#and not because I don't like my language or whatever. but because greece is very racist

[dolokhoded]

thinking about song of the ocean from dimitris papadimitriou's moby dick musical... girl.....girl.....

[la-pheacienne]

For which polity did the Targaryens colonize Westeros to usurp and exploit its natural resources and raw materials to send back to/finance the main hub of the empire ? Valyria is dead and gone by the time Aegon and his sisters conquers Westeros. A lot of people forget that colonialism is at the end of the day an economic infrastructure for the imperial polity to extract labor or resources to accumulate wealth.

Pre-colonial empires include the Aztecs, Incas, Mughals, Mongols, etc. We don’t conceive of them as colonizers in the way we conceive of Western Europeans as colonizers and there’s a reason for that. Colonialism has a very specific class character. Colonialism is a system which actively denied democracy and freedom to entire races and regions.

If the Targaryens were colonizers then they wouldn’t stay and intermarry with the people or retain the practices or integrate with the cultures of Westeros. They’d use either indirect or direct colonial rule. If direct there would be Valyrian settlers in Westeros.

Aegon literally never imposed the Valyrian costumes to Westeros, he didn't enslaved anyone, didn't forced them to give up their faith, culture and language because it's barbaric.

The use of the term "colonialism" especially associated with the term "white supremacy" in the context of the ASOIAF universe immediately proves that the person speaking is functionally/literally illiterate. Like, it's not even worth trying to form arguments against it. I won't bother explaining what should be obvious to everyone with a brain.

Unfortunately it's the anti-war agenda again. War is bad = all wars are evil = all leaders to war are evil = all leaders to war are colonialists/white supremacists. Give me a break.

To be fair I understand people are sensitive to certain things concerning politics. First example is me. I am Greek and Greek people have been literally tortured for 4 fucking centuries by Ottomans and YET I watched an entire TV show about the very same Ottoman empire and not once did I say "oooh but Suleyman is evilll because he conquered and enslaved Greeks so I should boycott the show". Yes there were many people saying that in Greece, I won't exactly accuse them, even though I don't share their opinion. BUT we are talking about actual historical characters and actual historical periods. Like, real history. And I still didn't care. I loved it. Yes, I am much more sensitive if we talk about more recent history, I would never in my life watch a show about Kemal Atatürc. Yes he was very important for Turkish people, but I have an agenda against him as a Greek person so I really don't want him in any TV show/movie/book, I'd rather ignore his existence basically. But this is very recent and very sensitive for me, and it is also real. Like, real politics.

But watching a show/reading a fantasy book for more than a decade and projecting onto the story real political issues that have nothing to do with the story, then not boycotting said story, and instead supporting everybody else apart from the fucking protagonists is so incredibly stupid. If you think the story is promoting "war and conquest and invasion" and if you think that's a bad thing, BOYCOTT THE SHOW. SIMPLE. But they don't do that, no. They (hate-)watch the show and they actually imagine that the true message behind it is "anti-war" and that every leader to war is evil. They are literally replacing the story with their own version of the story. And even worse! They apply this shit only to Dany because she is a woman with blond hair so she is white saviour or whatever and they stan literally everybody else that does the exact same shit as Dany, just without the dragons. And then they stan the greens out of pure hatred for Dany, because that's literally the ONLY REASON green stans exist. Pitiful.

I saw this post yesterday (the following is a screenshot) :

...

....

This is a very nice specimen of the "anti-war" agenda. "Peaceful ruling house". Which house in history was "peaceful"? Not one. I repeat. Not one. OP has confused ASOIAF/Fire and Blood with Gilmore Girls. They are literally using noble house mottos without understanding anything about the context of the story which is the following: a bunch of noble Houses starting wars for their survival and extension of their power, again and again and again. All these houses literally started wars and conquered people. All of them. The Hightower house is an anti war, peaceful ruling house? Lol? The same house that literally started a war that literally destroyed the realm? The Starks did not start wars? Oh, except when they conquered the whole North, by force? That wasn't a war? Lmao.

TLDR: To answer the question : colonialism and the anti-war agenda have nothing to do with ASOIAF. People do not understand the story and project their own political agenda onto the story, which leads to severe lack of basic understanding. This is the reason Targaryen antis and Green stans exist. Everybody in the story has started war or participated in a conquest. Targaryens are just the most powerful and the winners, that's all.

[deep-hearts-core]

1996

i'm not reviewing the songs from the prequalifying round here. those will be in a separate post after and not included in my yearly top or average table (just as i don't count the songs from 2020, or ro 2016/ru 2017).

Turkey This rocks - the piano part in the instrumental is super catchy and memorable. And ofc I think Sebnem's voice is great and she has a good, subtle stage presence. The prechorus is a bit of a vibe killer, though, it feels really off and destroys the momentum.

UK Gina G herself is undoubtedly the best thing about this performance. I like to watch her and I like the way she looks in that dress. However, her backup dancers are simply too hype (the routine could have been pared down or eliminated altogether) and whatever camera or lighting effects they were trying to do don't come across well, at least not 25 years later. The song is just ok. A little too frenetic for my liking but not terrible.

Spain That's a pass from me - it's better once the beat kicks in but I'm pretty bored by the whole thing and I don't like his voice.

Portugal This is a hard one. On the one hand, the sections of the song don't cohere, leaving it pretty jumbled-sounding. On the other, I like all of the different sections of it, even though I don't think it works as one piece. So it's good, but also fragmented.

Cyprus He sounds good, but again, I am bored. Ranks above Spain because he just sounds better.

Malta It's a very good song for her. It isn't personally to my taste, though, and more importantly there are moments where she overperforms physically and that affects her singing. But ultimately she looks good and sounds good for most of the song and we have to give her credit for that.

block ranking: Turkey > Portugal > Malta > UK > Cyprus > Spain (this was hard!)

Croatia Those screamed notes my GOD. Just. Frankly startling. Not welcome. Certainly, uh, gives the song a unique character. Ignoring those (hard not to), it's an OK song but she's got so much vibrato. Too much. I don't like it.

Austria Ok, let me get this straight, it's a gospel song sung in Austrian dialect by a guy who sounds like Elvis but just sits at the piano the whole time? Ok! Great! Um, I fucking love this and I think it's a lot of fun but I think it's also performative multiculturalism at its finest and that George sitting at the piano the whole time really detracts from the performance. His backup singers were so much more fun to watch - the male backup singer probably could have performed this as the lead artist and it would have gone better.

Switzerland I am learning why everyone hates ballads.

Greece What I will say is that this year is turning out to have a hard dichotomy between "good songs" and "boring songs" and while this is less boring than the last one it fails to capture my attention. The most memorable thing about it is the photobooth filter.

Estonia Maarja-Liis has a really beautiful voice, but it doesn't match too well with Ivo's, and the song doesn't have as much structure as I want it to. I'm never certain on where the verse is and where the chorus is.

Norway Something funny about her vocal quality on the word "evighet". A little too shrill, she's not exactly on the pitch or there's something wrong with her vowel or I don't know, it just sounds wrong. Anyway this is one of the better ballads, it's beautiful and all, but I /still/ find my thoughts wandering all over the place.

block ranking: Austria > Norway > Estonia > Croatia > Greece > Switzerland

France It's nice but I'm BORED! aGAIN! why is this contest so excruciating every other song. Please god. I wanted this to be good I wanted a good minority language song and then it was not that.

Slovenia This one is ok. She sounds good and there's some interesting chord progression stuff going on.

Netherlands Probably felt a little dated at the time, but here it is a welcome break from the deluge of boredom! There's good vocal match here and they seem comfortable with each other onstage too.

Belgium I'm glad it was another upbeat one but it wasn't the best of the upbeat songs for me tbh. I liked the card visual effect. And the further back I watch the funnier it is for me to see the camera effects like we've been seeing all night here. Poland 2022 did not come out of a vacuum, people!

Ireland It's different from everything else we've seen so far, and Eimear has incredible control over her voice. Her soprano range is light and airy and she makes hitting all those notes seem effortless. I wish there was something more to it, it feels like something is missing. But I am definitely not complaining about its win.

Finland It was okay? Nice guitar. It felt cohesive which is probably the most I can say for it.

block ranking: Ireland > Netherlands > Finland > Belgium > Slovenia > France

Iceland She sings this just fine but I do not really like jazz, sorry Anna

Poland One of the better ballads, it has good movement to it. She sounds very strained vocally though.

B&H This year is going to be so hard to rank because all the ballads are going to blend together and it's going to be awful

Slovakia Gets points above all the other ballads because of how gorgeous this man's voice is.

Sweden This is so unlike what I usually conceive of Sweden sending but I kinda like it. Nice passing tones in the chorus. Idunno.

My top 23 1)Austria 2)UK 3)Turkey 4)Portugal 5)Slovakia 6)Norway 7)Malta 8)Ireland 9)Netherlands 10)Slovenia 11)Sweden 12)Cyprus 13)Estonia 14)Croatia 15)Finland 16)Belgium 17)Greece 18)Switzerland 19)Iceland 20)Spain 21)Poland 22)France 23)B&H

^^ not sure what tf this is. the ranking's a mess, and i'm realizing that i maybe enjoyed, like, four songs out of 23. godddd.

Miscellaneous Thoughts at least these hosts did a good job. they're pretty funny and had good chemistry with each other, and the male host is a really good singer! especially obsessed with him trying to talk to the austrian guy's mom in german and being so utterly confused. i'm also a fan of the green screen scoreboard. all in all i think this was a well-done show, just with shit songs. it's very interesting for me, watching this voting sequence. ireland, about to get their 7th win, soared ahead in the juries very quickly, making the winner fairly obvious from the jump; i imagine that audiences in 1996 felt rather the same way as audiences in 2023 when loreen did the same. it's likely no coincidence that televoting was trialed the next year. i know that the ebu is likewise in discussions about the format and weighting of the juries. and lastly, it's kind of funny how ireland gave their 12 this year to sweden. the country at its peak, about to fall from grace, handing over their 12 to the country that will tie their record. [brb googling who sweden gave their douze to this year] oh, it was finland? in both the juries and the public? hm i guess we better get ready for finnish domination at some point in the next 30 years!

[butterbabyflapjack]

It would be an honour to me if I could have a nice tea with you and talk for endless hours! You're my favourite (alive🤣) writer! And you have that talent... You make me fall in love with literally every character you write about! I hope you understand the power you bear!😝

I'm a greek woman and last year I spent many hours creating my own stories about all the Dark Souls characters I was (and still am) interested about. I wish I could at least give you the chance to read them... Unfortunately they're in greek... And damn... There are not many interested in such a small country for my content:P It's a bit rare for people to play those games that I give my soul for...🥺

I find you a very cool person! That Strade chapter was a big cliffhanger! I reeeealy want to read the next one when it's ready! But please don't take it as pressure! Do whatever you enjoy!🤭

LOVEEEE YOUUUUUUUUU!❤️❤️❤️

(If you ever come to Greece for vacation let us know!🤣🤣🤣)

(I feel like I said many random things but fak it! I'm giving it!😊)

Look, anon, I know you're probably not around anymore, seeing as how I kept this ask in my inbox for a millennia, but it's only because I liked keeping it's warmth and friendliness in there so much😂💕 but now I'll finally release it free into the wild. I would LOVE to drink tea with you and talk for hours!! 💕💗 I wish I knew Greek so I could read your Dark Souls stories!!! Auughh I bet they're so good 😫😫😭 There really isn't enough Souls content imo, never enough, so I think you should post your stories regardless of what language you write them in! 💗 I'll use Google translate to read them! This is one of my fav asks, you're so fucking nice, I'm omw to Greece right now so we can hang out 😂😂💕 but for real, anon, I LOVE YOU TOO!!! 💗💕✨

[eurotastic]

Eurovision Reviews: Semi final 1 2022

It's Eurovision season again, wooooooooooooo!!!

1: Albania: Ronela Hajati - Sekret

This is a complete mess and I mean that as a compliment.

6/10

2: Latvia: Citi Zēni - Eat Your Salad

This song will have all of Europe screaming "PUSSY! at the same time, and we should all be grateful for that.

8/10

3: Lithuania: Monika Liu - Sentimentai

This song makes me think of a movie scene - the year is 1972, there's a smoky jazz club somewhere in Eastern Europe, and a spy is there for an important secret meeting with a local crime boss, and of course, while all this is happening, Monika is on stage singing this song. Someone probably gets shot at the end. The song just takes me away to another era, I guess.

7/10

4: Switzerland: Marius Bear - Boys Do Cry

I'm not one of those fans who automatically thinks ballads are boring, but I think ballads require an outstanding vocal performance and/or impressive staging, and/or a really unique performer to really work in the competition. This song has none of those things, so that makes it the most boring song of the year.

2/10

5: Slovenia: LPS - Disko

This would probably be really impressive at a high school talent show, but it's nowhere near good enough for the Eurovision stage. It's just amateur hour, these kids aren't ready for an audience this big.

2/10

6: Ukraine: Kalush Orchestra - Stefania

Nobody does it like Ukraine. Hip hop in Eurovision hasn't been too successful historically, but if any hip hop song ever stands a chance of winning it's this one, and that is because of its own merits in songwriting, production and staging, even without the massive wave of sympathy votes it would be a deserving winner.

10/10

7: Bulgaria: Intelligent Music Project - Intention

Some local dads are playing some songs at the local pub - their cover songs are alright, but once they announce that it's time for an original song, the audience runs for the hills.

3/10

8: Netherlands: S10 - De Diepte

"Dadadadadadada. Ooooooh. Aaaaaaaaah. Dadadadada." I think this song is absolutely beautiful, and I love hearing the Dutch language, but I wish it had a little more lyrical content and less repeated nonsense syllables. I'm just nitpicking though, this sounds really great.

8/10

9: Moldova: Zdob şi Zdub & Fraţii Advahov - Trenuleţul

I love Zdob si Zdub, and I have loved them for 17 years. Some of my readers haven't even been alive for that long ☠️ As a song, this is my favorite of their three entries - the Ramones reference is so much fun, and I actually really love the revamped version which adds some extra punk rock elements. With all this said, this is by far their weakest staging, so I'm worried about this song being their first NQ...

8/10

10: Portugal: Maro - Saudade, saudade

There's a very fine line between atmospheric and sleepy, and I'm not sure where this one falls.

5/10

11: Croatia: Mia Dimšić - Guilty Pleasure

I actually really enjoy this song, but I can't think of a single thing to say about it. It's cute but inoffensive, so it's going nowhere in the competition.

6/10

12: Denmark: Reddi - The Show

This is the most aggressively okay song of the year. It's fine, it's whatever.

5/10

13: Austria: LUM!X & Pia Maria - Halo

Are the kids bringing back 90s eurodance now? This sounds ridiculous, it's too fast, her singing is way too high pitched, and I would call the production horribly dated if it wasn't made by someone born in, like, 2003. There's always room for cheesy dance music in this competition, though.

5/10

14: Iceland: Systur - Með hækkandi sól

In recent years, I have come to expect a lot from Iceland, and this is a huge disappointment. It's the color beige in musical form, and don't get me wrong, I would definitely wear a nice beige linen shirt to the office, but I wouldn't wear it to Eurovision.

3/10

15: Greece: Amanda Tenfjord - Die Together

I love the a capella vocoder vibe this song has going in the beginning, but then it doesn't really go anywhere with it, it just becomes a beautiful but basic ballad. I wish the instrumentation felt more unconventional in the rest of the song, the dramatic ending feels a little bland. I'm nitpicking because this is a really good song which could have been great with some small changes.

8/10

16: Norway: Subwoolfer - Give That Wolf a Banana

It feels really weird when the biggest joke act of the year is also the most well made EDM song in recent eurovision memory. I wish they did much more with the staging though, it feels pretty underwhelming right now.

6/10

17: Armenia: Rosa Linn - Snap

I usually really hate this specific type of Lumineers-style acoustic guitar music but this one feels okay. I think I really like Rosa Linn as a singer, I just get a good vibe from her, so I can ignore how dull the production is on this song. The staging is probably one of the best of the year, so it gets bonus points for that.

6/10

[margridarnauds]

hi! i was wondering if you knew- does the lebor gabala erenn have any known authors? or, at very least, is the person who compiled all the pieces in it known?

Sorry for how long this took! I'd say it's that time in the semester but...it's. Always that time in the semester. But, in my defense, this is the kind of question you don't skimp on, and it's one dear to my heart because I've actually been considering doing a small series called "mythmakers" on the different personalities behind some of the myths, mainly because (1) I feel like we get very comfortable, myself included, as treating these as sort of...floating stories that don't have an author, that they're all part of some consensus, when they were very much authored and (2) because I feel a certain debt to them, since they DID preserve the texts I love. I owe them for that, and so does every Celticist who's used a manuscript they copied down.

So, you've probably gotten tired of me saying this, but first off, we've got to ask ourselves "What IS Lebor Gabála Érenn?" And the answer is surprisingly complex. Because, on the surface, you could say "It's a pseudohistorical text written in the 11th century, one of the key parts of the collection of medieval Irish texts commonly if not anachronistically called 'The mythological Cycle', that details the history of the Irish people from the time of Noah to time of the historical Irish kings." And you wouldn't be WRONG. Not necessarily.

BUT: Here's the thing when we say that: We don't mention that it's divided into four recensions (I always want to say five, please feel free to give me a virtual bitchslap when I do, it's generally considered to be four) divided into sixteen individual manuscripts that are considered to substantially differ from one another, and multiple other copies. I believe I once read that just about every important scribe of the time would have had his own copy to use as a reference and, though I wouldn't want to be quoted on that, I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

Furthermore, there is substantial evidence supporting the existence of a "proto LGE" that didn't survive. We know that it showed up in Cín Dromma Snechtai, aka the Holy Grail of any expert in medieval Irish literature, which contained a number of early texts and might have dated back as far as the 8th century. (The latest possible dating is the 10th century, though, to my knowledge, the 8th century dating is generally viewed as being the correct one.) Even if we are to assume the latest dating for CDS, we know that some version of LGE was available to the anonymous writer of the Historia Brittonum, because he used it as a source and brought in the Irish invasions (notably NOT including the Tuatha Dé and Fir Bolg, even though a group similar to the Fir Bolg settle just off of Ireland in this account.) We know, therefore, that the TDD and the Fir Bolg were relatively late to the scheme (though we also know that the CDS version DID include, for example, the Fir Bolg's captivity in Greece, because one of the scribes of LGE mentions them stealing ships from the King of Greece in their escape.)

So, to recap: We have at least ONE pre-LGE LGE, then a gap of a period of time before our first surviving recension, in the 11th century (the oldest manuscript is 12th century, but the language is ~11th). Do I think that more were made in-between the time of Historia Brittonum and the 11th century? Absolutely. I can't see them NOT, given how important this was to them. I think that there was probably an increased *demand* after the 11th century, but I don't see any reason for a gap of as many as three hundred years. But, if these copies and recensions existed, they're lost. Just like CDS and whatever manuscript the author of Historia Brittonum was using. Like...again, I know this is something that I harp on about and harp on about, but...there's such a feeling of loss at times in this field. It's so sad sometimes looking back and just....imagining what the world could have looked like if things had been different, better. (And like, I want to emphasize, before I'm accused of getting teary eyed over manuscripts instead of people: It's never JUST the manuscripts. It's...it's everything. The manuscripts are just easier to conceptualize. Because I feel like if you try to wrap your head around EVERYTHING, all at once...you'll go a bit insane.) Like, there was this booming manuscript tradition, one of the richest in Europe at its time and so much is just. Gone. And there's so much we don't know and can't know and so much we still have to do because of all the years that we've spent playing catch up.

But. Happier stuff.

What I'm saying is, we can't know the individual name of the first person to compile the wonderful scrapbook of mythological material known as LGE together. That being said...we do know the names of at least some of the poets who wrote poetry for LGE, the poems being integrated into the text.

Eochaid Ua Floinn (936-1004) -

Flann Mainistrech mac Ethigrinn (died 1056)

Mael Muru Othna (died 887)

Tanaide (died 1075)

Gilla Cómáin mac Gilla Samthainde (alive in 1072)

Many of the most famous sections of the text actually come from one of these men -- such as, for example, the Death Tales of the Tuatha Dé (that was one by Flann, for the curious.)

You'll note that most of these poets were active in the mid-11th century -- their poetry wasn't written FOR LGE, but it was included by the anonymous compiler, and they were probably written about the time that it was compiled. And, to us, this seems very normal because it's the LGE we know, but sometimes I do think about what if we were creating a massive book all about the History of the World , and we decided to include Taylor Swift, Britney Spears, Justin Beiber, and Billie Eilish songs. Not to say that they aren't GOOD, but like. You have to be damn confident that they would stand the test of time. (Of course...we know in LGE's case....they DID.)

Here are the known scribes, as noted by Mark Scowcroft in his groundbreaking study of LGE, Leabhar Gabala: The Growth of the Text:

Recension 1:

Aed mac Crimthainn, the Book of Leinster

Ádam Ó Cianáin, the Book of Fermoy (WONDERFUL clear handwriting, by the way.) James Carney wrote an article on his work back in 1969, 'The Ó Cianáin Miscellany'. An interesting man in what little we have left of him, it appears that he studied under another scribe, Seóan Mor Ó Dubhagán. On one manuscript that he was writing in, we see the inscription by another scribe, possibly another student, below a little cipher, signed "Gilla Patraig", that says "ni melladh meraighi so 7 ar Dhia re Adumh na foillseagheadh do duine eile e" (this is no crazy deception, and for God's sake don't let Adam show it to anyone else.) Which gives the wonderful image of two young students creating a secret code, possibly to pass notes to one another, and the other one KNOWING that the other one is just ITCHING to tell it to someone else. Students have always been students.

Recension 2:

Torna Ó Maoil-Chonaire, TCD MS E.3.5, no. 2 (died in 1532). His son, Seán, had a school of learning that is mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters as "the tutor of the men of Ireland in general in history and chronology, and who had all that were in Ireland learning that science under his tuition." Clearly, his father left a great legacy.

Ádam Ó Cuirnín, The Great Book of Lecan (written 1418). He was, apparently, an apprentice of Mac Fir Bhisigh, listed below, and, along with him and Murchad Riabach Ó Cuindlis, wrote the Banshenchus. (Along with others, of course, given that the Great Book of Lecan is...the GREAT Book of Lecan for a reason.)

Muirges mac Páidín Ua Maoil-Chonaire, RIA MS Stowe D.iv.3 (who died 1543 according to the Annals of the Four Masters)

Dubaltach mac Sémuis, NLI Philipps MS 10266

Luán mac Taidg, RIA MS 24.P.13 (written 1621)

Domhnall Ó Téinn, RIA MS 23.H.28 (18th century) He also transcribed, among others, Leabhar na Ceart (the Book of Rights, a legal tract) and the Annals of Innisfallen.

Seán or Diarmaid Ó Réagáin, British Library MS Addit. 18948 (written 1829-1835 -- yes, REALLY, that is NOT a typo -- you had manuscripts being created in Ireland up until the 19th century, there was an actual business for scribes who could read and copy manuscripts, though, as in the case here, they sometimes modernized the language.)

Recension 3:

Gilla Ísu Mac Fir Bhisigh, the Great Book of Lecan, 1417-1418. You might recognize the surname -- they were one of the most prominent scribal families of the time, particularly with regards to geneologies. His son, Tomás Cam, has been identified as the scribe of parts of the Yellow Book of Lecan, the Book of Lecan, and several others by Tomás Ó Concheanainn, and a member of the family, Dubhaltach mac Fhirbhisigh, wrote the absolutely massive work known as Leabhar na nGenealach, and was one of the last of the great scribal families alive in Ireland when he wrote it down in the mid 17th century.

Magnus Ó Dubhgennáin, the Book of Ballymote, written between 1384-1406

Richard Tipper, TCD MS H.2.4 (1728)

Tadhg Ó Neachtain, TCD MS H.1.15 (1745)

Aodh Ó Dálaigh, RIA MS Stowe D.iii.2 (1746). Part of a longstanding family of poets. Employed by Francis Stoughton Sullivan, a Fellow at Trinity College. Standish Hayes O'Grady would write, regarding his pen, that [O'Dalys' transcriptions] suggest that both his patron was very easily satisfied, and that ink was not the only fluid present on the scribal table."  OUCH. Still, as noted by Ní Shéaghdha in her article, "Irish scholars and scribes in eighteenth-century Dublin”, he was employed for 16 years, longer than some of his more brilliant, but feckless contemporaries and, along with LGE, he wrote down the poems in the Liber Hymnorum, which has become hopelessly faded over the years and is preserved in his transcription work.

One thing that Scowcroft points out, and that I'm going to parrot, is that these three 18th century manuscripts all contain sections that were lost in the earlier manuscripts and, again, not to keep going on about this, but that is another reminder of how *fragile* these texts are. If it weren't for these three guys writing well after the time we generally associate with the production of manuscripts was over...we wouldn't have whole sections of the work. And they knew what they were doing -- they were part of a circle that actively sought to preserve and transcribe as many manuscripts as possible and that are responsible for the preservation of many of the manuscripts that are currently still in existence.

LGE is...a magnificent text. Truly one of a kind among Irish manuscripts and....honestly pretty unique in a general European context as well. It's a contradictory, challenging scrapbook of a text, with hundreds of hands at least going into its creation (you saw the ones I just mentioned, but what about the scribes who took over when the others were having an off day? Their students? Their mentors? Their friends? It's not uncommon to see multiple hands in a manuscript, so you have to take that into account. What about the lost texts? All the copies?), every single one with his own ideas of how a text like this should look and with their own biases, life histories, and cultural contexts (when you consider that you're dealing with scribes from at least the 11th century to the 19th, over 800 very turbulent years.) Every single one of the poets I cited, even though they lived roughly contemporary to one another, also had their own thoughts on the texts they were writing, their own reasons for writing them down.

They often disagreed, VIGOROUSLY. They often insulted one another's scholarship. And yet....every single one of them, even and perhaps especially the ones who remain anonymous, including that anonymous 11th century compiler who put all the material from all these places together and put them into one manuscript, was part of something great. Because of their work, because of how beloved and respected this work was, it did something that so many didn't: Survive. LGE does not represent a single text so much as it represents a tradition, one that...to some extent, I consider myself a part of. If you ever get that book done, you'll be a part of it. Not in the way that they were, not in the same cultural context, but...we all love this material, enough to fight for it, enough to do what we can to preserve it in some way and carry it on. Whether we're working by candelight or a LCD monitor. I just hope that, if there's any sort of afterlife out there, they know that...even if some of them are only known by their names, and some of them didn't even get that...we haven't forgotten, and it wasn't in vain.

[classicslesbianopinions]

Italian here. I don't know if I count in the Discourse but in Italy we have a specific "brand" of high school called "classical" high school (but now I'm in Greece for an exchange program) where we start to study Latin and Ancient Greek as soon as we enter (and some kids I know start studying Latin in like. middle school) and even if I'm not the best in these subjects I still like. Have a pretty wide knowledge on myths and stuff (also because we have mandatory epic and ancient literature classes throughout middle school and high school) and sometimes it baffles me to see with how much confidence usamericans come here talking absolute nonsense about these kind of subjects without understanding the basic core of them. Like, all the myths have different versions due to oral transmission and such or that time when Italian tumblr was joking about the tavern found in Pompeii (I don't remember precisely but it was called the whole Nicia discourse if you want to search it up) and some usamerican student came to explain to us our culture. Idk, it's weird. It's almost like they forget that Italians and Greek people still you know. Exist.

Also, after reading the articles in your pinned posts (very interesting even if I don't plan to study classics after high school) I was confused because I thought that some things were common knowledge but apparently they aren't. Like this is by no mean an universal experience I think but many of my friends and I had the luxury (?) To have well informed and left leaning teachers, so in my experience things like "the result of uncritical analysis of ancient history and mythology and literature has been used by mussolini and many other fascist ideologies and white supremacy as propaganda and explanation for their actions" or "the ancient Greeks and Romans weren't all white with blue eyes and blonde hair and their societies were way more multicultural than our" are stuff that the teacher tell you on day one of middle school even.

(I was the one who sent the troy 2004 anon with the middle school teacher, and one of the things I'll never forget about that lesson were all the times she told us "yeah OF COUSE they weren't this white all with blonde hair and blue eyes. This movie it's so american").

I think it's important to have this kind of discussions but I think that if you are this invested in classics you should try to read stuff written by people who actually live in the Mediterranean (and this means also people from North Africa and West Asia of course) or at least try to listen to us when we talk about stuff that in a good way or in a bad way is part of our heritage and culture. Some other Italian and Greek users have formulate this in a better way but I hope this wasn't much of a bother. Have a nice timezone!

okay "have a nice timezone" is maybe the best online signoff i've heard... and you're definitely never a bother. i promise everyone in our inbox, as long as you're not being like... actively mean or engaging in bad faith, you're not a bother! and especially if english isn't your first language, we are very happy to hear from you and with whatever wording you've got! i'm really enjoying the conversations we've been having on here.

but! yeah okay so 1. you totally count in the discourse, we've got people coming in from all sides and i really appreciate your input! 2. i think like... there's two sides to classics (as an american classicist). there's the actual stories and traditions and the way they've come through to the modern day, and then there's the way people have manipulated and used those stories and traditions over time (which is more like... where the articles in our pinned post come in). and both are important to study and be aware of.

so like, yeah. i can only speak for my experience, but i can say that my experience has not done nearly enough to consider the people still living in the mediterranean, and it also has not considered the full mediterranean-- like, we don't really talk about mediterranean areas outside of greece and rome unless they feature prominently in a latin or greek text.

and i have also seen patriarchy, white supremacy, and (i don't know how to phrase this) enforced christianity? i guess? in action, and i can see how those things have shaped classics as a field over the years. like, actually nothing said about classics in the pinned articles was like... all that surprising to me? there were insightful points, of course, but it felt very accurate to what i've seen and heard in the field. and seeing and hearing all that in the field almost turned me away from academia entirely. so i'm really glad people are talking about it. so i guess i would say from a usamerican perspective/experience, those articles felt 100% accurate, and i'm glad you had a different experience.

and like, as a usamerican classicist, i think it's important to study the context of classics throughout history of the united states. this interview (from the pinned post) talks about what classics means for the Black community in the united states, both in terms of how classics have been forced on them as part of their history of oppression, and in terms of what it's like to read the actual texts and see what's actually there (which, like you say about troy-- it's not actually a bunch of white blonde people!).

and like... white europeans have projected ourselves onto the classics for so many years that like... we can't ignore that. and yeah i do think the best way to cut past a lot of that projection is to go back to the original texts, actually read them with an open mind, and listen to what people who have a direct connection to that heritage and religion have to say; we have such a strange disconnect between past and present in the united states.

but a lot of it is also examining the history and context of these works in more recent history (by which i mean... anytime in the last couple thousand years). which also includes listening to people of color (and other marginalized people) when they talk about how these works and societies have been weaponized against them over the years-- which is what a couple of the pinned articles are there for. like studying how the texts have been used and weaponized is its own whole thing. like, it's a whole aspect of the field.

oh and also i would add that the us education system is uh... not that great. so. it's not surprising to me that people think they know a lot when they only know a little, but it is discouraging.

and i've gone on FOREVER but i don't think i really have like. the full knowledge/research/context to like... really talk about this, this is like. just me rambling. and i welcome any further discussion or feedback!

[zephycluster]

Precolonial HWS SEA Rant Post, feel free to ignore

If you're still reading, then you're probably looking for evidence or some juicy tidbits to throw back at me or to try and find dirt to cancel me, like typical Tumblr/Twitter. Go ahead, I don't really care.

First off, let me just say that If you like Precolonial South-East Asia AUs, feel free to keep enjoying them. I will respectfully support your passions from afar. This post is just to explain why I don't like it, especially the way they keep insisting/portraying PH in it.

Still here? Then let me begin.

Since the recent confirmation that the ASEAN Six Majors (Can't really say ASEAN 10 atm since it's still missing some people) Were completed and the Ma-Phil-Indo Trio was included, there has been a large surge in 'Precolonial' fanarts and portrayals of South East Asians, those three especially.

Even long, long before, circa 2010's ish, a rather well-known fan universe known as 'Maaf' dealt with their story and how their Author thought their intertwined histories went. Written by (my best guesstimate) an Indonesian writer who wants to explore the old, SEA bond.

When I first stumbled across Maaf (I was in Highschool at the time, around age 16-ish), I took a casual interest in it and tried to read it through. But, I will wholeheartedly admit that at the time, Pre-Colonial cultures of South-East Asia in general, let alone Philippine, did not really interest me that much. The focus (I think) was mostly on Indonesia, a country I didn't really know back then, and the liberal use of 'ancient' names and artwork just made it feel like an entirely Original Work (that needed a degree in History to really appreciate) and not something from Hetalia. I also completely disagreed with what I could gather was the story's portrayal of PH but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Do I hate 'Maaf'? No, I don't hate it. Do I wish I never came across it or that it didn't exist? Of course not. Just because I didn't enjoy it or appreciate it that well doesn't mean I wish any ill toward it, its fans, or its creator.

Fast forward to April 2021, the long awaited inclusion of South East Asia to the canon Hetalia verse. I was happy, the other fans were happy, all was good.

Then started the questionable fanarts, fan theories and fan pairings.

Especially the expansion of Precolonial! PH.

Let's go back to Maaf for one moment. From what I understood of Maaf, PH there was a character who once was like all the other South East Asian cultures, trading with them, all around being a nice family.

But all that changed when the Spaniards attacked, so cry the precolonial buffs. They destroyed everything, ransacked and marginalized the tribes, erased everything that PH was!

Did that happen? ABSOLUTELY. The Spaniards had this vision in mind that they must spread Christianity to all of the 'savage, unchristian heathens' of their realm. :V /s

But back up a second, back to PH's portrayal in Maaf. The way she (yeah, she) was portrayed there was that she was slowly losing her memories of being a 'true' South East Asian and grew more and more westernized in the process, like some sort of Culture-specific Alzheimer's or something.

Firstly, that is seriously depressing, and secondly, I just really don't see that happening.

Here's why.

Point 1: Even before Colonial Masters, Filipinos as a people cannot agree on anything.

I'll just begin this segment with a Philippine proverb that outlines what Filipinos call 'Crab Mentality' or 'Crab Bucket Mentality'.

"You don't need a lid for a container when you're keeping multiple crabs. If you keep at least two crabs together, they will just pull each other down instead of helping each other up."

I don't know how it goes with Indonesian or Malaysian history class, but what I know of my homeland, both pre- and post-colonial history, we were never really 'united' or 'together' in the sense that Indonesia and Malaysia were (from what I assume).

Let me pull up a somewhat related question on r/AskHistorians.

The reason I brought this up as it shows the reasons why, in my opinion, a single entity that is 'Precolonial Philippines-tan' is an impossibility.

The answers are long and would extend this already long post to stupid proportions, so I'll just quote relevant sentences. The link is here for those that wanna deep-dive into the answer.

"All this to say that there wasn't a name used for the entire Philippine islands before the Philippines that people now would agree to. An interesting comparison would be the Holy Roman Empire, which might also be characterized as disparate politico-geographic groups of relatively small size that had a history of relations between each other, but one thing they had that the Philippines did not was a common language, or at least a family of mostly mutually intelligible languages, so that the name Deutschland or Germany isn't terribly offensive to anyone. If you called the Philippines the 'Lupang-Tagalog' or even 'Lupang-Tao' the other ethnic groups would protest."

For those in need of translation, 'Lupang Tagalog' means 'Land of the Tagalogs' and 'Lupang Tao' means 'Land of People', specifically. The first one is already exclusive and offensive, as the Tagalog peoples are but one of many ethnicities here.

And for the 'Lupang Tagalog' suggestion specifically, it's even more offensive as they are the majority ethnicity (not by much, just around 28%) From this chart from Geography Now! It would basically be alienating everyone else in the 72% remainder that isn't 'Tagalog'.

And even 'Lupang Tao', the most generic name in a local language you can think of, would be met with contempt because the name itself is in the Tagalog language.

Just travelling between two individual island groups today would sometimes require a translator because the words can change very rapidly and very drastically. Here's a sample of some differences coming from a friend living in Visayas (in Red) vs. the words I know living in Luzon (In blue).

Ate vs. Manang = Older Sister

Ibon vs. Pispis = Bird

Tumawa vs. Kadlaw = To laugh

Takot vs. Hadlok = Fear

Kain vs. Kaon = To eat

Ngayon vs. Subong = Now, at this point in time

Iyak vs. Hibi/Gibi = to cry

Talampakan vs. Tiil = Foot (in Tagalog, the word retains its 'body part AND unit of measurement' meaning)

Tulog vs. Tuyo = to sleep (Tuyo in Tagalog is either a dried salted fish or 'to dry')

The kicker is that just like Tagalog is just one of many languages here, so too is the language my friend speaks. Ask an entirely new person, like someone from Mindanao, they'll probably have an entirely new set of words.

It's not just Luzon vs. Visayas vs. Mindanao, either. Here's a map listing some of the ethnic groups here.

Even the way they're written differs from location to location.

While we're on the subject of Island divisions, a casual skim across Twitter and Tumblr has shown that their Precolonial PH has been one of the following ancient civilizations: Tondo, Butuan, Sugbu, Namayan. There may have been others but that was what I have found.

Notice how even today, the posters of Precolonial PH can't seem to agree on what he's supposed to be? With Indonesia it's either Majapahit or Srivijaya and Malaysia it's usually Malacca iirc.

What is the big deal? Well, let's go back to the Ask Historians post. "Why didn't the Philippines ever change its name to remove the colonial mark that being named after a Spanish King has?" The answer: "If you suggested something dating to precolonial times, the other ethnic groups would protest."

Since we're on a roll with maps, let me bring this up.

As you can see, the precolonial PH posts have a reason to not be able to agree on one thing, as there is a LOT of options. Do you also see how THAT list is also split up?

It's split up into those aligned with China (Sinified), aligned with India (Indianized), aligned with the Middle East (Islamicized), and no alignment (Animist). Now, let's go back to the main suggestions for which Kingdom/Polity/Civilization/whatever Modern Philippines used to be.

If the Filipino peoples' couldn't agree on something as simple as WHAT TO CALL THE LAND THEY'RE LIVING ON, what more a living, breathing, walking, talking entity that is supposed to be a beacon of all of their 'unified' culture? ESPECIALLY if that entity used to be a currently existing Kingdom/Polity/Rajahnate/Sultanate/whatever.

Tondo? "Of course, always the damn Tagalogs. Tagalog this, Tagalog that. First the capital city, then the language,* THE REST OF US EXIST, YOU KNOW! What about us in Visayas? Mindanao?"

*The national language known as 'Filipino' is just standardized Tagalog*

Butuan? "Wait, you want Butuan to represent us? They're they only Indian-aligned city in the Islam-majority Mindanao! They're not even that many of them! I'm not gonna change my religion!"

Sugbu, the other name for the Rajahnate of Cebu on the map? Lemme bring back my Visayan friend again. According to her, she hails from the Hiligaynon part of Visayas.

"Sure :v and the other islands are what?

Chopped liver?

Not to mention the language and writing barrier helloooo"

And Namayan? Well. I'll let this pic speak for itself.

To summarize, no matter who you pick as Modern PH's previous identity, it will not end well nor be accepted by the other Kingdoms at the time.

"So where does that leave Modern PH, he had to have been ONE of them, right?"

Well, not really. He doesn't HAVE to be one of the Ancient Kingdoms that lasted till the modern day. I mean, predecessor representatives exist in Hetalia canon, after all. Like Modern Greece is a different character from Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt and Modern Egypt, heck even England and his brothers have a canon mother that was the rep before them.

Or you could even use the same logic that Germany does, in that each specific region has/had its own representative and that Modern!PH is just the 'mediator' between them (cause gawd does PH need one). There could be a Tondo, a Namayan, a Butuan, and a Sugbu, all arguing and this Proto-PH is just trying to make headway in making them all satisfied.

But, even after all this, there is another reason why I personally don't subscribe to the 'Precolonial PH' idea, and by tangential extension, the Indo x Phil pairing.

Point 2: Even without intending to, Precolonial Indo x Phil just comes off as patronizing

This second point is just ENTIRELY personal preference and barely has any facts to back it up.

Again, if you like the pairing and disagree with me, You do you. I will respectfully support you and your passions from a distance.

But for me, Indo being Phil's seme/bae/boyfriend and consistently bringing up precolonial times just comes off as patronizing.

Just one more time, I'd like to point out that I am NOT bashing Indonesia, its people or the subscribers of Indo x Phil. This is just how the pairing feels to ME specifically.

The way I see it, Indo x Phil as a pairing, especially if it extends back into precolonial times, reads the same way as a long-since married couple where the husband/wife CONSTANTLY brings up that ONE outing you had together, or that ONE prom night where you kissed while dancing, even it happened like 30 some-odd years ago and so much more happened since then.

Even in a platonic sense, It reads like two besties where one ALWAYS mentions stuff like 'Yeah but you looked so much cooler back in High School' or 'Back in Grade School you would've known that', or 'Remember back in Pre-school we did X? How could you forget that?'

How does one respond to the notion that no matter what you do now, it will never compare to a past you've already forgotten or barely remember? That the best version of 'you' is already long gone?

"That's because the westerners made you forget your culture! You gotta take it back!"

While it is true, yes, as a collective we barely remember the Kingdom that commissioned the Laguna Copperplate, or created the Banaue Rice Terraces, or created the millennia old bonds that we still share with Indonesia and Malaysia.

But to keep pushing the precolonial identity would be to neglect and cast aside the one REAL binding belief and culture that spans the entirety of these islands we call the Philippines.

We take on all the bad stuff that happens to us, conquer it, and make it our own. Be it natural disasters, foreign powers, or negative stereotypical mentalities.

Yes, we've forgotten the ancient kingdoms of old and are just now digging through the closet for those remnants of the past. Yes, the colonizers imposed that on us, and made us forget. But in the process we've also taken everything that they left behind, everything that they threw at us, and created something that can only come from us.

The lanterns that the Spaniards used to light the way to the morning masses they made us attend became our globally known symbol of Christmas. The junked vehicles that the Americans left behind in World War 2 are now rolling works of art that announce themselves loud and proud on the streets (for better or for worse). The iced dessert recipe that the Japanese forced us to learn while they were occupying the country is now so distinct and famous it is synonymous with us, and is so delicious even Italy has taken notice.

Even after all this? Even after all the 425-ish years total we have been under a foreign power, with all the progress we've made as a country, a people, and a nation, you would still imply our fragmented, jigsaw puzzle state of being in the past was better just because it was pure 'South East Asian' like everyone else?

We might not be as well put-together as Indonesia or Malaysia, but we made this melting pot of angry, leg-pulling, dogpiling, Native, Mestizo, Chinoy, and Fil-Am crabs OURS, damnit!

It's now 4:30 AM and I have work in 5 or so hours. I'll be going to sleep now.

[ghostofbambifanfiction]

Don't know if you've answered this before, why does your Lily always get a hard time accepting gifts? I know that in this particular occasion it was a lot, but I recall this happening in other fics, maybe in WATJP? (sorry if this comes rude, I don't mean it that way, English is not my first language so I don't know how to phrase the question properly)

It wouldn't be WATJP, in WATJP she and James have made a game out of exchanging acts of kindness (and reasonably priced ones at that) because they're both sweetie pies and it's been a very even exchange from the beginning. I think you might be thinking about AOUC where James is willing to sell her the painting for next to nothing, offers to book her into escape rooms for free, tells her she can use his parents' house in Greece and finally whisks her off to the Caribbean at the end?

The reason that Lily feels uncomfortable about receiving any sort of gift/gifts that she finds excessive/expensive is because she believes in equal and reciprocal relationships, so if Euphemia spends a boatload of money on her there is immediate guilt. Lily has nothing of equal or similar value that she can offer in return. Shock horror. Now she's afraid that if she accepts a gift without protest she will be perceived as a fortune hunter who is out for whatever she can get. Horror again. This fear especially applies to James because she adores and wants him for a million different reasons that have nothing to do with money but what if he can't see that? What if he thinks she wants his money? Then she'll lose the love of her life. Then her heart will be broken, and so will his.

On the other hand, if it was Beatrice who bought her an expensive gift for her birthday or something, Lily would feel absolutely fine with it because they've built their friendship on an incredibly strong foundation of showing each other love, support and affection, as well as exchanging many gifts over the years. And even if she's that close to James in one of my fics, there's still that golddigger stereotype haunting their every interaction because of her romantic feelings for him.

Plus, I also think feeling guilty around getting gifts in general is an emotion that a lot of people can relate to. I certainly feel it to some extent if I feel like I don't have the resources available to reciprocate.

[alatismeni-theitsa]

Hi! Hope you're doing well <3 I been reading some of your posts about LO and Greek culture in general! And as a non-greek I think your culture is amazing and it should be respected as any other culture, so, I had this question a little while ago

I made a couple of characters based on greek myth creatures, and I kinda had a story for them in an ancient greek inspired world (highly inspired tbh, I think it might take place in an ancient greek ambience as well), but now I think that might be insensitive (?) I don't know how to express it, but I just want to know, would it be ok if I continue with that idea or should I scratch it?

TIIIME TO FINALLY ANSWER THIS

I am really sorry for the long wait! I was trying to think how to answer this properly and also mustering the energy for it xD I will pin it so you can find it more easily, if you come back to the blog.

For starters, you can write whatever you wish. I am hesitant to say to people “you can't write this and that” because it might make people feel estranged and uncomfortable and I believe that distance serves no real purpose. Yes, it’s likely that a xenos won’t be making the story VERY culturally accurate but if the story is 30% culturally accurate as opposed to barely 5% which we see in the popular media today, then it’s still a win. Not to mention that Greeks themselves are not 100% culturally accurate most of the time in their Greek mythology stories. This happens because 1) Americanization has hit us hard 2) They write them just for fun without bothering to research much. We are also lucky if we have a 30% accuracy in our texts most of the time.

(I love percentages if you can’t tell 😂)

You might have figured out I have the tag #writing (and perhaps also #writing advice ??) where I answer these type of questions, so visiting it might help! I'm not gonna tell you if you can write it or not - you can write whatever you like - but I would advise you to treat the Greek culture like any other real or fictional culture. Do a proper “worldbuilding”, let’s say.

THE CREATURES

As you know, some are more serious and some are more playful. They don’t easily “switch” from their behaviors so it’s best to keep a serious creature serious and a playful creature playful throughout most of the story. Some reading is needed, to figure out how the ancient Greeks saw those creatures. Because assumptions are usually not helpful. If we have no clues about their behavior, that’s free real estate I guess 😂

Now, if you are going for the “almost like Greek culture but not quite” thing, that still needs similar studying. You need to know where you are basing those creatures and how they see their world - or how the world sees them. And what elements make sense to change.

You can still not base the characters nowhere and just have a gal with snakes in her head. You can do that xD However, if you like to be more in touch with the culture you need to use some context and the “ambience” you talked about. It’s another thing to say “this gal has snakes on her head“ and another to say “this is THE Medusa“.

Some Greek culture needs to shine through. I mean, it would be great if it could shine though in general, so your references and basis to Greek mythology are better. It would be safe to assume the ancient folklore creatures have some Greek culture in them since they have Greek names, they have been written in Greek stories behaving according to the Greek societal rules and ethics, and generally being symbols in Greece until our days. And your story is about Greek mythology, so you want to emphasize the Greek aspects of your heroes and world.

THE ANCIENT GREEK INSPIRED WORLD

I don't know what research you’ve done so far but I will begin from the basics anyways. Ancient Greek ambience, as you can probably guess, is not “chitons, wine, vines and white pillars” 😂 The ambience specifically doesn’t come from the aesthetics but from the feel of it - the food, the customs, the symbols, the dances, the language interjections, the behaviors and values. Parts of the culture are also how is reverence and modesty are expressed, what makes someone present “manly“ or “feminine”. So, it’s gonna take some research.

People usually write some of the aesthetic and think they are covered, even though their worldbuilding is bad, precisely because they have only presented the very top of the iceberg. No food, no dances, no certain behaviors, nothing. You could say they are “soulless Disney remakes”. 😂 You can also do that, but you need to know how it will come out. It might be quite bland and, if I am not mistaken, you said you want to avoid that. (And I think most of Greeks would tell you that they don’t mind a Greek “soulless” remake but it would be super extra great if you put cultural elements in).

Ok, I don’t mean make it like an encyclopedia, but presenting some stuff from the culture is how you get the ambience. You might as well take a writing advice list for worlbuilding stuff you must have and see which ones you can find irl from the Greek culture.

Important! Remember that nearby cultures affect each other, so if you change one element from the Greek culture it’s likely it has to be changed in other cultures next to your area. If wearing green makes you manly in Imaginary Greece, it will also make you manly in Imaginary Turkey and Imaginary Bulgaria, let’s say. (there is no “ancient Turkey” or “ancient Bulgaria” as countries - and depending on the era, “ancient Greece” is also not a thing - but you get my point xD)

For the interpersonal relationships/interactions, you can read some ancient translated texts presenting daily life situations of the ancient Greeks (start from Googling stuff, I really don’t have sources for that xD). It’s very likely that the ancient sources won’t give you a very defined feel (try it anyways, if you like). Therefore, I suggest you see interactions of modern Greek people.

Worry not! YouTube - through me xD - has you covered! Searching the tags #greek tv #greek youtuber #greek podcast and #video. On youtube you can even find vlogs of people visiting Greece and see interactions with the locals. (If you have trouble finding them, you can send me another ask).

Similarly, it might take months to find all the Greek language interjections so you can go for modern ones. Besides, many interjections like “popoo“ are ancient. Besides, if you are not making a very “serious” story, the modern touches might help it feel more in touch with the present.

Surely, people are people everywhere and humans between countries share cultural traits, but there are some slightly more predominant stuff depending on the culture. Cultures close to each other share more traits, so, if you can’t find any Greeks around, you might be able to find our neighbors. Middle Eastern, north African, or south European people (and Hispanic/Latino Americans!) around might help to understand the dynamics between friends and family members. If you already belong to some of those cultures, congrats, you have most of the formula figured out!

I gave so much space to the interpersonal relationships because that’s gonna give you an idea where the line of “respect” is. Surely, the ancient interpersonal relationships won’t be like the modern American ones  😂 There is no way a student goes to Chiron being like “hey, man, how you doin?” Knowing how Greek teachers were, as late as the 20th century, that’s gonna earn him a slap 😂

Another thing: saying “Good morning” and “good afternoon / goodnight” when you first and last see people in the day is VERY important and the best social practice! You won’t be considered rude if you don’t say them but in a slightly formal and especially professional environment, better use them. (Other modern Europeans also consider this a good practice.)

The most ancient greeting of Greeks is “be happy” (χάιρε / χαίρετε) but health is also very important and is another old greeting. Xάιρετε is more formal in our days and Γεια/Γεια σας ("have good health”) is the most used formal and informal one. Seeing how people wish health in the middle east, it might be that the Health thing has been here for centuries. Also, if you break something or something bad happens to you, we say “health” because having your health is more important than anything else.

Fun fact, “Charon“ (Χάρων) probably means “the happy one” :P It has the same root with (χάιρε / χαίρετε).

Many other social cues can be found in the tags I mentioned, but you can send me an ask if you need to know something more specific!

As for the food, you can find ancient recipes and even use modern ones (which are usually with the same ingredients). Same goes for dances and symbols. You can google stuff about them, go on Google Scholar and search there, as well. (Also, google pages where you can download those papers for free ;) ) Please do some cross examination to make sure that this element indeed exists and it’s not just one person pulling it our of their a**. 😂

If you can’t find info, you can lean on modern symbols and dances. The dances are similar through the centuries anyways. No one is going to come for you if you say you based an element on a modern Greek thing bc the ancient one was impossible to find with the resources available to you.

I don’t have many more things to add on these cultural elements because I already have tags for the modern ones. #greek cuisine #melomakarona #greek dance #greek custom #greek tradition  etc.

And, last but not least, research the weather!! I can't stress this enough 😩 We are not a desert and we are not the Tropics. If your weather is similar to the Greek one, then your creatures most likely will need some serious covering in Autumn and Winter 😂

All in all, it’s certainly not a piece of cake to write about other countries and cultures but, if they are open to let you in, you can learn stuff and do your best depicting them. It might not be perfect (and no work is actually perfect) but it would be a step to the right direction and might encourage more writers to do the same - instead of throwing some chitons in and calling it a day xD

If you have any other questions feel free to send me another message (dm or ask). You - or anyone else - REALLY WON’T BOTHER ME if you ask me many questions on my DMs or here.

[asklepiad-apollon]

do you think that non greek people should be allowed to follow hellenic polytheism? do you find it hard to take us seriously bc it's your culture? is it cultural appropriation? i don't mean to cause offence by asking i just saw some posts floating around and i'd like to know your opinion..just feeling kind of discouraged and awful about being in this religion but i'm trying my best to be respectful and learn and i just wanted to know what you thought

preface to these asks: I’m so sorry it took me so long to reply! I’ve been away from tumblr for a very long time! 

 In my personal opinion, and I don’t mean to be rude, I think that people who try to gatekeep the religion are not people that I would want to engage with or allow into my own personal communities. There’s is a difference between modern Greek culture and the surviving Greek Religion; around 98% of all Greeks are Greek Orthodox, and a lot of our traditions do follow Greek Orthodox cultures, even if you aren’t religious yourself. Not all of them, but many of them. I grew up around Greek kids and myself participating in Orthodox activities, Orthodox meals, Orthodox outfits, etc... (shoutout to all the fellow Greek kids who remember sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor of the church LOL) 

Additionally, Hellenic polytheism has never been very strictly about bloodlines and passing down religion through the lineage through blood. Unlike other religions that are closed to this day, Greek polytheistic religion was often spread across the lands (see- how they would literally preach and share about it to other areas, such as when they went to Egypt, both parties took inspiration about the Apollo god and started sharing religious traditions, which would later become permanent in both religions. Also see -  some shrines had open invitations to all passersbies that were travelling, regardless of social status or immigrant status)

Greeks, both modern and ancient, seem to be quite open about the religion, wanting the world to feel the “glory” of Greece and to have it spread. In my experience, people I’ve spoken to irl are more than happy to see people across the world practice. In fact, when I talked about American worshippers, I can sometimes see the light in people’s eyes because they feel like the Gods are not dead.

However, just a little note: I think it’s good to understand that the Gods in Hellenic Polytheism did come from Greece, and that Greece itself has a beautiful, big culture to learn about. To many of us in Greece who are practicing the religion, the Gods are not just toys to use; they’re a lifestyle to us. Greeks tend to be very reconstructionist in nature, in that they want the religion to be just like how it was back in the Ancient Days, lol. But it’s totally fine to be revivalist and encorporate the Gods in your practice in whatever way you like. 

I think the bottom line is just: be respectful! Respect Greek people, and scholars who have studied ancient greek culture, language, and religion. Don’t try and act like you can speak for all the Gods and don’t act like there is one right or wrong way to practice. But the respect should go both ways; they should respect you, too.

and unpopular opinion: people who say only racial greeks can even talk to the gods and that greece is the only pure land are often racist/ethnofascists/etc and fail to regard the complex racial situations in both modern and ancient greece :x

[womenfrommars]

Wait you got whole classes dedicated to other countries?? That’s great but yeah if ur wondering Americans usually do not get that. We sometimes have foreign language classes but it depends on the school and it’s often only counted as an elective and being in the class doesn’t mean that the teacher will actually do anything. And it’s just learning the language and absolutely nothing else, if you’re lucky enough to even have that offered. We don’t even learn about other North American countries. Honestly most schools don’t even teach about how the USA government works. Civics got taken out of most curriculums along with home economics. Even if you are able to get certain classes there’s not really anything keeping teachers from giving students inaccurate or biased information because “muh freedom and state’s rights” or something. Schools will pass students even if they didn’t learn anything because of some laws that got passed in like the 90s. It depends a lot on where in the US you live, if you went to public school or if your family could afford private school, etc. There’s also weird zoning laws that effect where you’re allowed to go to school, so if you live in a neighborhood with a “bad school” ur pretty much stuck there unless ur parents are able to sort it out. And then there’s big differences with rural vs urban vs suburban schools. Most states have their standards for education posted online but no one follows them and it’s practically incoherent anyway. American schools basically just teach simple math and English (those are the best taught subjects here, there’s other stuff though) and have students memorize whatever is on the standardized tests that week. Schools here tend to function more like combo daycares/prisons and less like places for learning, especially high schools. Like there’s the internet but independent study with no structure or direction doesn’t always have the best outcomes. I think that’s why young people are so insane here, but it’s whatever I guess… None of this applies to colleges theres different problems there. (Sorry for rambling in ur inbox ❤️ I couldn’t tell if that was a serious question or not)

No honey I was obliged to learn English, French, and German and in those language classes they also teach you a little bit about those countries' culture and history. It doesn't go the other way around. Nobody else in Europe really has mandatory Dutch classes because my country isn't relevant enough lol. I think everyone in Europe learns English as a second language and maybe also a third and/or fourth language depending on their geographical location and school system. My school also offered Latin and Ancient Greec but that was fully optional. Some schools also offer Mandarin Chinese or European Spanish but that's rare since they are not obliged to. I kind of assumed all Americans had to learn Mexican Spanish as well but apparantly that's just optional rip

We do learn how the country is governed. You kind of already learn by reading the news but it is also discussed in a social sciences class that focuses on socio-political issues. I don't know what that is even called in English but I had it for just one year and my teacher was a major clown lol. We also have a class that teaches you the basics of all major religions and we followed that up with a little bit of philosophy. We also followed another class for just one year that focused on teaching how to conduct scientific research. The religion class was very biased and my teacher kept simping for Islam even when acknowledging one of Muhammed's brides was underaged. We also learned about the Kaaba going by the Islamic story when that's not historically accurate. In general all my teachers for that class were Christian so we mostly focused on Christianity. It also brought out the edgy Reddit atheist in some of us.

In general everyone follows a different curriculum because there are different levels of education depending on how gifted you are. For the level I followed I had to go to high school for 6 years (counting "middle school" as well). After the age of 15 we had some more freedom in which subjects we wanted to keep following but it's very limited choice so not exactly pick and choose. My dumbass chose the two most difficult math classes rip

[themoonglitch]

2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 17-30! lmao you don't have to!! I know it's a lot, but thank you for whatever you can answer :D

I’m going to answer to AAALLLL of them but since it’ll be a very long post, answers are under the cut ;-)

2. do you prefer spending your holidays in your country or travel abroad?

Usually I prefer to stay at home for holidays (especially for Christmas) but I like to travel and visit other places in my country or outside. For example the last summer I’ve been to Austria and I fell in love with that country!

3. does your country have access to sea?

Oh yess! The Mediterranean Sea is awesome! I’ve never seen the Adriatic Sea tho but people say it’s awesome as well even tho there are a lot of seagrasses.

6. most hated song in your native language?

A popular song from some villains who stole and raped in the name of the Resistence, I can’t say more because, in Italy, if you aren’t one of them, you’re automatically flagged as “fascist” (it’s dumb I know but that’s the way it is).

8. do you get confused with other nationalities? if so, which ones and by whom?

Northen European people (that I love so much), for example, I can’t recognize people from Finlands, from Norwegian people. And Asiatic :(  I can recognize pretty well Japanese from Chinese but for example, I’m not good recognizing Korean people or other countries from Asia.

9. which of your neighbouring countries would you like to visit most/know best?

GERMANY!!!!!!! Germany! Germany!! oh and I’d like to know and visit more Austria.

11. favourite native writer/poet?

Dante Alighieri

12. what do you think about English translations of your favourite native prose/poem?

I’ve never read an English translation of La Divina Commedia so I can’t really say

15. a saying, joke, or hermetic meme that only people from your country will get?

“pioggia a catinelle” in English “it’s raining dogs and cats” but catinelle means buckets   

I’m sure there are more saying or jokes or whatever that only italians can get but I can’t think one :(

17. are you interested in your country’s history?

In Italy we study a lot of history about our country and other places. My fave parts are about Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire, I also like the Medieval history of Italy that has been full of many talented artists in many fields.

18. do you speak with a dialect of your native language?

Just a bit but I understand it pretty well

19. do you like your country’s flag and/or emblem? what about the national anthem?

I’m ok with our flag but I don’t like much our national anthem and just a few people know it all (we always sing the first 2 or 3 lines... very sad)

20. which sport is The Sport in your country?

Sadly it’s soccer/italian football :(

21. if you could send two things from your country into space, what would they be?

Probably 2 famous paintings because we had so many great painters and art is universal.

Probably something from Leonardo Da Vinci and from Caravaggio

22. what makes you proud about your country? what makes you ashamed?

I’m proud of my country’s history, we’re here from “always” xD and art! Painters, poets, writers, sculptors and many others made my country great and famous all over the world. Italy is very small but anyone knows its name.

I’m truly ashamed of nowadays italians. When I’m in other countries I always try to make myself unrecognizable as “italian”. Many italian people are rude, unpolite, ignorant and boors. They think only about soccer and do nothing to better themselves and our country. So I’m proud to be italian but I’m also ashamed to be somehow.

23. which alcoholic beverage is the favoured one in your country?

Vine!!! I love Italian vines and I prefer red ones over the whites but I can drink both according to what I’m eating or the occasion.

We also have some good beers but german beers are better xD

24. what other nation is joked about most often in your country?

France!!! They hate us and we hate them, that’s the way it is.

And U.S. xD #sorrynotsorry

25. would you like to come from another place, be born in another country?

Sometimes I’d like to but honestly, I’m happy to be part of this nation (mainly because of its history, art and culture)

26. does your nationality get portrayed in Hollywood/American media? what do you think about the portrayal?

I’m really disappointed by the way Hollywood/American media portray Italy and Italian people. We’re famous for immigrants and mafia but those people are only a small part of Italy/Italian culture and they’re all from the South of Italy.  In other parts of Italy, the Middle and the North, people are far different. Plus people who traveled to U.S. decades ago, today are really different.

27. favourite national celebrity?

Errrrr... uhhhh.... do we have celebrity? (I mean one we shouldn’t ashamed of)  I dunno... Leonardo Da Vinci does count? I’m not really involved in nowadays popular culture, sorry.

28. does your country have a lot of lakes, mountains, rivers? do you have favourites?

Oh yes!! We’re small but we have everything! I love Alps above everything else.

29. does your region/city have a beef with another place in your country?

We have xD 

I live in Genoa and in the past history, it was one of the Maritime Republics. At that time Genoa was called The Superb and we’re a bit stuck on it. As a maritime town people are a bit wary with strangers so when in summer tourists (mainly Milan and Turin) come to our beaches, we call them “foresti” (dialectical word for strangers) and start complaining about them taking our room on the shores. xD

30. do you have people of different nationalities in your family?

Nope! We’re all Italians :)

[gemsofgreece]

random but I find it a bit uncomfortable when we Greeks, especially someone like you who actually knows about history and is educated, calls Scopje "North Macedonia". Just bc they decided to call themselves like that and our dumb, unpatriotic politicians accepted it, I don't see why we should play along. Macedonia is Greek. Alexander the Great was Greek. Period.

If even we Greeks give in and start calling them like this, then we can't expect foreigners not to do so or not to eventually believe the false historical facts spread by that country. And eventually everyone, even Greeks, will believe that Macedonia or Alexander or whatever else were not Greek.

This thought worries me a lot. But since I live overseas myself, I do try educating foreigners about this.

sorry for the lil rant, but it's not the first time I see Greeks (even on tv!) do that and it is disappointing and saddening to me.

like Turks, Germans, French, British or ppl from any other country would never behave the way Greeks do on such a matter.

Really makes me wonder sometimes what it is that makes us Greeks so unpatriotic. it's somehow like being patriotic equals being a fascist for us, and obviously no one wants that so we just accept everyone else running over us, our history and our culture. (generally speaking, not only about that topic and it's definitely not towards you. just an observation of mine)

anyway again sorry for the rant.

I agree, many Greeks have that belief that any slight patriotic sentiment, even without hatred or any feeling of superiority, automatically makes you a fascist. It frustrates me too.

On the topic of our neighbour country, things are very complicated though. It’s not as easy as to say “There’s no other Macedonia - our politicians betrayed us - I try to educate as many people as I can”.

First of all, Skopje is not a correct term to use either. Skopje is their capital city and if I said “there are Pomak populations in Bulgaria, Northeastern Greece and Skopje”, then the average foreigner would misunderstand that sentence. We Greeks simply use that name for the country in lack of any better alternative and because it is not our job to find one for them.

Of course I dislike the name North Macedonia, however I think it is better in comparison to what was being used till the change. Just because we Greeks used the former official name FYROM, it doesn’t mean foreigners did too. It is very sad but it is the truth. In the absence of Greeks, everybody was calling the country Macedonia. The reason is a) the insane propaganda of the neighbours, b) the weirdness of an acronym used as a country’s name and c) the extremely long and complicated name when said in full. Trust me, everyone called them Macedonia and when a Greek showed up and screamed “it’s FYROM”, they were largely ignored or even ridiculed.

Let alone that FYROM is in truth an even more terrible name than North Macedonia. Remember what it means. Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia. What the hell does that mean? That it was formerly (yugo)slavic but now it is not? And that it was or still is THE Republic of Macedonia, the one!!! You get how this was way worse than North Macedonia? North Macedonia suggests that there is another Macedonia too, a South Macedonia. So the average foreigner who doesn’t know much about Greek or Slavic history may be intrigued by that North specification and look up what the “south” Macedonia is and find out about our region and its inhabitants and history. Also the differentiation between North Macedonia and Macedonia (ours, often called Historical or Aegean Macedonia) may intrigue new people to study the issues of the tensions between the two countries and have an educated opinion on it. This was much less probable to happen when foreigners were expected to call the country FYROM and then they were weirded out, so they would be like “oh just call it Macedonia for short” and they would do that without second thought, without knowing someone else condemns this name as appropriation of history and direct land claim.

Of course, the name North Macedonia is mostly inaccurate as only a small part of the far south of the country is part of the actual Ancient Macedonia. The ideal would be a NO Macedonia name but right now it was not realistic. They would not accept it and they were getting deeply under the influence of Turkey. Albania and Bulgaria are deeply influenced by Turkey, Greece felt it was suicide if she destroyed entirely the relations with North Macedonia and was literally surrounded by Turk friends from all sides. I am sure both sides absolutely loathe every single term in this agreement but politics sometimes work differently than our principles. I don’t like it but I have come to a place that I kind of understand. I hate it but it is better than the absolute nothing we had before.

What I can’t come to terms with is giving in for the nationality and language. That really seems as little other than a big fat betrayal. However, if I try hard to be objective about the situation, I believe neighbours are in a worse place than us in the longterm. Huge tensions often arise inside North Macedonia with like 1/3 of “”””””MaCEdoNIAns”””””” being Albanian and Bulgaria claiming the rest 2/3 are actually Bulgarians. And what is factually the truth, that the “Macedonian” language is basically a Bulgarian dialect just must create a situation of chaos within the country. I wouldn’t find it surprising if the nation feels unsafe. And when a nation feels unsafe, the best way to control it, distract it from the identity confusion and give it a purpose is to feed them with a shitload of propaganda, the kind they would LIKE to hear.

When Slavic populations were pushed north and out of Macedonia by the Greeks during the Balkan Wars and then they became part of what was called South Serbia and then part of Yugoslavia and then Yugoslavia collapsed and their population is a blend of Serb Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians and apparently there must be Greek Slav origins there too, it is no wonder the nation suffers from identity crisis and is susceptible to brainwashing and propaganda. I suppose they hate the guts of all of us surrounding them. So the claim that Macedonian is a separate ethnicity, unrelated to Greeks, and they are the sole descendants, a claim that was only made in 1935 for the first time, was a desperate way to establish an identity against Slavs and Greeks who surrounded them and with whom they felt entirely disconnected and hostile. I mean, at points in time, they were even denying any Slavic heritage. I think lately things aren’t as bad as they were. Of course, their government remains provocative towards Greece even after the agreement but this is no surprise after Greeks agreed on nationality and language. Currently they have tensions on ethnicity and culture mostly with Bulgarians and Albanians so our issue is somewhere in the back. Some of their youth now says they don’t actually believe they are descendants of Alexander the Great and that was an extreme measure to spite Greece. This was one of the terms of the Prespes agreement after all: that they would stop claiming Greek history and culture. Of course extreme and brainwashed nationalists are alive and well (everywhere) but things are better than they were some years ago IMO. I could be wrong though.

Anyway I get why things happened the way they happened. But of course butchering history is not the solution… but as you see they are not very close at solving anything. That was kinda my answer’s point, not sure it came across right. In the meantime, I have to use this geographic term to be understood and it is a little better than any widely understood alternative.

Context for foreigners: Alexander the Great died about 800 years before the first Slav stepped on Macedonia or any other Greek territory. Macedonians and all other Greeks technically stopped being considered as “ancient” half a millennium before the first Slavs showed up.

[alatismeni-theitsa]

This isn't about the Russian-Algerian-Pakistani anon, as it's obvious they are not this type of person. So, as a Greek studying in the US I see certain Greek Americans irl and online being like "feta, souvlaki, YEE-ROS, OPA!" and that's their whole personality. And, to be honest, it feels off-putting to someone who lives in Greece, and I don't feel like I have much in common with them. (part 1)

Many diaspora Greeks attend Greek festivals, speak the language and do whatever they can to stay in touch with Ελληνισμός with whatever means they have. But as you said, some do... less than 5% "Greek stuff" and instead of accepting that they have been nearly fully Americanized they insist they participate in the culture a lot. And that's where my uneasy feeling comes in.

The last anon who said something along the lines of "who are you to tell them what ethnicity they are, this is going to hurt them", I get that, but at the same time we need to be honest with the immigrants who stereotype their family's old country or they insist they have that connection while they are just a US American who eats pastitsio sometimes. (I am not stereotyping all Greek Americans, I specifically mention folks who Are Actually Like This)

And I DO get that ancestry is a complicated thing when you struggle to find yourself and strike a cultural balance because my mother is an immigrant to Greece (but she didn't pass me her culture much) and their parent was also an immigrant to their old country and... it's complicated. But people shouldn't be overly sensitive when they are told that they have lost touch with the culture of their parents or grandparents if this is true.

I know that if I was to travel to my mother's country I would be like a tourist, and as much as it hurts, it is the absolute truth and why would I get mad at someone if they helped me realize that? Their statement would be as honest as my shock when I travel to that country and see for myself that I have very little in common with the locals.

Sorry for the ton of messages but I wanted to rant a bit..

________________________ end of ask ________________________

I formatted your text a bit for easier reading, lmk if this bothers you and I'll change it.

I kinda relate to your experience up to a degree because some culture(s) has been lost through the recent generations of my family due to immigration, genocide, wars, and poverty, and I will never know it (although I know it's there and I have some elements), and I don't "belong" there unless I make the effort to reinsert myself in them. Like, the culture was there and I could have been TAUGHT but the relatives chose not to for their own reasons and ooof...

And the culture my old relatives knew is not the same culture as it's now in these places, so even if I knew it I probably wouldn't be able to integrate myself there without trying a lot. I don't even know the basics one grandpa's village and I doubt that if I were to appear there people would be like "ooh yeah that person is 'ours' " And I don't feel them like "my people" either

[alatismeni-theitsa]

Basically what happened was that someone put the sarcastic lore Olympus video another anon mentioned in a server im in and when I mentioned that I dont think that Lore Olympus is the best interpretation of H/P in part due to how non-greek the whole story was, the shit started. Excuses ranged from "Greek polytheism isn't exclusive to Greece" to " im not saying you're wrong but I know a lot of Greek polytheists" (I especially got mad at this one) to "it's an American story and the myths naturally reflect what Americans see in each other" to "many colonized places had Greek and Roman fetishized culture thrust upon them" and "American culture is deeply seeped in Greek myth and Greek polytheism is a thriving culture here" (send me the fuckin thesis) and then what really boiled me was their blatant shock at the fact that Zeus could *gasp* love Hera and be good to her. And then claimed they've read all sorts of myths for decades. Gems like "half of the heroes in Greek mythology aren't Hera's kids" like Ares and Hepheastos just don't exist ig. Then blaming me for getting angry and upset for all around being disrespectful to the gods. Thank fuck someone was on my side because I was just so fucking over it. God and all heavens above forbid you tell an American they got their history wrong and they're being disrespectful and hurtful in doing so. The worst part is that I tried to be polite through the whole thing. Tried. I dont know how I was coming off, but God fucking damn it i tried. Fucking hell, claiming that the need to study Greek mythos in your AP Us History class doesn't fucking mean it's baked into your culture. It made me so frustrated and now I can't even fathom talking to the people involved when they so staunchly defended something and claimed to be educated when it's obvious they weren't. I got an apology from a few people which I appreciated, but f u cking hell. Sorry for the long ask.

1) "Greek polytheism isn't exclusive to Greece" - Yeah SO? Does this make LO better? Does it negate the fact the planet knows only inaccurate/whatever Americanized movies about Greek mythology?

2) " im not saying you're wrong but I know a lot of Greek polytheists" SO??? You are allowed to have your own opinion! Plus, Greek polytheists can still be uneducated and follow practices they read in Percy Jackson and are used only to pop culture Americanized versions of how the gods are

3) "it's an American story and the myths naturally reflect what Americans see in each other" Nobody said those stories aren’t allowed to exist! The f-ing point is the Greco-Roman deities are treated like American property!“American story and the myths naturally reflect what Americans see in each other” it’s ALL THAT THE WORLD WATCHES. INCLUDING GREEKS.

Don’t they realize the US is an imperialist country or what? Those stories are everywhere and we are bored. If all you have to show is “Greek gods in US and Canada” x 1000 times and “The Greek gods used to show American social issues”x 1000 times just throw me into a bottomless pit already.

And then they have the nerve to say “but this is representation for you!” No, it isn't if you make Hera into a Karen and Zeus into Bill living in their mansion in Manhattan, showing no hint of my culture (OR Greek American culture) apart from some names and some basic powers! You might as well make them Egyptian gods and the script won’t change.

4) "many colonized places had Greek and Roman fetishized culture thrust upon them" How does that excuse the stupid stuff in LO?? What does a white woman in Australia have to do with how culture was forced to change in colonized cultures??

Why should Greeks see the disrespect of their figures because other countries promoting a *fetishized* image of their ancient culture to other countries they colonized? Why is the US continue to glorify that *fetishized* (as this person said) standard?

Plus, it’s not like Indigenous Americans or Africans from formerly colonized countries consider Zeus part of their culture. Yes, the philosophy of West European nations and certain standards were unfortunately forced upon them but they know the gods are not theirs! (As opposed to many formerly not colonized people in the US)

And if you speak with people from countries on this side of Atlantic which were colonized by France or England you will see they don't deem this mythology theirs! In most of these countries, the citizens merely know the basic stuff about Greek mythology. All they know comes from - you guessed it - American shows about Greek mythology!    

5) "American culture is deeply seeped in Greek myth and Greek polytheism is a thriving culture here" Okay just... what? 😂😂😂😂😂 I swear this fetishized version they accuse colonizers of spreading, they have it themselves and don't recognize it. It’s apparent, as they often see Greek mythology as “a thing of the White man” and want to “subvert” it to send a message. Meanwhile have they thought about how Greeks feel about this? Naaaah fuck dem Greeks. Who cares, it’s not like their culture is Greek any more, right? Who knows what language they speak nowadays these exotic people...

And “Greek polytheism is a thriving culture here”?? North America has hundreds of millions of people. The 500 internet friends you have who are in Greek polytheism is not even a fraction of that. 

“The need to study Greek mythos in your AP Us History class doesn't fucking mean it's baked into your culture.” I agree with your statement. Moreover, guess who fought to keep the heritage alive for thousands of years? Greeks. Copying manuscripts, analyzing ancient philosophy, protecting heritage monuments, songs, religious customs, etc. Do they think Greeks sat on their asses for a blank 2000 yrs??

Final thoughts:

Greek mythology aside, people who claim to know something when they are ignorant and they don’t offer to search for things they don't know, are immature and cause harm to whoever tries to argue with them. It’s good you got an apology from some, I am happy when people want to research something they don't know! 

But that server in general... doesn't seem very inclusive (ironically). And if you weren't a Greek (aka not perceived as oppressed in N. America xD) they would take you more seriously and they wouldn’t say “but I have other Mixed Brazilian friends who don't complain about the cultural misrepresentation!” I find it natural if you don't want to engage with them any more :/ See what is best for you 💙