#anti liz danes

[jessmmariano]

If I think about Jess’s childhood/high school years too much I get sad because no one deserves that. And Gilmore Girls just glosses over it.

I get that’s not the tone of the show, but how on earth did Liz get a redemption plot? Meanwhile, so many fans hate Jess just because he made mistakes at seventeen. His mother was an alcoholic and addict who drank while she was pregnant. Jess worked two jobs while in high school so he could be financially secure. It was heavily implied that Liz was constantly dating/marrying men who mistreated her and Jess. Yet so many fans continue to hate Jess.

[bisexualpunk]

the first scene that lays the groundwork of jess’s character (luke explaining the situation to lorelai in his apartment) is actually so interesting and telling in regards to liz’s character, especially considering the direction they decide to go when they introduce/develop her.

luke puts the blame for jess getting into trouble and acting out and liz sending him to stars hollow solely on liz’s shoulders. he says she probably only gave it five minutes of thought. he says she gave up on jess and he doesn’t sound the least bit surprised. he says it’s obvious liz is the problem and that jess needs to get away from her because she’s a “nutjob” and a “selfish basket case.”

luke knows who his sister is. he knows the kind of damage that can be inflicted on a kid being raised by her. and this does paint a really dark picture for jess’s home life and upbringing and it’s sad that he wasn’t viewed through the lens of being a very damaged kid by the characters or even by some of the audience after we get that kind of a rundown.

but then we meet liz. and we see her interact with jess. and we see how she affects him. and like. i just don’t understand how the narrative shifts so suddenly to paint liz as this free spirit that’s earned her son’s love and forgiveness and jess as a kid who is holding a grudge against her and being petty when he should be sucking it up and accommodating her.

and i really don’t understand the leniency given to liz because she’s “changed and bettered herself” but not to jess for overcoming the incredibly awful hand he was dealt

[frazzledsoul]

A non exhaustive list of terrible things Liz Danes did/said after she showed up:

- Makes a beeline straight for the pot the minute she shows up

- Hasn't called to check on Jess once in the nine (!) months he's been gone from Stars Hollow

- It's established that she generally has a terrible track record with men/employment/stable housing

- It's also established she is easily able to manipulate Luke into doing her bidding and in pretending that every new terrible idea is no big deal

- Makes a show of introducing Jess to TJ and acting like she's the best mom ever despite his obvious discomfort

-Makes several statements to Lorelai to the effect that Luke has been cleaning up after her for her entire life and finding her jobs, apartments, helping her out financially, getting rid of dangerous men

- To quote Jess verbatim: "I don't like this guy. I don't like any of the guys. She doesn't give a crap what I think. I've got nineteen years of proof to back me up". She always chose her men over him, no matter how terrible they were.

- Luke is involved in sussing out Jess's whereabouts and living situation, giving him a place to sleep (thanks to Lorelai), offering him money to fix his car. Liz is not involved in any of that and doesn't offer. She signed off on being the parent a long time ago.

- Liz shows back up for the wedding and immediately manipulates Luke into helping arrange the wedding, selling jewelry in the diner, inviting strippers to the diner...when she's around, he ends up doing her bidding almost automatically. Zero boundaries.

- There's more references to her sketchy self-employment and the many times Luke watched it fall apart.

- Luke's the one who goes to New York, finds Jess, has him go back to Stars Hollow as a favor to him. No comment from Liz on his lifestyle or offering him a place to stay. Luke is the only one who fights with him about it. Luke's also the one to give him romantic advice as Liz is not involved in that at all.

- Liz reveals her romantic history right before the wedding. Second husband was okay, third husband was not and died mysteriously, boyfriend after third husband was also okay. This is also the only wedding she's not been drunk at.

- Liz assumes Jess broke Rory's heart even though she has no idea who that is. Lorelai steps in and defends Jess, saying it just didn't work out.

- Luke is roped into taking care of Liz and TJ for several weeks after they are in a car accident and following them around on the Ren Faire circuit. I only mention this because he is, as always, forever her caretaker.

- Liz and TJ get into a screaming fight early in S5 and ruin Luke and Lorelai 's date.

- Sometime in S5 or S6 Liz mentions that she's never made dinner, not once. Jess is around 20 years old at this time period. How did he eat?

-Liz manipulates Luke into letting TJ work at the construction at Lorelai's house. She cries and throws a tantrum until he gives in. TJ somehow knocks a big hole in the upstairs of Lorelai's house.

-Liz does not show up to Jess's open house, nor does she ever mention it (or him at all) afterwards. Luke shows up to support him and tells him he's proud of him. Mom can't be bothered.

-When Liz finds out she's pregnant with Doula, she casually mentions to Luke (in public!) that she binge drank while she was pregnant with Jess. Luke isn't shocked by this.

-Liz claims to Luke that TJ abandoned her after she told him she was pregnant. Luke goes to TJ and TJ reveals that Liz got violent and threw half the household objects at his head and kicked him out when he was excited about it. Luke goes to Liz afterwards and she rants that if she stays with TJ her kid's going to end up ruined and she'll have to send it away. Luke is the one who reminds her that Jess turned out OK and that he's actually doing great (not that Liz has any knowledge of this at all or should receive any credit for it). Liz and TJ reconcile.

- Liz and TJ invite Luke over for dinner in early S7. Their stove is broken. He has to make dinner himself (because of course he does). Despite formerly being supportive, they tell him Lorelai was bad for him and Liz says some mumbo jumbo about how they were never meant to be together. Luke runs into Lorelai at the grocery store and says the whole thing was a bad idea and he'll be civil to her, but he's not interested in a personal relationship again. Lorelai basically doesn't go anywhere in town she could run into him for the next six months (okay, the romantic advice isn't terrible per se but Liz is seriously inconsistent on this issue).

- Luke attends Doula's birth. Liz is excited about April being a free babysitter.

- Liz dumps Doula on Luke at work a few weeks after she is born because she "needs a break" and disappears for hours.

-Liz and TJ invite themselves to stay at Luke's apartment some weeks later, shortly after Lorelai and Christopher have broken up. Now Liz is all excited about Lorelai and Luke getting back together (pick a lane, woman).

-In the series finale, Liz tries to dump Doula on Luke at work AGAIN (how often does she do this?) Luke stops her before she can leave, and makes her take the baby with her.

-Liz and TJ are mercifully offscreen for AYITL. Jess fulfills the role of being Luke's sounding board and attempting to comfort him when he has problems with Lorelai and there are already enough quirky townies, so she isn't needed. TJ and Liz are involved in a mysterious vegetable cult that they eventually get kicked out of, which provides a reason for Jess to come into town every so often. He's now the support to his family that Luke used to be on his own. It's implied that this is not the first time TJ and Liz have gotten involved in a cult over the past few years

My point to all of this is that Liz is not stable, she's not a decent person, she has not "redeemed" herself, she may be clean and sober but she's still horribly selfish, unreliable, and a pain in Luke's ass. There's a bunch of stuff that is implied in Jess's behavior that indicates she was a horrible mom, but we don't get the full picture until she shows up. The full picture is...a lot worse.

[queenunderthatmountain]

do you ever just think about how it might have been if Jess had moved in with Luke just a few years earlier

[georgianadarcies]

luke saying that liz was a “nut job” and a “selfish basket case” and that “you could never count on liz for anything” and everything else he says about her… gee I wonder why jess had such a terrible childhood

[sagesfandomspot]

Luke suggesting Liz, of all people, to Lane for pregnancy tips genuinely made me anxious. Like, I would’ve trusted Lane more with Taylor Doose idc but not Liz ����

Nooo kidding like Liz is the LAST person I would send Lane to. Like Luke says "she's a veteran" like sure she's been pregnant a couple times, but did she handle each of those pregnancies well at all?? Binge drinking and kicking her husband out and seemingly not telling her first kid about her second kid all points to no. Lane could easily go to Lorelai for advice, and sure, Luke and Lorelai were on the outs at this point, but there's gotta be someone besides Liz for Luke to point Lane to.

[jojoblessed365]

Okay, this is just a theory and because I'm ferociously bored, so here goes:

I just finished watching Wednesday and while watching episode 5, I couldn't help but draw parallels between Gomez-Morticia-Wednesday and TJ-Liz-Doula respectively.

Both sets of parents are full-on sexually romantic with no boundaries whatsoever, and their children can't help but blanche at that. I personally feel that Liz and TJ are egotistic and tend to get wrapped up in their own problems and Doula is sadly caught in the middle.

Also, it would be a good conflict- that no matter how much Liz has changed and handling parenting in two completely different ways (being a single mom with Jess and then co-parenting with TJ their kid Doula), Doula ironically becomes a version of teen Jess.

And then I watched episode 7 and loved the relationship between Uncle Fester and Wednesday. And I immediately thought of the possible rapport between Jess and Doula- coming in whenever she needs a shakeup in her life or going through an existential crisis.

Anyway, I believe that if the Palladinos ever want to go back to Stars Hollow and the Gilmore universe, it would be so fun to see a different perspective and they should take Doula's POV, given that we haven't seen her and she is a "blank slate"; also I'm so bummed we never got to see the Jess spinoff and I think they could recycle the material and use Doula as the lead where she searched for a family member and attempts to find herself. And then Jess periodically comes to check on her, much like how Lenny Bruce would pop in at odd times in The Marvelous Mrs Maisel.

Anyway, I'm fully out of steam!!! Drop your thoughts in the comments or reblog!!!

Mic drop!!!

[scoopsgf]

sharing this post bc liz danes makes me want to throw something https://jenlindleygf.tumblr.com/post/634412658225037312/why-liz-danes-sucks-a-closer-look

YES everything isabel says is 100% correct always. also i want you to know that you sent this when i was right in the middle of writing a liz scene and it fueled my hate fire <3

[love-geeky-fangirl]

I have noticed a weird double standard in the Gilmore Girls fandom where when someone questions Lorelai and defends Emily everyone jumps down their throat like: "nooo, Emily was abusive, she wanted Lorelai to get married at 16, she was controlling etc, Lorelai was right to cut her off because she was toxic for her" yet people question why Lane didn't want to move in with Mrs Kim and raise her children there?? After Mrs Kim was 100x more strict and controlling than Emily?? And they say that Lane was apparently ungrateful for everything her mom has sacrificed for her because her mother is an immigrant that moved to America just to give Lane a better future and raised her according to her own values, which is apparently great and traditional? Do you not see the double standard here?? Did Emily also not raise Lorelai according to her own values? But what, just because she's a WASP that makes her values wrong and only Mrs Kim's Korean values are the right ones? Didn't Emily also want to give her daughter a better future?

Both mothers raised their daughters in the way they *thought* was the best but of course it didn't turn out to actually *be* the best and it did harm to Lorelai and Lane. Both daughters are allowed to draw boundaries with their mothers in adulthood and to not want their mothers involved in raising their children because they know how badly they messed up with raising them. That doesn't make them either "right" or "ungrateful" it is their decision.

[jessmmariano]

That one scene where Dean tries to act like he was born and raised in Stars Hollow and that it’s his town to try and intimidate Jess makes me laugh so hard. First off, why would Jess care? It’s not like he likes Stars Hollow. Secondly, Dean had only been living there for a few years. His family was from Chicago. If anything Jess had more ties to Stars Hollow (although he’d probably hate to admit it) because his family had been living there for generations. Dean’s way of intimidating Jess is just so funny to me.

[antimatterpod]

On Raffi by Anika Dane is in the current issue of Star Trek Quarterly

The Diversity Paradox: Star Trek, Star Trek fandom, and the limits of fandom as progressivism by Liz Barr is in Speculative Insight

SECOND, it’s time. Anika and Liz are being called away from a fancy 32nd century cocktail party to stand in an empty void and discuss the first two episodes of Star Trek: Discovery‘s fifth and final season…

Compared with the over-the-top emotional drama monarchs of Star Trek: Picard‘s third season, it’s just nice to be with competent professionals who get the job done

Picking up the threads of Star Trek: Picard‘s first season

Captain Picard is still the most important individual who ever existed

This arc so far has the Star Trek V problem: they can’t actually meet God, so the real meaning of life will be the friends we made along the way

Tilly has a rare but valuable anti-ambition arc

Moll and L’ak have wandered in from another series, but we’re not mad about it

It’s nice that Vance has a wife and Tilly has a love interest, but we’re still shipping Vance/Tilly and we’re not sorry

[frazzledsoul]

Not to be a passive-aggressive bitch about it or anything but...

Liz Danes's extreme patterns of neglect, abandonment, and likely enabling abuse were NOT the result of her male relatives not coddling her enough. She binge drank during her pregnancy with Jess, raised her son in an environment full of chaos and violence, had a hard time holding down an apartment or a job, was constantly bringing unstable if not abusive men to their home, and forced him into a pattern where he was expected to leave the premises when she brought a date home. Liz has also copped to never fixing him dinner as a child, so he likely didn't have reliable shelter or clothing at any given time as well as food. She sends him away when he's too much trouble, won't let him come home for Christmas, doesn't call to check in on him when he leaves the actual stable home he's been living in for two years, and then expects him to be grateful for her company and walk her down the aisle at her wedding.

She doesn't give him money to get back to New York (Luke does), she doesn't bother to show up at his work events (Luke does), she's not shown to have any appreciation or pride in his accomplishments afterwards (again, Luke). She starts off her second pregnancy with violently attacking her husband, throwing him out of the house, and then claiming to Luke that he abandoned her. She claims she has the raise the baby alone because otherwise he'll turn out to be a disaster and Luke has to remind her that Jess is an actual success story (no thanks to her, BTW). He reconciles Liz and TJ and it appears that Liz remembers to feed her daughter once she's born, but she's still constantly dropping her off with Luke at work and ten years later is getting involved in cults.

None of this is a result solely of William and Luke not being sufficiently emotional. She is a grown woman who treated her child like a houseplant and put him last in her affections, badly neglecting and emotionally scarring him. There's no proof she physically abused him or let her partners do it, but based on her other behavior it wouldn't be a surprise. Her sins are quite legendary and cannot be solely blamed on her male family members. She also feels no guilt or shame for any of them and while she stopped abusing drugs and alcohol is for the most part as selfish and manipulative as ever.

Far from being coddled, what she really needed was to be forced to take responsibility for her own life and if that isn't going to happen, to remove anyone vulnerable from her care for their own good. She's pretty much a monster even if a lot of her antics are played off for laughs.

So no. Luke and William are not responsible for her behavior and far from being denied "love", it seems that she got plenty of affection and attention from them (especially Luke) given the extent to which they enabled her behavior. That behavior is her own fault and her own responsibility.

[marian0]

Rewatching gilmore girls, and I’m at the part where liz is getting married to TJ. And the whole thing just makes me so mad. Liz was a horrible mother to Jess and the entire time she is on screen gushing about her wedding, her friends, her new life, I cant help thinking about how much Jess must have gone through as a kid with her. Like I’m happy for her that she got better and got married, had a kid, started a new family basically getting a second chance. But it sucks that the show and by extension Luke and Liz never once mention how she fucked up as a mother.

The absolute worse is Luke acting like Jess is the bad guy for not wanting to attend the wedding, and guilt tripping him. Luke goes all the way to New York to tell him he has to attend the wedding because he was there for Jess when no one else was and so Jess owes him? Not once did he stop and think, WHY is Jess refusing.

I will never forgive the show for downplaying Jess’s shitty upbringing and Liz’s negligence, while simultaneously treating him like a villain for the most basic teenage stuff

[georgianadarcies]

liz saying she’s gonna do all the healthy things she didn’t do the last time she was pregnant “like not binge drinking” makes my blood boil. makes me absolutely livid. the shit she did with jess even before he was born and she just finds it amusing and looks back on it nonchalantly with no guilt or anything she is a horrible human being

[orangesrotting]

ok <3 been seeing a lot of liz danes hate on my dash AND I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE. it drives me insane how she just. became a regular on the show when we all saw the impact she had on jess as a mother??? like??? he literally admitted himself that it was bc of her he didn’t think he deserved to go to college. HELL she literally said herself SHE BINGE DRANK when she was pregnant with jess and it was played off as a literal joke?????? even when luke described her before she came to stars hollow it was implied that she was a horrible mother yet when she comes they suddenly develop a relationship?? after years and years of luke cleaning up her messes???? and everything that she did to jess WHO LUKE LOVES BTW is just. glossed over??? makes me beyond enraged sorry