#and i know of at least one other person who read asoiaf at the same age. so my ao3 rating strategy is maybe fine?

[kvetchinglyneurotic]

out of curiosity what's everyone's metric for deciding between a T and M rating on ao3? mine is that i ask myself "would i have been okay reading this as a teenager" but i also read a song of ice and fire for the first time when i was 14 and idk if that's like. the normal standard for what's appropriate for teens or not

[alicentsgf]

Let's talk in depth about book Alicent. because even though i read the book 3 years ago I didn't engage online about it until the show's release and um. wow. some people have a very different interpretation of her to me. and also... some of those interpretations show a fundamental misunderstanding of the text, a tendency toward indulging the misogyny present in Fire and Blood, or both.

People are saying the writers changed a lot about Alicent's story and 'made her a victim'... they didn't. It was always possible to read the book and perceive that she was in many ways a victim. Honestly the biggest thing they changed was her age, probably to assist the interpretation they'd chosen, but the larger elements all stay the same; in both versions she's worked in service of the crown since she was young (as a type of companion either to Jaehaerys or Rhaenyra) and she and Rhaenyra initially have a good relationship (according to one source in F&B - this supposedly changes when Aegon was born and not named heir). So making it Rhaenyra we see her close with just makes the emotional tethers that might have been there anyway more visible. After all, Rhaenyra Does spare Alicent's life in F&B, and whilst she says it's for Viserys sake, Alicent at that point had been at the very least complicit in the deaths of most of Rhaenyra's children. Rhaenyra having such a strong former bond with Alicent is going to give this event in the show a lot more weight. It's not hard to see why they made this change, because it adds to the tragedy of the story immeasurably.

The fact is everything we see of Alicent in F&B is up for debate to some extent. Like, for example, did she seduce Viserys? of course certain sources tell us yes, but Fire and Blood is brimming with asoiaf-typical misogyny; it all reminds me somewhat of the story of Anne Boleyn, her story molded into something unrecognisable by history in order to make her the instigator. In truth, we have no way of knowing if Alicent wanted Viserys or not, but we do know she probably didn't have to seduce him. She was widely regarded as being the most beautiful woman - it wouldn't have taken a lot for Viserys to notice her. People, characters and readers alike, assume that because she wasn't a good political match he must have been persuaded, but Viserys was a selfish man, (that is indisputable, we see it in many of his provable actions), so it fits with his character to choose a slightly unsuitable wife on the basis of his own lust. The age gap in the show only serves to demonstrate visually the power imbalance that was at least somewhat present in the book anyway. And yes, this like most things in the book is up for interpretation, but I will say this: I seriously do not respect people calling her 'evil'.

The text never presents Alicent as evil. Even in the worst of her actions she is never legitimately shown to revel in the pain and suffering of others. At most you could argue she was ambitious, but I don't even believe that on the basis of one specific thing: it was her, not Otto, who asked Viserys to betroth Aegon to Rhaenyra. This was not a crazy suggestion in the book, as it was presented in the show; they were only a decade apart, and it was the Valyrian custom that the eldest son would marry his eldest sister, as Aegon the conqueror married Visenya. Alicent wanted this without stipulating the expectation that Aegon would rule instead of Rhaenyra. Viserys reportedly dismissed Alicent on the basis of believing she only wanted Aegon a step closer to the throne, and it can be read that way, but personally I don't think so. I think she was exhausting options to try to protect him after she realised Viserys was never going to name him heir.

Ultimately, Alicent would have been stupid to ignore that her children's lives were at stake. Especially in Fire and Blood where she was much less familiar with Rhaenyra. Nothing in Rhaenyra's actions suggested she wouldn't be capable. She reportedly had no affection for her brothers where she doted on Helaena, suggesting she already saw them as threats. She had demonstrated herself willing to accept physical harm to them in favour of her own sons. She was later thought to be at least complicit in the death of her husband Laenor, who had by all accounts been a good, kind husband to her… and then she married Daemon. Even before this he had been an obvious threat to Alicent's children; a violent man who'd always lusted after power, with a known hatred for Hightowers and who'd never been kind to his nephews by Alicent. Even if Alicent didn't believe Rhaenyra capable of murdering her sons, she would have been stupid not to believe Daemon able.

The truth is even in the book this crisis was set in motion by Viserys. Once he'd refused to marry Aegon to Rhaenyra the bomb was built and ticking away, it was only a matter of time. Even if Rhaenyra's heirs had been indisputably trueborn, Aegon and his brothers and any descendants they had would have been symbols for those who wanted to oppose the Crown to rally behind as soon as Rhaenyra or Jacaerys disappointed them, no matter if Alicent's sons had personally bent the knee. The situation only became more dire when it was clear that Rhaenyra's heir was not trueborn.

Fire and Blood isn't even really quiet about Rhaenyra's first three sons being bastards. To me it read like Rhaenys' Baratheon blood allowed those who wanted to believe otherwise to delude themselves, as Viserys does in both versions. After all, in the book Laenor being gay is an open secret. But the thing is… it doesn't even really matter if they were or not. With so many people believing they were bastards, they were pretty much as good as. Eventually, and most definitely after Rhaenyra's death, there would have been some form of conflict. Because if Jace, an assumed bastard, ascended the throne it would throw into question the claims of almost every lord in Westeros, many of whom would have older bastard brothers. and if a bastard who didn't even look targaryen could sit the highest seat in the realm over a trueborn silver-haired son of a king like Aegon, what's to stop the bastard brothers of any lord from laying claim to their seat? Aegon would have become a rallying point for that dispute whether he liked it or not, and Jace would have been forced to dispose of him if he wanted to maintain power.

In light of this, it's really no wonder Alicent repeatedly voices her animosity over Rhaenyra's sons questionable births. It's very telling that in F&B every cruel comment she reportedly makes about or to Rhaenyra references it. and I say "reportedly" because one of the worst of her quotes, her saying 'mayhaps the whore will die in childbirth' about Rhaenyra, people quote as fact… if you do this I will laugh in your face and ask if you read the book. because Alicent did not say that. or rather, if she did, Fire and Blood would not be able to tell us either way because the quote is attributed to her by Mushroom, one of Rhaenyra's supporters who (apart from being a famed liar) was with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone at the time.

The other two quotes used to argue her supposed evilness are from slightly less questionable sources, and honestly, yeah, it does seem likely to me Alicent implied to Rhaenyra her bastard sons' blood was worth less than that of her own trueborn sons'… but at that point, with the horror she'd experienced on account of Viserys upholding Rhaenyra and her sons' questionable claims, her reacting in this way is perhaps cruel and prejudiced, but not evil. And almost justifiably cruel in my opinon; for all she knows the woman she's talking to directly ordered for her six-year-old grandson to be brutally murdered in front of her, her daughter, and her other grandchildren, directly leading to her daughter's madness and later suicide. Was she going to be respectful? Is it fair to expect that from her? This focus on the term 'bastard blood' overshadows the rest of the quote: “Bastard blood shed at war. My son’s sons were innocent boys, cruelly murdered. How many more must die to slake your thirst for vengeance?” Why is Alicent being a bit of a bitch treated as a worse sin than Rhaenyra ordering the brutal murder of a toddler, or at the very least excusing it.

The last quote mentioned to back up claims of alicent's 'evilness' is her telling her granddaughter Jaehaera she should slit the throat of her husband Aegon III in his sleep. By this point it seemed to me Alicent was no doubt consumed by bitterness and would have attacked Aegon herself given the chance, but even without condoning her words or actions we can see how she became like that; all of Alicent's sons are dead and she wants all of Rhaenyra's gone too. Wasn't it "an eye for an eye, a son for a son"? - Rhaenyra's side set the precedent, the idea that it is justifiable to take one innocent life in exchange for another, no matter if its the life of a child who just happens to have been born on the other side of a war.

Alicent by the end of her life had certainly been driven to cruelty in her grief, twisted into something ugly by the world and locked away to rot.

And yet her final words weren't steeped in bitterness or violence. When the fever sets in she accepts death, even welcomes it. She speaks of seeing her children again, and King Jaehaerys. So doesn't that say she was never driven by hatred at all? That there was never any kind of innate evil nature? At least that's my interpretation. This is the same girl who spent her youth reading to a dying king for no clear reward, and felt such affection for him that she mentioned him at the end of her own life, perhaps pining for the time before her marriage. (No doubt in the show she will mention Rhaenyra instead). This is the woman whose daughter and grandchildren visited her with such reliable frequency her grandson's killers knew to wait in her rooms for them.

So what was so evil about her? That she quite understandably saw Rhaenyra and her sons as a threat, and preemptively acted to protect her own? As much as people like to project ideologies onto these characters, neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra's motivations were ideological, that much as clear.

I may have many reservations about House of the Dragon's execution of it, but the decision to present Alicent as a victim of the world she inhabits was not only the right choice, but also kind of the only choice. HotD is presented as objective truth, where F&B is a collection of biased accounts dripping in the misogyny of the men relating them, and so HotD had to be a critique of its own source material. I admit to having my own bias, and my analysis is at least slightly skewed in Alicent's favour because I'm responding to the most negative interpretations of her. And they are all just interpretations. But in my opinion, those adapting the text looked at Alicent and saw her, where clearly many readers didn't. They asked "what if this woman is misunderstood?", "what if this woman had no real choice?", "what if the men of this world just chose to ignore her complexity, because she was a woman?" and those were absoutely the questions to ask.

[esther-dot]

I'm sorry, that's gonna be a really weird ask from one jonsa stan to another but I'm genuinely curious - is there any anti jonsa argument/claim that actually made sense to you? I'm really asking for the sake of, well, civilised discussion - because if there are arguments there ought to be reasonable counterarguments. And all that I see is the same tired old crap - "she's not his favourite sister" and "but they are relatives!" and all the other stuff. Given, of course I'm not hanging around jonry@ and jon@erys side of this fandom (dark things happen to any sansa and jonsa stans there) and have no idea if they have any reasonable metas. Or maybe if there was a moment that made you actually question possibility of jonsa happening in books? (once again - because I'm anxious like that - I'm not asking this to disprove something or make people question jonsa but because I wonder if you personally had this sort of experience).

Thank you and hope you're having a nice day!

No worries! I enjoy looking at things from different angles, so I don’t mind at all. Unfortunately, I haven’t read anti jonsa stuff that isn’t exactly what you described, so I can’t actually have the convo you want about this. I tried to go to some jonerys blogs but their anti tags weren’t what we’re looking for. There’s a blogger people view as neutral who other Sansa fans/Jonsas put on my dash, and a BNF who people I follow also reblog from, so I went over to their blogs to look around and they’re less rabid, but I can’t say they offered though-provoking pushback. I’ll share some snippets though, in case you’re interested.

There was the old "but their siblings" argument:

I, ah, I do not think Jon marries Sansa in any scenario. Regardless of biological relationship, they think of themselves as siblings. The people around them are also quite likely to consider them siblings or as good as, having been raised as such (see also Theon being accused of kinslaying over his apparent murder of Bran and Rickon). Nor do I think either would be in a rush to go back to the traditional “but the Targaryens practiced incest,” again considering that their society is strongly anti-incest. Jon and Sansa were raised together, in the same house, as brother and sister, and that makes a material difference.

But you know, raised as siblings and please nobody try the “but they weren’t close” with me, that’s so not true.

It’s interesting to see someone say they were close, that’s not something I’ve seen before. I suppose my biggest issue with this line of thought is that it feels true for a generic fantasy maybe, but hardly convincing when talking about ASOIAF? Martin wants to talk about incest. So far, we have all the bad, abusive variations covered. I think he’s gonna work some shades of grey into it the same way he tries to do with everything he discusses, and to pretend like he would never feels disingenuous to me. Even if he ultimately abandoned the initial draft, from the author’s mind came the idea of a Jon / Stark girl romance. He has entertained it. Secondly, Jon is a Targ and it’s reasonable to expect that to manifest somehow, or at least, for Jon to experience the fear that there’s something latent there. And third, if we’re gonna get a romance, I think Martin would write it with the complexity and inner struggle that he writes everything and fauxcest offers him that opportunity, not to mention all the parallels it would allow as well.

Let's see...I also saw that they object to the Beauty and the Beast reading of Jonsa:

And I've been searching but apparently I never posted the rest of my "Bear and the Maiden Fair" thoughts, but that's the in-world Beauty and the Beast story. Through that and looking at bears elsewhere in the story, you can track this idea of the beast not being a monster, but being perceived as one by society, an outcast, which is why the Hound, Tyrion, and Jon all fit the role/are related (in a way), and why Jon will be the final suitor or real bear/beast.

The next one, I’m just gonna post the whole thing:

I’m not sure if the best part is the implication that Jon/Dany (which they believe is inevitable) have what’s required to allow for “quick deep emotional connections” or if it’s reading the Hound insult and threaten and then finally put a knife to Sansa’s throat and deciding “romance! chivalry!” The Hound may be disillusioned, but the fandom has got to stop pretending like some of his espoused beliefs aren’t self-serving, a defense because he is a monster. We have Brienne and Jon showing us different versions of knights, true knights, so acting like the Hound is in the right is just bizarre.

Anyway, no, I’ve not read an anti argument that made me doubt it. I do doubt what Martin is aiming for at times, so I’ve vacillated between potential paths/endgames for them over the years, but the anti arguments generally are coming from a reading of characters and dynamics that’s disturbing to me which means I’m usually alienated, not compelled.

[oldshrewsburyian]

I see a lot of posts about how ASOIAF isn't obligated to be accurate to real medieval history since it's a fantasy world rather than real life.

For example, I saw a post saying this:

"Asoiaf fans: "Here's a fantasy story written by someone with an understanding of history and how the societies that often inspired fantasy worlds functioned, as well as an understanding of gender and class relations throughout western history. This work explores a lot of questions that most fantasy stories brush off, and it deconstructs a lot of the romantic (and often conservative) narratives about-"

Person who gets mad when fantasy stories aren't the same Tolkien clone over and over again: "But you have ice zombie and dragon? And it's wrong to think about plausible implications of anything. Having dragons means you can't try to write humans realistically. Also this isn't actually historically accurate because..." (Proceeds to incoherent rant that ignores how both history and fiction work.)"

I wouldn't say that GRRM has an "understanding of history" beyond surface-level, let alone an "understanding of gender and class relations throughout western history" or how the societies the cultures in the books are based on functioned.

I can name the dothraki as an example of entire diverse and fascinating cultures being reduced to one-dimensional racist caricatures, which can't be excused by being set in a fantasy world.

My questions are:

Is the way GRRM portrays race, gender relations and other aspects of his worldbuilding harmful to our understanding of past societies?

Does GRRM succesfully accomplish deconstructing "romantic and conservative narratives" common in other fantasy stories?

To what extent does GRRM understand how societies that inspired fantasy worlds functioned (feel tempted to ask about race and gender relations, but you already covered it in an earlier ask so lets leave it as optional).

Hi again. As a sort of prolegomenon, I'd like to object to the straw Tolkien fan, here. There are immortal races in Middle Earth. There's a giant spider. There are Ents. Tom Bombadil is there. It's not as though LOTR is devoid of fantasy elements; it's just written by a man who spent decades immersed in medieval literature and culture (deeply affectionate.)

Based on my experiences in the classroom and beyond? yes, 100%

I'm not sure what "other fantasy stories" are being invoked, here, so I'm not sure what GRRM is allegedly trying to deconstruct. I would argue that even and perhaps especially Lewis and Tolkien are a lot more complex and less essentially romantic/conservative than is usually acknowledged. But, uh, my short, more or less instinctive answer would be "lol no." If a narrative trying to deconstruct narrative conservatism and romanticism still focuses on about 5% of the population and tends to insist that women's sexuality matters to the narrative more than anything else about them... mm. The deconstruction, I am not seeing it. It is very clear to me that GRRM wants us to believe that this is a nasty world where people are nasty to each other by default, where power is routinely abused with impunity. And? I want to ask. So what? What's the intended gotcha, here, besides a reinforcement of bad medieval stereotypes?

Oof. Um. The thing is that based on the three novels of the ASOIAF cycle I've read so far: I have no idea. His societies don't function the way medieval and early modern societies in Eurasia did. I would also argue that his societies mostly don't, uh, function, at least on the evidence we see. But his historical cherry-picking means that I simply do not know how much he has learned, or cares to understand, about historical realities. And honestly: this is fantasy! It has no intrinsic obligation to correspond to historical reality! I'm just mad because both GRRM and his fandom seem to think it does. Moreover, this is, in a very real sense, my problem (see the answer to #1, above.)

[attonitos-gloria]

jb for the ship asks?

jaime and brienne are truly a breaking of fourth wall. it is george turning to his audience and going "you DO get what is going on in this world, don't you? tell me you get it." he does that with tyrion in ADWD, too, and i just love it when george goes meta.

i think they are the most romantic thing to ever happen in asoiaf because of the way they are the embodiment of the true problem of love and courtly romance in westeros which is patriarchy and misogyny and the absolutely insane cages of gender these characters are in. it's very hard for me to get jaime and brienne without jaime and cersei as contrast. this is a jaime/brienne/cersei situation.

what if you grew up as a man, believing you were born to reclaim the fate of a true man - knighthood and glory - and it turns out in real life this just means violence and bloodshed. what if you cope with the horrors of feudalism and patriarchy by blending into one single golden unit with your twin sister who is you who are your sister and that goes on forever. what if you fed each other's cruelty, and bred monsters into the world, and death, and it's all perfect and golden because you're each other's reflection.

what if you often thought if you were a woman you'd be your sister because who else could you possibly be - but of course you'd never be a woman hahahaha this is crazy. of course you are not a woman. (but your sister is, and your sister is you. so what does that even mean? you never think about it, you just disappear inside.) what if your sister is trapped in a house of violence you can only bear witness to, but do nothing about, even with the sword in hand and a white cloak around your shoulders, because this is the fate of all women - marriage and motherhood at whatever cost. what if this isn't even the first time you bear witness to a king being violent to a queen in this same castle in this same bedroom. and your sister thinks if she were a man she'd be you but hahahahah this is crazy, obviously, of course your sister is not a man. (but you are a man and you are your sister. and she is being sacrificed in the altar of gender conformity that is monarchy and you are standing by the door because you are a man and you are a knight - you are thinking, what does that even mean? you disappear inside again.)

what if you believe this is really all there is to being a knight, to being a man, to being a person?

and then what if you meet a woman who is, as far as you can understand it, a better man than you: by being a better knight, by simply being a better human being?

pairing of all time. they don't even need to fuck for it to be real. i think there's a undertone of tragedy in them - i can't imagine jaime ending this series as a happily married man to brienne, i don't even know if both of them will survive, but like. i'm not expecting the next books for them to be canon because in my head jaime and brienne are already a canon relationship of true courtly romance.

(Post edit: might be the reason why I usually don't read fluffy fanfiction of them because it often goes the way of... they will get married and have babies and rule casterly rock together! and while I think it's okay to forge happy endings for beloved characters - i'm a sansa/tyrion shipper, i do this all the time lol - i think there is something apocalyptic about this ship. Like they have the power to ruin this system. Spiritually. I mean, i still read braime fic because the writers are just too good but. I like endings when one of them die. Or jaime goes to the Wall! I like this one too. Or at least they escape Westeros together lol anyway. It is also why i'm also EXTREMELY wary of some jaime ships who just play harder into the gender conformity that i think jaime and brienne are, canonically, breaking and ruining.)

so. basically there is no one else for jaime and brienne but jaime and brienne themselves. perfect pairing. i'd say maybe the only canon pairing ever

[elizabethtudors]

on prophecy and house of the dragon

grrm likes a good prophecy.  no prophecy rules larger over asoiaf than the prince that was promised prophecy.  it is quite literally the titular role.  therefore, it was quite interesting to me and many others when in the opening episode of house of the dragon, that very prophecy pops up.

at first, I read introduction of the prophecy as a sort of tragedy of the greek chorus.  we see viserys explicitly tell rhaenyra that aegon the conqueror thought that of his blood would come the prince that was promised to save the people from a long winter and his would be the song of ice and fire.  note, the show uses the word “prince” not the more gender neutral expression of “dragon” of the original prophecy as pointed out by maester aemon in affc.  I assumed, especially when viserys repeats elements of this prophecy to alicent in episode three in the form of his own personal dragon dreams that this was to be a case of tragic foresight.  the obsession for a male heir to be the prince that was promised is only extra tragic when we, the viewers and readers, know that obsession of viserys that would pass down to his daughter would be at the centre of an event that would kill off the targaryens in a way they never recovered from, all because they didn’t as aemon pointed out in affc “look for a girl.”  instead, rhaenyra and her claim is usurped for her bother, a male claim.  the irony that likely when the prince is promised finally arrives, it is likely dany, a woman, who fulfils that destiny (according to aemon at least).  

and while I think that reading is still a part of the tragedy, what the latest episode showed it’s actually more complicated than that.  we see rhaenyra struggle with the burden of legacy as viserys did in episode three by saying to viserys that she feels as though the burden is too heavy.  viserys is too weak to tell rhaenyra that she is the prince that was promised.  he does manage to mistakingly tell it to alicent though.  alicent, unaware of this prophecy of the burden that is passed from king to heir, believes that the aegon he is speaking to is their aegon.  viserys’ dream for a male heir, an heir named for the man whose dream he passed on to his daughter, brings forth nothing but destruction in its wake when the hightowers name him king in rhaenyra’s stead.  all because of a prophecy, a secret, that alicent does not have the language or knowledge to understand.

the first blood that alicent draws in the dance is from the dagger with aegon’s prophecy.  where to rhaenyra, that dagger is symbolic of her history, of heritage and prophecy, to alicent, it is merely another blade.  the same is true when viserys tells alicent of the prophecy and aegon’s dream.  to her, it is just another name and surely a symbol that her son is chosen to rule by viserys.  to viserys, it is his dying plea that he believes in his daughter.  this prophecy element in house of the dragon isn’t just a tragedy of gender but also one of heritage.  it is the blunt knife that will cut viserys’ children into two.  no one ever bothered looking for a girl just as no one bothered explaining why the targaryens believe they are divinely fit to rule westeros to an outsider like alicent.  and the realm will burn fire and blood for it.

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

Oh, insomnia thoughts my loathed loves

Anyway, I was reading something about motherhood in ASOIAF and the text mentioned how if Cat were to decide between saving the life of Jon Snow or one of her kids, she would obviously choose her own kid. I think that's correct and fair, I doubt most mothers wouldn't do the same. But then I started wondering what if the question wasn't between Jon and one of her kids, but between Jon & Theon.

So, simply because I'm curious I wanted to pose a hypothetical situation where for some reason Jon & Theon are both in equal danger of mortal peril and Cat has the option to save one but by doing so the other would 100% die. Who would she choose then? I'm genuinely curious because I started picturing who she would choose between Jon & Robin Arryn or Jon & Beth Cassel and could come to a more or less stable conclusion but this time I'm lost.

Because she doesn't like any of them, but allowing for any of their deaths would probably haunt her.

She hates Jon as the symbol of her shame but she knows her most of her children love him deeply and so does Ned. Allowing for him to die under her care would probably drive them away and some might even think she would have taken joy in the act since it was more or less well-known how much she loathed that boy. Allowing for him to die would also secure her children's place as true Starks, something that has never been disputed by anyone but she seems to resent and fear even before Robb was crowned King in the North

On the other hand, she was never very fond of Theon either and neither were most of her loved ones. The only person in the Stark household who seemed to have had a more-or-less affective relationship with Theon was Robb, and even in that relationship there was distance (partially due to the age difference but even more so because of the power imbalance between them) and even if there is affection there, Robb is also very loving of Jon. Due to Theon being a highborn noble and the heir of his house it seems like a horrible political decision to let him die and one that could give a more than plausible reason for the Greyjoys to rebel once again and probably more motivated by vengeance (at least to her perception) than they have ever been. I also can't help but wonder if she'd sympathise with Alannys. There are no indications of her confinement and madness being known by other westerosi nobles, but I think Cat probably would have known of her two killed sons and might have felt so much for her.

Also, if you want to expand with more than simply voting and telling me your reasoning or whatever you're welcome to do so.

[horizon-verizon]

Huh so people are using Hill's Alive videos in arguments now? Why, her videos are out of context and biased as hell. Even her ASOIAF ones.

Because she affirms their hatred of Dany and the Targs, or just their affirmative biases and bigotry. and she is hot right now with many followers, so she has to be correct, right? That's basically it.

A more credible YouTuber who I personally follow is Phoenix Ashes, or you may know them by their current Tumblr name "ozymalek".

Here is one of their videos:

This is from their pinned comment:

Every single comment in this video thus far has proven that HA's army of trained, yapping chihuahuas could easily fall for every single propaganda imaginable as long as it was their favorite Internet personality saying it. They repeat claims that have been throughoutly shredded to pieces IN THE VIDEO PROPER and think that I call that liar a "liar" because I disagree with her "interpretation" of Daenerys. In reality, I call her a liar because I have substantially proven that she lied to her audience in her videos and built arguments around those lies.

Hill's Alive said at least two times that George RR Martin has DIRECTLY STATED that the show's ending matches the broad strokes of the ending that he will write, but there exists no video or an interview in which he makes such a statement, definitely not DIRECTLY. Hill's Alive did not include any link or a clip in her videos of him saying it, because that statement does not exist. The only thing that I was able to find (even though it should be HA's job because proving the claim lays on the one making it), GRRM revealed broad strokes to D&D, but has never confirmed that D&D followed them. I also included two sources of him claiming that the ending will not be the same: Not a Blog post from 2019 (right after the show ended) AND a statement from summer 2022 where he claimed that the ending will be QUITE DIFFERENT. And I even said that I don't hold HA accountable for not knowing the most recent statement because that particular video was from a year before it was made. Nevertheless, there is no direct confirmation from GRRM about broad strokes, and even if there was, GRRM's recent statements prove that even if that was the case, he changed his mind. I suspect that in 2019 GRRM was still binded by NDA's and now, that he has wrote so much of "Winds", the differences in endings has become even more apparent. I linked both of those and even read it out loud for those who may have trouble with reading comprehension.

Hill's Alive said that "Westeros has never been particularily peaceful, but it has never been as chaotic as it's been under the Targaryens". This is a lie because it contradicts canon: a) F&B directly says (contrary to some other "direct statement" that doesn't exist) that before the conquest, wars in Westeros have been such a common occurrence that if there weren't wars for a year, that was a success b) all of Jaehaerys' reign, which was exceedingly peaceful and prosperous, contradicts that + the Targaryens brought limited progress to Westeros, too, for example by outlawing the right of lords to rape newlywed women. By nature of feudalism, wars could not be eliminated, but there objectively was progress. [I am inserting this here link where ozymalek calculates peace years under the Targs here on Tumblr]

Hill's Alive has built an entire theory on how Daenerys will be killed by Arya based on Daenerys' talking about Maegor right before she walks into the funeral pyre. Except, Daenerys does not bring Maegor THEN. She does it much earlier, after Eroeh is killed. And while I can, to some degree, accept someone mixing two scenes, especially if they read the books a while ago, I am not willing to do this when a) the person in question talks to a substantial audience and misleads it in the process b) this is so easy to check. All you have to do is google "A Game of Thrones" pdf, click Control+G and search "Maegor". This is what I did.

[janiedean]

25th hour and city of thieves I never read the book so why did you compare them to jaime jon and ygritte

eeeeh it's been years since I dealt with either and god why do I even have to admit benioff can write when he wants to but anyway

25th hour has nothing to do with asoiaf it's just a really good script and it turned into a really good movie

the thing with city of thieves is... okay tldr the basic plot is two russian men (lev and kolya) are taken prisoner during the leningrad siege and are promised freedom if they manage to find eggs to bake a birthday cake for the daughter of the guy who arrested them (obv hard to find during a siege where everyone was dying of hunger), they go around trying to find the eggs, at some point they go out of town in this mansion where they supposedly had a bunch of chickens and it turns out that the mansion is full of girls who were kept there as nazi prisoners for you can imagine which reasons, they team up with the local partisans to save them, the partisans include a young girl named vika who is v good at warfare and eventually falls in love with lev, blah blah blah not spoiling things but at the end they have to separate then *she* finds him post-war bringing eggs, he tells her they can make an omelette and she replies she can't cook, that was your basic plot thing is, lev is a 17yo bucket of walking angst who has Issues because his father was arrested and deported by the government because he was too much of a free thinker for them and jewish, bad combination when it comes to stalin government (as far as I recall), doesn't really want to admit that he might be dead-dead at least in the beginning, doesn't talk too much and isn't too social, also being jewish he already felt singled out and like he had to mix/blend/be better than his father or smth like that kolya was taken prisoner for being a deserter, doesn't appreciate authority all that much, cracks bad jokes all the time and irritates lev bc he doesn't take shit seriously except when he gets serious when it comes to saving the girls used as unwilling prostitutes, if I don't recall wrong he was extremely attractive/charming vika basically was going guerrilla stuff, was a better shot than them, went at lev every other moment like I know way mroe than you about stuff (which she did btw), was the one pursuing him more actively and I don't remember if she was a redhead or not but like... the personality fit the bill now like idk if it was obvious from my bad summary and ofc there were differences (like for one kolya had a nice active sex life with a bunch of female friends instead of yknow toxic rship with his twin) but when it comes to character archetypes/personalities lev and jon were pretty much the same deal from the teenage angst to the daddy issues to needing to keep the family name honorable, jaime and kolya had a good 70% of basic traits in common and vika and ygritte were the exact same type including the romance where they make the first move and not being stereotypical feminine which is why idg why the fuck benioff managed to write a book with three main chars that are the exact same archetypes as jon jaime and ygritte with the obvious differences and then completely fucking up adapting jon/jaime in the series because if he could write city of thieves there is absolutely no way he actually misread the og characters nor didn't realize what they were there for so...................... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk and I guess I never will but if I wrote an asoiaf au of city of thieves with that recast no one would bat an eyelid, I compared them because they're the same tropes obv written different and in another context but it was so glaringly obvious I'm still asking myself wtf went wrong there almost ten years later

anyway as much as it pains me to say city of thieves was actually a pretty good book so like idk if anyone feels like obtaining it through whichever mean they find most ethical when it comes to maybe or not financing benioff it's not a waste of your time

[buttertheflame]

They say that fanfiction is all stanning. But has anyone stanned the source material to the point of getting distracted from writing fanfiction?

You know what I mean, bookworms? Just to give you a window into my oscillating thoughts: If my guy Jon Snow has returned to the Wall post-ADWD with his betrothed Daenerys Targaryen, yeah I'm gonna stan what came before and make shit up like crazy. The struggle is real! I love the romance of these ‘soulmates’ but I also love everything that makes asoiaf what it is. (Within reason.)

If I stan too much, I write slow-going passages like this:

Jon’s heart felt full as he left her side, his mind brimming with thoughts of their eventful morning so far.  My love, where do we go from here? He knew where he was going, at the least. He would find Samwell in the Flint Barracks. In the three days they’d been at Castle Black, both men had yet to break from meetings to tend to personal interactions. With the increasing days among the Watch, it became more strange to think of himself and Sam as former members of the order. He’d expected the feeling even before they’d left Winterfell, yet as he walked across the courtyard and felt the gazes of a few dozen black brothers upon his back, it shook him all the same. 

Yet another feeling warred within Jon Snow. On the right step he’d sense the men. On the left step he’d sense Daenerys. Her attention and love thrilled him, as like it had only one other time. On Dragonstone. Their home.

But if I hold back on the stanning, I write meatier passages like this:

It was hard to say if anyone took offense enough to the executioner’s blade hanging above them, for as often as the Northern lords, free folk and warriors large and small came up to the dais to present themselves, did the displays of fealty reassure her of Jon's leadership. Strikingly, the free folk never kneeled, but they did offer gifts, the most sobering of which were a pair of bearskin boots given to Queen Daenerys by a group of spearwives.  

She took them graciously and wondered if the wise men would believe the gesture had given King Jon’s uncertain frown a rosy flush. That he was charmed enough to tell her a tale of the hunter who’d fashioned them was welcomed with her whole heart. As she listened to him describe the father of two who fell to the Others at the event many had come to call the Passing Through the Ice, she wondered if the scribes of history would tell of this pair, the last he ever made. And as Jon sort of sat and looked at her for a long time, she wondered if they would believe she was hopelessly lost for him, as well.

So it's coming! If anyone has read "A Long Way Home" and is waiting for the next fic in the series, I'd like to get Chapter 1 up before House of the Dragon comes out in June. (Because of the competition, you see, from their very same Team Black forebearers.) That's the goal, anyway!

[leesielex]

Awww look. I got more Dany hate for a post that said Dany was Mother of Dragons. And so many of these trolls then theorize or fanfic that THEIR fave hatches their own dragons. Why would GRRM have TWO characters hatch dragons giving the same plot to both? Cersei is already becoming the mad queen with an attraction to wildfire, please tell me how it would make sense to have two mad queen stories in the same series too? Like How unoriginal and boring are you? Obviously you are at least as unimaginative as D&D, ya know the dude bros that claimed to read the books but didn't know Sam was a POV chap and thought a show where the confederacy won and kept slavery was a fantastic idea.

It also shows you completely miss the whole point of the series, that they all bring something to the table, that it's about the collective and greater good, that no one is perfect and it's about the struggle, the journey, the mistakes and learning from them. That they must put aside petty squabbles and the war for the iron throne to defeat the Others and save the realm.

Please tell me how they defeat the Others WITHOUT dragons? They don't. They all die. If you don't like fantasy with dragons then what are you doing here? If you so badly hate a woman with power &are a misogynist, just say that.

Seriously, show me a single character that has better judgement than Dany? That hasn't made a bunch of bad judgements, terrible decisions, been impulsive or let their emotions get the better of them, more than once, in the ASOIAF series? There isn't a single character in the whole story, especially those in positions of power like Stannis, Jon, but even Sansa and Bran that there isn't a list of poor judgements they have made that often result in the deaths of themselves, their loved one, or their people. (Except Bran but he is literally 7-9 in the books and has already committed 2 of the 3 abominations that skinchangers should never do). Like no one gets as much hate as Dany, no one is held to as high as standards as Dany and yet Dany is one of GRRMs fave characters, one of the key five, and the whole world of Planetos would be fucked w/o her and her dragons.

According to GRRM, Dany is a hero. “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones."

And from Fevre Dream, written by GRRM I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended."

And when asked if the dragons are like nukes-

"it’s often been said that the dragons are the nuclear weapons of my imaginary world. They are the most devastating weapon, and they cause great destruction, massive loss of life. but they’re not necessarily, you know, I mean, this is part of Dany’s storyline and the original novels."

Dany sacks Astapor and takes Meereen and yet she DOESNT USE HER DRAGONS IN THE BOOKS BUT ONE TIME TO KILL BURN ONE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE SERIES SO FAR!

Y'all either never read the books and are going only off D&D's fanfiction show, you haven't read the books in so long that you remember the show scenes better than the books and conflate the two, or you let the Internet forum hate of Dany dictate your thoughts without zero confirmation or critical thinking of your own.

So gtfoh with that "nuke" bs. Even GRRM backtracked on that recently. Prob cause he saw how badly D&D and so many of the fandom has misinterpreted this story due to misogyny and media illiteracy.

[devitalise]

omg imo I could've sworn there was at least one full week left of november for some reason but dec 1 is on friday BYE locking myself up to finish my books 🏃‍♀️ HOW WAS YOUR NOVEMBER READING!! are you already in the holiday spirit are you planning on reading/watching some holiday related things to get you there? this one's rando, but do you have any favorite holiday foods/desserts/drinks you're excited to indulge in during this last month o 2023 ☃️

november being 30 days always goes by SO quickly she knows we're ready for the main event. november was a very good reading month for me let's get into the

november book wrap up

Small Island by Andrea Levy

i finished this pretty early on in novembr, my thoughts are along the same lines as my goodreads review: Great piece of historical fiction. I found parts of this so funny and I'm not sure if that was the original intention but I did have a giggle! The humour was found moreso in Gilbert and Hortense who are just so, so different to each other and Hortense's wilful misunderstanding and naivete as she tries to be a Model Minority was just so funny it was a much needed brevity compared to the heaviness of the rest of the story. Such foul racist thoughts that can be burdensome after a while, though. Yeah! I don't need to read the POV of a white British man stationed in India in the second world war ever again, actually! I enjoyed reading though.

A Game of Thrones by George R.R Martin

reread this because I hadn't picked up a high fantasy book I'd actually enjoyed in a little while. Great! I love ASOIAF as a series love returning to a known entity. I can't find my copies of A Storm of Swords or A Clash of Kings so continuing my reread is on pause until those unearth themselves.

Drive Your Plow over the Bones of the Dead by Olga Tokarczuk

Brilliant! So, so atmospheric. Incredible translation to me, obviously I won't know for sure until there ever comes a day where I can read Polish, but I got so much of the story out of this. It was just so cool and not what I expected at all going into it. I've never read anything like it before so getting to grips with all of the quirks of the style, subject and character was its on experience.

Butcher's Crossing by John Williams

Stoner was one of my top 2022 reads, so I saved this knowing that I'd like it. Rachel Cusk coded. It didn't blow me away like Stoner did, but I appreciate these are two very different books with completely different approaches. Where Stoner is so insular, things are kind of bursting in Butcher's Crossing. William isn't a complete active character, but he's participating in his life. Really cool setting, one of the most tense books I've read which I find can fall short in books with more action but the way tension builds and builds and builds in these fraught interactions between the four men on the mountain is fucking incredible. Immediately watched the film after this, and I love Nicolas Cage as much as the next person, but it fell short for me as an adaptation and as a film, sadly! Will be reading Augustus very soon as the last novel Williams' acknowledges as his own work.

The Power of the Dog by Thomas Savage

Another Western! Apparently I couldn't get enough! Not long finished this, so bear with for complete thoughts. Realised that I haven't read a book with such a sinister character in a while. Phil is sinister and strange and he's complicated, and I just really liked this book! Took me a while to get through because it is so dense at parts, but I think playing the long game definitely paid off. I love books that can make life so dramatic, all of the small stuff builds up to this big moment kind of thing. Netflix removed this film??? Will be making time to watch it this weekend for sure!

Outlawed by Anna North

3/3 with Western's which is so out of left field for me I feel. Finished it today, but on my top 2023 shelf, for sure. I think reading these back-to-back has made me appreciate the difference in style and storytelling so much more. I was a bit nervous because I've found previous Reese Witherspoon book club picks really juvenile, and whilst this is way more accessible than BC or TPotD, there's still a lot of complexity that I was able to enjoy. I love communities and found families, and it just really got me reading this book about these "women" ostracized from society making something of their own at risk of imprisonment and hanging. Thought it was really neat :)

December Reads

I'm on the Kindle through to the end of the year (10 days to New York!) so I'll be getting a couple new titles to diversify my options more. I don't have anything set in stone but I did download pdf's of The Hunger Games series which I've never read before so I might do those.

My Christmas mood started on November 1st! Multiple plays of Ariana Grande's Christmas & Chill, and I've already watched a few Christmas films. I watched The Holiday for the first time recently and found it boring :( I'm not a Jude Law enjoyer sorry.

Oh I love a hot cider! Ferrero Rocher's, stuffing, anything Christmassy really! I'm also so excited for a Christmas in New York! I have an itinerary going and many pictures to take!

[therealvinelle]

Tw: talking about r#pe ASOIAF anon here! Sorry, I might have been a bit misleading

On the GRRM part I think you are right. I'm saying this because I haven't run into a person who criticised him so far. And I don't even have to mention D&D after the shit show they made out of GOT, everyone in the fandom hates those two.

But if you take a deep breath and dive into the fandom.......people will try to defend their favorites no matter what the cost is.

Unfortunately, I like the edits about GOT on Tiktok. That was what captured me at first because there are some very talented people out there. But here comes the catch. Let me give you an example that I run in to frequently. The Daenerys vs Sansa fandom.

If you criticise Daenerys as a Sansa Stan they will make fun of your fave as if they are still in Kindergarten. I once saw tiktok about Sansa getting r#ped or abused in an other way to promote Daenerys.

Same goes for Sansa's team. I saw it in both teams that there are people who do shit like that. And the beauty of this that these "Stans" in the fandom will try to deny it, that it never ever happened and that it never will because their fave is Jesus come again and those who love this character are the loveliest people in the world. If you think differently, you're wrong and an idiot. (And there are way more competitions where they put different characters against each other because they want to have a beef with someone.)

And do not let me get started on Team Black or Team Green. You will see people cheering about murdering children in the most brutal way imaginable.

You see, my problem is that you can't have an opinion about almost every character that counts because there will be always at least one "XY's d*ck rider" who will defend their every action as if they were their bear cubs. Also they will make fun of the or send them death threats to the actors/actresses because they played a character who they hated.

I'm sorry that I ended up ranting and taking up place in your ask box but I wanted to give you a warning about what is lurking in the Dark side of this fandom if you will ever get into it somehow, (Run you fool! Run and don't look back! ) that this will be one helluva ride. I know, I know that every fandom has its weird people but ASOIAF and GOT and HOTD in my humble opinion are on another level.

There is a possibility that these toxic takes only exist on Tiktok and Twitter but let's not forget that Tumblr had its dark side era.

So...yeah......again. I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. And sorry for my English

(^me reading this ask)

(Anon is referring to this post.)

Thank you for clearing up, anon, I... god. Good god. I will keep this in mind.

[esther-dot]

“The things he has told us time and again over the course of years that he told D&D? The things the fandom wants to believe are strictly their fuckery? Like say, Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran, Dark Dany?”

Can you share where George told us ‘time and again’ that he told D&D about Dark Dany? Because from what I know, the three things George RR Martin confirmed he’s told D&D were Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran and the Hodor moment. I don’t remember him saying anything about Daenerys’ ending, I’d be happy if you enlightened me, I’d love to see the interview/post.

Oh, I’m sorry. I wasn’t careful enough there! Martin has said many times over the course of years, that he has known his main endings and plot points for years/decades. He has also said he shared these with D&D, that he expected the show to have the same endgames, and before and after s8 he has spoken of how faithful an adaptation of ASOIAF Game of Thrones is. Obviously they have huge divergences, but I think those are in the how the endgame is reached, less the what. That’s the part of “he told us time and again” that I meant, not that I have heard him explicitly say, “Dany dies a villain.”

But, he did say this of the infamous Meereenese Blot Essays:

Then he went on to add that sometimes there's an essay or even a series of essays that "really gets it right". He specifically cited the difficulty he had with the Meereenese sections of ADwD, trying to figure out the POV, and he called it the "Meereenese Knot." He admitted being annoyed when some turned it into "the Meerenese Blot", but someone made a series of essays with that title. "I read those when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention." Of course, he added that some other essays depress him when people get everything wrong, and when people get everything wrong, well, whose fault is it? It could be his fault because he didn't write it well enough, but who knows? (link)

Here are some quotes from those essays:

But when you look past the unreliable narrator and POV-character bias, Martin’s aim becomes clear. The whole plotline is designed to maneuver Dany into a mental place where she’ll decide to sideline her concerns for innocent life, and take what she wants with fire and blood. Martin’s triumph is in handling this character development in such a natural and organic way. He gives Dany as much agency as he can — her hand is never truly forced by the Harpy or slavers. He presents her with incredibly difficult situations, places her core values into conflict, and makes her choose. Her choices first go one way — then another.

Now, the transformation is complete. The Dany we knew at the end of ASOS is gone. The one who reaches Westeros will be a very different person. The dragons are now unchained, and the gloves are off. (link)

and

In parts I-IV of this essay, I’ve laid out my main argument that Martin has designed Dany’s ADWD plotline quite deliberately to focus on her struggle within herself. She tries to be concerned for innocent life, and fears unleashing her violent impulses. Eventually, she sacrifices a great deal for peace, and achieves it. But she turns out to hate it, and in the end rejects it, in favor of “fire and blood.” 

and

In contrast to Daario, Martin tailors the traits of Hizdahr zo Loraq to represent the path of peace through political compromise. Dany’s feelings toward him are exactly how she ends up feeling toward the peace — like the peace, Hizdahr is unsatisfying, frustrating, not what Dany truly wants, and cannot make her happy — and instinctively, she wants war more. 

and

Dany’s sexual satisfaction is a metaphor — the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can (link)

So, no, Mr Martin didn’t look into a camera and say, “Dark Dany is real and everyone who says so isn’t a hater or partaking in a ship war.” But I’m not sure how you read the essays and what he said about them and deny that’s the path she’s on?

I also think the way he regularly included “the major beats” in his discussion about endgames being the same in the show and books indicates the burning of KL was always in his mind, but even if he didn’t say so, I don’t think it’s a weird conclusion to come to. Not if you relate Dany entering a funeral pyre because she is blood of the dragon and emerging with her dragons to the later quotes about Aerys wanting to turn KL into a giant funeral pyre so that he could be a dragon. It’s just not much of a leap at all to realize, oh, the author is building to something here. (link)

My words could have been clearer, but I think Dark Dany is just like Stannis burning Shireen. It makes sense, it’s foreseeable, but fans like Stannis so they refuse to believe it without seeing the words on the page. Fine. But it doesn’t mean it wasn’t where Martin always intended to go. His quote about Feldman’s essays is from 2015.

The other Martin quote that seals the deal for me regarding Dark Dany is the fact that he called her a threat and compared her to the Others:

MARTIN: Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of  the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her  dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice  and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle,  in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more  based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from  the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100  Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of  the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so  consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms,  within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the  Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re  blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening  far away on the periphery of their kingdoms. (link)

I just don’t think he accidentally called her one of “the much greater and more dangerous threats” if in his mind she wasn’t, ya know, a threat to the people of Westeros. That quote is from 2014. There’s also the oft referenced the dragons are the nuclear deterrent quote which I can’t find the original source for at the moment, but I take the above as confirmation of what Dark Dany enthusiast have long argued. Martin reading this quote:

“the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can”

and saying, He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there…well, it feels like an answer to the Dark Dany question.

[finitefall]

Honestly I think people who criticize Jonerys for being incest are stupid because they didn’t know they were related when they met. That’s what creates the gut “ick” feeling most people have at the prospect of mating with relatives. We can’t read someone’s DNA to tell who’s a relative. Our brains identify relatives based on experience. Meanwhile they think Jon//sa is better because they’re less related when Jon and Sansa actually grew up together and would recognize each other as relatives. Personally I’m not a fan of Daemyra (not a fan of Rhae//nicent either though) but the argument kind of applies. Daemon rarely sees Rhaenyra as she grows up. Plus I think the “ick” instinct must just be broken in Targaryens since we have siblings who were raised together feeling attraction to each other, which rarely happens in real life. I don’t like Daemyra because of the age factor but that’s just my personal taste and I’m not going to go slamming it and sending anon hate 🥴

Thank you for this message, nonnie! It's very much appreciated after the last one.

I don't think it was went by a Jonsa shipper, but yes there's definitely a huge hypocrisy with Jonsa shippers who say Jonerys is disgusting because Dany is Jon's aunt by blood. If you're disgusted even by fictional incest, Jonerys should be the one you find the least disgusting since they didn't grew up together. Their real issue isn't incest though, they just hate Daenerys. You just have to see so many of them putting the "she's his aunt" argument against this ship at the same level as "she's barren" (which is a disgusting argument, thrown like an insult against a woman). Jonsa shippers (most of them) are really just in love with fanon Sansa and use book quotes from Jon's POV about Arya, pretending they're about Sansa.

I don't think shared blood will be an issue for book!Jon, by the way. And there's heavy Jonerys foreshadowing in the books, no matter if people like it or not. It's happening, get used to it.

Obviously, Rhaenyra and Daemon aren't disgusted since Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for centuries. They don't come from the same culture and the law was changed for them (since it was against The Faith of the Seven). It's interesting though to note that it was only brother and sister, father and daughter, mother and son that are considered incest in Westeros. First cousins isn't considered as incest, uncle and niece or aunt and nephew can also happen by followers of the Old Gods (I do think that while it's not written, The Faith of the Seven protest against it? I'll need to check my ASOIAF History again!)

I'm not sure how old Rhaenyra and Daemon are supposed to be in HOTD, but they married when she was 23 and him 39. I think the age difference is supposed to be the same in the show? The age gap doesn't bother me, but it can bother many people. You could even not like Daemyra because them being uncle and niece does bother you even in fiction - as long as you don't go around hating on those who ship it and that's what matters.

I can totally understand someone who doesn't like an incestuous ship, what they need to understand is that me and plenty of other fans actually separate incest in fiction from incest in real life. Yes, I loved Cesare and Lucrezia in The Borgias even though they're brother and sister and I'm disgusted about this happening in reality at the same time. It's entirely possible, it's even the case of most people who love an incestuous ship. It's incredible to have to have to explain this.

[attonitos-gloria]

ALSO HI IM BACK so ok so. I read some of your posts and I’ve been thinking about it, and it really does bother me how easily casual ableism finds its way into any discussion of Tyrion as a character with the wider fandom. Especially because it’s disguised as “he’s such a terrible person” meanwhile a lot of these same people will love Jaime, a character who did just as many (if not more) horrible things, but who is easier to forgive and to love because he’s physically beautiful, and described as beautiful over and over again in the text. Jaime is pretty, and dumb (not really but he’s portrayed that way many times) and not very ambitious - all things that make it easier for people to like him, and want him redeemed. Also, because Brienne (who is almost overwhelmingly pure and good) decides he’s worth saving and genuinely likes him, it’s easier for readers to care about him. Their desire to see good things happen to pretty people is affirmed by Brienne being in love with him. (None of this to say people shouldn’t like Jaime - I like Jaime!!! A lot! I just don’t pretend his looks make him worth more than any other character.)

Meanwhile Tyrion is described as ugly, misshapen, deformed, stunted, frightening - by almost every character he ever interacts with, over and over and over again. His eyes are clever and sneaky, mismatched and filled with frightening ambition. He is feared and hated by so many people, and when he isn’t feared or hated he is disdained, rejected, reviled or dismissed. All of that is influencing people when they read the books, because most of them have little to no experience with critical analysis of physically disabled characters, and because if I’m being honest a lot of people just don’t read things critically in the first place.

Idek where I was going with this lol I’m just sort of rambling at this point, but anyways all this to say that Tyrion is no better or worse than a lot of the other asoiaf characters. Labelling him as evil in part bc of him being described as demonic, ugly, or misshapen isnt interesting or cute, it’s simply ableist. Any reading of his character that doesn’t include an understanding / analysis of him as a disabled man is an incorrect and incomplete reading of his character. Ableists stfu challenge

oh your ramblings are always welcome here! to be honest, now that you mentioned, i'm thinking about this thing, like - brienne is like a window into jaime. (i love jaime too, so i get what you're saying). through her eyes we see him in a different light; we genuinely like him and root for him. (a very hard thing to do before brienne, honestly, or before jaime becomes a POV character. jaime as POV character is simply one of the best things of the series, i think, but even in his own POV he is not very likable. he is interesting! those are different things.)

we don't have a similar character yet, a sort of reader-insert, to make us sympathetic about tyrion, at least not a POV character. maybe because i am biased (i have already decided to devote my life to love this character) i think there's A LOT OF EVIDENCE that we, as readers, are supposed to have empathy for tyrion right there in the text. but in the world of the characters, i think george made this really interesting thing of... i don't know, almost spreading the sympathy people have for tyrion? it comes in small, homeopathic doses. it's thin. and the only person who truly loves tyrion in that world is jaime, but jaime is partially responsible for tyrion's greatest pain and trauma, like, ever. (sometimes i want to scream when i think about this, lol) and then tyrion finds out about this and he literally becomes the actual worst. this is how important jaime is to him.

anyway, what i'm trying to say is: i think when tyrion and dany meet in the books, this might change. i think dany will be, for tyrion, and in many things, what brienne is to jaime - not a romantic interest necessarily, but a POV character that sees him in a different light. (or maybe she won't! maybe they'll destroy each other. but i have so much hope for them lol like you don't have any idea.)