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#Ml Fandom salt
buggachat · 3 months
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im gonna be honest i think the "adrien being a sentimonster was randomly thrown in season 4 with no planning on the writers' part" theory is really funny. like the writers of this show are just so bad at their job and so stupid that they tripped and fell in season 1 episode mr pigeon and accidentally spilled "a strange relationship to feathers" all over adrien by accident. they stubbed their toe on the coffee table and accidentally set up a mystery surrounding emilie's relationship to a feathery miraculous in season 1 volpina before we even knew what its powers were. then they spilled coffee all over their favorite shirts and at the same time spilled more white feathers around adrien in season 2 episode gorizilla. while writing the same episode someone had a really nasty sneeze and got boogers all over the script that said "use the imagery of two twin rings intertwined as the opener for the film of adrien's dead mother". they forgot to look both ways before crossing the street while writing the season 2 finale and were struck by a truck labeled "the peacock miraculous gives life" and then by a second truck with the license plate "it does so using white feathers identical to the white feathers that surround adrien in his ads" at the same time. they plummeted down an open manhole and hit the ground with a loud whack that sounded like "sentimonsters like bugette are just as real as any human..... and isn't bugette so...... perfect?" in season 3. on their way to the hospital they slipped on ice that had frozen in such a way to perfectly resemble the sentence "the word 'perfect' is consistently used throughout the series and by the creator ominously to denote how characters like adrien and kagami are 'different from everyone else', ever since season 1 episode simon says". during season 3 someone on the team got food poisoning and when they threw up felix came out instead and started another whacky series of comedic errors. the answer to the mystery of "how and why did emilie die? what life did adrien's loving mother create that she was willing to die for?" was originally gonna be "idk maybe she just exploded or somehting" probably, but then there was a really painful rock in one of the writers' shoes while walking to work that put them in a mood so bad that they forgot their original plan and instead made some bullshit up that somehow ended up being something that made sense with what we knew and put all the puzzle pieces together and actually made the show even more interesting and impactful on a rewatch because it put a lot of shots that at the time seemed random into a new and logical perspective as clear foreshadowing. it's actually impressive how stupid these silly clown writers are that they put strangely specific things so consistently throughout the entire series that resembled foreshadowing while never actually having intended it a single time! like........... really.......... really impressive............... i think..............
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Keep hearing people say maribug keep asking adricat if he's ok and he keep saying he's ok instead of telling her his problem but I don't remember it happened more than once in s4 in Rockettear but even then the circumstances of that episode did warrant the "nothing" answer he gave her unless he want to tell her that "nino tell me you let nino and alya know each other identity" which will reveal adricat identity. So when else did she ask? about the thing in hack-san, I think another credit goes to alya since she's the one who bring the topic to maribug who seems to be blissfully unaware that her leaving without telling adeicat that she send subtitute would be a problem.
I didn't get into this side of things in my other post because it was long and I wanted to focus on why Chat Noir's behavior was so frustrating, but this ask brings up the other big reason why the season four conflict was such a frustrating and terribly written plot line. Specifically, the part of your ask where you point out that Maribug seems blissfully unaware that her actions are having a negative impact on Chat Noir until someone points it out to her.
Yes, she is presented as blissfully unaware of this and every other interpersonal conflict we're given in season four. Your ask treats this as a failing on Maribug's part as if she should have obviously realized that she was in the wrong, but that's the whole problem. Telling kids - telling anyone really - that they should just magically know what others need is a frankly terrible life lesson as that's just not how the world works. You cannot just assume that everyone will have the same view of the world as you do and instantly pick up on the same issues as you do. That is the path to easily avoidable frustration and conflict. It also teaches people to assume that their view of the world is inherently correct when that is rarely the case. We often don't know the whole story and the other person's point of view may end up being equally or even more valid. This issue is extremely present in season four as Marinette has legitimate reasons to behave the way she does, which I'll get into in a bit.
If Marinette were written as feeling guilty about how she was treating Chat Noir, then this would be a different story. She'd be way more in the wrong and would shoulder a much greater portion of the blame. But as is? She has no idea that she's doing anything wrong. And until someone takes the time to tell her that her actions are causing harm, she is going to continue causing harm because she has no idea that she's causing harm.
In fact, I'd argue that the Alya thing in Hack San is a point in Maribug's favor. Throughout the episode, we see Marinette sending Alya messages on ways to be a good partner to Chat Noir, proving that she does in fact care about him. And then, as soon as Alya says, "You need to talk to Chat Noir," what does Maribug do?
She goes and talks to Chat Noir, giving him a pretty good apology for the problem she now knows she caused. Because, shockingly, Maribug doesn't actually want to hurt her partner. She also clearly cares about his feelings, making me want to take the season four conflict and tear it into itty bitty pieces because what is the conflict even supposed to be when you write shit like this?
I want to briefly step away from Miraculous and talk about this issue in a broader context via this YouTube short:
This short is from a Vietnamese woman who moved to Germany. Her YouTube channel is about her experiences there, including things like the short above which goes into the differences between what it means to be a dinner guest in Vietnam and what it means to be a dinner guest in Germany. In Vietnam, it's apparently standard for the guests to cook dinner with you where as, in Germany, you're expected to have the meal ready when the guests arrive, making this a situation where it's super easy to come across as rude just by doing what you think is normal.
Society is relatively aware that these types of culture clashes are a thing, but you don't have to be from different cultures to have these types of situations. Every person has their own unique needs and ideas of what "normal" is. The culture they were raised in will affect this, but so will their family, their personal needs, and many other factors. Two people can be raised on the same street and wind up with wildly different world views even though they supposedly share a culture. This is extra true when you add in compounding factors like neurodiversity, which is why it's an exercise in futility to say, "But Maribug should have realized..."
Well, she clearly didn't. And you can't change that she didn't realize whatever you're mad about. All you can do is have someone tell her what she's doing wrong. If she then continues the behavior, go ahead and judge away. But if she immediately corrects it like she did in Hack San? Doesn't that just prove that she truly didn't know that Chat Noir was hurting and would have probably fixed all of his problems if someone just pointed them out to her?
This is only exacerbated by the fact that Marinette's behavior in season four is largely unchanged from her behavior in previous seasons. The only major change is that she revealed her identity to Alya, but as soon as that's pointed out as a problem, she course corrects with an apology. After that, she thinks that everything is okay because why wouldn't she? Chat Noir said it was fine and everything else has been business as usual.
Bringing temp heroes into help as needed? That's been going on since season two. Having these additional members has been vital in multiple battles and there have been plenty of times where Chat Noir took a background role to the temp hero of the day like in Sapotis, Rena Rouge's season two debut. So why would Maribug suddenly think that this dynamic is a problem when it's been working fine for so long? We even had a whole episode about how Chat Noir was still needed in spite of the new heroes back in season three! Or, at least, I think that was Desperada's message? This show is shockingly bad at giving clear lessons.
Keeping guardian knowledge from Chat Noir? That's also been going on since season two and was even treated as a conflict that supposedly got resolved in the episode Syren which was the episode that ended with Master Fu coming to the mansion to talk to Adrien after everything was over.
When I watched that episode, I assumed this meant that Chat Noir was going to be more involved in things like picking the temp heroes. I actually thought this was how we were going to get Queen Bee because I knew she was going to be a thing, but it made no sense for Marinette to pick Chloe for a miraculous. Of course, I was wrong. Nothing changed after Syren. Chat Noir remained nothing more than the comic relief while Ladybug got all the insider info.
To be clear, I think that was a terrible move writing wise, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what they went with. This is the established dynamic. I can't even say that Alya learning Marinette's secret led to something new. She's just taken Marinette's old role while Marinette has taken on Master Fu's old role. This show loves it's status quo and Chat Noir has been at least tolerant of that status quo since Syren, so it's not surprising that Maribug doesn't register that this is a thing that should change and no one bothers to point it out to her even though she has a mentor in Tikki (and Su Han, I guess?) and a confidant in Alya and a whole slew of Kwamis who could also provide insight if they were allowed to do that sort of thing. (Sass and Wayzz were robbed of mentor roles.) Additional blame goes to Plagg because he should absolutely have told Adrien to talk to Ladybug. What is the point of giving these characters mentors who never mentor? It's aggravating in the extreme.
To circle back to the first part of your ask, outside of Hack San and Rocketear, I don't think there are any times when Ladybug invites feedback from Chat Noir unless you want to give credit to the end of Kuro Neko:
Cat Noir: (lands next to her) I've been a really temperamental kitty, m'lady. I didn't realize how much trouble I'd make for you by giving back my Miraculous. Ladybug: (sits closer to him) Just because I don't need you all the time doesn't mean that I don't need you at all, Cat Noir. No one could ever replace you.
Which isn't Maribug inviting him to tell her what's up, but she is clearly willing to listen to him and reassure him, further backing up my point about this conflict being some of the worst writing I've ever had to suffer through. If Maribug always fixes the issue as soon as she learns about it, you are not writing a situation where she's clearly in the wrong. You are writing an easily solved communication issue where she gets blamed for something she clearly doesn't realize she's doing wrong and it is so frustrating!!! I feel so bad for her. The next episode is Penalteam, btw, which starts the battle with this gem:
Ladybug: (laughs) Nice scare tactics, but it's not gonna work. Cat Noir and I are the best at soccer! Cat Noir: (Whispers to Ladybug) I don't know a thing about soccer M'lady. Maybe it's time to call the real team?
And basically just spends the whole episode making Chat Noir seems like a worthless partner while Maribug tries her best to make him - and everyone else - feel special.
Oh, and the episode before Kuro Neko? Well, it's technically Ephemeral, but that got magically overwritten so let's go one further back and we get to Dearest Family, which ends with this:
Cat Noir: (grabs a golden paper crown on the coffee table) Since I'm the king, (wears the crown on his head) would you be my queen, Ladybug? Ladybug: With pleasure, kitty cat! Tradition is tradition!
Oh yes, these two are in such conflict and Maribug does nothing to validate Chat Noir. He's in pain every episode and she's just totally oblivious to it.
If that was what they wrote, then I'd probably agree that we needed more instances of her asking if Chat Noir was okay. But it's not what they wrote. If you look through the list of season four episodes, you'll find that less than half of them deal with the supposed conflict of the season (by my count, only 8 of the 24 episodes before the final actually showcase the conflict and they are not in a logical order in terms of escalation as I tried to demonstrate above). The rest of the episodes flat out ignore it or even straight up work against the conflict like when Ladybug says this to Chat Noir in Guilttrip: "I probably don't tell you this enough, but I couldn't do this without you. And it'd be a lot less fun too."
Seriously, what even is this season? What is the conflict supposed to be? Because it sure as shit isn't Maribug undervaluing Chat Noir, if memory servers, season four sees her validate him more times than any other season. And it isn't her guiltily hiding things from him like so many fanfics claim because we have multiple points of evidence that prove that she's completely oblivious that there even is a conflict. So what conflict are the writers actually trying to write?
What's even more baffling is that none of this logically leads to the loss at the end of the season:
Maribug's new secrets didn't lead to her downfall. The only reason she lost was because of the secret that's always been there - a fact that's never revealed to her - and a freaking evil twin! So why did it matter that Maribug was keeping secrets? This is made even worse by season five maintaining all of the secrets, once again begging the question of what lesson were we trying to teach here???
Chat Noir wasn't needed for the final fight of the season, Maribug only needed the powers of a few of the temp heroes to win, a baffling ending to a season whose focus was Chat Noir feeling unimportant. You could scrap that conflict entirely and the ending would not change. In fact....
Adrien quitting to be nothing more than a good little boy who obeys his father would have actually saved the world from eventually being rewritten. If you think about it, the season four final actually punishes Adrien for being defiant. So does season five as, if Chat Noir had quit, his father would still be alive. I thought this show was supposed to be a romcom, not a tragedy. Why is Adrien being punished for being a hero? Is this supposed to be karma for lying to Ladybug with the whole Catwalker thing?
This shit is why I say I'm a writing salt, character sugar blog. I can't get mad at the characters when they're in such a nonsense story where things never logically tie together. They all deserve so much better.
None of this is meant to imply that ignorance is a blanket excuse for hurting others. Nor is it meant to imply that you have to forgive someone who hurt you just because they didn't mean to. There's a ton of nuance around these topics. But season four acknowledges none of that nuance while creating a situation that desperately needed nuance because there was no clear right and wrong here. Should Maribug work to be more aware of others feelings? Sure, but that journey can only start after she's made aware of her faults and no one ever points them out to her. Does Chat Noir need to work on clearly communicating his needs? Desperately, but no one is teaching him that lesson so he remains a terrible communicator who suffers in silence. What impressively bad writing.
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fille-de-skroa · 7 months
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Kids understood Miraculous better than most of the adults MLB fans out there. This says something about the mentality of the fandom.
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bugoutreviewgirlie · 4 months
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One thing that gets me is that people will say they want flawed characters, but when said character exhibits said flaws, suddenly Ladybug is a bad person for undervaluing Chat and Marinette is a bad main character because she--
*checks notes*
--shows symptoms of ADHD, and had symptoms of PTSD from years of constant bullying.
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hawkeabelas · 22 days
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i will never understand just how desperately people want Marinette to be punished for the choices she made at the end of season 5. like, yeah, she kept some information from her boyfriend that he definitely has the right to have. that sucks. but the choice makes sense: she wants to protect his feelings, he just became a literal orphan and she doesn't want to add to his grief, also from her perspective she's a superhero and he's a civilian (we know this isn't the case, but that's dramatic irony baybee!) and that's a burden for her alone to carry as Ladybug.
Obviously this will eventually cause conflict, maybe even an argument or several. But Marinette and Adrien are very emotionally mature for their age, out of necessity, and I think they'll work through it and be stronger in the end.
but my fucking god do people want the worst for Marinette in season 6. to the point where they talk about an adrinette breakup being inevitable and earned. like this is the worst thing Marinette has ever done and she deserves to have everyone in Paris hate her forever.
like fucking hell. she's a 14 year old who was tasked with responsibilities that would make most adults crumble. give the girl a break.
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tenebraevesper · 11 months
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The Observations of Miraculous Ladybug: The Tales of Wasted Potential
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This is a compilation of various rules and messages within and outside the Miraculous Ladybug universe that I had discovered while watching the show and participating in discussions over the years. I might write more of them, but for now, these are my current observations:
-If you’re the main heroine, you have no control over your emotions and you should be punished for even just breathing the wrong way.
-If you’re the main heroine, you need to be taught a lesson in every episode, regardless if it makes sense or the same lesson is being repeated ad infinitum.
-If you’re the main heroine, you’re not allowed to move on from your crush on the main hero, regardless of how much suffering you went through, because this action somehow breaks the rules of the universe.
-If you’re the main heroine, you’ll be subjected to shocking amounts of humiliation, emotional and physical abuse, all either for committing the crime of being a teenager or for “comedy” purposes. Sometimes its both.
-Obsessing over your crush is “funny” and it should be used to further humiliate the main heroine. Even better if it’s labeled as stalking.
-If you’re the main heroine, nobody cares about your mental health, regardless of how stressed out you are or if you’re close to a mental breakdown.
-If the Writers says only a year has passed in-universe, despite the contradictory evidence, then only a year has passed. Stop trying to make sense of the timeline because it is only supposed to make sense to the Writers.
-If you’re the main hero, look cute and wear a mask to hide your identity, you are free to harass the main heroine without being called out.
-Remember girls, telling the main hero “No!” or “I’m in love with someone else!” translates into “I’m playing hard to get”.
-No, the main heroine has no right to consent because the universe already paired her up with the guy who harasses her and still doesn’t understand that “No means no!”
-If you don’t obsess over your crush and think about them day and night, are you even in love with them?
-Unless you’re French and a Writer for Miraculous Ladybug, you have no right to criticize the show.
-Yes, that also goes for those who are professional Writers.
-Even if you have valid criticism backed up by proper arguments and are capable of discussing it in a civil manner, you will still be labeled as a hater and blocked.
-”Miraculous Ladybug is more popular than Pokémon!” [Source: Thomas Astruc]
-Everyone who doesn’t ship the Love Square is evil. No exception.
-If you’re a 14 year old teenage girl who was spoiled and emotionally neglected by her parents and your biggest crime was to bully people, you are irredeemable and deserve to burn in Hell.
-Somehow, a grown adult man who mentally, emotionally and physically abused his son, manipulated people into committing crimes, committed many acts of terrorism (including murder) and almost started WWIII on purpose is somehow more redeemable than a teenager who was manipulated and abused by said man.
-THE ABOVE POINT BEARS REPEATING!!! A TERRORIST IS MORE REDEEMABLE THAN AN ABUSED TEENAGER!!!
-Oh, and the terrorist also gets a statue in his honor and is remembered as a hero after his death.
-If you’re the main hero, you are perfect and the world is flawed and needs to bow to your whims.
-If you’re the main hero, you don’t need character development. All you have to do is to whine and complain, and the universe will bend backwards for you and deliver everything on a silver platter.
-If you’re the main hero, knowing the main heroine’s secrets (which aren’t even hers to share!) is more important than saving the people. Who cares if people are dying, you need to know what your crush/co-worker is hiding for you!
-No matter of bad your lies are, as the B villain of the show, you have the power to lower everyone’s IQ to the point they’ll believe your lies. Also, Google doesn’t exist.
-Even if you have legitimate evidence that the Liar is, y’know, lying, you will be labeled as jealous.
-I’m amazed that Lila isn’t ruling the world when she has the superpower of making everyone stupid beyond belief.
-Paris is apparently isolated in its own bubble and the French government doesn’t exist. How else do you explain a teenage girl becoming the Mayor of Paris?
-The police in Paris is useless. Unless you’re Asian. Then they’ll SWAT you.
-Every great teacher knows that you punish the victim and reward the bully.
-You don’t want to write character development because it’s “too hard”? Replace the character with a cardboard cutout that is just like that character but nicer and/or perfect. Nobody will notice the difference!
-If they do and complain about it, label them as haters.
-If you’re the main hero, you will always get away with lying and gaslighting the main heroine. She is not allowed to contradict you because the Writers said so. If she does, the fandom will grab their torches and pitchforks to hunt her down and punish her.
-Mary Suethor Writing Advice 101: To redeem your character, reward them with a girlfriend or boyfriend. No, they don’t have to go through a redemption arc. No, evil characters don’t get paired up with anyone.
-The main heroes are not allowed to progress the story at all. That is reserved for the very character Astruc hates so much that he replaced him with the main hero.
-Being a mentor sucks! That’s why you can unload all of your responsibilities on the main heroine, who didn’t even want to be the main heroine in the first place, and peace out.
-We are going to show you precisely why the Love Square doesn’t work and is actually very toxic, but we will also pretend that had never happened in favor of shilling the Love Square.
-If you’re the main hero, you’re free to break anything you come across in a fit of rage. Don’t worry, the main heroine will fix it for you.
-If you’re the main hero, you will be forgiven for cheating on your girlfriend with someone who wants nothing with you because your current girlfriend isn’t your true love.
-If you are the main hero and can’t get together with the girl you had been obsessing over for 100+ Episodes, drop her and start a relationship with the girl you completely ignored but is now available. She’s a good enough replacement.
-If a child is being abused and/or emotionally manipulated, you should place the blame on the child and not on the adult who manipulated/abused them.
-The Status Quo will be upheld regardless of how ridiculous the show is about upholding it. If it doesn’t make sense, then it’s your problem and the Writers aren’t too blame.
-If you’re the main hero, you will be forgiven for attempted murder/actual murder of several teenagers, but God forbid you don’t feel bad for almost murdering the main villain.
-If you’re the main hero and don’t try to murder the guy who made fun of your girlfriend, are you even in love?
-Toxic relationships should be admired and looked up to.
-Somehow, 5 Seasons of filler are considered more important and impactful than any actual story progression.
-Who needs lore and world-building? Let’s shove that sucker into a comic book no one will ever read.
-Common sense doesn’t exist in this world.
-Neither to therapists nor CPS.
-Falling in love and getting together with your love interest will result in the destruction of the world and you should be ashamed for thinking love was anything but destructive.
-The main villain will win.
-Let me repeat that: THE MAIN VILLAIN WILL WIN!
-If you’re an adult male and your OTP isn’t winning, you are free to assault a teenage girl and force her to be with the teenage boy you consider her ideal partner.
-If you’re the main hero and you have caused a huge problem (think “abandoning the city you were supposed to protect” or “murder a girl” type of problem), the solution to it is to abandon your partner and let her solve it for you. Don’t worry, you’re a Gary Stu, everyone will forgive you for your “mistakes” or completely gloss over them.
-Calling a liar out on their lies is hypocritical and you should be ashamed of yourself.
-You cannot consider yourself a best friend unless you have committed the following acts: intruding on your friend’s privacy and break her stuff, cause her emotional distress for your own validation, force her into a situation that causes her to freak out or get hurt and then scream at her for not following a plan you never told her about.
-Doing something innocent with your powers, like delivering a gift, will result in the end of the world.
-Somehow, a candy cane suit is considered stylish. Yeah, I still don’t understand how Gabriel is a fashion designer with that kind of taste in outfits.
-All female superheroes should have skintight suits with the camera focusing on their breasts/butt. Have I mentioned that they’re all minors?
-The main hero doesn’t have to participate in the finale. Him learning that his father was the main villain will ruin his perfect image of his family and that is not allowed. We need to mollycoddle him to death.
-Instead of developing your support characters, make them all collectively share a single braincell. Mob mentality at its best!
-Who needs depth when they all have the minimal requirement of one character trait?
-If you break up with your boyfriend, go for his identical cousin. They already look the same and the cousin at least has a spine. Win-Win!
-Any important plot points will be swept under the rug and be forgotten about.
-Félix is still the best character in this show! I will die on this hill!
-Somehow, a 3 minute PV!Trailer delivers more than 100+ episodes of the Miraculous Ladybug show.
-FanFic Writers do a better job at writing than professional Writers. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact.
-You want to add to or remove something from the story, but it creates a plot hole? Just retcon it and lie to your audience that this was always your intention regardless if it makes sense in the narrative.
-If the fans question you about the retcons, call them haters and block them.
-”This is a kids show!” is a valid excuse for lazy writing, according to Miraculous Ladybug Writers (and some fans).
-Negative emotions are bad and will turn you into a monster. You are not allowed to feel angry or sad at all.
-Characters are not allowed to make logical decisions. That would make them *le gasp* competent!
-Every support character is obligated to worship the Love Square. If they don’t, they’re the spawn of Satan.
-Gaslighting your crush into bending over backwards to your whims is considered romantic.
-If you’re a superhero, you are considered a celebrity and have no rights to privacy. The whole population of Paris is entitled to know who you’re dating.
-Unless you’re the main heroine or the bully, you won’t be faced with the consequences of your actions.
-Yes, even the villain gets away without any consequences.
-Miraculous Ladybug is about spectacle over substance. Don’t expect anything resembling good writing. Or anything that requires to think about the plot more than five seconds.
-Somehow, a teenage boy who attempted to kiss the main heroine once and got punched by her is more demonized than the main hero who did the same for 100+ episodes and still doesn’t care that “No means no”.
-Character development is overrated. Same goes for any story progression.
-If you’re the main hero, you’re free to abandon your partner in a moment of crisis and shirk your responsibilities. You’ll still be forgiven and everyone will act as if nothing happened. Same goes for attempting to murder your partner’s best friend.
-Being a good parent involves emotionally neglecting your daughter and abandoning her, as well as punishing her by sending her to live with her abusive mother. You don’t have to take any responsibilities for your actions and you can easily replace the “evil” daughter with a “good” daughter who isn’t even related to you.
-You are not allowed to sympathize with an abused child, but it is a-okay to sympathize with the abuser.
-The main heroine will always be punished, whether she deserves it or not. She is obligated to solve everyone’s problems regardless whether they’re strangers to her.
-For some reason, disciplining the bully is the obligation of the victim rather than, oh, I dunno... the parents and the teacher!
-It doesn’t matter if you’re an abusive father and a terrorist, you’ll still be forgiven if you did it out of love for your wife.
-If you like a character, but the majority of the fandom hates them, you will be bullied to death (I’m serious about this, this has happened).
-Rather than developing established relationships, it is more fun to add unnecessary love interests to complicate things, only to drop them in the next episode with no development and act like nothing happened.
-If you’re the main heroine and asking for help from other superheroes because your own partner is ditching you for no given reason, then you’re cheating (yes, it was phrased like that) on your partner and you should be ashamed of yourself.
-I hate Kuro Neko. Adrien is insufferable in that episode.
-If someone tells you “they’re made for each other”, you need to accept that you’re destined to only be with that person and no one else. No, you have no say in that.
-”She’s just a friend” is not a valid excuse for being dense as a brick.
-Seriously, if anyone brings up those quotes again, I’ll hit them with a brick.
-If you are paired up with someone, you are not allowed to have a life outside your love interest. That goes especially for the Love Square.
-Everyone in this show is an idiot to some degree. Félix is the one who holds all of the braincells, while Lila learned to break the system and metagame.
-If you want a better show that focuses on magic and romance, go watch any mahou shoujo anime in existence and spare yourself the hours you’re gonna waste with this show.
-How Miraculous Ladybug Should’ve Ended? Félix dusts Gabriel in Emotion and tells Adrien and Marinette that Gabriel was the Monarch. End of story.
If you have made any observation, leave a comment about it in the replies, because I’m sure that I missed some.
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gale-gentlepenguin · 10 months
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Show!Adrien: So A lot of people are complaining that you're a misogynist? Movie!Adrien: Why would they think that? Show!Adrien: According to the comments, By saying Ladybug should be your sidekick. Movie!Adrien: It was Bravado, new chance at freedom and I was trying to sound confident. Besides as soon as she showed how awesome she was, I realized I was more of the sidekick and even said so publicly. It was never about gender I was trying to hide my insecurity and hollowness. Show!Adrien: Fair, sounds like they didnt understand that while watching the movie. Movie!Adrien: Thank you, though I do wish I got along better with her at first like you did. You were much more in sync and more competent. Show!Adrien: Thats nice of you.
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gameguy20100 · 7 months
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If I had a pound for every black girl that was called worse than an abusive terrorist for being insensitive and emotionally dense, I'd have two pounds.
Which isn't a lot. But it's fucking annoying and depressing it happened twice.
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theerurishipper · 6 months
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Just saw a post that said Adrien is a love bomber... are we really throwing buzzwords around for the sake of salting on Adrien, the abuse victim? Love bombing is an emotional manipulation tactic, and it is usually paired with the cycle of abuse. Adrien is not abusive. He is not emotionally manipulating Marinette. He is showing her affection. I guess we're demonizing showing our loved ones any sort of affection now...
Yeah fr, people will throw around all kinds of words istg. This is the definition of love bombing:
Love bombing is a tactic in which someone “bombs” you with extreme displays of attention and affection with the intent to manipulate you. Although being showered with "love" can seem positive at the beginning of a romantic relationship, love bombing can lead to gaslighting and abuse. Psychologists caution it might be a tactic used by a narcissist or sociopath in an attempt to control you.
Anyways, Adrien doesn't do this. In fact, this is what Gabriel does to Adrien. From this article:
In a relationship with a pathological predator, love bombing is combined with intermittent reinforcement to create a sense of instability and longing in the victim. Intermittent reinforcement (in the context of psychological abuse) is a pattern of cruel, callous treatment mixed in with periodic affection. The abuser hands out rewards such as affection, a compliment, or gifts sporadically and unpredictably throughout the abuse cycle. This causes the victim to perpetually seek their approval while settling for the crumbs of their occasional positive behavior.
This is exactly what Gabriel does. Whenever it seems like Adrien is rebelling against him because he is tired of Gabriel's neglect, Gabriel will offer him a little concession. Adrien is rebelling against him? Fine, let him go to school. In this way, Adrien doesn't rebel against his father anymore, and Gabriel can keep him under his control, because now Adrien will continue to believe the best of his father and will continue to try and earn his love. Another example is in Gorizilla. Adrien gets tired of Gabriel stopping him from seeing his mother's movie, and sneaks out. Later, Gabriel allows him to watch the movie, and throws in a little bit of gaslighting in there, essentially blaming Adrien for not being open with him and making him feel guilty, when it's his own fault his son didn't open up to him, which is because he's a neglectful asshat.
This is Gabriel and Adrien's relationship. Adrien stays with his father and tries so hard to please him, because Gabriel has instilled in him that love is something conditional that is to be earned. And whenever it seems like Adrien is breaking away from this mentality, Gabriel will do something "nice" for him, which will bring Adrien right back, because he's an abused child who wants to believe the best of his father and wants his love and affection.
Again, to quote the article:
As author Adylen Birch writes, “Creating fear of losing the relationship and then relieving it periodically with episodes of love and attention is the perfect manipulation.” Much like the way a gambler at a slot machine becomes addicted to playing the game for a potential win despite the risk of major loss, a victim in the abuse cycle can become attached to the idea of getting a return on their investment in the relationship despite the toll it takes on their well-being.
There's actually an example of this in the show. From Illusion:
Adrien: Speaking of which, Dad, I'm not really comfortable with having my face on all these rings. That's actually why I didn't want to be a model anymore, to avoid that. Do you understand? Gabriel: Of course, I understand, my son. But that's the point; it's just an image, it's not you! And since this image frees you from your obligations, we, the Agrestes, are able to spend more time together. But if you'd rather everything went back to the way it was before, just say the word. Adrien: (wears the Alliance ring on his index finger) You're probably right.
Gabriel even explicitly says what he's doing, which is holding the threat of going back to their previous relationship over his son's head to emotionally manipulate him. To refer back to the article, he creates the fear of losing the relationship in Adrien, and then makes a big deal of showing that he cares so much about Adrien and his future, and he makes him breakfast. This is love-bombing. And so, Adrien goes along with whatever Gabriel wants as long as he doesn't lose it. And so, he continues to do what Gabriel wants, which is to accept the Alliance rings and his image being used in ways he doesn't want. And true enough, Adrien goes back to defending his father after he finally worked up the courage to confront him for his shit in the beginning.
Adrien: My father? But Nino, he's changed, he's making an effort, and it's the first time he's coming to school!
I could go on, and there are several examples of this in the show, but then we'd be here forever. But I highly recommend that article. I just read it, and it is literally Gabriel and Adrien, oh my god. It's very informative and I think we should all be aware of this.
But anyways, back to your question anon (sorry for the tangent). Adrien doesn't love bomb. Adrien is just very affectionate. He doesn't withdraw affection from anyone, he doesn't make them settle for scraps. He doesn't try to manipulate anyone, he doesn't gaslight anyone, he doesn't try to make them seek his approval. Adrien is always kind and loving towards everybody he cares for.
In fact, Adrien does the exact opposite. He fawns over others, and he tries to earn their love and approval. This is because of Gabriel's abuse. And to accuse him of love bombing is so disgusting. Honestly, people just throw those words around like candy. But then again, I've seen what the side of the fandom that might have said this usually says, and it's usually the same victim-blamey abuse apologist rhetoric, so I'm not even surprised.
Thank you for your ask!
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angelshizuka · 8 months
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"If you met someone like Chloe in real life you'd probably hate them."
No shit, just admit you don't understand the difference between a fictional character and a real person and go, no need to embarrass yourself.
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buggachat · 11 months
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honestly just in general it's very exhausting to try to analyze media that is literally meant to be analyzed, only for the replies to be filled with people arguing not against your analysis, but against the premise that the media can be analyzed at all.
i don't even know what to say about it without starting to really betray my frustration, so i'll just settle with— just don't engage with analysis posts? I'm serious. if you're typing a response to a media analysis post, reread what you've written and ask yourself "is this comment/response against the very concept of analyzing the media at all?" and if the answer is yes then delete it all and go sit in the shame corner. throw your curtains away if you want to so bad and stop telling me that I'm not allowed to hum and haw at the fact mine are blue
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literaphobe · 10 months
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i was thinking about not saying anything because really i just want peace amongst the lands but as a person who likes torturing herself on bad social media sites i wanna say the situation with the 'movie is better vs show is better' thing isn't as simple as two camps sprouting simultaneously.
if anything, after the movie was premiered in theatres and leaked there was this camp who saw it that very loudly and harshly spread this whole hate campaign on the show, straight up worshipped the movie like it was the best thing since sliced bread, just started hating on the show like they were antis. in all honesty some people talked like they were being PAID. because 'movie is way better than the shitty show!!' was all i could see on twitter for over a month and i didn't watch it so i was like um maybe it really is groundbreaking?
but then the movie officially released and all of a sudden i saw a lot more 'tbh i didn't think it was that great' takes pop up in replies and comments and posts. it was evening out and then i started to see 'just let people enjoy the movie!! stop bullying us for preferring it over the show!' tweets and 'theres two cakes!! can't we just eat!!' type posts. and i genuinely think most people (on tumblr) want to keep the peace and aren't trying to cause harm. but it puts a slightly bitter taste in my mouth because people were straight up harassing thomas astruc over how the movie did everything so good and his show version was so awful lousy and cringefail. and regardless of how he responded or what your opinion is of him ifl people went too far in their 'support' of the movie at the expense of the show. and having this context and knowing how awful people have been could be sort of... eye-opening? i guess?
because its one thing for two camps to suddenly start fighting. its another when one side was poking the bear for no reason whatsoever for AGES only to start victimizing themselves when the opposite happened (and never usually to the same extent)
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hypexion · 2 years
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There was no Chloé Bourgeois  Redemption Arc
It’s time to for me to write about the so-called “Redemption Arc“ for Chloé Bourgeois, of Miraculous Ladybug infamy. Many people claim that such a thing existed. These people are wrong. While Miraculous Ladybug may provide the illusion of such an arc, that’s all it is - an illusion. And like all illusions, it falls apart once you touch it.
There’s also some questionable takes in regards to exactly how responsible Marinette is meant to be for Chloé’s “redemption”, which need to be tackled since they help feed into the illusion. And also because I find them deeply offensive. To me, personally.
A neccesary preface here is that I’m not saying Chloé is incapable of redemption. What I am saying, however, is that during seasons two and three of Miraculous Ladybug, the redemption arc people claim existed clearly did not.
Redemption 101
In the most basic sense, a redemption arc is a type of character arc where a bad character decides to stop being bad and start being good. Along the way, it’s generally accepted that they need to atone for their bad actions, and perhaps do something to reverse the damage such actions have caused. A critical component required for this to work is that the character both understands that their actions are harmful, and so decides to act in a better way.
Probably the most famous redemption arc in western animation is Zuko’s, from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Zuko begins the show as an antagonist, directly attempting to capture Aang, the Avatar and Last Airbender. Doing so will allow the Fire Nation to win the war, and also complete their genocide of the Air Nomad people. However, Zuko realises that supporting the Fire Nation’s bid for world domination is harmful to others, and himself. By the end of the series, he has rejected the worldview of his father, grandfather and great grandfather, and indeed helps Aang defeat the Firelord. Along the way, Zuko find a way to help not just Aang, but also Katara and Sokka, who are also victims of Fire Nation Imperialism. Zuko earns redemption not through the decision to be good, but by performing good, and in many cases, reparative actions.
Honestly, from this basic definition, I think it’s pretty obvious that Chloé hadn’t even started the first step of a redemption arc by the time she betrays Ladybug in Miracle Queen. She never accepts her actions are wrong, makes no attempt to change them without an ulterior motive, and generally continues to do bad things for bad reasons. But in spite of this, the claims of this mythical redemption arc don’t just exist, they are considered generally accepted. Why? It’s complicated, yet simple.
Chloé Who?
On a basic level, Chloé Bourgeois is fairly generic character - the “mean girl“ school bully, who torments the protagonist, Marinette Dupain-Cheng. In keeping with Miraculous’ superhero genre, Chloé admires Ladybug, Marinette’s superhero alter-ego. How ironic! Generally, Chloé acts as a minor, civilian-level antagonist to Marinette, who gets in the way, while being clearly much less of a deal than Hawk Moth. However, due to the mechanics of akumatization, Chloé’s actions often spiral into larger, supervillain-shaped consequences. Because while she may fit into the bully archetype, there is one thing that makes her somewhat atypical: a reach that extends far beyond the school setting.
André Bourgeois is his daughter’s primary enabler. As a rich person and Mayor of Paris, he has a significant amount of influence. Influence he makes freely available to Chloé for basically any purpose. No grudge is too petty, no problem too small when it comes to indulging her whims, and no bridge is too big burn. Nobody who theoretically has the authority to say no to Chloé actually can, because her father is implicitly approving her every action. It’s hardly a shock that Chloé is consistently terrible when she faces no consequences for her actions.
But there’s one last piece in the Chloé puzzle - Audrey Bourgeois. Chloé really wants her mother’s approval, but her mother lives in another country. Audrey is also a terrible person, a character who is literally defined by her vileness. She has Chloé’s attitude, and André’s level of influence, and like her daughter, immediately throws a tantrum when she can’t get her way. The attention Audrey gives towards her daughters is primarily negative, and that’s when she actually pays attention to them. Thus, Audrey provides Chloé with a Tragic Backstory, and some much needed Sympathy Points. This, of course, forms the foundation of the Redemption Illusion.
The thing about Chloé’s relationship (or lack thereof) with her mother is while it explains her behavior, it doesn’t excuse it. The harm she inflicts is no less because of it, and many of her actions cannot be ignored due to it. I think there’s a pretty obviously piece of bad logic here. Many characters who undergo redemption arcs are often sympathetic villains. Chloé is a sympathetic villain. But that doesn’t mean that Despair Bear, the episode that introduces this sympathetic side is the start of, nor the foundation of a redemption arc. If anything, Despair Bear shows the primary reason why Chloé isn’t on the path to redemption - her attempts to be “nice“ are motivated entirely to maintain her friendship with Adrien, and once she has what she wants, she immediately reverts to her normal behaviour. This theme of apparently good acts being done for selfish reasons will be repeated later.
Marinette: Victim, Not Victimizer
An important part of the Redemption Illusion is how it ultimately revolves around not just Chloé, but Marinette. Chloé is nothing but negative towards Marinette, but at the same time admires Ladybug... who is Marinette. This isn’t Alya style “wow look how cool and heroic she is“ style admiration, however. No, Chloé, in a sense, wants to be Ladybug. First by pretending to be her, and later via the Bee Miraculous, which would seem to put her on the same level as Ladybug. But since Ladybug is Marinette, this can only lead to conflict.
While Chloé has perpetrated many on-screen acts that are selfish, obnoxious and downright cruel, something that manages to slip under the radar is her pre-Origins treatment of Marinette. Sabine’s comment about how long Marinette and Chloé have been in the same class indicates that the latter has been bullying the former for at least three years. This has evidently damaged Marinette’s self-confidence, since even after being Ladybug in part one of Origins, she still thinks she can’t do it, and tries to give it up. She also doesn’t dispute Alya’s rather hasty assessment of Chloé as evil, and immediately assumes that Adrian is a bad person because he’s friends with Chloé.
Marinette’s relationship with Chloé is already poisoned at the start of the show. And it’s entirely Chloé’s fault. She didn’t have to bully Marinette. Being cruel to Marinette wouldn’t earn Chloé her mother’s approval. All it achieves is making Chloé feel better, by making Marinette suffer. Three years of bullying isn’t something you can ignore. It’s not something Marinette can simply “get over”, even as Ladybug. She probably hates Chloé, and every drop of enmity is earned. But how can I know this all from the limited picture painted by Origins, and the glimpses into Marinette’s pre-Ladybug life? I don’t. This isn’t something I needed to find from the text or subtext of the show. So then, how do I know?
I know because I lived it. When I was Marinette’s age, I was bullied. A lot. It hurt. But what people don’t want to acknowledge is that being a victim of bullying doesn’t just make you sad. It’s deeper than that. It made me angry. At the perpetrators, and the staff who let it happen, no matter how many times it was brought to their attention. It’s took me years to realise just how much it affected me, how my aggressive behaviour in certain online spaces might be connected to it. In Marinette, I see a part of myself. So when I see people claim that Marinette is somehow to blame for Chloé’s actions, that “Marinette should have given Chloé a chance“, it makes me a little angry. If someone told me I should be responsible for making my bullies better people, I’d tell them to fuck off.
Attempting to shift the responsibility for repairing Chloé’s bad behaviour on to Marinette is simply victim blaming with extra steps. Yes, Marinette is Ladybug, hero of Paris. But Marinette is also Marinette, a long-term victim of Chloé, and someone who Chloé continues to try to abuse, even if the efficacy is no longer there. It’s also not really fair to Chloé, either, when you think about it. Marinette is positioned to think the worst of Chloé, meaning she’s likely to see any regression on Chloé’s part as proof that the whole endevour is pointless. For Chloé to escape her toxic behaviour, she needs help from someone she hasn’t caused significant damage to.
And as with the rest of the Redemption Illusion, you have to ignore a lot of the text to make the idea that Marinette is somehow to blame seem reasonable. Marinette shows more compassion to Chloé than Chloé does to anyone in her entirety. It simply doesn’t help, because Chloé doesn’t want Ladybug to be nice to her, she wants Ladybug to accept her as an equal. And when that isn’t given, Chloé isn’t above trying to take it, with disasterous results.
Bad Bee-haviour
A key point in Zuko’s redemption arc is when he joins Team Avatar. This is when he truly abandons the ideals of Fire Nation Imperialism, and chooses to work directly against them. It’s not the end, but a midpoint. And it’s not a reward - it’s a duty, a commitment to help Aang defeat Ozai. I think it’s worth noting that Zuko actually gets weaker due to this, as he can no longer draw on his negative emotions to firebend. Only by helping Aang discover the pre-imperialism version of Firebending does he regain the ability himself. Rejecting the negative brings Zuko so far, but to be complete he must embrace a positive alternative.
Chloé’s transformation into Queen Bee is her anti-Zuko moment. She doesn’t work to attain it - the Bee Miraculous is literally dropped into her path. It gives her power, yes, which she immediately abuses. Queen Bee doesn’t exist to do good, like the other four heroes at the time. No, Queen Bee exists to exalt Chloé. Becoming a hero doesn’t move her to toward redemption. If anything, it moves her away from it.
It all comes back to Chloé’s first act as Queen Bee. In an attempt to prove that she’s “exceptional“, she transforms and tries to find a problem to solve. But when she can’t find one, she chooses to create one. By paralysing a train conductor, which ends up creating a problem she can’t solve. If it weren’t for Ladybug and Chat Noir’s timely intervention, a lot of people would have been injured, or even killed. All because Chloé wanted to seem like a “hero”. It’s an act so callous that it should have marked the end of her career as Queen Bee. It’s instant, irrevocable proof that she can’t be trusted with a Miraculous, because she nearly murdered a bunch of people with it.
But even if you ignore the train incident, being Queen Bee clearly doesn’t make Chloé better. In both Stormy Weather 2 and Miracular, her cruelty is what triggers an akumatization. In Animaestro, she forms a truce with Marinette entirely for the purpose of harassing Kagami. These are not the actions of someone trying to be a better person. Indeed, they look very much like the actions of a person who doesn’t think they need to change, and is thus continuing as usual.
Yet in spite of the lack of actual progress, Queen Bee is perhaps the keystone of the Redemption Illusion. She wants to be a hero. So it is assumed that if she wants to be a hero, she must be good. I suppose this line of argument sounds convincing, if you only consider it on the surface level. The problem is that it falls apart when you actually examine Chloé’s actual behaviour after becoming Queen Bee. Which is mostly the same as her behaviour before, except sometimes she tries leveraging being Queen Bee for status or bullying. This is because her motivation for being a hero isn’t heroic - it’s selfish.
Malicious Queen
Of course, the Redemption Illusion eventually collided with reality in the form of Miracle Queen. When Hawk Moth offers her the Bee Miraculous, Chloé doesn’t hesitate to take it, and is then willingly akumatized. While I do think this could have had a little more setup, it’s an action that’s entirely in-character for Chloé. She’s selfish, she’s cruel, and she’s unwilling to change. But Ladybug couldn’t be bullied or blackmailed via Chloé’s normal methods. So when Hawk Moth offers her a way around Ladybug’s No, of course she takes it. She accepts akumatization because she believes that the best way to prove her superiority to Ladybug is by harming her. The same way she harmed many other characters up to this point. (Including Marinette, who is Ladybug.)
Some people attempt, in the usual poor manner, to deflect Chloé’s responsibility for her actions onto Ladybug. Gotta keep that victim blame train going, I guess. The logic is that because Ladybug chose Kagami to help fight Heart Hunter for selfish reasons, Chloé is magically absolved of her guilt. I can’t disagree that picking Kagami in order to break up her date with Adrien was a bad thing, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that bad. The fact of the matter is that Ladybug probably wasn’t going to bring back Queen Bee, no matter the situation. It’s not her job to make Chloé a better person, and it’s not her responsibility to stop Chloé from making bad decisions.
Marinette made a dodgy decision because of a teenage crush and suffered massively disproportionate consequences. Chloé decided to help a terrorist because she felt entitled to the Bee Miraculous, and could still go back to her incredibly privileged life afterwards. It’s Marinette who had to live with the consequences of both their actions, becoming Guardian far earlier than she should have. A consequence that only occured because Chloé decided to help Hawk Moth. Once again, Marinette is not the problem; Chloé is the problem.
Ultimately, Miracle Queen is entirely in-character for Chloé, because Chloé has never been a good person. The Redemption Illusion persists, however, because people seem to have blended her few sympathetic traits with her occational (and temporary) good actions to create a version of Chloé who doesn’t exist within the show. Along with one last act, that really isn’t as heroic as it might seem on the surface.
The One Where She Isn’t Akumatized
In Miracular, Hawk Moth tries to akumatize Chloé and fails. Up to that point, akumatization had been presented as 100% effective, with no attempts to resist being successful. This is occationally used to suggest that Chloé is becoming good, which ignores basically all information the show provides about akumatization.
Throughout Miraculous Ladybug, succumbing to akumatization is never considered to be an immoral act. Indeed, the reasons for akumatization vary, from completely unjustified selfish reasons, to justified selfish reasons and more community-minded reasons. But no matter what a victim’s starting intentions are, Hawk Moth twists them around until he can make them into a supervillain. People are even akumatized over stuff like “kids don’t respect panthers“ and “ice cream was wrong“, which aren’t really things you can appy a moral judgement to.
Since being akumatized is not a moral failure, it follows that resisting is not a moral success. While breaking the akumatization is impressive, with very few people achieving it, that doesn’t mean Chloé gets merit points for it. Indeed, Chloé resists akumatization on the basis that she believes she can still be Queen Bee. She rejects Hawk Moth’s offer not because it’s the right thing to do, but because she thinks she doesn’t need it. Which is why once it becomes clear that Ladybug won’t be giving her the Bee Miraculous, she willing accepts akumatization.
But the real killer problem is that Sabrina is able to be akumatized into Miracular because of Chloé’s actions. When Lila’s fake Ladybug dance fails, Chloé takes it out on Sabrina, in a way that’s just, look, here’s the exact quote:
PLAY? With you!? Who are YOU anyway? You don't have any powers! You're a nobody! I'm a superheroine, okay? I'm Queen Bee! You and I have NOTHING in common! Go away!
That’s a horrible thing to say to someone, especially a friend! She explicitly ties Sabrina’s worth (or lack thereof) to having powers. And the real kicker? This is the last thing she does before the failed akumatization. Out of context, Chloé resisting akumatization might seem heroic. With this context? It’s anything but.
The Overdue Conclusion
Ultimately, a Redemption Arc is a narrative process for developing a character. It’s a trope, a storytelling pattern. The key element of such an arc is change. A static character cannot undergo a redemption arc (or indeed any arc), because the arc is the process of transformation, of becoming a better person. Not just on the surface, but in a fundamental way. A post redemption character is, in some ways, a different person to who they were before.
During seasons two and three of Miraculous Ladybug, Chloé does not change in such a way. She’s just as cruel and spiteful after becoming Queen Bee as she is before. She does bad things for bad reasons. Her motivation for being Queen Bee is entirely selfish. Indeed, while there is some feeling of a divide between Marinette and Ladybug, Queen Bee is simply Chloé with superpowers. And while she may be a victim of abuse from Audrey, that doesn’t mean she is excused from abusing others herself.
Chloé’s tragic flaw is her desire to be exceptional, in a way that places her above other people. This is why she fails to change. In the narrative of Miraculous Ladybug, the exceptional that matters is to be exceptionally kind, exceptionally couragous, exceptionally selfless. Character traits which Chloé displays sparingly and insufficently, because she believes she is above them. But without humility, there can be no change. Without change, there can no redemption. And while others might provide a catalyst for such a change, ultimately it must come from within.
The concluding point is that I still don’t think there was a Chloé Bourgeois Redemption Arc, but I can sort of see how you’d fall into thinking one existed. But when you actually examine the character’s behaviour, the illusion quickly crumbles. At this point, the whole thing has clearly taken on a life of its own beyond the source material, and is perhaps unstoppable. Will my long, somewhat rambly Tumblr post make much of a difference? Perhaps not.
But there are harmful ideas attached to it. As long as people try to make Marinette responsible for Chloé’s actions, it adds, however slightly, to the notion that the abused are responsible for the actions of their abusers. In many respects, I don’t care that strongly about these particular fictional characters. Yet other people do, and in doing so I see how they distort the role of victim and victimizer, and I care about that. I understand that it’s not a big serious issue, but it matters to me. So I’ll say my piece, and move on to other thoughts.
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gryficowa · 4 months
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Let's be honest, Marinette and the rest of the characters put more effort into trashing Chloe herself than into actually helping (And they still have the nerve to say they were trying to help when in reality all they said was "Be nice" and nothing else, it's a strong attempt to avoid making an effort to help, which the person needs)
Yes, I'm pissed, that's why there are so many posts, but seriously, the fandom still believes that the characters tried to help Chloe and it's all her fault because she didn't accept "Help", too bad it wasn't even help (This song fits so well)
youtube
Yes, I get annoyed with people in the fandom who say that the characters tried, it's bullshit, they didn't do anything to help her (And that's why they put more effort into destroying her than actually helping her), and empty words are things anyone can say
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xhanisai · 10 months
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You can talk about how much you enjoyed the film without bashing the show and you can talk about how much you love the show without bashing the films.
Of course, everyone has the right to voice their opinions and express that they disliked this or that.
But you look hella stupid when you're making ignorant takes and saying stuff like "omg astruc's writing is so shit lollllll love the film" or "the film gives us what WE want unlike the show lollll"
Both are different with their own sets of restrictions and budgets and having different creative teams and direction. The show is still ongoing and has not finished whilst the film can only rely on becoming a hit so that they can continue and flesh out the story in sequels.
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Why the "True Selves" Theory is Insulting
Image for a second that you have a friend who's a bit of a ditz. She's also fun, creative, and sweet. You enjoy being around her, but you've never seen her as more than a friend. Then, one day, a fire breaks out at an event that you and your friend are attending. Your lives are suddenly in mortal peril and the same goes for everyone around you because you can't find the exit. You think that you're going to die.
Then, suddenly, your friend transforms. Not in a magical way, it's just a personality shift, but it might as well be magical because it's like nothing you've ever seen! The ditziness is gone, replaced by laser focus and a take-charge attitude that has everyone following your friend without question. When all is said and done, everyone lives because of you friend. As it turns out, her tendency to get easily distracted means that she's a fantastic in-the-moment problem solver.
Going through that completely changes how you see this girl. You no longer just like her, no, you're now deeply in love with her. You tell a mutual friend about this and they laugh at you, then say, "Don't be silly, that wasn't really her! Her true self isn't that brave girl who saved your life! That was special circumstances that don't count. All that counts is the way she acts when there isn't a crisis going on. It doesn't matter that you've always liked her and enjoyed her company, if you didn't fall in love with based solely on her ditzy self, then you don't really love her."
Most people would call this mutual friend insane because of course going through crazy experiences changes the way we view people! Imagine if you had an allergic reaction and your significant other's reaction was to panic and run away, leaving you to die. You only live because you manage to grab your phone and call '911.' That would understandably lead many people to reassess if this is the person they want to spend their life with just like the opposite experience might make you see a person as a good life partner.
Marinette is Ladybug. She gets full credit for everything she's done in the suit and it's perfectly fine for Adrien to become attracted to her after he sees her in action. It doesn't mean that he only values her Ladybug side. He quite clearly cares for Marinette, he just hasn't seen her in the right light for him to fall in love. (And, if we're being frank, Marinette acts like Ladybug all the time when he's not around or when he is around, but a crisis is going on. She's really not that different from her alter ego.)
Along similar lines, Marinette isn't wrong for being drawn to Adrien's sweeter side more than his over-the-top jokey side. There's a reason why Glaciator ended with her blushing. Compare the end of Glaciator to the end of Origins and, yeah, same energy because - in that moment - Chat Noir was letting his Adrien side out by being more sincere and vulnerable, which are the things that Marinette values most in a romance and the things that he rarely shows while in the mask. It doesn't mean that she hates his jokey side, it's just not going to win her heart when Adrien's right there being sweet and sincere while Chat Noir hides his feelings behind a smile and a laugh.
In fact, it's pretty insulting to Adrien to say that someone shouldn't be attracted to his more vulnerable side. That his sincerity is worth less than his jokes. Almost as insulting as telling Marinette that her Ladybug side doesn't count and she should get no credit for being brave as that's not really her. Loving her only counts if a person falls in love while she's behaving in her most over-the-top, cringe, embarrassing way.
I don't know about you, but I would never want someone to hold me to that standard nor would I hold my significant other to that standard! It's perfectly normal to have things that you don't love about your significant other. In fact, I'd argue that part of the magic of a real, lasting romance is having someone who loves you even though you're not perfect. If you are looking for a partner who never annoys you or does something wrong, then you will never find happiness because that person does not exist.
Now that I've said all of that, I want to add that I do think that marichat, "love both sides" stories can be cute. It's just not One True Path to Real Love. It's totally fine if the square starts dating based on the things that they find attractive about each other and then just continue to be in love as they learn about the other side. If anything, that's normal. Learning about a person is what dating is all about! A good relationship is no different than a good friendship, you just get some bonus perks if you're into that kind of thing.
I'll also note that I'm not criticizing stories where Marinette feels like she's the "real" version and Ladybug is the fake because that's a really understandable thing to be nervous about. Tikki saying that shit? Hard no. Terrible mentoring.
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