#and then he needs to realise that efnisien was also a victim-turned-abuser

[not-poignant]

Thanks for answering my ask about Arden’s POV! Makes total sense. Totally different style question, but in your opinion will Gwyn and Ef be able to come together again in the far future and have a relationship of some sort with heavy boundaries, or will it be better for them to not ever speak again? I could see it both ways so I am curious. Anyway thanks for writing! FFS has become a comfort fic for me as a “bad” ocd haver…

Hi hi

Yes! Actually that's very much what I imagine (that they do meet up again in the future). The reason Efnisien cut Gwyn off now was, in many ways, so that they could have some kind of connection in the future.

If things continued as they were now they would have never learned how to be healthy together. For a start, Gwyn had zero accountability for his own actions, because anything toxic he did, he threw under the 'you started it' bus. Which is not useful to, well, anyone. Even Gwyn. Gwyn's only going to learn that accountability with better therapy, and some time to actually process his childhood and what he experienced.

Likewise, Efnisien needs to learn how to respect himself around folks like Gwyn, and how to stand up for himself and his boundaries healthily. Gwyn violated his boundaries literally every single visit they ever had, and even the times Efnisien did weakly try to stand up for himself, Gwyn consistently and repeatedly ignored him. It's safe to say that was happening for years before this story started. So Efnisien certainly needs to learn to a) stand up for himself more firmly around Gwyn and b) walk away with a strong 'if you keep treating me like this you do not get my presence, period' if Gwyn ignores him.

I do think they can get there with time (a significant amount of time, like a decade or two). I think especially once Efnisien doesn't need Gwyn in any shape or form, and Gwyn has sort of learned some perspective on how he wants to treat people in general, including people that treated him badly (i.e. if he wants to go down the path of Lludd, which he's tentatively done already (Gwyn is, actually, extremely violent, and attempted to murder Efnisien, and did not stop himself - but was stopped by Augus), or if he actually wants to develop a personal ethical code, which Efnisien is lightyears ahead of vs. him - largely because of choices Efnisien was forced to make, and Hillview).

Honestly I like to imagine that one day they do meet, and Efnisien has pet dogs (or a pet dog) of his own, and as soon as Gwyn looks at them like 'oh god what are you doing to them' Efnisien's like 'right, see ya!' because he's just not going to put up with that anymore after the years and years and years of hard work he's done on himself. And then at their second meeting, Gwyn is much better lmao, and he actually gets to know Efnisien as a person, and they start figuring out a new path forward together. :)

[not-poignant]

Hey Pia, enjoyed the latest FFS chapter. Was a bit confused though, as to why Dr Gary didn't bring up trying to repair or heal Gwyn and Ef's relationship with a mediator or therapist as an option. Maybe it wouldn't work out, maybe Gwyn would refuse, but seems like both of them have demonstrated concern for the other's well-being and might benefit from a trained expert helping them find ways to stop hurting each other. Breaking contact as the only fix-it feels sad.

Ooo, this is a good thing to talk about.

The tl;dr answer is: Because Dr Gary has never actually felt that to be a constructive or a helpful idea.

His general feeling is that he wants to see Efnisien less enmeshed and codependent with his cousin and his abuse victim, and he’s never thought that mediation between an abuser and their victim while both are still processing massive issues towards their families (and each other) was going to be the best option. Especially given that Efnisien was in love with Gwyn. It’s rare that mediation between a non-consensual incestuous relationship between an abuser and their victim after the victim has tried to beat the abuser to death is going to be like...the first option that someone will go for.

In Dr Gary’s view, he would consider mediation after Efnisien has spent some time away from Gwyn, and they can both come back together as independent equals.

I also don’t think Gwyn would be interested in it. And Augus would have a very hard line against it, like ‘NO YOU’RE NEVER DOING THAT, IT’S ONCE A MONTH OR NOTHING AT ALL’ - it’s not like Gwyn has ever shown an inclination to wanting to see Efnisien more or wanting to get closer to him - even this visit, Gwyn only expressed more token concern because he didn’t want Efnisien to go out and rape people - that’s it. I’m sure once he feels Efnisien is ‘neutered’ again he’ll go back to talking about his own life and vanishing. Honestly, I don’t believe Gwyn is genuinely concerned about Efnisien. His concern to me feels rote and token, a sort of ‘well I didn’t know it was still hard for you sometimes. But that’s no excuse to rape your boyfriend. Oh well. See ya.’

But anyway, beyond Gwyn and his life, it’s mostly that Dr Gary doesn’t really believe in going that direction. I’m sure Efnisien suggested it a ton when he was in Hillview and missing Gwyn like crazy, and I’m sure Dr Gary had about 2,000 ways to be like ‘actually, right now, Gwyn needs time away from what you’ve done to him, and you need time away from the person who tried to beat you to death and was only stopped because he was afraid of the law vs. afraid of killing you.’

Breaking contact as the only fix-it feels sad. 

I mean, in some ways it is, but largely if you view it through the lens of thinking they were ever going to be really good or healthy for each other beyond standalone moments or actions. (Which is why it’s going to be sad for Efnisien, when he realises he does need to step away).

I don’t think that Efnisien and Gwyn will never contact each other again, but I do think this fic will end on them separating and being aware that they need time - years really - apart to mature as people. And I don’t think it’s a ‘fix-it’ - I think it’s the best option for two people who can be extremely damaging to each other, and are taking turns.

I do think mediation could actually help Gwyn and Efnisien split more amicably, but it would still be with a view towards splitting (there are couples who go to couples counselling to make their divorce more amicable, it’s not like therapists only exist to keep two people who don’t want to be around each other; together).

But Efnisien is extremely protective of his sessions with Dr Gary these days, I don’t think he’d want Gwyn to meet Dr Gary, and I don’t think Dr Gary would think it was fair on Gwyn to conduct mediation without Gwyn’s therapist there, and I’m not sure Gwyn’s therapist would think it was a good idea either, given how much Gwyn still has to work through re: feelings towards Efnisien and his family, and how unsafe it would be for him to work through those feelings while Efnisien was in the room. (Both unsafe for Efnisien, and to a lesser degree, unsafe for himself).

To me it doesn’t feel sad, because I know Efnisien will be far happier with Gwyn out of his life instead of in it, and vice versa. Like I know Efnisien will be sad, but I think the way his life will grow when he steps away from his family will turn that sadness into a gift.

I know some people just want Gwyn and Efnisien to get along, and that’s definitely a great reason to write some fanfic about them to give them that ‘fix-it’ if you believe it could work. I don’t, so I can’t and don’t want to write it. To me, it could never be an option as a fix-it, it would just be a toxic choice that would hurt them both. Even if they had mediation, I think the conclusion they would both come to is just a more polite and compassionate version of ‘let’s not see each for like five years and then see what happens.’ Sometimes the kindest thing you can do for someone you love, is walk away and/or let them go. Gwyn doesn’t really love Efnisien, but Efnisien loves Gwyn, and I think he’s coming to see that...for both of their sake’s, he needs to really consider what either of them are getting out of those visits.