#anti twincest

[norringtondeservestheworld]

can't believe it's canon that in the last season Jaime was chilling with his brother then Brienne entered and Jaime jumped on his feet murmuring my lady like a Jane Austen's hero and Tyrion was like damn bro, someone is smitten, isn't it?

[aplusbequalsc]

[unknown-terrain]

Congrats to show!Jaime for finally making it to #1 on a popular media list! 😂 Good to see that heading onto the 5th anniversary of the disastrous S8, Jaime's forced Twincest ending is still truly hated by the masses and that Dumb and Dumber's dream of J/C becoming the "true love" story the audience would grow to love be completely shattered over and over. Anybody with a functioning brain could have told them Twincest was never going to be loved. GRRM himself told them that through asoiaf and making Jaime/Brienne his Beauty and the Beast story but of course D&D never understood the books and thought they could do better. Anyways it's always nice to see D&D get hate for ruining Jaime lmao.

[chrkrose]

When it comes to twincest and their relationship, Jaime Lannister is the victim. Cersei Lannister is an abuser. Mutual abuse doesn’t exist.

I had both a tumblr interaction and I saw a Reddit post on r/asoiaf mainly talking about the sane thing. How Jaime was toxic to Cersei and that the relationship was mutually abusive. In the Reddit post specifically, they talk about how Jaime r*aped Cersei by coercion because of an specific quote of hers where she thinks of him (with a smile) when another character mentions a situation where she felt like she couldn’t say no and asks Cersei if she ever lived the same.

So I decided to write this down because much like @ginmo did once, it’s absolutely infuriating that in the year of 2023, we have such a hard time identifying a male victim of abuse.

I’m gonna use the old “reverse the genders” argument here because unlike most cases, I think this is one of the rare situations where it can be applied, because even though Jaime and Cersei live in a very patriarchal society and he is a man, he is in a rare position where he doesn’t hold power over her in terms of their social hierarchy and overall relationship dynamic. Thats not to say that a man can’t be a victim of abuse even in a patriarchal society where the social structure favors him to be the one in power. Because while misogyny and male privilege is often tied with domestic violence, and used as tools to abuse female victims, they aren’t necessarily fundamental for abuse to happen. And reversing the roles in this particular situation is interesting because it shows how much gender bias blinds people to the obviousness of their dynamic. As if a veil is lifted and you see what would be so easily identified if Jaime had been a woman and Cersei, a man. So let’s do that, lets reverse their roles.

Here are the Lannister twins. From an early age, they engaged in sexual interactions. One of the twins, the boy, from an early age impressed upon the other twin, the girl, that they belong together, are one soul in two bodies, they were born together so they will die together, that they are soulmates and actually one person. The girl of course, buys into all of that. This same twin, the boy, from an early age shows not only a dominant personality but also actions that speak of a flawed character. This twin brother sexually/physically assaulted their other sibling once for example (by twisting his penis when he was a baby). This twin brother, by age 12, murders his best friend because said best friend showed an interest in his twin sister. This twin brother seduces and manipulates his twin sister by spending an entire night having sex with his sister for the first time when they are teens, not allowing her to sleep properly the entire night so they have sex, while talking about how they will be separated forever if the twin sister doesn’t accept what he’s proposing, that is a small price to pay and his twin sister needs to agree in giving up her birthright so she can take a role where she will lose everything she was supposed to become (a mother, a wife and the lady of her house) so she can stay beside him forever in court. Like that, the twin sister will only ever be with him, no one else. All of that while the twin brother had always intended on actually marrying someone else, someone this twin brother has actually desired his entire life since he was young, even though said twin brother couldn’t stand the thought of someone wanting his twin sister (again, murdered his best friend because of that). And the only reason the twin brother didn’t marry the one he wanted was because they died. And in this whole scenario, the twin sister has no idea about these thoughts and feelings of his twin brother, she truly believes they are soulmates and love each other in a way they can’t be apart, she fully believes in everything her twin brother has said about them being one soul in two bodies etc etc.

The years pass, they carry on with their affair, the twin brother withholds and uses sex/affection as punishment/reward against his twin sister, establishes a dynamic where it must be always the twin sister coming to him, he will never do the same, actually gets off on the idea of his twin sister being so irresistibly attracted to him that she can’t take no for an answer and liked the power play this gives him. The twin brother was also frequently physically abusive towards the twin sisters, which she was used to and managed to diffuse the situation by turning the slaps she received into them having sex. Later in the story, when both twins have committed horrible horrible crimes for each other, with the twin sister going as far as almost killing a child to protect the twin brother, among other terrible stuff, the twin sister starts to show some personal growth after going through some hard times and becoming disabled. The twin brother insults the twin sister physically and verbally, and often actually assaults her physically by slapping her when she doesn’t agree with him or accepts doing something for him. The twin sister then finds out that the twin brother has actually lied to her, he has slept with other people many times even though he didn’t actually need it (he had other ways of making those people do his biding because of the position he holds in their social hierarchy), but he has done that anyway and lied to his twin sister about it, pretending that outside of a marriage he was forced to enter he had never been with anyone else outside his twin sister.

Are you gonna tell me this is a relationship where both parties hold equal power? Are you gonna tell me the twin sister is as much at fault as the twin brother? Because whoever says yes is absolutely lying, don’t even bother. And if you are honest with yourself and recognizes that no, you don’t think that and actually sees how the twin sister is clearly being abused, how is that different then when you reverse them to their original genders? Because I haven’t added anything there that is not present in their canon relationship. Notice I have addressed the privileges/lack of that come with their respective positions (the twin sister inheriting her house seat/ the twin brother forced into a marriage he doesn’t want). That the twin sister is often the one seeking the twin brother and not accepting a no from the twin brother. So if you can see this relationship for what it is when the genders are switched, how can you not do the same for a male victim?

Now something else to consider: There’s a big difference between toxic relationships vs abusive relationships. And a difference between a toxic person vs an abusive one. Not all toxic relationships are abusive; however, all abusive relationships can be considered toxic. In a toxic relationship, there is usually a lack of respect and a violation of boundaries. But this behavior occurs without the person or people involved even realizing they're doing it. They normalized it. They aren’t trying to control their partner.

Usually, every victim in an abusive relationship is a toxic person. Tbh, is almost impossible to survive an abusive relationship without becoming toxic yourself and engaging in toxic behavior. But that doesn’t mean the person is abusive, because a key element is missing: they aren’t intentionally doing that to exert control over the other party in the relationship.

All of this is to say: I honestly cannot understand how people have such a hard time understanding that, within the dynamics of Cersei and Jaime, she is the abuser. Mutual abuse doesn’t exist. Abuse is about an imbalance of power and control.

They are both incredible toxic people, there’s no denying that. Possessive, jealous, engaged in some dubious sexual dynamic, violent… all of this. But only one of them tries to exert control over the other. Only one of them intentionally tries to dictate how the other should behave and intentionally harm the other when they don’t conform to what they want. Only one of them displays a pattern of behaviors used to gain or maintain power and control.

This is not to say Jaime is a wonderful angel who has never done anything wrong in his life. Is just to say that, within his relationship with Cersei, Jaime is the victim. He’s just not a perfect one.

So, no, I don’t think Jaime r*ped Cersei by coercing her into sex because their pre established dynamic within their relationship is so incredibly disturbing and toxic that Jaime coming to her, asking and begging and ultimately not accepting being denied is actually something that Cersei likes, and is used as a power play where she can exert control and dominate him. No, I don’t think Jaime and Cersei are mutually abusive because this doesn’t exist and even if it did, he is not the one trying to exert control towards her.

Jaime Lannister is a toxic person. Jaime Lannister is a victim of abuse. Cersei Lannister is an abuser. Period.

[falllpoutboy]

i think the most frustrating thing about jaime/cersei shippers is that they completely, wholly and literally single-handedly missed the point of why twincest is gross and unhealthy and how celebrating it, misinterprets both jaime and cersei to a nth degree

we are told/shown that their relationship started out as confused children who mostly didnt know better. but when they're on the cusp of adulthood, cersei initiates their sexual relationship through manipulation and coercion. and its because of this coerced relationship and the circumstances that followed (jaime joining the kingsguard and taking a vow of celibacy), jaime has only been with one person in his whole life and fathers her children whilst having next to no relationship with them, meanwhile cersei got to know her fair share of various lovers and parent her children (most joffrey) as she saw fit.

i think the most heartbreaking quote regarding their twisted relationship is from a jaime pov chapter: “I don't have a wife, I have a sister" and to see these shippers in turn romanticize that line instead of them seeing the utter tragedy in a statement like that (re: see above) is mindblowing. seeing tweets like "jaime looked his best in season 1 and/or season 4" (the seasons in which he is the most devoted to cersei and coincidentally in which he looked the most clean cut and put together, just like cersei says so he can be her mirror image)

the show certainly did no favors towards showing the inherent fucked-up ness of their relationship but the canon facts i listed are still the same in that canon too. and i think the overwhelmingly negative reaction to their critically panned ending (jaime leaving somebody who loves him for being wholly himself for cersei, who only saw herself in him and what he can do for her and dying without facing the true repercussions of her actions) also speaks for itself.

idk how to end this but like. its just crazy for me to see this for like 4 years now

[xgoddessoffandomsx]

I hope Max and Charlie know y'all nasties ship Ethan and Aiden and think y'all are disgusting

[thestory812]

“Die in the arms of the woman I love”

So many people reference that line as the “ultimate foreshadowing” and some sort of proof that the Jaime Cersei ending was always the only option and he could never want another. It was purposely phrased as “the woman I love” not in Cersei’s arms for a reason. Add that it was also placed in close proximity to the Tarthgasm scene, and it’s clear it was made to paint him as someone who took love very seriously and to make the audience question what that would look like in the end. I’ve had enough of the way show defenders take every line to cement how perfect and planned the ending was and yet dismiss another hundred quotes that went nowhere.

Btw. Having the visual of J/C being found in each other’s arms was specifically done to allow poor Tyrion to sob over them to add to Dinklage’s Emmy reel.

[emily-in-crisis]

NOTHING is more disheartening, gut-wrenching, stomach CHURNING than seeing a post of your favorite fictional siblings, your comfort sibs if you will and then when you're just about to like/rp you realize it's tagged as shipcest or some whack ass sh*t. this hellsite is just tew much for me sometimes

[just-antithings]

A 17 yr old and 18 yr old dating has a problematic age gap. To remove any possible problematicisms in a ship, they must be born on the same year, same month, and same day and preferably from the same mother

twincest ftw

[storytellering]

but ARE YOU DATING YOUR BROTHER???????

I’m an only child. And even if I wasn’t, unlike certain weirdos, I can tell reality from fiction apart, so I highly doubt that would ever even slightly cross my mind 🤷

[norringtondeservestheworld]

"It's bloody hot in here"

We are in 2024 and I still see (stupid) people claiming that Braime shouldn't have happened because it was "awkward" and they use as argument Jaime saying to Brienne "It's bloody hot in here" making memes of how Jaime looks like a stupid teenager at the first crush and how his flirting sucks.

But the thing is that.. his flirting IS SUPPOSED to sucks. Jaime Lannister is a 40+ years old man who has been all his life in an abusive and incestual relationship with his sister who manipulated him since they were kids and used sex to have something from him in return and because of that he never slept with another woman because he never felt attraction for another woman.. until now. Brienne is the first woman he sexually and romantically desired outside his sister so IT'S HIS FIRST TIME TRYING TO SEDUCE A WOMAN.

Just look at him. The awkward smile, the eyes constantly moving. HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING. HE IS SO NERVOUS HE CAN'T EVEN UNDRESS HIMSELF.

And Brienne is as awkward as him. She is a virgin who has been mocked because of her appearance since ever, she wasn't estethically attractive and she knew. She never knew what it meant being courted or desired because she thought this day for her wouldn't come. So after Jaime patethic way of flirting she initially doesn't understand what the fuck is going on and gets confused, until she realized what is happening and all you can see is her completely disbelief.

The scene is supposed to be awkward because Jaime and Brienne are feeling awkward. Because it's their first time. Because they are getting vulnerable to someone who they disliked at first, but that now they love. Because they are living something that they never thought it would happen to them.

Just another prove of how Nikolaj Coster Waldau and Gwendoline Christie always understood their characters. While these people never did.

BONUS Jaime's face when he realized it's finally happening MY GOD I CAN'T WITH THESE TWO-

[unknown-terrain]

i've recently seen someone who ships braime on twitter say they're unpopular and in fact twincest is one the couples that goes viral the most on it, and i'm really in confusion, 'cause the only times i've seen twincest going viral is in correlation to a hotd ship or storyline, idk, it's too delulu to me thinking j/c are anywhere near as popular as braime.

Say what? I don't even do Twitter and I can tell you that's total BS. J/C are definitely not a beloved popular ship the way J/B is. What they are is a very well known twincest ship from a popular book series/show and for that reason they tend to go viral as a joke/when they're being mocked not because people seriously support that relationship. Similar to what you mentioned…when HOTD was airing I saw a bunch of reposted anti J/C tweets here on tumblr with tens of thousands of likes. So yes I don't doubt they go viral but that doesn't mean they're a well loved ship.

[chrkrose]

I wonder when asoiaf subreddit will learn reading comprehension. 4 years later and they still think Jaime’s ending will be the same ending his Walmart version got. It’s right there in the text Jaime hoping Cersei is DEAD by the time he returns to KL. Not because he’s enraged or anything, he just doesn’t want to deal with the inconvenience. He couldn’t be more indifferent towards her, and they are all still babbling “aLL rOaDs lEaD bAcK tO cErSei” like learn how to read Jesus Christ.

[falllpoutboy]

this idiot twincest shipper finally said the quiet part outloud: they really are only fans of cersei and whoever is in her vicinity who can do what she wants/needs. and sometimes, that just so happens to be jaime 🙃

[just-antithings]

It's official, antis are now attacking published authors.

Oh this has been happening for a while, mainly within booktwt circles (booktok too but I haven't personally seen much of it and can't name off the top of my head drama I've seen there).

Some instances have gotten big enough to end up being noticed outside book twitter (it's almost always YA booktwt too...) like when some YA authors bashed their old English teachers for making them read "problematic" classics, or when Becky Albertalli got harassed so much, she came out as bi (and then get attacked again by an ex-Buzzfeed youtuber that said Albertalli had still been privileged for "appearing straight" and insinuating closeted queer people are inherently in a privileged position compared to out queer people). Then there were the booktubers and bookstagammers harassing Leigh Bardugo about writing a rape scene in her first adult book Ninth House, to the point that Bardugo felt the need to talk about her past trauma. One booktuber I've seen apologized in a later video, though based on some of her later videos, I have doubts she's trying to change /that/ much.

I'm not sure if the other anon is talking about Nyla K when mentioning the author who got their books taken down from Amazon (it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened to plenty of other authors), but Nyla K has been called pedophilic, primarily because of their m/m/m stepcest/twincest (twin teens and their stepdad, pretty sure) book, where the twins are underage (17? I think?). The booktuber I mentioned above called her writing "pedo incest" in passing, as a "gotcha" because Nyla K is friends with another author said booktuber was ranting about.

Then there was what happened with Ava Reid's book Juniper & Thorn, her twt thread saying it almost didn't get published, due to some of the dark topics in the /gothic horror/ book.

And all the authors I've mentioned other than Nyla K are traditionally published. While many publishing houses have their own drama and issues, harassment like the above isn't going to hurt as badly as if they'd been self-published. Nyla K having their books removed from Amazon has likely hurt their earnings, and while it looks like they've leaned into it (their IG last I checked says "banned & proud"), it's still a fight they shouldn't have to fight, just because the neopuritans decided their books shouldn't exist.

And in the case of the publisher first thinking Reid's book was "too dark", I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have worried about that if Reid was a man. It's been said over and over, but all of this backlash from antis is hurting minorities the most.

as it always does and always will

also they’ve been attacking neil gaiman for a good while now