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goldenkamuyhunting · 2 years

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Hello,

I hope you are well,

I would like to thank you for all your hard work, it's a great pleasure to read you every time, thank you very much 🙏

and excuse me for my English, it's really not very good.

I have some questions that remain in my head in relation to the manga, my little head can't manage the psychological complexity of the characters in the story 😂

So here it is, I didn't understand very well the relation between Ogata and the lieutenant tsurumi: in chapter 227 we can see the lieutenant tsurumi saying basically, that the most efficient solution to have good and loyal soldiers would be "love"

I interpreted it in the sense that this love is a form of deep admiration towards lieutenant tsurumi.

For koito, lieutenant tsurumi has been struggling to set up a whole false scenario so that koito sees him as a hero and admires him as such afterwards, which leads him to be totally devoted to this hero whom he admired and makes him a good loyal soldier (chapter 199)

For tsukishima, making him believe that his beloved was lost for good pushing him to be totally devoted to this new life that lieutenant tsurumi gave him as a form of repentance and become a good watchdog, he placed a curtain in front of his eyes taking him away from what he really wants ( to find the woman he loves) thus totally decreasing his fighting spirit to realize his real wish and abandoning the idea of finding her someday. lieutenant tsurumi once again cheated someone

For usami I don't really dwell on him, he's a bit of a zany lover 😂 ( I say this nottamantly in relation to that sperm battle scene in chapter 243 )as he's "in love", he's therefore logically quite devoted to lieutenant tsurumi, it's a thing that couldn't be questioned.

But for Ogata,

I find their relationship very complicated, at the beginning we are shown a meticulous Ogata, a fine strategist who doesn't let himself be manipulated as the others were, especially on the basis of this scene in chapter 103

(while tsurumi congratulates him for having killed his progenitor (I prefer to say progenitor because when you abandon your wife and child you have nothing of a father anymore) he insults him in his head showing clearly a form of disgust, and that he won't let himself be tricked)

So why trust lieutenant tsurumi all of a sudden? (In chapter 304 when he asks tsurumi to help him to reach his goal in the shadow to reach one day the title of his progenitor)

Isn't it a contradiction with the image we were given of the character at the beginning of the story?

Does Ogata see in tsurumi a kind of parental figure? (I wonder still in relation to chapter 304, where he tells the lieutenant tsurumi that he should have paid attention to what is really important: himself and not on the others)

I couldn't help but make the parallel with a child: every child asks for attention from his parent tell me if I'm doing wrong

In what way there is a "love" relationship quote in chapter 227 (Where he appears as the others)?

Sorry for this long pavement but it's so complex, it's been a while since I read the manga so everything is not fresh in my head it's possible I'm talking nonsense 😂

Thanks again

Have a nice day !!

Sorry for my late reply to your ask and thank you for enjoying my work!

Now, to your question...

Let’s start first with Tsurumi’s words.

In the story we see that ‘love’ is indeed a powerful motivation to push people to kill, even without Tsurumi’s meddling, in fact we go from Tanigaki who decides he’ll murder Kenkichi because he believed he murdered his beloved sister, Fumi, to Asirpa, who attempts to murder Ogata so that he won’t murder her crush, Sugimoto.

Tsurumi tried to use this fact to manipulate his soldiers into doing his bidding, sometimes gently, by making them love him (he saves Tsukishima from being condemned for parricide, pretends to have saved Koito, presents himself as a gentle and understanding father figure to Tanigaki when the latter confess to him his past, seems to support Nikaidou when he gets wounded), sometimes just by using their love for someone else as a mean to get what he wants (as Nikaidou wanted to murder Sugimoto in retaliation for murdering his beloved brother, Youhei, Tsurumi claimed he would allow him to do so if Nikaidou were to betray the other rebels, he blackmails Ariko and later, he’ll blackmail Tanigaki to help him in his plan threatening their loved ones, he used Sofia’s guilt for Fina and Olga’s death, to whom the woman felt affection, to get her to talk).

Now we all agree with how Tsurumi managed to gain Koito and Tsukishima’s loyalty. Usami is a bit of an odd case as, supposedly, Tsurumi didn’t mean to win his loyalty, he just discovered through Usami’s actions how love could push people to kill and then cultivated it by supporting Usami and covering up his murder of Tomoharu... but still the idea is clear enough, thanks to those huge flashbacks that clearly showed how Tsurumi won their love.

But, when we talk about Ogata, things became a lot less clear and chap 304 felt to many, myself included as I said in my meta for chap 304 and, like a retcon so yes, I share your disbelief on how Tsurumi supposedly won Ogata’s loyalty.

I guess this is a good moment to warn everyone who can’t stand to hear Noda’s work criticized that now it’s the moment they should either HIT THE BACK BUTTON or just CLOSE THIS TAB ON THEIR BROWSER and save themselves the trouble to read what they don’t want to hear.

The visual seems to imply Tsurumi won Ogata over (or believed he won Ogata over) with his promise, in chap 103, to raise him to a higher position in the 7th.

Of course the fact that Ogata thinks "oh you smooth talking bastard” back then seems to imply Ogata didn’t fall for Tsurumi’s promises.

The Japanese sentence is:

‘“Tarashi” me ga’

「たらし」めが

…and it caused quite a bit of discussion because although the English scanlations went with “Oh, you smooth-talking bastard…” other translated it as “You slick old man…” or “You won’t trick me, goddamn ruffian” while the anime went with “Goddamn seducer…”

If you’re curious ‘tarashi’ (たらし) is assumed to be 誑し, which means “cajolement”, “deception”, “seduction”. Anyway, whatever you pick, the idea seemed to be Ogata wasn’t falling for Tsurumi’s pretty words, which fitted with how, in Edogai’s house, he commented Tsurumi had a talent for using stupid clichés to get young men to follow him.

Now, I’ve nowhere near enough Japanese knowledge to say if those were mistranslations and Ogata, back then, meant the opposite and ‘“Tarashi” me ga’ was actually meant to be translated ‘I'm looking forward to it’ or something like that and translators got tricked by the lack of kanji usage.

I honestly let this discussion to people who knows Japanese better than me.

What I know is that chap 304 shows both scenes but cut from them the sentences that seemed to imply Ogata was aware Tsurumi wasn’t to be trusted.

In regard to the coach scene Noda didn’t just cut Ogata’s thoughts but added a couple of panels that seem to imply Tsurumi won Ogata over with his promises to make him rise in the ranks of the 7th.

So yeah, either we were working with mistranslations or Ogata believed Tsurumi’s promises trustworthy... and likely we’re meant to assume Tsurumi used them to win Ogata over from when he was around 14/15 since Noda said:

Q50: Tsukishima’s life was hinged on learning Russian. How did he do it? I’m curious about whether he went to classes or used study materials available in Japan, or had to learn on site. Noda: Russian knowledge was used merely as a pretext for the army so it’s not that he needed to learn it immediately. He started learning after getting out of prison, from Tsurumi and on site. Ogata was studying together with him, but he wasn’t as diligent about it as Tsukishima. ( Q&A section from the Golden Kamuy fanbook translation courtesy of @piduai)

...and this means that, since Ogata is born in 1882 and Tsukishima had to start studying Russian in order to get out of prison in 1996 (when Ogata was 14) and was in Russia in 1997 (when Ogata was 15), if the two of them learnt it together, Ogata started learning Russian from Tsurumi at either 14 or 15.

Noda though, never explained how Tsurumi and Ogata met, he just has him look as if Ogata was already in Tsurumi’s inner circle in 1901 (Tsurumi talks ill of Central in front of him, Usami and Tsukishima)

...and 1902 (Ogata takes part to Koito’s kidnapping)

So yeah, if Ogata was seduced by Tsurumi this took place much earlier than in the coach scene which takes place in 1906.

Butof course this comes with the fact that in 1901 Ogata was actually working as a spy for Central... which should imply he didn’t trust Tsurumi...

...who also didn’t prove himself to be reliable as a supporter with the whole Yuusaku mess in which Tsurumi implies to apprecciate Yuusaku more for his noble blood and wanted to withdraw his support to Ogata to give it to Yuusaku.

Back then my speculation was withhis actions he wanted to trigger Ogata into killing Yuusaku, same as Usami killed Tomoharu, but since back then Ogata didn’t seem obsessed with Tsurumi the way Usami was, the whole ploy was speculated to be something that reinforced Ogata’s idea Tsurumi wasn’t trustworthy. Instead Usami, in his obsession and hopeless jealousy was apparently right and Ogata was also obsessed with Tsurumi...

...and Usami becoming a tattler all of sudden caused Ogata to rebel (as we’ll see short later how Ogata collected around himself a small group of rebels)... which should explain this...

...Tsurumi becoming somehow a parallel to his mother figure (neglecting how Asirpa has been a parallel to Tome starting from Vol 9 in favour of paralleling her with Yuusaku, the only one who, according to Vol 31, loved Yuusaku, forgetting his grandparents)...but somehow all this doesn’t matter as on the train Ogata was willing to believe Tsurumi would do all he said and even let him have the land deed and remained behind to face Sugimoto... even if he actually had no means to insure Tsurumi’s loyalty (since Tsurumi has the land deed which Ogata was meant to hand to Central, the volume version implies Tsurumi sent the bear in Ogata’s direction effectively trapping Ogata between a bear and Sugimoto and distracting him giving Sugimoto the time to strike him and Tsurumi planned to leave him (and all his men) behind in fact, while Ogata fights with Sugimoto, Tsurumi brings weapons to the locomotive and then, once he’s settled, detatches it from the train.

And yeah, the fact that Ogata, who kept on insisting Tsurumi should never be trusted, all of sudden blindly trust Tsurumi, feels like a huge retcon.

I won’t even go into how chap 304 presented his goal as rise in the ranks so as to prove someone like him could do it felt, to me, like another retcon because otherwise this meta would be too long.

By my tone you might have noticed I find the whole idea that Ogata let himself be seduced by Tsurumi so shaky I view it as a retcon (unless we were working with mistranslations... in this case my opinion might have been completely wrong because relying on the wrong basis)... but yes, this is what “Golden Kamuy” asks you to believe in the end.

So yeah, if you’re feeling confuse about all this, rest assured you aren’t the only one. A good part of the fandom felt like in the last volume Ogata was turned into a character they didn’t recognize with 0 explanations on how this happened.

Sure, retroactively, accepting the retcons and with plenty of fantasy we could repaint the whole ofOgata’s story to fit vol 31 but honestly, I’m not interested in such work.

To retcon something at the last volume is a low blow for a reader.

If instead we’re working with mistranslations... well, that’s another matter but, in this case we’ll need better translations.

So, said all this, sorry if I couldn’t really help you to understand something that to me and many others didn’t feel like a natural progression in a character’s development but a retcon but with retcons there’s really little to do.

Either you accept them or don’t.

As far as I’m involved the Ogata of post Karafuto was mostly unnecessary to the plot and his retcon made him so uninteresting to the point I wish he died in Vol 19, where I could still care for his character.

It’s something I’ve been pretty vocal about also in my metas for chap 309 and 310 and something that deeply disappointed me (there were other things that didn’t sit well with me and of which I talked in my metas but this was litterally the last straw).

Anyway that’s me. I genuinely hope the whole issue with Ogata’s characterization taking another course didn’t ruin your enjoyment of the manga and thank you for your ask.

Sorry again if I couldn’t shed some light on the whole thing though.

#Ogata Hyakunosuke #Tsurumi Tokushirou #Tsukishima Hajime #Koito Otonoshin #Usami Tokishige #Nikaidou Kouhei #Nikaidou Youhei #Tanigaki Genjirou #Ask #Hanazawa Koujirou #Hanazawa Yuusaku #Ogata Tome #Bigjellyfishnerd #Other people's posts

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