#ask: mahfiruze hatice hatun

[ottomanladies]

Hello! I’m so happy to see you’re back.

I believe Gevherhan was Ahmed's first daughter for several reasons:

Considering how fond Ahmed was of his great-aunt Gevherhan, it's likely that he named his first daughter after her. This makes it plausible that Gevherhan was the eldest daughter, born in March 1605, or even before Osman. If this is the case, she would have been old enough to give birth to her first child by 1620. While we could push her birthdate a little later, there is no evidence of any other baby born in 1605 besides those in March.

If Gevherhan was indeed the daughter born in 1605 or before Osman (based on her wedding date and the birth of her first child, she must have been), this would mean that neither Kösem nor Mahfiruz could be her mother.

It's also possible that Gevherhan was born around this time, but her mother may have died during childbirth or shortly after. In this scenario, she might have been given to Mahfiruz, as the first consort, to raise, which could explain why people assumed she was Osman's full sister, since they appeared to share the same mother. Of course, it's possible that Gevherhan was born in 1605, but not in March, and the daughter born in March was one of the daughters who died young. If that’s the case, then Gevherhan could indeed be Mahfiruz’s daughter.

Lastly, if Mahfiruz was Gevherhan's mother, it's intriguing that Ahmed made Kösem the Haseki Sultan so early, despite already having two children with Mahfiruz.

Also, are you planning to continue with the “(OTTOMAN) WOMEN’S HISTORY MEME”? I’ve really missed your gifts—they’re so beautiful.

Hi, thank you very much! Since I'm currently working on this, my interest has rekindled.

I completely agree with you and to tell you the truth, I also thought that maybe she could have been given to Mahfiruz to be raised (especially if, at the time, she was the only mother in the harem).

Mmh unfortunately I don't find making gifs fun anymore and I also deleted everything related to it... I think I may still have a gifset in my drafts, though, if you would like to see it.

[gulnarsultan]

》 Halime Altunşah Sultan 《

Real name : Altunşah (It is thought that her first name was Altunşah. She was given the name Halime after she was taken to the palace.)

Date and place of birth: 1572 / Caucasus

Date and place of death: 1642

Origin: Abkhaz nobleman belongs to the Lakerbe Dynasty.

Her brothers: Pervan Mirza, Astamur Mirza, Misost Mirza

Sister: Fatma Hatun, Zamane Hatun, Feride Hatun.( Feride Hatun is the mother of Mahfiruz Sultan.)

Hsband : 3 Mehmed

Marriage date : 1586

Children:

Şehzade Mahmud

1 Mustapha

Hatice Sultan

Gevherhan Sultan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The palace was taken by Servezad Kalfa. Halime Sultan was not liked by Safiye Sultan because she was Caucasian. There is no information about how he got along with his other rivals (3 Mehmed's wives). She was not a witch as shown in the movie. He caused the execution of his son, Şehzade Mahmud (After the letter from the astrologer, which he was waiting for information about his son's ascension to the throne, passed into the hands of Valide Safiye Sultan and in addition, After Şehzade Mahmud asked his father for an army to suppress the rebellion, Mehmed III listened to his mother Safiye Sultan and had her son executed. ) and she played a great role in the murder of 2 Osman.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gerçek adı: Altunşah (İlk adının Altunşah olduğu sanılmaktadır. Saraya alındıktan sonra Halime adını almıştır.)

Doğum tarihi ve yeri: 1572 / Kafkasya

Ölüm tarihi ve yeri: 1642

Menşei: Abhaz asilzadesi Lakerbe Hanedanlığına aittir.

Erkek kardeşleri: Pervan Mirza, Astamur Mirza, Misost Mirza

Kız kardeşleri: Fatma Hatun, Zamane Hatun, Feride Hatun.( Feride Hatun, Mahfiruz Sultan'ın annesidir.)

Eşi: 3 Mehmed

Evlilik tarihi : 1586

Çocuklar:

Şehzade Mahmud

1 Mustafa

Hatice Sultan

Gevherhan Sultan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Saraya Servezad Kalfa tarafından alındı. Halime Sultan, Kafkasyalı olduğu için Safiye Sultan tarafından sevilmemiştir. Diğer rakipleriyle (3 Mehmed'in eşleri) nasıl geçindiği hakkında bilgi yoktur. Filmde gösterildiği gibi bir cadı değildi. Oğlu Şehzade Mahmud'un infazına sebep oldu (Oğlunun tahta geçtiğine dair bilgi beklediği müneccimden gelen mektubun Valide Safiye Sultan'ın eline geçmesinden ve ayrıca Şehzade Mahmud isyanları bastırmak için babasından ordu istemesinden sonra 3 Mehmed annesi Safiye Sultanı dinleyerek oğlunu idam ettirmiştir. ) ve 2 Osman'ın öldürülmesinde büyük rol oynadı.

The picture is representative. Resim temsilidir

[ottomanladies]

How did concubines negotiate contact with non-eunuch men in & around the harem? I assume princes could interact with their moms, sisters, and other female blood relatives. Yet Mehmed III impregnating a servant while still a prince & Kosem caring for Osman suggests they weren’t 100% isolated from non-sultan men. How was this divide between princes, their “stepmoms” & other non-blood related women in the harem managed?

Royal children and royal consorts belong to the same family even if there is not a blood relation between them. This is something we'll see later, maybe influenced by European practices, but we have princes call their fathers' consorts "first mother" "second mother" "third mother" according to the women's ranks. So, these people — consorts and children — certainly had a relationship, especially after the practice of the prince governorate lapses and princes live in the harem before being secluded in the kafes.

Before the reign of Süleyman I, princes as young as 10/11 were sent to provinces away from Istanbul to learn how to rule. It's with him that for the first time actual adult princes live in the harem: Mustafa left Istanbul for Manisa at the age of 18, Mehmed was even older— 21 years old. In any case, princes weren't barred from talking to their fathers' consorts. There's actually a letter of Hürrem's in which she asks her husband to send her hello to Mustafa:

“If you send greetings to Sultan Mustafa, send him my note too.” Apparently she had included a separate letter to Suleyman’s eldest son in the scroll cylinder that carried her own to the sultan. The future would cloud Roxelana’s relations with Mustafa and his mother Mahidevran, but in 1526 there appeared to be harmony, or at least an effort on Roxelana’s part to keep up communication. — Peirce, Empress of the East: How a European Slave Girl Became Queen of the Ottoman Empire

Specifically to the examples you've mentioned:

the slave Mehmed III impregnated was part of Nurbanu's retinue, which means that he probably met her whenever he visited his grandmother (which royal grandchildren routinely did— daily in the XIX century, supposedly it was the same in the XVI century)

Osman was Kösem's step-son. Seeing as Mehmed was only a couple of months younger and they had therefore the same tutor, they could not not have a relationship of some sort. I also imagine that the children used to play together when they were little and the only sons of Ahmed I. The Venetian ambassador's remark that she was not to converse with him or his younger brother anymore does not mean that they wouldn't see each other anymore but that they weren't supposed to spend a lot of time together. Or alone. As Osman was motherless, he was "defenceless" because he didn't have anyone to look after his own interests; if Mahfiruze had been alive at the time, Kösem wouldn't have certainly taken him out for carriage rides with her children. They would have still seen each other on a daily basis, maybe for lessons or because Kösem would visit Mahfiruze (for tea, for example) but it wouldn’t have been that dangerous (from Ahmed I’s point of view, at least) because Kösem wouldn’t have tried to lobby the young prince

Hell, I'll even include Ahmed and Kösem who, according to Valier, met each other when the prince used to visit his own mother.

These things could happen, though it wasn't certainly a habit and it was forbidden to entertain an intimate relationship with a woman belonging to the sultan's harem, it doesn't matter her rank.

In the case of step-mothers and step-children though it was perfectly normal for them to have some sort of relationship. I mean, motherless children were entrusted to other consorts by the sultans themselves. In the XIX century, princes would routinely visit their fathers’ consorts on religious festivities and consorts with no children would even have favourites among the royal children: Mahmud II’s consort Tiryâl Hanımefendi was very close to the then-prince Abdülaziz, so much so that when he became sultan, she was considered a sort of second valide sultan. It’s true we’re much later in Ottoman history but in this case, Abdülaziz had a living mother. 

I think the family dynamics of the Ottoman dynasty are very interesting.

[ottomanladies]

hey! have u ever look on Baron Mollad"s portrait of Sultan Osmans enthronement ceremony where he also portrayed Mahfiruze on the left side of sultan Osman? Isnt it surprising and shocking as we know Mahfiruze had no part in ruling of her son because she was dead by that time? The most shocking thing is he was contemporary person. whats your opinion about this? And was Mahfiruze a sultan during ahmed"s tenure?

So, the painting is by an anonymous artist. Baron Mollard was the Austrian ambassador. According to Sotheby's, which sold the portrait, "[t]his painting is presented to us through the memory of the artist’s own personal observations. He must have been accompanying Ambassador Mollard, whose presence at the ceremony is confirmed by the renowned Ottoman historian Von Hammer"

Baron Mollard is the man on the left, below Mahfiruz, and wearing distinctively European clothes.

Sotheby's also says that the painting was actually made during Murad IV's reign and that it was based on the artist's recollections of the event.

It is definitely a strange painting because that's not how sultans were "crowned". The valide sultan was not present, "normal" subjects were not present. It was done inside Topkapi Palace... unless we're talking about the sword girdling ceremony here but it's still something in which the valide didn't participate so I don't understand how he could have seen her (other than the fact that she was probably dead; I mean, multiple ambassadors call him an orphan...).

I would love to hear Tezcan's opinion on this painting since he studied Osman II's reign pretty extensively.

There is no indication that Mahfiruze was accorded the title of sultan during Ahmed’s reign.

[ottomanladies]

hi, ¿why do you think sultan Ahmed I decided to have more children with mahfiruz, maybe he had feeling for her or it was a customs of the harem, how was their relationship? (Sorry with my grammar, English is not my first language ^ - ^)

Don't worry about your English, it's very good!!

I don't know if Ahmed had particular feelings for Mahfiruz but if she was the concubine beaten up for offending Kösem (which I doubt because that woman seems to have been of low rank), the Venetian ambassador said that in the end, Ahmed had her treated because of the old love that there had been between them.

"And although it happened, as the very illustrious Bailo wrote a while ago, that another woman irritated the queen for I do not know what, he [Ahmed I], transported by his affection for her [Kösem], struck her with a bat but - regretting it - he ordered her to be very well taken care of, and that everyone keep silence about the accident, His Majesty's old love trumping his new disdain."

In any case, his father had already shattered conventions when both Halime and Handan had more than one son even though they weren't hasekis. Of course, if a sultan goes back to the same consort over and over, one would think there was some affection between them; Ahmed was in a great hurry to father children so having a larger pool of potential mothers would have made more sense. Ottaviano Bon, though, said in 1609 that Ahmed had children with three women: with Kösem he certainly had a bond of affection... maybe with Mahfiruz too? The third woman may have been a one-time mother, I don't know. Since Kösem dominated Ahmed I's reign, especially after Mahfiruz's death, I don't think that he had another beloved consort. All primary sources only talk about Kösem.

I probably blabbed too much but the thing is, unfortunately, we do not have anything about Ahmed and Mahfiruz's relationship.

[ottomanladies]

Can u imagine that Mahfiruz and Kösem were older than Ahmed? I mean it was necessary to immedatelly produce heirs, so it would be logical to gave Ahmed a little bit older (15-16 year old) girls who would be able to carry a pregnancy without complications and gave birth to healthy children. We know very few exact birth dates I know, but saying Mahfiruz and Kösem were the same age or younger than Ahmed makes no sense for me. Especially if Kösem already was Handan's servant, when Ahmed was a princ

Children were also employed as servants of high-ranking consorts/valide sultans (of course well-trained children and not those who had been just acquired) but your hypothesis is quite interesting. unfortunately, for now, we cannot prove it :(

The thing is, I don’t think they were particularly worried that concubines would die or miscarry. Their supply was basically infinite; if one died, they would just present the sultan another. It is true, however, that 13/14yos were not exactly the best candidates for childbearing. However, this doesn’t explain why Turhan Hatice was particularly young too when she gave birth to Mehmed IV.

I don’t know. For now I don't have a particular stance on this topic.

[ottomanladies]

Hello, since some time already I've been trying to find more information about Ahmed's concubine Mahfiruz Hatun and I couldn't help, but wonder when or how she died. Somewhere I read she died during Ahmed's reign probably by sickness or in childbed and on another page I read the opposite and that she lived until her son became sultan. Also another confusing topic about her for me is who of Ahmed's children she is the mother of. Why are there so less informations about her?

I'll start off by answering your last question: there is so little information about her because she was overshadowed by Kösem, who was haseki sultan. If you look at other valide sultans who had not been haseki sultans, you see that about both Handan and Halime there is little information (in their case, they had been overshadowed by Safiye).

I have talked about her so many times so far but I have decided to put everything I was able to find in this answer so as to dispel any other questions. This is going to be long but I hope clear enough.

About Mahfiruze's fate, there are different schools of thought:

Peirce says that she was probably beaten and exiled for speaking against or offending Kösem, therefore she was alive when Osman II took the throne but for some reason was not called back to Topkapi to be valide sultan, and died in 1620.

Uluçay, Sakaoğlu and Öztuna say that she was alive when Osman II took the throne and that she was valide sultan for two years

Baki Tezcan says she died in 1610 at last (I believe a couple of years later, as I'll explain shortly)

Her name

Baki Tezcan says that her name "was probably Mahfiruz": "Although one comes across this name in quite a number of modern sources, its earliest appearance, as far as I have been able to determine, is in the chronicle of Nai'ma, who was not a contemporary" (The debut of Kösem Sultan's political career)

Öztuna calls her "Hadîce Mâh-Fîrûz(e)" and Sakaoğlu says she was variously called "Mahirûze, Hatice Mahfirûze, Mahfirûze, Mahfirûz, Mah-ı Feyrûz". Ahmed Refik refers to her as "Hadice Mahfiruz" but, as Tezcan says, "his source is not clear".

Her origins

Frequently it is said that Mahfiruz was Greek and that she taught Osman Greek. Tezcan has been able to determine that the source of this claim is not a work of historiography but a novel: Histoire d'Osman premier du nom, XIXe empereur des turcs, et de l'impératrice Aphendina Ashada by Madeleine-Angélique de Gomez published in 1743. Apparently it wasn't the only novel she wrote about the Ottomans or the Safavids.

Therefore even her origins are disputed and unsure. She may have been Greek nonetheless but Madeleine-Angélique de Gomez's novel cannot be use as the basis of this claim.

Her children

Osman II is clearly the only child we're absolutely sure was hers.

Öztuna lists other children: Şehzade Bâyezîd, Şehzade Süleymân, and Şehzade Hüseyn. Those who include Mehmed too in the list of her children nonchalantly forget that Osman was born in November 1604 and Mehmed in March 1605. Therefore Mehmed cannot be her son (it's Kösem's but people just won't accept it).

Cristoforo Valier said - between 1612 and 1615 - that Ahmed I had four sons: two with the sultana alive and two with the sultana who had died. Valier died on 15 July 1615 while returning to Venice so he had left Istanbul a little earlier, I assume. He doesn't say how long has Osman II's mother been dead though.

Tezcan thinks that Gevherhan Sultan was Osman's full-blooded sister because he bases his claims off Pietro della Valle, who says:

"Il giorno seguente alla morte di Nasuh, fu subito assunto al carico di primo visir Muhammed bascià, genero egli ancora del Gran Signore, cioè marito della prima figliuola, che è sorella di madre del principe primogenito..." // "The day after Nasuh's death, Mehmed Pasha was appointed to the office of Grand Vizier, he too the Gran Signore's son-in-law, that is the husband of his eldest daughter, who is the eldest prince's full sister..."

The Grand Vizier della Valle is talking about is Öküz Mehmed Paşa, the husband of Gevherhan Sultan. This bit is the reason why Börekçi too says that Gevherhan was the eldest of Ahmed's daughters.

Curiously, Pietro della Valle's is the oldest work that mentions Kösem by name. For this reason, I guess, he is held in high consideration by both Tezcan and Börekçi.

About the other princes, it may be that Süleymân or Bayezid as well were Osman's brothers. Süleymân was, in my opinion, not Murad IV's full brother because he's the first - with Bayezid - that he executes. That he first executed Bayezid (and Süleymân) means that he considered them the most dangerous. Why? Because they weren't his mother's sons and they could have been turned against him.

Bayezid is believed by Finkel to have been Osman's brother:

In a departure from recent practice, Murad had waited until he was home from his various campaigns before despatching his brothers: Bayezid and Süleyman – half-brothers to Murad and full brothers to Osman II – had met their end at the time of the celebrations marking the Yerevan campaign of 1635 [...] As Osman’s full brother Bayezid could be considered the rightful heir in Murad’s place. — Osman's Dream: The History of the Ottoman Empire

Let's leave aside the claim that Bayezid could have been considered Osman's heir because as we all know, and as I am sure Finkel knows too, it is not Mahfiruze's blood that dictates the succession but Ahmed I's. Aside from that, I agree with her. We can't be sure that Süleymân and Bayezid were Osman's brothers (I think Bayezid has more chances to be), but Süleymân was definitely - in my opinion - Murad's half-brother.

The only problem with this is that Süleymân was born in 1615 (according to Öztuna), late in Ahmed's reign and too late according to the European ambassador's claims that Osman's mother had died around 1610 (maybe 1612 at the latest).

Which brings us to our next point in Mahfiruze's life:

Her death

As I have said, European ambassadors were certain that Ahmed had as consorts "the living sultana and the sultana who died".

the English ambassador George Sandys, who wrote presumably in 1610, or around this time, said about this:

"this also hath married his concubine, the mother of his yonger sonne, (she being dead by whom he had the eldest) who with all the practices of a politicke stepdame endevours to settle the succession on her owne...”

This bit not only would confirm that Ahmed has married Kösem at some point in his reign but that Mahfiruze died pretty early in his reign.

Cristoforo Valier, between 1612 and 1615 (when he died), said that Ahmed had four sons: "two from the sultana who died and two from the one alive"

Pietro della Valle too said that Osman's mother had died when he wrote about Osman II's accession to the throne:

"Othman figliuolo primogenito di Sultan Ahmed, ma non figliuolo della sultana Chiosemè vivente." // "Osman, Sultan Ahmed's firstborn son, but not son of the living sultana Kösem"

The French ambassador, Achille de Harlay, writing on Osman II's accession, said the same thing:

"non le fils de la sultane vivante mais l'ainé nommé Osman, orfelin de sa mère des il y a dix ans" // "not the son of the living sultana but the eldest named Osman, who has been motherless for ten years"

De Harlay had reported that Osman's mother was dead even earlier:

That Osman’s mother is dead is also stated in a relation on the life and death of Nasuh Pasha (d. 1614), written sometime after Nasuh’s execution in 1614 and sent by the same ambassador on March 5, 1616 — Searching for Osman

Then we have the second school of thought: Mahfiruze was in fact alive when Osman became sultan and died in 1620. This is usually said by Turkish historians (is it because they don't check Italian sources? Who knows but I wouldn't blame them tbh, there is literally nothing in common between Turkish and Italian):

Öztuna claims that Mahfiruze was valide sultan for two years, when she died on 26 October 1620. As he doesn't source his claims, we can only speculate who his sources are, but it's probably Uluçay who says the same thing:

"But these happy days did not last long. She died in the third year of her son's reign in 1620, and was buried in Eyüp Sultan Mosque"

Even a very recent work of historiography like Aylin Görgün-Baran's essay titled "A Woman Leader in Ottoman History: Kösem Sultan (1589-1651)" reiterates the same thing:

"By the way, the reign of Osman II had caused Kösem Sultan to take action and she had developed strategies to get on with Mahfiruz Sultan and Osman II and established relationships with them for her son Murat IV. She had sent gifts both to Mahfiruz Sultan and Osman II and given messages to them that she had taken their side."

Apart from the fact that I don't believe that Kösem was working to put Murad on the throne (how was she supposed to know that Osman II would be childless and deposed and killed? Please), this claim is not sourced.

She also said that Mahfiruz had died in 1621, in the same year in which Osman had executed Mehmed.

Back to Uluçay, he bases his claims on the chronogram on Mahfiruz's grave but, as Tezcan argues, that chronogram only means that the grave was built in 1618, not that she had died in that year.

The document that M. Cağatay Uluçay, Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları, Ankara, Türk Tarihi Kurumu, 1980, p. 48, n. 1, cites as evidence for the date of her death specifies her burial place but does not seem to suggest that she died in the year that the document is dated. Peirce states that the document cited by Uluçay is "not to be found in the Topkapi Palace Museum Archives under the number he cites" — The debut of Kösem Sultan's political career

That Osman built a grave for his mother right after he became sultan may mean that he wanted to honour her with a better mausoleum. Also, who builds a grave for someone who is not dead yet and is also fairly young? I mean if Kösem was in her late twenties when Ahmed I died, Mahfiruze must have been around the same age.

Finally, we have Peirce's theory: Mahfiruze was alive but had been exiled during Ahmed I's reign and, for some reason, her son did not call her back to Topkapi when he became sultan.

Osman's mother, Mahfiruz, was alive when her son was finally enthroned in 1618 after the deposition of the incompetent Mustafa. However, contrary to the assumptions of modern accounts, she did not live in the imperial palace during Osman's reign nor did she act as valide sultan (privy purse registers from Osman's reign list no valide sultan). Mahfiruz died in 1620, two years after her son's accession, and was buried in the large sanctuary of Eyüb. From the middle of 1620, Osman's governess, the daye khatun, began to receive an extraordinarily large stipend (one thousand aspers a day rather than her usual two hundred aspers), an indication that she was now the official stand-in for the valide sultan. What seems likely is that Mahfiruz fell into disfavor, was banished from the palace at some point before Osman's accession, and never recovered her status as a royal concubine. Banishment in disgrace would explain both Mahfiruz's absence from the palace and her burial in the popular shrine of Eyüb rather than in her husband's tomb. The Venetian ambassador Contarini reported in 1612 that the sultan had had a beating administered to a woman who had irritated Kösem; perhaps this woman was Mahfiruz. Mahfiruz's banishment would have removed a serious obstacle to Kösem's efforts to save Mustafa from execution, since the party of Osman had the greatest stake in the survival of the traditional system of succession. — The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire

Honestly, I don't understand why she seems to think that Mahfiruze was alive - like Uluçay says - but then doesn't agree with his sources... strange.

So this is what we know about Mahfiruze. I have left out claims that she was related to Halime (?) or that the manager of the harem was her sister (?) or that she was related to Mahidevran as well (?) because I could not even find these things in books. I'm pretty sure it's someone's fantasy just going around the internet and for some reason people believed it.

I hope I did not forget anything!!

[ottomanladies]

Hi, first off I love your blog! Secondly, I was wondering if in any of your research on ottoman ladies if you might know what the name "Mahfiruz" means, I think it's Persian and has something to do with the moon but I cannot find the origin anywhere.

Hi! Thank you!

Yes, it’s Persian. Mah- means “moon” and -firuz means “blissful”, “auspicious”, “victorious” , though I have seen people translate it as “favourite of the moon” 

Interesting (imo) bit: firuze means “turquoise”, so Mahfiruz and Mahfiruze have different meanings 

[ottomanladies]

Were Mahfiruze and Mahidevran or Mahfiruze and Halime related?

Nope. never read of this in any book tbh

[ottomanladies]

Is it Mahfiruz or Mahfiruze?

It’s the same, her name has been written in a number of ways. I personally like Mahfiruze more, it sounds sweeter in my opinion.

[ottomanladies]

Mahfiruze Hatice Sultan + children

At the moment there is no conclusive study on the identity of her children, except for Osman of course. The others could have been:

Gevherhan Sultan

Şehzade Bayezid at the latest

Caroline Finkel thinks Şehzade Süleyman was Osman II and Bayezid’s younger brother

There is no way to know if any of Ahmed I’s children that died in infancy were also Mahfiruze’s.

[ottomanladies]

Do you think Kösem and Mahfiruze were both born in 1590 like Ahmed i mean Kösem was pretty young (either fourteen or fifteen) so i’m guessing maybe Mahfiruze was too unless she was thirteen when she arrived in the palace.

I think they were both around his age.

[ottomanladies]

Is Kösem the only Greek concubine in the Ottoman Empire? If there are more could you list them I know Mahfiruze was said to have been Greek.

Venetian ambassadors say that Murad IV’s haseki Ayşe was Greek like Kösem.  Emetullah Rabia Gülnüş was Greek as well.

About Mahfiruze… the source of this claim is not a work of historiography but rather a French work of fiction about Osman II’s life.

Other consorts who were or may have been Greek:

Asporça Hatun, consort of Orhan Bey

Theodora Kantakuzenos, consort of Orhan Bey

Gülçiçek Hatun, consort of Murad I

Çiçek Hatun, consort of Mehmed II

Nurbanu Sultan, consort of Selim II, may have been of Greek origins though living in Venetian territory

[ottomanladies]

you ask that you didn´t found anybody who ascribes handzade to another mother. I asked you because(I found , How I said before on internet pages. that according venedic Ambassador is handzade discribed like daughter mafiruze. But I´m with you with sehzade mehmed- I cannot understand, why pierce thought that mehmed was mahfiruze´s son. I every document from ambassadors is mehmed discribed like son kosem. They wrote: that afther what sultan osman II let it bring bloody head his mother to the old

palace kosem it collapsed she screem and cried together and her the sadness was uncomfortable. next wrote that afther what mehmed was killed by osman want to let killed his young brother murad. But he let him lived because murad he was no threat to him in his young age. Kosem was in 1622 osman´s enimi like halime. kosem try get his son murad on throne, and she let married her daughter handzade. In every dicribe mehmed performs stepbrother osman and mehmed is about fourth manth later. I can understand why pierce said that mehmed is mahfiruze´s son. mehmed is always discribe like stepbrother osman, he was born afther fourth months later, afther whatosman let killed his brother next should be on the line mehmed young brother murad. afther death his son kosem want depose osman and install her son. than another proof that mehmed is son kosem is that she let married her daughter especial ayse to she secured her son mehmed the throne. there are so many fact why mehmed is kosem son. even by Venetian ambassadors is mehmed discribe like son kosem. I don´t belived that mehmed is son mahfiruze. and than was said that mahfiruze had 4 sons these are discribed like osman, beyazid, huseyin, and accordind someone historians and venedic ambassadors sulejman. I never found any proof that mehmed is son mahfiruze. I think that pierce did mystake in translate. let pierce say what she wants. I´m not historians but accorind my research I don´t belive that mehmed is son mahfiruze!!!

Wait, wait, wait.

There’s a lot of confusion here.

Venetian ambassadors almost never mention names, especially of princesses. They call them “sultana” or “princess” or “the wife of x”. Mihrimah is never mentioned by name but as “Rustem Pasha’s wife” or “Rustem Pasha’s widow” or “the sister of the sultan” (because she was the only one).

Simone Contarini, in 1612 (before the birth of Murad, because he left Istanbul in May 1612) says: “Ha il re due figliuoli, l’uno di sette, l’altro di sei. […] Tre figliuole femmine si trova avere anco Sua Maestà alla quale nascon pure de’ figliuoli assai spesso, e per l’abbondanza delle donne, e per la gioventù, e prosperità che tiene.” I am Italian so please believe my translations: “The King has two sons, one is seven years old, the other six. His Majesty has three daughters as well, and to him sons are born very often, both for the abundancy of women and both for his youth and prosperity”

As you can see, the ambassador never names the children. (He also missed a daughter, as in 1612 the princesses were 4: Ayse, Fatma, Gevherhan and Hanzade)

Cristoforo Valier before 15 July 1615 (bc he died on that date): “Ha il Re quattro figliuoli maschi, due dalla sultana morta e due dalla vivente. […] avendo maritate due figlie l’una di sette anni e l’altra di nove nel già primo visir Nasuf e nel presente Mehemet” Translation: “The King has four sons: two by the dead sultana and two by the living one. […] he has married off two daughters, one is seven and the other nine, to the deceased Grand Vizier Nasuf and to the current [Grand Vizier] Mehmed.”

Again, the name of the daughters are not mentioned

Unfortunately we do not have the relazione of Almorò Nani, Valier’s successor, but only dispatches that are in the State Archives of Venice, so out of my reach. I wish they scanned the originals, like the Vatican has been doing but… so far it’s a no. 

I don’t trust anyone - who is not a historian - who claims to have seen Almorò Nani’s dispatches because they’re in an archive and not open to public consultation. You need a letter of recommendation from an institution - a university, for example - that explains why you’re there. You cannot just enter and start touching documents from the XVII century because you’re curious.

I don’t think anybody (with a brain) can say that Mahfiruze was Mehmed’s mother because he was born too close to Osman for that to be possible. I think Peirce thought he was the son of an unimportant concubine, hence why he was executed while Kösem’s sons were left alive. I think Tezcan has successfully demonstrated that he was, in fact, Kösem’s eldest son.

[ottomanladies]

I found picture where is mahfiruze with her sons osman, beyazid and sulejman in years 1619. it is true. In every folklore sulejman performs like son mahfiruze and not son kosem

We already know that Süleyman was not Murad IV’s full brother because he executed him first - with Bayezid in 1635 - even though he was younger than Kasim. The fact that he skipped Kasim in 1635, imo, suggests that his first goal was to eliminate his half-brothers, who could have been used against him.

And we’re almost certain that Bayezid was Osman’s younger brother because Finkel alleges that some considered him to be the real heir to Osman II... following a very contorted, and in my opinion wrong, reasoning because it is Ahmed I that determines the line of succession and not the mother but... yeah, that he was Osman II’s brother was quite a popular theory.

I don’t know what you mean by picture and by folklore, because folklore and history are not the same thing. As for Mahfiruze being alive in 1619... I really doubt it, as Contarini says already in 1615 (probably) that Osman II’s mother is dead.

[ottomanladies]

Could you chronicle a small birth certificate of Mahfiruz? I would not like to base myself on wikipedia. I only need dates and her age if it is certain when she was born, I mean the most important events and information if it is not a problem. (i'm sorry about spam about Mahfiruz but she was forgotten and I want to know more about her.)

queenisawitch said to ottomanladies: How surely Mahfiruz Hatice look like?

There is no sure information about her: no date of birth, no date of death, no place of birth, no physical description. 

If we consider that Kösem was supposed to be very young when she gave birth to her first child in 1605; it has estimated she was in her early teenage years, it is probable that Mahfiruze was the same so she could have been born around 1590, like Ahmed.

This is everything we know about her, we don’t even know who were her children with a certain degree of certainty, except for Osman, of course.

I would recommend going through my Mahfiruze tag if you’re interested in conjecture and things like that: here