#because he never thought efnisien would just be like

[not-poignant]

Daily excerpt from today's writing, chapter 13 of Constellations:

‘What’s better here, do you think? Telling Gwyn that you want to try, but that you might be causing yourself pain and you’d appreciate him being sensitive about it if you decide not to eat with him again for a while? Or not telling Gwyn at all, and keeping the potential outcome a secret?’ ‘I don’t know,’ Efnisien said. ‘So far it’s the latter, because I’m not eating around him, and my stomach still plays up. It’s so annoying. Like, I get that I have adhesions and there’s nothing surgeons can do without causing more adhesions, but after all this time…’ He heard himself and sighed heavily, putting his head in his hands. ‘I hate that it all comes back to her. It always goes back to her. And before you talk about my flawed thinking or whatever, just… Just don’t.’ ‘I wasn’t going to do that,’ Mika said. ‘No banter right now, just real talk.’ ‘You’re too old to say “real talk.”’ ‘I know you’re really upset when you come at my age,’ Mika said primly, before softening again. ‘Efnisien, this does come back to her. She tried to kill you. She did so in an extremely agonising way, that has lasting, permanent effects. The surgeons can’t cure the lingering pain and other digestive issues that you have, and you can’t ever truly escape the reminder that she never stopped victimising you. Even right at the end. That’s hard, Efnisien.’ ‘That’s probably how Gwyn feels about the scars I gave him.’ ‘Maybe, maybe not,’ Mika said. ‘This isn’t about what you did to Gwyn right now.’ ‘I know,’ Efnisien said. He was deflecting. He was trying not to “feel his pain” or whatever fucking shit he was doing. Avoidance was his greatest skill, and it was so annoying that everyone wanted him to unpack it all the time.

Except they didn’t. Mika would be fine with it if Efnisien never ate around Gwyn. Gwyn would keep seeing him. Arden wasn’t going to pressure him. They’d all support him not trying to push himself on this. Efnisien dropped a hand to his belly, and thought about Arden calling it a tummy when it was sore. This was all just…fragile.

[suis0u]

It might be very perosnal to ask this and rude perhaps but why do like this falling falling stars ff? I have tried to read it because of you and found it sorta disturbing.

Uff, okay. I have this ask for few days already and.. try to answer it. I can understand that it’s maybe not a easy story to read for some people, because of the topics. There is a lot of heavy stuff. But it also is because of some of those topics, that I like to read it. It connects with some of my own problems/disorders and experiences and makes it easy for me to connect with the characters and enjoy the whole hurt/comfort content I always love to read by @not-poignant. And when I can identify myself with characters in some way, I always do enjoy stories so much more. Even when the topics are difficult, heavy or somehow disturbing for some people. I don’t want to say it’s more comfortable for me to read, but it some way it just is.. and I do enjoy it more than some fluffy story where everything is alright, everyones happy and having a good time etc. Because that’s just.. not my thing. I’m not that kind of person to believe in happiness all around. I don’t have that kind of mindset even when I do enjoy happy ends and all of that. 

With FFS especially.. and now this will be far more personal. I don’t now how far you’ve read... but Efnisien is a character I easily could connect to as I started reading. Not because of the things he has done and that happend to him, but more in the way he acts around other people, because of some of his disorders and how he just is. I do have a eating disorder myself, even when it’s different. I do know how it is to have intrusive thoughts, even when mine are not about hurting other people or animals and more on the hurting myself-side. He is also asexual with no experiences in sex, like myself. He reacts strongly to little touches/gestures, thinks too much and obessivily and that are all points I can completely understand myself because I know it from myself in some ways. Even small things like what he’s doing with his hands in difficult or more intense conversations or the way he reacts and all, I can empathy because I’m not that different. I’m just not that rude even when I was told I totally can be a little bitch from time to time.I tend to be snippy and unfriendly sometimes, when I’m uncomfortable..  and also have no filter most times when I get asked stuff and answer it with more personal information as I will be comfortable with later when I have time to think about everything again and again and again. Another slight similarity.  With Arden it is a bit different. I do know what it’s like to be the victim of sexuel harrassment and assault ( and I don’t hate Efnisien because he has done it in the past) and it was hard for me to imagine what was done to him in his past but my own experiences helped me to get a rough ‘feeling’  and even when that made me uncomfortable while reading it helped me the same time to see how Arden managed to become who he is now. Even with all that stuff in his past. I don’t know if that makes sense. Arden is also a person I find very fascinating in all the things he does and with all the passion and energy he has, how open minded he is. He still has his flaws, but even those..I love to read about him.  Especially how he handle other people, Efnisien especially but still so tiny details.. like he trained his dog with the thoughts in mind, that there are people who are afraid of dogs and such. I live in a big city with a lot of dogs and I can tell you - with my own very anxious dog - it’s not funny how many aggressive and untrained dogs are walking around here without a leash.. and who don’t really listen to their owners. Or the owners themselves are just assholes and doing nothing while their dogs trying to harassing my dog etc.. Arden is for me like a warm sunshine in winter, a person who can makes you feel comfortable and kind of.. home and save in their presence... and I know that may sound sappy.  I also like the power dynamic alot between him and Efnsien and the BDSM part that was shown so far. I’m not part of BDSM community, even when I’m very curious about it because I like the concept behind some of it a lot and it’s appealing. It’s also another reason besides many why I love to read story by not-poignant. But especially what i’ve read in FFS so far I like a lot.  When I would be on the receiving end of Arden proposing that kind of relationship to me like he talked about in chapter 18, I would defintely say yes after I freaked out about it internally. Because tbh, I was never much interested in relationships yet, but that just sounds perfect for me so far, ha.  I’m sure I already wrote more than necessary and I’m not sure if this will help you to understand why I love that story. But you don’t find so many good written stories where a previous ‘bad person’ get the chance to reform himself, to get help and be able to live a better life and overcome his own past. Especially when that ‘bad person’ is actually a victim too, through the influences of others. It may be just my opinion and I know not everybody sees it that way, but I don’t believe that people are born bad or evil. Everyone have the potentiel to be bad, evil or whatever. We’re humans after all. But I think what's actually the reason to let a person tip to the ‘bad’ or ‘good’ side (or stay in the gray middle) are all the influences around us: Family, society, school, the medien.. all of that stuff. And how yourself understand it, handle it and process all that influence and information may be also a question of intelligence (and human intellect but that also can be influenced) but mostly is a question of how you were raised. And I think there are people who done bad things, yes and still deserve a second chance. Not everyone, but those who want to be better and change themselves. Simlar like what Arden said himself to Efnisien.  Okay, I will stop now because I really have written too much already (and I’m acually on work-time and should do what I’m supposed to do.) (I also need to add, as another reason why I love that story - it’s just so enjoyable to read when you know/noticed while reading that the author has done their research and know what their writing about, especially when the topics are diffcult like traumas or disorders and yes, even bdsm.) 

[not-poignant]

awh i had been wondering to ask if it would ever come up in utr but the last excerpt was exactly that! we usually see alpha - omega comfort but i rarely have read omegas comforting each other….theres just something about it that seems to give Extra Comfort! at first i thought maybe a scene with nate but he seems less sociable than flitmouse, who i thought might have been too jaded. and ef wasnt in the omega category until recently. so im happy to see it happening after all! alois overcoming his own reservations/issues because his nurturing/protective side is stronger is very sweet also. btw is flitmouse much shorter than efnisien? i remembered you once mentioning ef being taller than faber and even caleb. i know this is a silly question but who is the shortest character in the universe? 😂 im short just looking for comrades. ok ok cant wait for the chapter! thank u! xx

Hi anon!

We have multiple chapters of omega + omega comfort coming, in different ways, but chapters 103 and 105 deliver actual like... physical comfort and snuggling. I actually never thought I'd be able to write this when I first started Underline the Black! Efnisien was in such a hostile place re: omegas, and Gary was so incredibly closed to the idea of letting anyone with that much hatred anywhere near the omegas at Hillview.

But things really have changed so much for Efnisien, and so now I'm getting to write stuff that I honestly said was probably not possible in the very beginning!

Flitmouse is quite a bit shorter than Efnisien!

I have no idea who the shortest character in the universe is though, because I don't really do specific/exact heights outside of like 'Gary is taller than Efnisien, omegas are shorter than alphas' etc. The dyscalculia and my issues around numbers make those sorts of specific details really elusive to me, and even if I make something up, I never remember them so I contradict them constantly. So instead we get 'alphas taller than omegas, Efnisien tall because ardolphogen, Flitmouse shorter than alphas' etc.

Lucien's pretty petite though! And you definitely have a lot of short comrades among the omegas! :D

[not-poignant]

Daily excerpt from Underline the Black 71:

‘They told me it was normal,’ Efnisien said, sounding tired. ‘They told me it was all normal. Meanwhile fucking Temsen’s pheromones are nuts because of regular omega rehabilitation facilities.’ ‘Did you ever realise it wasn’t normal?’ Gary said. ‘There’s two of me,’ Efnisien said. ‘I had a phone. I watched stuff. I read stuff. Even with trying to avoid certain things, I could kind of see that like, the world was…different. And then also like, sometimes there were omegas who came over through friends of the family, who seemed okay. Not dead from blood loss anyway. And I knew I had to be hidden away. I couldn’t leave. So there was the me who…I guess kind of distantly understood something was weird. But I couldn’t look at it or think about it too hard.’ Gary nodded. The dissonance would have been fracturing. ‘And then there was the other me who just thought it was all normal.’ Efnisien said. He pulled out of Gary’s arms and walked further down the trail, away from Hillview, staring fixedly towards whatever drew him forwards. Gary followed. ‘And in a way it was all normal. Metal tables were normal. What she did was normal. The protein shakes were normal. The surgeries were normal. Fighting with Gwyn and being mounted by him was the fucking worse, but it was normal. And there’s a kind of…safety in that, isn’t there?’ He rubbed at his own arms, hugging himself as they kept walking. Gary looked over his shoulder and Hillview was well and truly out of sight, and Efnisien didn’t seem to care. Overhead, a grey currawong squeaked its strange call out into the world. ‘Never going anywhere was normal,’ Efnisien said, stopping.

[not-poignant]

hi! this is “better aspects” anon!! i’ve given your reply a lot of thought, because i think i just really appreciated how academic efnisien was and how he continued to cultivate his knowledge in constellations and thought that him going out of his way to do that was an admirable aspect that i thought even a person like crielle could respect, and wanted to know if that was a factor in her continuing to raise him because that would have been a relatively “better” factor than the other reasons she continued to raise him for (like seeing a murderer in him i guess), though i guess she could’ve seen that and thought of ways he could use it to be a murderer. (and i won’t even defend mentioning “beauty” there because there is no defense i might have just been running my mouth/hands?)

anyway, your reply was food for thought for days for me. and it really challenged how i thought about things, and i found out how much i’ve been ‘tiering’ the world in unfair ways unconsciously, and i hope awareness will be the first step in changing that. so thank you!! and since this is an ask box i might as well ask: have you ever leaned toward an educational role? i think not only your reply has explained an alternative way of thinking clearly but in your fics too. and i wonder if you’d ever write a non-fic about kink one day? i really respect and appreciate all your work even more so now!

Hi hi anon!

A big thing here is just that Crielle doesn't really recognise Efnisien as a fully three-dimensional human being and she doesn't really want him to be one anyway, and she gets annoyed when he shows a capacity for that.

If he's not existing for her, doing things for her, slaving away for her, worshipping her, anticipating her needs, and sublimating his entire existence for her, suffering for her, begging for her mercy and love, and crying for her, she's not interested.

When Efnisien cultivated his knowledge outside of Crielle and not for Crielle, he was punished for it. When he showed an interest in things that had nothing to do with her, he was punished for it. If he showed any sign of independent thought that she couldn't use, find useful, find entertaining (like him tormenting Gwyn, or learning to play piano), then he was punished for it.

In fact Crielle is the one who canonically tells Efnisien to only do accounting at university, so that he flies under the radar so he could more successfully be a criminal and/or serial killer. She literally squashes his academic talent and curiosity, to a point where he has to get straight A's but not dream of doing anything that's not directly connected to her. As a result, he doesn't know what his dreams are by the time he sees Dr Gary, because he's not allowed to have any to belong to him and he's still literally learning how to be a person, because Crielle didn't want him to be a person.

It's often hard for people to understand Crielle if you've never (knowingly) met anyone like her. But people who see other people as objects, dolls, and empty spaces to fill with their own desires exist, and they do not admire independence, free will, or a person making choices beyond their control.

Crielle loved Efnisien most when he was trying to perfectly do everything she wanted automatically, and she loved him least when he was trying to be a person with his own personality.

You and me, anon, we get to appreciate the things about him that Crielle tried to destroy, or found tedious or annoying, or found a good reason to punish or torture him over. We get to cheer him on in therapy when he realises he likes working for an anthropologist, and when he researches different subjects on his own, and when he finally realises he can leave a job he doesn't like.

Efnisien's profound learned helplessness comes from someone with no capacity to appreciate Efnisien when he wasn't being a two-dimensional sycophant, and so we get to cheer on every moment he finds things out for himself, or asks questions, or learns more about the world. In a way, we get to go on that journey with him, and be proud of him at the same time that Dr Gary is, or smile at him at the same time that Arden does, or feel vindicated when Gwyn finally notices that Efnisien isn't just what Crielle turned him into.

Crielle never respected Efnisien in general. She only respected him in moments, and only when he was most like her, and most reflecting her desires for him. But an adult who sexually molests a child does not respect that child. She never believed in his rights or his right to personhood.

There's nothing Efnisien could have done to win that, even if he did do everything perfectly, unless he like spectacularly killed 50 people or something, and then she'd never speak to him again to protect herself, and probably admire him from afar, an imprisoned statue that she'd probably try and send little coded love letters too, which was probably part of her twisted fantasy in the first place.

Abandonment was high on the cards for Efnisien whether he got everything right, or tried to be a person and therefore got everything wrong. This is something Dr Gary knows. And it's something Efnisien will take a long time to realise for himself, because it will hurt him so much when he does. There was never an outcome where they could have been happy together, because she didn't want it.

Anyway the tl;dr is that sadly Crielle had some major issues seeing people as people and felt so entitled to Efnisien that any qualities or traits he possessed that weren't directly in service to her (with her approval) all went in the 'nope do not approve' list.

have you ever leaned toward an educational role?

This is so sweet of you anon. I sadly think I wouldn't be a great teacher because I get impatient and because I can really struggle to articulate my thoughts sometimes outside of stories. I think that's why I have to write these very long and rambling responses, and I don't think most teachers need this many words to say 'Crielle's a psychopath' sdlkfjas :D

In all seriousness, I really like sharing things through my writing. It frees me from having to get everything 'right' because it's fiction, and it allows people to engage with it on any level they want to. I'm really lucky that I can share some of my research and thoughts, and also some of a character's thoughts (I don't agree with the way all my characters think and in all the things they believe), and that a reader can sort of...I guess pick up what they need at the time?

As for kink, there are far fare better people suited to that! I'm not saying that to be modest, but like, a rope friend of mine has literally put thousands of hours just into studying and learning about kinbaku and semenawa (shibari/rope) and even she doesn't feel qualified to teach it. There's so much around physical safety and also communicating compassionately and with openness that I think would be really difficult. It's hard to capture a lot of that in books (and maybe secretly I think it's more fun to not have to be focused on safety in my writing in the same way lol)

Plus it gets to be entertaining and fun and sometimes relaxing or painful or cathartic and I guess that's something I really...feel strongly about? That's important to me in a different kind of way I think?

Honestly you're awesome for just giving a different perspective a try, I really struggle to do that, it's hard to sometimes be like 'oh this thing I used to think / currently think is maybe not how I always want to keep thinking about it.' Just the other day I realised something I thought about owning cats was actually incorrect and it was like 'oh whoops' lol. But it's the only way we keep growing. And it's cool that you're doing it!

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia,

Behind-the-scenes-fic-ask, number 21 and falling falling stars please ❤️

21. What is something you didn't expect people to notice or gravitate towards in this fic?

Ooooo, okay, actually quite a few things!

So the biggest one is that I just never expected to have Dr Gary be anything more than an extremely minor character that Efnisien mostly reflected on. I never planned to write whole sessions, and the first one was only a section of a chapter rather than a whole chapter, because I thought readers would hate it.

I actually really hate reading a lot of fictional therapy sessions, especially when that's not the focus of the fic. Most fictional therapy sessions read like 'therapist is narrating pop psychology and telling this character everything they want to hear and they're subbing in for a kind parental figure' at best.

There are exceptions to that, but for the most part, I find that boring - it feels like a kind of writing that is not quite lazy, but a bit 'there are other more interesting ways to share this.' Therapists don't feel like real people in those circumstances, with their own motives, thoughts, intentions and drives. They feel like an extended part of the character's brain, or they feel like an empty function.

But Dr Gary was like, was a hit. I was getting a lot of asks about him, a lot of interest about him in the comments, and in the first few chapters, me and my beta actually kind of shipped him and Efnisien together before he met Arden (that's how we ended up with Underline the Black lol).

So yeah, that's the biggest one!!! And that one is a pretty big one. :D

Otherwise, I was also surprised by (but maybe shouldn't have been) how many Kadek/Efnisien shippers there are and Kadek/Efnisien/Arden shippers. I was like...hmm...how can I put this - Kadek has darker brown skin, and in those cases some readers don't really go for that chemistry. He's also 20~ years older than Efnisien, though he doesn't act like it, lol. Like, I personally shipped them even though I wasn't going to write them into the main story, but I was very reserved/aware that people might not want that. Especially with how confrontational and sometimes even mean Kadek can be.

Honestly that was like, probably the nicest surprise. It wasn't that I expected people to be awful, often I try and go in with fairly open expectations, it was more like I was prepared for people to not feel/see what I was feeling/seeing about a character. And I was okay with that, because he's a side character. But we got way, way more scenes with Kadek because of how people responded to him.

This story really couldn't have been what it became without the readers! The best part about not planning a story is I can follow the kind of momentum of readers. I don't believe in caving to fanservicey stuff, but I do believe in 'oh you're open to this? I can give you more of this!' or 'oh you like him!!! Yay!! I do too! Let's experiment with a whole therapy session chapter and see how y'all feel about it.'

:D That's my favourite part of writing, honestly. I actually kind of feel bad for the people who don't read fics as they go like this, and just read it all when it's completed at the end. Because they miss this kind of alive creation of this ongoing story, and they miss being a part of it. And obviously they also miss the agony of waiting for chapters, but as someone who reads WIPs myself, idk there's something very cool about seeing something come to life - especially like, if say early on you are like 'I love this character so much' and then a bunch of other people say it, and then the author is like 'well this character can make the story stronger so good news everyone, I'm putting him in more because you all love him so much.'

That's... like... *chef's kiss*

~

From this meme!

[not-poignant]

hihi pia! youve said before that you like to leave a lot of the visuals up to the readers imagination with what you write, but i thought to ask can you explain maybe the layour of garys cottage? 😭😭 im so bad with stuff like orientation and space, and i struggle so much sometimes when i read and think ok, now where is that door they came from and where is that chair next to the table and that window. rereading the teacup incident & i just really cant make it work. its fine if not. ily!

Anon, very unfortunately, I am not an architect, and I just spent 30 minutes trying to draw this out which has highlighted to me that I know what the layout is but my job is actually writing and not...drawing the layouts of homes. (If only)

You can always just look up cosy cottages and then use that, anon!

The job of a reader (imho) isn't to imagine things exactly as they are, but go from the details they've been given and often relate that back to what they already know. Sometimes that might mean looking something up if it's genuinely something you've never seen before (karri trees), or relating them back to a tall tree you're familiar with (sequoias). In fact no reader imagines the same thing when they're reading. I could spend 1000 words describing a red cabinet and people will imagine 1000 slightly different variations anyway. Everyone has a different idea of 'red' and a different idea of 'wood' and a different idea of 'cabinet' and even if I lock down into the nitty gritty, if we're not living in the same country, our power sockets look different, our heating and cooling systems (and accommodations for them) are different, the fabrics we use are different (unless we all go to IKEA), the smells of the home are all slightly different.

I think even if I did draw it out successfully in two hours (which is not time I really have spare at the moment :/ I wish I did because I think it could be fun except that I don't want to download architecture software to make an actual blueprint of an entire cottage that's in scale but also shows exactly where the furniture will go which includes interior design as well x.x - and I do know exactly how it's laid out mentally, so I know I could make it work. (And I still might, maybe, but probably not while I have a 15 week old puppy I'm sorry anon D: ) But yeah doing it on paper has proven to me that actually writing out the location of like 50 different things means the blueprint becomes too small and messy to still tell what's going on. I wrote 'table and chairs' over the table and chairs and now you can no longer see the table and chairs in my sketch which is not useful!

There's a difference between the layout of a house and the layout of the objects and furniture in a house. I may have worked for an architecture firm, but I am not a house designer. *cries*

But! All you really need to know is that Gary can't see the kitchen cabinets from where he sits on the couch. Which means if someone crouches down and opens the cabinets, he can't see them either. There are a lot of houses that have layouts like this, especially houses that have a counter not just up against the wall, but in the middle of the kitchen.

For example in this image, if a couch was in front of the kitchen counter that's free-standing, and a person was sitting on the couch and looked at the free-standing kitchen counter, they would not be able to see the kitchen cabinets from the free standing kitchen counter, or what's in them. They can only see the counter. If the lounge was lower than the kitchen, they'd see even less.

In this image, if the couch was where the stairs are, you'd not be able to see what Efnisien was doing in the kitchen at all until he stoop and held up the teacup. If he kept the teacup low in his hands, you'd not be able to see it at all.

Because Gary's cottage is small, but open plan, the lounge has a view to the kitchen, but not directly into the kitchen.

There's lots of houses that feature this kind of architecture, so if you really want to go down that rabbit hole, you can just search different kitchens in cottages until you see one where if you sit on the couch, you can't see someone crouched in front of the kitchen cabinets.

Gary's free-standing kitchen counter is also multi-level like this is multi-level:

So someone could stand there and make a coffee and a person sitting on the couch wouldn't be able to see what they were doing. Ornaments and vases and notes etc. can go on the raised bit, and kitchen stuff can happen on the lower bit.

Ah marvel at my use of technical terms *cries again*

Anyway! I hope that helps somewhat. I'm mad that I can't draw this layout for you because I do wish I could just...mentally take people on a tour through this cottage. And it would be great to do that. But I am looking at the saddest most pathetic sketch in my sketchpad right now, and I used to work as an artist, but I'm just very very very very bad at this kind of technical drawing.

But maybe the teacup scene will make a little more sense now :)

[not-poignant]

Hey hey! I’m not sure if this has been asked yet, but how do female alphas work in Underline the Rainbow? <3

Hi anon!

So Crielle exists, and she's a woman peak alpha w- a uterus, so we'll start with her. :D

This is what's said about her and alphas in general who have uteruses in the story (chapter 55 - Research):

It had been hard for Crielle to get pregnant. Efnisien was sure one of the reasons Fenwy Laboratories existed - back when it was a small, boutique lab - was to create synthetic larentin to help alphas and peak alphas with uteruses conceive and carry their child to viability. Alphas almost never carried a child for the full forty weeks, and miscarriages and premature birth were incredibly common. Peak alphas with uteruses were considered barren by default and couldn't get pregnant and carry to viability without heavy synthetic hormone supplementation. They often needed to start hormone therapy two or three years before trying to conceive.  Efnisien respected Crielle's work in the field, she was a pioneer and built upon her grandmother's nascent science. He supposed Crielle thought that doing the opposite - giving synthetic ardolphogen to an omega to see what happened - would have seemed incredibly normal to her.  Gwyn was Crielle's miracle baby, because she'd miscarried at least three times, because she carried him to 39 weeks, which was such a rarity that she'd volunteered herself as a case study in a scientific paper before she withdrew her consent from the project and wrote the paper herself. After all, it was her laboratory, her chemicals, and she was the subject, and Gwyn was healthy. A perfect peak alpha. 

--

Beyond struggling to give birth, everything else is the same. Like we know Crielle could do incredibly effective directives, she could spike her pheromones, she could use alpha persuasion, everyone in the house (including her alpha husband Lludd) respected her.

Women alphas + alphas with uteruses are the same!

In terms of physical characteristics it'd be the same as alphas who are men - they are generally taller and stronger, and they have very charismatic / compelling personalities.

We also know that Gary's mother is an alpha, and that she worked in animal rehabilitation, so aside from being strong, they can also be compassionate and empathetic, just like guys can be.

Idk if you're looking for anything else specific! They 'work' like alphas, their hormones just make it harder for them to bear children to full-term.

[not-poignant]

I'm not sure if you've answered this before, but I've read a lot of your work, and Efnisien has kind of become a favorite of mine and seeing how he's developed in AUs like FFS and UtB have you ever thought about how he might have developed had he not died in Game Theory?

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

Hi hi anon!

I've answered this before but probably quite a while ago, while writing Falling Falling Stars in particular.

Tbh, Efnisien would have developed in Fae Tales by becoming more evil, and more depraved, and more awful. He was and remains to me a completely irredeemable character who was so cruel even Crielle thought it was extreme.

If Fae Tales Efnisien ever met any other version of Efnisien, he'd murder him. He'd probably torture him first and laugh about it, while grinding into his revealed organs. His heartsong has been Joy/Glee, simply because he loves cruelty and evil that much. He's like a pure distillation of someone who just doesn't need anything else if he has a knife and a squealing victim.

One of the challenges of writing Spoils of the Spoiled was how to make Efnisien more believably human and give him a back story that justified that. But Fae Tales Efnisien doesn't have that. He wasn't brainwashed or conditioned into being evil, he tried killing someone within about two days of being alive and loved inflicting pain from the moment he was born. Efnisien's response to meeting anyone from any other universe would be to torture and murder them. And probably laugh at them and mock them. I don't think any version of a human Efnisien would have much of an opportunity to do much more than be horrified, scream, and then die.

Imho, to me Fae Tales Efnisien and human Efnisien are two kind of different characters who look the same and have family members with the same names. But their upbringing was very different, and their capacity for compassion is different (one for example, has a capacity for compassion, the other doesn't).

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

I'm never quite sure how to answer stuff like this otherwise. Augus would see a human version of Augus as food. I don't even think he'd truly recognise the similarity otherwise and just be like 'how unfortunate for you that you're a vulnerable delicious sack of meat who looks like me, by the way are you vegan by any chance.'

Gwyn likewise looks down on humans as like...interesting but largely annoying creatures that he's glad to have nothing to do with, and I think he'd consider any version of his human self to be weak in nature. I think he'd find a peak alpha Gwyn obnoxious and kind of laughable sldakfja

I'm not generally writing characters with a view that they should ever meet versions of themselves, but like, Augus and Gwyn are varying degrees of 'loathe humans' to 'don't care about humans' on the spectrum.

I think of Gwyn and Augus met Lone Wolf Gwyn and Augus that would be interesting, but I also think they'd mostly just... semi-get along and think something was very broken with the world if they ever met, and probably be like 'we should fix this because this should not be happening and we should not be meeting each other like this' lol. I think canon GT Gwyn would find Lone Wolf Gwyn too soft-natured and a bit spoiled but post-TIP Gwyn might find his life fascinating, and Lone Wolf Gwyn would probably have a different reaction depending on whether we're talking about pre-GT Gwyn, GT-Gwyn, post-GT Gwyn, post-COFT Gwyn, TIP Gwyn, or post-TIP Gwyn because...I don't like my main characters to stay the same x.x

Thought exercises like this are ultimately baffling to me. The only one I know how to answer easily is FT Efnisien vs. human Efnisien because to me that is like two different characters meeting, and FT Efnisien is extremely predictable because 'be cruel, torture, and kill while having the time of his life' is basically his entire character aside from 'love my Aunt so much it's creepy.'

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia

'Most peak alphas are dangerous to be around anyone carnally. We are predisposed to ripping people’s consent away. The urge to rape and debase is built in.’

Reading this is a previous ask got be wondering.

Is Gary's arousal dependent on the other person's pleasure or can he come without it?

Would Gary be aroused / able to find release by straight up non-con? Like violating someone who very obviously didn't want it and wasn't getting any pleasure from it (so not dubcon or his past sexual interactions with Efnisien). Like would he (and other peak alphas) get turned on by violently attacking and raping someone?

And yeah I know dubcon in fiction is straight up non-con irl but my question is pertaining to this fictional world.

Thanks!

Hi hi anon!

Is Gary's arousal dependent on the other person's pleasure or can he come without it?

Gary's arousal has never been wholly dependent on the other lover's / person's pleasure, tbh. If they felt pleasure, but he wasn't in control, he wouldn't be aroused at all.

He prefers their pleasure be involved, but no, he doesn't need it the whole way through. Part of the way is enough for him.

Gary is first and foremost aroused by exercising his power/control over others in specific ways. He has specific blends of control, pleasure and pain that give him the best / most enjoyable sexual arousal? But for him, the enjoyment doesn't even need to be specifically about getting turned on. We'll see examples of that in his daydreams/thoughts about Efnisien as the story progresses.

It's also why so many of his overtures towards Efnisien involve taking control - grabbing him, pulling him close, forcing fingers into his mouth, or even his spit etc. They are all very intentionally claiming and invasive acts, and in many instances, Gary doesn't ask for consent first (though he'll consider a refusal, he won't always listen, and that's suited Efnisien, but that wouldn't suit many people).

Would Gary be aroused / able to find release by straight up non-con?

Tbh, this is a grey area that's actually difficult to answer. Gary's in a different world to ours (not just because it's fiction), he's in a world where peak alphas exist, and alphas exist, and consent is viewed on a different spectrum anyway.

I would say that yes, he can enjoy sex if someone was in pain and struggling against him, provided they consented to it in advance, and weren't using their safeword. However, he wouldn't necessarily be hung up on it if a person forgot their safeword. And he wouldn't check-in if a person showed signs of distress. He's visibly enjoyed it in Efnisien during some of their explorations together.

I think he would check-in more with Efnisien, because he has to keep seeing him, lol, but he has burned bridges with one-time lovers in the past, and I'm certain he has a reputation as being a callous, intense, and overwhelming lover who will give you a safeword, doesn't provide aftercare, and can be dangerous to certain people.

Gary couldn't enjoy sex or find release if he wasn't in control, even if the other partner was receiving pleasure. So no, pleasure alone isn't enough to create an arousal response. Tbh it's not enough in quite a few of the characters I write, like Hank in Eversion, or Augus in well, almost every story Augus has ever been in. I really enjoy writing sadists who need a certain degree of pain or control or fear in their partner to mount a sexual arousal response. I think the reason Gary isn't an outright rapist is because - aside from it being a repugnant and destructive act - even though rape involves controlling someone else, to him, the act of intending to rape someone for pleasure shows a lack of self-control in his mind.

And he wouldn't enjoy that. Plenty of peak alphas don't feel that way. But many peak alphas enjoy a degree self-control and self-mastery, and those peak alphas are considered more evolved or adapted for contemporary life. Augus and Temsen are the same. The instincts are there, but in constantly working against them, or learning how to wall them off, or redirect them, they experience self-mastery, which also makes them feel good (to a point, they will still always need to have some degree of control over others to truly enjoy their lives).

The challenge of creating something like a peak alpha who would be like, Id-fic hot in all these particular ways, was coming up with biological ways in the worldbuilding where that would work, and what it truly means to live in a world where a small portion of people naturally have these instincts.

I think all peak alphas become aware in adolescence that most of society expects them to be sociopaths, monsters, rapists, murderers, but also be rewarded for that with power, money, fortune, a choice of partners, etc. Some lean into it (Crielle, Gwyn) and others don't through things like... self-reflection, or love for family members... and they wrestle with it and decide how much of it they will indulge. Learning self-control makes adolescence extremely challenging for all peak alphas.

Like, what person wouldn't want to guarantee high marks on all of their assignments just through being able to say some words to your teachers? Even Gary cheated in this way, when he realised he could. it's not like anyone could stop him, he'd just need to use more words, lol.

But he loves his family, and they disapproved of this behaviour, so he had to learn differently. The instincts don't go away though, they're sublimated, and they still must be expressed in some form for peak alphas to actually be healthy. This makes him a controlling lover who wants some degree of pain, pleasure, struggle, conflict and distress during sex.

Like would he (and other peak alphas) get turned on by violently attacking and raping someone?

Gary's still a person with a conscience. I think the reality is he'd find it morally and ethically repugnant, but still become physiologically aroused. He's just not the kind of person to do this, so it's moot anyway. Like 'yes, he would, but he never would, so he's never going to be in this situation.'

Control doesn't always lead to arousal either, the pleasure of control itself doesn't have to be sexualised, and for peak alphas, it's the ultimate form of pleasure. Which is how Gary can do so much to Efnisien that is controlling, and show no signs of being like, physically hard. Arousal =/= sexual arousal. Gary talks about this later, but like, the reason he doesn't pursue coming around Efnisien initially is partly because coming/ejaculation isn't actually the best part of sex for him and it can actually lead to him having less control of himself.

But yeah most peak alphas would find that scenario extremely arousing (a lot of alphas would too, and there's probably a lot of porn that caters to those fantasies for both omegas and alphas), their entire physiology is built around controlling others, they literally have hypnosis, long-term compulsion and short-term compulsion built into their entire way of being. When your entire body is designed to control, subjugate and mentally coerce or brainwash others, maybe your body is also designed to enjoy that. Especially if your 'ideal partner' (at least in the case of alphas) is literally a physiologically weaker, susceptible, more vulnerable person, who craves to be safely controlled and contained, and goes into heats which are painful, and needs that combination of pain/pleasure that an alpha can give them, in order to endure it.

It's how Crielle can feel happy and content with her life while treating Efnisien the way that she does. She enjoys it. It makes her feel fulfilled as a person to have control of a company, her family, Efnisien, etc. It's pretty monstrous, and overall, it's one of the (many) reasons peak alphas will be extinct one day (and why, in this world, alphas and omegas are in the genetic minority). Peak alpha instincts are literally incompatible with global community-building, and they're being phased out just through...wanting so much control almost none of them want relationships!

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia. Just curious is Gary good at giving aftercare to his partners or is he like Temsen?

Also that list of stuff Gary's into is making me squeal XD Can't wait to see how and what sort of intimate activities Gary and Ef get up to together in the future

Hi hi,

This just really depends. Gary doesn't consider the people he has one night stands with to be 'partners.' He doesn't really bother with aftercare with them beyond making sure they're not injured physically (and by that, not even too injured, some blood is considered acceptable to him). He's usually the first one to leave, and he has left partners who are asleep / borderline knocked out once he's reassured himself that they don't need to go to a hospital. He usually just leaves a business card in case they leave him lmao.

And otherwise the only partner he's ever had is James. I'd say whatever aftercare he provides is mostly based around health more than comfort, though there might be some reassurance in there, alphas don't like to feel the alpha version of emasculated for too long, so like... most of the classic things associated with aftercare would just really prolong a scene for an alpha.

They're more likely to need to actually re-establish themselves as being independent and capable rather than want comfort. We even see this with Efnisien in their first real kind of 'sex' scene (the handjob scene coming up). Efnisien doesn't want to be hugged and coddled and petted, he actually gets up pretty quickly and goes to have a shower, in part because he's sort of...falling back into his own power again.

But that is also part of the aftercare for Gary.

I also think it's part of his aftercare - like, for himself - to be allowed to just leave or detach soon after, or be more like 'you don't matter to me so much that I need to be around you 24/7 I'm going to do something else now' - which is necessary for peak alphas to a degree as well.

With James, I'd say he probably made sure James had access to food and water, and you know, told him that he's beautiful and hot and held him for a while and then actually just gave James a hell of a lot of space if James wanted it, or went back to giving James a lot more power and control in the relationship.

I doubt Gary's ever given serious thought to the word 'aftercare' and if someone said 'what aftercare do you do' he'd just give them a blank look and say 'I don't do any.'

Everything he does after sex to him is the basic thing you do after anyone runs a physical marathon and might be injured after doing it. He's as likely to consider that aftercare as he is to consider a post-workout protein bar 'aftercare.' He doesn't really think that way! Which makes it harder to kind of think about for me in general because it's like, my kneejerk reaction is to be like 'he does not give a shit.' That's not quite true, and he does things that some would consider aftercare, just...Gary never would, and he's incredibly skimpy on it with strangers.

[not-poignant]

Not the same anon but your responses about Temsen have piqued my curiosity. How would you say TND Temsen differs from UtB Temsen?

And would UtB Temsen treat an omega partner differently to an alpha partner, in terms of aftercare or lack off? You said he treats alpha partners the way bad alphas treat omegas, so I'm assuming he wouldn't treat an omega partner like that (if he's ever had an omega partner in the past)?

In your mind, would Temsen have treated Efnisien the same as one of his alpha partners (rough, abruptly) or would he have been different and more considerate because of Efnisien's omega-like biology and trauma? Would Efnisien have even had a choice in the matter if Temsen decided to fuck him?

Also, apologies if these questions are annoying, there's no need to answer if you'd prefer not to. I just really enjoying hearing your thoughts and opinions on things

Hi anon!

These questions definitely aren't annoying! Thanks for answering them! I'm now going to ramble, you've enabled the beast :D :D

How would you say TND Temsen differs from UtB Temsen?

The biggest difference is that they're entirely different species, and in ways that pretty profoundly affect their behaviour.

Vench Temsen needs intimacy to live, and peak alpha Temsen can literally be killed by heartbreak. Those things create really disparate desires and needs. In that sense, how they orient to love and relationships is fundamentally different from each other, because what one needs and requires and enjoys, the other has a biological drive to avoid and be wary of.

We know from Gary, that most peak alphas avoid love, and in fact never bond with anyone at all, and that this isn't just choice-based, it's literally a biological drive to keep them safe and protected from the catastrophic results that can happen if they fall in love/bond and then have that bond rupture or break.

The ways they're similar are that they're both healers, they're both quite straightforward while being quite calculating, and they're both in possession of a lot more power than they often pretend to have. :D

But Vench Temsen is a lot softer (or as soft as he'll ever get) because he needs intimacy to live. I still think he sometimes comes across as a bit more detached and less warm than some of the other vench, and that we see him at his most comfortable and confident in his position as healer.

And would UtB Temsen treat an omega partner differently to an alpha partner, in terms of aftercare or lack off?

Underline the Black Temsen cannot sleep with omegas. Like, it's literally impossible for him, because he's not attracted to them in any way or form. He's never been aroused by, or attracted to omegas, or betas, and he exclusively - like Gary - sleeps with alphas. (Though I think Gary has been attracted to betas in the past, he just hasn't pursued it).

I can't imagine Temsen with an omega partner at all. For a start, omegas aren't fully coherent around him, and can't be fully lucid / aware all the time, especially once Temsen's pheromones go up. There are mild exceptions, but eventually an omega would essentially become brainwashed and just do what Temsen wanted. Temsen - aside from not being interested in omegas - would find that unattractive as well. He wants people who know what's happening to them, not people who are so mentally and physically affected by his pheromones (in a way he can't really control except through distance) that they lose that knowledge.

Most peak alphas aren't attracted to omegas - Augus is actually an outlier for this! Crielle also isn't. Every peak alpha we've ever met - bar one - has never been attracted to omegas.

In your mind, would Temsen have treated Efnisien the same as one of his alpha partners (rough, abruptly) or would he have been different and more considerate because of Efnisien's omega-like biology and trauma?

Temsen would have been businesslike about it. He would have seen it as discharging a medical need, like a procedure that he knows Efnisien won't enjoy but is necessary - sort of like when he knocks Efnisien out while Efnisien is screaming at him. I don't think Efnisien having omega biology would have changed that? It's just Temsen is very aware that Efnisien isn't a partner he'd choose for himself, he's someone who needs something medically, that an alpha companion isn't there to do.

He wouldn't have been intentionally rough or mean, but it would have been rape, and he likely would have used a combination of medication and his pheromones to make sure Efnisien was both unable to fight back properly, and semi-'consenting' to what was happening to him. Regarding the aftermath, I think he would have gone the 'you couldn't help it and I didn't give you a choice, that's very unfair, let's organise some therapy for you.' Sort of...caring but cold?

It likely would have exacerbated the infection he was experiencing and Temsen is fully aware that it could have killed him as a result, which is why he's kind of regretful about realising that about himself (i.e. that he would have done something that would have been the wrong thing to do, because he wouldn't have cared about Efnisien's consent).

Also Temsen wouldn't have wanted to really do it, so I don't think he'd be kind so much as 'I know this is something we both don't really want to do, let's get it over and done with, okay? I'll make it as easy as possible.'

I think Temsen likes Efnisien as a person, even as an alpha, but he doesn't want to bond with anyone. And that becomes extremely clear when people push for a closer connection to him. He keeps everyone at arm's length. Efnisien's first encounter with sex being with someone who deliberately keeps him emotionally at arm's length, who is calculating and manipulative, and who then is like, abrupt and straightforward about it... even if Temsen wasn't seeking to devastate or traumatise Efnisien, these things would be devastating and traumatising anyway.

I love Temsen as like... Efnisien's doctor. He's protective and does care for Efnisien, and has no problems with seeing Efnisien as an alpha, which is very affirming - especially in the no-nonsense way Temsen does things. But Temsen is not a good candidate to be a close friend, a companion, or a lover. When he stays in his category, he's amazing, when he branches out of that category, he can be very dangerous. I think this is also a big reason why Temsen also keeps to himself. He's not unaware of this.

Would Efnisien have even had a choice in the matter if Temsen decided to fuck him?

No. Zero chance. Temsen would have seen it as medically necessary (and to a degree, Efnisien did need medically necessary intervention that he didn't want. Including surgery.)

He was the one advising Gary all along to put his fingers inside of him, and Gary was the one who came up with the compromise of digging his fingers into Efnisien's back to try and access the rest of the lare membranes/veins this way instead. It was Gary who contradicted Temsen's advice and tried to find more appropriate workarounds that wouldn't be as traumatising to Efnisien.

I think Temsen actually lost patience with Gary's 'sensitivity' a few times, tbh. But Gary's method/s, while they didn't always work, and were sometimes complicated by Gary's own avoidance, were the best way to handle Efnisien as a person.

I love Temsen, in all his forms. I knew when he came into this story he'd be an absolute powerhouse. He pulls rank on Gary, which gives you an idea of how much power he holds - which really, compared to every other character we've met so far, is all of it. But that also makes him even less suited to things like love, relationships, intimacy etc. Not only that, he doesn't want or need it in order to be healthy.

Peak alphas can get all of their genuine needs met through the attainment and maintenance of power, and having control over others. Temsen isn't missing out on anything, his quality of life is actually pretty good!

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia. Hope you're having a nice day.

So I've been thinking that since Efnisien in UtB doesn't have a birth certificate couldn't Hillview just... fake his death?? I mean Crielle has already suggested that they kill him and Gary doesn't want to give him back to his family so wouldn't it be safer for Ef if they just thought he was dead?

Hi anon!

It has been a nice day! I've just finished chapter 57 of Underline the Black, and Efnisien's and Gary's sex life has just woken up, lol.

As to faking his death, not really.

Crielle had a biometric and GPS tracker in Efnisien's neck, and she has been idly monitoring it. She's known the moment that it's been taken out. She knows that Hillview is ordering large quantities of ardolphogen they shouldn't need. She knows they're keeping up Efnisien's alpha medication regimen as much as possible. And she also expects that if they become sympathetic to him, they will likely try and fake his death.

Crielle's actually about to start becoming an active villain in the story again, because she's none too pleased about the ardolphogen and the removal of the tracker. She would absolutely suspect them of potentially trying to conceal Efnisien by him 'fake dying' and she has too many sources in too many places for this to be really viable. Especially because Gary does have the goal of eventually getting Efnisien comfortable with leaving Hillview sometimes, going to cafes etc. going out to other places, even going to other medical facilities if necessary (i.e. for surgery to remove the prostheses in his testicles).

In that sense, it would sadly also be all too easy for Crielle to find out if Efnisien was 'fake dead.'

This will come up in conversation later in the story, when Gary is in a bind and talking about what to do about Efnisien's situation. But there's nothing safe about faking his death, because Crielle is already expecting that this is what they'd be potentially stupid enough to do. And if they did it well enough, she's also happy to ruin the reputation of Hillview in the process, as being so ineffective at what they do, they killed an omega in the process.

Faking someone's death usually means having to remove them from the country in question, and establishing a new identity. The latter could be done, but Efnisien isn't leaving Western Australia, and he can't leave the people who are so integral to his healing in general, particularly Gary, and Gary would never leave Hillview.

So... they need other options instead.

[not-poignant]

Now that things in UTB are getting more sexually charged I’m beginning to wonder what sex between Gary and Efnisien will look like. Thinking back to FFS, I think I remember you saying somewhere that Dr. Gary would be more interested in relaxing and essentially getting serviced during sex and immediately taking a nap afterwards lol. Do you feel that UTB Gary is the same? Thanks! (<3)

I definitely don't think he'd be the same!

I wouldn't write Underline the Black if I thought he would be the same because, tbh, I have zero interest in writing a lazy lover who just wants to be serviced. Dr Gary can deal with that in his own time in FFS.

A big part of Dr Gary's style in Falling Falling Stars was down to the constant physical and emotional fatigue that his job/s caused - especially the one-on-one therapy - in his personal life.

Gary in Underline the Black doesn't have this at all. He doesn't see any violent juveniles in one-on-one therapy and he never has. He's always worked in a job that's demanding in some ways, but a lot less demanding in others. If he drops his hours (like he has), that doesn't create more little serial killers, for example. And that was definitely a concern of his in Falling Falling Stars.

So yeah no, he's not going to be anything like how I imagined FFS Dr Gary to be, because otherwise this whooooole story and universe would never have a reason to exist :D

[not-poignant]

I find Caleb's 'omega envy' really interesting. Is he aware that he has it? And does he know that he's envying a designation that is oppressed? I can't help but feel like it's similar to privileged white people who are jealous of minorities because they've never actually experience what being a member of that minority group actually entails.

Like if Caleb was actually an omega, I highly doubt he'd have the same amount of bodily autonomy or a respectable job he enjoys. To me Caleb comes across as someone who is lacking the self awareness to acknowledge the privileges he has and how fortunate he is to have been born a beta in a society that treats alphas and betas better than omegas.

Idk if I'm making any sense with this but even the way he treats Efnisien. It's like Caleb is completely unaware that Efnisien as an omega is the unfortunate one here, not Caleb.

Whewz sorry for the rant.

Hi anon!

I feel like you might be new to omegaverse. Generally speaking, and very broadly across every omegaverse story, the alpha/beta/omega designations are considered gender designations. They're often called 'secondary genders.' And by and large, for over 20 years, they are considered either tropey or subversive explorations of gender, what makes gender and transness. (Sometimes it's just an excuse for knotting though, let's be real).

It's possible you've only read Underline the Red and not Underline the Black because omegaverse is also defined as a gender in Underline the Black here:

"It's the appendix [rutting] of the secondary genders."

In that sense, Faber's (I think you mean Faber, and not Caleb) omega envy is a gender comparison, or a trans metaphor, and not a race metaphor (especially since races do exist in the Hillview universe, and omega/beta/alpha designations aren't considered ethnicities, because people of all races can be these secondary gender designations and experience what Faber's experiencing too.)

The comparison that's more apt therefore is when someone who is AMAB knows/feels that they are a woman. Women are generally oppressed and live in misogynistic societies, and trans women do sometimes get challenged along the axis of 'why would you want to be a woman' (they don't have a choice, is the thing, they're trans) or 'how can you be a woman when you can never understand our oppression' (a giant TERF red flag, and absolutely concern trolling, because trans women are some of the most oppressed people in the world).

Like if Caleb [Faber]* was actually an omega, I highly doubt he'd have the same amount of bodily autonomy or a respectable job he enjoys.

He wouldn't. He knows that. He's definitely aware that he has omega envy, and he's ashamed of it actually for the reasons you're pointing out (though along a gender axis, and not a race one). Underline the Red only has two chapters up on AO3 and it's very early days re: what we know about Faber's deeper thoughts regarding this issue. But he knows better than most how many omegas get treated because he works at Hillview.

To me Caleb [Faber] comes across as someone who is lacking the self awareness to acknowledge the privileges he has and how fortunate he is to have been born a beta in a society that treats alphas and betas better than omegas.

This just isn't how being trans works.

A trans woman can't go 'well I'm going to remind myself of all the privileges I've had being raised as a man so I'll go back to feeling grateful for being a man (even though I'm a woman and very few people respect that.)' I mean they can do this, but it's not exactly a very gender affirming thing to do, y'know?

It's like when people say that nonbinary folks who are "assigned gender passing" (i.e. they appear to be the gender that they were assigned at birth) have 'privilege' over nonbinary people that aren't. That's somewhat true in specific situations, but what it actually means is the 24/7 experience of having your gender constantly disrespected, and living in a world where affirmation almost never exists except among a very closed knit group of people. So yes, there's some privilege in some settings, but in the day-to-day, there's also a great amount of ongoing oppression that continues.

Also, as a trans person, I know I'm writing a trans metaphor, because I'm using a trope system (omegaverse) that is famously used to explore gender, and because I literally called it a gender system in my story, which is how you know it's about gender, and not race.

Within the Hillview and omegaverse universes, people of colour can experience this, it's not exclusive to white people. It doesn't belong to white people. It's about gender, which happens to everyone.

Idk if I'm making any sense with this but even the way he treats Efnisien. It's like Caleb [Faber] is completely unaware that Efnisien as an omega is the unfortunate one here, not Caleb [Faber].

I don't think... you've read this story all the way through? Or have only read the first few chapters before stopping. So I'll be clear even though it might be a spoiler for you, anon, Efnisien isn't an omega. He's an alpha. Efnisien is unfortunate because he's suffered a lifetime of abuse and medical experimentation, and for many other reasons, not least that he still experiences some omega oppression (along with transphobia), but Efnisien's not an omega.

*Edit to quotes added for clarity.

[not-poignant]

Any thoughts on reactive vs proactive characters? Obviously the old adage that proactive > reactive should be taken with a grain of salt, but I worry my (very reactive) MC might be difficult to engage with. His emotional torpor and lack of engagement with the world around him is key to the themes I'm trying to explore, and external circumstances (the antagonist, the deuteragonist) drive the machinations of the plot, but I worry that the readers will echo HIS disinterest in the world around him.

Hi anon,

My thoughts are that I can like both kinds of characters if they're written well and still have a growth arc! (Note: Depending on your genre, a growth arc is not necessary)

I go into a bit more detail under the Read More, but you can always leave it there if you want. :D

Neil Gaiman has pretty famously written some very classic reactive characters, the most notably passive being Shadow from American Gods, where there was a lot of intentionality behind that choice, right down to the name of the character.

I can sometimes get bored of reactive characters if there's no growth arc (i.e. if they're not become proactive over time, they will generally be The Same Always and that can inspire lack of interest if they're the MC and the other characters aren't strong enough to carry the story).

But I can also get frustrated with proactive characters that never learn how to stop and listen or slow down either.

I would say it really just depends on the growth arc you're engaging with, and also accepting that some people will actually find your work difficult to engage with. Like, I do not enjoy all of Gaiman's stuff (that is widely beloved) because of some passive characterisation. That's just how some of us are in our personal preferences. It worked for me in some of his stuff, and less so in others. (I love Gaiman, as a person, and I love a lot of his writing, it's just...how I feel about some of his other writing).

The fact is, if you have an MC who isn't driving the story forward, and a reader occupying that space is occupying a passive, disinterested space, some of them will feel that. It's up to you to decide how long you want them to feel that, and if you want them to feel awful by the end of your story or hopeful etc. There are thousands (probably more than thousands) of stories that have intentionally tried to create feelings of ennui, apathy, disinterest, boredom and more in their readers.

So I guess a lot of this is also down to genre. It's a lot more acceptable in literature, for example, to write impassive, disinterested, or 'empty' characters, and it's a lot more acceptable in stories where you're not supposed to feel much hope by the end of it and/or are meant to kind of find the hope for yourself. It's less common in stories that have outright happy endings (but you can still find it, all the same). It's definitely not common in romance, and when it is done, it tends to be with a view to rehabilitating or healing the character in question.

I don't know what kind of story you're writing anon, what the genre is, what your intentions are, how you want to end it, how long you want a reader to feel what the MC is feeling, and so on. All of those things kind of impact how passive/inactive/reactive characters are perceived, and all of those things will influence how your reader feels. Especially because you're not just writing a reactive character, you're writing a disinterested character, and reactive =/= disinterested or apathetic.

For example, one of my characters, Efnisien, is an extremely reactive character in Underline the Black, but he's not disinterested, lacking engagement, or in emotional torpor. So it's also worth being clear that reactive characters can be extremely dynamic characters, or they can be very flat.

I don't know if you've read American Gods by Gaiman but it can be good research into how very proactive characters around Shadow can drive the story forward when the MC can't. But I will be frank - one of that story's biggest critiques is that Shadow is such a flat and empty character, even though that was kind of the point of his character.

All up I would say that readers are likely to feel or resonate with what your character is feeling or resonating with, especially if your POV is 'close' to the character. It's up to you what you want to do with that, and what you're trying to achieve. There's nothing wrong with making your readers feel apathetic, disinterested, or disconnected from a character or a story or the events in the story, and you can use that to great effect, but it will be worth knowing exactly what you want the ideal reader's experience to be, and being realistic that some people may not like that in the process.

For example, when I write moments of extreme tension or alternatively a lot of angst, I know I will lose readers who just don't want to feel that way for long. But I'm doing something intentional, and for the people who can handle it, they get the relief of comfort or relief-of-tension in the end. I write intentionally emotionally difficult scenes not just for characters, but specifically for readers, I'm going somewhere with it, and not everyone wants to be on that journey, and some don't realise until they've gone a couple of miles and then are like 'oh actually no, I don't like feeling this way, I have to stop now.'

(Conversely, to draw back to characters that are proactive and extremely opinionated -> they can be annoying as hell, there's no exact 'perfect character' for every reader, y'know? But I do think intentionally writing a disinterested, emotionally numb and disengaged character can create the same in readers, and some will check out long before you ever get to make your 'point.')

On a complete aside, I would not personally recommend writing this kind of character in a first novel, imho, (partly because it can sometimes be recognisable 'new author / debut novel / still learning characterisation' trait) but that's neither here nor there - my personal recommendations only really apply to me and the folks who feel it applies to, and everyone else can do what they like lol.

Anyway tl;dr - A lot of this will depend on the point of your character's disinterest and apathy, it will depend on your intent, it will depend on genre, it will depend on the kind of ending you're aiming for in the story, and it will depend on how close your POV is to the MC (first person is most likely to drive a reader away in these circumstances, for example). If you can get the technique down, it can be really masterful in writing when done well, it's just sometimes quite hard to do well. But again, the only way to learn how to do it is to do it!

I would also pay attention to how you feel upon re-reading your story. If you feel flat or disinterested, vs. engaged and curious about what comes next, many of your readers will have a similar response. Oh! And do research excellent novels with flatter, passive characters at the helm!

...That wasn't a tl;dr at all.