#To put it very simply; I acknowledge his logic and his perspective but I disagree with it completely

[scarlettjskipper]

2.2 HSR Spoilers!

You know, there's something about Sunday's idea of a paradise in Penacony that I don't see anyone talking about.

Putting aside his perspective and philosophy, and all discussions of whether it's correct or not, it seems pretty clear that he does not intend to seal the Stellaron. If anything, he intends to and does indeed use it construct his paradise.

Gallagher states the Planet of Festivities itself is a Stellaron disaster, and that the cost of that dream is the lives of others.

Now, Sunday intends to stay awake, alone to manage the dream forever.

(This line honestly broke me, but this post is not about that.)

The problem, though: Sunday makes no indication that he will seal the Stellaron. And he doesn't. The Grand Theater is still there. The Planet of Festivities is still there.

Which kind of goes to prove that the paradise he's making is faulty in and of itself! Even if this is a perfect dream where everyone's wishes come true, even if he alone stays awake to maintain it, the Stellaron is STILL there! And for the maintenance of the dream, it will kill people! Fragmentum will appear, and Fragmentum corrosion will still occur. All the destructive aspects of a Stellaron will still come into play.

So yeah. The idea of the Sweet Dream is doomed from its conception itself. For Penacony to move forward in any true way, it needs to seal the Stellaron.

[thinkingisadangerouspastime]

So, this may sound weird, since I don't ship ZK, but I think the reason some dislike EIP is because they realize it was the first part of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc. EIP was part one, where Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out. Yet, Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara and Katara pushes Aang away, suggesting there might be something there that they don't want to acknowledge. (1/3)

The first part of the finale was Part 2, where June reiterates the "Hey you're with your gf again!" Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of 'Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.' During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him. (2/3)

Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him. Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other. (3/4, sorry I have one more)

Again, ZK is not my ship, but EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the "rules" of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together, otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I'm not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist. It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded. (end)

Disclaimer: I don’t care if someone ships Zvtara. Never have, never will. If the takeaway you (the general you, not anon specifically lol) get from this post is that Zvtara is “bad,” then I’m going to assume you didn’t actually read anything I wrote, because that is the farthest thing from my point here. Also, this post is strictly my personal response to these asks. I don’t expect everyone to read this and be like “YEAH” lmao. I am sure some people have different opinions, and that is a-okay!

In short, I think we will have to agree to disagree, anon.

Do some people consider EIP the beginning of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc? Of course they do, they’re “rabid zkers” who wear Zvtara shipping goggles 24/7 lmao. EIP couldn’t have been the beginning of an E-L arc because such an arc was never in the cards for them in the first place! Katara forgave Zuko in the previous episode. Trying to cram a romantic relationship into five episodes after months of hatred between Zuko and Katara would have been awful writing (and thus probably would have been a decision mercilessly criticized until the end of time, lmao). So it’s honestly better that Zvtara gets to spread its wings in fanon instead (much less pressure)! Also, realistically speaking, Katara and Zuko probably still had so many issues to work through in their friendship. Like yes, she forgave him and recognized he was trying to do better, but that doesn’t erase what Zuko has done to her and her friends. There is still plenty of forward progress they need to make before romance can even be considered between them. If that makes sense?

Also, let’s be real: EIP and bit with June afterwards were 100% ship bait. Just an attempt to add to the “drama” of who Katara would end up. A technique only effective while it was airing, for the record, because if you watch the show straight through, it becomes glaringly obvious that Zuko and Katara’s relationship - while gorgeous - was always meant to stay strictly platonic within the canon timeline.

Anyways. I’ll try to break down your ask one piece at a time!

“Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out”

Yes, they are definitely weirded out! The transcript says, “Zuko and Katara inch away from each other, slightly uncomfortable.” Which is just a longer way of describing that they were weirded out by the depiction of their relationship in EIP, lol. However, the play is not how others see them. The play is the Fire Nation’s imperialist propaganda, meant to demean the entire Gaang. I talk about in specifics how the entire Gaang is belittled here, but this is the key stuff I noted about Zuko and Katara:

it’s important to situate that and more importantly situate eip zuko and katara’s relationship within the context of the show. the fire nation is an imperialist country. the southern water tribe has suffered heavily beneath them. we know from “the headband” that fire nation individuals are fed pro-imperialistic propaganda from birth; that combined with zuko and azula’s degrading comment of “peasant” towards katara demonstrate very clearly how the fire nation views every other nation - put simply, they are superior and everyone else is inferior. that attitude is therefore reflected in the eip play:

- katara, an indigenous woman, is highly sexualized and portrayed as overly dramatic and tearful, because the fire nation objectifies women not of their own people and views them as less intelligent and less emotionally stable

- she is thus paired as having a “romance” with zuko in eip because naturally, via fire nation logic, zuko would be able to “score” an “easy” woman of one of the water tribes

- furthermore, the eip “romance” between zuko and katara emphasizes zuko’s position as a traitor to the fire nation; the implication is that as a traitor, he’d only be able to achieve a relationship with a “lesser” woman, e.g. a woman not of the fire nation

That is not how other people truly view Zuko and Katara’s relationship. That is how the Fire Nation depicts their relationship in order to degrade and dehumanize Zuko and Katara. To misinterpret that as “evidence” that Zuko and Katara should have been together romantically is… disturbing, in my opinion. (I really try to stay far away from zkers who use EIP as “proof” of supposed Zvtara interest in each other like honey that is imperialist propaganda please don’t 😭).

If you want to talk about how other people actually view Zuko and Katara’s relationship, look at the Gaang, who were around them most of all! They never tease the possibility of romance between their friends. Why? Because within canon, there wasn’t one. Simple!

“Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara”

Nope! This is all the transcript says: “Zuko [Removing his hood.] Just sit next to me. What’s the big deal?” He doesn’t even mention Katara! Zuko is literally just like I’m already sitting. Why do I need to move? lmfao. It’s no thoughts head empty for our favorite firebender 😂

“Katara pushes Aang away”

I’m assuming this about the kiss, which I’m going to make a post about in the future because I am TIRED of the tomfoolery. Anyways, I’ll keep this brief - yes, she does push him away. She does not deny that she likes him. For Katara, the issue is the timing: “This isn’t the right time.” Both Katara and Aang know they like each other, plain and simple (which is why Aang doesn’t ask if he returns her feelings - he asks if they’d be together, because he knows their feelings are mutual). Katara pushes Aang away because, as she says, they’re in the middle of a war. She’s already seen Aang die once. He might die again. She doesn’t want that, of course, but it’s a reality Katara is forced to consider.

Anyways, her decision has nothing to do with Zuko. Lol.

“June reiterates the ‘Hey you’re with your gf again!’ Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of ‘Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.’”

June’s assumption - especially because it is a repeat of a gag from earlier in the series, when it is incredibly concerning to assume a Fire Nation citizen would be with someone of the Water Tribes because of the war and its consequences - is comic relief. Not even good comic relief, lmao, because of the horrific implications I just mentioned that come with it, but it’s supposed to be comedy. There was no need of any “Zvtara” undercurrents there because a) Katara and Zuko had never expressed romantic interest in each other in the past, b) it wouldn’t track with the show’s narrative of Katara as Zuko’s surrogate sibling because of her position as Azula’s primary foil, and c) it just doesn’t make sense in general. Katara likes Aang. Zuko likes Mai. There was never a love triangle there, plain and simple. Fandom invented it.

And again, if you want to talk about how people actually see Zuko and Katara, don’t look at June, who has never had a proper conversation with either of them. As I said, the Gaang is a much better example, since they’re with the two 24/7. If they never tease Zuko and Katara about romance, why should we trust this random lady who doesn’t even know them?

“During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him.”

As I mentioned, Katara is Azula’s primary foil, so from a literary perspective she absolutely needed to be the one to take her down. Zuko needed to face Azula, but taking her down - again, from a literary pov - was always meant to be the end of Katara’s journey (she was the only person besides Aang who was ever a match for Azula, after all, as we see in CoD). Also, how would Toph be more helpful?? Not saying you’re wrong, btw, I just don’t understand what you mean. If I was Zuko, I also would have brought the waterbender that I’d already witnessed almost take down my sister already 😂. But even if Toph would have been more helpful, sometimes practicality must be sacrificed for a fulfilling narrative arc, lol!

“Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him.”

Honestly, anon, this part of your ask baffles me 😂 I totally understand why rabid zkers might make this argument, but taking into account the rest of the show… It just doesn’t make sense? It’s been talked about a hundred times, but Zuko taking lightning out of romantic interest would ruin his redemption arc, regardless of if it was Katara or Aang or Sokka or anyone in the Gaang that he was taking it for, so that should be the end of discussion, full stop. I’ve talked about this issue here and here before, and someone else does a great job breaking it down in this post, too. But seriously. Zuko having romantic interest for anyone in the Gaang would ruin!! His!! Entire!! Arc!! I hate when people don’t understand that 😭 Zuko had to learn selflessness, to learn how to put others before himself, and to unlearn the imperialist rhetoric he’d been indoctrinated with from birth. Romantic interest during canon for Katara, Sokka, Aang, whomever, I don’t care, completely disregards all of his growth of breaking away from the Fire Nation. Plain and simple.

“Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other.”

I learned in a discord I’m in that Dante Basco apparently hadn’t seen the whole show until this year lmao. He didn’t know what energybending was nor did he know A:TLA ended with a Kataang kiss. Take that with a grain of salt, of course (you can watch the livestream this is revealed in here, and it was also mentioned in the recent StageIt A:TLA reunion), but I think it’s safe to conclude Dante Basco can be treated like any other Zvtara shipper. He likes the ship, which is totally cool, but he is not one of the writers, so his opinion meant naught in constructing the canon narrative.

ANYWAYS. My point is why would Zuko and Katara proclaim interest in each other if such interest would have to be crammed into five measly episodes?? Especially when four of those episodes were the finale?? That is awful writing, of course the A:TLA writers wouldn’t do that, lmao! They’d built up Kataang and Maiko already. Why scrap it and needlessly rush a romance from an excellent - and, important to note, a newly established - platonic bond? Nah.

“EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the ‘rules’ of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together”

Nope. Idk what rules people have been teaching you, anon, but they were lying!! You deserve better than people who would lie to you like that 😤. But yeah, narratively speaking, Katara and Zuko getting together would have made no sense. It would have undermined Zuko’s and Katara’s arcs, it would have completely disregarded Katara’s established feelings for Aang and Zuko’s for Mai, and again, it would have been totally rushed. Who wants that?? Normal people don’t, lmao. This might be hard to believe considering I occasionally rag about BNF zkers, but I actually have several friends who are Zvtara shippers! They agree that canon Zvtara would have made no sense, and that it’s better to play out a potential Zvtara dynamic in post-A:TLA fanon. I swear, it is only the rabid shippers who think Zvtara should have been canon, and trust me when I say no one should want to associate with them, lmao.

(And again, as I touched upon earlier, Zuko and Katara’s canon narrative relationship was surrogate siblings because of Katara’s position as Azula’s primary foil. The show wrapped their arc up perfectly! With a lovely bow and all. So no complaints from me!)

“otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I’m not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist”

What EIP did right:

- accurate (and horrifying) depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda

- recap of previous seasons

- a lesson on consent (Aang kisses Katara, it is depicted as wrong, and Aang reacts appropriately by admonishing himself and by giving Katara space afterwards. like, people call Aang an incel/entitled/whatever, BUT HE HAD THE PERFECT REACTION?? he literally backed off and never pressured her again. i would have killed for the guy who kept getting in my personal space during my junior year to have backed off when i told him to. spoiler alert: he didn’t)

- hit some good humor beats

What EIP did poorly:

- honestly it’s not very interesting just based on watching it (deconstructing it as propaganda gives it better depth), but that’s to be expected from filler

- stupid shipping drama

- not having an additional conversation/explicit apology between Aang and Katara

HOWEVER. This final point is actually very subjective. For one, A:TLA has a clear trend of not showing apologies on screen. Ex.: Katara doesn’t apologize to Sokka for what she said about their mother, Zuko doesn’t apologize for anything he did to the Gaang, Song, or really anyone (closest we get is “Hello, Zuko here” lmao), Ty Lee and Mai don’t apologize for putting the Kyoshi warriors in jail, etc. etc. So while an explicit apology would have been great, the lack of one admittedly tracks with the show’s pre-established standards. And two, while I of course would love a conversation between Aang and Katara (that’s literally MORE KATAANG. why would I refuse 😂), it isn’t… necessary, to be frank. Aang’s mistake is treated as such - kissing Katara was wrong and he should never have done that. Like I said, Aang acknowledges this error and gives Katara space afterwards. Thus, it is Katara who chooses to be with him when the war is over. She respects the time he gave her to come to a conclusion, and the choice she makes is that she loves him despite his poorly-timed kiss (I mean, she forgave Zuko for being complicit in Aang’s death. Katara is clearly a very forgiving person!). So like,, it gets to a point where if someone doesn’t recognize that, they’re probably the kind of weirdo who labels anything they don’t understand in a story as a plothole, lmao.

All of this is to say that EIP wasn’t a disservice to Kataang. It certainly could have been better, of course, and the kiss was obviously only put in to hype up drama (“will they, won’t they” blah blah blah), but overall it handled consent well for a kid’s show.

“It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded.”

On the whole, EIP is absolutely an unnecessary episode, yeah. It was just a recap before the finale. The only important thing is its accurate depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda, but most people’s minds don’t immediately go to that, I’ll admit lmao 😂. And as I’ve already said, there was no Zvtara E-L arc - fandom completely made that up. Which is totally fine! That’s the point of transformative works. But they are still fanon. Plain and simple.

TL;DR - Zvtara was never in the cards for A:TLA. I wish rabid zkers would stop pretending it was and have fun in the sandbox like the rest of us 😭

And for the record, anon, you absolutely, 100% do not have to be convinced by any of this! It’s just my own, personal thoughts on the whole dealio. No worries either way!! 💛

[anti-catradora-receipts]

I really had to see someone say catra didnt abuse adora bc she "didnt have a position of power" over her. And claimed that i "didnt know what abuse was". Well i guess the abuse that ive been through in relationships (platonic and romantic), that has often been like catra/adoras dynamic, wasnt abuse huh. Guess im not an abuse victim after all by that logic

Dear anon,

Firstly, I just wanted to say that I’m really sorry for everything you’ve been through. And I’m really sorry that someone tried to invalidate your experiences with abuse. I really hope you’re doing okay and taking care of yourself.

Secondly, I disagree with the person’s statement of “catra didnt abuse adora bc she "didnt have a position of power" over her.” That’s false. 

Catra admits to manipulating Adora during the show. And this article talks about manipulation in a relationship and how manipulation is all about power and control. I extracted some parts of the article and placed it right below (within the quotation marks): 

“People who manipulate use mental distortion and emotional exploitation to influence and control others. Their intent is to have power and control over others to get what they want.

A manipulators knows what your weaknesses are and will use them against you. This will keep happening unless you actively and assertively put a stop to it. That said, it is not always easy.”

Next, this article is from the perspective of a victim of abuse after leaving an emotionally abusive relationship. The author of the article wanted to better understand their past abusive relationship and shared the insights that they gained from reading the book, ‘Power Games: Confronting Others’ Hurtful Behaviour and Transforming Our Own by Kay Douglas and Dr Kim McGregor’. I feel that the article illustrates in depth the enormous power imbalance between Catra and Adora and I extracted some parts of the article and put it below (within the double quotations): 

“After leaving an emotionally abusive relationship, I found myself needing to understand what had happened. Like most people who leave a volatile situation I was, quite simply, unable to process and articulate what was wrong. Apart from being incredibly vulnerable, I was also just too close to my own situation to see it objectively.

So I decided to read Power Games: Confronting Others’ Hurtful Behaviour and Transforming Our Own by Kay Douglas and Dr Kim McGregor. What I found was a wealth of information confirming what I couldn’t express or even see for myself. Here are some choice insights from the book, as well as some of my own thoughts*:

1. Control is always at the heart of a power game. The need to assert control will usually involve undermining and/or discrediting another to achieve our own ends. For example, we are using power games when we:

bully or intimidate someone into agreeing with our demands;

bait and provoke others through disturbing statements or actions and then claim they’re being over-sensitive/emotional, crazy or irrational (known as gaslighting); 

...

engage in name calling, put-downs, harsh criticism or threats.

2. Manipulators are not concerned with taking responsibility for their decisions/behaviours/feelings. Instead, they create a smokescreen by shifting the focus or blame to others. And consequently, the other party must assume the responsibility for making the situation ‘better’. If the other party is a ‘good’ person, they will comply with whatever demands are issued (peace at any price). As soon as they resist, however, the manipulator is likely to go on the attack.

3. For the receiver, cumulative exposure to such tumult may reduce self-esteem and increase anxiety, resentment and fear. Receivers will experience intense emotional reactions and may end up interpreting these as proof they are selfish, unbalanced, over-sensitive and unreasonable. They may lose their sense of self; either over-compensating to ‘get it right’ and ‘be better’ or even adopting manipulative tactics against others.

...

4. For the receiver, regaining personal power starts with a shift in one’s thinking. More specifically, an acknowledgement that the manipulator must take responsibility for their feelings and behaviours and any future change. It is accepting that the dynamic needs to change and learning to distinguish between real and manufactured guilt. It is constructing and defending boundaries and a willingness to listen to what anger is trying to say. It is the ability to cut through the smokescreen tactics and see the situation clearly. It is the ability to speak one’s truth and articulate one’s feelings. It is honouring the self. And, sometimes, this will mean leaving.

What I learned is that while not everyone who feels inadequate is a manipulator, every manipulator feels inadequate. So do we all, I know. But, what sets manipulators apart is the way they consistently and systematically re-distribute this inadequacy onto others.

...

What I also learned is that by disengaging I was not giving up, but that I was actively saying ‘I am worth more than this’.”

On a personal note, I just wanted to point out some additional reasons I see a huge power imbalance between Catra and Adora:

- The fact that Catra was completely okay with controlling Adora and Catra was not willing to give up her control of Adora.

- The fact that Adora seems to be the one who is constantly scared of Catra. At the present moment, I can only remember two scenes when Catra is scared of Adora: when Adora gets corrupted and attacks Catra at the beginning of White Out (S2E5), and when Adora gives Catra “The Look” at the end of The Portal (S3E6) . In addition, take a look at this scene. Adora honestly believes that Catra is going to kill her:

- The fact that Catra is completely okay with taking away Adora’s power. In the following scene, Catra doesn’t even see Adora as a person but as a tool. Catra literally states that they’ll use the corrupted sword in order to control Adora and use Adora as an advantage for the Horde. Catra even states that she’ll control Adora to kill Adora’s own friends. That is unbelievably sick. Moreover, Catra was completely okay with controlling Adora’s choices and actions. In fact, this scene supports the fact that Catra was completely okay with taking away Adora’s freedom. 

And honestly, there are some stark similarities between the previous scene with Catra and the following scene with Shadow Weaver. Shadow Weaver was ready to take away Adora’s power and use Adora as a tool against the Rebellion. 

I’d also like to point out that what Catra was willing to do to Adora, Horde Prime had actually done to Catra in S5. Catra’s power and freedom was taken away by Horde Prime and Horde Prime controlled Catra to attack Adora. The fact that Horde Prime took away Catra’s power and freedom was cruel and despicable. And the fact that Catra was willing to take away Adora’s power and freedom is cruel and despicable. 

Moreover, Adora ended up with Catra, a person who was perfectly okay with taking away Adora’s freedom and power. 

That is absolutely vile.

Finally I just want to add that my pinned post titled “Catra abused Adora.” has hyperlinks to resources relating to abuse:

- The Emotional Abuse section is reviewed by professionals. 

- The Physical Abuse section is provided by an online mental health service in Australia.

And these resources confirm that Catra emotionally and physically abuses Adora. 

In conclusion, you are right to say that Catra abuses Adora. Again, I’m really sorry that someone tried to invalidate your experiences with abuse. And I really hope you know that your feelings about Catradora are completely valid. 

I genuinely hope you’re talking care of yourself. Seriously, please make sure you check in with yourself and prioritize some self-care. 

Thank you very much for sharing. ✨

[ifbrd]

Not Sugar-Coated, ToBecky Critique from a ToBecky Shipper

Let’s talk about Tobecky and it’s toxicity! And for once, let’s not hold back! I think what I’m gonna do for this post is focus on the dynamic they have in the show, mostly criticizing my own misogyny but calling out the fandom in general as well, as I’ve seen other’s do these same things. Later I will reblog it on the Word Up blog and continue my thoughts on the ship and how it affected Word Up.

The first thing I will say is that I am a Tobecky shipper, ever since Tobey’s first shorts when it was revealed he had a crush on WordGirl. I started watching this show as a kid, I would have been 9 or 10 when it started airing on PBS. If I were to get into this show today, however, I don’t think I would be shipping tobecky, because as an adult I can recognize its toxicity which I didn’t have the proper knowledge or understanding to do back in the day. And I think the real reason I still ship today is purely nostalgic. Though I won’t deny that their dynamic is interesting and that likely affects my shipping brain too.

As a kid, I think I shipped it because, well it seemed inevitable. It seemed like the only endgame option. How many romcoms start with a girl liking one boy, only to realize later she should be with a different guy, usually an underdog the audience is supposed to root for. How many romance stories start with the two not liking each other, ranging anywhere from minor annoyances for each other to full-blown enemies, only to later understand it was all a guise to hide their true feelings. It seemed obvious that Becky/WordGirl would end up with not Scoops, whom she had a crush on, but instead Tobey, the underdog she always was fighting or arguing with. Factor in Tobey’s crush, my very underdeveloped ability to think critically, and the fact that the writers in early seasons seemed to really take the time to focus on the potential chemistry between these two (their interactions in “Department Store Tobey” and both of them having a good time together in “Have You Seen the Remote?” etc) and it seemed there was only one boy for Becky to logically end up with.

The first time I can recall really questioning this ship, I mean really questioning it, was sometime in probably my sophomore or freshman year? Maybe my junior year? I recall my health teacher teaching us about healthy vs unhealthy relationships. In this unit, I realized several of my favorite ships across various fandoms were unhealthy but that’s a whole other topic. At one point I remember him giving his two cents about the phrase “opposites attract” when being applied to romance. He said this can be true, but only if the two are “opposites” in personality, and not “opposites” in values. If a couple’s values, their morals, don’t align, they probably aren’t going to make it. And in all honesty, I think Tobey and Becky have the worst possible combination for this.

They have very similar personalities, and while this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it can make it easier for them to encourage their negative traits instead of helping them overcome them. The traits they both share like pridefulness, attention-seeking, and being a bit obsessive, have the potential to be the traits they bring out in each other. The best counter-argument for this is the fact that Becky is willing to and would call Tobey out for everything wrong or ridiculous he does, and try to help him. But that doesn’t matter if Tobey is not willing to listen to her when she calls him out, or accept her help when she offers it and he needs it. And it’s especially worthless if he’s not willing to help her back.

Meanwhile, the biggest weakness for this ship is their opposite values. Their morals couldn’t be more apart from each other. Get these two together for long periods of time and a morality war would easily ensue. And then combined with if their similar personalities do end up bringing the worst in each other, then any relationship they could have would be disastrous.

The worst issues with their pairing all go back to Tobey. I love Tobey as a character, don’t get me wrong, but we need to be honest, and please excuse the language--Tobey is a piece of shit! He is disrespectful to everyone around him, except his mother, and that’s only because he’s scared of her He thinks he’s better than everyone else and has no issues expressing that opinion, even going as far as to try to define words for WordGirl. He goes as far as to belittle her in “Tobey or Consequences” criticizing her word choice. He has been shown on multiple occasions to lose his mind when he doesn’t get exactly what he wants and will do anything to get it, without regard for others’ property, feelings or safety. He’s manipulative as seen in “Tobey Goes Good” and “Have You Seen the Remote.” He’s unwilling to take responsibility for his actions, as demonstrated when he attacks the candy factory for making candy because he got a cavity, instead of realizing that he should have taken better care of his teeth.

And worst of all, despite what he and the audience often believe, he clearly doesn’t give a single shit about WordGirl. If he cared about her he would have acknowledged her disinterest, if he cared about her, he wouldn’t have tried to force Becky into admitting she’s WordGirl in “By Jove, You’ve Wrecked My Robot.” If he cared about her, he wouldn’t have pretended to be good or trick her into spending time with him or forced her to read poems about him. In the Halloween special he thought Violet was WordGirl just because she was wearing a WordGirl costume, failing to acknowledge that Violet is blonde and white and WordGirl is clearly not.

The episode “WordBot” makes it very clear what kind of relationship Tobey wants from WordGirl--and it’s not a relationship. It’s a dynamic where she simply showers him with never-ending adoration and does whatever he wants. Tobey cares about one person and one person only and it’s not WordGirl, it’s himself.

And I’m not even counting “Go Gadget Go” in any of this! That episode put him in such a bad light that most fans pretend it doesn’t exist because his behavior is so inexcusable. And yet even without that episode, we have plenty of toxicity coming from Tobey’s end.

I once saw someone say they hate the tobecky ship because the argument for it often is that Becky will be willing to put up with Tobey when they’re older. First of all, if that’s your argument in tobecky’s favor you need to go take a good hard look at yourself. Becky putting up with Tobey’s messed up behavior is essentially hoping she ends up in a horrible, toxic, unhealthy, relationship that would be borderline abusive if she didn’t stand against him. Secondly, while I don’t deny the existence of this argument, (I once read a fanfic where the two were married but still a hero and villain who battled regularly) I disagree with the idea that this argument is most often used to justify the ship. Instead, the most common argument to justify it is the idea that Tobey has it in him to change. This is certainly a better argument, as Tobey changing is really the only hope for this ship.

But I think it’s really easy for us, myself included, to struggle with the line between finding evidence that Tobey could change vs excusing his actions; the line between finding an explanation for his behavior vs finding an excuse for him. It’s a very easy line to accidentally cross without realizing it. And it really says something when, as discussed in another post, we are not giving other villains like Victoria--who have more of an “excuse” --the same treatment. It’s incredibly misogynistic.

I’m not going to try to argue that Tobey doesn’t have the capability to be good, of course, he does. We can see this in the cute note he leaves in Becky’s backpack in “Trustworthy Tobey” and in the very last moments in the Thanksgiving special, and of course in our favorite example, “It’s Your Party and I’ll Cry if I Want to.” I’m also not saying that Tobey’s actions and psychology aren’t the product of the environment and circumstances he faces daily. Of course having no father figure present, a single mother who is always working, and no friends is going to affect a child. What I want to question is when is Tobey responsible for his own life, choices, and actions? Maybe not now at age 10-11, but what about when he’s 13? 16? 18? 21? 40? Where do we draw that line? I also don’t want to discourage looking for the good in people and characters and thinking critically about how their past and psychology is affecting their actions. I want to encourage that in all characters, not just the boy who happens to have a crush.

And while it’s nice to speculate that Tobey will follow a better path in the future, not so much for tobecky as much as for the betterment of Tobey himself, we need to realize that it’s just speculation. We have no canon proof of where his story goes post-WordGirl. He has his moments of hope but overall this kid has a terrible track record. When it comes to others, Tobey makes terrible choices. And that’s exactly what “going good” will be--a choice--his choice.

I also want to take a moment to talk about something @fromtheplanethexagon said in this amazing post you should totally read because it’s great. They commented on how very few people when writing tobecky fanfics takes the time to explore her perspective of their feelings for each other. Where her feelings originate and why she would like him. This is something I am absolutely guilty of and will be paying attention to in the future. After reading that passage from their post I thought for a while why Becky would like Tobey, and I honestly struggled with it a bit, which shouldn’t be happening if I’m trying to write a healthy tobecky story. That’s all I’ll say on this for now because beyond this I would use Word Up as an example, so I’ll save that for later.

The older I get the more I realized how toxic this ship is. Heck, who knows what I’ll realize about it in the future when I’m even more mature. In the past I’ve tried to convince myself it’s okay I ship it because I never shipped Tobey with WordGirl, I shipped him with Becky. I know they are the same person, but Tobey doesn’t know that, and the dynamics between him and each of her egos are very different. The dynamic between Tobey and WordGirl reminds me of Gideon and Mabel from Gravity Falls. Meanwhile the one between Tobey and Becky reminds me more of the one between Jimmy and Cindy from The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron. That’s better right? Even if just a little bit? Well no, not really, because we all know darn well if Tobey fell for Becky instead of WordGirl he would treat Becky exactly the same as he treats WordGirl. He would ultimately have the same “WordBot esc” expectations. If anything he might try to treat her worse. With WordGirl there is a clear power balance, and while it’s still technically there with Becky, Tobey doesn’t know it’s still there and might try to use that to his advantage.

And to conclude I’d like to add to @fromtheplanethexagon above-mentioned post (here’s the link again, seriously, read it!). Regarding their final thoughts that it’s fine to explore the ship, and it’s fine to explore the unhealthy parts of the ship. But we need to be careful to not glorify the toxicity of the potential pairing.

[caffeinated-yearning]

Confessions and (Bad) Dancing

In which pieces of the puzzle slot into place, feelings are lain bare after a year of working together on cases, and some people are better at dancing than they have any right to be (but unfortunately I am not one of them).

Word Count: 2103 Warnings: uhhh aside from crippling embarrassment as a center-stage piece, none I can think of.

“Slow dance? No, sorry, I don’t know how.” It was ironic, the tone Mark used- but he was sincere; not for lack of trying, but a waltz was simply outside his dancing expertise. So was pretty much every dance step ever; he had never been very skilled with dance. I’ll step on your foot and scuff your shoes, or I’ll fall into you, or “it will be unsightly,” and that’s a promise. A low hum as the half-smile fell from something almost sincere into a flatter expression that looked more unyielding than it was.

Mark’s eyes remained on the offered hand, still outstretched as Mr. Edgeworth spoke; “I promise it’s easier than you think.” For one half-second, Mark actually considered it. Considered it carefully, from every angle- and from all perspectives foresaw himself getting embarrassed. Either through his own inexperience, or some comment thereupon. If nothing else, being that close to Miles- to Mr. Edgeworth would destroy the easy-going facade that he so carefully kept. A quick one-two and done, Mann overboard. 

Miles added, after a half-second of silence; “consider it a request; it has been a while since I’ve had the opportunity, and I can think of no one I’d rather share it with.”

…

What?

Operation ‘try not to think gay thoughts’ has been blasted wide the fuck open, and all smashed to smithereens; what does that mean? What does that mean?! Dumbstruck, feeling his hands and feet go ice-cold and at the same moment his chest and face start to burn, Mark was… Passingly aware that he’d accepted Edgeworth’s (Miles’?) hand. 

-

What???

What a terribly foolish thing to admit. Miles chewed his lip, hoping that that specific admission would pass cleanly over Mark’s head. The opportunity, hah! No one he’d rather share it with— a request?! How utterly embarrassing to have said so much. He considered himself lucky, and unlucky, that this Mann was so incapable of noting any act of affection leveled toward him.

Not… not that Miles was well known for being terribly affectionate. Still.

And, likewise now, Mark seemed wholly preoccupied with other things. Perhaps his utter obliviousness would continue to spare Miles the indignity of having to discuss any matters of the heart. 

… That there were matters of the heart which needed discussing was… well. It certainly wasn’t something he wanted to acknowledge.

-

Mark didn’t have the emotional wherewithal to hold his head up on the path to the dance floor- normally he wouldn’t dream of hanging his head, but the ground became very interesting when one needed to focus on one’s step, and even if he didn’t need to focus, meeting the eyes of (not allowed to think ‘crush’ but) Miles Edgeworth was dangerous enough.

Ah- oh no. They really had crossed that distance rather too quickly for Mark’s liking. Hand-on-back that rested warmly against this, his body, and it suddenly felt cumbersome to be- just to be. Mark’s own hand held feather-light over Miles’ shoulder; unwilling even to touch- to touch Miles. His hands were so cold and his face so warm- God, if there be any mercy in the world, may lightning strike me down here and now. 

Alas, no such luck. 

As the music started, step-one-two, don’t mess this up and stumble as Miles pulled him closer-; hand landing like lead to stabilize himself, and Mark felt his brain go absolutely empty- empty and full of static at the same time. “Sorry, sorry,” he mumbled, pulling back just to see where he was stepping- to see he was trodding on Miles’ feet and step-step stumble off. “I’m sorry—.” Sorry sorry sorry fuck.

-

“You really are unfamiliar with this,” Miles almost found it amusing, how little coordination there was. It- the dance- was all an excuse to be close to Mark in an otherwise over-crowded venue; he almost certainly should not have done this, should not even have admitted that he wanted to do this, but he had. While it was clumsy, it was still enchanting- just to be there together. 

If only Mark were slightly more aware of the situation. 

Miles sighed lightly, watching Mark glance one way, then the next- evidently searching for something, though what exactly he was looking for was beyond Miles’ kenning. Looking up, then down, then up again; it was a wonder he didn’t get dizzy.

A tense voice, anxious; “I said I’m bad at dancing.” Not exactly… ideal, for a (not a date but) dance.

“You’re not the worst,” Miles offered.

“But I’m not the best.” Quickly dismissed.

“Do you need to be the best at everything?” 

“You can’t tell me you disagree- that you don’t want to be the best at everything you touch.”

That was… A fair enough point, he supposed. “But it’s an unreasonable standard to hold yourself to.”

Mark laughed at that- rude enough, tonight; “from you? From you?? We’re the same in that regard, at least. Neither willing to be less than the best, and neither expecting the world to live by the same standards.” At least he wasn’t still so stressed. And he’s back to watching our feet.

-

Mark felt himself pulled along at an unfamiliar speed; again he had been pulled a little too close, the dizzying steps tossing him face-first into Edgeworth’s cravat with a muffled ‘oomph.’ Despite all his struggling, he managed to scowl up into the grey above when he recovered his legs. So much struggling, with this dance thing. Struggles to meet a gaze, struggles to match the step. Infinite struggles, it seemed. Terrible! 

Miles looked away too quickly when the glare was cast- had he been looking at me? “It gets easier with practice, you know.”

Mark grumbled and huffed and felt very inelegant as he tried not to step on any shoes without looking. “Which is useful if you are inclined to practice- so, not useful to me.”

“Hmm. Perhaps you would be so inclined if you had someone to practice with?”

Mark glared back at his feet with that; to look at Miles when his face was this bright (step over, Rudolph,) would convey only that he found the notion embarrassing- and master of logic that Miles was, surely if he didn’t put it all together by now, he’d have the final piece of evidence in the long and storied history of Mark has a big ol’ stinkin’ crush on pretty boy Miles Edgeworth like some kind of gay dweeb or something. Mark was sure he hadn’t been found out, but just as sure that it was only a matter of time. Damned if he would speed that along by actually showing off his embarrassment like some neon sign over his head. Over his face. Whatever.

“What-? Practice with you?” He tried not to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

-

“Is that so bad an idea?” Oh Miles was on fire with suggestions that would be impossible to explain away in the future, when they had work tomorrow and had to act like nothing happened. 

“It’s a terrible idea!” Despite the words, Miles could hear the smile in Mark’s voice; like it was all a joke. 

“Oh?” He tried not to take offense to that- the offer was genuine, even if it would have been hard to explain away in the future. “And what’s so terrible about it?”

Mumbling, as though trying to speak under his breath and not accounting for the fact that they were less than arm’s distance from each other; “I’m gay; you figure it out.”

This time when Mark walked into Miles’ chest, it was less because of his own inexperience, and more to do with Miles coming to his own screeching halt. 

“… What?”

“What?” Mark looked up, and reflexively Miles looked away again. 

While blushing might have been a bit too strong a word for it, Miles felt his throat, face, and ears burn with… hmmm, embarrassment? Something more akin to sudden, unwanted understanding, as all the pieces fell in place. “Wh-?! What does- what does that have to do with it?!”

“I said I’m bad at dancing! You’ve noticed!! You can’t tell me that you haven’t noticed. Perhaps I am completely without rhythm, perhaps I am wholly incapable of such things as stepping around a room elegantly!”

“That’s definitely not what you said,” he started moving again- but this time, it was less of a dance and more of an attempt to hurriedly get out of the center of the room, get off the dance floor and into a place slightly quieter, slightly less in the view of everyone around. The appreciation in Mark’s expression was subtle, once he realized they were leaving- only for it to get suddenly screwed up into apprehension. 

Miles supposed it was probably because Mark had put together that they were leaving for the sake of a slightly more serious discussion.

-

The evening breeze was lovely, Mark supposed; it was cool enough that he could almost radiate away all the embarrassment without having to go shove his entire head under a cold tap.

Almost.

“Now,” Mark refused to look at Edgeworth- not that looking would have been so difficult in the dark of the night, but the idea that Edgeworth would be able to see Mark’s own face was enough to keep him looking to the side. “Mr. Mann, please.”

He glanced over in spite of himself- and though it was dark, something in Miles’ stance, or gestures, conveyed the same unease. “This is he who’s speaking.”

“This is not the time for jokes, sir.” 

Miles groaned, and despite the fear sense in the air, Mark cracked a smile. “But I am such a jester! It’s only natural that I crack a joke to lighten the mood.”

“I— even so,” Miles sat on the steps, gesturing for Mark to join him. “Please explain why your being gay is relevant.”

“You’re clever; can’t you figure it out?” Mark had almost sat down, and then the question (request?), and he elected instead to lean against a pillar and not, in fact, sit at all. “Surely something like that is obvious.” The smile had faded, that much was obvious in his tone.

“You’re not afraid to fall in love with me,” Miles posed it as though it was a question, rather than a statement of fact; attached to the end was an ‘are you?’

“Far worse,” Mark breathed; a whisper directed away that didn’t land upon any ears at all.

“Since that’s not an issue, I’m afraid I don’t see the logic.”

“I already…” have. 

“Hmm?”

“Your logic is faulty. It’s well past your statement.” 

“My… Do you mean ‘afraid to fall in love’?”

“That one, yeah.”

“Well past, then…” The silence sounded almost like disbelief; not that Mark was going to look over and see for himself. “You—?”

“Don’t tell me you didn’t notice.”

“You didn’t—!”

“For a long time!!” Mark wanted to laugh and scream all at the same time. God, what a terror this was! To admit to a crush one’s feelings, to acknowledge—.

“You didn’t notice either—?”

Wait what??? Mark turned around so fast he got dizzy and fell over. Miles was standing, having stood up at the revelation, and now he was leaning over Mark to help him get back up on his feet, and oh what a humiliating thing— “what do you mean ‘notice either’??? What’s that supposed to mean???”

“I knew you were oblivious but I was certain at least by tonight you’d have figured it out-.”

“Figured WHAT out?! What are you talking about?! Is this a dream? Am I dying and dreaming or something??”

“When I asked you to dance I was certain that would have clued you in-.”

“Oh my GOD whAT no I’m surely dying this is it, goodbye sweet world!”

“I can’t believe you would just throw away all evidence that pointed to my liking you at all!” By now they were both standing, and the panicked stream of words that had seemed never-ending had slowed to a point where they once again took turns speaking. “You really had no idea, then?”

“No. I’m a clown, remember?”

“Hmm. Well.”

“Regretting saying anything?”

“No, I think not.” 

Hand in hand, a moment’s pause before clearing of throats and suggestions that perhaps they ought to return inside.

“I still think I’ll simply die if you try to teach me how to dance.”

“Well we certainly wouldn’t want that. Very well, you are free of such an obligation.”

“Good. I’d rather not have any more heart-attacks for a while.”

[thejustmaiden]

Just bcos u PERCEIVE SessRin as something that promotes pedophilia and grooming doesn't mean that's how the author portrayed it. It's disappointing to see that antis force such idea, as if they know what's inside Rumiko's mind. It is fine if u find sessrin cringey. Just don't force your idea of pedophilia and grooming as THE CORRECT PORTRAYAL OF SESSRIN.

Hello there, nonnie! You had quite the party in my ask box, I see. Breaking it up in parts may actually help me get to the point and address your concerns swiftly and accordingly. Here goes nothing. 😉

This answer is for your first two asks by the way. Firstly, you're putting words in my mouth because I do not view Rumiko as an author who promotes pedophilia and child grooming and never have. She never once placed an ounce of romance into their scenes. Rin was essentially introduced to serve as a catalyst for Sesshomaru's character growth. That's major in and of itself, which is why I'm not sure why she needs to be the mom on top of all that she's already done for him. It was you, Sessrin shippers, who had to go and make it romantic, not us. It was you who took every innocent scene and turned it into a romantic one. You'll even use some of their scenes as proof they will end up together, then back-pedal later and say those very same scenes weren't romantic in order to protect the sanctity of your ship. I mean, which is it? It can't be both, it's either one or the other.

I repeat, NO we don’t actually think Rumiko wanted to portray this relationship with pedophillic or grooming tendencies. It's you shippers who insist there is no other way for their relationship to evolve, as if you speak on behalf of Rumiko. Your interpretation of Rumiko's work is what implies child grooming; she may not be condoning it but your perspective sure is. You talk down to antis who disagree, because in your opinion, your interpretation is not only superior but already canon in your eyes. You're doing a disservice to this fandom by spreading false information like that when you try to pass it off as official. So if it's anyone that assumes they know what goes on inside Rumiko's head, it's YOU. Somewhere down the road in the (un)foreseeable future, it's you who changes course since remember we were all in agreement at the beginning that their relationship wasn't romantic. So what did I miss? Please break it down for me and explain what exactly influenced you to change your mind, then describe in detail how again this transition in their relationship magically came to be. It's you who came to that decision on your own- nobody helped you get there, and certainly not Rumiko (as you said yourself). The user boycottyashahime put it better than I did, so here is the link to their post. I highly recommend you read it if you haven't already. I urge you to keep an open mind about it while reading, too. You may not like what they have to say, but there's no denying they make excellent points all the same.

I'm pretty sure I catch your drift, but can you clarify if you're referring to historical context or cultural context? I suppose both can be applied here. haha Anyway, from what I gather, you believe that fans should be on board with the idea of Sessrin and at the very least tolerate the pairing. Whether they ship it or not, you believe this simply for the fact that the story takes place in the feudal era and couples with a similar relationship back then were more than acceptable. The thing is, we may be transported to Feudal Japan in this story but we're still taking our modern day morals with us for the trip. I have a whole ass blog dedicated to the significance of fiction in real life (convienently pinned on my page) if you wanna check it out. I also discuss what age-appropriate content is and isn't for Inuyasha viewers in this recent ask here that I find is also pretty relevant to the convo.

Alrighty, moving onto your next point. I can't stress enough to you guys that this isn't a mere Caucasian vs. Non-Caucasian dilemma. I'm a POC, so I ask that you please not presume to know things about me you couldn't possibly know unless we met or I shared it with you. In fact, many of the other antis I frequently chat with are POCs like myself. So for all that's good and holy, please stop ignoring us when we say: THERE ARE FANS IN JAPAN WHO HATE THIS SHIP TOO. THIS ISN'T A DIFFERENCE OF CULTURE, THIS IS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION (& FACT). It may have not been called child grooming during that time, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't; it just went under a different name, that's literally it.

Let me give you another example. So if I'm watching a movie about WWII in Nazi Germany, am I supposed to sympathize with an SS officer if the story is being narrated from his point of view? Because in his mind and during that time period, his ideology is right. Like a lot of Germany during that war, I rally to support his leader for what is in my opinion a just cause. Tell me, how does context matter in this instance? Does it matter so much so that you would adopt the same ideals just because it was "historically accurate" and you don't see anything wrong with it when you put yourself in their shoes? Does the "it's just fiction" defense come into play here, too?

The illustration I believe you are referring to is the calendar with that one official illustrator for Inuyasha, right? The thing is, an official illustrator doesn’t equal the creator of Inuyasha. They may support the Sessrin ship, but their work has no connection to the Inuyasha series in any way besides the name affiliation. I've heard that the illustrator also included Kagome x Koga art, so should we take that seriously then too? Rumiko never once alluded to a future romance between Sesshomaru and Rin, to which you even (kinda) agreed. She described their relationship as neither parental or romantic, and she added that she even contemplated making Rin a boy at first. Fun facts, y'all!

I've heard about those magazines but they sound fishy to me. Would you mind sending me a link to a reliable source that comes with an English translation? I'd like to emphasize again that illustrators or VAs can do and say as they please, but their opinions are still only opinions at the end of the day. Nothing is set in stone until Rumiko says it is.

For one, I never said my interpretation was the only correct portrayal. That's you putting words in my mouth again. What I did say, however, was that my interpretation was more logical and reasonable than yours based on popular and widely-accepted story patterns found in real life and in fiction. Look this isn't about who's more "correct" or not. You can perceive Sesshomaru and Rin's relationship any damn way you want, BUT what you cannot do is dictate how we react to your depiction of this ship. You can't demand us to view your ship a certain way to fit your preferences. I'm sure all the hate on your ship can be unbearable at times, but that's just the cross you'll have to bear for supporting such a problematic couple. If a large part of any fandom is strongly against a pairing and what it represents, then there's usually a very legitimate reason for that. You may not want to hear this, but certainly you must realize there's some truth to it all. A couple of your fellow shippers have even admitted to me that Sessrin would be wrong IRL. You see what I mean? Even if we find the ship gross, antis don't care if you choose to ship Sessrin. All we care about is you acknowledging that, like IRL, Sessrin potentially poses a lot of problems for young viewers and how they come to make sense of and view similar situations that are borderline grooming or the very thing itself. Teens watching this show are more vulnerable and impressionable, which is why it's crucial to not show relationships like Sessrin in a favorable light. If they're ever put in a situation IRL that resembles Sessrin, they need to be aware and understand that it's not at all normal or healthy for that adult to make a move on them. Let's say Sessrin does go canon, then that would mean Rin had to get pregnant around 14 or 15. Sending that kind of message to an audience made up of mostly teenagers isn't exactly wise if you ask me. Please really think about that and sit with it if you need to.

I'm positive I'm following the same story, thank you very much. Also, how can you be so confident making a statement like that when I have actual Sessrin shippers praising me for making valid points? Sorry to break it to you, but I don't think I'm as lost as you claim me to be or wish that I was.

That's a wrap, peeps!

Read over what I had to say again later and then get back to me if want, but only write me back if you plan to be respectful. Otherwise I will decline to answer. Just keep that in mind. And may I suggest only sending 1 or 2 asks at a time? Please and thank you!

I think I may know exactly who are, nonnie, but I can't say for sure. Besides, it doesn't really matter, as you have a right to stay anonymous if you so wish to. Listen, don't forget you are also more than welcome to interact (but appropriately) on my blogs/asks/etc. If you are who I think you are, then you recently did make a comment on one of them but didn't stick around when I replied back (and for good reason). Finally, if you hope to ever have a real discussion about this topic someday, first put your ego aside and refrain from throwing insults and then I'll hear you out. I have never once put you down in all of our interactions, so there's no need to show up here all riled up and aggravated in the first place. There's also no need to laugh at or mock other's opinions. Don't take jabs and assume I must not know something about Inuyasha just because I don't support your point of view. I may not agree with your opinion, but you don't see me having a condescending air about it.

Apologies if you're not the member I believe you to be, but no offense, you probably still needed to hear all of that too. It's not included here since I answered it immediately, but that final ask you sent me where you got angry and assumed I wasn't going to answer you was totally uncalled for. If you ever hope someday to participate in real discourse with me or any other antis, you should take my advice and seriously chill and learn how to be patient.

Hope this finds you well, nonnie!

[killthebxy]

I apologize in this seems abrasive, I just noticed how vehemently you're against the show canon. I don't blame you one bit. But wouldn't Dany being Nissa Nissa just be another way of making her a plot device for a man? Just in a more socially acceptable way than D&D did? It has the same outcome and it's still her dying by the hands of the man she loves.

          thank you for your question, friend! before i answer, let me make a disclaimer: 1) i am writing this as someone who loves Jon Snow, and therefore someone who’s biased in his favor, and 2) i am writing this as a man talking about a man. so, while i like to believe i was raised well and i can do a rational and mostly objective analysis, i am still grounded in my own experiences and my own perspectives. and nothing of what i’ll say is “the truth” or “what’s right” — simply, my own personal opinion.

          with this said… i have to start by saying that we can look at this, as we can look at most things in life, from two perspectives: we look only at the outcome, or we look at the process and at everything that led to a certain outcome. and i think this is a case where this distinction is essencial. because if you look at the outcome only — yes, the end result is exactly the same; Dany dies at the hand of Jon, a woman dies at the hand of a man. but this would be like me looking at the season finale and thinking: well, Jon got exactly the endgame i always wanted for him, so i have nothing to complain about — i can’t do this. i can’t ignore everything that brought him to this outcome, i.e., the process. i can’t ignore that his essence as George’s character was completely destroyed to lead to this apparently perfect outcome.

          so, if we look at Dany dying in the show, what do we see? i, at least, see a narrative written for the sole purpose of stating: this woman is mad, she needs to be removed and we’ll make her be removed by the hand of the man she loves for bonus shock points. this is literally all i see. i know some people defend there was already signs of Dany going mad, how for example the throne room covered in ash like it happened in her vision in the House of the Undying in s02. and to this i ask two questions: 1) as someone who knows what D&D have been doing to this series, do you guys seriously believe they, back in like 2012 or whenever s02 happened, had the capacity to plan this far ahead for the sake of a plot that has continuity?; 2) as someone who is a researcher and a science nerd — if we look at data in retrospective, we can make this data give us literally any outcome we want, provided we apply the suitable statistical analysis. in this case, if we look back through the seasons, yes, we can definitely find arguments that Dany was going mad, if we want. BUT. we can also look back through the seasons and find arguments that Dany was someone with a good heart, who made mistakes and bad decisions but who wanted to be a kind and just ruler for her people. so, whatever we extract from this series in retrospective is whatever we want to find. this much is on us, not on D&D’s capacity to build a continuous and coherent plot because this much we all agree is non-existent.

          now, if we look at the idea of Jon being Azor Ahai reborn, and Dany being Nissa Nissa reborn… first of all, this is as much based on personal headcanons as the previous point is built on what the show gives us. i cannot judge this idea based on facts, because this never happened in the show neither in the books — everything i put together for this idea is based on my own creativity, like for example in the background i wrote for my mad king verse, or on everything i have discussed with @zcldrizes. in the first case, my verse, it is actually interesting you brought up this question because i have wondered about it myself. am i doing this in a sensible way? am i not using Dany (and everyone else included in that background) just for my own purpose? and, in a way, i am — i admit that i am, because my outcome was that Jon is crowned and slowly loses himself, and to reach this outcome i needed to build a background that supports it in a logical way. i dislike the idea that being Targaryen = inexorably being mad, therefore i tried to put together a storyline where trauma and grief bring him to this — for which i needed vital characters to die, as they are the ones he loves the most. this is why i tried to give them a purpose in that verse, and not just state that they died because they had to, so to speak. this is also why that verse is very flexible and can accommodate many different possibilities, because i wanted everyone who’s possibly interested in writing that idea with me to be able to fit their muse in, and not just be excluded because “sorry but your muse needs to die so that Jon can go mad”. which, in turn, this is why this verse in particular only works with extensive plotting with my roleplay partners.

          and now let me quickly apologize, because i know i am digressing a lot! but i need all this foundation to ultimately answer your question with the depth it requires, so please bear with me. because this is bringing me close to the core of the question — if Dany is Nissa Nissa, doesn’t this make her a plot device for Jon? for this, i have to state my perspective on what a plot device is: a character whose only (or limited) purpose in a narrative is to provoke something else of note for another character. three blatant examples when it comes to Jon: Rickon Stark, whose only purpose to be brought back was to be killed in front of Jon, for the sake of triggering Jon into that mad rage that would have resulted in losing the battle against Ramsay if it wasn’t for Sansa’s intervention; Benjen Stark, whose only purpose to be brought back was to provide a semi-rational justification for Jon to be able to return to Eastwatch; Grey Worm, who was made to attack the unarmed Golden Company after they yielded just for the sake of making Agony Targaryen look like this honorable man who’d never put up with this. and now a blatant example when it comes to Daenerys: Missandei, who had to be beheaded whilst back in chains for the sake of being the ultimate trigger for Dany going mad. arguably, Missandei and Grey Worm had a much broader purpose than Benjen and Rickon, but the logic is the same. all of them, in the end, became plot devices that had their own story and identity erased for the sake of fueling another “superior” character.

          and this is why i personally don’t see Dany = Nissa Nissa as being at the same level, or as a plot device. a plot turning point? yes, definitely. a plot device, no, because i personally don’t think this erases her story and identity and purpose. again, let me reiterate that this is based on what Artie and i have plotted — i cannot talk for what might have happened in the show, or what may happen in the books — because it will depend on the process they follow to lead to this potential outcome. Artie and i have a very long, very complex plot when it comes to shipping Jon and Dany. we consider every single detail, and we’re always mindful of not erasing anything from the other’s muse. and, in our case, Dany would be a sacrifice, yes, but never a plot device. she would give her life for the purpose of forging the only weapon able to destroy the Night King and ending the Long Night — NEVER for the purpose of glorifying Jon and make him emerge from this tale as the hero who saved us all. if anything, i think no one will disagree if i say that staying alive after killing your lover by your own hand is far from being a happier ending when compared to said lover who died. it is a sacrifice for Dany, who loses her life, and it is a sacrifice for Jon, who stays alive but loses literally everything else that gave meaning to his life. and this is why i love the prophecy/legend of Lightbringer, actually, because it is based on a meaningful tragedy. it’s mutual sacrifice, it’s having a bond so strong that it is the catalyst to save this world.

          just to conclude now, if you ask me: are more female characters, compared to male characters, used as plot devices? i have no doubt of this. are more female characters used with the single purpose of fueling male characters’ pain? i have no doubt of this. are more female characters erased and belittled for the sake of glorifying male characters and put them under a positive light? i have no doubt of this. trust me, nonnie, no one in this world hates Agony Targaryen more than i do. no one in this world hates more the way in which my favorite character was portrayed as someone who’s only good and honorable when a character like Daenerys has to be ruined and removed. and i will say this to my dying breath: this thing is NOT Jon Snow and it makes me genuinely sad that people may for even a second believe this thing is anything resembling Jon Snow. i am the first one being here to vehemently (to use your word) criticize all of this, which is exactly why i have gone majorly show divergent — even during s07 i was already stating i would never acknowledge the annulment, exactly because i would never want Elia Martell to be a plot device in this regard. and please note: i’m not saying any of this to make myself look good — look at me i’m such a great guy i respect women! — i respect women, and female characters, because they DESERVE to be respected. and everything i have ditched from show!canon, i did because these amazing characters deserve so much better, and my amazing roleplay buddies who write these amazing characters deserve so much better, AND Jon Snow, my favorite character whom i love dearly, deserves so much better than to be turned into D&D’s sad puppet.

          i really hope i answered your question, friend? tl;dr — i am vehemently against Agony killing Dany in the show the way it was done, because it reduces Daenerys to a plot device and reduces Jon to someone who can only have merit if other characters become plot devices in his favor. on the other hand, in the scenario where Jon is Azor Ahai reborn and Dany is Nissa Nissa reborn, i personally see it at a completely different level, even if the outcome is technically the same — because it is a scenario highly plotted and developed by myself and Artie, and because exactly we are always very mindful to never do this to these characters whom we both love. obviously she loves Dany more and understands her better, and i love Jon more and i understand him better, but this is why we team up to salvage this ship we love and that was utterly ruined by the show. and this is why the only context where we accept Jon killing Daenerys is for the ultimate purpose of tempering Lightbringer — where Dany chooses her fate, and Jon endures the consequences of his actions.

BONUS POINTS:

          so, because we are a partnership, i shared this ask and my own response with Artie — to get her opinion as someone who writes Daenerys and understands her better than i do, as i mentioned above, and also to have her perspective as a woman. the next points, therefore, are credited to @zcldrizes to complement my own:

          Firstly, on being a plot device. I think the important thing about this is that we as the viewers are wired to look through the lense of Dany to see her as a hero, with an ultimate purpose. We have the entirety of her journey, with a backstory about her struggle for home, the fact she has suffered hardship after hardship. In my opinion, she was born “meant for something more” - and the very existence of her dragons, the fact she’s somewhat fire insensitive, all proves that she is not quite normal, compared to everyone around her. Her own journey and arc have been not just about finding home, but restoring and living up to her family’s name, and making a difference in the world through whatever ways she chooses, whether that be liberation, or saving innocent people. Her death in Season 8 served no purpose for her arc, other than to neatly line up what they needed for Jon’s storyline. Her madness in Season 8 served no purpose, other than allowing a mostly male council to choose their new male overlord, after condemning her as mad when overrun with grief. But if she was Nissa Nissa, and sacrificed her life not for Jon’s manpain, but to save the entire world, and in a way that leaves her the true hero of the story, then I think that means she’s not just a plot device. She’s a hero. And no, I don’t think she’s just driving that plot; I think the point is she made a difference to the world.

          Secondly, and the more important part of this - show canon removes her female autonomy, assuming she’s not in a rational state of mind, and then villainises her for emotion and grief. For it then to have her killed in a moment where she so very clearly places her trust in the man kissing her, a man she clearly loves, removes all autonomy because she didn’t consent to what was coming, and didn’t know it would happen. All of her ability to predict that behaviour is gone, which means she had no knowledge of her death, and thus, the scene occurs in a way that leaves those rules particularly unbalanced. A Nissa Nissa scenario is something she consents to; something she wants because it’s right, and it’ll save the world, and this is the most important thing. Daenerys gets to choose to die saving the world she wanted to build. 

          Finally, on the outcome and whether or not this is just to be more feminist friendly and socially acceptable. The first thing to note is that the outcome isn’t the same. In one, she dies after going mad because her male counterpart has deemed her unsafe to live with how insane she is. In the other, she dies to save the world - and importantly, consents to doing so. And depending on the way the rest of the thread runs, I suspect it would be very well known what she gave up in order to keep the people of the Seven Kingdoms safe. So rather than this being to get the traction of anyone saying this isn’t a sexist ending, consider: yes, it’s a socially acceptable ending, but only because it acknowledges the strength of women in whatever they do to contribute to the world. Daenerys deserved better than to die as a rabid dog for the slaughter; but in saying that, an extraordinary woman deserved an extraordinary death, and what better way than dying saving the world?

          Finally, feminism celebrates choice in all forms - Dany would have chosen to die as Nissa Nissa, and if that empowered her, we shouldn’t condemn that.

[aotopmha]

1/2 I know you guys love to find excuses for every Eren's action, but why Eren had to talk with Reiner? What purpose he had beside serving excuses for what he's about to do? Why he needed there Falco? Why transform inside building and throw rocks everywhere? You guys think he wants to rescue everyone and it's true as long as you consider everyone as his allies and his friends. He's exactly the kind of a man who would sacrifice thousands for a hundred to live on.

2/2 He’s ready to watch the world burn for a chance that his people will live free one day. I expected more from a man who knows every mystery of the world, who has all knowledge about their past mistakes. You like to repeat it was the only way, but how can you be so sure about it? Rhetoric questions doesn’t help either in understanding Eren’s decisions.

—–

I’m going point by point on this one.

1) I need to emphasize this again, but I’m not aiming to excuse anything Eren has done. I know there probably are people that are, but I need to emphasize that I’m not. We straight-up see the corpses of the civilians Eren has killed and other characters point his actions out, which means the story isn’t excusing him, either.

(Chapter 102 - Neither Eren or Mikasa look very happy about what they’re doing. They both do understand the weight and horror of the actions taken here.)

2) The scene with Reiner and Falco is there to show that Eren isn’t being a bloodthirsty genocidial maniac. It’s there to give nuance to his actions. He called Reiner into the building full of civilians to make him hesitate and take him out of the equation. It is a pretty manipulative action, but that’s how war works - it’s similar to Armin’s manipulation of Annie and for them to do something, they can’t play nice here.

We are shown and told that Eren aimed for the military personnel above all else once he transforms - so there is reason and purpose to his actions other than plain destruction. The logic I see here is that this in turn leads to the weakening of Marley’s military, which in turn might lead to the destruction of the whole system. This is the interpretation I personally get from looking at the context of what came before in terms of the story’s themes, the general information we are given of Marley and what we know of Eren’s character. I feel like it should be noted we don’t actually have the full picture of the plan and the story’s judgement of it, which is why some people excuse him and why some people villainize him… and we never might actually get one considering the themes of the story.     

(Chapter 100 - These pages are probably some of the most important ones in the whole series because this is Eren acknowledging the people he is fighting are human, just as those within the walls. The story itself makes sure to show both sides in the same light, too: equally human. He is not fighting here because of a oath of revenge, but only for his people and his friends to survive, as the ending of chapter 102 said - this is a battle about survival.)

3) I’m not arguing it’s the “only” way Eren could’ve done things, either. This is simply the way “he” saw as right in the moment, which also has it’s own thematic importance in the story.

(Chapter 27 - This is the logic Eren was so obviously operating under while he lured Reiner into the building full of civilains. I think he was sincere with Reiner and understood him, but he still had to somehow get him out of the equation because he is a very dangerous enemy in this situation. This logic eventually wore Erwin down emotionally down, too. So I expect to see something like that from Eren, as well. Sometimes you just have to put your humanity aside to get something like this done and sacrifices have to be made. Is it “right”? No, it’s not. But it is “one” option they have - not the “only one”, but one option among many that Eren chose - I think it should also be noted we also don’t know if this is just Eren’s plan here considering the SL seems to be acting according to a plan and they seem in sync.)

This is the other element that plays a role here:

(Chapter 25 - The more I think about it, the more kind of a brillaint character detail it is that Levi got this perspective from Erwin in ACWNR because this is the exact logic most of the SL’s choices are based on. Luring Annie out in Stohess lead to the deaths of another 100 civilains. Levi probably could’ve killed Annie back in the forest, but he chose not to. Levi ultimately chose to let Erwin die. The uncertainty of your choices is a pretty obvious thematic element at this point and I think this is the other element Eren is operating under. He hopes this all will eventually work out for the best.)

4) To bring all of these elements together, Eren’s perspective is meant to be flawed, just as the perspective of the Marleyan Eldians is supposed to be flawed. Maybe Eren *could’ve* found another, perhaps better way, but the current solution is the one that Eren found and what’s done is done. Chapter 102′s title “Too little, too late” even reflects that thematic idea and they have to find the best solution considering the circumstances they have currently.

It’s straight-up stated Eren’s tactics could potentially make things much worse - this is subtly the biggest gamble puilled in the whole story so far.

In contrast, Tybur’s plan involves making 100,000s of innocent people scapegoats to fix how the world sees the Eldians in Marley, which is equally morally questionable. The Marleyan Eldians contribute to keeping up the system because they are incapable of seeing the flaws in it because of their upbringing (as Eren says, Reiner and co were ignorant children raised by ignorant adults).

Even if Eren knows the truth about what is going on with the Eldians and Marleyans, the situation is still very complicated, so it only makes sense his actions wouldn’t be the most “right”. His father’s and Kruger’s memories don’t make him omnipotent.   

I think this is a very complicated situation the story is tackling in a meta sense, too and I simply disagree with the “These guys are good.” and “These guys are evil.” perspective some people seem to have on it. My argument is not that Eren hasn’t done anything wrong, it’s that Eren’s character and the story are more complex than that.

Thank you for the ask!

[leonum-matrem-blog]

META ON BEING CHALLENGED TO ORDER AND JAIME’S LEAVING I trust in Lena Headey’s acting, not in D&D’s writing. Thus the only reason I am giving this any thought. And then special shoutout to @cerseilionesslannister for helping me with the Cersei and Jaime scene and helping me regain perspective on Cersei’s mental state of this and how this should be view rather than a YAY! BREAK UP TIME. And how logic really is concerning this subject. AND ALSO META-ING WITH ME IN OUR TEXT MESSAGES. Bless your heart okay. Scarlett. This is as much your meta as it is mine. Seriously.

         When Cersei was challenged by both brothers to kill them there were two different things that happened. One of which affected the other. After Tyrion had done it, it became a matter of broken pride. Once a challenge was issued by Jaime, it was tinged with a sense of betrayal by the one who had promised her always that he would be there for her. First I want to take apart the Tyrion scene, take apart the Jaime scene, and what would drive Cersei to do the things that she does. Again, I am not condoning D&D but more so relying on my faith in Lena Headey.

      First and foremost I want to point out how Cersei is always, at this point , throwing herself into the tactics to keep the iron throne. She was once a mother of all three, and now they are all gone. Every thing that she is doing is an extra way for her to push her grief away for them. Unhealthy coping mechanisms aside this makes her angrier, more colder, and taking that final step to be like the man she has always wanted to be like. (see. Tywin Lannister.)  And Cersei never talks about her children because it’s too painful so when that Tyrion scene came up I literally teared up. Anywho-

      TYRION:

       It’s so easy to dismiss this relationship as evil sister and pour innocent man. But we all know that this relationship is so much more complicated than that when you start digging into the roots. And we find that Cersei’s reasoning isn’t all that horrible, we discover the WANT to love him like a little brother. Then we discover that Tyrion hasn’t exactly been acting like a sweet little lamb. Cersei has her flaws, I’ve always state this, but so does Tyrion. We all know this. OKAY. SO. Since I am keeping this ONE scene without changing anything (aside for a tiny piece of dialogue at the end about the wrath)

       So I want to talk about the interesting part for me; so HERE is the timestamp. Look closely at Cersei’s expression while Tyrion challenges her to finally kill him. And don’t misunderstand the silence, she is deeply considering just ending his life right then and there. And really? What’s to stop her? Cersei has LITERALLY been expressing her need to see him die since the very day he was born? While it was impulsive grief in the beginning it quickly formed into a living form of paranoia due to the prophecy. He had killed her mother, and father, and she had just laid Myrcella and Tommen’s death at his feet. She wants nothing MORE than to kill him right then and there. Her eyes flick to him- considering, reveling, and hungry. And then her eyes flick up to Ser Gregor and there is a moment where she just thinks to herself; how easy it would be just to smash his little head. And the urge takes over and oh how she wants to see it down. She had needed this done all this time, all these years, and she thinks of all of his mockery and his cruel japes. And moves to give that one order she has dreamed to speak.

       Only she doesn’t.

      And that makes her angry. She twitches, almost smiles, and breathes in. The URGE is THERE but she can’t bring herself to do it. After all of this time and all of these years of dreaming of killing him, a willing sacrifice she would make to void out the prophecy. And she can’t bring herself to do it. Instead the order dies on her tongue and she throws herself back, and quickly looks away. Now why is that? Why didn’t she kill him after promising him every day of his life that she would do it the first chance she had? Why is that she looks away and chooses to let him go? Even while they go RIGHT back to disagreeing when she refuses to drink? These are interesting points in all honesty and it was something that I had actually noticed in my reading of A Clash of Kings, it’s something I noticed in every scene that Cersei and Tyrion have together in the show.

      Cersei wants to love him like a genuine little brother. The NEED to care for him is there, the want to love him like family has never went away. He killed her mother, her father, and is blamed for her youngest children’s deaths. But- he DID love them, and that is one thing that she cannot deny him. We notice that when he mentions them again her fight is gone. She starts to say- “i will not hear-’ lowly but he cuts her off and says  “I don’t care I LOVED them. You know I did. You know it in your heart if there is anything left of it.” and it doesn’t matter how mean she got after- it as the very fact that she LET him cut her off and LET him finish speaking. And then after their usual style of conversation has begun, when all of the anger and the tension and the words had gotten out. Their tone had faded back into the tone that it held back when Tyrion was the Hand of the King under Joffrey, and that was a need to love your youngest/eldest sibling sitting across from you.

       JAIME:

     Let’s flash back for a moment to the moment that Cersei announced to Jaime that she was pregnant. She told him, never betray me again right here. Let’s consider for a moment what just happened. Jaime had met with Tyrion, a man who is openly conspiring to have them all thrown from power without consulting her first. 

      Alright now let’s consider the fact that Cersei is indeed PREGNANT here in this scene, as Scarlett and I discussed IN THIS POST RIGHT HERE, we have to realize first that Cersei’s body is going through the beginning stages of change when it comes to having a child. All of which included and it not limited to any of the following;

Regular Nausea and vomiting

Sore and tender breasts

fatigue

full bladder, or as scarlett put it, having to literally pee all the time

heartburn, and acid reflux

diarrhea and/or constipation

mood swings

bad headaches/migraines

new levels of anxiety.

      So on top of all of the normal feelings of anxiety (including that which has stemmed since she was a child), worry over the well being of her child and herself, PTSD over the abuse suffered at Robert’s hand, denied grief over losing THREE children, there is all of the experience of the physical changes of pregnancy listed above, and anxieties over Jaime leaving her to go into battle while she is going through these.changes all on her own, a pregnancy through war time, and a pregnancy that has it’s own dangers of not going well.

      Now that we have the physical and emotional aspects noted, lets move onto the mentality.

      What was Cersei and Jaime thinking? I’ll tell you first and foremost; THIS WAS NOT A BREAK UP! CERSEI AND JAIME HAVE NOT BEEN TOGETHER FOR OVER 30 YEARS JUST TO LEAVE EACH OTHER NOW. THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO LOVE ANYONE ELSE EVEN IF THEY HAD WANTED TOO. 

      Anyway, to put it simply their end goals were the same, only each had different intentions of doing so. And to put that to words exactly. Would the one word; Survive. Yet each had their own idea in doing so. Let’s remember THE most important aspect of Cersei’s character that makes up a HUGE part of who she is. And that is her role as a mother, Cersei cherishes her children above ALL else. And her intentions here is thinking of the child she is soon to have. I’ve said, Scarlett has said, we all know this, that Cersei would DIE for her children. But now that she has lost her first three, this next child that is growing inside of her is far more important because it is all that she has left. The prophecy never told Cersei of a fourth child born to her, and unlike so many other times. Cersei has a major hand of power to play for this, to protect this one light that she has left in this cruel world.  She has a kingdom, she has Lannister men at her beck and call, she has MORE coming from across the sea, all that she could dream to keep her child safe.

      “Yes the monsters exist. But let them fight each other.” were along the lines of what she said. Cersei is literally modeling her decision after what Tywin Lannister had done when the Rebellion had occurred. And by protecting HERSELF- she is protecting the only thing that mattered in the world at this moment. The thing that is far more important than even the power that she had pursued all of her life. And that is her child growing inside of her.

      Again; JAIME IS NOT HAVING A REALIZATION THAT CERSEI IS INSANE, or that she is ‘wrong’ for him, or he is ‘tired’ of her. Jaime literally does what he ALWAYS has been able to do when Cersei threatens him, when Cersei slaps him. He calls out her shit because he KNOWS that she loves him so much that she never means any of it. Be it playing, or having an argument ,he literally calls Cersei out so much and that is all this was. Jaime has literally been spending the entire series (both book AND show) acknowledging how she is and refusing to budge from her side. (even when he is angry at her at the end of the series, his thoughts STILL revolve around Cersei.)

       When he speaks his plan is to protect her, her reign, and their child, through direct battle. There is no interior motives happening here. All intentions are on the board, nothing hidden between the two of them. What secret Cersei DOES have she spills to Jaime, which ensues their next disagreement. Which our main Jaime touches upon a little IN THIS POST. (Not to mention that Jaime is also going through his own grief, PTSD, and mental anxieties). His plan is literally going in the order of; protecting the Realm, for his own form of honor, and the reign of Cersei and their child. All the while resotring the family name and relationships with Cersei. (and sure yes, Tyrion). All the while Cersei wants to protect their own, the legacy she promised for their child, and relationships with Jaime. While each is aiming toward the same end goal, the road toward said end goal is viewed differently from both Jaime and Cersei.

      Both are aiming toward the restoration of their family, for the safety of their child that is yet to be born. This is not one casting off the other, or washing their hands of the dirty evil one at their back. And neither is there anything that has ever existed called the REDEMPTION ARC, it’s not back on, and it was never on in the first place? Because Jaime is literally doing what he is doing FOR Cersei, FOR their child. As he said in his very own words;

     ‘you don’t matter- CERSEI matters, and i will kill every Tully if I have to, to get back to her.’