#ask: sehzade mehmed (suleyman i)

[ottomanladies]

How did concubines negotiate contact with non-eunuch men in & around the harem? I assume princes could interact with their moms, sisters, and other female blood relatives. Yet Mehmed III impregnating a servant while still a prince & Kosem caring for Osman suggests they weren’t 100% isolated from non-sultan men. How was this divide between princes, their “stepmoms” & other non-blood related women in the harem managed?

Royal children and royal consorts belong to the same family even if there is not a blood relation between them. This is something we'll see later, maybe influenced by European practices, but we have princes call their fathers' consorts "first mother" "second mother" "third mother" according to the women's ranks. So, these people — consorts and children — certainly had a relationship, especially after the practice of the prince governorate lapses and princes live in the harem before being secluded in the kafes.

Before the reign of Süleyman I, princes as young as 10/11 were sent to provinces away from Istanbul to learn how to rule. It's with him that for the first time actual adult princes live in the harem: Mustafa left Istanbul for Manisa at the age of 18, Mehmed was even older— 21 years old. In any case, princes weren't barred from talking to their fathers' consorts. There's actually a letter of Hürrem's in which she asks her husband to send her hello to Mustafa:

“If you send greetings to Sultan Mustafa, send him my note too.” Apparently she had included a separate letter to Suleyman’s eldest son in the scroll cylinder that carried her own to the sultan. The future would cloud Roxelana’s relations with Mustafa and his mother Mahidevran, but in 1526 there appeared to be harmony, or at least an effort on Roxelana’s part to keep up communication. — Peirce, Empress of the East: How a European Slave Girl Became Queen of the Ottoman Empire

Specifically to the examples you've mentioned:

the slave Mehmed III impregnated was part of Nurbanu's retinue, which means that he probably met her whenever he visited his grandmother (which royal grandchildren routinely did— daily in the XIX century, supposedly it was the same in the XVI century)

Osman was Kösem's step-son. Seeing as Mehmed was only a couple of months younger and they had therefore the same tutor, they could not not have a relationship of some sort. I also imagine that the children used to play together when they were little and the only sons of Ahmed I. The Venetian ambassador's remark that she was not to converse with him or his younger brother anymore does not mean that they wouldn't see each other anymore but that they weren't supposed to spend a lot of time together. Or alone. As Osman was motherless, he was "defenceless" because he didn't have anyone to look after his own interests; if Mahfiruze had been alive at the time, Kösem wouldn't have certainly taken him out for carriage rides with her children. They would have still seen each other on a daily basis, maybe for lessons or because Kösem would visit Mahfiruze (for tea, for example) but it wouldn’t have been that dangerous (from Ahmed I’s point of view, at least) because Kösem wouldn’t have tried to lobby the young prince

Hell, I'll even include Ahmed and Kösem who, according to Valier, met each other when the prince used to visit his own mother.

These things could happen, though it wasn't certainly a habit and it was forbidden to entertain an intimate relationship with a woman belonging to the sultan's harem, it doesn't matter her rank.

In the case of step-mothers and step-children though it was perfectly normal for them to have some sort of relationship. I mean, motherless children were entrusted to other consorts by the sultans themselves. In the XIX century, princes would routinely visit their fathers’ consorts on religious festivities and consorts with no children would even have favourites among the royal children: Mahmud II’s consort Tiryâl Hanımefendi was very close to the then-prince Abdülaziz, so much so that when he became sultan, she was considered a sort of second valide sultan. It’s true we’re much later in Ottoman history but in this case, Abdülaziz had a living mother. 

I think the family dynamics of the Ottoman dynasty are very interesting.

[fauzhee10069]

The four Haseki and their relationship with beloved Mothers-in-Law

We'll come closer to the end of Kösem sultan and her magnificent story :,(. Now let me present these four ambitious hasekis in different time but lived below the same sky (don’t ask me why I included Ayşe, just keep reading it! ;-) and why I don’t include Hürrem vs Valide Ayşe Hafsa because mainly I forgot their story XP). Hürrem started this "opposing your mother-in-law" continued with Nurbanu to Turhan sultan (only in MY and MYK dear, not historically), but how their stories differ? Let's see...:

Afife Nurbanu Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was Hürrem sultan, Hürrem wanted her to be a smart but obedient daughter-in-law, she became a gozde (favorite) to sehzade Selim (later Selim II). Iirc, Nurbanu's conflict with Hürrem started when Hürrem refused to protect & defend her after she had fight with Hurichihan (Hatice sultan's daughter) & caused her death. Afraid to the consequence of her deed, she threatened Hürrem to show her letter about ordering Nurbanu to kill Suleyman I's other gozde, Nazenin hatun, from this onwards their conflict began. Other factor that driven Nurbanu is her ambition to support Selim to be the successor, next sultan after Suleyman I, especially after she found that Hürrem was supporting her other son, sehzade Bayezid. Her conflict with Hürrem mainly to prevent and foiled her to support Beyazid. Even after Hurrem's death, Nurbanu was still occupied with Beyazid's remaining supporters (including Mihrimah & Rustem->though Rustem would betray later via Gracia Mendes' seduction (LOL)).

Mahpeyker Kösem Sultan:

Her actual mother-in-law was Handan sultan, but her nemesis (in the show) was Safiye sultan, Handan's mother-in-law & the grandmother of Kosem's spouse Ahmed I. Similar with Hürrem, Safiye intended to present Kösem to Ahmed and use her to influence & control his power. Their conflict started when Safiye, unable to control Kösem anymore, decided to kill her father. Feeling betrayed, Kösem decided to avenge her father's death (while being a heroine too) by leading Safiye's daughter, Fahriye sultan to her death. Safiye repaid it with Yasemin hatun (Kösem's sister)'s death and Kösem paid it back with Iskender/sehzade Yahya (Safiye's missing son)'s death. Also Kösem being heroine wanted to protect Ahmed and the state from her, especially when Safiye did the coup d'etat, causing chaos in the palace. Not long after, Ahmed died, leaving Kösem with her little children fighting Safiye (and later Halime) alone.

Ayşe Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was Kösem sultan and her spouse was sultan Murad IV. Like Hürrem and Safiye, Kösem too expected that Ayşe would be an obedient, helpful & easily controlled by her. I think during the very first episode of season 2, there would be a rivalry and conflict between Ayşe and Kösem, how Ayşe said that she wished to support Murad and keep him away from the influence of his mother in ruling the state. Ayşe also said that she refused to follow every Kosem's orders and be obedient to her. Too bad this rivalry concept got thrown out and replaced with her fake rivalry with Farya as Mahidevran 2.0. Ayse's story here would be mainly fanon:

After Kösem's ten years regency, Murad became the sultan officially (I mean, the time when Murad was able to govern the state independently), but with Kösem's influence in the government, viziers & jannisaries, they were already familiar and support her and the people greatly trust her. Murad was struggling to gain the trust and recognition from his people. Everyone (including viziers and jannisaries) still doubted this young sultan's capability to rule, they always compared him to Kösem. Murad wanted to step out from his mother's shadow, he tried to limit Kosem's power and influence, he wanted his mother as valide sultan back to her initial duty, managing the harem. As loyal spouse and his most beloved woman, Ayşe supported Murad and helped him to be able to rule independently by trying to dispel and keep him away from his mother's influence, she also managed to seek the support from the people including some viziers. Ayşe chose to be a good wife and queen/haseki who supported her spouse the sultan in government rather than being used and controlled by his mother. Thus her conflict with Kösem sultan began. Besides her conflict with Kösem, Ayşe also had her own problem, she was struggling to provide Murad a healthy sehzade who would have his chance to survive adulthood and become the heir for Murad's throne. Murad's relationship with his mother was gradually strained. Seeing her son's insubordination to her, Kösem decided to get rid of Ayşe as the mastermind of the destruction of their family relationships. Their rivalry was fierce until Murad's death came. Ayşe who had lost her greatest support (and love) Murad and lost her sehzade who could be made an heir, lost her power, influence and purpose completely. She was immediately removed by Kösem and sent away to live in the Old Palace.

Turhan Hatice Sultan:

Her mother-in-law was also Kösem sultan and she was the spouse of Ibrahim I. Turhan had learned all the tales of the powerful sultana in Ottoman and had her own ambition. She saw Kösem as her role model and at the same time she wanted to be like her. Kösem still expected her to be easily controlled and obedient to her but Turhan thought that being obedient and passive won't make her a powerful figure. She found that to fight her mother-in-law, she had to get her sultan's support. Observing her situation and circumstance, getting the support from her spouse seemed difficult since Ibrahim had numerous gozde that he loved, he even appointed his eight gozde (including her) as his haseki. Turhan could become the Baş Haseki had been a lucky one for her since she had Ibrahim's oldest sehzade Mehmed. The odds of getting support from her spouse are getting smaller as he brought new gozde again and this gozde became his legal wife (Telli Humaşah). Thus, rather than wage an open war to Kösem, she decided to gain the trust for her. By being the closest person to Kösem, she could observe everything, from how Kösem gains her supports to find a chance to overthrow her. During this time, Turhan managed to gain the trust of viziers, but Kösem still had the most influence in jannisaries. Turhan also tried her best to secure her son and protect him as the next heir after Ibrahim's death. When Ibrahim died, Mehmed the oldest sehzade succeeded him. But as long as Kösem still alive, her struggle was not over yet. Kösem who had many experience as regent thought that inexperienced Turhan wasn't competent enough to rule the state, Kösem was preventing her to be in charge of state affairs. Turhan disagreed since she felt entitled as the mother of Mehmed IV. Kösem later went to far by attempting to remove Mehmed and replaced him with sehzade Suleyman (the son of supposedly more obedient haseki Saliha Dilasub). Driven by her will to protect her son's life, Turhan decided to get rid Kösem completely and her men successfully murdered her. Eventually, Turhan became regent and rule the state together with her son. My fanon is that the previous haseki sultan Ayşe wanted have her revenge with Kösem, so she temporarily helped Turhan behind the scene.

Summary:

Many young sultana during their time as queen consort (haseki) had strained relationship with her mother-in-law, the queen dowager (valide sultan), they had similar ambitions but they had their different motivation and situation.

In Nurbanu's case, she was a favorite of Selim II during his sehzade years. There was sehzade Beyazid as threat who challenged Selim's way to be the heir. Being supportive to her spouse, Nurbanu made sure that Selim will success it. Nurbanu's main focused was how Selim would take the throne.

In Kösem's case, she initially was driven by revenge. But later when she found that Ahmed I her spouse's life was also in danger, she fought to protect him. Safiye's failed attempt to control Ahmed drove her to led a coup d'etat. Ahmed with the help of Kösem successfully weakened Safiye's power and influence. But not long after that, Ahmed died and Kösem lost her greatest support. Kösem became alone surrounded with many dangerous snakes especially Safiye and Halime, though in the end she was able to get rid of them.

In Ayse's case, Murad became a sultan who just been deemed worthy to rule by his own. Ayşe helped Murad to gain the trust and to be recognized by his people, she wanted him to get out from Kösem's shadow. Ayşe also had another burden since Murad didn't have an apparent heir yet. In the end Murad died without heir and his brother Ibrahim was the one who succeeded him. Ayşe lost her position and had to spend her life in the Old Palace according to the custom.

In Turhan's case and during her time, Ibrahim I had his eight harem girls as the haseki. Turhan happened to bore him the oldest sehzade Mehmed thus she became the Baş haseki. Turhan had to face her many harem rivals including the greatest threat who was Telli Humaşah, the girl Ibrahim brought and became his legal wife. Turhan was not really loved by Ibrahim (as she was not his most favorite). After Ibrahim's death, Turhan had her power struggle with Kösem sultan. She wanted to be regent ruling independently but her reign always overshadowed by Kösem. Their conflict became worse when Kösem wanted to get rid of Turhan's son and replaced him with her other grandson, thus leading to Kosem's death by Turhan's men hands.

 TL;DR

All had their conflict with their MiLs but Nurbanu was haseki of sehzade whereas Kösem, Ayşe and Turhan were haseki of sultans. All supposedly outlived their MiL but canon MYK!Ayşe died before Kösem. Although Kösem had her conflict with her actual MiL Handan, her main nemesis was Safiye sultan, her MiL's MiL (or should I say grandmother-in-law). Nurbanu's spouse Selim I outlived his mother but Ahmed I (Kosem's spouse), Murad IV (Ayse's spouse) and Ibrahim I (Turhan's spouse) died before their mothers (and grandmother in Ahmed's case). Nurbanu, Kösem and Turhan had their surviving sons took his fathers' throne whereas Ayşe didn't. Nurbanu, Kösem and Ayşe were loved and greatly supported by their spouses whereas Turhan was not really (but canon-MYK!Ayşe instead was greatly abused and hated by him), Ibrahim might loved Turhan but she was not his most beloved one. Nurbanu, Kösem and Turhan succeeded in becoming valide sultan and became the most powerful sultana in their respective era whereas only Ayşe who couldn’t make it since she didn’t have a sehzade (the prince), the most important asset for every women as royals.

Conclusion:

Powerful and ambitious women in MY and MYK always expect their daughters-in-law to be the obedient and easily-controlled. Unbeknownst for them, they became the role models of their younger generations. Thus, instead having the obedient DiL, they got their own reflection: the DiL that exactly the same with their younger selves. These DiL won’t easily submit to them just like themselves in their younger days.

Also I wonder when Turhan’s hair color was mentioned as blonde, There is no popular culture that show Turhan with blonde hair. Mahpeyker: Kösem Sultan’s Turhan was brunette and  Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem‘s Turhan is dark haired (likely black). I���m sorry with my shitty bad quality editing but I want my Turhan’s blonde XD, I’m not expert.

[ottomanladies]

Hello, good morning here, I am new in this place and the truth is that I like the blog, I wanted to ask something, you know an article about the life of Şehzade Mehmed, the son of Sultan Soliman and Hurrem. I also want to know the life of Mahidevran Hatun. They have a book or article. Thanks a lot.

Thank you for liking my blog.

An article... like an essay? I don't think there are essays about Mehmed, unfortunately. What I know about him I took from Empress of the East and The Imperial Harem by Leslie Peirce. About Mahidevran as well, she's the subject of a sub-chapter in The Imperial Harem that details her life quite nicely, but she also features in Empress of the East.

[ottomanladies]

ah! And one more question if it is not a nuisance, is it true that Prince Mehmet married his cousin Esmehan, daughter of Shahrazad?

Thank you very much.

No, it is not true. I don’t know where this belief comes from but I couldn’t find it anywhere except for here on tumblr

[ottomanladies]

What would’ve happened if Humashah (Hurrem’s granddaughter, Mehmed’s daughter) had been born a boy? What would his life have been like? Would he have been as spoiled as Humashah was?

I honestly have no idea. Could he have taken his father's place in the race to the throne? When Süleyman died, Hümaşah was in her early twenties; an adult, yes, but Selim had more experience (he also had gone to war with his father; would this grandson have accompanied Süleyman in his last campaigns if he was particularly beloved?). Also, would Selim have stood by if this grandson had been popular with the army, for example?

I believe that Süleyman would have granted him a province during his lifetime (like he did with Bayezid's sons), but I have no idea what would have happened after his death. If Selim had perceived him as a threat, even if he was his nephew, he could have ordered his execution on his accession (though his accession was troubled so maybe it wouldn't have been wise to do it)

[ottomanladies]

Could it be possible that Mihrimah was born on 21 March but was born prematurely. Anne Boleyn got pregnant only two months after Elizabeths birth who says Hurrem couldn't.

Okay, this is not about the speed with which a woman can conceive (which can be accelerated by not breastfeeding, for example) but that there is no time between Mehmed’s birth and March 21st for a baby to be conceived and be safely delivered.

Mehmed was born in fall 1521, certainly before November 30th because that’s when the Islamic year of 927 ended. Let’s say he was born in the middle of October: Süleyman - away on a campaign - returned to Istanbul at the end of this month, let’s say Hürrem conceived right at the beginning of November. It’s 4 months with March. 4-month babies do not survive birth. Hürrem would have miscarried, had she gone into labour in March. 

Also, according to Peirce, Süleyman was absent on the day of Mihrimah’s birth as well, which means it must have happened between June 1522 (per Öztuna) and February 1523. Fall 1522 seems to be the right period. 

[ottomanladies]

I know that this is probably a hard question to answer but if Mehmed has lived do you think he would have killed his brothers? I mean, he was raised pretty closely to them unlike Mustafa. I know that Suleiman and Hurrem favored him but do you think that if Mehmed has ascended to the throne during Hurrem’s lifetime that she would have been able to stop him from killing Selim and Bayezid? Would Cihangir even have to be killed because his physical disabilities pretty much guaranteed that he never would have been able to be sultan? Would Mihrimah have been able to do anything?

I wish I could give an answer to this but I cannot for two reasons: a) Mehmed is kind of a non-entity, we don't know much about his personality other than he was highly educated and "beloved by all", and b) I literally have no elements to make an educated guess. It's basically impossible.

Moreover, it is even more difficult to talk about Hürrem's children because, for the first time in history, candidates to the throne have full-blooded brothers. Unfortunately, we can't even apply later cases because Nurbanu doesn't seem to have had more than one son, Safiye's second-born son died before Mehmed III's accession, Handan's had too died before Ahmed I's accession. The first time we have alive full brothers to the sultan is during Murad IV's reign, and he executed them. Kösem couldn't do anything to stop it.

Of course Murad IV had a very distinct personality which none of Hürrem's sons had, as far as we know. Of course becoming the sultan could have changed everything but... it is basically impossible to know.

[ottomanladies]

Do we have any concrete sense of a birth year for Hurrem's son, Abdullah? I keep stumbling onto claims that he was possibly the twin of Mihrimah, but the sources to back it up seem spotty at best.

Honestly I have never seen anyone claim that Abdullah was Mihrimah’s twin. I’ve seen claims that he was Mahidevran’s son which.... doesn’t make any sense.

Anyway, this is what Peirce says about him in Empress of the East:

“If Mehmed and Mihrumah were conceived in the interstices between campaigns, Selim and Abdullah, their next children, were honeymoon babies. Selim was born in May 1524 and Abdullah probably sometime in 1525 or early 1526 (his precise birth date is not known).”

Öztuna claims that Abdullah was born in 1522 but if Mihrimah was born in fall 1522 and Mehmed was born in late 1521, there really is no time for him to be born in that year. 

I personally stand by Peirce. Biologically, there really is no time for Abdullah to be born in 1522 between Mehmed and Mihrimah (which is where Öztuna puts him)

[ottomanladies]

Can you list some information about Abdulmecid I’s children with some information about them just like you did for Ahmed III harem + children.

Sorry for the long wait but... the guy had 42 children

Mevhibe Sultan (1840-1841), with Hoşyar Kadın: lived for only 8 months, was buried in the Hamidiye Mausoleum

Sultan V. Murad Han (1840-1904), with Şevkefza Valide Sultan: 33rd Ottoman sultan, he reigned for only 93 days, after which he was deposed on the grounds of "perpetual insanity"

Naime Sultan (1840-1843), with Tirimüjgan Kadın: Abdülhamid II's elder sister, she died of smallpox

Fatma Sultan (1840-1884), with Gülcemal Kadın: Mehmed V's eldest sister and Murad V's favourite sister. She had two husbands: Dâmâd'Alî Gaalib Paşa and Dâmâd Mehmed Nûrî Paşa, which she outlived. Her three children died in infancy and she spent the last years of her life confined in her villa in Istanbul because she had tried to reinstate Murad V on the throne. She died at the age of 44 and was buried in Murad V's mausoleum.

Behiye Sultan (1841-1847), mother unknown: she died at the age of 6 and was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan. Her mother was "Her Highness, the Second Ikbal"

Neyyire Sultan (1841-1843), with Şayeste Hanım: she died at the age of 3 and was buried in the Nurosmaniye Mosque.

Refia Sultan (1842-1880), with Gülcemal Kadın: Mehmed V's elder sister. She was married to Dâmâd Mahmûd Edham Paşâ and had a daughter with him. Refia was extremely educated, like her sisters, as her father had insisted for them to be educated both in traditional and western subjects. Contrary to her younger sister Cemile, whom her father constantly lauded, Refia was a true spendthrift and her debts were staggering for just one person.

Hatice Sultan (1842-1842), with Gülcemal Kadın

Sultan II. Abdülhamid Han (1842-1918), with Tirimüjgan Kadın: 34th Ottoman Sultan, he was deposed by the Young Turks in 1909 and exiled to Thessalonika. None of his sons would ascend the throne.

Aliye Sultan (1842-1845), with Şevkefza Valide Sultan: younger sister of Murad V, she was 2 when she died and was buried in the New Mosque

Mehmed Ziyaeddin Efendi (1842-1845), with Nesrin Hanım:

Cemile Sultan (1843-1915), with Düzdidil Hanım: her mother died when she was 3, so she was raised by Rahime Perestu, future Valide Sultan. She was therefore very close to her older brother Abdülhamid II, who had been raised by Rahime Perestu as well. She married Dâmâd Mahmûd Celaleddîn Paşa in 1858, when she was fifteen. Her husband was the second son of Dâmâd Ahmed Fethî Paşa (husband of Mahmud II's daughter, Atiye Sultan) from his first wife. Fındıklı Palace was built for them. Together they had 6 children: Fethiye Hanım-Sultân (1859 - 1887), Sultân-zâde Besim Beyefendi (died at the age of 2), Sultân-zâde Sâkıb Beyefendi (1864 - 1897), Sultân-zâde Mehmed Mahmûd Celâleddîn Beyefendi (1864 - 1916), 'Ayşe Şıdıka Hanım-Sultân (1875 - 1937?), Fatma Hanım-Sultân (1879 - 1890)

Sultan V. Mehmed Reşad Han (1844-1918), with Gülcemal Kadın: 35th Ottoman Sultan, he was enthroned by the Young Turks after the deposition of Abdülhamid II and was the last sultan to die in office.

Münire Sultan (1844-1862), with Verdicenan Kadın: she firstly married the son of the Egyptian Khedive, İbrahim İlhami Paşa, and the costly wedding ceremony attracted a lot of criticism because the Imperial Army had just been defeated in Montenegro. The marriage lasted only two years, as İbrahim İlhami Paşa died at only 24 years old. She therefore married Lieutenant General Dâmâd İbrahim Paşa, with whom she had a son: Sultân-zâde 'Alâeddîn Beyefendi (1861 - 1915?). She was buried in the mausoleum of her great-grandmother, Nakşıdil Valide Sultan.

Samiye Sultan (1845-1845), mother unknown: she was buried in the New Mosque. Her mother had been listed as "Her Highness, the Third Kadinefendi"

Ahmed Efendi (1846-1846), with Nükhetseza Hanım: he was buried in the New Mosque inside the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Fatma Nazime Sultan (1847-1847), mother unknown: she was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Sabiha Sultan (1848-1849), with Mehtab Kadın: she was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Mehmed Abid Efendi (1848-1848), with Tirimüjgan Kadın: he was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Ahmed Kemaleddin Efendi (1848-1905), with Verdicenan Kadın: he was a supporter of Murad V's rights to the throne and was in a bad relationship with her other older brother, Abdulhamid II. He married his only consort, Fatma Sezâ-dil Hanımefendi, in 1876, and had two daughters with her: Atiyetullah Sultan (1878-1878) and Münire Sultan (1880-1939). His daughter married Dâmâd Mehmed Sâlih Paşa in 1907 and had a son, Sultân-zâde Ahmed Kemâleddîn (Keredin) Beyefendi (1908-1987), clearly named after her father.

Atiyetullah Efendi (?-?)

Mehmed Fuad Efendi (died in infancy), with Nergizu Hanım: he was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Behice Sultan (1848-1876), with Nesrin Hanım: she lost her mother at the age of 3 and contracted tuberculosis in childhood. She lived secluded all her life and her sisters Refia and Seniha always sent her letters to cheer her up, even though they knew that Behice's illness had reached the final stage by the time she had turned 20. In her letters, Behice came across as frustrated, jealous of her sisters' freedom and extremely sensitive. Her dowry had been prepared by her father but her illness always prevented her from getting married, even though that was her dream. Finally, her uncle Abdülaziz consented, and Behice married Dâmâd Halil Hamîd Beyefendi on 16 November 1876. Unfortunately, the princess died just 20 days later at the age of 28. She was buried in the mausoleum of Münire Sultan.

Mehmed Burhaneddin Efendi (1849-1876), with Nükhetseza Hanım: he was Abdülhamîd II's favourite brother, who also named a warship after him. He had two consorts: Mest-i Niyâz Hanımefendi and Şâd-rûy Hanımefendi. From his first consort, he had an unnamed daughter (1876? -1890?) and Ibrahim Tevfik Efendi (1874-1931). He was buried in the mausoleum of his father Abdülmecid

Rukiye Sultan (1850-1850), with Gülcemal Kadın:

Mukbile Sultan (1850-1850), mother unknown: buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan, her mother had been listed as "Her Highness, the Fourth Ikbal"

Mehmed Vamık Efendi (1850-1850), mother unknown: buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Nizameddin Efendi (1850-1853), with Nesrin Hanım: twin of Bahaeddin Efendi, he was buried in the mausoleum of Murad V

Bahaeddin Efendi (1850-1852), with Nesrin Hanım: twin of Nizameddin Efendi, he was buried in the mausoleum of Refia Sultan

Ahmed Nureddin Efendi (1852-1885), with Mehtab Kadın: he had two consorts, Nazlı Emşâl Hanımefendi and an unnamed one, but no children. He died at the age of 33 and was buried in the mausoleum of Murad V

Mehmed Rüşdü Efendi (1852-1852), with Ceylanyar Hanım: buried in the Hamidiye Tomb.

Osman Safiyeddin Efendi (1852-1855), with Ayşe Serfiraz Hanım: buried in the mausoleum of Abdülmecid I

Seniha Sultan (1853-1931), with Nalandil Hanım: she married Dâmâd Âsaf Mahmûd Celaleddîn Paşa (the son of Dâmâd Halil Rifat Paşa after the death of Saliha Sultan, daughter of Mahmud II) in 1877. Celaleddîn Paşa wasn't particularly trusted by Abdülhamid II but was nevertheless appointed vizier. Seniha and her husband participated in the Ali Suavi Incident, actually a conspiracy to dethrone Abdulhamid II and re-instate Murad V, the failure of which - among other things - prompted Celaleddîn Paşa to leave the Ottoman empire and settle in Bruxelles. Together, they had two sons: Sultân-zâde Mehmed Sabâhaddîn Beyefendi (1877-1948) and Sultân-zâde Ahmed Lutfullâh Beyfendi (1880-1973). Her son Sabâhaddîn was a vocal critic of Abdülhamid II's regime and was actually the leader of a faction inside the Young Turks movement which advocated some of the same liberal principles of the CUP but instead favoured administrative decentralization and European assistance. At the time of the Dynasty's exile from Turkey, Seniha Sultan was the eldest princess alive. She lived with Mehmed VI in Sanremo until his death, then moved to Nice, where the last Caliph Abdülmecid II had settled down but was not in favour because she was part of the "Mecid branch" of the family. She spent her last years bedridden in a room inside the caliph's villa and Nice and died there in 1931. She was buried in the Sultan Selim Mosque in Damascus.

Abdullah Efendi (1853-1853), with Şayeste Hanım: stillborn

Mehmed Abdüssamed Efendi (1853-1855), with Nalandil Hanım: buried in the mausoleum of his father

Zekiye Sultan (1855-1856), with Gülistu Kadın: twin of Fehime Sultan, was buried in the mausoleum of Münîre Sultân

Fehime Sultan (1855-1856), with Gülistu Kadın: twin of Fehime Sultan, was buried in the mausoleum of Münîre Sultân

Mediha Sultan (1856-1928), with Gülistu Kadın: elder sister of Mehmed VI, she fell in love with the son of Sâmi Paşa and started corresponding with him. When Abdülhamid II found out, he sent Necib Bey at the embassy in Paris. Mediha was devastated: she would not drink, eat or sleep. Her step-mother Verdicenan asked Rahime Perestu Valide Sultan's help, and together they were able to convince Abdülhamid to let the princess marry Necib Bey, which she did in 1879. Mediha had a son with him, Sultân-zâde 'Abdurrahmân Sâmî Beyefendi (1880-1961), but her happiness was short-lived: her husband died in 1885 at the age of 29. In 1886, she married her second husband, Dâmâd Mehmed Ferîd Paşa, but had no children with him.

Naile Sultan (1856-1882), with Şayeste Hanım: she married Dâmâd Çerkes Kabasakâl Mehmed Paşa who, according to Ayşe Osmanoğlu, was a brother of Abdülhamid II's consort Bidar Kadın. They had no children. She was buried in the mausoleum of Murad V

Bedia Sultan (1857-1858), with Ayşe Serfiraz Hanım: she was buried in the mausoleum of  Münîre Sultân.

Selim Süleyman Efendi (1860-1909), with Ayşe Serfiraz Hanım: he had 5 consorts:  Filiz-san Hanımefendi, Emîne Câvidân Hanımefendi, Fatma ikbâl Hanımefendi, 'Ayşe Tarz-ı ter (Tarz-ender) Hanımefendi and Zât-ı Melek Hanımefendi. His children were: Mehmed 'Abdülhalîm Efendi (1894-1926), Emine Naciye Sultan (1896-1961), and Damad Mehmed Şerefeddin Efendi (1904-1966)

Sultan VI. Mehmed Vahideddin Han (1861-1926), with Gülistu Kadın: last sultan of the Ottoman Empire, he was deposed in 1922 when the Republic of Turkey was proclaimed and exiled in 1924. He died in Sanremo, Italy

[ottomanladies]

Who is the dearest grandchild of Sultan Suleiman?

There is literally no way to know. 

Both Hümâ-Şâh and Ayşe Hümâ-Şâh lived in Istanbul so they would have had more chances to see Süleyman, who was quite the family man... but I could not find information about their relationships, other that they were very cherished and beloved by their grandparents.

[ottomanladies]

We know that the institution of regency wasn’t clearly established in the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century, but what would have happened if for example Suleyman died early and Mustafa would become sultan as a kid, Hafsa or Mahidevran would have become regent? Was it necessary for the regent to be from the royal family)

The only child sultan before the 17th century was Mehmed II (his first reign: 1444-1446) and he didn’t have official regents but there was a struggle between his royal tutor and Grand Vizier Çandarlı Halil Paşa for power. 

What is interesting is that his mother Hüma Hatun was still alive but somehow did not play an important role (she would die in 1449, thus not seeing his second reign)

So... I think that had Süleyman I died during Mustafa’s childhood, Grand Vizier Pargali Ibrahim Paşa would have assumed the regency. There was not a precedent, after all, and the royal mother was not considered “custodian of the dynasty” yet and she did not have political power yet.

[ottomanladies]

Hi, I have a question in the Ottoman Empire, what were the mourning costumes really like? Because in Magnificent Century they are black but I have read that they were really white because that's how mourning was for Muslims. Do you know something about it?

The wore black at funerals... or when they were in mourning, because not all sultans attended funerals.

When Bayezid II’s corpse arrived in Istanbul, Selim I wore black to welcome him in the city. Süleyman I wore black for longer than usual after the death of his son Mehmed: “They say that the Grand Turk has exhibited his sorrow and appeared in public dressed in black, to signal his pain,” (Luigi Bassano). Murad III wore black even before his mother’s death and then again when he led the funeral procession.

After the Tanzimat reforms, high state officials attended imperial funerals in their military uniforms except for the damads of the empire, who had to wear normal clothes, for some reason. 

In conclusion, black was the colour of mourning in the Ottoman empire.

[ottomanladies]

Hi ! If you don't mind of course can you please tell us more about the wives and the children of Kanuni Suleiman's sons : Mehmed,Beyazid and Mustafa ?

Hi! Sure. I have already talked about them but I’ll summarise everything in one post. 

Mustafa:

His only known concubine is a crimean lady, who may have been born in 1525, and who later married Pertev Mehmed Paşa, according to Öztuna. (according to Alderson, Pertev Mehmed Paşa married Şehzâde Mehmed’s former concubine instead). His known children are:

Şehzâde Mehmed: drowned in Bursa on 10 September 1553 at 7 years old

ŞehzâdeAhmed: died in 1552.

Şah Sultan: married Dâmâd ‘Abdülkerîm Ağa on the same day Selim’s daughters got married, 1 August 1562. He was the Janissaries Ağa up until 1564. He supposedly died in or around 1580. Şah Sultan died on 2 October 1577, at 27 years old. Alderson gives this date of death to an unnamed daughter who was married to one Mahmud, without titles.

Nergis-Şah Sultan: born in 1536, she married Dâmâd Cenâbî Ahmed Paşa who died in 1562. He was Governor of Kütahya for 20 years.  

Mehmed: 

He seems to have had only one concubine, the mother of Hümâ-Şâh Sultân, who died after 1570. She lived in the Old Palace after his death.

Hümâ-Şâh Sultân: born in 1543, maybe in presence of her grandmother Hürrem. She was married three times, was the mother of several children, and died around 1582. She was buried next to her father, in the Şehzâde Mosque. (more details here)

Bayezid:

Nothing is known about his consorts, who must have been several considering that he fatheredseveral children. According to Shayk Qutb al-Din al-Nahwrali, who actually met Bayezid and his children, they all had different mothers except for Osman and Mahmud, who were full brothers.

Şehzade Orhan: eldest child of Bayezid, and “strikingly handsome”. He was executed on 25 september 1561, with his father. One of his companions and teachers was Abdhurrahman El-Gubari. His Lala was Çandarlızade Halil Bey. He was governor of  Çorum in 1558-9

Şehzade Osman

Şehzade Mahmud: executed on 25 September 1561

Şehzade Abdullah: executed on 25 September 1561

Şehzade Mehmed: executed on 25 September 1561

Şehzade Murad

unnamed infant son executed in Bursa after his father’s death

It could be that Osman and Murad had died before, since they’re not mentioned in various accounts of Bayezid’s execution.

daughters:

Mihrimah Sultan: eldest daughter, she was 11 years old in 1558. She married Dâmâd Muzaffer Paşa, who died in 1593. He was Governor of Bağdâd, Governor of Şehr-i Zor, Governor of Kıbrıs, and he was appointed Governor of Lûristân 1592, a year before his death.

Hatice Sultan: she was 8 years old in 1558, nothing else is known about her.

Ayşe Sultan: married Dâmâd Eretnaoğlu Hoca ‘Alî Paşa and had a son, Sultanzade Mehmed Bey

Hanzade Sultan: no information.

[ottomanladies]

Hi, I was wondering, do you think that if Sehzade Mehmet had lived Suleyman would have chosen him to succed him or maybe he would end up having a more tragic end like his brothers? And did Cihangir had any chance at being the next Sultan despite his back?

Hi! This is such a difficult question and it involves a great deal of speculation.

Mehmed was apparently appreciated by people even though his mother was not. Ambassador Trevisano described him as "loved by anyone who had known him [...] not only for his looks but for his manners as well..."

He had been impeccably educated: he could speak several languages (even some Italian, as he said in one letter to his father that he was reading Menavino's works), he had been trained in the military arts, politics, religion, history etc etc, and he had also participated to at least two campaingns next to his father and Selim.

He really seemed like the golden son.

I don’t think that he would have gone down like Mustafa, to be honest. First of all, I don't think the janissaries would have rallied behind Mehmed. Secondly, Hürrem was smart and knew her husband very well; she would have never allowed her own son to make Mustafa's mistakes. She was in Istanbul with Süleyman, she saw the effect that his huge popularity had on her husband; her children were not to make the same mistakes.

I think Mehmed would have behaved like Selim: obeying his father in everything he did, staying humble, never even thinking about the throne or Süleyman's successor. I just can't imagine him showing any hubris, from the descriptions we have. I think he, like his mother, understood his father very well since he had actually lived with him under the same roof, and knew what to say and what to do.

In the end, I think Mustafa's biggest disadvantage was that he had not actually spent a lot of time with Süleyman and this impacted on the way he acted. He never lived in Topkapi Palace like Hürrem's sons, he never actually had to deal with him every single day. The fact that he kinda enjoyed the popularity he had was his sort of way to get the upper hand?

"It was probably no secret that Mustafa was building support for himself. He had requested and received formal assurance from the governor of Erzurum, Ottoman bastion in northeastern Anatolia, that he would side with the prince at the moment of Suleyman’s death, when the brothers would openly vie for the succession. Mustafa had also exchanged correspondence with the Venetian government (and perhaps other powers), probably to the same effect." -- Peirce, Leslie. Empress of the East: How a European Slave Girl Became Queen of the Ottoman Empire

Hürrem's sons, on the other hand, had always been in Istanbul, they were closer to the sultan than him. Obviously Süleyman thought highly of him (he firstly didn't believe Rustem's report that Mustafa was about to rebel) but it was different: he was not part of his nuclear family and he was too popular for his own good.

I really think that, had Mehmed survived, he would have been the designated heir. Not officially, of course, but I think that Süleyman would have had a much clearer idea of who was supposed to succeed him. 

(And I wonder what he would have told Cihangir in 1553, had Mehmed been alive. He notoriously told him that Mustafa would succeed him and that he would kill them all, but what if it had been Mehmed he was talking about? What would have happened? Did Süleyman think that he would have spared his own brothers? Would he have told him not to do that? Would the kafes have been introduced earlier?)

As for your second question, apparently the Venetians expected Cihangir to take up a provincial post but that did not happen. According to Navagero in February 1553, Cihangir still hoped that he could succeed his father but he also understood that nobody would have backed him up because of his disability:

“God give you a long life, Your Majesty, but I still have hope to be Sultan; and when this doesn’t happen, whoever the new Sultan is, I won’t be sad, because nobody can see me as a threat.”

[ottomanladies]

do you think mahidevran had anything to do with mehmed's death

Absolutely not. He died of some contagious disease. Plague, according to the Manisa annals:

“At the start of the month of Sha`ban in the year 950, on the day when the agha who came bringing glad tidings of the conquest of Usturgun-Belgrade and many other fortresses arrived [in Manisa] and a fireworks celebration ensued, the fortune-blessed prince Sultan Mehmed fell ill. He took to his bed for six days. During the night before the seventh he died.”

and

“Now it was during the spring of this year that the plague appeared, and many families were consumed by the earth.”

[ottomanladies]

hello! you do extremely well research congratulations! i enjoyed your post about sehzade beyazid in particular! do you know what happened to his 4 daughters? did they marry had children e.t.c? also the same about sehzade mustafa did he have any daughters that reached adulthood and also did he marry himself before his execution?

Hello! Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

I’ve found a recent biography of Suleyman (Yılmaz Öztuna - Kanuni Sultan Süleyman) which talks about the families of his children as well. I haven’t had the opportunity to check it out well, except for the fact he calls Mahidevran “Mahidevran Haseki”…. though he calls Hurrem “Hurrem Haseki Sultan” so I don’t know. You’d think a recent work means the author used new foundings for his book so let’s see what he says:

Mihrimah Sultan: married Dâmâd Muzaffer Paşa, who died in 1593. He was Governor of Bağdâd, Governor of Şehr-i Zor, Governor of Kıbrıs, and he was appointed Governor of Lûristân 1592, a year before his death.

Hatice Sultan: no information

Ayşe Sultan: married Dâmâd Eretnaoğlu Hoca ‘Alî Paşa and had a son, Sultanzade Mehmed Bey

Hanzade Sultan: no information

I doubt Mustafa got married before he died. He was a prince and in the 16th century princes didn’t contract marriages anymore, only slave concubines. Yılmaz Öztuna says his concubine was one Fulane Hatun, a Crimean slave who was born in 1525 (he says Mehmed’s concubine was called Fulane as well, though, so I don’t know. Of course concubines with the same names exist but it seems fishy to me; he also says that one of Suleyman’s concubines was called Fulane and one daughter of his as well!! Just how many Fulanes were there in that family?). His children were: 

Mehmed: drowned in Bursa on 10 September 1553 at 7 years old

Ahmed: died in 1552.

Şah Sultan: married Dâmâd ‘Abdülkerîm Ağa on the same day Selim’s daughters got married, 1 August 1562. He was the Janissaries Ağa up until 1564. He supposedly died in or around 1580. Şah Sultan died on 2 October 1577, at 27 years old. Alderson gives this date of death to an unnamed daughter who was married to one Mahmud, without titles.

Nergis-Şah Sultan: born in 1536, she married Dâmâd Cenâbî Ahmed Paşa who died in 1562. He was Governor of Kütahya for 20 years.     

On the other hand, Alderson only lists three children (he also wrote his book in 1956, though) 

Mehmed (or Murad), executed in October 1553

Şah Sultan, who was married to one Hasan Ağa

an unnamed daughter, who died on 2 October 1577, married to one Mahmud

I don’t know what Yılmaz Öztuna’s sources are because his book has no notes section (or at least, my copy doesn’t?). I’ve tried to look on the internet for some confirmation/more info from other historians but I couldn’t find anything. Especially about the princesses, who obviously weren’t executed with their fathers. They seem like ghosts.

I’d like to point out something before I post this ask. I’ve seen people claim on the internet that Mustafa’s concubines (or Bayezid’s) were called X Haseki or X Haseki Sultan but those are titles reserved for the sultan’s concubines. Princes didn’t have Haseki Sultans. Nurbanu was a Hatun until Selim elevated her to the Haseki Sultan status after he succeeded his father (maybe when he married her?)