of whom survived infancy.

Eleanor of Castile (1241-1290), wife of Edward I of England, had 15 children in 20 years (9 survived infancy). About the same rate as some calculate Rohanne’s child bearing. Although she died 6 years after her youngest child was born, she was still healthy enough to accompany her husband on Crusade. Her youngest daughter Elizabeth had 12 children in 14 years.

Philippa of Hainault (c. 1313-1369) wife of Edward III of England, had 12 children in 18 years (her youngest son Thomas came along 7 years later for 13 children in 25 years. 9 of those children survived infancy). She survived 14 years past her last birth and died age 56.

Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1493) wife of Edward IV of England, had 10 children with Edward in 14 years (she’d had two sons from a previous marriage, with the younger son 9 years older than her oldest child with Edward. All but 2 of these children survived infancy). She played a key role in securing the succession of her son-in-law, Henry VII, after the disappearance of her sons. Her daughter-in-law Cecily Bonville had 14 children in about 20 years.

Catherine de’ Medici, wife of Henry II of France (1519-1589), had 9 children in 12 years (7 of whom survived infancy), the exact number of children in the same span as Rohanne was Presumed to have had (I disagree because Calla is called her eldest daughter, meaning she had more than one sister. Since I think that last daughter was posthumous, say 10 in 13.). She was constantly occupied as regent for her sons and the religious wars. She outlived all of her children save one son (died 7 months later) and her daughter Margaret who inherited her good health.

Maria Teresa (1717-1780), Holy Roman Empress, had 16 children in 19 years (13 who survived infancy). She conducted 2 wars during her childbearing years and died age 63. I‘d compared her to Rohanne in a previous headcanon ask.

There are other noblewomen off the top of my head who also had many children in less than 20 years (Isabella of Angouleme, Bonne of Luxembourg, Eleanor of Aquitaine), but hopefully you get the idea. The point is that many births weren‘t uncommon for upper class women in real life (it‘s less so in GRRM’s world because he doesn’t want to keep track of them all, but even he has Lorra Royce mother of 7 and Alysanne Targaryen mother of 13, in addition to Rohanne). Of course, I’d like it if GRRM had aged up Daemon and Rohanne in order to space out their children’s births, but by his own admission he’s terrible with numbers and ages; considering how he’s characterized, I doubt he meant for Rohanne and Daemon to have anything other than a marriage that succeeded despite initial circumstances. Nor did having many children prevent the noblewoman from playing an active social or political role; as stated, these queens could be regents, Crusaders, commanders, and power brokers. In this context, it seems that Queen Rohanne was simply a healthy woman who had many children during a happy but tragically short marriage, and this didn’t prevent her from playing a role in the Blackfyre cause.

[caithyra]

Mean (Old) Girl

Sometimes I wonder if I read these books wrong (I know that they sort of blended into one, grey mass and somehow mixed with bits and pieces of Dragon Age, Witcher, David Eddings and a bunch of other inside my head because I was reading them too fast while playing games and reading other fantasy books with similarities, on top of historical fiction as well), but I do remember when I began disliking Olenna Tyrell and checked the internet to see if anyone else caught it. I saw no one discussing the topic in question so of course I make a post about it, enjoy...

Anyway, first, here have a quote from a prepubescent, resentful, little sister thinking the worst about her older sister and would have rejoiced if there was one part of her that wasn’t "perfect”:

Sansa had a grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment.

Then here have the quote from the grandmother of a “romantic” rival who wants her to betray her abusers, risking death, for the grandmother’s family’s benefits:

“[...] No, don’t blush, with your hair it makes you look like a pomegranate. [...]”

It is the complete opposite of what we know about Sansa’s beauty, and comes on the tail of Olenna dispensing unfortunate truths/advice, thus setting her up as an authority in Sansa’s mind.

Here’s the thing, that sort of remark is one of those that can make a girl very self-conscious when it comes to expressing her emotions. Bad self-confidence is unattractive and if a girl is taciturn, she is at best, boring, but Sansa is too pretty to be boring, and her reserve would instead be taken as her being ungracious and a frigid b*tch. Her manners would, in other words, make her unattractive, whereas confidently displaying emotions is very attractive.

Like, imagine this instead:

“No, don’t smile, with your crooked teeth it makes you look like a failed pugilist.”

We all know that it is extremely rude to tell people to smile and to not smile, and it part it is because it ruins people’s confidence in social interactions. It is also a favorite tactic of the more sophisticated mean girls in middle and sometimes high school to give backhanded “advice” to give the appearance of being greater people than they are when they are just being petty a-holes.

Here’s the thing, though: Sansa is Margaery’s very real, very dangerous, rival for being Joffrey’s queen.

In that first meeting the Tyrells bring up their great complex before Olenna’s put-down of Sansa: They’re jumped up stewards with no more right to rule the Reach than several of their bannermen.

Sansa, on the other hand, is the most highly bred, eligible lady in several generations and very close to inheriting both the North (with all its timber and fish and deer) and the Riverlands (Westeros’ secondary bread basket after the Reach). There isn’t even a drop of lowborn blood in her for hundreds of generations (if ever, unless magical beings like Wargs and Children of the Forest from the mythical ages counts).

She is also, we are told, the most beautiful, eligible noble lady of her generation, evident even when baby-fat face and an undeveloped body should disguise it.

Joffrey might not want to let that go, might back out of marrying Margaery for an attractive Sansa.

Even if he wants to marry Margaery, he might want to keep Sansa on the side. The problem is, of course, that Sansa is the ward of Joffrey and his Lannister mother and of too high status, breeding and power (once she inherits) for that to be acceptable optics to the world, and thus, unacceptable to Tywin Lannister.

If they would do that to Sansa, what would the Lannisters do to their other wards, such as young lords and heirs sent to squire and foster for them? (Well, we know that Cersei molests and grooms them if they’re close enough related to her, like she did with Lancel and Tyrek, but Sansa isn’t family so her treatment reflects, in a way, how everyone else will be treated.)

If Joffrey beds Sansa even once before his marriage is consummated to Margaery, Sansa will be queen to save the Lannisters’ reputation and pride (and future influence of other houses, which is what the fostering system promotes), the two things Tywin values the most.

So Olenna tries to essentially neg a 12-year-old girl to be less attractive. After all, they don’t know yet if Sansa still wants Joff (Sansa tells them in the next couple of pages what Joff has done), and if he wants her.

And because they’re questioning Sansa so insistently about Joff, we know that they have already confirmed with witnesses (not that there was a lack of them) how she’s been mistreated. Yet Olenna decides to attempt to destroy her confidence anyway.

That whole confession was actually a trap for Sansa as well.

It was to make her a co-conspirator with the Tyrells.

Because Tywin will ensure that the North and Riverlands’ liege is safely in Lannister custody, and preferably loyal, Sansa is all but guaranteed to inherit in the absence of her siblings from captivity. Tywin will kill all other Starks and Tullys and that will be that (and when the Freys return to the fold, it is his sister’s husband and children who will inherit the Riverlands).

If Sansa is an invested co-conspirator with the Tyrells, she will be loyal to them over Joffrey.

They also take pains to present themselves as a matriarchy under the Queen of Thorns (but which lord spent Robert’s Rebellion dining and partying while his opponent starved? Mace Tyrell, of course! It’s transparently an act, and notice how they always manages to worm their way out of sticky situations and into their winning opponents’ good graces? You can’t do that with an incompetent liege lord since Olenna’s gender and status as a widow would bar her from being there most of the time, so Mace would have to act on his feet) while claiming that their men are their obedient puppets.

This is because they already know of the abuse, that they retraumatize Sansa with by pressuring her to recount them. In a matriarchy like the Reach, a lowly boy like Joffrey could never! Lowly boys like the Kingsguard could never! Sansa would be safe there...

And House Tyrell would inherit the Riverlands and North through her (and perhaps even the Vale, depending on what Lorra Royce and the Arryns’ complete inability to have many kids means, especially with the Robin-Lysa-Catelyn connection).

House Tyrell would then essentially control something like 70-80% of Westeros’ food and firewood production while having a Tyrell Queen on the Iron Throne. On top of their heirs being descended from the oldest ruling houses on the continent.

In time for a 10-year-winter (of course, this was before it was clearly too late to bring in a last harvest from the Riverlands, and before the North was divided).

(Oh, and if King Robb against all odds win, presenting themselves as the saviors of Sansa and family by marriage... Well, remember how Mace remained a Lord Paramount after Robert’s Rebellion? How they returned to the Iron Throne after Renly? The Tyrells hedge their bets. Heh. I made a pun! ^_^)

Yeah, Olenna’s little barbs seem a lot less amusing, doesn’t they?

As does her desire to tear down an abused, little girl for her own benefits. And I haven’t even mentioned the Purple Wedding. Or everything else...

♪Little Melara Hetherspoon, who was such a fine friend fell down the well, and then there was fine husband Luthor Tyrell, down the cliff as well. If only they had known better, than to love those above, those their betters~♫

[strangedreamings]

Just dropping by to say how much I like your "Heart of the Hand" fic. It's such an interesting take and quite creative, can I ask, where did it come to you the idea of Brynden/Alysanne?

Thank you so much!!!

I heard about Brynden and I find him absolutely fascinating but I can't stand his lover Shiera Seastar. From what I've read about her, she played with Brynden's heart without giving him her own.

Then I found out she died sometime before 212 AC, the year of the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Brynden's only 36 or 37 during that rebellion, definitely young enough to find love again.

Brynden needs a good woman who can support him but who can also stand up to him and tell him he's wrong when necessary.

So ... the next part can be blamed on me having a copy of The World of Ice & Fire. It's full of family trees of several Houses. I wanted a girl from a House I was familiar with, so naturally I went with House Stark. (I've been playing with the idea of Brynden/Alysanne for a couple of years now. I only last week found out the next Dunk & Egg story is going to be about the women of House Stark. Total coincidence.) Anyway, I looked at the House Stark family tree and went up the tree to what I assumed was the right generation -- Beron Stark and Lorra Stark nee Royce and their seven kids. Two of those kids are daughters -- Berena and Alysanne. The family tree doesn't list husbands or offspring for either of them, so they're both Free Real Estate. :)

I'm such a name geek and frankly, the only reason I didn't pick Berena is because I prefer Alysanne's name.

According to Westeros.org, I did pick the right generation -- Beron Stark was fighting the ironmen while the Second Blackfyre Rebellion was going on. The site lists Alysanne's birth year as 188-225 AC. (Yes, the fact that it's a range instead of a single year is maddening.) Since it's canon that Brynden was born in 175 AC, I went with Alysanne being born in 188 AC, so in 212 AC, she's 24 to his 37. Thirteen years isn't a huge gap, especially since they're both adults.

I assume Alysanne has brown hair, a long face, and grey eyes like most Starks. Everything else about her I made up.

Brynden is still going to be the Last Greenseer eventually, but with Alysanne in his life, he's definitely going to get to his destiny by a different path.

The Heart of the Hand is my second turn at writing these two -- I also have an unfinished modern au series where Brynden is the right hand man of the PM.

[templarhalo]

Templarhalo rambles about the House Stark family tree

@empressofmankind @goodqueenaly @xenowlsome @effdragonkiller @aegor-bamfsteel @turtle-paced 

Cregan Stark’s Grandmother and Rickard’s mothers were both of House Locke  We know the Lockes once ruled the Wolf’s Den for a time, and their location  would have put them in striking distance of the Three Sisters and the Vale.  For a House we know so little about having two Locke’s marry into House Stark and have the children be the next Lords of Winterfell is quite interesting.

I wonder which house the daughters of Black Aly and Cregan married into?  Also I wonder if House Bracken was one of them to help reconcile the Black and Greens

Did Eddard name Sansa after the daughter of Cregan’s son Rickon?   This Sansa married her Uncle Jonell One Eye Stark.  GRRM says there were no ruling Ladies of Winterfell or Queens in the North in their own right(Which I think is complete and utter bullshit given how long  House Starks been around. )  Did Sasna hate Cregan for arranging this marriage? Or was she in love with her Uncle?  Given how bypassing the Andal-Firstmen rule of succession screwed over House Targ  and lead to two bloody civil wars. one of which Cregan had fought in, I wonder why he arranged for Jonnel to succeed Rickon  rather than let Sansa rule in her own right.

Sansa’s sister Serena married a Jon Umber but had no children,  but one of her daughters with Jonnel’s brother Edric  married an Umber and had issue.   There’s no mention of Jon Umber being Lord of Last Hearth, but if Osric Umber, who wed Serena’s daughter Aranna was, that would be interesting. Especially if Serena’s marriage to Jon was to make a half-Stark the next Lord of Last Hearth.   In addition Arrana’s sister Aregelle married a Robywn Cerwyn.  If he was the next Lord of Cerwyn that would mean There would be two Half Starks ruling two seats in the North, one on Winterfell’s doorstep and one near the Wall. 

I wonder how Barthogen Stark got the name Blacksword? And why the Skagosi rebelled?   Also I wonder how his older brother Edric felt about being passed over for Lord of Winterfell, despite being married to  a Stark in her own right.and having his own kids.

Brandon Stark has a bastard son with Wylla Fenn, a Crannogwoman.  I’m curious as to he circumstanced behind his conception.  Did Brandon ina situation with her like Brandon Stark and Bethany Ryswel?  Were Wylla and Brandon’s marriages both loveless and they took solace in each other?  Was Lonnel raised at Winterfell like Jon Snow was?  

Brandon’s son Rodwell married Myrrine Manderly but died without issue, What is it with Lords of Winterfell dying without issue? 

Rodwell’s brother and successor  Beron married Lady Lorra Royce (Main branch not the Gates of the Moon one) and had  seven kids with her.   Beron’s death against the Ironborn started a succession crisis amongst House Stark, which GRRM said he plans to cover in a Dunk and Egg title with the working title the She Wolves of Winterfell

Beron made an alliance with Casterly Rock to fight off the Greyjoys.  I wonder if this alliance had a marriage pact?  Beron’s sister Arsa is listed as unwed, and has no issue as are Beron’s daughters Alysanne and  Berrena,  The Lord of CR at the time would have been Gerold the Golden, who married Rohanne Webber. Perhaps  Tion Lannsiter was betrothed to one of Beron’s daughters but had to break it to marry Ellyn Reyne? Maybe after Rohanne disappeared in 230 and if Arsa was still alive and unwed she made have been wed to Gerold? 

I’m curious as to the exact circumstances behind this succession crisis.   Unlike his brother Rodwell Beron had seven kids, Five of them sons and two daughters. Were descendants of his ancestor Serena Stark and passed over Edric’s two sons Cregard and Torrhen making the argument they had the better claim legally? (Which they did as Sansa 1.0 died without issue but the next Lord of Wintefell was Barthogen, not Cregard So did Cregard and Torrhen die without issue? Either way, I'm looking forward to how  GRRM covers this interesting period of Stark History. 

 Donner son of Beron died without issue passing rule of the North to his brother William who is Rickard Stark’s Grandfather

Timeline note for fans of Old Nan and fanfic writers. The Brandon Stark that died at 3 years old that  she came to nurse for is the son of William Stark, who died in 226 AC at the Battle of Long Lake  during the reign of Egg’s dad Maekar.  Maekar is Dany’s Great Great Grandpa.  

William married a Blackwood.  This is the second Blackwood marriage on the family tree, wonder how those two met

Rickard’s Aunt Jocelyn married an unknown Royce of the Gates of the Moon.   It’s her descendants Catelyn mentions could inherit Winterfell after Robb if he died without issue 

 I wonder if any of these descendants of Jocelyn  were made aware of their potential claim.   Maybe they married the descendants of Artos Stark  or his siblings Berena, Alysane and Errold if those three had any children of their own 

Rodrik “The Wandering Wolf” Stark, the youngest brother of Willaim Stark married Arya Flint of the Mountain Clans. (The First Flints)  They had two children,  Lyarra, the Starklings Grandma and Branda, who married a Rogers.  The Rogers are a Stormlands house so I wonder what the politics and or circumstances behind that marriage given that she could have easily married into  a Mountain Clan or another vassal house of House Stark,  Especially since his brother married a Blackwood, and his niece married a Royce.   GRRM is very deliberate in his choices for worldbuilding so I wonder if this is something that will come up in future books  . (  For example he could have made Tywin’s wife a distant cousin from the Lannisters of Lannisport but choose to make her his direct cousin.)  

I wonder if Ned named Arya after his grandmother.  Was Ned the favorite Grandson before Rickard shipped him off to the Vale?

 Eddard’s dad Rickard most likely married Lyarra Stark,  daughter of his Grandfather’s Brother Rodrik to tie up claims to Winterfell.  I wonder if  Tywin took note of his older colleagues choice of marriage when considering who he would marry?  

       Additional notes

       Again GRRM seems to have a boner for Lords of Winterfell dying without issue and ruling of the North passing to a brother. This makes the family tree quite a mess,    And you thought House Targaryen’s family tree was bad

I feel like Brandon Stark’s bastard Lonny Snow has some role to play in a Dunk and Egg tale. He’s on the family tree for a reason

Cregan’s first wife was a Norrey of the Mountain Clans.  Were the Norreys hoping to use their martial ties to their feudal overlords to try to depose House Wull as most powerful of the Mountain Clans?

No Bolton marriages, kinda surprised and kind of not.  Be interesting if there was though  

The Brandon Stark who died at 3 year’s old’s  mother was a Glover.

No Crannogmen marriages either.   I wonder why GRRM didn’t squeeze a marriage to House Reed in.

House Stark defiantly has had a lot of periods of instability and teetering in the edge of extinction.  A lot of relatives on the tree feel like their there to take up space and die so the Staklings have no cousins or distant relatives to inherit.    This instability is perhaps the reason the Starks don’t posses any Cadet Branches like the Lannisters, Arryns Harlaws, Goodbrothers Royces and Farwynds. 

On the subject of William Stark marrying a Blackwood, I wonder if he was betrothed to  Artos’ wife Lysara  Karstark but broke it to wed Lyanna Glover or Melantha Blackwood?

Was Jocelyn’s marriage to Royce of the Gates of the Moon a love match?  Her maternal grandmother was a Royce of Runestone, so I’m surprised Willaim didn't try and marry her into the main branch,the heir of Runestone  or another Great House.  She’s his only daughter, wouldn't he hand be wasted on son of a cadet branch’s who do not even possess a formal seat that can be inherited?  Perhaps William was playing a long game, trying to  get Jocelyns’s kids wed into House Arryn or its cadet branch at Gulltown?  Or maybe a Sunderland considering the Three Sisters strategic importance if the Vale of Arryn and Winterfell went to  war again?

[racefortheironthrone]

Between Melantha Blackwood and Lorra Royce which one was Lord Willem Stark's first marriage and which one was second?

I’m a bit confused. Willam Stark was the son of Lorra Royce, and married both Melantha Blackwood and Lyanne Glover. We don’t know which marriage came first.