#and all the other romo shippers

[random-human-being2311]

this doctor who fanfic solving The Gay Fanfic Dilemma of same-pronoun vagueness by having the doctor go exclusively by they/them is the best way to go about it.

[eggdrawsthings]

I love aroace Din so much!! As an aroace person myself, I identified so much with Din's general lack of attraction and wanting to just do his silly little side quests. He also doesn't have any canon love interests. The show and the BTS never explicitly show or imply that he's had any relations or interest (assuming that he was into Omera, Xi'an or Bo-Katan is all good for shipping but that's never been confirmed by canon or its intent). It's so interesting that we have a main character from Star Wars that's never been given a love interest. The only other character I know who wasn't given any is Luke Skywalker (someone I HC as aroace too).

So yeah. Even though season 3 wasn't well liked by many fans, I was very happy with the last scene of the finale because it ended with Din owning his own cabin (away from any prying neighbors) with his formally adopted son and apprentice Grogu 💕

totally agree with all of your points haha. to me he only has enough head space for his gremlin son, his ship, and his code (and maybe running away from cops asjdhla). everything else doesn't matter much.

🚨rant alert🚨

also i'm a true hater of the din & bo katan ship. idm omera and xi'an much cuz yeah there are hints of sth there in canon. but he clearly just wanna go about his day and be left alone in peace. bro pledges allegiance to 2 ppl and everyone just assumes he has feelings for them like???? no hate to the shippers tho, do what u like this is just me being me. I just hate it when they push their ship onto me when i already said that i don't care and don't want to draw any of that lol

anw sr for the rant. I'm so glad to find another aroace Din truther here! my blog is a safe place to no romo Mando so enjoy your stay ^^

[dotthings]

I've been so tuned out of spn and spn fandom happenings, I didn't even learn until just now that some weeks back Jared said at a CE con that he wishes they'd done more with Eileen.

Now I'm laughing. The unintentional comedy stylings of Jared P*d*l*cki, everyone!

Not even mad, tbh. Just remembering his disregard for the character and the Sam/Eileen relationship. How he made comments speaking for Dean pov in a way that flatly contradicted every statement Dean himself ever made rooting for Sam and Eileen, but canon, what's that? Dean who? Dean's actual self-evident hopes, the fact that Dean was the #1 Saileen shipper, totally irrelevant when brosonlies are in a panic about Sam or Dean having anyone, anyone at all, anyone whatsoever, besides only each other.

Watching them scramble frantically a few weeks back when Jared dropped this wish for more Eileen to deny that more Sam/Eileen relationship stuff is even possible also greatly amuses me. "Jared only meant Eileen not Sam/Eileen!!!" lmfao okay?? Breathe!!! LOL

I really loved Saileen but I'll be glad either way just to get Eileen back, while the brosonly Sam stans will be screeching with rage because "spn is only about Sam and Dean not SIDE CHARACTERS *raeg raeg*" after they performatively virtue signaled about how much they love Eileen so long as she doesn't get her icky gross cooties breathing too close to Sam.

They also kept slamming all the Saileen shippers, going on and on how anyone who shipped Saileen was only doing it as part of some nefarious plot to keep Sam away from Dean and no other reason. Meanwhile, the Sam and Eileen dynamic was absolutely delightful, it's one of the best relationships Sam ever had, Jared and Shoshannah had lovely chemistry, I enjoyed every Sam and and Eileen moment. Wow yes how monstrous of me, I enjoyed seeing Sam with a layered, good-hearted human who worked well with him and cared about him and they related to each other and they were good together!! What in the evil Sam hatred!!! LMFAO

Anyone who was on twitter at the time may also remember how they spewed hatred against the ship, gatekeeping, romance shaming, and spewing no-romo and anti-romo hatred, because Eileen somehow would no longer count as a badass female character if she's having sex with Sam, and then they tried to dress their ship hate up as progressive because of how it would supposedly "demean" Eileen.

All of which went in full contradiction of the statements of Shoshannah Stern, a deaf actor playing a deaf character, who spoke in interviews at length about how important it was not only that Eileen was a kickass hunter but why it was significant having a disabled character in a romance with one of the lead heroes on a notable genre tv series.

Meanwhile, the Sam stan twitter brigade pretending to be progressive: "ew icky gross"

As for Jared, yeah, this is just COMEDY. He wasn't supportive, now suddenly he's talking about how he's sorry there wasn't more Eileen. Okay, dude.

He also said he was sorry there wasn't more Michael Dean and same thing. Where was he when Jensen needed support, when that storyline was cut off, and when the ending screwed Dean over while Jared got what he wanted, and when most of his base which pretty much hates everyone who isn't Sam and Dean, got what they wanted.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be thrilled if we can have Eileen back in the revival. I don't know if this means we will or not. But I'm all for it. Yes please let's!!! I just don't think there's substance behind Jared changing his tune. And he did nothing to discourage the hatred from his own base against her and against the ship, and then eagerly went along with how the final eps of spn pandered to their desire for her character and that relationship to be wiped from the story.

[findafight]

R/nance shippers are some of the first to scream homophobia/lesbophobia if you disagree with them or point out the Steve of it all, but they're the first in line to vilify Vickie, a canonically sapphic character, because she gets in the way of their ship.

It's so silly tbh. Like the ship someone likes (that doesn't erase a character's sexuality) has any say on whether or not some is/isn't homophobic.

Everybody loves pure of heart, dumb of ass and lesbian friendship until that lesbian loves her bff more than the possibility of a romantic relationship lol.

And yep. I think this is the first time I've seen a fandom vilify a female character that's a canon love interest who is getting in the way of a non canon gay ship when the gay ship is also two women. Claiming she has no personality when we see her have a similar sense of humour to Robin and Steve, like a movie Steve likes, get a bit nervous talking to a cute girl and rambling a bit, breaking up with her boyfriend because he refused to stay and help their hometown after a natural disaster. She's loyal and funny and brave. She's not the same as Robin, she does have a personality, (saying she doesn't have one and then also saying saying she's just a copy of Robin shifted to the left is also sus like.. what do they think of Robin, then?) And the fact that Vickie is canonically wlw!! Bi queen!!!

Something about it feels hinky to me. Especially when some people insisting Nancy is a lesbian do it. Now, that is a fine and reasonable HC, but acting like her relationships with men, regardless of her actual attraction to them, meant nothing to her is also not it. She chose those relationships, and while it may have been comphet, they still mattered to her? They were still people she trusted and was close to. (Honestly, exploring how those were still meaningful to her but the romantic/sexual aspects were not what she wanted from life/realizing she's gay could be interesting.)

It mostly boils down to folks valuing Romo ships above any other significant relationships, and that if it wasn't romantic and there wasn't sexual attraction, then obviously it didn't mean anything. And also possibly biphobia (especially concerning Vickie!)

I'm fine with people shipping different things, ship and let ship, I can avoid things I don't like, but acting like Steve is an irrelevant part of both Nancy and Robin's lives mischaracterizes all three of them, and saying that it would be a non issue makes it boring. At least be interesting with it! I'm not even saying Steve would have a problem with it, but that Robin would because while Steve can downplay how hurt he was by Nancy, and blame himself, Robin would at least see how bad the relationship ended and wouldn't want to rub salt in that wound. I think Steve would be more worried about Nancy hurting Robin and/or lying about how much the relationship means to her than he would be hurt, through he would have every right to be. After all, he most likely doesn't know he was cheated on, but he does know Nancy said she loved him when she didn't.

It's one of those ships that makes waaaay more sense if it's at least five years from canon (and even then it doesn't make sense to me unless it's reconnecting, because I don't see Nancy staying close to anyone in Hawkins once she gets out).

Everybody has their headcanon etc, but I think fandom is much more fun when there's a balance and Romo ships aren't prioritized over platonic ones, especially platonic ones that are canonically incredibly important to the characters

[officialgleamstar]

hello travis! i have never been super invested or interested in any specific dndads ships (except oakworthy but thats different because its less that i ship them and more like im watching a car crash and cant look away) but i always love seeing you talk about ur ships. ummm ive seen you talk about normscary i think? maybe? anyways yeah if you wanna talk about them this is your excuse lol :]

OAKWORTHY REALLY IS A CAR CRASH YOU CANT LOOK AWAY FROM. i think its fair to not be too into shipping!! i am just a hopeless romantic and also have just like. wanted to be a romance novelist on and off for a long time so HKJFDHGJKFHGJKD shipping comes naturally to me ... though thinking back. maybe shipping came before the romance novelist aspiration

ANYWAYS. normscary my sisyphus boulder normscary?? my beloveds??? oh my god i could say so much about normscary. warning for some spoilers going forward for recent episodes!!!

nyx has been taunting me (affectionate) by sending me a lot of queerplatonic normscary content so i have been thinking about them a LOT recently... obviously i am a . more . romantic shipper for them but I DO REALLY THINK. CANONICALLY. they lean very queerplatonic and i absolutely ADORE that <33 they have such a neat dynamic to me and i love watching them bounce off of each other. to me they are akin to the two cardinals in my backyard that fight constantly but are never seen apart.

in a general sense, qp or romo or whatever strange other thing they are, i think normscary mostly appeals to me because they are so defensive of each other in canon. normal never gives up on scary, even when she is frustrating him beyond all belief. scary LITERALLY SAID that only SHE is allowed to be mean to normal which is just SO. THAT IS LIKE. LITERALLY A ROMANCE CLICHE BUT WHATEVER. I WAS REGULAR AND WELL-GROUNDED ABOUT THAT, BETH MAY (obligatory "its also a cliche for friendships"). even as their friendship has gone through such a rough patch, when scary got the last anchor, normal went in to comfort scary alone. he did not push her and just provided all the help he could give to her, was there for her, made sure she wasnt overwhelmed and that scary had a private space to express her feelings if she needed to. that entire moment was EVERYTHING TO ME. SHAKING QUAKING HYPERVENTILATING.

and of course i am obsessed with them swapping shoes in the newest episode <3333 they wear the same clothing size to me . they just do

[incarnateirony]

For those wondering if the die-hard antis will finally pack it in if we get canon Destiel in a way even they can't deny--I wouldn't hold my breath. If they are forced to accept canon Destiel they'll just make up some bogus reason for why it is 'homophobic, achsually', just like they did with Cas's confession and with Carlos.

It's the sunk cost fallacy. These people have created a whole identity and a community, such as it is, around hating Destiel. They will never, ever reconsider. As for canon, let me tell you: I come from a het ship fandom where the couple kissed on the mouth on screen and the antis were writing thinkpieces about why it was a 'friendly kiss', or a 'kiss of gratitude'. So even if the coconuts do collide, brace yourself, cause even that won't be enough.

What I'm trying to say is, let's make our win what we can get on TV, not what we can get the antis to admit, cause that's a lost cause. Let them wallow in their crackpot theories and metas and just enjoy TW :)

Tale as old as time. Whether that be the No Romos of X Files Mulder and Scully that platsplained their marriage and kid; the raging homophobes arguing with the memory of Diana Ross and the drag queens that inspired her about what I'm Coming Out is "actually about" in the youtube comments TO THIS DAY, and so on.

It's a goalpost--and frankly, dogwhistle even within "shipping fandom", some true bitters and others manipulators like 2po and their groups with the agenda in your ask--that I've warned about for many years.

In many ways, it's already been run out. Names like 2po, or jess of Mary Sue, that pretended to be so very in the know. Yelled I was delusional, claimed they had better access to Bobo to know his intent than I did (Jess.) But I could spend a week listing the reasons I knew what I knew was Real and a Fact no matter what they screamed, and not be done. And it was real.

They spent that time revving old shippers into attacking-down their low visibility text, making up some fandom noise rule that, if it isn't so loud it can't be argued with (imaginary point), it's subtext, and anything low visibility was "settling"--an attack whistle used to send hellers at me when I said Berens was putting his best faith work in for us, and even if he couldn't run it, to respect what he pushed and weaved through into textual canon, even if quiet.

After all, he almost quit season 14. Wayward was toast, his contract was rolling. He only signed again shortly after Ouroboros, maybe within a month. Because he'd been convinced to stay even while Yockey burned out and left an empty throne, to run that ball on a spiral someone recognized his endeavors on and further sort of mapped the way. On a gift. To a friend. To ride that spiral till the end so we might go where no one had been.

Covid crashed many dreams, including his second sprint. But not everybody gave up. But all those years, this whole damn time, this forged mistruth about the authors. These lies and filth and biases that buried this, and continued to bury this. The propaganda that spews from 2po to make, say, hellers feel like they're the second class citizens now.

But even by the end of SPN, we had all but won without covid giving Singer time to jam the game. Berens had the rest of the room with him. And even when we scraped our knees we got the most unlikely ally imaginable. A jensen ackles that couldn't sleep, couldn't let go, couldn't move on. a jensen ackles that knew dean winchester's story wasn't done, and was now deeply haunted by the way things ended with Castiel. He'd had his own enlightening, staring a universe-shaking performance in the face and adding the pieces together. And Jensen Ackles... 404ed and forgot his lines, barely muttered anything adjacent to the script, and wept on the floor. And into the winter.

And this entire time. People are still tearing him apart. Even as he hires the most powerful possible LGBTQ advocate to run his entire company, someone the president of WB even fears, able to unleash all of the gays of DC on the WB with a trigger pull, if Glen Winter isn't enough to back them down in general. Not that there IS a "them", because Zaslav's management leaves Jensen and Renee in charge.

That old world is gone. Big scary network and studio changes happened but we're still here, no matter what false prophet doomsayers said. And the gays have the reigns and there's nobody to tell them to stop, and jensen's the one slapping the horse on the ass now and telling Robbie to ride faster.

For those that really have foraged out the truth of transitions in the last 4 years or so, it's clear as a bell what's going on. But people like those you describe thrive on relevance created by people being compelled to argue them in mass, rather than laugh them off for absurdity. They did it with Mulder and Scully and they're doing it here in the middle of The Great Destiel Sprint, all from imagined perspectives in their minds.

These perspectives have failed them again, and again, and again, but like you said, they don't course correct. Sunken cost. And that cost is that, they have years of sins against them. It's not even just about the ship. These people spent millions, these people sent threats and shards and weapons to people, they've doxxed actors and fans and entire servers alike and felt righteous about it. And in the end when it Is What Is Is, even if they were to accept it HAPPENED.

The ability to process the meaning after--and that they are, in fact, the Akrida, and the unwanted locusts being flushed out--that'll just join the mountain of other things under the rug, with each person setting their embarrassment tolerance threshold of how stupid thy'll make the long term no romo arguments. Even as the showrunners constantly remind you the old series was bromance but THIS one is romance. It says it on the tin. And the posters. And the promos.

I have a feeling a bunch WILL leave, because some will hit their limit on how stupid they're willing to present them as in public. I expect a bunch of them to end up ripping each other apart, then it'll settle and the sad, sad last stragglers will make whatever new mewling sounds of denial, but we won't hear the starving strays, they're getting trampled by the clown parade worse than mufasa in the gorge.

[gg-selvish]

over time u keep mentioning stuff that makes me like 'whoa my individual life is not so unique and we are not so different, u & i :O' /pos like, dsmp, plus the raven cycle, plus a history of Mavin?!? of all fcking things????? what a world what a world anyway i nod and 'same hat' at your posts a lot & this makes me hold a certain casual warmth in my soul for u (no romo) so i hope you're well!!

omg thats so cool!!!!! its always interesting when i meet people in my current fandom who have the same kind of trail they followed to get to where they are. lmaoooooo not only did i ship mavin but i was an ot6 og fahc shipper... mavin + the lads were always my faves but most of the fic i read was ot6 and a liiiiiiiittle bit of joelay too as a treat. for trc i read the first 4 books a few years ago and then binged the dreamer trilogy in a couple of weeks. despite all of the pynch i reblog i was actually a ronsey shipper in the first arc and the only 'ship' i cared about in the second arc was matthew & declan's familial bond and their story together as brothers. surprise surprise theres not a lot of fic for that so i never really got into the FANDOM for trc like i have with other interests. oops this got longer than i wanted it too. anyway hi thats cool thanks for sharing love u bye!!!!!!

[rockingthegraveyard]

For the character ask game, you know I have to ask Tobirama.

favorite thing about them

The relationship he has with his brother isn't perfect but he clearly loves him. Tobirama can be antagonistic and honestly mean to him (natural younger sibling trait) yet he respects and love his brother to the point where he starts to become fond of Naruto just because Naruto reminds him of Hashirama. (Though some of the ways he is "mean" is just because Tobirama is a blunt individual who will say what he means without the intention of being hurtful even if it is in the end. And some of the way's he's "mean" is because he's a bitch and I love that for him.)

least favorite thing about them

I think a lot of Tobirama fans seem to shy away from it but he is kind of a hateful individual. He dresses it up in stoicism and logical thinking and maybe he even believes he isn't but Tobirama hates. I DO think Tobirama hated the Uchiha, I think he would say other wise but he was born in a war with them, he lost his family to them. He may even felt like his own brother chose them over him when he was too young to see it as anything else. But another problem is he was warped by the shinobi system before it was even implemented and pushed his emotions so far down that he "couldn't" hate the Uchiha because shinobi had no use for such an emotion. In my head things were getting better towards the end (largely due to Kagami) and he was able to see the people beyond the clan but then his brother died and he was on a fast track towards death himself and drowned himself in work so any relations that could have bloomed between them died but that's neither here nor there.

favorite line

brOTP

I love the idea of Mito and Tobirama being best friends. Especially if it results in something like - Hashirama "please stop stealing my wife" Tobirama "grow a brain and maybe it wouldn't be so easy" -cause, you know, sibling culture.

OTP

Madatobi, baby!

nOTP

All the rest of the ships but especially when it comes to with his students (both his genin team and hokage team). MDTB shipper that I am, I'm often very "no romo" when it comes to Tobirama. However if the art is good 👀

random headcanon

The fur collar of his armor is to give him an intimidating, feral appearance on the battle field and not because he find comfort in soft things. He is a hardened shinobi who definitely doesn't indulge, on occasions, to obtain soft fabrics and blankets for his room where no one can see him with his face smooshed in it when he's in bed.

unpopular opinion

Maybe there can be fics where Tobirama is forced to confront his hatred, why it's there and healing from the trauma that caused it instead of it always making it like Tobirama just doesn't hate anyone and the only reason people assume he does is because he's a blunt????????? To be more mean, the whole “Tobirama did nothing wrong” take is bad and just as annoying as anti-Tobirama posts.

song i associate with them

Science vs. Romance by Rilo Kiley  I used to think If I could realize I'd die Then I would be a lot nicer Used to believe In a lot more Now I just see straight ahead

(sifts through angst songs and picking the one silly-ish one)

favorite picture of them

Remember when they’re beating Hurizen’s ass?? Good times. (I couldn’t choose a favorite, there are many I love.)

[frumfrumfroo]

Can "masculine" and "feminine" Fandom ever truly coexist or are they always destined for conflict? Everything I've seen indicates that even if it only happens in a passive-aggressive way,, they will always fight until one pushes out or marginalizes the other (and the creators will probably take sides).

I think they do co-exist all the time. For example Star Trek and DBZ both have huge fandoms of both temperaments, despite the common stereotype that they're ploty techy manly franchises for boys and only male nerds like them. TOS invented shipping fandom as we know it. Nor is there usually much tension between the two camps. It's just that the streams don't really cross; fic/meta/shipping fandom is over here and speculation/powerlevels/trivia fandom is over there. You can be in both, but you do them separately and usually one is way more 'mainstream' as the face of fans than the other. Doctor Who is the rare case where it's equally infamous for its no-romo anoraks and its die-hard shippers.

The fact that those are ancient, venerable fandoms is probably a factor, because fandom as a whole used to be more compartmentalised. You only hung out in the part that interested you and could engage for years without interacting with anything outside that bubble. Things like zines and webrings and livejournal groups were split up by topic. Although people say the days of mailing lists were more like now because it was a niche and everyone had to scroll past everything. I wasn't there, so these are speculations.

But what's definitely different now is that the fourth wall has been completely demolished and whining on SM can change the direction of multi-billion dollar franchises, so the old need to 'win' fandom and feel like the loudest voice has become something with real stakes. If bullying the 'wrong' audience out of fandom results in your faction being catered to, that incentivises aggressive gatekeeping. Which people already did even back when it was totally delusional to think the creators knew or cared what fandom thought, so having it actually work is going to make it ten thousand time worse. Franchise writing by angry twitter committee is probably going to continue and this will lead to many more pieces of Extruded Movie Product dreck while Disney and Amazon buy up the entire global entertainment industry until the inevitable collapse of mega-budget Branded Content which can’t come soon enough.

Do I expect shipping and emotional analysis fandom will continue to get the shorter end of the stick and be mocked for caring even as being a massive anorak who's memorised every meaningless stat in every issue of Captain Bland's Monotonous Adventure becomes ever more mainstream and acceptable? Yep. But this has never succeeded in pushing shipping out of fandom and while certain kinds of ‘nerdiness’ have become ‘cool’ (much like it’s socially acceptable to obsess about sports but not Magic: the Gathering tournaments), the genuine weirdos still have far more in common with people who write fanfic than they do with the casual audience who are the true target demographic of any big budget film. A lot of the pressure which causes fandom infighting is being exerted from outside and when trends change, the need to guard your terf so that senpai notices you lessens significantly.

Although I should probably take issue with the idea that it’s a ‘both sides’ thing, because I know of no example, ever, of a ‘feminine’ fandom rejecting or trying to drive out ‘masculine’ interests. If you want to talk about who would win in a fight in a shoujo manga or discuss the worldbuilding logic of Labyrinth from a non-metaphorical perspective, absolutely no one in the fandom will have a problem with that. I knew a guy who was super into the ‘lore’ and non-romance plot of Twilight (how? idk), and he got no shit whatsoever for ‘doing it wrong’ from the fans because they did not feel threatened by his perspective.

A lot of these ‘boys club’ fandoms do feel threatened by shippers or literary analysis (because icky lady cooties mostly) and that’s what it comes down to. Same with antis and any other ‘you’re doing fandom wrong!’ group. They are afraid of not being exclusively catered to if they aren’t the overwhelming majority. That’s the only reason there’s conflict. If they weren’t worried about not being the default and not having their worldview constantly validated, they wouldn’t care about us.

[bakageyama-s]

About

Hi there! I'm Bri (she/her) and this is my main blog, where I reblog/post about all of my interests. As a romo-favorable aspec person, there are many posts about the aromantic and asexual spectrums, as well as LGBTQ+ posts in general. I am also an adult, so there may be occasional nsfw posts or posts containing blood, body horror, and injuries, etc. I try to tag all trigger warnings and content warnings, but please let me know if I miss anything or if you would like me to tag anything.

My main interests include interactive fiction (textual and visual), anime, games (otome and MMO/RPGs), and OCs. I may provide a comprehensive list later.

The standard requirements apply, but to be clear, do not interact...

If you are a TERF, transmed, a-phobe, or any other kind of exclusionist.

If you are a pedophile/MAP.

If you are a pro-shipper and don't care about the age gaps, power gaps, or familial relations (yes this includes adopted families and step-families, in addition to blood-related families) between characters you ship.

If you are a minor who does not filter out the nsfw and nsft tags, as those are the tags I will use if I reblog sexual content.

[gemsofthegalaxy]

You said in my tag game that you wanted to be known by your Enjolras/Courfeyrac shipping... Care to elaborate? *lays on their stomach and kicks their feet up expectantly* Personally I ship them as platonic friends-with-benefits (as you might have noticed from my url, I headcanon Enj as aromantic), and I'm really interested! :D

ahhhhhhhhh *clutches a pillow in my lap and gets ready to rant* okay i love to talk about my ships 

When it comes to Enj and Courf, I also do very much enjoy them as platonic friends with benefits, and/or basically queerplatonic partners (along with Combeferre, in the latter case), but I tend to be a romo shipper in my heart of hearts like just in general ^^; sdfgj 

I really enjoy their personalities together- I interpret Courfeyrac as loud and fun, bit silly and #extra, and I interpret Enjolras as someone who comes off as fairly serious & intense, but being fully capable of a decent level of goofiness when his guard is down (or when he’s is not too busy worrying over every social issue ever), and generally being at his most chaotic with Courfeyrac

I like to see both Combeferre and Courfeyrac as being rocks for Enjolras (well, and each other, and him them), though they have very different approaches to grounding. Combeferre is, of course, the sensible one and the impulse control, meanwhile without him Courf and Enj are liable to cut off the sleeves on all their t-shirts. So, I think they’re a fun dynamic with and without Ferre nearby, for that reason LOL. 

Yeah I basically really like the idea of Courfeyrac bringing out Enjolras’ silly side (and taking pride in being the one who is able to do that, tyvm) and I also like (as I said in the other things I want to be known for) an Enjolras who is fiercely supportive of his friends, so I think he would be good at listening and contributing to long-winded conversations Courfeyrac might be prone to having, so they’d both always be down to rant together and flit from topic to topic etc. and just get along really well in a communication sense. 

Lastly, as I said, I don’t necessarily even think any of what I like about them needs to be romantic- but I personally really like couples who are also best friends, have such a solid foundation, have known each other long etc. etc so interpreting them romo is fun to me but it’s really all about how deep and solid their friendship would be~ 

Iiiiii hope this answers the question, I could prob rant about them for quite a while and if you (or others) have specific questions feel free to let me knowww 

[dotthings]

Talking as a fandom old, I can't begin to tell you how tired I am, in almost every single fandom I cross paths with, to find the gaslighting, anti-shipping discourse. It's aimed at queer ships and het ships--it's beyond specific issues related to heteronormativity, it's an entire no-romo, anti-romance mentality that often uses performative virtue signaling and moralizing to try to shame shippers and the ways shippers talk about their ships and point out why they see it as romantic.

There's dialogue going on that I think has developed as a defense because of anti-romance, no-romo gaslighting. Defensive dialogue from the shippers' side, and I haven't seen that pointed out a lot. How much of it arises from gaslighting being flung at ships in the first place, and that it's defensive dialogue, not aggression designed to force everyone into seeing it.

There's often the assumption that shippers are insane/reading too much into things.

Or, that shippers cannot possibly comprehend how valuable platonic bonds are, or that fandom's emphasis on shipping is somehow part of some nefarious societal bias that doesn't value platonic bonds. That hasn't been the case in my experience with fandom, and it's not true of myself. Shippers often have platonic bonds along with romantic ships that they love. I do. In fact, platonic bonds--siblings, friends, team building, found family--are actually the strongest thing that draws me into a story, initially, and sometimes I also ship things. Rarely, I sometimes intensely latch onto an OTP.

And I'm just so tired of seeing romantic bonds devalued. Fandom keeps going too far to over compensate for societal norms that over-emphasize romance, but romantic bonds are not less important than platonic bonds and platonic bonds are not less important than romantic bonds.

I'm still burned raw from a certain show I loved ending not by saying love matters, connections between people matters, instead its ending said: only platonic bonds matter. It gives me joy when there's stories that emphasize all kinds of bonds. That say love matters--platonic bonds matter, friendships matter, blood bonds matter, found family matters, and romantic bonds matter. It all matters.

The virtue signaling about the progressiveness of platonic bonds in media very often (and I'm not saying it's always, but it happens a lot) turns out to be a tool of anti-shipping--the authors of the posts have one particular ship they're against and so utilize no-romo moralizing as a tool.

Anti-romance biases and the devaluing of romance also carries a misogynistic tinge to it. Romance isn't exclusively appealing to women, but heavily appealing to women, and has a long history of being written and supported by women, and there's default biases of romance=weak=women, because women=weak, therefore romance is perceived as silly, trivial, not deep, unlike platonic bonds, which often get associated with manliness and what male audiences want, and with "story" and "plot" as if romance cannot be key to character depth and story power. Platonic bonds are often assumed as far more substantive than those oh so silly romances and those oh so silly shippers.

So. I am so very tired of it, and tired of seeing it aimed at ships, even ships I don't even feel one way or the other about, things I don't even ship, no horse in the race. Not just my ships getting targeted.

Leave the shippers alone to ship how they ship.

[findafight]

I love your opinions on r0nance so much. If you ever bring Steve up to the shippers they always start talking about how you can't insert a man into a wlw ship/relationship. As if he isn't integral to both their stories in the show. He's Nancy's ex and they dated for a year and he's Robin's best friend. If he was only one of those things it wouldn't matter, but he is both. And you can't separate them. If it wasn't for Steve, Nancy would have never acknowledged Robin. She didn't know who Robin was in S3 and it's heavily implied that she didn't care and wasn't interested in anything about Robin until she was useful. If Robin wasn't friends with Steve she wouldn't have become involved with the Upside Down, and Nancy never would have noticed her.

thank you! yeah I was writing that answer and thinking "literally so many of my issues with this ship and how it's approached have nothing to do with Steve. woah" though obviously i really hate how poorly robin and her relationship with steve is treated/written within the ship. why make her mean, or purposefully deceitful in a way she knows will be hurtful to her best friend? :( if you have to butcher a character/their relationship with another character for a ship...is that worth it? seems kinda vindictive too like what did power QPR duo stobin do to make ppl want to break them up? they hate to see bad bitches winning XD

I think taking criticism of how the robin and steve dynamic is treated in r0nance fic and saying that people saying those things are just making a wlw relationship about a man is sort of...idk. not insulting but. insincere? about how they care about characters, because like. this is a man whose relationships with these women is deeply influential to who they are and how they met. Robin is Steve's best friend. She wants to combine into an ultimate being with him. She made a crush she had about Steve, she's just going to insert him into her romo relationships and her partners are gonna have to deal with her weird obsession with her bestie! Nancy is his ex! Who cheated on him!! Both of them have history with steve, and that history influences dynamics! If we use rebel robin, she longs to find her people, real friends she can trust and talk to and click with without worrying about being too much. Steve is Robin's person. She puts a great deal of weight on her platonic relationships, and we see that with steve! Her thinking about how her actions would affect him is not centring a wlw relationship on a man it's being a good and loving friend!!

totally agree, Robin and Nancy's relationship with each other is pivoted on steve, because he's their point of commonality! He's the reason they know each other, (and also are alive), and has/had intense and deeply meaningful relationships with both of them, that have helped to informed who all three of them are!

Nancy's relationship with steve is tied to her grief and guilt surrounding Barb, and their involvement with the upside down. Treating it like it didn't mean anything to either of them is a disservice to that year they spent dating. yeah, maybe it wasn't a relationship meant to last, maybe it wasn't good for them or was cliche adolescent first love but it was important to steve, and important enough to Nancy that she stayed in it. tbh disregarding the s4ncy history and how steve loved her happens in a lot of fics, so it's not only a rnce problem, but it's a particularly annoying thorn when combined with steve's bff not caring about it or how he feels about it? doesn't feel like robin to me.

[holdouthepalmofyourhand]

re: shipping irl people is bad, weren't there several situations where content creators stopped talking to each other because of how uncomfortable it got for them? i don't think they were That Popular, but i def remember seeing info on creators talking about that. imo, shipping is okay, as long as it's properly tagged so creators can block it if they so desire, but a lot of fans take it to next level (like asking creators about their relationship irl on conventions and panels — esp if the person in question is married to someone else!). which is why other people go "SHIPPING IRL PEOPLE IS BAD", sometimes these few don't understand what personal life is. ofc, some creators encourage it, but replying to a creator's random tweet with "OMG THEY'RE SO CUTE LOOK <nsfwartofotp.jpg>" is... yknow. _yknow_. feel free to block me, i just thought i should say it D: like, it's not an attack on you — and it could be worded better, obv, rather than just "bad", but there's a fine line between "they're cute together" and "they must get married and i'll shout at them like it's my choice and not theirs". would you be flattered if a colleague told you, in obscene detail, how they think you and That Other Colleague (that you get lunch with, no romo) are so amazing together, hey, i imagined how you had sex and drew it, wanna look? and there's how you should name your children. maybe you're not that kind of shipper, but there _are_ people out there who behave like that. tbh i had nothing to do after class. my apologies if i sound like a condescending standoffish cunt — i just have vivid flashbacks of youtube fandoms in 2012-13. man, i thought cryaotic was a great person, what the fuck. anyway, hope you have a good day, please, stay hydrated and sleep well!

Lol. I know you sent a message after this saying you didn't read the part of my post where I said "without breaking the 4th wall", but I'm answering to this one anyway because of course I agree with you in the sense of not @ them on stuff and not answering directly to their tweets with that stuff. But my point is if you are not doing any of that and you are just shipping then it's fine 🤷🏽‍♀️.

I've heard about creators not being friends anymore because of the shipping, but also I have to think maybe they weren't all that friends to begin with ? (Or they weren't being shipped but somehow harassed ?)

Also your example is really funny, but we need to understand for like mental health reasons that social media isn't real life. We can make real friends through social media (I have and I love them deeply), but we can't LIVE through social media. And I'm sure most people (creators, celebrities) that use social media for work and that have a following understand this too (if they don't I hope they will get to a point of understanding it, but I think Sykkuno and Corpse do understand it).

All this being said, I am a Harry Styles fan so I've seen first hand how "shipping" can get out of hand with people believing crazy conspiracy theories about secret relationships (if you know you know, if you don't, you are better not knowing). I'm gonna go ahead and say THAT isn't shipping, shipping is always fictional, even if you ship people that are in actual relationships, because at the end of the day you don't know them and everything is about how you perceive stuff.

(also idk who you are because you are an anon, but my post wasn't directed to someone in specific it was more because I have to read at least every few weeks -there was a point when it was almost every day- on Sykkuno's tag here about how you are a terrible person if you ship real people without any type of nuance. I definitely read more of those posts here than posts from people shipping anyone lol)

I'm editing to add that when we see people doing what I described as not shipping but harassment then we should call it out, I do it when I see it on Sykkuno's chat (which isn't often) through whispers and I've done it on Toast chat and etc... But not when people are not being toxic lol or when they are just on their lane posting (twitter is like a gray area for me because it's such an open plataform but if you can see by context that it isn't serious then just let them be)

[incarnateirony]

Isn't it cute how we keep finding RL parallels to show that what they're doing with Destiel is a Romance with a capital R, and now the show itself used Destiel as a parallel to show that Saileen is a romance (even tho everyone already knew That)? And they'll come back to eachother eventually? Wow. I hope I got my point across, but this thought hasn't left me since the "What's real?" "This is." convo between Sam and Eileen. Two sister ships are driving this season, and I'm all here for it.

Yeah.

The fandom result is less fun, with people calling text subtext because they simply don’t understand the text’s merit (eg, Last Call) that was settled long before anybody in this fandom considered themselves a genius to try to argue circles around it. Like Y2K called it wants to update fandom on some LGBT issues already settled. Oz was… what? 1997-2003? (Which is when Bobo ended up writing his LGBT rep sociopolitical commentary?)

The show has me ecstatic. The fandom has me reeling in horror in how willfully LGBT people have coded themselves into a performative-to-het-demands-culture that they’ll talk down content and structure used for romantic het pairings even when it’s front and center. 

This isn’t the world of subtextual secret handshakes anymore, guys. I don’t know if meta fandom is reeling on what an actual Will They/Won’t They looks like as opposed to, yes, S7 wallpapers or fish or whatever rando shit got chased as a stream; or even compared to lowkey structural subtext like Colette which hid so many layers beneath the surface that it needed to be actively negotiated and tracked. 

Not front, textual assertions that Dean does in fact have Oz-esque group encounters beyond even Deanmon, that he alone had to bury Cas and burying Eileen was the same for Sam, only to turn around and have them mirror shit and truncate their emotional adventure with a kiss and fandom’s out here footstomping and invalidating the text level bullshit because it’s not said how they want, when they want. 

Like guys that shit is text. People not understanding the text does not make it non-text. Whether or not you know your LGBT history and intersectional issues (or have modernly soaked dialogue from alt right platforms that XYZ isn’t gay if you yell no homo, since there’s even parts of the world where men identify “straight” despite routinely pursuing sex with men and abandoning women that FOR SOME REASON PEOPLE HERE CATER TO THE DIALOGUES OF) – whether you know any of this, whether you UNDERSTAND this – the information still exists. 

People still try to explain that the earth is flat instead of round because they don’t understand science, or evolution for the same reason. That doesn’t mean there’s actually reasonable permissive argument here. In fact, it’s embarrassing as fuck to watch anyone hold one of these arguments. People not understanding material does not invalidate what the material actually means.

And seriously like– “WE WANT–” … what, a love confession or a kiss, I guess. All the other goalposts that were set up were blown by. The former love yous and similar phrasings (I guess we’re herding love affirmations into ONLY three specific words and otherwise it’s not valid, because… Magic Meta Gay People Rules) weren’t enough! And! AND! Even the ones that WERE those three words, people could arGUE!!! It might not be gaY!!!

So let’s be honest bitters & meta fandom & alternate shippers having sixteen jealousy fits: You don’t even want an I Love You, because it would have to be “I love you, and like, only you, romantically, like in love with you, in the gay way, let’s go have gay sex” for this to pacify this utterly homophobic ball of bullshit they have going on.

So we’ll be honest. You want a kiss.

That’s great. I do too.

At the same time, I can gesture you to a literally endless amount of history where literature and TV did not require a kiss for the romantic content to be valid and even celebrated.

That’s not what magically makes all the text text. The text is the text.

The subtext is elements like Reno, and Mary/John, or Amara/Chuck, and even those are loud as FUCK still. Ironically, *the text is quieter than the subtext right now*

If you take the text: Dean has repeat group encounters that are decades-ago LGBT qualified as queer; Dean loses all hope without Cas, once he has to bury Cas, and Eileen does the same for Sam.

The subtext of this: Dean actually forgot an entire woman in his tryst, which means she wasn’t a focus, which makes this gayer than the default gay text; Dean yet again followed viking widower tradition with Cas as a spouse and buried him himself.

This is literally “Cas is Dean’s Collette” but 1. fully textual instead of 3 levels under and 2. much more personal with a full character we witnessed with Eileen rather than flashbacks of Colette for a few seconds. The text here has subtext. It is text. Whether people understand the text, like the LGBT issues around 15.07 or not is an onus on them, but does not invalidate the content. People not understanding Gays doesn’t delete Gays, that isn’t how that works.

Because the hilarity of the line people trying to keep their blogs valid at– that they’re running? All text is subtext unless all text is explained unto a point that it can’t be argued, but that of course leaves the explanation subtext until it, too, is explained beyond a shadow of a doubt to children, and then so on, ad infinity, in a quantum loop of calling everything under god’s written heaven subtext.

I had a conversation with a meta writer who won’t be named that went full bore in a loop. They called it subtext. I pointed out where it was flat surface text. Yes, they said, that IS text, but people can still argue, so that makes it subtext. Uh, no, I pointed out, that isn’t how this works or what those words mean, someone’s understanding of the meaning of text does not invalidate the actual meaning the words have. Arguing with a phantom menace of a GA that’s all catching on right now to contend with tinhatters and a few other oddballs out there that are hilariously small and not in the GA eye isn’t worth changing the entire dictionary. Because The Dictionary Is A Good Book. If someone doesn’t understand all the words in the dictionary and what they mean that, also, does not invalidate the dictionary if it doesn’t have an infinite set of asterisks defining every definition. Anyway, said meta person completely went postal about it after that because after trying to loop the same argument three times and realizing They Will Always End Up Here, off they went when I said that arguing with idiots online wasn’t worth demolishing the dictionary, media study, or queer content.

AV medium seems to be confusing the fuck out of people that fancy themselves or are even degreed lit savants.

But hey, maybe there’s a ruse being played. Maybe Bobo already got that lucky corporate dice roll and is playing into his thematic structure. Maybe he will manage to break through with a kiss. Maybe, maybe, maybe. 

Frankly more than to argue with idiots, I kind of want it to exemplify the gross homophobia going on in this fandom. And I don’t mean antis. I mean every single person, right here and right now, redefining things to maintain their hysteria and anger or even just their general relevance/podium that evaporates if they acknowledge that it is what it is; that every bit of queer text AND subtext they talked down and deleted and tried to wedge into “platonic” boxes due to their own lack of LGBT cultural understanding was real, and valid, and while antis screamed and shouted raging at the text as provided, they were the ones there, being enemies this year, deleting queer content until their arbitrary goalpost, fulfilling as it may be, and as much as I personally want it too, was met. But if that happens, IF that happens, it WILL be by Bobo’s hand or Dabb’s with Bobo’s guidance, and I can PROMISE you he will make it such a sociopolitical commentary on the heteronormative bullshit going on (like his DreamHunter commentary that BLEW BY everyone) that I expect several people to delete their damn accounts in mortal embarrassment.

This season is gorgeous everyone. Enjoy it.

For the record, if that million to one shot is on the table, the episode everyone should watch for results, beyond the finale, is 15.18. I’m not gonna get into all the reasons here beyond Putrefaction/Blackening > Whitening > Yellowing > Reddening = Gold and if anybody wants to know what the fuck I mean by that, send me an ask. (I’m working on a Putrefaction video to plug into my series to help with that. And beyond that pacing, structure, rhythm, and Bobo. But that also does not mean anyone should seriously place their emotional chips on it, just to stop getting cranked up and demanding THIS NEXT EPISODE OR PERISH.)

Because if you think there’s ever a point homophobes are gonna stop arguing shit down, you’re in for a bad time. Straight pairs like Mulder/Scully that kissed got no romos mental gymnasticsing around it. If you expect differently with DeanCas you’re IN FOR A RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE

But I don’t want to hear one more goddamn peep about representation from that wing of meta fandom. The representation is there, front and center, to relate to for the intended demographic, it just wasn’t what other demographics wanted. But it’s written by a middle aged LGBT man for middle aged LGBT men and if you aren’t in that bracket, and don’t like the results, you don’t get to go and try to destroy that representative material. Hell if you ARE in that demographic you don’t get to one-card steam roll over other LGBT men too, the way it works from there is you find other people in that demographic and discuss the content’s pros and cons. If it ends at “not the ship I like” instead of genuine problems with the content, you also don’t get to destroy that for other people in the demographic. So whether it’s like, desperate clout/platform/relevance clinging, or just complete lack of understanding of LGBT media history and the represented demographic, that shit needs to stop. Pick a side. 

You can’t genuinely fight for representation while going and kicking down rep sandcastles because they weren’t shaped how you want. That isn’t how it works. It works by owning the content, and requesting better or more. Requesting more explicit content does not require destroying the content you don’t consider “enough”, in front of you.

Overt queer subtext AND text remain an overt body within the text even if it does not reach a given explicit landmark that you personally have decided on and is 0% dependent on anyone’s understanding of the fucking content.

[illusion-reality-steve]

Reaction to the episodes that BLUE up the shipping wars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv1slKoQAhY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5fqjVeKU0c

I’M SO EXCITED TO SEE A LEGIT BLUE STEVE. I AM SHAKING

Orange: RUF RUF

Sabre: OMG. THE CRYSTAL IS GONE

Me: Wow. Wooooow...10/10 Beautiful

******

Nightmare Steve is snatching these crystals Thanos-style. I wonder if the orange crystal will make him able to resist the Darkness more so he can consume more. Will that even work for a Yellow Steve? *gasp* What if he turns an Orange Steve evil? :0

Orange: *hints that he knows more about the Orange Crystal than he knows* Me: *suspicious*

******

These parallels to current times are honestly next level. Like,

Sabre: I thought you had the Rainbow Hub on lockdown, Orange Steve! Why are people just freely travelling to the Rainbow Hub!

It’s hilarious and it also hurts.

******

Yeeeessss. THAT BLUE STEVE SKIN LOOKS AMAZING. JUST. *chef kiss* MMMMMMM.

******

Sabre: O-Orange Steve, is it just me, or is that Blue Steve vibrant? Look at the light bouncing off of him!! The shippers: WRITE THAT DOWN. WRITE THAT DOWN. SABRE IS GETTING A BIT NERVOUS WHEN SEEING BLUEE STEVE. HE HAS A CRUSH.

Then there’s me, who just thinks Sabre just revealed what he finds aesthetically pleasing.

******

So...Blue Steve’s specialty is seeing everything.

*cue flashback of all the crap Blue Steve from Steve Saga Origins went through*

...fitting.

Also...if Blue Steve is spirit...would the Guardian of the Spirit World even be needed in Rainbow Quest’s universe?

******

...

...

...

Did Sabre just

TELL ORANGE STEVE THAT HE’S GORGEOUS

I’m.

I’M

*my mind just broke*

WHAT

THIS WAS SO OUT OF THE BLUE (lol pun) THAT EVEN THOUGH I SHIP ORANGE CHICKEN, I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY

LIKE, WAS THAT A LEGIT FLIRT?!?!

OR DID SABRE JUST TELL ORANGE THAT HE’S GORGEOUS FOR THE SAKE OF SAYING HE’S GORGEOUS. Because a guy can call another guy that he’s gorgeous without it being romantic! Is that what Sabre means?!

******

Anyways.

YOOOO, THIS YELLOW LIGHT PLATFORM IS BAAAAACK.

Aaaand.

IT’S MY BOI. MY RAINBOW SON. AAAAAAHHHH.

Blue Steve: *is associated with spirit. And spirit = projections, or characters that aren’t real* Illusion: *a person who creates illusions and really wanted to get control of the Spirit World* Illusion: *looks at the camera like he’s on the office*

******

I’m so excited to learn about this loooore.

And the Darkness attempting to wipe out the Red Steves is a harsh parallel in our history. When conquerors take over other civilizations, they kill the teachers or the ones who hold the knowledge first.

Ooooof,

F for Rainbow Steve.

Dang, that’s harsh and deep. It’s good lore though.

It seems like the theme of Rainbow Quest is “saving yourself vs saving your community vs saving everyone.” I really like that theme and I would love to see Sabre explore it more. What role does Sabre’s character play in that theme? He’s interesting because he has no community and this isn’t his world, but he’s still trying to save everyone while the actual inhabitants of that world need convincing to save their world. RQ!Sabre’s a good person.

Though I wish the Blue Steve explained what powers Rainbow Steve had. And the personality he had. I feel like if Blue Steve showed past Rainbow Steve being a good boi, I would feel more sad when we learn that he was taken apart.

******

ANYWAYS

For the record,

I don’t think Sabre telling Orange Steve that he’s gorgeous was meant to be romantic. I think he was going like “bro, you look beautiful. No romo. Just wanted to say that in case you needed to hear it today. Be confident, bro.” So I don’t see it as shipping fuel, even though I ship Orange Chicken.

That said.

To all the people who now ship Orange Chicken because of that line.

Just know.

That I shipped Orange Chicken before it was cool >:0