#Pre Saiyan Saga

[tenshindon]

I was rewatching Res F and Tien has a line where he says "I didn't bring Yamcha and Chiaotzu, it's too dangerous for them." And I love that line cause it implies all 3 of em were together, probably watching a movie or some shit, when freiza showed up

they were all just casually chillin and then the fuckass space lizard showed up </3

[sweetescapeartist]

EXAMINING VEGETA'S TORTUROUS TRAINING OBSESSION

GRAVITY TRAINING OBSESSION:

Vegeta became so obsessed with gravity training solely because he heard that Goku did gravity training during his 6 day space treck to Planet Namek during the Freeza Saga.

Contrary to DBZ filler, 300G was apparently too much for Vegeta before he could turn SSJ. So, the filler of him training under 450G is out of question. I say so because what we are shown of Vegeta's training in the manga is that he can't even stand in what is presumed to be 300G. As often was the case for Vegeta in DBZ pre-development, his ego was too big.

In reality, Vegeta in the original material could barely stand 300G a little better than Yamcha could in inaccurate DBZ filler.

This is why we see Vegeta training at 150G rather than 300G after that point. He appears to be able to handle 150G in base well enough to get a good workout. But, it's very unlikely that base Vegeta can handle 300G. He needs to turn SSJ for that.

DBZ Buu Saga: 150G's as a SSJ when training with Trunks.

DBZ Buu Saga: Possibly 300G's or more as a SSJ when training alone. Likely 150G's or a bit higher when in his base form.

DBS Beerus Saga: 150G's in his base form. And afterwards, he was sweating & exhausted.

Gravity training is what Vegeta is shown doing almost all the time. He did gravity training during the 3 years preparing to fight the androids, then continued to does so for the 7 years between the Cell Saga & the Buu Saga of DBZ. And around 4 years after the Buu Saga into DBS, Vegeta was still doing gravity training. So, about 15 years of constant gravity training in total.

TORTUROUS TRAINING:

Goku points out that constantly doing intense training isn't good for the body. Both the narrator & Goku go as far as to call overdoing training as "TORTURE."

However, we're shown that Vegeta constantly tortures himself in an attempt to exploit his Zenkai-Boosts because he doesn't understand how to properly train.

When Vegeta wasn't spending most of his time torturing himself in the Gravity Room, then he'd "train" by standing motionless out in the wilderness without eating, drinking, or doing anything for days while he let the harsh elements take a toll on his body; torturing his body in order to make it stronger (which negatively affected his mind, factoring into why he often used to ignore & neglect his family if it didn't have anything to do with his training).

In DB Chapter 365, Vegeta flew off in a huff. Later, it says 2 days then 3 days pass. In DB Chapter 366, {DBZ episode 147 & DBK episode 71} Trunks said that Vegeta stood in one spot for the past 3 days. But, when looking at context clues, it is more likely that Vegeta stood there for 5 days in total & Trunks was just around for the last 3.

In DBS Episode 15 & 16, Vegeta still "trains" by standing motionless for many days (possibly even a week or so) in harsh & dangerous weather when he isn't in the Gravity Room. Then, Vegeta returns to Capsule Corp. afterwards to wash up, eat, gravity training, repeat.

DIMINISHED RESULTS:

Vegeta kept attempting to exploit his Zenkai-Boosts, BUT there are limits to Zenkai-Boosts. After a while, Zenkai-Boosts stop as shown in the Buu Saga when Gohan didn't get any stronger after Dende healed him. And Gohan had way more potential than what Vegeta had.

Despite getting stronger from torturous "training" in the Gravity Room & building his durability by standing in harsh weather, Vegeta's gains aren't as great as could be if he trained properly.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOKU & VEGETA:

Goku was a low-born outcast Saiyan raised as an Earthling martial artist who trained properly all his life to acquire his strength, becoming a prodigy. After barely managing to keep up with Vegeta during their first encounter, Goku managed to pull further ahead as time progressed due to knowing how to control his spiritual energy.

Vegeta is simply a natural born prodigy amongst Saiyans who only understood how to exploits his natural abilities for power in his attempt to be stronger than Goku again. Before begging Whis to train him, Vegeta had no teacher besides the bit of combat training he recieved as a child by Saiyans who don't know how to properly train.

This is why Vegeta's SSJ2 was significantly weaker than Goku's SSJ2 and he resorted to letting Babidi possess him just to catch up. Vegeta is in fact more gifted than Goku & he had trained harder, HOWEVER Goku knows how to train correctly to get stronger.

WHY KI CONTROL IS SO IMPORTANT:

Control of your ki is the best way to surpass your limits.

Just like all Saiyans before him, Vegeta mostly relied on his raw power & the Saiyan ability of physical transformation to surpass his limits rather than ki control. This is why Vegeta began falling behind Goku after their first battle.

And as Whis explained in DBS EP 16, Vegeta needed to learn ki control if he ever wanted to surpass Goku.

Once Vegeta learned advanced ki control from a godly being like Whis, he actually caught up to Goku's newfound power he acquired from becoming a SSG.

However, as shown in DBS EP 18, Vegeta STILL has the bad habit of over-training himself when he needs to be resting.

Meanwhile, Goku applied the Turtle School teachings of "resting well" & didn't torture himself unnecessarily.

Currently, in the timeframe of DBS: Super Hero, Vegeta has began to rest well & even began to meditate.

After about 20 years when he had his first serious battle on Earth, Vegeta is finally becoming a proper martial artists and going down the path of Budō.

EXTRA:

Vegeta's gravity training obsession was actually a Goku obsession. So, Vegeta training in the Gravity Room less in DBS is a sublte way to tell the viewer that he is becoming less obsessed with Goku & becoming more of an actual martial artist. However... He still trains almost all the time. It's just as Bulma & others like Freeza have said, Saiyans are battle-addicted.

I personally believe that Vegeta is physically stronger than Goku. One reason being that during the Buu Saga while base Goku trained with 8 tons on his body, base Vegeta trained in 150G which would make his entire body weigh 9 tons. However, Goku is far more adept when it comes to ki control & with using his ki to amplify his physical limits. Goku is also a much more skillful fighter due to his martial arts upbringing. DBS: Broly does a very job at highlighting the difference between how they fight. Vegeta was more about brute strength while Goku was more about skill.

Hypothetically, it's possible that Vegeta could turn SSJ3 now that he has trained under Whis, but such a stamina draining transformations is pointless since Vegeta has SSG & SSB. Also, Vegeta probably doesn't know how to transform into SSJ3 due to not needing it at this point.

Vegeta did have an outburst of anger when Beerus slapped Bulma, allowing his SSJ2 form to surpass Goku's SSJ3 form but, everyone gets a power boost through anger, even human characters. Krillin got one when Yamcha died & Tien got one when Chaozu died. It's not a Saiyan thing. It's a human emotion thing. And Vegeta becoming more "human" is what gave him this power boost. Well... that along with the fact that Babidi released Vegeta's potential beyond his normal limits which allowed him to reach greater hights than he normally could before. Also, the fact that Goku trained less when he came back to life because he began to work as a farmer. Meanwhile, Vegeta trained everyday & at times all day, allowing for Vegeta to gradually close the gap a bit between himself & Goku.

Vegeta stops abusing his body so much with gravity training in DBS. After he began training under Whis, the only instance I can recall of Vegeta training in the Gravity Room again was in DBS EP 51. (However, he & Goku do train in the Gravity Room together once in the DBS Manga Continuity after the Tournament of Power.) Instead, Vegeta began sparring more often. Training with Goku is beneficial to increasing both of their strength due to their Saiyan-Power (the natural Saiyan ability to grow stronger during battle). IF Vegeta & Goku still get Zenkai-Boosts, it's not very significant anymore. And the Zenkai-Boosts would apply for their current highest Saiyan form. But, Saiyan-Power is still a natural ability they still have to make them stronger.

[themattress]

Unpopular(?) Opinion Re:Dragon Ball

The Android / Cell Saga is the best story arc in Dragon Ball Z, if not all of Dragon Ball.

Having been revisiting the series lately due to Akira Toriyama's shocking and untimely death, and comparing the story arcs of DBZ in their manga, original anime and Kai forms, I feel like despite the Saiyan / Vegeta and Namek / Freeza Sagas being far more iconic worldwide, it's the Android / Cell Saga that came out best in all incarnations. First off, there's the pacing:

Saiyan / Vegeta: 48 Chapters Namek / Freeza: 87 Chapters Android / Cell: 91 Chapters

Saiyan / Vegeta: 35 Episodes Namek / Freeza: 72 Episodes Android / Cell: 77 Episodes

Saiyan / Vegeta: 16 Episodes Namek / Freeza: 38 Episodes Android / Cell: 44 Episodes

In all versions, this is the longest arc, and yet it's paced much better than the previous two.

The Saiyan / Vegeta Saga spent 30 of its 48 manga chapters dealing with Nappa and Vegeta on Earth; Raditz lasted just 10 and then only 8 were spent in preparation for Nappa and Vegeta's arrival. The original anime gave Raditz 5 episodes, 16 episodes for preparation, and 14 episodes for the big battle. For the former, it felt like the middle portion ran far too short which caused the end to drag on, whereas in the latter it's the reverse: the middle lasted far longer than it needed to as several episodes were spent on filler bullshit like a bug planet, a second Oozaru transformation for Gohan, fighting phony Saiyans inside a simulation room, or a backstory for the Saiyans and the destruction of their planet that ends up at complete odds with actual canon. Only Kai got it down right, with the first half (Raditz + preparation) and the second half (Nappa and Vegeta) both lasting 8 episodes, making it the ideal version.

The Namek / Freeza Saga has 27 chapters at the beginning where everyone goes to Namek and hunts for the Dragon Balls, 22 chapters at the middle where the Ginyu Force is the focal point, and finally 38 chapters at the end where we get the battle with Freeza. So yeah, the end section dragged on longer than it probably needed to. The anime is much worse: 23 episodes beginning, 16 episodes middle, and 33 episodes end, with a fair amount in each section being pure filler such as Fake Namek, zany Bulma shenanigans, or diversion after diversion during Goku's fight with Freeza. Once again, Kai is the most preferable version, as it again combines the beginning and middle into a first half and the end into a second half, both lasting 19 episodes, dividing the arc into pre-Porunga and post-Porunga sections.

Then we have the Android / Cell Saga. 30 chapters at the beginning where Dr. Gero and his androids are the central threat, 30 chapters at the middle where Cell emerges as the true villain and goes through his transformations, and 31 chapters at the end centered around the Cell Games....and the last of those two can essentially be considered one elongated epilogue chapter starring Future Trunks, meaning it's more like 30/30/30. The original anime's equivalent is 23 episodes, 25 episodes, and 29 episodes respectively - it's almost perfect, with the only flaw being the end section needlessly being dragged out by two episodes more than is needed (one where Hercule and two anime-exclusive students of his hog the spotlight even when the ultimate outcome of their antics is obvious and one where Cell inexplicably spends the entire length charging up his final Kamehameha). Kai makes the pace perfect again, with 14 episodes at the beginning, 14 at the middle, and 16 at the end, with the last two being the wrap-up and epilogue respectively following the main action against Cell.

Beyond the pacing, there's the content. Not only does this arc hold some of the most interesting and influential ideas (the existence of alternate timelines, Dr. Gero's scientific genius, Vegeta's character development, Piccolo and Kami becoming one again, the depths of Gohan's power, etc.) and not only did Toriyama and his editors fluke their way into a remarkable degree of consistency despite nothing having been pre-planned, but almost every character gets something important to do. In the previous arcs, you could count the important heroes on one hand: Goku, Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo, and the helpful comic relief (Yajirobe in the former, Bulma in the latter). They and the villains carried the arcs while everyone else were either a plot device (hi, King Kai!), sidelined, or made into cannon fodder. But here, in addition to now also having Vegeta and Future Trunks among the heroes, you get important and useful roles for not just those aforementioned characters but also Tien, Yamcha, Roshi, Dr. Brief, Kami, Dende, and even newcomer Hercule (poor Chi Chi and Chiaotzu, though).

And while the villains collectively don't quite measure up to the Freeza Empire in iconic status, they are still superbly designed and characterized, making them highly memorable. Cell himself has got to be the standout, being as good if not better a foe than Freeza. Let's just put it this way: once Goku went Super Saiyan, Freeza was done for, and his destructive tantrum that blew up Namek ultimately claimed no victims. With Cell, it looks like things are going the same way once Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2, but then his destructive tantrum that risks blowing up Earth actually does come at the cost of Goku's life! And then, Cell comes back, now as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan as he insta-kills Trunks, curb-stomps Vegeta, and breaks Gohan's arm before preparing to blow up Earth again, this time at no cost to himself! This was hands-down the biggest "Oh my God; holy shit; Game Over, man; there's no way out of this" situation in all of Dragon Ball, making the ensuing Kamehameha beam struggle where Gohan is guided by Goku's spirit all the more epic and satisfying. The anime and Kai made it even better, allowing Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Yamcha to keep on trying to help against Cell despite how futile it was, inspiring a despondent Vegeta to get back into the fray and providing his crucial assist blast. It takes all of the Z-Fighters to save the world.

So that's my take. This story arc is just....well, perfect.

[acoldsovereign]

CONNECTIONS & CONTINUNITY.

Maiz has one future-- one where she dies horrifically. Or, she used to have only one. Decisions taken fracture her true, 'original' ending. Now, she is either doomed to live out her own personal dark, bleak future or avoid it altogether (--or to varying degrees, anyway).

MAIN VERSE (Z to Super):

Maiz makes her debut appearance Pre/During the Cell Games. Some 'space' months after the events of Broly -- The Legendary Super Saiyan, she touches down on some unnamed planet for resources, and ends up finding a frozen corpse. At first she thinks about passing it over (and does), but one of her slaves-- a Kokytan, alerts her to a thought/'feeling' they picked up: 'Pain. It hurts.'

The corpse is NOT a corpse.

Curiosity gets the better of her and she decides to bring it back to her ship for further studying. Through testing, she finds out this is a Saiyan body and drops everything to tend to him. Nursing him back to health, Broly is canonically the first survivor she ever sees since the Genocide. This also is the first time in-story she displays altruistic behavior. They eventually bond over time and become friends of the murdering kind. (Broly mentioned here is Kuro's/ @gazelessmenagerie).

Between the Discovery/Recovery of Broly and the last arc of Z, seven years have passed. Maiz at some point returns to the far reaches of outer space to continue her business; maintaining and seeking expansion of her twelve planet-empire. She officially touches down on Earth, and takes issue with the shape of the Race therein; Earthlings. She finds their mortal shells (which are remarkably similar to Saiyans) as a serious affront to her, and makes it a point to punish them for it. The majority of her exploits in-story takes place near Buu Saga and onwards:

Encountering and fighting an alternate Future Gohan that survived 17 & 18 (@likeadragcn).

Encountering, fighting and crushing on Future Trunks (@hopefromadoomedtimeline) In one scenario, he's successful in killing her but falls himself some time later and goes to visit her in Hell with King Yemma's permission.

Encountering Goku Black, allying herself with him and befriending him (@roseplendence) Other things happen. Several things happen, one of which leads her to meet Hearts (@clairvoyantcubes ) .She ... dislikes Hearts.

Encountering, fighting and eventually becoming engaged to/later marrying Future Trunks. (@peoplcshope).

Encountering, antagonizing/instigating a fight with Adult!Gohan, and being a general menace to him because his reactions are funny. (@n3rdb0x).

Encountering Vegeta and slowly bonding with him over lost culture/befriending him, encountering Turles and teaching him the old variant of the Saiyan language, encountering Granolah and antagonizing him about his Saiyan trauma when she finds out about it (@dragvnsovl).

Encountering, trying to and FAILING to antagonize Son Goku but ends up fighting him anyway (@age736).

And so on.

NOTE: Some of the verses detailed above (like the one concerning Broly) may or may not share loose/soft continuity or commonalities with each other! For example:

Z ERA:

The Maiz that fights Future Gohan (in the present timeline) is similar to the one that antagonizes Present/Adult!Gohan. The point of canon divergence is her personality. The version of Maiz that fought his future variant was colder and harsher; she was new to the planet. In fact, this interaction is the origin story for why she despises and loathes humanity (and Earth) so much. Maiz is emotionally and physically aggressive, abrasive, and dismissive of all things not immediately entertaining or interesting to her. In the second scenario, she's visited the planet multiple times but still loathes it with a fiery passion. Present Gohan is unfortunately a victim that was in the wrong place at the wrong time as this version of Maiz has picked up the habit of choosing people (humans, specifically) at random to antagonize/'learn about'. Any and all curiosity she has surrounding Earthlings are malicious in nature.

The version of Maiz that crushes on Thane's Trunks is the one that finds out where Yusuke Urameshi (@thuganomxcs) lives by stalking him. Hilariously enough, it's the same, exact Maiz-- the condescension, the violence, the sadism, aggression and egotism. The only divergence is who she chooses (which affects how she develops). The verse where she's with Yusuke instead is a derivative of this one; she only targeted him because she found out he was an ally or friend and aimed to torture or kill him to get to Trunks. (In actuality, all Trunks did was a pick up job for him, begging the question of how exactly she came about this information in the first place).

Six months later after she failed to get a rise out of Yusuke via banter, her response was to burn his house down and kill sixteen people. When that failed, she resorted to physical violence, concluding he wasn't completely human, because his lack of 'proper' responses to her were odd. She was proven correct. With her new goal of torturing Yusuke in mind, she picked up an Earthling contact to teach her his native dialect. They're still heavily unhealthy towards each other five months later; she's eaten parts of his flesh and drank some of his blood. He encourages her behavior while teasing her (and recently gifted her some of his flesh willingly). Oddly enough, he thinks her violence and unwarranted aggression towards him is attractive whilst she's become accustomed to his voice. This is the first time in-story Maiz has developed any type of sexual masochism.**

**Maiz's budding lean towards verbal degradation applies to Yusuke, only.

Also Trunks, in-story, was the first person Maiz grew romantically attracted to since the Genocide. Her deeper feelings escape self-reflection initially but she's becoming aware something is wrong. They've been enemies ever since they laid eyes on each other, they've been fighting ever since-- and yet, at some point she's shown different sides of herself. A side that knows mercy, a side that knows when to give him a break, one that honors (or remembers) rest. A side that knows jokes and humor-- and gasp!-- she has a flirtatious aspect. A side that remembers Bardock. She does not like what's happening but subconsciously wants him to reciprocate and will not take things well if he doesn't. Their 'relationship', if it could be called that, is complicated by many things; Trunks' moral compass, Maiz's lack of transparency and control issues, miscommunication on both sides and the lack of understanding of who the other really is or could be under the right circumstances.

The tragedy of this romance (if not addressed) leads to a scenario where she dies by Trunks' hands after 11 months of fighting/meeting him. In that verse, they're finally able to make up and talk to each other normally but not at first; Maiz is despondent, reclusive, silent. It's . . . not pleasant to see. After six years of staring at nothing in Hell, she talks to him-- finally remembering how to speak. Even worse, she holds no remorse for all the lives and homes she's destroyed. Unbeknownst to her, this is now fine with him. He doesn't care-- he doesn't have to. He's dead and has no moral obligation to uphold anymore.

The Maiz that meets Goku at the End of Z is disconnected from all other storylines, as are the ones that antagonize Granolah, the Maiz that meets Vegeta and so on.

SUPER ERA:

Maiz is focused on figuring out the secrets of aging to prevent it. She's close to 70, and will start showing her chronical age/her body will start to decline when she hits her 90s or 100s.

This quest for cellular dominance brings her to Black's doorstep. Err, his backyard actually-- and at night. The two are rather cordial and polite all things considered. It's not hard to see why they get along so well so quickly. Seizing his chance to learn more about his body, Black assumes the identity of a "low class Saiyan who was sent off planet" to gain her trust. Fortunately, it works. He is unaware that Maiz is very accepting-- she doesn't once ask why his Super Saiyan state is pink nor why he's like that all the time. Like with Thane's Trunks, she just assumed he was an atypical Saiyan with strange traits. These two bond, and in-story, he's her first friend and confidant, as well as the first healthy relationship she ever has. The base is not violence but one of mutual understanding, respect and civility-- this is because she sought help for her issues when she first suspected something was wrong with her. At first she thought it was a heart issue and so, sought a doctor. Hearts was who she found. It was a heart issue, but not the one she thought. She returns to Black some time later and is glad their bond has not only stayed intact but has grown stronger. They continue their occasional killing sprees on other planets (which eventually crawls into a slow stop due to lack of challenges and other reasons), tea outings and other mundane and not-so-mundane activities. He learns he's capable of caring for someone in that manner and she learns emotional honesty and patience when it comes to him. He's not well-versed in relationships for a reason . . .

This version of Maiz and Trunks (played by Jay) starts off a lot more violently and suddenly. The Maiz depicted here and the relationship itself could be a considered an extreme canon divergence of the Z version. Trunks is post Super instead of Pre Super/Post-Dabura/Dabura Era. He's also a Time Patroller. Maiz doesn't go looking for him-- he brings the fight to her. He has to. If he does not, Earth dies in a cold/heated space war between Universes 6 and 7.

Further differences are: They do not meet on Earth but on other planets. She doesn't know him, doesn't take him seriously, nor does she want to get to know him. Dislike of the other is mutual and strong, so much so that Maiz actually is trying to kill him from the start and is surprised when he doesn't die. Trunks can heal himself to a great extent but he's no Dende. Regardless, Maiz is PISSED when she witnesses him do it in front of her. She breaks a couple of his ribs with a kick for being 'dishonest'. The fighting stretches out over eight months. Both parties are tired of the other and try to end things. Doesn't work, but names are exchanged finally. Maiz is annoyed but curious about him. Eleven months later, same thing-- he discloses he's a Saiyan and his occupation, but leaves out he's only half. She's confused by his moral alignment but welcomes the fight all the same. Less annoyed by him and more curious, Maiz learns in-story to fight up close instead of constantly flinging and hitting him away. He's gotten stronger and yet, Maiz has some sort of advantage-- she's older and more battle experienced than him. The gap IS starting to close, however. He can feel it. It's not until two years later that things come to a head. The full fruits of his labor show-- he's not getting launched or pushed away so easily, and he's able to withstand her cold. Without realizing it, she's trained and conditioned him to be a tank. She's become more analytical and ruthless as well, going as far as to actually look forward to their fights. This was supposed to be the last one because as fun as it was, she couldn't neglect her planets for the thrill of killing one man. It was supposed to be the end. So why did they did end up sleeping with each other in Earth's freezing Tundras? Because she saw Bardock in him.

[chelzawesomesauce]

tbh it fucking sucks that there's so much Super focus in the Sparking Zero roster The only characters that don't feature in their DBS designs are SSJ Grade 3 Trunks, A18, Saiyan Saga Vegeta, and Mr. Satan. Like, fuck, I know the BT games, 3 especially, are known for their literally-who picks but the fucking catgirl from the tournament of power?????? (Its been a while but I dont remember her at all from what I saw of the ToP, up to ep100 then i dropped DBS bc the nonstop fighting got too repetive, if she got more signifigant later feel free to send me death threats) The fact she got in before any pre-Z or movie characters rubs me the wrong way and all but confirms there's going to be a shit ton of sold-seperatley DLC character packs to fill in the intentionally placed gaps for representation of movie characters, GT, etc. Before they said fuck it and decided to not westernize the name I was thinking they might call the game Dragon Ball Super Budokai Tenkaichi and honestly it's not too late to rename it that lmao

[fanfic-lover-girl]

Hate at first sight for DBS

I watched the Battle of the Gods movie and I think I heard about Super but by then I think my interest in Dragonball was over. As far as I was concerned, GT was the finale and I was disconnected from Dragonball news.

I have learnt more about Super through Youtube clips and some reviews here and there. And I immediately hated it. I have never watched a full episode so these reasons are shallow but they are still mine.

TRUMAI! I only recently learnt about Future Trunks in DBS and I was so disgusted. That imposter is not Future Trunks. And whose hellish idea was to pair him with Mai! That's enough to make me curse this show. Doing my baby Trunks dirty like that. I mean GT Trunks was a total chad who had women swooning for him and they have Present Trunks crushing on a middle-aged joke character like Mai! Ugh!!!!

The ending of Future Trunks' story! The hell was that!? Super should have kept its crummy hands off Trunks! It's obvious that Trunks was just used for a cash grab.

Trunks and Goten's age. These kids should be (pre)teens by now, right? So why do they look like they are frozen in time as children?

I don't like Vegeta's outfit. Vegeta's clothing acts similar to Zuko's hair in ATLA. As Vegeta's development progresses, he loses more of his armour. I kind of liked that Vegeta wore completely Earthling clothes in GT. Vegeta wearing his Cell saga armour makes him look dorky and like he is trapped in his glory days or something.

Skinny characters. I hate the stick figure Universe 6 Saiyans. Talk about lazy designs.

Before his training, Gohan looked like a nerdy wimp. When I saw Gohan, I felt a bit disgusted honestly. The Gohan at the end of Z looked scholarly but he still had his muscular physique.

Animation style overall. I don't like it. The animation makes characters like Vegeta and Chi Chi look ugly. Bulma looks like a doll.

Apparently, people hate Kale and Caulifla but I don't know the characters so I can't comment. But for some reason, Kale transforming into a rip-off Broly for real almost made me gag. I don't know why I felt so repulsed.

Existence of Zeno. There are too many gods in DBZ!

Goku's character is tiresome. I have always appreciated Goku's simple character but even kid DB Goku was not so annoying to listen to. Why is Goku like this in Super?

Now there are some things that I have liked about Super.

Android 17 being fleshed out more

Pan is cute.

Krillin has a great family.

Heartfelt moments like Goku saying he will take Pan to the stars.

Goku and Goten bonding.

Future Trunks meeting Android 18 lol

Vegeta's speech to Future Trunks about him needing to be the best

Hercule giving Goku the 100M zeni (my respect for Mr. Satan shot through the roof in that scene, I can ALMOST forgive him for being a total fraud)

There are probably other moments that I have liked but they are not enough for me to give this show a chance. I don't care what Toriyama says. DBS will never be canon to me. I am just so upset that Future Trunks was paired with Mai. Now, if I want to read Future Trunks fanfic, I have to scrape through all that trash. Ugh!

[fandom-trash-xl]

The potential comedy in reviving Dragon Ball GT following the after-effects of Dragon Ball Super: The Black Star Dragon Ball Saga

Preface Notes: See my thoughts on nerfing Super's power escalation before the End of Z here. Ideas here follow the DBS anime's canon rather than the manga's.

I know that Dragon Ball GT is a point of mixed feelings for many a Dragon Ball fan and, while it clashes with the modern content that succeeded it, it was honestly just a fun and silly little time at points. Sure we talk about Super Saiyan 4 more than we do the series that spawned it, but GT isn't half bad.

I bounced around the idea of Dragon Ball GT possibly carrying on, but then there's the little quirks to canon that Super made that change things. Of course, we can very reasonably nerf the Saiyans back to the numbered Super Saiyans and that would consequently cut Beerus and Whis out of the picture, but there is one character in the cast that Super squeezed in...

A resurrected Frieza.

Okay, brief recap for those uninitiated: The Pilaf Gang (who would, with Super in play, be looking close to their adult selves again rather than GT's old, feeble, and sunspotted) sneaks onto the Lookout to find the secret Black Star Dragon Balls that reactivated once Piccolo and Kami became one again. Goku walks in on them after his training with Uub once they summon Ultimate Shenron, and Pilaf's poor wording leads to him accidentally wasting the wish on turning Goku back into a child. The Black Star Dragon Balls scatter across the galaxy and, if they are not regathered in a year, the Earth will be destroyed. The crew is meant to be comprised of Goku, Goten, and Trunks, but Goten misses take-off when he takes a phone call from his girlfriend and Pan sneaks aboard and preemptively hits the launch button.

With the journey through space to collect the scattered Dragon Balls, they're bound to eventually cross Frieza's neck of the galaxy. The emperor notices an unauthorized and unidentified spaceship, the Dragon Crew's, in his orbit so he tractor beams them in for interrogation.

"You'd better have a good explanation..."

"Hey Frieza!"

He recognizes that voice over the intercom- a bit more pre-pubescent-sounding than he recalls... He switches on video coms and sees the cam of the inside crew, noticing:

Goku, oddly small, but still, Goku

A purple-haired gentleman with a strong resemblance to the Super Saiyan that killed him

A NEW ONE that he already has a gut feeling he's not going to like AT ALL (and he is correct)

He sighs, grumbling as he rubs at the bridge of his nose. "Oh sweet cripes no..."

Against his better judgement, Frieza allows them aboard, to explain things more than anything else. At this point, the emperor and the Z Team are on iffy terms, a pinch of alliance rather than pure hatred (Vegeta's exempt from this) but not best buddies either. Goku, knowing that Frieza knows the cosmos the best out of all of them, tries to convince the lizard for some space favors and lend them a hand, but honestly he could care less.

"I am not your space GPS..."

Begrudgingly, he agrees to assist, but to keep it a challenging plotline, it's never when he's actually needed or comes with a caveat.

"If it'll help you that much... I can give you the security clearance code to get through that gate." (Cue the Dragon Crew getting absolutely demolished) "Ah, one little tidbit I forgot to mention, I didn't exactly tell them you were coming so you'll still be labelled as an intruder. My bad~!"

He'll just be sipping his wine a few stars away while they deal with Rilldo- we have to retain power scaling somehow. On the basis that we nerfed Goku and Vegeta before we got to GT, the villains would be more on par with this lowered level, but we can't exactly nerf Frieza, who is already decently powerful in base Final Form and is likely not giving up Golden either. So, Frieza can't step into any of these fights- not that he'd care, it's none of his concern and this doesn't affect him at all.

Bonus concept but there is an opening for potential Kuriza in this scenario! I mean, we have Pan and Bulla in this part of the series, why not round out the trio? My "The Small and the Shiny" one-shot wouldn't be canon to this, so this would end up being Pan and Kuriza's first encounter.

As Goku and Frieza make discussion, shy Kuriza (Frieza not even addressing him without prompting) attempts to slink away unnoticed until he accidentally locks eyes with Pan. She gives him a little wave and the little lizard silently panics.

BONUS GAGS:

Frieza's height complex

Frieza takes a silent pride in being the tallest one in the room- at least until Trunks stands up at full extension. He'll at least take the fact that he now towers over Goku height-wise. In fact, he might as well also take the fact that Kuriza is taller than Goku now... albeit only by a few centimeters but it counts!

Frieza becoming the ultimate cutaway gag

Frieza makes appearances as tiny cutaway gags, especially in intense fights where he could be helping but he's not because a.) plot-convenient power scaling retention and b.) he just can't be bothered to care or even notice.

Goku: (being absolutely curb stomped) Man, he's strong! I wish Frieza was here, he'd be a real big help right about now! (Cut to Frieza's ship where he's just trying to enjoy dinner with wine) Frieza: (sneezes) Kuriza: Something wrong, Papa? Frieza: Oh, it's nothing, Kuri. I just thought I heard someone calling my name. Kuriza: I didn't hear anything... Frieza: Ah, very well. I suppose it wouldn't be that important regardless~ (Cut back to the carnage)

[cyberkevvideo]

The Dragon Ball Z TTRPG -- Yes, an Official One Does Exist

Before I go into the game itself, I want to talk about the creator of the franchise.

Yesterday, the world learned of the loss of the great Akira Toriyama. He was so incredibly influential to so many of us, and like many others, I was absolutely gutted by the tragic news. He was far too young.

Dragon Ball was a big part of my life growing up, and it's what helped me create bonds with so many people who became good friends. Other people online have written poetically about how much each of his series and creations have touched their hearts, and I don't know that I can do the same justice. I'm not wordy like that.

I grew up during the start of the NES era so I knew about Dragon Quest, but at the time I had no idea that the iconic character and monster designs were thanks to him. When the SNES came out and Chrono Trigger was released, I immediately recognized the style of art. Dragon Quest VIII is still my favourite, if only because it's cool to see the characters go pseudo-super saiyan. In 1995, the original dub of Dragon Ball hit airways here, and a few months later Dragon Ball Z was released. It was surreal to watch kid Goku and adult Goku every week, simultaneously. Seeing the flying nimbus, but not seeing the Power Pole, and not knowing who Piccolo or Krillin were, but recognizing Master Roshi and Bulma, and finding out Goku was an alien the whole time. It was jarring at times, but seeing references to each series like the Kamehameha Wave and capsules, helped. Then there were all the Budokai games for PS2. I practically broke my dual-shock controllers trying to win those beam battles.

This is going to get long, so I'll put a separation bar here.

When the internet finally came out publicly and schools had access, I looked up Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball, discovered what anime was, learned of Akira Toriyama and how he had a comedy series called Dr. Slump, that the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z anime were considered separate stories, but the manga kept it as Dragon Ball, etc.

Heck, when the cards came out, I was one of the first people to buy Ani-Mayhem's DBZ set.

What's really great to see is people discovering the Dragon Ball manga for the first time, hearing their thoughts on YouTube videos (namely Merphy and TotallyNotMark), and how original and groundbreaking the fight choreography is compared to others series, and how much his style has influenced current day shounen manga. And that doesn't even include how Team Four Star and DBZA has influenced people.

But, let's get into the rest of this post.

When the TTRPG came out in 1999, DBZ was such a phenomenon that our local bookstore was having trouble keeping it in stock. My gaming group ended up having to pre-pay for a copy of the TTPRG. DBZ: The Anime Adventure Game from R. Talsorian Games was a little rough around the edges when it came to balance, and how powering up worked compared to the series, especially when that system was revised in the Frieza saga book. Still, it was nothing any of us had experienced before. Up until that point, we had done AD&D, Rifts, Toon, Shadowrun, and Marvel Super Heroes.

The person who usually ran the games, ended up being the GM and we did two campaigns. I had an absolute blast. Unfortunately, I was kind of alone in that. The TTRPG doesn't leave a lot for social interaction, which a number of our players preferred doing. This is closer to a war game. As such, we never played the game system again after the two campaigns. In fact, we never even finished the second one. I still picked up all three books as they came out though, and the GM from that group still has his original Saiyan Saga book.

The first thing that made me happy, as I didn't have nearly the dice collection I do now, was all you needed were 6-sided dice. That made my life so much easier, and for the Shadowrun players, they had tubs of d6 ready to use.

When it came to the contents of the book, what I really enjoyed was seeing all the power levels, and the character art.

These power levels updated with each book, and the lore and special abilities would also update.

If you kept the game to Dragon Ball levels, you felt that you could keep the campaign going for a very long time. The character sheet was extremely simple, and there were tips on what you could build a campaign around, as well as basic suggestions on trying to keep the "main character" complex to a minimum. The Star Wars RPG systems have a similar concept where the GM is told that either everyone's a Jedi, or no one's a Jedi. Same thing for ewoks since they were so limited for weapon proficiencies (they literally could never learn how to use tech, ever, which I find ridiculous). Basically, for Dragon Ball, namekians should look at fushions to power up, or everyone should be a saiyan or half-saiyan, especially if you're bringing in the super saiyan transformation. Otherwise, no saiyans in the game at all. This way everyone stays about the same level and can't be a spotlight hog while everyone else is forced to sit back and watch the game instead of participate.

If you'd like to read a full review of it, you can check one out here. Barnabas did a great write-up.

Personally, I find it kind of wild that there's literally zero stats for dinosaurs or other prehistoric animals. Where's the T-Rex and sabertooth tiger? This feels like a massive oversight given that people live alongside dinosaurs and other extinct-in-our-world beasts.

Overall, it was original in what it tried to accomplish, and I appreciate that. We've since seen other game systems that can replicate this fairly well. I prefer BESM (Big Eyes, Small Mouth), and any edition works, but I know others really enjoy doing DBZ using FATE, which I can see working. I've seen people try to pull off DBZ characters using 3.5e, Pathfinder 1e and 2e, and 5e, but you'd need to homebrew your own class from the ground up, and it likely wouldn't be balanced. At best, you could maybe get something close with a 20th level character.

If you find a copy somewhere, I definitely recommend it for a one-shot, if nothing else. Maybe you can run it at a convention. I'm considering doing that. It'd be a nice send off. And this year's convention is dinosaur themed, so maybe I'll have the mission be to teach a dinosaur how to ride a ball.

In closing, I'm so grateful to Akira Toriyama for giving us the stories and designs that he did. I can not convey in words just how important the Dragon Ball franchise was for my friends and I to even have met one another, and then Chrono Trigger brought us even closer and we'd go to one friend's house every lunch (he lived across the street from school) and we'd watch him play because we were so immersed in the story and with the characters...

So much respect and admiration for him. Akira Toriyama, thank you for everything. In Eiichiro Oda (One Piece mangaka)'s words: "I wish that heaven is as jolly of a world as the one you imagined and drew."

[duhragonball]

Dragon Ball Super Manga ch.4-9

So now that we’ve wrapped up the U6/U7 tournament, let’s go back to the manga and see Toyotaro’s version.  I don’t want to get too bogged down with this, so the idea here is to just highlight the differences from the anime. 

For openers, the tournament arena is very different, and I like this one a lot better.  The ancient Egyptian aesthetic seems a lot closer to Beerus and Champa’s style, and it just looks cooler than the anime version.  Most importantly, I’m glad Toyotaro skipped those giant portraits of Beerus and Champa.  Those looked ridiculous. 

For the most part, the manga sticks to the same plot as the anime, but Toyotaro leads off with a scene that sets up those big heavy training clothes Goku and Vegeta were wearing in Episode 28.  We see them sparring on Beerus’ planet, when Vegeta gets cornered and transforms, probably for the sake of introducing the form to any readers who hadn’t seen it in Resurrection F.  Goku cries foul, since they had agreed to fight in base form, so he transforms as well, and then he bites his tongue while trying to say the name “Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.” 

Then Whis shows up and suggests “Super Saiyan Blue”, since it’s easier to say.  He scolds the boys for transforming at all, and then he makes them wear the heavy training clothes as punishment.

The story I had heard was that Toei and Shueisha had trademarked the name “Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan”, and so they continued to use it on official merchandise, long after “Super Saiyan Blue” caught on.  This manga chapter might be the first official acknowledgement of the shorter name.  Vegeta uses it in the anime while showing it off to Cabba, but I’m pretty sure that aired later. 

We also get a flashback to explain how and why Beerus and Champa exchange delicacies whenever they meet.  Long ago, they got into a fight over their birthday cake, and it got out of hand, so Whis and Vados had to restrain them.  Whis suggested they just settle their arguments with food instead of fists, and here we are. 

Here’s the scene where Bulma calls Tights.  Nothing too different here, although I think we get a better view of Professor Omori’s island.  There’s a second pair of shoes here, and a cigarette in the ash tray, and a magazine laying there in the same spot where Omori sat in Jaco chapter 1.  Is Toyotaro implying that Omori still lives here?  He’d be over 100 years old if he is.  Or maybe this is meant to be a reference, like Tights’ Jaco-based novel lying on her table. 

Moving on, for some reason Pilaf, Mai, and Shu are with the main cast as they travel from Universe 7 to the Planet With No Name.  I’m pretty sure this is their only appearance in the entire storyline, and we never find out how they got invited to this little shindig. 

Along the way, the gang plays a word game to pass the time. 

Nice shot of the U6 team, for what it’s worth.

For the pre-tournament exam, Toyotaro changes things up by having Majin Buu fail the test.  Remember, in the anime, he just fell asleep, so I’m pretty sure he just didn’t finish taking the test at all.  Goku also lets us know that he nearly got disqualified as well.  

The fights play out basically the same.  Toyotaro does include a bit where Krillin is relieved that Frost didn’t bust out the 2nd Form.  As a completionist, I appreciate this chance to see all of Frost’s forms represented. 

And volume 1 of the manga collection has a bonus comic revealing how King Kai recovered his planet after it was destroyed by Cell.  At some point, he summoned Moori from New Namek to use the Namekian Dragon Balls.  I’m not sure why Moori couldn’t just make the wish from New Namek, but oh well. 

I was going to ask how Moori made it up here, but he is the Kami of New Namek, just as Guru was the Kami of the original Namek, and back in the Saiyans Saga, we saw that Kami could travel back and forth between the living world and the otherworld.  So I guess that checks out.

Anyway, King Kai starts to consider making some improvements to his planet, but before he can make his wish, Goku shows up and tells Porunga to rebuild the planet just like it was before.  Apparently Goku’s worried that King Kai’s modifications would make it unsuitable as a training ground for Goku.  

The plot hole in all of this is that Poruna grants three wishes, and yet when Goku makes his, Moori packs up the inert Dragon Balls and takes his leave.  And maybe they had made two other wishes prior to this scene, but you’d think King Kai would have used them to wish himself and Bubbles back to life.  Also, if it’s this easy to get the Namekian Dragon up here to make wishes, then why doesn’t King Kai just do this again 130 days later?  He keeps complaining about how Goku forgets to resurrect him, but he doesn’t need Goku for that, does he?

And that’ll do for now.  I’ll be back with the next few chapters to close out this saga.

[dbfandom]

hey! just wondering, do you know what was doujin scene was like for db in its early history? like before Z started airing/the saiyan saga started getting published? what characters were most popular, what dynamics were getting written about, what the tone of works was, if it even had a convention presence at all etc. thank you!

Kami fucking Dende you're asking me to go back to pre-1988 lmaooo I'm a good archeologist bue that's woah. You guys know I'm old, but not that old right?!

(Reminder that the chapter in which Vegeta kills Cui on Namek came out in the Weekly Shonen Jump just before the Berlin wall fell)

So I did some digging to find stuff published before 1990 to have a glance at what existed, some stuff did make it to online catalogues, and truth is that the scene was still in its infancy back then, especially for a gag shonen that didn't have many pairing options. The doujin scene truly went big from 1996 onwards (aka when the Comiket moved to a larger exposition center).

Even Orange Juice 2 which came out in July 89 still has Raditz stuff in it...

This was drawn by Junya Furusawa (pen name Furujun) by the way, who was a big GoChi doujin guy.. He later did a looooot of promo art. Some of which you may know ;-) He kept doing fanart for his own enjoyment though. (in order: GoChi stuff from 91 and two promo arts he did for Toei/Shueisha)

(We owe this guy a lot, F in the chat please)

Anyway back to the 80s.

I surprisingly found someone who did a lot of Tenshinhan & Chiaotzu (Chaozu) stuff back then. And I do mean & and not / eh xD

Here's the thing; I believe those who were active 35 years ago probably moved on to other projects and left their doujin years behind them; it's kind of like your party days in your 20s, they use pen names and the stuff they created quietly falls in oblivion... If they made it to the pro-world of mangakas and assistants. Even more so if they made it to the corporate "proper job" world!

I will ask though, just in case something appears!

Thanks for the question!

[lesvegas]

What would dbz look like in the bugsnax universe. Or vice versa

if the saiyans pre-genocide discovered bugsnax theyd succumb to them long before freeza ever got around to dealing with them

beerus would also succumb to bugsnax and i dont know enough about gods of destruction to tell you what would happen after that

namekians, who only need water, would straight up outlast every other race if bugsnax started travelling to other planets

that being said i think gohan would refuse to eat them at all, even before he figures out what they really are (because hes a nerd)

other non-namekians that probably wouldnt eat bugsnax imo: krillin, android 17, android 16, future trunks, bulma, tenshinhan, chaotzu, cell

vegeta wouldnt eat bugsnax at first until goku goes ham and eats as many as possible because no one would/could stop him. vegeta would want in after that

if a saiyan with a tail ate a bugsnak that turned their tail into food then their tail would no longer be a weakness in a fight

the second theres a myth about bugsnax making you stronger literally everyone would be trying to devour as many as possible. freeza would eat the most

if calories of bugsnax = power levels (and if power levels werent bullshit) then the most powerful bugsnax would be cheddaboardle rex (2,132,000), daddy cakelegs (1,344,000), mothzasupreme (1,008,000), megamaki (952,000) and pielobite (402,400). Considering these are all bosses, I'm inclined to believe calories are kind of an indicator for power

this means that each of these boss bugs could possibly beat goku in a fight up until the freeza saga. when goku is fighting captain ginyu he uses the kaio-ken x2 and reaches a power level of 180,000. however, after he recovers from this fight, his power level increases immensely to 3,000,000, vastly outdoing even the cheddaboardle rex in terms of raw power

this wont make sense unless you know how bugsnax ends but any planet with bugsnax on em would start out being worth a lot until the truth about them is uncovered, driving the value of any planet with them into the ground. freeza could make bank on bugsnax-infested planets for a short period of time until finding a planet with them is like a human landlord buying a building already infested with rats and roaches and bedbugs all at once

a new super saiyan transformation drops called super saiyan snak. gokus hair is rainbow now

i literally cannot comprehend bugsnax in toriyama's style or dbz in the bugsnax style but i would still like to see it

[thevindicativevordan]

Comics this week?

Superman #3 - Williamson manages to land the plane. Livewire continues to be a delight, so much so that I want Williamson to give her an arc of her own ASAP. Complaints that Supes and Lex found a solution a little too easy - and nothing major was done with Parasite Superman - aren't illegitimate gripes, but this arc nailed the feeling of a DCAU episode that Williamson was aiming for. Currently doing a rewatch of the DCAU, and Supes/Bats always are able to whip up a quick solution with SCIENCE. I do wish this arc had gone an issue longer and we got more scenes with Parasite himself because he was barely in it. Williamson has said Parasite will keep showing up in upcoming issues just like Livewire, I want more character exploration of who Parasite is beyond "he wants to eat everything". This arc did do a good job of establishing him as a legit threat, just need Williamson to build more on that. Scene of Clark and Lois at the end dancing in mid-air was perfect, Bendis did that at the end of his run and I hope it becomes a reoccurring thing for those two.

Superboy: Man of Tomorrow #1 - Porter and Lindsay nailed the Dragon Ball influence they were going for. We get cocky Kon kicking ass with his TTK in outer space and it rules. Lindsay depicts Kon's TTK in a similar fashion to the ki attacks of Dragon Ball and it's awesome! The Dominator Kon is up against has Freeza's color scheme in case the influence went completely over your head, and he's even committing atrocities out of petty greed which is Freeza's pre-Goku MO. Painful to compare how enjoyable this is compared to what has been done with Jon. Bit disappointed that Miss Martian isn't a member of the Cosmoteers, was hoping she would be a secret member, but it's good to have Superboy on a team that isn't all legacies. If this is supposed to be Conner's "Freeza Saga" he better get his own equivalent to Super Saiyan by the end!

Nightwing #103 - Computer in hell being full of malware and popups because it's hell got a laugh from me. Otherwise I need to rant a bit. Why does Taylor constantly undercut his villains? He's chosen to do an arc with Neron as the big bad, he wants us to care about the fate of this girl and be afraid that Neron will get her soul and corrupt Nightwing... but he constantly makes Neron out to be a joke. Blaze mocks him to his face that he's letting kids make a fool out of him, and while yes he does deck her for it, she's still right! Why call attention to that? Clearly this is just filler to give Redondo a break, but there's no need to rub it in the reader's face that we're stuck reading a loser flail ineptly while Nightwing and friends effortlessly overcome everything he throws at them. Ending falls flat because there's not a chance in hell that Dick is even going to consider taking Neron's offer.

Batman/Superman: World's Finest #14 - First issue of the series that I didn't love. Not a huge Metamorpho fan, and any cliffhanger that ends with "Superman is exposed to Kryptonite!" just gets an eyeroll from me. Need Waid to spice this arc up with another twist the way Boy Thunder was, because this isn't gripping me.

Nightcrawlers #3 - Spurrier broke the hot streak of SoS finally piquing my interest in the final issues. Bunch of plot turns happen that should wow me, instead leave me mostly indifferent. Good luck to Gillen with wrapping this event up next week.

[sweetescapeartist]

SUPER SAIYAN 2 HAIR COMPARISON

This post is mainly made to show that Trunks' SSJ2 hair is different from Gohan's SSJ2 hair. Many expected it to resemble Gohan's SSJ2 hair, but each individual Saiyan's SSJ2 hair is different from the other.

Gohan's SSJ2 hair is sharper with 1 single bang without stray hair strands.

Goku's SSJ2 hair is spikier & his bangs get sharper.

Vegeta's SSJ2 hair is spikier.

Trunks' SSJ2 hair is sharper with no stray hair strands.

SON GOHAN (PRE-TEEN):

Base - SSJ - SSJ2

SON GOHAN (ADOLESCENT):

Base - SSJ - SSJ2

SON GOKU:

Base - SSJ - SSJ2

VEGETA:

Base - SSJ - SSJ2

TRUNKS (ADULT):

The DBS Anime Continuity based Trunks' SSJ2 hairstyle off of his first SSJ appearance in DBZ. Meanwhile, the DBS Manga Continuity based Trunks' SSJ2 hairstyle off of his last SSJ appearance in DBZ.

Base - SSJ - SSJ2 (DBS Anime)

Base - SSJ - SSJ2 (DBS Manga)

+ TRUNKS (ADOLESCENT):

Trunks' hairstyle changed multiple times which resulted in the change of appearance for his SSJ hair.

BOWL CUT: Base - SSJ

PONYTAIL: Base - SSJ

LONG HAIR: Base - SSJ

BOWL CUT (end of Cell Saga): Base - SSJ

[themattress]

Dragon Ball Retcons: The Lucky Streak

When the late, great Akira Toriyama first began work on Dragon Ball, it was a gag-flavored spoof on the legend of the classic Japanese novel Journey to the West. It was only toward the end of that initial story arc that Toriyama began to add an element of seriousness with Goku's transformation into an Oozaru. After this event, Oolong asks "So is Goku some kind of alien or something?", setting the stage for perhaps the luckiest streak of retcons from a writer who is clearly just making everything up as he goes along ever. By which I mean, retcons that were clearly never a pre-planned intention and yet somehow fit in so seamlessly that you could swear otherwise. Obviously, Toriyama eventually decided to retcon that Goku was, in fact, an alien. But with that throwaway line from Oolong, it now feels long foreshadowed!

The other examples:

- The Red Ribbon Army was the first serious villainous force that Goku faced, being full of dangerous high-tech gadgetry and robotics. However, the joke twist ended up being that its leader, Commander Red, was just some rich idiot with a Napoleon complex who wanted to use the Dragon Balls to wish himself taller and then go on to conquer the world, as opposed to simply using the Dragon Balls to wish for world domination. At the time, all of those technological threats were just a means to an end, a build-up to a punchline, and nothing more. But later, Toriyama decided that it was a super genius named Dr. Gero who was behind all of that stuff, and since Goku brought it all down he'd have more reason than anyone else in the Red Ribbon Army to hate him, causing him to seek vengeance through the creation of the Androids and Cell. And it totally tracks! The reason an organization led by a joke villain still felt so serious as a threat was because its weaponry was engineered by a serious villain, and that villain returning to ultimately cost Goku his life via a creation that blends the cells of Goku, his friends and his foes feels like a natural full circle accumulation for the story.

- Mercenary Tao actually managed to defeat Goku with a technique called the Dodonpa. At the time, it was just a cool and unexpected way to finish a fight and cement Tao as a formidable opponent. But later, Toriyama decided to bring in the Crane Hermit school of martial arts which lends its teachings to the mercenary lifestyle, which is how we get Tienshinhan. Now it looks like Tao was deliberate foreshadowing of this new three-eyed foe turned mainstay ally of Goku's even though Toriyama hadn't thought him up back then.

- Piccolo and Kami were both green with pointy ears and antennas, looking more like aliens than demon and deity respectively. And per Toriyama's own admission, he hadn't planned them as aliens until it came time for them to face off in the 23rd Budokai. That's when he decided they were actually aliens and decided to foreshadow it with a talk between them spoken entirely in an unknown language, which turned out to be the native language of the Namekians - something that would become a pivotal plot point during the Freeza Saga.

- The Saiyans (Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta) all wore a distinct spiked battle armor, had energy scouters over their eyes, and traveled in spherical space pods. Later, Toriyama retconned it so that these motifs were all part of Freeza's empire and not the Saiyans. This would not have felt natural....had Toriyama not also made the pivotal change in plans of leaving Vegeta alive at the end of his battle with Goku on Earth. Because the Saiyans' leader is still in the story, we get to clearly see his interactions and dynamics with Freeza and his empire, totally selling us the notion that this was how it always was; that he and his comrades were always serving in that empire while also scheming to overthrow it someday. It made perfect sense.

- Similarly, the remark Raditz gave about the Saiyans' home planet being destroyed by a comet was later retconned into being a lie by Freeza, who actually destroyed the planet. Once again this ended up feeling perfectly natural, because so much of Freeza's character via the still living Vegeta was the tight grip he preferred to have on the Saiyans lest they become a threat to him. So it tracks that he would decide to reduce the number of Saiyans in existence to make this easier and hopefully make a Super Saiyan arising less likely.

- Vegeta in general was pure happenstance somehow producing one of the best developed characters in the series. Instead of the throwaway arc villain he was created to be, he survived to be a great secondary villain turned ally through necessity in the Freeza Saga, where he met his tear-jerking demise....except even that wasn't to last despite originally being the intention, as his popularity caused Toriyama to resurrect him after Goku had become a Super Saiyan, creating the perfect segue into him shifting into more of a rival whose primary objective was to surpass Goku in strength. Selfish, but not villainous. And it just kept going from there, to the point where in the chapter where the decision to spare Vegeta in-universe and out of it was made, Krillin's vocal disbelief of the notion Vegeta will ever turn over a new leaf like Piccolo ends up feeling like foreshadowing that he would.

- There's also the whole Super Saiyan concept and how it seamlessly plays into the way Goku has always come back stronger after every defeat. The way his transformation happens is also steeped in dramatic irony that makes sense for the story: it isn't his strength or love for fighting that does it, but his Earth-bred compassion for his human friend Krillin.

- On that note, Gohan's hidden power. This was set up early into Gohan's time as a character, but it wasn't supposed to be specifically tied to anything. But in the Android Saga, Gohan ends up as the one most likely to fully transcend the level of Super Saiyan due to that hidden power of his. It now feels like this was always the logical end route for that plot thread even when Toriyama hadn't even thought up regular Super Saiyans yet when he started it.

- Last but not least, the Android Saga in general. This whole story was Toriyama and his editors winging it from beginning to end, and the finished product is something that flows so smoothly you'd swear it was pre-planned. Of course Androids 19 and 20 weren't the actual Androids that Trunks warned about! Of course Androids 17 and 18 were ultimately going to be redeemed villains! Of course Cell was designed to transform through the absorption of 17 and 18! Of course past elements like Dende, the Budokai tournament and Bulma being a tech genius were going to be incredibly important! Of course the story would end with the flaws Cell exploited in others being exploited in him, Gohan's power to be as much of a hindrance as a help, Goku sacrificing his life, Cell coming back even more powerful, Vegeta finally displaying actual love and humility and self-reflection, and Gohan defeating Cell by blasting him with the most powerful Kamehameha ever...one-handed! It all feels so organic both in itself and in context to the wider series! Yet Toriyama totally stumbled his way into it.

It really was impressive. Sadly, all good things must come to an end, and Toriyama never really captured that same magic afterward. Most of the retcons made in the Buu Saga, all of Dragon Ball Super, and the canonically licensed video games just feel so much more obvious and clunky. Some of them still feel sensible - Hercule's development and connection made to Goku's family, the existence of the Kaioshins, a space between time where one can intersect with the unlimited timelines...those all make sense given what has come before. But stuff like new Super Saiyan forms from Super Saiyan 3 and onward, Goten and Trunks being prodigious enough to master Super Saiyan and (when fused) Super Saiyan 3 as children, the kind of increasingly nonsensical abilities that Buu has, Beerus being the one to commission the destruction of Planet Vegeta, all of these parallel universes, Goku Black, Future Mai, Zeno, Broly and Paragus, randomly existing relatives of Commander Red and Dr. Gero, much of what goes on in the Super manga and Dragon Ball Heroes game...it's all a bunch of nonsense that truly feels as pulled out of Toriyama and his collaborators' asses as it is.

I still love the Dragon Ball franchise and even have fun with the stuff I just listed, but man, that period between when it started and when the Android Saga ended can't be topped.

[fourcolour-ace]

Non-Combatant Gohan DBZ AU #2

Being a Gohan-centric au, naturally we need a post devoted to the boy himself.

Stay tuned for everything you never knew you needed to know about the normalest boy ever.

Gohan the Normal Boy

Now obviously I'm kidding a little bit, as even the most average of upbringings has its quirks and there's only so much attending public school can iron out. Being half-alien is a notable one. But attended-public-school Gohan has about an OG DB weirdness threshold. He's cool with having a monkey's tail and not being allowed to look at the moon. Having super strength is awkward but not unmanageable. But once you get into the whole "people can fly" thing you start to lose him. He's more open to it than Videl, but only because he knows some people are aliens. Humans flying is a little less believable.

Gohan spent the first seven or so years of his life around Mt. Paozu and the Son family house. Goku was absent for much of this time for a variety of reasons(dead, injured, in outer space) so he was raised mainly by Chichi, who insisted he spend much of his time studying. He likely had a few filler-episode-type adventures, but nothing too intense. Chichi's protectiveness kept him near the house most of the time. So our boy never quite outgrows the timidness of childhood, though he has learned to cope rather well by his teens.

In the pre-Android saga, Chichi and Goku separate. Gohan and his mother move closer to the city after several disagreements he doesn't know are about him. Chichi is determined to keep her son safe, which means Gohan has a mostly abstract idea of who his father is until the Cell Games are broadcast that fateful day. She can't keep him from seeing it, indeed it was on every channel, so while the world cheers on Mr. Satan, Chichi prays for her husband's safety, and finally tells her son about his heritage. A fire is lit that day, though it escapes the notice of both for years.

Gohan attends elementary, middle and high school as most children do. He has friends, playmates, tutors, and though he doesn't play sports, he does join a variety of clubs(colleges love extracurriculars). In high school he participates in some academic-decathlon-type competition, and befriends a boy called Suki(more on him later). I'd say the biggest difference between canon Gohan and this AU is that he grows up with friends. Friends, normal humans who accept their shy, nerdy buddy who just happens to have a tail. He is acquainted with Videl, but they have little in common, and she seems out of his league. It's pure luck that they share a homeroom class, so Gohan gets a free ticket to the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament. Chichi doesn't want him to go. This is Gohan's first time openly defying his mother, and he does it because he just might get to see his dad again.

Still with me? Let's get into normal boy's problems.

Gohan was born with above-average potential. This is canon. He displays enough of a glimmer of this potential in DBZ that Vegeta and Nappa have a brief chat about Saiyan/Earthling hybrids while on their way to Earth. In canon Gohan received training which allowed him to make use of this strength. In this AU he received nothing of the sort. This results in the incredibly stressful situation of being unable to control his superhuman strength effectively. He tries, and has mostly succeeded over the years, but every once in a while he slips up and breaks something. Issues like those are becoming more common as Gohan enters his teens. Try as he might to suppress it, his strength only grows, and now it even outpaces his body's ability to adapt. Chichi knows but she can't help, and doesn't want to admit she was wrong to keep him from Goku. With no recourse left, Gohan knows he has to go behind his mother's back to get help from the one person he knows will understand.

That's how the anxious beanpole of a half-Saiyan(yes he's tall and skinny in this I have headcanons) ends up searching the crowd at the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament for his dad he hasn't seen for nine years. Somehow Goku finds him first and, well, I'll save that story for another time.

Thank you as always to my readers.

[fourstarsun]

@risingsouls

[It's not necessarily his character for me as much as it's the narrative that was originally surrounding Goku in Z. Originally, he was sent to Earth because he was considered weak by Saiyan standards, a third class warrior. However, through training his whole life and bettering himself, he went toe to toe with not only his more powerful brother but an ELITE of the race despite Vegeta being adamant that he could never battle on his level. [1/2]

But he did, showing that the class distinctions were bogus and not rigid because a third class rose to the same level as an Elite. However, when it was Bardock and Gine sending him away, thay narrative is weakened because he wasn't sent because he was weak and had to "prove himself" useful and valid to his race. It was just to save his life instead, so the implications from the original story of Goku shattering the expectations of his race [2/3 oops]

As well as showing that hard work and proper training are what got him as far as he gets aren't as powerful. Instead of his race rejecting him and Goku proving them and their system absolutely wrong (which is even more interesting when placed beside Bardock's story), it's just his parents saving his life which doesn't have the same connotation and power toward that narrative as being forcefully sent away by your people's practices. But that's just how I feel.

I get that! I understand how that belief there comes into being because of Goku basically having parents that cared about him. My thing is that I personally think those themes of Goku overcoming what his race thought of him are still present and as strong as they were originally, because he's still a low/third class Saiyan. It doesn't matter that he so happened to have parents that cared about him (parents who were also generally considered among the "low class trash" in Saiyan society), because they don't represent the rest of the race. In the eyes of the Saiyans as a whole, in particular the elites, he was a nobody. That "wouldn't ever change", as we see Vegeta say in the Saiyan Saga, who was easily the biggest representation OF their race (back in Z’s beginning at least).

It also isn't as if Goku ever met Bardock and Gine and learned how he was sent to Earth (or that he was a Saiyan) either. His identity being a Saiyan still came from Raditz, and since Raditz was the very first experience he had interacting with another Saiyan, it was driven into his head that he would be considered meaningless in the eyes of his own kind. That's intensified by his future interactions with Nappa, and especially Vegeta.

Goku still rises above the Saiyan's beliefs through hard work and training. The only difference now is that his parents cared about him, but again, that doesn't change how most other Saiyans would view him - the Saiyans that you could say ""matter"" since Goku meets THEM and not ever his parents. I could go so far as to say that Bardock and Gine saving his life, unknown to him, actually makes his journey of coming to grips with his Saiyan heritage & overcoming how his worth was pre-determined in his infancy more sweeter in a four wall / meta-y sense because it pushes the fact that Goku has always had worth (to us, the readers since we first meet Goku when he’s a child). In-universe, he didn’t and he had to prove it, which he still did with his own power.

That narrative imo hasn’t been dampened by only his mama and papa thinking he was worth a damn, since they were in the very small minority, and he’s ignorant to who they even were. (Barring whatever tf Super’s doing rn, but I think that’s Super’s other contrived, writing problems being more of a heavier influence than this mere retcon.)

But what you feel is valid! Honestly, I think we're just looking at this matter from different sides of a coin. Neither of us are right or wrong. It's all subjective / up to personal perspective.